Yeah.

Welcome to the Aaron Harbor show.

This is part one of a special two part series with Josh Bolton, the CEO of the Business Roundtable, and the former white House chief of staff for President George W Bush.

Josh, great to have you on the show, man.

Thanks for having me.

Hey, it's good to see.

Of course, your fame has been, having taken all kinds of public service positions.

You were George H.W.

Bush's chief of staff in the white House.

You headed up the Office of Management and Budget.

I do want to ask you abou reconciliation and other issues.

So we can go into detail on that, but, but let's start off with, what does the white House chief of staff do?

I kno you're going to say everything.

No.

Oh, good.

And in fact, you you mentione that I was the budget director and that I had that job for three years before I, was elevated to the job of chief of staff.

And I remember a frien coming up to me and saying, oh, my gosh, you've been you know, you've had seven years already with President Bush because I had two years on the campaign.

I had two years.

You were what?

Policy director?

Policy director of the Bush 2000 campaign?

I was the deputy chief of staff for policy for two years.

And then I was the budget director for three years.

So I already had, quite, you know, quite a bit of time under my belt.

So that's why we were all surprised that he appointed you chief of staff.

Well, no, no, no, no one more than I. But, a friend of mine came to me.

He said, you know how how can you do this?

You must be exhausted you know, after the seven years, how how are you able to take on the chief of staff job?

And, I blurted out the truth, which is, thank God I don't have to be the budget director anymore, because that is a hard, hard job.

All right, tell tell us a little.

You know, a lot of people, but some people have heard of the Office of Management and Budget in the executive office of the president, but most people don't pay any attention to it.

The few who do our times when, you know, budget activities are occurring, you know, or they're in the headlines, but it is head of OMB.

What do you really do?

You reflect the president's priorities in the budget.

So you, the budget director, has to work out with every component of government what the president's budget is going to propose to spend on that activity.

And those are important decisions.

I mean, you and you, you set your priorities by, in most respects, by what you spend money on in government.

And then you got, sell it to the Congress and, you know, deal with 535 bosses every one of whom thinks they own a piece of the budget director, when you really should be responding to the president.

So it's a fabulous job for anybody who's a, government policy nerd, as I am.

And I know you are.

But it's also a really wearing job because, like many things in government, but even more so in this job, you're called on to make important decisions about things that you really it's hard to feel that you know enough to be making those decisions because they're for the budget director.

It's thousands of decision across a whole range of things.

So my relief when I became chief of staff was that as chief of staff, you, you're you're running the staff for the president, the white House staff.

But you get to focus on what's important to the president and that that makes the job.

Not just a luxury, but a real privilege.

How did you How did you meet George W Bush?

You know, I served in the Bus 41 administration, George H.W.

H.W.

Bush.

And how how did that occur?

I started out, professional life as a lawyer, and I got, into international trade.

My my first job after clerking was at the State Department, where I was interested in things international.

I became an international trade lawyer for the trade representative.

Well, eventually, but I did that in private practice for a couple of years, and then a job opened up on the hill to be the chief trade lawyer for the Republicans in the Senate.

And, then from there, it was a natural jump to become the chief trade lawyer for, the U.S.

Trade representative.

So I served in that capacity, for three years.

And then in the last year, I had a chance to go work in the white House in government affairs.

And, so I had a good window on, the for as president George H.W.

Bush.

But not not really an significant person or contact.

And then, I went off to work in London, when I was home.

My home is DC.

So I went into the local business.

But after the end of the Bush 41 administration, I went to work in London and I was home at Christmas and I got a call.

This would be Christmas of 98.

And I got a call, saying you'd been recommended as somebody who might be good for the policy staff of a presidential campaign for George W Bush, should he decide to run.

And I thought, okay, what the heck?

I you know, I didn't have anything better to do.

I went and met the guy who was suppose to become the campaign manager, who was a former congressman who was the head of lobbying for one of the bi telecom companies in Washington.

We had a good visit.

He sent me down to Texas to meet the governor, whom I had never met.

And we hit it off and all of a sudden, I, I had a job on a campaign, leaving a really good job with a big investment bank in London.

So my, my financial prospects adjusted very rapidly downward.

Yeah.

But it was a fabulous experience being on that campaign, especially being the policy director, because it was something that then Governor Bush took seriously.

It was a tim when campaigns were more policy oriented than they are today.

And I had a chance myself to go to school.

I ran George W Bush University for a year, where he was preparing himself, to be the best president he could possibly be.

And so I, you know, it was my job to bring in all the experts and do the brief, organize the briefing papers.

And in that process, I had t learn along with the governor, who who I discovered was an extremely intelligent guy.

But he his policy focus had been on state kind of issues, not on national issues.

And he and I learned national issues together.

And I had I've always felt that was, probably the most educational job I've had in, in my career.

Yeah.

I mean, I know you weren't close to his dad, but, you certainly had the opportunity to serve and experience both.

How would you contrast the two?

I mean I always thought of George H.W.

as, you know, very patrician, almost very serious, an extraordinary patriot committed to the country, you know, serving in a number of roles now, someone who seemed to m to be concerned about everybody.

And George W Bush.

I mean, what fascinated me about him was, how he was mischaracterized intentionally, especially during the campaign, you know, it's not being very bright, etc.

and all that.

But if you simply paid attention to his background, clearly that wasn't the case.

My story, my my Bush two story is I was invited to the inauguration, and went to the Wyoming to Washington Ball, which was very tiny, because, of course, Dick Chene was elected as vice president.

And so that's that event, very small number of how I got to stand in, a riser at the back.

So I had this great view, and they the two couples walked in and the back and, well, Lynne Cheney introduced, gave a short talk, introduce Dick.

Dick gave a short talk and then introduced Mrs.

Bush, Laura Bush, and then, she introduced, the, the president elect.

And he proceeded totally off the cuff.

No teleprompter.

No, no.

Sorry to give such, and, articulate and elegant speech and, and I, you know, it' my first time seeing him live, and and you just couldn't help if you had any objectivity watching and listening to to his how he delivered to the content, you couldn't help but say, you know, what a sham that people, you know, of course he won, you know, so grossly mischaracterized this man.

And, and it also gave me the sense that, you know, this this guy's going to try to really try to do a good job in that, 43, as we call him.

Right?

41 and 43 was very similar to 41, what, 43 used to say in describing the difference between, him and his father is he says, I, I'm told I got my father's eyes and my mother's mouth and and that really describes it.

I mean, say, Barbara Bush was unfiltered and out there that that was not 41 style.

He is very even keeled, civil, restrained, 43 personality.

Is is very abuela and, and outgoing and, combative.

And that was the personality he he brought to the Oval Office.

To your point, your stor about having seen him in person, you probably came in with the same impressio that most Americans had a boy.

He seems he may not be up for up to this job.

And you saw him in person and you said, this guy is the real deal.

As chief of staff, I would very often be in meetings with the president with, you know, people would come into the Oval Office and have a session with him.

And almost invariably somebody who would never been in the presence of George W Bush before would come up to me afterwards and say, why doesn't the country see that guy?

And I, you know, I would always I my only my best answer was, staff failure.

We're just not doing a good job of reflecting, but but he also has the kind of personality that that, and that many great politicians have is it's, it's strongest when when you're physically right, one more, one on one physically in his presence.

And it's stronger when you get something more than a 22nd soundbite when he also, you know, there were times when he would misspeak.

All the time I was I was there at it was a campaign speech when he used the word nice underestimate.

And, I was I was designated because I was the policy guy.

For some reason, it fell to the policy guy to tell the candidate that he had said misunderstood me, and he came off stage and he said I said, yeah, that was terrific.

Except you used a word.

That's not a word.

It's it's underestimate.

And he said, yeah, that's not a word.

And I said, well, you said it.

He said, no, I didn't.

And I said, yes, you did.

He said, no, I didn't.

So we had to go look at the tape.

Oh my God, you actually did that.

Well, you got to tell him.

Yeah.

You got to tell.

Well, I mean you actually looked at the record.

Yeah.

Hey what happened?

He went oh, okay.

So, he he eventually ended up being proud of of some of his mangling of the English languages.

I mean, it was a good source of humor.

Yeah.

And he was deeply disappointed when, he met, the longtim producer of Saturday Night Live.

Lorne.

Oh, yeah.

Michael.

Sorry.

Michael.

Lorne Michaels.

Yeah.

So he met him toward the end of his presidency, and Michaels told him that a couple of the words that they used to lampoon Bush, they made up that he had actually not said to them.

And he was very disappointed that he personally had not said those words.

Anyway.

He wa there is a great character and, people who worked for him loved working for him, and it just made a huge difference, at a, at a difficult time in our country's history.

I mean, the, the eight years of the Bush presidency, it started with 911 and it ended with the financial crisis.

And in between we had Hurricane Katrina.

We, we fought two unpopular hot wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

There were financial crises.

So, I mean, there was a lot that I blame you for all those things.

I think you, well, you know, tell me.

But I mean, you know, when it comes to highlights and lowlights, talk a little bit about that.

I mean, nine, 11 I mean, an extraordinary event in our history.

An you were in the middle of that.

I was I was at the time I was the deputy chief of staff.

But I was the acting chief of staff in the white House at the time because the chief of staff, my predecessor, Andy Card, was traveling with the president.

They were, he was being the education president.

He was pushing legislatio called the No Child Left Behind Act that he and Laura Bush were big advocates for.

And they had made good company with, then chair of the relevant committee in the Senate, Ted Kennedy, a very Partizan Democrat.

But they they made they made a connection, and they were making good progress.

Bush was on that particular day, shortly after the Labor Day break, he was in Florida reading to a bunch of kids in a school to promote the education agenda to.

I was left behind and the vice president was in the white House.

And so I ended up spending most of the day of 911 in a bunker that is below the white House used to be classified that there was a bunker.

Now it's publicly that there is a bunker.

I just can't tell you where it is.

I'm not sure I could find it today.

Anyway, it's under the press room.

Swimming pool?

No, you you can actually go.

Look, it's not under there.

And, that was, that was a searing day.

But one that I think brought out some of the, the best qualities of leadership in not just President Bush but other senior people in the administration jump to the, financial crisis.

I mean, in 2008, I mean, that was one o that wasn't a single day event.

So you and especially with your background, in law and finance as well, on policy, what what role did you play, in that?

Because a lot of huge decisions, involvin billions of dollars were made.

Yeah.

Well, when, during the financial crisis, I had the same role as chief of staff that I did on everything else which was, first and foremost, make sure the president has everything he needs to be the best president he can possibly be.

So my job during the financial crisis, was to, to hel channel the flow of information, to put in front of him the right advisors, and make sure that he was able to make timely decisions wit as much information as possible.

And that was hard because the financial crisis was moving so rapidly with so many unprecedented things happening.

That it was it was hard to keep up the the most important contribution I made to the finance, to the I think, successful resolution of the financial crisis, was in recruiting Hank Paulson to be the Treasury secretary.

It took it took three tries, before he was willing to come in to the administration.

But thank goodness he did, because he, in combination with then Fed Chair Ben Bernanke and the then, president of the New York Fed, which is critical in a financial crisis.

That was Timothy Geithner, who became the Obama's treasury secretary.

That then that trio, did a did a remarkable job of, giving the president the advice that he needed to take some very dramatic steps, and to pivot when, when things weren't, weren't working.

And, Bush was super flexible during that period.

He, he was prepared to pivot when the advisers said, we need to do something differently.

And he always saying, if things aren't working, things are not working.

And, we got to do something different.

And he always wanted to hear from all three of them.

He, you know, whenever one of them would give him advice, he'd say, what are the other what do you think What are the other two saying?

He was he was very good at that as chief of staff.

That was a scary period for me and in its own way, scarier than nine, 11, nine, 11 was horrifying.

The, the destruction, the loss of life, the, the shift in America to essentially a war footing against terrorism, was really searing.

But we knew who the enemy was.

We figured it out pretty rapidly who the enemy was, and we knew what our job was.

Find those people and eliminate them.

Make sure that the country is hardened and in our defenses are hardened in a way that something like this can never happen again.

So as a as a white House staffer, for me, that was it was a horrifying period.

But it wasn't beyond the initial day of 911.

It wasn't that scary.

The financial crisis was scary because we never knew when we went to bed, if we went to bed, what was going to happen in the overnight markets and what we might be facing the next morning, and what sort of measure the government needed to take to prevent what was threatening to be as as bad a crisis for the global economy as the Great Depression in the 30s, and possibly even worse.

Do you think?

A couple quick questions.

I mean, it's also interesting that, you know, President, Obama pretty much followed, the structure that, that, that, President Bush had had created.

What do you think would have happened if the federal government had not intervened?

Oh, I think we would have had a meltdown in the markets in a depression, global depression.

I remember, Hank Paulson came in, having earlier advise the president, no, we shouldn't get the government involved in the private sector.

Yeah, private sector stuff.

We, you know let let's of capitalist markets, let the free markets and and then Paulson came in and said, Mr.

President, we're we're going to we're going to have to go ask for a lot of money from the Congress to, to stabilize the banks, whom everybody blamed for causing the crisis in the first place.

So that's a pretty difficult political pill, i that we're going to we're going to need hundreds of billions of dollars to bail out the guy who allowed the guys who who many, most people believe cause the problem in the first place.

So a tough political pill.

But, Bush didn't reall he didn't really flinch at that.

And, and said, we're going to have to go to the Congress and ask for, I think Paulson said 700 billion.

And Bush asked, how did you come up with 700 billion?

He said, a trillion sounded too big.

Because we had no idea.

We I mean, we thought, okay, 700 billion probably ought to be able to do it.

And he went around and this was in the, not in the Cabinet room, but in the Roosevelt Room at the white House, which which has, you know, a conference table.

They concede about 16 or 18 people around it.

And he had enough right in front of him.

Paulson making this recommendation.

And, flanked by, Fed Chair Bernanke and New York Fed Chair Geithner and the president turned to Ben Bernanke.

And he said, and I know I know, you're an expert on the, the Great Depression that you wrote your dissertation about that.

He said, what happens if we don't do what I think is recommending?

And Bernanke said very good chance it'll be a depression like the Great Depression and possibly worse.

So I have absolutely no doubt that the president took a politically very unpopular step with the bailout.

I was against it while most people were and most Republicans were against it.

We had a really hard time persuading the Republican members of the House.

In fact, the first time we put it up, it failed and the market lost.

I remember it was a 700 points I don't know, today, 700 points is not a big portion of it.

Now, 700 points back then would probably be like literally 7000 points today, you know?

And I'll, I'll check my arithmetic, but I bet it's, you know, it's that order of magnitude.

It was huge.

And so we, you know, we we took it back in.

We, you know, did some consulting, we we decided to go work with the Senate for a while.

Maybe they pay more reasonable.

And eventually, we got it through.

But it was a a super unpopular decision, which, in my judgment, saved the world from a global depression, number one.

And number two did not cost the Treasury a penny.

In other words, that 700 billion all came back to the U.S governmen when the government unwound its.

And, you know, when the system was stabilized and the government took they, took the investments back in.

There were some elements of the financial rescue that did cost the Treasury some money.

Like the bailout of the, the auto giants, which was, which we had proposed in the Bush administration.

But the Obama administration, executed on some of that mone came back pretty nicely, though.

Yeah, yeah, but but no all of the auto money came back.

And there were other bits and pieces that didn't come back, but overall, it there was no substantia loss to the Treasury from the, the bailout that most Americans don't understand, that most Americans don't even know that well, and most Americans don't even remember the the 2008.

Yeah, the 2008 episode but it's a it's a good reminder that you've got to have political leadership that's responsive to the people that elected them better leaders willing to willing to do hard things, unpopular, unpopular things that we don't have to say more.

I'm sorry.

Josh.

Well, I'd like to think we have some leader who do not meet that standard.

But, but Bush was unusual in that.

And, credit to the both the Democratic and Republican leadership in the Congress, which ultimately came around and, and supported the measures that needed to be taken.

And credit to President Obama, who built on and strengthened some of the, some of the measures that were taken in a way that stabilized the banking system.

Yeah.

With and and really with an investment of, approximately equal size.

All right.

Well, I want to thank you for joining me.

We're going to continue this conversation.

So I'm going to ask the audience to stay tuned for more.

But remember, this is part on of our special two part series.

So make sure you watch part two I'm Erin Harbert.

Thanks for watching.

We'll see you next time.

Yeah.

So.

Yeah.

I'm Aaron, host of the Aaron Harbor show.

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