[ ♪♪♪ ] Coming up in the next hour on Arizona PBS, on Arizona horizon, the journalist's roundtable, including the legislature work on yet another tempt to expand the state school voucher program and on break-it-down, how race impacts business and entrepreneurship.

And that's ahead on Arizona PBS.

Good evening and welcome to Arizona horizon.

I'm Ted Simons.

It's Friday and time for this week's journalist's roundtable and joining us and howie Fisher and Jonathan Cooper of the associated press and Jeremy Duda of Axios phoenix and howie, vouchers and 2018, they were overwhelmingly rejected and an expansion was rejected and put the end of that story.

>> Of course, it did, but as one of the pastors who testified, ha that was four years ago and Arizona voted for trump in 2016 and not for them in 2020 and I was ready for republican's heads to explode for that one.

This is a different plan and they put in an interesting poisoned pill and two bills in there and one is this universal vouchers and 1.1 million kids to go to private or and 200 million which is permanent and one-time money.

It's built in a way that if, in fact, the voucher plan doesn't become law or save or schools, refers it to the ballot as they did four years ago, then all of the school money goes away and say, hey, we think we've got him here.

>> I think, again, the universal aspect here is what is different and raising a lot of antennas, because, I mean, certain groups of kids and families apply and this means that everyone, right?

>> It does.

You know, this proposal goes much further than the 2018 proposal did as far as the number of children that would be covered.

And you know, the poison pill aspect is different, the politics it creates.

If the save-our-school's folks refer that to the ballot, it creates a whole new argument around cutting funding for education.

>> That's a point pill, Jeremy, and a risky gamble, is it not?

>> That's what the supporters are hoping it's a gamble than what they in 2018.

When I spoke with save-our-schools, the fact if it gets voted down, it will make folks who voted again it will strike down this expansion against it.

The more important part, right now, it's very unlikely we see what happens because they doesn't have the support to pass it.

Republicans, you know, only have a one-vote majority and three republicans in the house, all session and last year holding up these continual plans for universal ESA expansion and Joanne Osborne, Michelle Udall brought her around and Michelle is not a supporter.

>> That's the key, because the other owed-up hold-up is a budget and we want close to that billion dollars with new money and why the Supreme Court said you can't legally do that and wait, voters said we want 900 billion of additional million and if they give up 200 million, this will get worked out in the budget because this is politically unacceptable to tell voters, no, we're sorry.

>> If it does get worked out and the 400 billion gets closer to what voters wanted and because voters wanted we need to do this and that's the grand bargain.

If that money shoots up, that does that change the dynamic?

>> Absolutely.

You throw in that money to appease Boyer and lose money from Michelleism Michelle Ugenti-Rita.

It's still out there and hasn't changed.

There the budget, the draft budget that came out a week ago has, like, 300 million in tax cuts which goes to schools and they'll backfill for the schools if you don't have the tax cuts, the Jay kind Kauffmans will say no how.

They don't have a working republican majority there.

We're rapidly approaching the end and I do not see a path forward.

>> Is this symbolic and I was wasopposed?

>> Most of the republicans believe and support it and love it and a lot of people that support school choice and want this expanded.

A lot of supporters have been working on this and this is the last chance and as howie mentioned, a couple weeks.

If they can't reach a deal on the budget, we may be here on a shutdown government and this is the last chance.

>> But it's not.

That's the funny thing.

Look at redistricting and look at what the place will look like.

>> Last chance this year.

A lot of people are saying to the republicans, wait a second, you are going to have much more of a working majority next year, it looks like, barring something unusual happening.

And you may or may not have a republican governor, but the chances of that are decent, you know, given what the Democrats have offered so far.

So why not bait wait so you don't hold out for one person in the house or senate.

>> Answer the question, why not wait?

>> Some of these people are campaigning for higher office, Michelle Ugenti-rita, we'll talk about her later and Shawnna Bolick, some of them are not coming become.

So it's somewhat symbolic?

>> There's a democratic governor that would veto any expansion.

>> And worth noting, they'll refer this to the ballot if it passes and I would imagine they'll be able to do that.

Four years, they started from scratch and they have a much more organized group and it's way too late to get something on the ballot measure, new ballot measure and will be once that three-window is and this will be on hold until the 2024 election.

>> Right.

>> So pretty much unlikely that if it passes, that it could go into effect before 2025 to begin with.

>> Interesting.

Jonathan, I want you to comment on the fact that apparently, there's a push for a ban on children attending drag shows and when did this become a thing in.

thing?

>> This emerged over the past week or so and we've seen legislation to ban drag shows and the senate, republican leadership wanted to do it here and a lot of questions still to be answered to define a drag show.

But, yes.

>> And that's the problem, social things like critical race theory and the republicans are looking for social issues to go ahead and divide folks and get them to see things from a republican perspective and as Jonathan points out, if you say children cannot watch men in drag, OK, we understand, you know, maybe you don't want them at a closed event.

Can you watch Tootsi and Mrs. doubtfire.

>> What about mon t ty Pythoy.

>> It was set by a drag show at a Tucson drag show and This is the kind of thing where, you know, they would go, that's not rightright?

>> Kids were handing the performers dollars and so, I could see there would be people who would think it's not appropriate for kids to give drag shows dollars at a strip show, but how do -- under the first amendment, how do you ban this without a whole other host of things without targeting the LGBTQ expect and ban kids going to drag shows because their explicit.

But what about taking your kids to hooters or something to that's non-nude and sexually explicit?

>> These are the same republicans who say choice and we talked to the issue of parents having the ability to decide what their children see and everything else.

What if mom and dad want to take junior to watch the gay pride parade on seventh street and I'm sorry, that's a felony and we'll take your child away which is what they're considering in Texas.

>> Is this part of a grooming thing and we did candidates for public instruction.

What is grooming?

Is this what they're talking about?

>> You hear the same rhetoric around the issue.

As Jeremy said, children handing dollar billing to the bills to the performers in another state.

>> What grooming?

Have you seen these little girls that they dress up in the make-up and the wigs for these talentstalent show.

>> They're still little girls, howie.

It sounds nothing has been crafted and up in the air.

>> The last two weeks of session, bigger fish to fry and one republican senator out of town and God only knows who else is leaving and most people figured they would be on vacation and hard to see this is the priority everybody puts their shoulder behind trying to stop the government from shutting down in two weeks.

>> It's been a few days since they floated this proposal and we still haven't seen a bill introduced.

>> We had the Secretary of State debate on Arizona horse and ShaArizona horizon andwhat do we take of this?

>> First of all, mark Finchham, the most distrust and from the folks, ShawnnaBolick would not have signed off, at least at first and senator Ugenti-rita raised and nothing to do that and demand a audit and you shall sign it and aside from that, no grounds to not sign it outside of made-up claims.

>> TalkingWe're talking chief election's office.

>> It's a minimum ministerial act and unless you have some evidence, hard evidence that the numbers were cooked, you have no choice and this is the fight that's going on right now in new Mexico where the election's officials in one of the counties said, we're not going to certify.

The state Supreme Court said, yes you will.

Let's say mark Finchham and Bolick gets elected, there could be a crisis because they want an audit and I believe something is wrong here and, look, there's not a lot of time between the first week of November and the end of November when it has to be certified and the first week of January when Congress goes ahead and counts those electoral votes.

>> Jonathan, obviously a republican primary with the candidates and This is the kind of thing republican voters want to hear, you would not certify their votes because you have a question?

>> There's a huge chunk that wants to hear that, yes.

You know, and I think it's telling in a lot of cases where you have republicans saying, you know, well one know, there's no mechanism in the law to not sign it or something like that.

Still not standing up and vouching for the veracity and accuracy of the election system and they're trying to deal with the reality that a huge sizeable chunk of the republican party believes something was amiss.

>> We saw this with four our five republicans saying we did our own review and certain republicans who say that the stop-the-steal people are crazy and who turns out at some of these primary.

Something else that Shawnna Bolick said and replacing electors with the electors decided to chose which would usurp the will of the voters and she went around that and Michelle Ugenti-rita, it needed a majority and this is a chief election's officer saying the legislature gets to choose, not you?

>> Sure, after this bill was introduced, it got a lot of negative attention and there was a planned amendment and bipartisan commission and we're going to investigate things and require a two-thirds vote to change anything and that's not what the bill said.

It said the legislature by a simple majority vote for any reason can absolutely disregard the results of the presidential election and that, I think, I think for most people and evidence by the fact it never went anywhere, election integrity is the phrase of the race.

And that means a lot of different things to a lot of people.

Is that banning ballot harvesting systems, stricter voter I.D.

or changing the electioning.

>> That's what the hearings are on January 6th, that the vice president could conclude the results are inaccurate and legislators under the constitution have to determine who the electors are.

We haven't done done that but that becomes a problem.

>> Go we have a favorite in this race?

Is the trump candidate the favorite so far?

>> I don't think I've seen any poling.

>> I think under the conventional wisdom is pinchham pinchham Finchham is the favorite and he just started spending on TV ads and a lot of voters don't have any idea.

>> I think it will tricky for beau lane who is the moderate in the race, if you want to call this righter and rightest and how late is it?

Early ballots are gout in going out and I don't know he could moved needle.

>> We talked about the trump endorsement and I know in a governor's race, but Karen Taylor-robson said something interesting and basically said that this is the quote, I will continue to say that I don't believe the election was fair.

She didn't say how and didn't go further, and what's that about?

>> We saw this on fox news and what's interesting.

We saw the original headline, election results were inaccurate and then unfair and I think there's two schools of thought and probably the main one is that she doesn't believe that the election was rigged and she's never gone that far and never as far as Kari lake and you have to pacify the very large group of voters in the republican primary elect electorate and not fair because of media coverage or big tech or because of et cetera, et cetera.

>> Mark Zuckerburg funds and everything else.

Look at the polling of republicans where majority say the results were unfair and these are the people who come out and vote in the primary.

>> By saying it's unfair and not going any further, is that enough for the farthest wing of the right wing or too much for those who are saying we thought better of you?

>> I still believe Kari lake topped out with the number she's get, 38% or whatever that is, and that leaves Karen and Matt salmon fighting out the rest of it.

She's trying to dip into the folks that find Kari unacceptable and she doesn't want to go down that panel.

path.

>> If you believe in the wing of the party that the election was won and turn lost, you won't go to Kari lake or Matt salmon and so, you know, there's a path.

>> They might be disappointed but won't change, more than likely.

>> It leaves a path for her to sort of take a different route.

>> Sure, and two schools of thought and the other has some republicans I've heard from that are that much more contingent who don't like the election rigging talk or disappointed pandering to that crowd and if that to you as a republican voter, where will you go?

>> You mentioned the January 6th hearings, and is that impacting any local races here?

>> We're waiting to find out whether Andy Biggs, why he asked for a pardon?

Everybody has made up his or her minds.

They've decided this is interesting, there are little things bubbling up and waiting for the smoking gun to the extent there is one and a lot of fun stuff and you had to use the word fun, but newsy stuff that has come out and I don't see this changing mines at all.

>> Were you surprised David S Swiekert changed his mind?

>> Not someone knowns a Maga candidate and part of me wonders this is over and trump, who has taken criticism for endorsing candidates who are losing doesn't want to do that and someone will win, so may as well get behind him now.

>> I think I've seen some reporting that trump is interested in the percentage of his endorsements who go onto win and endorse the obvious winners.

>> The fact is that all of the dirt, if you want to call about him having to pay fines, it just hasn't stuck.

>> A four-attorney general, as that a surprise?

>> We knew there were people he wouldn't endorse and he might go with the Peter Thiel-backed candidate with masters and hammond has come out and wrapped his lips, you will, around the presidential derierr and nothing that the former president likes more.

>> And he's been the most vigorous Volk of the, you advocate.

>> This could really be a game-changer.

You have a six-way race and I don't know if they know who most candidates are and early voting starts in a couple of weeks and that could definitely influence it.

>> You could watch it on Arizona horizon.

It's a spirited debate.

>> The importance of this particular race, if trump wants to, and the Secretary of State's race, if trump wants to run in 2024, you know, the AG's office and Secretary of State's office play an important role in the defending election challenges and that sort of thing, the mechanics of the ultimate result.

>> A good point.

Jonathan, we have a gun safety agreement on capitol hill in the senate and Kyrsten Sinema in the forefrontsforeforefront.

>> She was one of the two republicans who hammered out this compromise and now it's one into a few roadblocks she was sort of one of the leaders of that effort and that's very much in keeping with her sort of approach to politics.

And you know, she's very much believing in incremental change that is enacted by bipartisan majoritieson if it goess even if it goes so far.

>> You need 60 votes in the senate, which means ten republicans have to be on board and OK, we can do this.

The hardest heart and Jonathan suggested this, has to do with questions of, you know, the red flag laws what does it include and cover?

The NRA and the allies have said, oh, my God, somebody will call up anonymously and gee, Ted, you know, we think injury dangerous and take Ted's guns.

>> The boyfriend loophole is something that Kyrsten Sinema is interested in and non-spouses of stalking and she's totally against that and marching and shouting hard on that one.

>> That's a major issue that I think gun control advocates and domestic violence opponents have focused in on for a long time and the red flag laws in general, think -- I'm follow sure, those might be two differents and the red flag laws seems like a much bigger sticking point falling apart.

>> Are we really?

>> Republican concerns over whether this is going to be misused and people will unfairly lose their second amendment rights and John Cornan walking out and breathing down his neck over this.

>> The big breaks governor Ducey over his push for red flag laws which went absolutely nowhere.

>> For three straight years.

>> Yeah.

And you know, we saw the right wing of the party up in arms over that.

>> Howie, let's say this falls apart and all of this work she's done goes klablewie, does this change her stance on the filibuster?

>> No.

She's looking at the reality, that the next senate could be 52-48, let's shareable.

say republican.

You need that 60 vote majority.

>> We have to stop it right there and welcome to the show.

>> I'm glad to say you don't hate people here.

Not.

[ Laughter ] >> No, it's not over yet.

I'm Ted Simons and thank you for joining us and you have a great weekend.

Up later in the hour on Arizona PBS, break it down, how race impacts entrepreneurship.