>> Ted: Coming up in the next hour on Arizona PBS, on "Arizona Horizon," it's the journalist's roundtable of the decision by the U.S. Supreme Court to overturn Roe v. Wade that's next on "Arizona Horizon" " Good evening and welcome to "Arizona Horizon."

I'm Ted Simons.

It's time for the journalist's roundtable and we have plenty to discuss.

We're joined by Jeremy Duda and Laurie and we'll start with you, Roe v. Wade overturned and what does this mean for Arizona?

>> That's what everybody has been trying to figure out?

>> We have a law that was enacted before we became a state that banned abortion except in emergency cases of life of the woman and actually sent anyone who provided an abortion or helped to provide an abortion, a mandatory two to five-year prison sentence.

The question is, is that in place?

In 1973, when Roe v. Wade was passed, the court of appeals put an injunction, I believe, on that law, which some people say has never been lifted.

Meanwhile, you have the legislature this year that passed a bill banning abortion after 15 weeks including in cases of rape or incest and that takes effect at the end of 90 days after the legislature adjourns, if they ever do and we're thinking fall.

Which law at that point takes precedence?

There are those saying the original ban remains and other says -- the attorney general says he doesn't know.

As of right now, I don't think there are any abortions done in Arizona.

>> Ted: I want to get to that in a second here, but it sounds as governor Ducey, the ban that he signed, that supercedes the ban on all abortions and not everyone agrees with that, do they?

>> It's up in the air and so many different opinions and that's been governor Ducey's position that will be the law of the land and will not go into effect until the end of the legislation.

Theoretically, in the meantime, there was an injunction, the case out of Pima county and some thought from the center for Arizona policy, the injunction applies to the Pima county attorney's office from enforcing it and others aren't sure if it's the other state and others are operating out of a an abundance of caution.

You have the Maricopa county's office in the phoenix area who doesn't seem sure.

If someone sends us the case, to determine if it's progress prosecuted and so many different moving parts here and unlikely we'll see a case referred anywhere because no one is providing abortions right now.

>> Meanwhile, the senate republicans put out this bizarre announcement, announcing the old ban, the total ban would remain in effect after the 15-week ban goes into effect.

They sort of announced it, but it's not their call to make.

Ultimately, this will get into the courts and bottom line that nobody knows what the law is in Arizona right now.

>> The attorney general's office plans to draft a legal analysis and we'll see what that does and Maricopa county attorney wants more guidance on which law do I enforce.

>> One thing to point out about the 15-week ban, an explicit provision that does not repeal the old pre-Roe ban and 13 dash whatever says not interpreting to rescinding that.

>> Ted: Why does the governor say it does?

>> Maybe he says it's a political calculous and you look at that and the legislative intent was clear, they want the 15-week ban be as ban as long as Roe was there and emphasized they were doing that and I'm guessing they didn't expect that to be enforced in the absence of Roe v. Wade.

>> It's clear this is headed to court sooner rather than later didn't it would be decided by the Arizona Supreme Court.

It won wouldn't surprise me they would take it into their own happeneds to sayhands that abortion is illegal in Arizona and if you're a rape victim, tough luck and I could see them doing that quickly.

>> Ted: I was going to ask, could they come back and could a special session be called once everyone is cooled down and hosed off?

>> I would have a hard time seeing that in the regular session.

Remember, you know, the start of early voting is five weeks away and these people have campaigns and they want to get out on the campaign trail and itching to get out.

>> This is the holy grail to make it clear that Roe v. Wade is no more and in Arizona, it's not the law and I could see them doing it and you're probably right, and I could see that.

>> Not a lot of motivation because they won.

Maybe there's an injunction and maybe there isn't and if there is, it will get lifted, because it was put in place because of Roe v. Wade.

>> Ted: We'll get to the humanitarian aspect, but before we do, the political ramifications of all of this.

We have a primary, a November general coming up and this is huge.

>> Well, I think you have to believe this helps Katie Hobbs, the presumptive democratic nominee, that suburban women that are pro-choice, this may sway them.

I'm not sure that it helps much in the legislature because the Arizona democratic party didn't even field enough candidates to take control of the legislature and so yes, it could make a difference there and in two years for the presidential, the person who appoints Supreme Court justices.

This year I continue to believe while abortion is an issue which people are passionate, every week, they fill up their gas tank and go to the grocery store and that's uppermost in people's minds.

>> Ted: The question would be, as far as Democrats and liberals coalescing or a celebratory moment to say republicans say, see this is what happens when we get power?

>> In terms of that, as far as the electoral, what the Democrats are hoping for, this drives folks who will stay home and they don't like what they're seeing from the Democrats.

A lot of democrats dissipaterred dis-spirited and will they get them to come to the polls and vote for Democrats on the ballot?

The swing voterrers, a lot of people who got Joe Biden and Markelmark Kelly elected, she'll they'll be voting largely against Democrats.

>> Ted: The political angles and be back to the roundtables in a minute but for more on today's decision and ruling by the U.S. Supreme Court, on a more humanitarian and individual basis, we welcome Dr. Swap from the college of health solutions and doctor, good to have you and today's decision, the context of healthcare.

>> Absolutely.

This is an important decision, not just as you all are discussing from the legal perspective and the political perspective, but really from the human perspective and what it means for the healthcare system, right?

So healthcare providers right now scrambling as the state of Arizona trying to figure out what the law is and healthcare providers trying to figure it out and what is legal and not legal for them to do and not really placing them in a really good situation at the moment.

What we know is leading healthcare organizations and the American medical organization, most of the medical colleges have come out, actually, against this ruling.

What we also know is that providers in neighboring states like, for instance in California and other states more pro-choice in the United States, those clinics are packed.

We know there are clinics that have 300, 400-person wait lists.

Depending on what happens and we'll know in the next couple of weeks that is the law that is enforced, in Arizona, it doesn't mean providers know exactly what to do and a freezing fear factor and healthcare clinics that provide this service, but also, what happens in the states that actually will continue to provide these services?

Are they going to take on just sort of the volume of cases that might be coming their way?

>> So women who want abortions in Arizona, once we get going on this and we know it will happen here in Arizona and likely in some neighboring states, what do they do and where do they go?

>> As they think about the legal and political aspects, the real question is, how is this impacting women and how is this impacting families?

What we know is women of means, women that have resources, while this is might be incredibly inconvenient, usually if you have resources and means, you can go to a different state didn't receive those services.

So if you're in Arizona, we have a state next door called California where you can receive those services.

What we also know if you do not have means and you do not have resources, and so we're talking about low income for women and talking about rural women and we're talking about women of color who this will disproportionately impact and taking time off work, finding childcare, this is a real challenge and this might not be an option.

This is not an option and who does this impact?

Those exact groups.

Low income women, rural women, women of color, where this challenge, the removal of the right will receive the services they need.

>> Ted: I would imagine we'll see an increased focus -- but certainly more attention phon foster care systems.

If you've got a lower income woman who is pregnant and would otherwise have an abortion and not have an abortion and that child comes to term, you have two low income folks that need to be taken care of and are people ready for that kind of social service impact?

>> Governors and conservatives celebrating this ruling and almost immediately in many cases.

What we haven't seen is a lot of information from the exact same policy makers talking about increase in social safety net programs and the foster care system and post natal care and maternal care and all services that are needed in order to not just have safe births and healthy children and to have children that are able to meet basic need, we haven't gotten a lot of information from those folks.

If we're caring about children and babies, that kind of ideology should expand once they're born and we haven't seen that, including our own.

As we know, Roe v. Wade was decided in 1973 and I, myself, was born after 1973 and I'm part of a generation that's never lived in the United States without this as a right, abortion as a right.

My students are of a different generation, usually millennial and never lived as abortion as a right.

I have a daughter that's a teenager, never lived in the United States with this as a right.

This is really a stunning kind of moment for women in the United States, but once again, what we know is women of means will be less impacted than those always consistently impacted by women, low income women and women of color and don't see safety net support to be able to take care of any unwanted pregnancies that are sure to happen.

>> Ted: Last question and we thank you for your time.

These abortion pills, how do they play into this Downtown Downtown dynamic?

>> The medication abortions or pharmaceutical abortions actually today account for more than half of all abortions in the United States.

It's an overwhelmingly safe way of abortion and increaseing axing that abortion may help.

The F.D.A.

approved this up to ten weeks of pregnancy and, you know, in other states and in other parts of the country using telemedicine and mail to increase access to this type of abortion has become more common and it's something I know at the federal level, they're taking a greater look at in Arizona and we have made it illegal to receive this type of medication by mail.

This is something to take a look at and certainly an option to increase options for women.

But we have a pretty big roadblock in Arizona, especially for receiving those pills by mail.

Again, what we know, not just from a pre-growpre-Roe era, but when women don't have access to safe abortion, it doesn't mean the number of abortions are reduced but the number of safe abortions are reduced.

What we'll see tragedically is a number of women without means, self-managing abortion and receiving less than safe abortions and probably just a rise in things like maternal mortality rates, et cetera.

>> Ted: Good to see you and thank you.

On a programming note, break it down will have more on the human impact of today's Supreme Court decision and that's later in the hour.

And then at the top of the hour, full coverage from PBS news hour at 6:00 right here on Arizona PBS.

Back to the journalist's round dozenroundtable, a busy week and this is the main story, but Laurie, we had the speaker of the Arizona house, making international headlines with his testimony at the January 6th January 6th investigation.

Talk to us about this and the impact that rusty Bowers made.

>> I think he made a huge impact.

The things he said should not have been a big surprise to anyone in Arizona.

He's talked publically about the pressure he faced before from frumptrump and Giuliani and the whole conspiracy crew and interesting to see national legislature just how taken people were with his testimony.

That he clearly came across to the nation as a man of courage and conviction and conscience.

He was believable.

He was not at all buying into any political aspect.

He was simply there to talk about what he did.

And I have heard people say it was possibly the best testimony they've ever heard before a congressional committee.

Pretty high praise.

>> Ted: He was emotional at time, too, Jeremy.

>> He teared up at types and times and violating the oath he took to the office and faith of constitution and the constitution is inspired and not willing to do that.

And, you know, he seemed disturbed by this and affected him very emotionally, it looked like.

Especially it laid bare how shameless, really, these efforts were.

The first time he talked with trump and Giuliani, a hundred thousand illegal immigrants voted and dead people and do you have evidence?

Sure, and it never came because these things never happened and at one point, they were trying to talk him into this legislative hearing that he refused the sanction.

And do you have evidence and he testified that Giuliani, we have a lot of theories but we don't have evidence, which means they're all made up, really.

And so this was a really full core press to really try to take serious action.

>> Ted: Someone by the name of Biggs tried to get rusty bowers tried to get something to do something.

>> On the morning of January 6th, 2021, as Congress was getting ready to take up the issue to certify these votes, Congressman Biggs made a call to Russpy Bowers to support decertifying the election and for the umteenth time, he said no.

>> Ted: Didn't Donald >> Ted: And Donald Trump Septembers outsentout an election saying it was rigged and Bowers saying no, it didn't happen.

>> I had a conversation with trump and saying no, that didn't happen and speaker Bowers saying he knew the election was rigged and I won and obviously, Bowers did not say that.

And because of the enthusiasm and the voters I drew about, that he actually won and he knew something was wrong because he got more votes.

A, he did not get more votes than President Trump and B, that's overwhelmingly a republican district and did not occur that rusty Bowers would lose.

None of the things President Trump was talking about.

Did get a confirmation from speak Bowers he did say telling President Trump he did di a drive a lot of turn-out and told in, he told me he would lose.

>> Ted: Almost child-like, though.

And you have bowers saying I'm getting the push from the president and Giuliani and an old friend pushing me this way and people doing all of this kind of stuff.

Obviously, it was emotional.

After the testimony, he would still vote for Donald Trump?

>> Yeah, a lot of people have taken that as, well, he can't be a man of conviction if he feels that way.

But I can see he is.

He's a staunched rock-ribbed republican conservative.

He would weigh, I think -- you have Donald Trump with all of his warts versus a democratic liberal agenda which he believes is wrong for America.

Yes, I can see him saying that and does not seem in consist tens toaudiencein connant tome.

Wendy Rogers -- maybe it's not that different, I don't know.

[ Laughter ] >> Ted: I thought of it together and people are saying by bowers showing true courage and statesmanship.

>> You have to consider the presidency is a lot more than governor Ducey can go and we've seen that today with the Roe v. Wade being overturned.

I would see he would want a republican president to protect the 6-3 to protect it.

It doesn't seem unusual.

>> Ted: I think people were more curious.

>> Oh, no.

Read my Emails.

>> Ted: That's true.

Kelly ward had comments including -- I mean, she referred to rusty bowers as tris bowels.

>> She's embracing her inner third grader and deciding to go there, which is shock for the head of a republican party.

If you follow republican party or democratic party politics, you know the party exists to get republicans be elected.

Usually, often, I would say almost always, republican leaders in the party stay out of primary elections and they don't bag on their own people.

In this case, she's calling him names and called him a loser and September outsent out a meme calling him a troll and endorsed his competition.

That will be a tough race and one of the election deniers and one of the people who signed the 29 republicans who signed onto the resolution and Kelly ward is now fully in the bag for him.

>> Ted: The reaction from TJ Shote hell bent on destroying the G.O.P.

Who is charmed by a G.O.P chair calling a speaker of the house, a republican, rusty bowels?

>> The people who got her elected chair and the people from the faction of the party.

Ward is doing something that we've never seen a state party chair from either party do which is actively and regularly take sides in these contested primaries.

I can only think of one time in the 14 years at the state capitol I've seen a party chair with a single race.

But she does it constantly and weighing in on Twitter against this republican is a rhino and vote for this one.

We saw two of the candidates for governor, you know and stay away from a recent debate.

It was a Q & A session because no one would show up except Kari lake because everyone felt ward was in the bag for her.

>> She sent out a tweet this week that was critical of Karen Taylor robson in the governor's race.

If robson were to pull it off and win, Kelly ward's job is to get her elected and now she's on the record as basically implying robson is this liberal that goes to Democrats.

>> As a reporter this week, she and her husband were subpoenaed in relation to the election stuff.

They were too of the 11 fake elect who claimed to be the official electors for trump.

>> Ted: We had Congressman Biggs a pardon.

>> One wonders what you need to pardon for if you say that you didn't do anything wrong.

It came out this week from one of the White House, I think, an aid to mark meadows, chief of staff, he was one of six or more who requested a pardon.

>> Ted: Before we go and it's so busy, this would have been the lead story, a budget apparently worked out and bipartisan reared its head.

>> The magical unicorn and you've never seen it until this year, that the republicans have a one-vote majority in each chamber and some republicans did not want go along with this and a couple others spent too much and then too little and now the republicans will have to reach out to the Democrats.

We hear this every few years and the Democrats ask for more and that didn't happen.

You have 18 hours or more of votes and negotiations and committee hearings and finally, late at night, they reach a deal with Democrats and lots of money for K-12 education and lots of republicans fell off.

One quick note, one republican who voted was joking how much more it costs the state to get the republicans to get them on board.

>> The far right republicans fiscal hawking the place refused a lower number, 15 point something billion dollars and they had to go shopping in the Democrat store and, well, good for public school children and good more affordable housing and a number of things.

And also good for those who think that we need to convince the border and something in there for everybody to like and something for everybody.

>> The transportation project.

>> Ted: This is how you get things done.

>> And credit to them.

>> Ted: And credit to you for being with us and good show tonight.

That is it for now.

I'm Ted Simons and thank you for joining us and you have a great weekend.