REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM >>LORENE: HELLO, I'M LORENE MILLS AND WELCOME TO REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

I AM SO PLEASED TO HAVE WITH US TODAY ONE OF MY FAVORITE ARTISTS, JOHN PUGH.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>>JOHN: IT'S MY PLEASURE, LORENE.

>>LORENE: WELL, YOU ARE A WORLD-RENOWNED ARTIST, A MURALIST AND YOU SPECIALIZE IN A KIND OF ART CALLED TROMPE L'OEIL, A FRENCH TERM FOR TRICKING THE EYE.

AND WE'RE GOING TO LOOK AT A LOT OF YOUR MURALS AND DELIGHT IN OUR EYES BEING TRICKED BECAUSE YOU PRESENT THESE 3D IMAGES THAT LOOK LIKE THEY'RE REALLY STEPPING OUT OF THE WALL OR OUT OF THE FRAME.

AND YET WHEN YOU GO THERE, IT'S TWO DIMENSIONAL, IT'S A GREAT ART.

YOU HAVE OVER 250 MURALS, YOU HAVE WORKS IN SAN FRANCISCO AND NEW YORK CITY, MIAMI, TAIWAN, NEW ZEALAND, ALL OVER THE WORLD.

AND WHAT I LOVE IS BECAUSE THE BUILDINGS AREN'T COMING TO YOU, YOU GO ALL THESE PLACES AND YOU LIVE THERE, SOME OF THEM LIKE THE ONE IN HAWAII, THAT WAS 50 FOOT BY 120 FEET.

YOU DON'T DO THAT OVERNIGHT, YOU MOVE THERE AND THE WHOLE EXPERIENCE IS YOUR ART REFLECTS THAT WHOLE EXPERIENCE.

WE'LL LOOK AT SOME PICTURES OF THAT IN A LITTLE BIT.

BUT I ALSO WANT TO MENTION BECAUSE IF PEOPLE GET AS INTRIGUED ABOUT THIS KIND OF ART AS I DO, THIS IS HIS BOOK CALLED THE MURALS OF JOHN PUGH , AND IT SAYS, BEYOND TROMPE L'OEIL.

SO I REALLY RECOMMEND THIS, IT'S FULL OF EXTRAORDINARY PICTURES AND THEN YOU CAN ALMOST DO A NATIONAL TRIP AROUND THE UNITED STATES, AROUND THE WORLD, TO SEE THIS IN SITU.

I WOULD LIKE TO ASK YOU ABOUT YOUR BACKGROUND, BECAUSE I KNOW THAT YOU TRAINED AS AN ARTIST, BUT CERTAINLY WAS THERE EVER AN ELEMENT OF ARCHITECTURE, BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO HAVE A WAY OF BEHOLDING STRUCTURE.

LET THIS KIND OF ART COME FORTH, TALK TO ME.

>>JOHN: NO, DEFINITELY, I HAD SOME ARCHITECTURAL BACKGROUND, I ALSO DID CARPENTRY FOR A WHILE AND I THINK THOSE WERE IMPORTANT ELEMENTS BECAUSE I DO KIND OF WALK THIS FINE LINE BETWEEN ART AND ARCHITECTURE.

I REALLY GET ALONG WITH ARCHITECTS REALLY WELL, BECAUSE SOMETIMES WE MIGHT HAVE A WALL ONA LOT LINE LIMITATION, I CAN CREATE AN ARCHITECTURAL FEATURE AND TRY TO INTEGRATE WITH THEIR ARCHITECTURE.

>>LORENE: I KNOW YOU'VE ACTUALLY DONE THAT IN SOME OF THE MURALS WHERE THERE HAS TO BE A FIRE ESCAPE, YOU KNOW AND YOU BUILD IT INTO THE DESIGN.

>>JOHN: CORRECT.

>>LORENE: WHAT DREW YOU TO THIS, I MEAN, THERE'S A TRADITION THROUGH THE GREEKS AND MEDIEVAL TIME, TALK A LITTLE ABOUT THAT ARTISTIC HISTORY OF TROMPE L'OEIL.

>>JOHN: OF TROMPE L'OEIL ITSELF, I MEAN IT STARTED WITH THE GREEKS BACK IN THE GOLDEN AGE OF PERICLES AND IT'S BEEN GOING ON.

OF COURSE THAT'S ALL VANISHED BY NOW, BUT THERE'S STUFF LEFT OVER FROM POMPEI AND CERTAINLY IN THE BAROQUE PERIOD, THE RENAISSANCE, THERE'S A LOT THAT'S STILL AROUND, THAT IS INTACT.

BUT THERE'S ANCIENT STORIES ABOUT ART CONTESTS WITH THE TROMPE L'OEIL, IT WASN'T CALLED TROMPE L'OEIL IN GREEKS, BUT IT'S BEEN AROUND FOR A LONG TIME.

>>LORENE: BECAUSE PEOPLE LOVE IT, THEY ARE DELIGHTED TO SAY IT LOOKED SO REAL.

I KNOW THERE'S A STORY OF A WOMAN WHO LIVED OPPOSITE ONE OF YOUR WORKS, IT WAS SOMETHING LIKE THIS, CREATING A FALSE INTERIOR IN AN ACTUAL BRICK STRUCTURE AND SO SAW YOU COME IN, SHE SAW THE SCAFFOLDS GO UP, SHE SAW YOU WORKING ON IT, SHE SAW THEM TAKE IT AWAY AND SHE STILL CALLED ONCE IT WAS GONE TO COMPLAIN THAT NOBODY HAD FIXED THE WALL.

>>JOHN: YEAH.

SHE WAS AT THE WINDOW RIGHT ACROSS THE STREET AND SHE CALLED THE ADMINISTRATION AFTER I TOOK THE SCAFFOLD.

SHE GOES, WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO FIX THAT WALL?

>>LORENE: I KNOW, IT'S JUST AMAZING.

>>JOHN: THAT'S ALMOST DUMBFOUNDING THOUGH.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

AND SO WHAT OTHER REACTIONS DO YOU HAVE FROM THE PEOPLE, LIKE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD.

WE KNOW THAT PEOPLE MAKE PILGRIMAGE TO SEE THESE THINGS.

>>JOHN: OH, YEAH.

WELL, SOMETIMES I HAVE SOME FANS, BUT I'VE HAD PEOPLE TRY TO TALK TO THE FIGURES THAT LOOK LIKE THEY'RE IN FRONT OF THE PIECE AND I THINK THERE WAS ONE PIECE THAT WAS IN A CAFE WHERE A WOMAN WAS SITTING DOWN AND SOMEONE THOUGHT THEY WERE GETTING THE COLD TREATMENT BECAUSE THIS WOMAN WOULDN'T EVEN LOOK AT THEM.

HE EVEN COMPLAINED TO SOMEONE AT THE BAR THERE AND SAID, THAT WOMAN, WHAT IS WRONG WITH HER, SHE WON'T EVEN LOOK AT ME.

>>LORENE: AND DID HE TAKE HIM OVER THERE AND SAY... >>JOHN: WELL I THINK HE REALIZED IT AFTER THEN.

AND WHAT YOU SAID EARLIER, I THINK PEOPLE DO TAKE DELIGHT IN BEING ACTUALLY TRICKED, IF THEY ACTUALLY HAVE THE SENSATION OF BEING FOOLED.

I THINK THERE IS A UNIVERSAL APPEAL TO THAT.

>>LORENE: OH YEAH AND THEN THEY BRING EVERYONE ELSE, OH MY GOD, I THOUGHT IT WAS REAL.

YOU'VE GOT TO LOOK AT THIS.

I KNOW THAT YOU'RE BUILDING, SO IN SANTA FE WE ARE LUCKY ENOUGH TO HAVE THE BACK OF GEORGE R.R.

MARTIN'S JEAN COCTEAU THEATER, YOU HAVE DONE A BEAUTIFUL MURAL WITH APPROPRIATELY ENOUGH FOR GEORGE DRAGONS.

AND IT'S PART OF WHEN PEOPLE WHO LIVE HERE SAY, OH, WELL YOU'VE GOT TO COME AND LOOK AT THIS, TO VISITORS WHO COME TO SANTA FE AND THEY TAKE THEIR PICTURE.

ALAS YOU HAVE COME BACK TO SANTA FE BECAUSE THAT BEAUTIFUL DRAGON MURAL WAS ACTUALLY VANDALIZED.

I DON'T KNOW, YOU KNOW, IT HAD TO BE DONE IN THE DEAD OF NIGHT BECAUSE IF YOU BEHOLD THIS WALL WITH DRAGONS ERUPTING AND THIS ONE YOUNG WOMAN BEHOLDING THE EMERGENCE OF A DRAGON, YOU JUST HAVE TO THINK HOW COOL IS THAT, YOU DON'T THINK, OH, I'VE GOT TO TRASH THIS, IT'S SO COOL.

>>JOHN: WELL, I DON'T THINK IT HAPPENS THAT OFTEN.

I THINK THIS IS ONE BELLIGERENT ACT BY SOMEONE WHO JUST WAS HAVING A FIT ABOUT SOMETHING.

>>LORENE: WELL, WE PRAY FOR PEACE IN HIS SOUL, BUT THANK YOU FOR COMING AND RESTORING THE PIECE TO ITS ORIGINAL GLORY, I KNOW IT'S A LOT OF WORK.

SO WHAT I LOVE ABOUT WHAT YOU DO, YOUR WORK IS SO MULTI-LAYERED, NOT JUST IN THE ACTUAL ART ITSELF, BUT WHEN YOU DO THINGS LIKE THE BUILDING IN CHICAGO THAT WE'LL TALK ABOUT LATER, YOU PUT ELEMENTS, YOU DO A DEEP HISTORY ON THESE THINGS.

YOU FOCUS ON THINGS THAT MAYBE PEOPLE DIDN'T KNOW, LIKE THE GOOD AND THE BAD OF CHICAGO IN THE TWENTIES, LIKE THE CHICAGO PIECE.

AND SO THAT'S WHAT I MEAN ABOUT THE MULTI-LAYERS.

OF COURSE, YOU DO THE MULTI-LAYERS PAINTINGS AND THE FAKE LAYERS OF THE TROMPE L'OEIL, 3D, BUT THERE'S ALSO LAYERS, YOU'RE A HISTORIAN, YOU'RE AN ANTHROPOLOGIST.

>>JOHN: WELL, I REALLY DO THINK THAT JUST BECAUSE IT'S TROMPE L'OEIL DOESN'T MEAN IT'S JUST DECORATIVE, I THINK THERE'S A LOT TO COMMUNICATE.

I LIKE TO INSTILL A SENSE OF PLACE AND EVEN A PRIDE OF PLACE AND THAT OFTEN ENTAILS TAKING SOME OF THE HERITAGE OR HISTORY LESSONS IN THE CASE WITH THAT PIECE, IT'S ACTUALLY OTTAWA, ILLINOIS, NEAR CHICAGO.

BUT I WANTED TO CELEBRATE A HUNDRED YEARS AGO WITH THE FLAPPERS AND WHAT WAS GOING ON AT THAT TIME WAS THE RADON GIRLS WERE RIGHT NEXT DOOR ACTUALLY TO THAT POINT.

>>LORENE: RADIUM, YEAH.

>>JOHN: RADIUM, RIGHT.

THEY WERE THEY WERE LICKING THEIR BRUSHES AND PUTTING THE GLOW IN THE DARK NUMBERS ON CLOCKS, BUT THAT WAS A BIG DEAL.

>>LORENE: BUT NOBODY KNEW THAT THAT WAS RADIOACTIVE.

>>JOHN: RIGHT, RIGHT.

>>LORENE: AND THESE WONDERFUL YOUNG GIRLS WERE LITERALLY LICKING THE BRUSH, DIPPING IT IN THE RADIUM AND THEN PAINTING IT.

>>JOHN: AND SOME OF THEM GETTING FATALLY ILL, YEAH.

SO THERE'S SAD STORIES, THERE'S ALSO A REVOLUTION, A WOMAN'S REVOLUTION OF THAT PERIOD.

I HAVE GEORGIA O'KEEFE, SANTA FE, IN THAT PIECE TOO, AS A WOMAN THAT WAS A PIONEER FROM THAT ERA AND SOMEONE WHO'S INDEPENDENT AND REALLY SPOKE OF A WOMAN'S INDEPENDENCE AND THAT REVOLUTION, IN FACT THE NAME OF THE PIECE IS CALLED REVOLUTION.

>>LORENE: WELL WE MIGHT AS WELL LOOK AT IT.

SO WE'RE GOING TO PUT IT UP ON SCREEN.

AND IT IS JUST PART OF A BUILDING, WE HAVE THE BEFORE AND THE AFTER.

SO YOU TOOK ONE PART OF IT AND YOU OPENED UP SEVERAL, AGAIN, THE 3D TRICK.

SO YOU HAD TWO FLAPPERS SITTING WITH AN O'KEEFE, AND THEN IN SOME OF THE CLOSED WINDOWS, YOU COULD SEE THE FIGURES OF THE RADIUM GIRL AND ANOTHER FIGURE THAT I COULDN'T TELL WHAT.

>>JOHN: THERE'S TWO RADIUM, THERE'S TWO DIFFERENT SCENES OF RADIUM IN THE WINDOWS AND THEN THE OTHER TWO ARE THE FLAPPERS.

>>LORENE: AND SO THAT WAS, AGAIN, THE ALPHA AND OMEGA, THE POSITIVES AND THE NEGATIVES OF THAT.

>>JOHN: CORRECT, ABSOLUTELY.

>>LORENE: SO, WE BEHOLD THE TOTALITY, NOT ONLY IN THE IMAGE, BUT IN THE KIND OF PASSION OF THE TIME, THE ZEITGEIST?

OF THE TIME, YOU INCLUDE THOSE.

ANOTHER ONE I'D LOVE TO, WELL, OF COURSE WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT YOUR FAMOUS WINSLOW, ARIZONA, WE'LL PUT IT UP HERE.

NOW, I APOLOGIZE TO EVERYONE WHO WILL BE SINGING THE EAGLE SONG ABOUT WINSLOW, ARIZONA, "SUCH A FINE SIGHT TO SEE."

>>JOHN: IT'S ACTUALLY GOING OFF ON MY HEAD RIGHT NOW.

>>LORENE: I KNOW, I KNOW.

SO, BUT WE'LL JUST SEE.

IT'S A WONDERFUL, WONDERFUL PIECE, YOU WANT TO TALK A LITTLE ABOUT IT?

>>JOHN: WELL, IT WAS AN INTERNATIONAL COMPETITION AND I REALLY ENJOYED THE IDEA THAT YOU'RE STANDING AT THE CORNER AND YOU'RE LOOKING AT THE WINDOWS AND THIS WHOLE THING TAKES PLACE.

YOU SEE THE REFLECTION OF "THE GIRL, MY LORD, IN THE FLATBED FORD, SLOWING DOWN TO TAKE A LOOK AT ME."

AND I'M LOOKING AT THE REFLECTION AND UPSTAIRS, MAYBE IT'S LATER ON, THEY'RE DANCING OR SOMETHING.

>>LORENE: AN EAGLE.

>>JOHN: THERE'S AN EAGLE UP THERE TOO.

>>LORENE: THE SONG BY THE EAGLES.

>>JOHN: MIGHT REMIND YOU OF A ROCK BAND.

IN FACT, PART OF THE PROJECT WAS ACTUALLY PAID FOR BY THE EAGLES TOO.

>>LORENE: OH, THAT'S SO LOVELY.

HOW SWEET.

>>JOHN: IT WAS, IT WAS, IT WAS GREAT DOING A MURAL THAT KIND OF WAS THE MURAL ABOUT THAT SONG.

I'VE BEEN TOLD THAT NOW AND I JUST FINISHED RESTORING THAT, IN FACT, I'M GOING BACK THERE IN A COUPLE DAYS TO DO ONE LAST COAT OF IT.

BUT I'VE COMPLETELY RESTORED IT BECAUSE THE BUILDING CAUGHT ON FIRE ABOUT 10 YEARS AGO AND THERE WAS SOME DAMAGE TO IT, IT TOOK TIME FOR IT TO MANIFEST.

BUT I'VE BEEN TOLD THAT BY SOME OF THE CITY OFFICIALS, THAT THAT IS THE NUMBER ONE VISITED SPOT ON ROUTE 66 NOW.

I LOVE TO BE PART OF THAT.

>>LORENE: OH, THAT'S SO GOOD AND THEY ALL WANT THEIR PICTURE TAKEN IN FRONT OF IT.

OH, THAT'S WONDERFUL BECAUSE YOU'VE NOW REPLACED, GET YOUR "KICKS ON ROUTE 66," NOW IT'S STANDING ON THE CORNER IN WINSLOW, ARIZONA.

ANOTHER ONE THAT I JUST LOVE, WE'LL LOOK AT SOME IMAGES OF IT NOW.

IN HAWAII, YOU DID A BREATHTAKING AND HUGE IMAGE, YOU CALL IT MANA NALU.

WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THE SIZE, THE DIMENSIONS OF THIS, WHO'S IN IT AND THEN I WANT TO LOOK AT SOME DETAILS LIKE THE FOAM, HOW YOU DID SEA FOAM, LET'S TALK ABOUT THIS ONE.

>>JOHN: OKAY.

SO IT'S ABOUT 50 FEET TALL BY A HUNDRED FEET WIDE.

AND IT'S MAINLY INSIDE THIS GLASS WAVE MONUMENT, IT LOOKS LIKE A GLASS WAVE MONUMENT IS THE FIGURE, THE BUST OF QUEEN LILIUOKALANI AND SHE WAS THE LAST REIGNING MONARCH OF HAWAII AND SHE DID A LOT FOR HAWAII.

SHE YIELDED, SHE DID ALL THESE REALLY INTELLIGENT THINGS, SO HAWAII COULD STILL HANG ON TO ITS HERITAGE AND SOME OF ITS ROYAL FUNDS, IN FACT, SHE CREATED THIS QUEEN LILIUOKALANI CHILDREN'S FOUNDATION, THAT IS STILL IN PLACE TODAY.

>>LORENE: AND THAT'S WHY YOU HAVE THE CHILDREN.

>>JOHN: THAT'S WHY WE HAVE THE CHILDREN, THEY'RE PAYING THEIR ALOHA, THEIR THANKS TO QUEEN.

THE WAVE ITSELF IS, LIKE I SAID, IT WAS, IT'S A GLASS WAVE AND IT WAS REALLY FUN.

IT HAD ABOUT 30 COATS OF GLAZES ON IT TOO, I THINK WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THIS BEFORE.

>>LORENE: WE'LL DO A CLOSEUP OF THAT SEA FOAM, BECAUSE IT REALLY LOOKS LIKE SEA FOAM.

I MEAN, YOU CAN REALLY ALMOST HEAR IT SIZZLE, HEAR IT FOAM, YOU CAN ALMOST TOUCH IT.

>>JOHN: THANKS.

>>LORENE: IS THAT ONE OF YOUR FAVORITES?

>>JOHN: THAT ACTUALLY IS PROBABLY ONE OF MY FAVORITE PROJECTS.

AND AT THE END OF THAT PROJECT THERE WAS BEING BROUGHT INTO THE FOLD, THEY HAD THIS DIRECTOR OF THE QUEEN, LILIUOKALANI, I HOPE I'M SAYING THAT RIGHT, CHILDREN'S FOUNDATION THAT ACTUALLY PUT THIS BONE NECKLACE AROUND MY HEAD AND IT HAD THESE SPIRIT ANIMALS AND SHE CARVED IT FOR ME.

>>LORENE: OH MY GOODNESS.

>>JOHN: AND SHE HAD TEARS IN HER EYES AND I HAD TEARS IN MY EYES.

TO BE BROUGHT INTO THE FOLD LIKE THAT OF THE CULTURE IS NOT SOMETHING THAT'S AN AVERAGE TOURIST CAN GET.

AND I'VE GOTTEN THAT A FEW TIMES IN NEW ZEALAND AND WITH OTHER PROJECTS WHERE THEY WANT ME TO GET INTO THE ROOTS OF THE CULTURE THERE AND EXPRESS SOME, YOU KNOW, DEEPER MEANING, SENSE OF PLACE, PRIDE TO PLACE ABOUT THAT LOCATION.

AND, BOY, IT'S SUCH AN INCREDIBLE JOURNEY SOMETIMES.

>>LORENE: WELL, WE'RE SPEAKING TODAY WITH JOHN PUGH ABOUT HIS AMAZING TROMPE L'OEIL MURALS ALL OVER THE WORLD.

I WANT TO STAY IN HAWAII JUST FOR A MINUTE, BECAUSE DIDN'T THEY WANT YOU TO ASK PERMISSION.

I MEAN, IT WAS ARTISTIC CREATION, BUT THAT YOU WENT TO THEM AND ASK PERMISSION ACTUALLY, TO THE SPIRIT OF THE QUEEN OR THE QUEEN'S REPRESENTATIVES.

SO TELL US A LITTLE MORE ABOUT THAT.

>>JOHN: THEY WERE CONCERNED ABOUT THAT, I SPENT TIME WITH A SPIRITUAL ELDER AND WE DID THINGS LIKE LEARN ABOUT THE HAWAIIAN CULTURE AND THE HERITAGE.

WE ACTUALLY WENT QUEEN LILIUOKALANI'S TOMB AND ASKED FOR PERMISSION, WE HAD THIS CEREMONIAL TYPE THING WITH CONCH SHELLS AND I FELT THIS, REALLY HUGE WAVE OF MANA, WHICH IS THIS GOOD ENERGY, WHEN WE ASKED FOR PERMISSION DIRECTLY WITH HER.

SO LATER ON AS I WAS DOING THE PROJECT, SOME OF THE LOCALS SAID, WHO GAVE YOU PERMISSION, I MEAN HOW COME YOU'RE DOING THIS, I COULD SAY I GOT PERMISSION, THE WAY I LOOKED AT THEM AND THEY LOOKED AT ME, THEY GO OKAY, BRO.

THEY GOT IT.

SO I WAS COACHED WELL AND BROUGHT INTO THIS THING.

SO THAT WAS THIS REALLY EXCITING PROJECT.

>>LORENE: SO HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE TO DO A 50-FOOT MURAL.

YOU WERE THERE SOME TIME.

>>JOHN: YES I WAS ACTUALLY THERE FOR ALMOST A YEAR.

BUT THERE WAS A LOT OF GLAZES, I DID SOME OF IT IN MY STUDIO, WHICH BY THE WAY, I CAN DO MOST OF THE SMALL ONES IN THE STUDIO AND THEN INTEGRATE IT ON LOCATION AND NOT HAVE TO SPEND ALL THAT TIME ON LOCATION, WHICH IS NICE.

BUT THAT ONE WAS SO BIG THAT IT REQUIRED.

>>LORENE: AND ALSO IT'S A NICE PLACE TO SPEND SOME TIME.

>>JOHN: YEAH, MAYBE NOT AT THE MURAL SITE ALL THE TIME.

>>LORENE: NO, NO, NO, NO, MAYBE AT THE BEACH MAYBE.

>>JOHN: OR ANOTHER ISLAND.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

YEAH, YEAH, YEAH.

SO THERE'S ANOTHER ONE THAT I'D LOVE TO TALK ABOUT BECAUSE IT'S SO LITERAL AND FIGURATIVE.

LET'S LOOK AT THE PICTURE NOW OF THE THEATRE IN THE ROUND.

>>JOHN: OH, OKAY.

>>LORENE: SO IT'S SO BEAUTIFULLY DONE.

YOU MANAGED TO, WELL DESCRIBE, WELL WE ARE LOOKING AT IT, BUT YOU TELL US SOME THINGS TO LOOK FOR, LIKE WHAT'S INSIDE THAT WE CAN SEE.

>>JOHN: WELL, IT WAS MY WAY OF EXPRESSING THIS IDEA OF THE THEATER AND KIND OF THE WORDING IN THE ROUND, I MADE IT INTO A GLASS SPHERE, WHICH IS KIND OF LIKE THE WAVE IN HAWAII.

HAS THIS TRANSPARENT QUALITY REFLECTIONS ON THE GLASS BALL AND INSIDE THE GLASS BALL ARE A FEW DIFFERENT PLAY PRODUCTIONS GOING ON.

THE MAIN ONE IS BLYTHE SPIRIT, ROMEO AND JULIET'S IN THERE AND THERE'S ACTUALLY SOME CREW TECHNICIANS THAT ARE IN THERE A GHOST CAT THAT WAS REALLY BELOVED BY THE THEATER NAMED SAMMY, HE'S WALKING UPSIDE DOWN INSIDE.

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU HAVE A CLOSE UP OF THAT OR NOT.

>>LORENE: WE'LL LOOK AT IT.

>>JOHN: OKAY, BUT, ALSO THE DIRECTOR, STEVE ANTONUCCI, WAS ALSO AT THE BASE HELPING PUSH THIS, IT'S ALMOST LIKE GIVING BIRTH, PUSH THIS BALL THROUGH THE BROKEN WALL AND OUT INTO THE STREETS.

SO IT WAS AN EXCITING PIECE.

>>LORENE: YEAH, A GIFT TO LITERALLY TAKE THE THEATER IN THE ROUND.

>>JOHN: I CALL IT THEATRE BALL.

>>LORENE: IT'S KIND OF A GIVEAWAY.

NOW, BUT THERE'S NO EXPLAINING THE NEXT PROJECT, WHICH WE'RE GOING TO LOOK AT.

IN MEXICO, YOU DID SOME INCREDIBLE SNAKES, I MEAN, THEY ARE REALLY COMING AT YOU.

SO TELL US ABOUT, WE'LL LOOK AT MAYBE THE QUETZALCOATL ONE FIRST.

>>JOHN: RIGHT, THAT WAS RIGHT AFTER THE DRAGON, IT WAS LIKE THE YEAR OF THE DRAGON.

SO I DID THE ONES HERE, THE SANTA FE DRAGONS, THE TEENAGE SANTA FE DRAGONS, THAT HAD THE SANTA FE COLORS.

I WANTED TO JUST MENTION THAT FOR A SECOND, BECAUSE IT WAS REALLY MEANT TO BE ABOUT SANTA FE AS WELL AS GEORGE MARTIN'S.

>>LORENE: WELL, LET'S LOOK AT IT AGAIN BECAUSE YOU HAD THE FIGURE OF THE YOUNG WOMAN WITH THE EARTH TONE DRAGON WITH THE CORAL.

YEA AND THEN THE OTHER DRAGON, THE TURQUOISE, THE WATER, YOU KNOW, IT'S JUST BEAUTIFULLY DONE.

>>JOHN: THANK YOU.

>>LORENE: BEAUTIFULLY DONE.

>>JOHN: YEAH, THANKS.

THEY WERE ALL MEANT TO BE SANTA FE COLORS AND I EVEN HAD ONE LOCAL TRIBAL PERSON COME BY THAT SAID THAT I BELIEVE IT WAS THE ONE TO THE LEFT, IT REMINDED HIM OF HIS WATER SERPENT GOD, WHICH IS LIKE A THUNDERBIRD.

AND WE HAD THIS GREAT CONNECTION, THAT WAS WHAT I WAS KIND OF HOPING FOR, THAT I DID TAP INTO THE LOCAL INDIGENOUS MYTHOS A LITTLE BIT AS WELL GEORGE RR MARTIN'S ENDEAVORS TOO.

SO IT WAS KIND OF A HYBRID OF THE TWO THINGS.

>>LORENE: AND WHAT I LOVE IS THAT GEORGE RR MARTIN HAS, THE JEAN COCTEAU THEATER.

JEAN COCTEAU, HIMSELF, IS AN AMAZING ARTIST, FILMMAKER, ONE OF THE BEGINNING FILMMAKERS, WHO DEALT A LOT WITH ILLUSION AND THERE YOU ARE CONTINUING THE JEAN COCTEAU TRADITION AT THE JEAN COCTEAU CINEMA, AGAIN MANUFACTURING AND DELIGHTING IN ILLUSION.

SO LET'S GO BACK TO THESE SNAKES.

>>JOHN: OKAY, LET'S GO BACK TO THE SNAKES.

>>LORENE: IN MEXICO YOU DID THE ONE QUETZALCOATL COMING RIGHT OUT AT YOU.

HOW BIG IS THAT?

>>JOHN: THAT'S MAYBE 12 OR 14 FEET SQUARE, THE AMOUNT OF SPACE I USED ON THE WALL THERE AND I USED A BUSH VIPER, BUT IT REALLY HAD THAT FEATHERED, THE FLUMES.

>>LORENE: THE SCALES LOOKED VERY FEATHERLESS.

>>JOHN: TOTALLY LIKE THE QUETZALCOATL, WHICH IS A COMBINATION OF THEQUESTZAL.

>>LORENE: QUESTZAL, THE BIRD.

THE COATL, THE SERPENT.

>>JOHN: WHICH IS CONSIDERED THE RAIN GOD, CAME FROM UNDERGROUND.

COCTEAU MADE THE MOST POWERFUL ANIMAL GOD IN THAT PRE-COLUMBIAN CULTURE.

>>LORENE: AND WHAT WE LOVE THIS PRE-COLUMBIAN AND OTHER PRIMITIVE CULTURES IS THAT ANY CREATURE THAT CROSSES A BARRIER, LIKE A SNAKE GOES FROM UNDERGROUND TO ON TOP, BATS OR MAMMALS THAT FLY, NOT EVERYBODY ELSE DOES THAT.

AND SO THOSE BECOME SOME OF THE SACRED ANIMALS AND ARE CELEBRATED AS BEAUTIFULLY AS YOU DID IN THIS.

AND THE OTHER TWO SNAKES, THEY'RE RED AND BLACK?

>>JOHN: YEAH, THOSE ARE ACTUALLY TWO DIFFERENT TYPES OF KING SNAKES AND THAT WAS IN SACRAMENTO.

I HAD THEM COMBINED TOGETHER, IT WAS AT A DOWNTOWN LOCATION, ACTUALLY THE COLISEUM IN SACRAMENTO, THE COMMONS AREA, DOCO IT'S CALLED, THE AREA.

IT'S TWO KING SNAKES AND WHEN I FINISHED A LOT OF PEOPLE GO, HOW COME THEY'RE FIGHTING, I'M GO, WELL, THEY'RE NOT FIGHTING, THEY'RE ACTUALLY MAKING LOVE.

YEAH.

SO I TITLED THE PIECE "DO NO HARM."

BECAUSE IT'S KIND OF LIKE... >>LORENE: YEAH.

YEAH, LIKE CADUCEUS, THE MEDICAL SYMBOL OF THE SNAKES AROUND THE STAFF.

FIRST, YOU KNOW, DO NO HARM.

THAT'S WHAT I LOVE ABOUT THE LAYERS OF ALL OF THIS.

AND WE HAD MENTIONED EARLIER THE CHICAGO PAINTING, LET'S JUST LOOK AT IT NOW.

BECAUSE THE PEOPLE THAT YOU CHOOSE TO BE INSIDE ARE EMBLEMATIC OF WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THAT CITY, IN THAT BUILDING AT THAT TIME.

SO YOU HAD CHOSEN THE GEORGIA O'KEEFE ON THE TOP, WE'LL DO A CLOSEUP OF THAT.

>>JOHN: OKAY, GOOD.

>>LORENE: AND THEN THE TWO FLAPPERS, BUT IN THE WINDOWS YOU HAVE THE RADIUM GIRLS.

>>JOHN: THEY WERE ACTUALLY, SOME OF THE ACTUAL PEOPLE FROM, IT WAS THE BUILDING RIGHT NEXT DOOR TO WHERE THE MURAL IS THAT THEY WERE LICKING THE BRUSH LIKE THAT AND PRODUCING THE GLOW IN THE DARK CLOCKS.

>>LORENE: AND AT THAT TIME NO ONE KNEW.

>>JOHN: THE LOWER ONE, I THINK I SENT YOU AN INDIVIDUAL IMAGE OF THAT, SHE WAS JUST DOING IT.

SHE WAS, YOU KNOW, THIS YOUNG, 17 YEAR OLD OR 18 YEAR OLD LICKING THE BRUSH AND THEN THE OTHER ONE IS THE ONE WHO HAS A REALLY UPLIFTING SPIRIT, SHE ACTUALLY IS MISSING HER ARM AND IT WAS AFTER SHE HAS SOME TREATMENT, SO SHE LIKE LOST HER ARM BECAUSE OF THIS.

>>LORENE: AND SO THERE'S THE PROMISE OF THE SCIENCE OF THE FUTURE WITHOUT THE WARNING OF THE SCIENCE.

RADIUM MADE THINGS GLOW, IT WAS WONDERFUL, HOW COOL IS THAT, BUT IT WAS ALSO RADIOACTIVE.

>>JOHN: YEAH, UNFORTUNATELY.

>>LORENE: AND A LOT OF, AND PEOPLE DIDN'T FIND OUT UNTIL... >>JOHN: THAT WAS A REALLY SAD STORY.

>>LORENE: IT IS, IT IS, BUT THAT'S WHY I LOVE THE EMBLEMATIC PEOPLE THAT YOU CHOSE TO REPRESENT THAT STORY.

SO NOW I WOULD LOVE TO ASK YOU, SO ON YOUR WEBSITE, LET'S, WHAT IS YOUR WEBSITE?

>>JOHN: IT'S ARTOFJOHNPUGH.COM P U G H >>LORENE: AND YOU CAN FIND OUT WHAT YOUR NEW PROJECTS ARE AND ALL OF THESE THINGS.

>>JOHN: ALSO INSTAGRAM IS ARTOFJOHNPUGH.COM TOO, THAT'S EVEN MORE UPDATED PROBABLY THAN THE WEBSITE, JUST AS AN OPTION.

>>LORENE: BECAUSE ONCE AT PEOPLE START DOWN THIS PATH, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE EVERY YEAR YOU'VE BEEN DOING A MURAL SOMEWHERE OR SOMETIMES TWO OR THREE A YEAR.

AND I LOVE THAT LIST ON YOUR WEBSITE WHERE YOU WERE EVERY YEAR AND YOU KNOW, YOU ARE THERE AND WORKING HARD.

YOU'RE A VERY HARD WORKER.

>>JOHN: WELL I LOVE WHAT I DO.

>>LORENE: I KNOW BUT THEN YOU DO IT SO WELL, YOU HAVE A RARE, RARE GIFT.

AND SO YOU CAME BACK TO SANTA FE TO DO A LITTLE REPAIR WORK ON THIS AND PEOPLE SEE YOU WORKING AND WHAT DO THEY DO?

>>JOHN: NO, THAT'S BEEN REALLY GREAT BECAUSE WHEN I FINISHED THE MURAL LAST TIME, I BASICALLY LEFT.

AND IT SEEMS LIKE THIS TIME A LOT OF PEOPLE COME BY AND THEY'VE TOLD ME WHAT THE MURAL HAS MEANT TO THEM AND HOW MUCH THEY ENJOYED IT.

AND IT'S REALLY TOUCHING TO HEAR THAT IT HAS CREATED A LIFE OF ITS OWN AND PEOPLE DO EMBRACE IT.

I MEAN THAT'S WHAT I HOPE HAPPENS WITH A LOT OF MY PIECES AND IT FEELS LIKE IT DOES.

>>LORENE: BUT YOU WEREN'T AROUND TO ENJOY IT AND THAT'S WHAT'S SO COOL WHEN YOU COME BACK, BECAUSE EVERYONE I KNOW, WHEN THEY HAVE GUESTS THAT COME INTO SANTA FE FROM OUT OF TOWN, THEY TAKE THEM THERE AND YOU'VE GOT TO SEE THIS, THIS IS THE CITY OF ART AND LOOK AT THAT, LOOK AT THIS.

BUT TO ACTUALLY AS THE ARTIST, HAVE PEOPLE BE ABLE TO TELL YOU WHAT THEY GET OUT OF IT AND HOW COOL IT IS.

>>JOHN: THE PERSONAL COMMUNICATION.

>>LORENE: SO AT A MURAL A YEAR OR WAR, WHAT'S UP NEXT FOR YOU?

>>JOHN: WELL RIGHT NOW I'M FINISHING A PROJECT, WELL, I'M AT THE VERY END OF A PROJECT FOR THE DENVER ZOO AND ITS ON THE OUTSIDE OF THE ZOO AND IT'S FACING THE CENTER PARK.

IT'S A REALLY BIG PROJECT.

I'M ALSO DOING ONE FOR, IT'S THE MILKEN CENTER FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF THE AMERICAN DREAM, AND IT'S ON PENNSYLVANIA AVENUE, IT'S BASICALLY KITTY CORNER FROM WHERE THE WHITE HOUSE IS, RIGHT ACROSS FROM THE TREASURY.

SO IT'S A REALLY GREAT LOCATION INSIDE THEIR FRONT LOBBY AND THAT ONE HAS, IT'S KIND OF HARD TO EXPLAIN, IT'S A BIG PROJECT AND I'M EXCITED ABOUT THAT.

I THINK I INCLUDED SOMETHING THAT I'M SUPPOSED TO BE DOING IN RENO, WHICH HAS THE LARGE TROUT COMING OUT OF THE WALL, THE SKETCH.

>>LORENE: OH, YES, YES, YES.

>>JOHN: THAT TROUT'S NAME IS DOUG.

IT'S ABOUT THE TRUCKEE RIVER, ABOUT THE RAINBOW TROUT AND ABOUT THIS AUSPICIOUS SIGN OF THE RAINBOW TROUT.

>>LORENE: WELL SEE, THAT'S WHAT I LOVE.

IT'S NOT JUST A FISH, YOU HAVE LAYERS OF THE HISTORY, THE BIOLOGY, THE ICHTHYOLOGY, EVERYTHING ABOUT THE FISH.

ONE THING I SHOULD HAVE ASKED YOU AT THE BEGINNING, HOW DO YOU CHOOSE, I MEAN, PEOPLE HIRE YOU, BUT WHEN DO YOU KNOW THAT THE SITE IS PERFECT FOR A TROMPE L'OEIL MURAL?

>>JOHN: THAT'S A REALLY GOOD QUESTION.

USUALLY I RESPOND TO THE ARCHITECTURE, LIKE WHAT CAN I DO WHAT THIS ARCHITECTURE.

CAN I BREAK INTO IT, CAN I PUSH OUT OF IT, CAN I DO BOTH, CAN I PEEL IT AND A LOT OF MY MORE RECENT PIECES, LIKE THE ONE IN MINNEAPOLIS, HAS LITTLE PIECES OF ARCHITECTURAL FOAM THAT ACTUALLY GO ABOVE, LIKE THE ROOF LINE AND THE ONE WITH THE DOUG, THE TROUT, LOOKS LIKE THE TROUT'S COMING OUT, BUT IT'S ACTUALLY JUST A LITTLE PIECE OF FOAM COMING OUT TO THE LEFT.

IT'S STILL ON A FLAT WALL, BUT I'M BREAKING THAT PICTURE PLANE A LITTLE AND IT HELPS WITH NOT JUST DOING SOMETHING INSIDE THE WALL, BUT ACTUALLY DOING SOMETHING WITH THE BUILDING MORE LIKE IT'S COMING OUT OR MOVING PAST JUST THAT PLANE.

>>LORENE: IS THERE ANYTHING PEOPLE SHOULD KEEP IN MIND WHEN THEY COME TO LOOK AT THIS KIND OF ART?

>>JOHN: TO LOOK FOR, I DO LIKE TO PUT IN SOME DISCOVERY LAYERS AND SOME MESSAGES, SO THERE ARE, SO I CAN GET SOME REPEAT VIEWINGS.

SO THERE'S ALWAYS SOMETHING THAT'S GOING TO BE MORE OBVIOUS AND THEN THERE'S GOING TO BE THINGS THAT ARE LAYERED IN THERE AND A LITTLE DEEPER.

SO THERE'S HOPEFULLY SEQUENTIAL DISCOVERY LAYERS THAT HELP UNFOLD SOMETHING ABOUT THE HISTORY OR HERITAGE OR ABOUT THE CULTURE OF THE PEACE IN THE AREA.

>>LORENE: YEAH AND I HOPE THAT YOU COME BACK TO SANTA FE FOR REASONS OTHER THAN PEOPLE ATTACKING YOUR BEAUTIFUL MURAL, BECAUSE WE REALLY LIKE YOU HERE.

>>JOHN: I LIKE SANTA FE.

>>LORENE: I WOULD JUST LIKE TO PUT A SHOUT OUT TO THE PEOPLE OF SANTA FE WHO MIGHT HAVE A BUILDING OR A STRUCTURE THAT THEY WOULD LIKE TO HAVE YOU WORK YOUR MAGIC ON, THAT WOULD BE REALLY WONDERFUL.

I KNOW YOU'D LIKE TO COME BACK AND WE'D LIKE TO HAVE YOU BACK.

>>JOHN: I'M NOT JUST SAYING IT BECAUSE I'M HERE, IT'S ON MY RADAR OF PLACES I REALLY LIKE TO BE.

THERE'S A MYSTICAL ENERGY HERE, THIS WHOLE NORTHERN PART OF NEW MEXICO AND I LOVE IT.

>>LORENE: YEAH, WELL WE LOVE HAVING YOU HERE AND SO I'M ESPECIALLY GLAD THAT YOU CAME TO BE ON REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

SO OUR GUEST TODAY IS JOHN PUGH, A WORLD RENOWNED MURALIST, TROMPE L'OEIL ARTIST.

LET ME SHOW YOU THE BOOK AGAIN BECAUSE ONCE YOU START LOOKING AT THESE THINGS, YOU CAN'T STOP.

THIS IS CALLED THE MURALS OF JOHN PUGH .

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US, THE NEXT TIME YOU'RE IN TOWN, I HOPE YOU COME BACK.

>>JOHN: WOW, OKAY, THAT WAS QUICK.

>>LORENE: YEAH, I KNOW, IT GOES VERY QUICKLY.

>>JOHN: IT SURE DOES.

>>LORENE: BUT THANK YOU, JOHN.

>>JOHN: OH, THANK YOU LORENE.

>>LORENE: AND I'M LORENE MILLS.

I'D LIKE TO THANK YOU, OUR AUDIENCE, FOR BEING WITH US TODAY ON REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM