DIFFERENCE TOGETHER.

WE CAN DRIVE CHANGE.

>> THE DEADLINE IS APPROACHING FOR MAYOR BRANDON JOHNSON TO DECIDE WHETHER TO RENEW THE CITY'S CONTRACT FOR THE CONTROVERSIAL TECHNOLOGY KNOWN AS SHOTSPOTTER.

THE TECHNOLOGY RELIES ON MICROPHONES AND SENSORS TO IDENTIFY THE SOUND OF GUNFIRE AND ALERT LAW ENFORCEMENT SUPPORTERS SAY IT'S A USEFUL TOOL FOR CHICAGO POLICE TO GET TO CRIME SCENES FASTER.

CRITICS SAY THE TECHNOLOGY IS UNRELIABLE AND CONTRIBUTES TO OVER POLICING IN COMMUNITIES OF COLOR.

JOINING US NOW ARE FORMER CHICAGO POLICE SUPERINTENDENT EDDIE JOHNSON ALDERMAN BRIAN HOPKINS OF THE SECOND WARD, ROBERT VARGAS, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF SOCIOLOGY AT THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO AND DIRECTOR OF THE U CHICAGO JUSTICE PROJECT AND FREDDIE MARTINEZ, THE DIRECTOR OF LUCY PARSONS LABS THAT SAY TRANSPARENCY, POLICE, ACCOUNTABILITY AND DIGITAL SECURITY NONPROFIT.

WE SHOULD KNOW.

WE DID ALSO REACH OUT TO SOUND THINKING THAT'S THE COMPANY BEHIND THE SHOTSPOTTER TECHNOLOGY.

THEY DECLINED OUR INVITATION.

I THINK THE 4 OF YOU FOR JOINING US.

JOHNSON TO YOU FIRST.

HOW USEFUL DID YOU FIND THE SHOTSPOTTER TECHNOLOGY WHEN YOU'RE SUPERINTENDENT CPD VERY USEFUL.

AND THANKS FOR HAVING ME ON.

YOU KNOW, WE STARTED THAT TECHNOLOGY AND AND I JUST GIVE YOU A PERFECT EXAMPLE.

SO WE STARTED IN 2 MOST VIOLENT DISTRICTS IN CHICAGO.

>> 7 DISTRICT 11 DISTRICT KINGWOOD AUSTIN ON THE WEST SIDE AND DOING THAT FOR 6 MONTHS.

WE SAW LIKE A 50% REDUCTION GUN VIOLENCE.

IN THE ENGLEWOOD AREA.

SO THAT ALONE SPEAKS HOW USEFUL IT CAN BE.

SO I'M I'M A FIRM BELIEVER IN IT.

I KNOW IT WORKS.

IT IT TAKES THE PLACE OF AND A LOT OF INSTANCES WHEN YOU PATROLLING NEIGHBORHOODS.

THAT'S A FOR A LOT GUNSHOT VIOLENCE.

THEY TEND TO STOP CALLING THE POLICE.

ONE THING ABOUT SHOTSPOTTER.

WE DON'T YOU KNOW, THAT'S NOT A PERSON HAS TO MAKE THE DECISION.

IT AUTOMATICALLY ALERTS THE POLICE AND SO WE CAN RESPOND MORE QUICKLY THAN WE EVER COULD BEFORE.

>> ROBERT VARGAS, WHAT'S YOUR CONCERN WITH THE USE OF SHOTSPOTTER?

WHY DO YOU THINK THE CONTRACT WITH THE CITY SHOULD NOT BE RENEWED?

WELL, I THINK THAT THERE'S LARGE BODY OF RESEARCH SHOTSPOTTER AND IT'S IMPORTANT DISTINGUISH BETWEEN.

>> STUDIES THAT HAVE BEEN SPONSORED BY A COMPANY SOUND THINKING STUDIES THAT ARE DONE INDEPENDENTLY AND ALSO STUDIES THAT ARE GOING IN THE CITY OF CHICAGO VERSUS STUDIES IN OTHER CITIES.

SO WHEN YOU FOCUS ON THE THAT HAVE SENATE CHICAGO AN INDEPENDENTLY, THE CONSENSUS IS THAT THIS IS A PRODUCT THAT DOES NOT DELIVER ON ITS PROMISES.

THAT AS STUDY RECENTLY BY CONGRESS AT UC SANTA BARBARA.

FINDING FACT I THINK AFTER YOUR TERM IN OFFICE THAT IT ACTUALLY INCREASES POLICE RESPONSE TIMES.

ESPECIALLY DURING HOURS OF THE SHIFT THERE, PARTICULARLY BUSY.

>> PRETTY ROUTINE AS WHAT KIND OF CONSTITUTIONAL QUESTIONS DO YOU THINK SHOTSPOTTER REES IS ON?

COULD LEAD OFFICERS CONDUCTING ILLEGAL STOPS SHORT ON AND THANK YOU FOR HAVING OWN DATA REFLECTS THEY'RE POLICE OFFICERS ARE USING HISTORICAL SHOTSPOTTER AS THE BASIS TO CREATE CREATE STOPS THAT THEY WOULD OTHERWISE NOT HAVE PROBABLE CAUSE TO DO.

AND SO THESE ARE ILLEGAL STOPS THAT ARE HAPPENING AND WHAT IS HAPPENING, WHAT PEOPLE ARE FINDING IS THAT THESE ARE DRIVING ARREST ARREST WOULD NOT OTHERWISE HAPPEN INTO WHAT WHAT THIS TECHNOLOGY DOES ACTUALLY PROMOTION MASS INCARCERATION AND IT'S A REAL LIABILITY FOR THE CITY.

SO YOU'RE SAYING THAT OFFICERS MIGHT HERE OR MIGHT BE AWARE THAT THEY'RE FREQUENTLY GUNSHOTS OR SHOTSPOTTER ALERTS IN AN AREA THEREFORE FOCUS THEIR ATTENTION ON THAT AREA.

WHETHER OR THERE'S A LEGITIMATE REASON.

THAT'S CORRECT.

>> REPORTS, INCLUDING AS YOU MENTIONED FROM THE CITY'S INSPECTOR GENERAL, HAVE SHOWN THAT THE TECHNOLOGY ISN'T ALWAYS RELIABLE, MISS IDENTIFYING SOME SOUNDS AT SHOTS WHEN THEY ARE NOT AND THEN MISSING SOME ACTUAL GUNSHOTS ENTIRELY.

MORE THAN ABOUT 500 TIMES.

ACCORDING TO REPORTS, ALDERMAN HOPKINS, YOU SEE THIS TECHNOLOGY IS RELIABLE AND WORTH OF THE SEVERAL MILLION DOLLARS A YEAR THAT THE CITY SPENDS ON IT.

ABSOLUTELY.

THERE'S NO QUESTION ABOUT ITS RELIABILITY.

IN FACT, IT'S MANDATED BY ITS OWN CONTRACT TO BE AT LEAST 90% ACCURATE.

SHOTSPOTTER DATA IN OTHER JURISDICTIONS AS WELL AS CHICAGO SUGGEST IT'S ABOUT 97% ACCURATE.

>> THAT'S PRETTY GOOD.

YOU KNOW, IT'S 100% PERFECTION.

IS THE GOAL?

I MEAN, THAT'S COMPLETELY UNREALISTIC FOR ANY TECHNOLOGY.

DON'T CARE WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

WE HAVE STREET LIGHTS IN THE CITY AND, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE OUT 5% OF THE TIME AS WELL.

SO SHOTSPOTTER DOES A VERY GOOD JOB DETECTING GUNFIRE TRIANGLE, WAITING IT LAYING THE POLICE KNOW WHERE IT'S LOCATED.

AND FROM THERE, IT'S A USEFUL TOOL FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT TO TAKE.

BUT AS FAR AS ITS RELIABILITY, I REALLY THINK THE DATA STRONGLY SUPPORTS THE SYSTEM ACTUALLY WORKS THE WAY IT'S PROMISED.

IT'S SOMETHING THAT WE NEED IN THE CITY GOING FORWARD.

I HOPE THE CONTRACT IS RENEWED.

IT'S REALLY WORTH 10 MILLION DOLLARS.

YOU'RE BECAUSE IT ACTUALLY SAVES LIVES.

>> FREDDIE OF, YOU KNOW, COMPARED TO THE REPORTS IN THE RESEARCH THAT WE'VE HEARD ABOUT THAT SAY THAT THE TECHNOLOGY IS FAULTY.

ARE WE AWARE THAT THERE BEEN ANY CHANGES TO THE TECHNOLOGY OVER THE YEARS?

SO THAT NUMBER IS EXTREMELY THE ASSUMPTION THAT THE COMPANY MAKES IS THAT 100% OF THEIR GUNSHOT ARE ACCURATE.

AND THEN WHAT THEY DO IS THEY BASICALLY.

SUBTRACT FROM THAT NUMBER.

AND THAT'S HOW THEY GET TO 97%.

THIS IS A STUDY THAT ON DATA REFLECTS.

AND SO FOR THE COMPANY TO COME OUT AND SAY THAT WE HAVE A 97% ACCURACY ON EXTREMELY BACK.

TYSON, EXTREMELY MISLEADING.

CAN JUST ADD SOMETHING I THINK I THINK THAT'S REALLY CHALLENGING.

IS THAT THE GOAL POST?

CONSTANTLY MOVING.

>> SO SOME THINKING NOW, WOULD ADMIT?

WROTE ROUGH.

CLARK IS HIS NAME IN OP-ED PUT OUT.

CAME FORTH WAS FORTHCOMING IN SAYING THAT BY ITSELF IS NOT IT'S NOT A CRIME, REDUCING TECHNOLOGY.

IT'S IT ACCOMPANIED WITH A NUMBER OF OTHER TECHNOLOGIES.

AND AND SO WHAT MAKES THE CHALLENGE IN THE DISCOURSE AROUND?

REALLY HARD.

IS THAT SO I'M THINKING HE'S DEPLOYING A TACTIC THAT IS COMMON INDUSTRIES THAT ARE TRYING TO ALLUDE REGULATION TO MOVE THE COAL POST AND AND PREVENT CANCELLATIONS OF THE CONTRACTS LET ME JUMP QUICKLY.

>> SO, LISTEN, THIS IS FROM SOMEONE WHO'S ACTUALLY SEEN HOW THE TECHNOLOGY WORKS AND SEEING THE BENEFITS OF IT.

AND I CAN ABSOLUTELY TELL YOU KEEPS NEIGHBORHOODS SAFER BECAUSE AS I THINK ONE OF YOU ARE JUST MENTIONED, IT INCREASES OUR RESPONSE TIME.

WE GET THERE A LOT QUICKER THAN WE NORMALLY WOULD.

IT TAKES THE PLACE OF PEOPLE WHO DISENFRANCHISED.

DON'T WANT TO CALL THE POLICE.

WE SHOT SOME INFIGHTING IN NEIGHBORHOODS SO THAT HELPS US TO GET THERE.

AND THE OTHER THING TOO, YOU THEY MAKE ARRESTS BASED OFF OF IF REST LAWFUL LEGAL.

REST.

I SULLIVAN A TERRIBLE I HAVE NEVER HAD PERSON IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY OR HISPANIC COMMUNITY SAY TO ME THEN AND WANT MORE POLICE THERE.

ONE UPSET BECAUSE WE MADE TOO MANY FOR UNLAWFUL, UNLAWFUL ACTIVITIES.

>> EDDIE JOHNSON, GIVE US A SENSE OF HOW POLICE OFFICER RESPONDS TO SHOTSPOTTER ALERT.

I WOULD IMAGINE THE ARE GOING IN WITH THE IMPRESSION THAT SHOTS HAVE BEEN FIRED AND THEY'RE WEARING AND THEIR RESPONSE IS PROBABLY HEIGHTENED, CORRECT?

THAT'S THAT'S ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.

SO THEY ONE OF THE I THINK ROBIN MENTIONED IS THAT IT?

>> IT WAS A LOT OF TECHNOLOGIES TOGETHER.

SHOTSPOTTER WAS ONE PIECE OF IT.

SO WE ALSO GAVE THE FIELD OFFICES CELL PHONES SO THEY COULD GO RIGHT TO THEM AND THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO BE DISPATCHED AT WHICH YOU KNOW, THAT, CRAIG, NOW A LOT OF LAG TIME GETTING SO WHEN THEY DO GET THAT CALL DID NOT GOING OUT WITH GUNS BLAZING, BUT THEY THEY DO HAVE A HEIGHTENED SENSE.

THE SHOTS HAVE BEEN FIRED.

SO BEFORE WHEN WE GET THESE CALLS WITHOUT THE SHOTSPOTTER TECHNOLOGY, MIGHT GET A PHONE CALL FROM A CITIZEN.

INSTEAD, I GOT SHOTS FIRED OUTSIDE HOUSE WHERE AS SHOTS BY DO TAKE US TO THE EXACT LOCATION BECAUSE WE KNOCK ON DOOR AND ASK A PERSON WITH THE SHOTS COME FROM.

I DON'T KNOW.

BUT I JUST HEARD ABOUT SHOTSPOTTER WILL PUT US RIGHT MET IN THAT AREA.

WE CAN LOOK FOR BALLISTICS EVIDENCE AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE.

SO THEIR SENSES ARE HEIGHTENED THAT THEY DON'T GET OUT WITH THEIR GUNS DRAWN THINGS LIKE THAT.

AS WE MENTIONED, ONE HAS BEEN FROM COMMUNITY GROUPS WHO BELIEVE THAT BLACK AND BROWN COMMUNITIES THAT'S SHOTSPOTTER CONTRIBUTES TO THE OVER-POLICING OF BLACK AND BROWN COMMUNITIES.

FREDDIE, WHAT WHAT WOULD YOU SAY IS THE IMPACT OF THIS KIND OF TECHNOLOGY ON COMMUNITIES OF COLOR IN PARTICULAR?

I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT FOR US TO SET THE STAGE THAT THIS TECHNOLOGY IS NOT RELIABLE UNLIKE OTHER TECHNOLOGIES LIKE YOU, I CANCEL A LIGHT BULB WITHOUT IT BEING TESTED.

AND INSTEAD WHAT IS HAPPENING IS TECHNOLOGY LIKE SHOTSPOTTER ARE BEING USED TO BASICALLY CREATE A TESTING LAB OF BLACK AND BROWN FOR SIGNS THAT DOESN'T EXIST.

AND THAT'S REALLY TROUBLING.

AND OF COURSE, YOU CAN SEE WHY BLACK AND BROWN COMMUNITIES WOULD NOT WANT THIS IN THEIR NEIGHBORHOODS.

>> ALDERMAN CPD, WE KNOW AND WE KNOW THAT JOHNSON, THE SUPERINTENDENT AT THE TIME, BUT CPD HAS A WHOLE HOST OF SORT OF TECHNOLOGY-BASED CRIMEFIGHTING CENTERS DEPLOYED AROUND THE IN TANDEM WITH THE SHOTSPOTTER TECHNOLOGY.

IF NOT RENEWED.

DOES THAT RENDER SOME OF THOSE USELESS AND WILL COME JOHNSON AFTER THIS.

IT'S CERTAINLY A STEP BACKWARDS.

WE NEED TO BE GOING FORWARD WITH OUR USE TECHNOLOGY.

WE HAVE 2 NEW HELICOPTERS THAT ARE ON ORDER THAT WE SHOULD GET.

HOPEFULLY THIS YEAR.

>> THAT CAN PROVIDE AERIAL SURVEILLANCE.

WE HAVE LICENSE PLATE CHARACTER READERS DEPLOYED THROUGHOUT THE CITY, BOTH FIXED AND MOBILE LOCATIONS.

WE HAVE OUR STRATEGIC DECISION SUPPORT CENTERS THAT ARE MONITORED.

24 HOURS A DAY.

>> WE'RE TRAINED PERSONNEL ARE WATCHING CAMERAS THAT HAVE VIEW OF CERTAIN AREAS THAT, YOU KNOW, WE WE HAVE TO PAY MORE ATTENTION TO SHOTSPOTTER FITS RIGHT INTO THAT.

I THINK WE CAN DO A BETTER JOB OF TYING ALL THESE TOOLS OF TECHNOLOGY TOGETHER AND AND MAKING MORE EFFICIENT USE OF THEM.

IF WE DO RENEW THE SHOTSPOTTER CONTRACT, THERE ARE SOME THINGS THAT WE CAN DO THAT WE'RE NOT CURRENTLY DOING RIGHT NOW.

THAT WILL ADD VALUE TO THAT 10 MILLION DOLLARS THAT WE'RE SPENDING TO ANALYZE MICRO TRENDS IN SMALL AREAS.

WE CAN DEPLOY VIOLENCE INTERRUPTERS LIKE OUR CEASE-FIRE AND CURE VIOLENCE IN CHICAGO CRED.

WE CAN SEND THEM TO AREAS WHEN WE ARE TOLD BY SHOTSPOTTER THAT GUNFIRE IS INCREASING BECAUSE THE 9-1-1 CALLS A SUPERINTENDENT JOHNSON MENTIONED.

ALL RIGHT.

THE 9-1-1 CALLS DON'T TRACK WITH THE GUNFIRE INCIDENTS.

IN FACT, 80% OF THE GUNFIRE INCIDENTS THAT SHOTSPOTTER TRACKS DO NOT HAVE A CORRESPONDING 9-1-1.

CALL.

WE WOULDN'T KNOW ABOUT IT AT ALL.

IF IT WASN'T FOR SHOTSPOTTER.

COUPLE SECONDS LEFT JOHNSON ARE THOSE HOW CHANGED ARE THEY WITHOUT SHOTSPOTTER?

YOU KNOW WHAT?

THAT WOULD DEFINITE PUNCH IN THE GUT.

YOU >> SHOTSPOTTER IS A CRITICAL PIECE OF THAT.

IT RENDER THE CENTER'S USES, BUT IT'S DEFINITELY LIKE OBAMA MENTIONED.

IT'S STEP BACK, YOU KNOW, AND I JUST THINK THAT THE CITY WOULD WOULD WOULD REALLY BENEFIT BY CONTINUING THIS TECHNOLOGY.

AND I JUST GIVE YOU A QUICK EXAMPLE.

WHEN I STARTED WITH A SHOTSPOTTER, IT WOULD ALERT US TODAY THAT ONE PLACE THAT THE GUNFIRE ERUPTED FROM AND THEY'VE ASKED IT TO THE POINT WE THEN TRACE OF THE PERSON KEPT FIRING.

IT WOULD THEN GIVE US A TRACK OF WHERE THAT PERSON RAN, TOO.

SO IT INCREASES US.

TO THE POINT OF A POLICE EXPERT.

HE'S LIKE I THINK POLICE PERSPECTIVE IS IS VALUABLE.

>> BUT, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU LOOK AT VIOLENCE INTERRUPTERS PHILANTHROPY OR THE PUBLIC VALUE IS FILING SINCE REPRESENT SEPARATES INTERRUPTED.

YOU THINK THIS IS GOOD.

NOW THERE'S THERE'S VERY, VERY RIGOROUS EXPERIMENTS THAT ALL OF HIS VAN PREVENTION PROGRAMS THAT ARE ARE SUBJECTED CRIME.

IS THERE OTHER OTHER?

AND SO YOU MENTION YOU, BASS EARLY ON POLICE EXPERTISE.

THE POLICE RELY ON OUTSIDE FANS ALL THE TIME.

UNFORTUNATELY, YOU CAN'T JUST PAY ATTENTION TO THE RESULTS THAT YOU FIND.

>> NOT GOING TO SOLVE IT ALL HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE.

BUT THANKS TO ROBERT VARGAS, FREDDIE MARTINEZ ALDERMAN BRIAN HOPKINS AND FORMER SUPERINTENDENT EDDIE JOHNSON TAKES EVERYBODY.

THANK YOU.

AND THE CITY'S COMMUNITY COMMISSION FOR PUBLIC SAFETY AND ACCOUNTABILITY IS HOLDING A HEARING ON SHOTSPOTTER TECHNOLOGY TOMORROW EVENING AT 6.30, AT SAINT SABINA'S CHURCH.

YOU CAN VISIT OUR WEBSITE FOR MORE DETAILS.

UP NEXT, WE EXPLORE GOSPELS ROOTS IN CHICAGO.

>> CHICAGO, TONIGHT'S COVERAGE