- [Announcer] "The Songwriters" is supported in part by the Nashville Convention and Visitors Corporation, Rusty and Kacie Gaston, the Mike Curb Foundation, SESAC, BMI, and ASCAP, Rich and Charlotte Hallworth, Kerry O'Neil and Carla Wallace.

Additional support is provided by: (bright piano music) ♪ ♪ (bright piano music continues) ♪ ♪ (mellow guitar music) ♪ ♪ (mellow guitar music continues) ♪ ♪ (mellow guitar music continues) ♪ ♪ - Welcome to "The Songwriters."

I'm Ken Paulson, and today is a special edition of "The Songwriters."

Today, we're gonna explore and celebrate the music of John Prine with our very special guest.

She is the president of Oh Boy Records and was John's wife and partner in all things, and it's a delight to welcome Fiona Prine.

- Thank you, Ken.

It's wonderful to be here.

- I also wanna mention that Fiona is a member of the Nashville Songwriters Hall of Fame board, as I am, and this television show is a big part of what we do.

And it's making sure that generations of all sorts understand the art of songwriting.

And we are so honored to be able to talk regularly with people who have contributed to the process, the songs that have made America what it is, and John Prine was an exceptional example of that.

I know that... You know, I know John's work.

I have to say, this was one of the happiest days of my life.

I went to the local record store and bought this record way back in 1971, and it was life-changing.

And even now, after I've amassed thousands of LPs, it's not only a favorite, but I look at this and it's like, the song's on here!

"Hello In There," "Sam Stone," "Paradise," "Illegal Smile," "Donald and Lydia."

The man invented Americana music in some ways and he did it with heart and wit.

And he had a whole career before he met you.

- [Fiona] Yes!

- But I will say as an observer, his music got really rich after he met you.

And I have to believe that you played a role in creating an environment where he came back.

John Prine came back.

Can you talk a little bit about meeting John?

Was that a long time ago?

- That was a long time ago.

That was back in 1988.

I was working in the industry in Dublin, in recording studios, and John came to open one of the biggest venues in Dublin at that time and still.

So my company was involved in that production.

And I had seen John when I was 17 years old.

- [Ken] Wow!

- Yeah.

10 years previously.

- Okay.

- And left that show with probably just a little taste of what I understood to be songwriting.

He was very different from a lot of the other artists that I was listening to at that time.

So we met in 1988 at that event, and struck up an immediate friendship based really on who we were as human beings.

John had a great affinity for family, loved Ireland, and I think he told me later he'd never met anyone quite like me.

(laughs) So I'm not sure entirely what he meant by that.

(Ken laughs) But we did strike up a meaningful relationship, I think is the best way to describe it, a friendship.

And we wrote letters back in those days.

There were long telephone calls.

We did see each other periodically over the next two or three years.

And then in 1991, I think both of us recognized that this was a relationship.

And so we kind of moved into the next stage, if you like.

- The next stage for John Prine musically was really remarkable.

I'm not sure you would claim to be his muse, but this is a man who had struggled.

His music, he had a diehard fan base and he had the spirit to do whatever he wanted.

A record of Rockabilly in the late '70s was not a calculated commercial move.

And then he put out his own records, many of which were brilliant, but not as widely played.

And although during that period, he had a pretty good career as a hit Country songwriter, which I'm sure- - Yeah, an accidental hit Country songwriter, I think.

- [Ken] Absolutely.

- Yeah!

- And then, but then along comes "Jesus: The Missing Years."

- [Fiona] Yes!

- Do you remember John's reaction to the sudden adulation and he was back on top?

Did he have an emotional reaction to it?

- He did!

He was delighted.

He was very happy.

One of the things that I think was always true about John was that he believed in his own songwriting.

Which, when I first met him, I find that quite surprising.

And maybe that's part of being Irish.

We don't necessarily claim brilliance for ourselves.

Others might call us brilliant or geniuses.

But John believed in his own writing.

That was the one thing that he knew he could do and he could do well.

So I think to get that recognition from the industry, especially getting that Grammy for this record, really thrilled him and gave him the confidence to move forward.

- What I'd like to do now is go back to 2004.

This was shot at a studio in Nashville.

This was a show called "Speaking Freely," which was conversations with artists about how free speech enhanced their work and John was full of free speech.

And this is provided to us by the folks who produced that then at Freedom Forum, and we're grateful for them for allowing us to show this long-lost film.

From 19- Excuse me.

From 19, yeah.

(laughs) I am from the 1900s.

The show is from 2004.

Our thanks to the Freedom Forum.

- You know, I grew up not far from where you did in Maywood, Illinois.

And although I was in a suburb called Elmhurst, and I know a little bit about Maywood, and I know that it is not the hotbed of Country and Folk music.

- No, it isn't.

- Where in the world did your influences come from?

- Um, my father and mother were from Western Kentucky.

They moved up to Chicago early on so my dad could get factory work.

But my father never considered it to be home, you know?

He kept, he always talked as if we were going back to Kentucky.

Like, you know, like if he could ever catch a break, you know, "We'll get to go back down there."

But he didn't wanna work for any of the coal mine companies.

And unless you had a trade or something like, you know, your father owned a business, there wasn't a whole lot of work around there.

Those young people were leaving by the dozens, you know?

And they settled in West Side of Chicago, but we had a lot of friends that were also from the South that they moved up there for work.

And I mean, I just plain liked, I liked Country music anyway, whether my mother and father were, you know, played it around the house and that.

That's where I initially heard it.

But I just I loved Country and I loved R&B, and I loved Rock and Roll.

In Chicago, I was lucky to be able to.

We had great radio stations.

I could hear it all.

- Sure.

Yeah.

So what was that day that you picked up a guitar for the first time?

Do you remember that?

- Yeah, my brother David taught himself how to play the banjo and a mandolin and ukulele.

We had a neighbor had a ukulele who gave it to me and all I did with it was put a strap on it and stand in front of the mirror and try and look like Elvis with a ukulele on you.

And my brother actually took the ukulele.

He borrowed it and took it away to college with him and learned a few chords on it, and then he transferred those chords to the guitar.

And one night I walked in the kitchen and he was playing the guitar for our father.

I just couldn't believe it that one of my brothers could actually play music.

You know, I just, I couldn't get over it.

So he saw that I was really in awe of it and he taught me three chords and gave me a Carter Family record and an Elizabeth Cotten record so I could learn how to finger pick.

And between those two records, the Carter Family and Elizabeth Cotten, I taught myself.

I don't think I've advanced any more on the guitar since, you know?

But it was such a wonder to me that I could sit in a room alone and make a sound, make it on a guitar.

That's always amazed me, so I never wanted to get into anything too complicated, you know?

- And yet it's a leap from learning to play the guitar to writing your own songs and having the confidence to play your own songs.

Where'd that come from?

- Um, writing my own songs came fairly easy because if I sang somebody else's song, it didn't sound at all like what it was I liked about the song, you know?

So it was easier.

(Ken laughs) It was just easy for me to make up words to songs.

I wrote three when I was 14 years old to impress this girl, and years later she found a tape of it and I put those songs in my second record.

- [Ken] Wow!

- You know, and they were just the same kind of songs I was writing later on.

- How is that possible?

I was talking to a songwriter recently who said, "You throw out the first hundred songs you write."

But in your case, two out of your first three show up on your second album.

- Yeah.

I don't throw away much.

(both laugh) (audience laughs) I edit while I'm writing.

Yeah.

- So were the songs good enough to impress the young lady back when you were 14?

- Yeah, but the third song was "Twist and Shout," which I didn't write, yeah.

Unfortunately.

- I have to ask: Was it The Beatles or The Isley Brothers version you did?

- The Isley Brothers.

- The original.

Great.

And so you're off and running two out of your first, well, your first original compositions end up being songs you get on professional recordings.

What were the next three or four?

Were they on the same level as the first two you wrote?

- I didn't consider it writing.

I called it, "Making up songs," you know?

And I would do it frequently when I first started playing.

And I would just sing the song until I got tired of it and then I'd forget it, so I don't know if there's any good songs back there I just forgot about altogether.

But I never considered it writing.

I laid off for a while until I got out of the army.

I went in the army at 18 and got out at 20, and by that time I'd picked up writing again while I was in the army.

I'd met some fellas there.

One guy liked to sing Lefty Frizzell songs.

He was bunking next to me.

And then there was another kid down the hall that liked playing guitar, and I was the only one that had a guitar with me.

So they'd wake me up at four in the morning when they'd come in drinking and, you know, sometimes they wouldn't have to wake me up.

You know, I'd be up already, but we'd play the guitar, like I got some photos of that.

It was pretty good times.

- Yeah!

You had a real promising career with a post office that you passed up on to go into the lucrative field of music.

How'd you get the confidence to do that?

Did you have some early success?

I mean, when's the first time you played for an audience?

- There was this... I had taken lessons, some guitar lessons, down at the Old Time School of Folk Music in Chicago, which was a great place, and still is.

And one of the great things about the way they teach is it doesn't scare you off if you don't know anything about music.

The first thing that scares ya is a sheet of music.

Looking at the notes, you know?

It still scares me.

I got songbooks and I don't know if they're my songs or not.

(Ken laughs) (John laughs) (audience laughs) But they teach you just, they go, "Here, play this chord," and you play it, and then they tell you what to do next.

And they were giving, I already knew how to play three, four chords, but they were teaching some Bluegrass licks, so I took a six week course and I'd go each Thursday.

And afterwards there was a little place across the street called The Fifth Peg, and sometimes they would let amateurs get up and just sing whatever they wanted to, you know?

And one night I was kind of making fun just to my other people sitting around me, you know, just saying, "You know, this is awful."

Like, "You know, this is terrible stuff."

And they were saying, "Well, if you think you can do better, why don't you get up?"

So I got up and I sang.

Now I never sang any of my songs for anybody except that girl I was trying to impress.

(Ken laughs) (audience laughs) So I sang "Sam Stone" and "Hello In There" and "Paradise."

- [Ken] Oh!

(chuckles) (audience applauding) - [Audience Member] Woo!

- See, I thought they were really strange songs 'cause I hadn't heard anything like them.

So I thought that people were either gonna throw something at me and leave, or go, "Nice try, kid."

You know?

And they just sat there.

They didn't even applaud.

They just looked at me, you know?

I looked at them, they looked at me, and that was about it, yeah.

And then the owner asked me if I wanted a job.

And I said, "Doing what?"

He said, he said, "Singing!"

(all laughing) And I said, "Man, I can't sing."

And he said "Just come in here and sing three 40 minute sets on a Thursday night."

You know?

And he says, "And you can keep half the door."

So I did.

And I started doing that and I was delivering mail during the day.

- Did you have enough songs to fill those sets?

- No!

At first I didn't.

I filled it up with, like, Tom Paxton, Bob Dylan.

I think I used to do "Leaving On A Jet Plane" too, that John Denver.

And "Sweet Baby James" and stuff like that, you know?

But I had... I had maybe a handful of songs, you know?

- How is it possible that those first three songs you perform in public are among your most popular, are John Prine classics, the audience erupts just at the mention of their name, and you're doing those songs 30 some years later?

- Yeah!

- What's the explanation for that?

How's that possible the first three are- - I don't know.

(Ken laughs) I mean!

(audience laughs) Yeah.

If you would ask me to bet on it, I wouldn't of.

Yeah.

- Never heard anything like that.

We had Kris Kristofferson on the show not long ago and he talked about, he's very proud of the day that he played a role in discovering your talents and getting you signed.

And he told a terrific story.

I wanna hear your take on it.

But a central figure in that story is a guy named Steve Goodman.

- Yeah, definitely.

- A man that a lot of people have heard of, but they know that he wrote "City of New Orleans," but a lot of people have not seen Steve play because he passed away like '83, maybe?

- '84, yeah.

- '84.

And he's a unique character.

And the two of you had a remarkable relationship.

I don't know if it was like Lennon and McCartney or Flatt and Scruggs or Abbott and Costello.

I don't know.

I'm not quite sure what it was, but you guys clearly bonded and were good for each other.

And how did you meet Steve Goodman?

And how did he end up playing such a role in getting you signed to a contract?

- Steve, first of all, was on... He was on the Chicago Folk scene since about 1968.

He was a fixture already when I came around.

You know, I was the new kid on the block.

He came over.

After I played only a couple of weeks, people were starting to come and check me out from other clubs.

I'll tell you about the third week I ever played Roger Ebert came in to have a beer because the popcorn was too salty at the movie he walked out on, and he came in and had a beer and heard me singing in the back and wrote his newspaper article the next day.

Instead about the movie, he wrote it about this singing mailman.

It was called "Singing Mailman Delivers the Message."

(audience laughs) And after that I had a full house at this little club every Thursday.

- [Ken] Wow!

- Just from that one article, you know?

And word was starting to get around, so it wasn't too many weeks went by before Steve Goodman comes down to check me out.

And I'd heard Steve on the radio, even though he didn't have a record out.

There was this wonderful radio show called "The Midnight Special" on WFMT in Chicago, and it was all Folk music.

And some of it was old stuff that they were just trying to introduce people to, and some of it was tapes by local Folk artists in the Chicago area.

And they play "City in New Orleans" and then I'd heard it several times on the radio.

And I had Steve Goodman pictured as this guy, a tall, lanky guy, like with, like, kind of like a Beatnik.

That's the way I just heard his voice, you know?

And when he came up to meet me this guy walks in the room, he's about just a little over five feet tall, and he walks and talks like Edward G. Robinson.

He looked just like Little Caesar, you know?

He'd get right up in your face and poke you in the chest when he was talking to you.

So we kind of became immediate friends, you know?

And we just palled around the Chicago folk clubs until this fateful night came along with Steve was opening for Kristofferson at The Quiet Night in Chicago.

And I knew that, but I couldn't get off work.

I was working.

I wanted to go see Kris and Steve play.

And what happened was they got done with the show and Kris and the fellows in his band, and also Paul Anka was there because he was in town playing a supper club.

And he was singing, I think, one of Kris's songs, like "For The Good Times" or something.

And anyway, they were all sitting around and they were talking about how great Steve's stuff was.

Steve didn't wanna hear about it, right?

He didn't wanna sit there and just bask in it for a while.

He said, "You guys haven't heard nothing."

He says, "You gotta get in a cab with me right now and go hear my buddy."

And it was like Sunday night, you know?

And it took a while for him to talk them all into it.

He got them in a cab, they came over to the place where I was at, and I was waiting for my paycheck.

And the waitresses had cleaned up, the chairs were upside down on the tables, and the guy was counting the money out and cleaning the Irish coffee machine, and here comes Kris Kristofferson with Samantha Eggar and Paul Anka and Goodman.

And they come over and I unpack my guitar and I get up and do a set just for them.

They take the chairs down from the tables and sit right in front of me.

And I do my entire repertoire for them, you know?

(Ken laughs) And that's pretty much how it went down, you know?

But Kris was... Kris couldn't have helped Steve and I any more than he did.

And one thing I always try and impress, especially upon people that know about the business and all the record business and the publishing business is Kris never took Steve or I to his record company or took us to his publisher, you know?

He just introduced us to some of the best people in the business, you know, and just let it go like that.

- That had to be the single most intimidating audience you'd ever been in front of.

Then or since, right?

- Yeah, but I was pretty loose by that time.

(Ken laughing) (audience laughing) You know?

(audience applauding) And when I got done, the second I got done, I just, I sang everything I could think of.

Kris stood up and asked me if I would just stay up there and sing all of them over again, you know?

(Ken laughs) (audience laughs) - And you said?

- And I said, "Sure!

What do you wanna hear first?"

He says, "The one about old people."

I said, "What do you want to hear now?"

And he goes, "The one about Donald and Lydia."

So, like, I just, he had just heard them and I started.

I was getting requests already, you know?

It was really, it was a magic night for sure.

You know?

And Steve and I ended up going to New York City eventually because of that.

And we weren't there 24 hours and we both had record contracts.

We went back to Chicago like conquering heroes, you know?

(Ken laughs) (audience laughs) - Almost oughta have a disclaimer note for people watching at home.

Kids don't try this.

It doesn't work that way.

- No, it's not.

No.

None of it's supposed to work that way.

I didn't know it at the time.

I've learned since, you know?

Told my story to other people that have been, like, doing everything but twirling batons to try and get into, you know, show business, yeah.

- You know, those songs you played that night ended up being the core of your first album, called "John Prine" on Atlantic Records.

Incredible reviews.

I mean, Roger Ebert's praise paled by comparison to what was to follow.

And it was a huge, huge critical favorite and you began to build an audience, and the songs on that are still songs you do now.

But one of the songs that got my attention at the time, because it was a very political time, was "A Flag Decal Won't Get You Into Heaven Anymore."

Now you've never been- (audience applauding) You wouldn't be, you're not an overtly political songwriter.

No one mistook you for Phil Ochs.

But that song was right there.

And I think one critic said it was sort of the exact opposite of Merle Haggard's "Okie From Muskogee," which, given your respect for Haggard, you were probably pretty enthusiastic about that.

And so, but it was the times and songs would be more overtly political.

I wonder if we could ask you to sing that song.

- Sure!

(audience applauding) (audience cheering) It came from... I wrote this on my mail route.

I was, ah... (mellow guitar music) One of the, um... Publications that all of us mailmen hated to see coming was "Reader's Digest," and it was mainly because of its size.

It was real bulky, but it was small.

It was small like a letter.

So you had to carry it with the letters, you know?

And, like, you could only fit about maybe four "Reader's Digest," and then about a handful of mail in each bundle.

And you would end up with 160 bundles 'cause everybody was taking "Reader's Digest," you know?

And one day there's a flag in the middle of a "Reader's Digest" with no explanation, it just, you open it up and there's a free flag decal this big that you just peel off the back and stick it anywhere you want.

And so I thought it was a little odd when I was delivering them.

The next day, I came out and people had them stuck everywhere.

And they weren't just stuck.

They were like: They put them up there like and stuck them on there like that.

Like, "That'll show them."

You know?

It was like that, you know?

(audience laughs) And I thought, "Wow!

Yeah.

Shoot, things are even worse than I thought they were."

You know?

(all laughing) (mellow bright guitar music) ♪ While digesting Reader's Digest ♪ ♪ In the back of the dirty book store ♪ ♪ A plastic flag with gum on the back ♪ ♪ Fell out on the floor ♪ ♪ Well, I picked it up and I ran outside ♪ ♪ Slapped it on my window shield ♪ ♪ And if I could see ol' Betsy Ross ♪ ♪ I'd tell her how good I feel ♪ ♪ But your flag decal won't ♪ ♪ get you into Heaven anymore ♪ ♪ They're already overcrowded ♪ ♪ from your dirty little war ♪ ♪ Now Jesus don't like killin' ♪ ♪ No matter what ♪ ♪ the reason's for ♪ ♪ And your flag decal won't ♪ ♪ get you into Heaven anymore ♪ ♪ ♪ - [Announcer] For more information on "The Songwriters," visit SongwritersShow.org.

♪ ♪ - [Announcer] "The Songwriters" is supported in part by the Nashville Convention and Visitors Corporation, Rusty and Kacie Gaston, the Mike Curb Foundation, SESAC, BMI, and ASCAP, Rich and Charlotte Hallworth, Kerry O'Neil and Carla Wallace.

Additional support is provided by: (bright piano music) ♪ ♪ (bright piano music continues) ♪ ♪ (cheerful music) (bright dramatic music)