REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM THE >>LORENE: HELLO, I AM LORENE MILLS AND WELCOME TO REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

I AM SO PLEASED THAT OUR GUEST TODAY IS ESTEEMED AUTHOR, JOYCE CAROL OATES, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>>JOYCE: THANK YOU FOR INVITING ME.

>>LORENE: YOU ARE EPIC.

YOU KNOW, YOU ARE ONE OF MY FAVORITE WRITERS, I HAVE TRIED TO READ EVERYTHING YOU WRITE.

YOU PUBLISHED YOUR FIRST BOOK IN 1963 AND SINCE THEN, IS IT 58 NOVELS?

>>JOYCE: I THINK SO, I DON'T ACTUALLY KEEP TRACK.

>>LORENE: I KNOW, IT'S LIKE NOTCHES ON THE GUN - PLAYS, NOVELLAS, SHORT STORIES, POETRY, NON-FICTION.

WHAT I LOVE ABOUT YOUR WRITING IS THAT YOU DO GENRE BENDING, PEOPLE TALK ABOUT GENDER BENDING, BUT YOU LIKE TO EXPERIMENT AND SO THERE ARE SO MANY DIFFERENT GENRES - REALISM, HORROR, GOTHIC, ROMANCE, HISTORY, NON-FICTION - THERE ARE ALL THESE THINGS AND YOU TINKER WITH THEM IN A WAY THAT THEY BECOME BRAND NEW.

THERE IS NOTHING PREDICTABLE ABOUT IT, SO I AM JUST REALLY PLEASED TO HAVE YOU HERE.

I AM NOT THE ONLY ONE WHO FEELS THIS WAY.

YOU HAVE BEEN A PULITZER PRIZE FINALIST MANY TIMES, YOU HAVE GOTTEN THE NATIONAL BOOK AWARD, TWO O'HENRY AWARDS BECAUSE YOUR SHORT STORIES ARE EXQUISITE.

THE NATIONAL HUMANITIES MEDAL, THE JERUSALEM PRIZE, WHICH IS ABOUT THE FREEDOM OF THE INDIVIDUAL IN SOCIETY AND YOU HAVE BEEN TEACHING AT PRINCETON FROM 1978 TO 2014, YOU ARE STILL EMERITUS THERE THOUGH, AREN'T YOU?

>>JOYCE: YES, I ACTUALLY TEACH ONE COURSE AT PRINCETON.

>>LORENE: GOOD, CREATIVE WRITING?

>>JOYCE: YES, I AM NOT A FULL-TIME FACULTY MEMBER, BUT I TEACH ONE COURSE, WRITING.

>>LORENE: WELL, THEY ARE LUCKY, THEY ARE LUCKY TO HAVE YOU.

AND YOUR FRIEND, JOHN UPDIKE, SAID, I LOVE THIS QUOTE, "THAT IF WE HAD A TITLE FOR A WOMAN OF LETTERS, YOU MORE THAN ANYONE WOULD BE ENTITLED TO IT."

>>JOYCE: YES, IT WAS VERY NICE OF JOHN.

>>LORENE: WELL I THINK IT'S TRUE, TOO.

SO WELCOME AND YOU ARE IN SANTA FE AND YOU HAVE DONE A LAUNCH OF THIS NEW BOOK.

WE ARE HERE TO CELEBRATE THIS BRAND-NEW BOOK, IT IS CALLED, BREATHE AND TELL US A LITTLE ABOUT IT.

>>JOYCE: WELL BREATHE IS BASICALLY A NOVEL ABOUT GRIEF AND LOSS AND COMING TO GRIPS WITH THESE MONUMENTAL EXPERIENCES IN OUR LIVES.

I WANTED TO REALLY FOCUS ON THE EXISTENTIAL AND VISCERAL SENSATION OF BEING GRIEVING AND DEALING WITH IT IN A VERY CANDID WAY AND AT SOME LENGTH.

IT IS ALMOST LIKE DESCENDING INTO THE UNDERWORLD.

>>LORENE: IT IS.

>>JOYCE: AND DEALING WITH WHAT'S THERE, BUT ALSO COMING BACK.

I THOUGHT OF THE NOVEL AS A BALANCE BETWEEN THE GRIEVINGNESS AND THEN TAKING THE CARE AND LOVE THAT WE WOULD DEVOTE TO THE LOST PERSON, TAKING THE CARE AND FINDING SOMEONE ELSE OR SOMETHING ELSE TO FOCUS ON.

>>LORENE: THAT'S SO BEAUTIFULLY PUT BECAUSE YOU DO, THAT'S ONE OF THE THREADS THAT THE HEROINE, THE PROTAGONIST, GRIEVES THE LOSS OF HER HUSBAND, SHE ALSO GRIEVES GIVING HIM THE LOVE AND TAKING CARE OF HIM.

>>JOYCE: YES.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

>>JOYCE: YES, THAT IS SUCH A LOSS.

>>LORENE: AND THIS IS IN EFFECT, YOU LOST YOUR SECOND HUSBAND, CHARLIE GROSS, AND THIS IS AN EXAMINATION OF THOSE COURAGEOUS SENTIMENTS AND PAINFUL DANCE WITH GRIEF.

>>JOYCE: WELL PEOPLE WHO ARE WIDOWS SHARE A CERTAIN KIND OF DARK SISTERHOOD AND I THINK IT IS SOMETHING THAT REALLY ALL EXPERIENCE.

SO, I WANTED TO EXPLORE THE UNIVERSALITY BUT IN TERMS OF SOMETHING VERY SPECIFIC.

AND AS YOU SAID, YOU KNOW, IT IS FOCUSING ON ONE PERSON BUT EXTRACTING FROM THAT A KIND OF UNIVERSAL SENSE OF LOSS AND HOW WE DEAL WITH IT.

I FIND THAT IT IS VERY FRUITFUL TO REALLY CONTEMPLATE, TO MEDITATE RATHER THAN SAY, "WELL, I AM NOT GOING TO THINK ABOUT IT," BUT TO REALLY IMMERSE ONESELF IN THE LOSS AND THINK AT LENGTH ABOUT IT AND DEAL WITH IT.

IT HAS BEEN QUITE AN EXPERIENCE.

>>LORENE: CHURCHILL HAD ALWAYS SAID, "THE ONLY WAY AROUND IS THROUGH."

>>JOYCE: OH, THAT'S SO WELL PUT.

>>LORENE: AND FOR, I TOO HAVE HAD LOSS AND GRIEVED, I TOO, AM A WIDOW.

THIS GAVE ME PERMISSION TO REALLY REEXPERIENCE ALL OF THAT AND INSTEAD OF PUTTING IT OFF FOR LATER, YOU KNOW, THIS WAS A REAL EXPERIENCE FOR ME, THANK YOU.

>>JOYCE: WELL, I AM SURE, OKAY.

>>LORENE: AND THIS WIDOW'S STORY , THEY ARE VERY DIFFERENT, BUT YOU OFFER THE SAME VEHICLE FOR OTHER PEOPLE TO TAKE THIS VOYAGE WITH YOU, THIS ODYSSEY.

>>JOYCE: YES.

GRIEF IS VERY MUCH ALMOST AN EXISTENTIAL EXAMINATION OF THE PROCESSES OF GRIEF.

A WIDOW'S STORY IS MORE SET IN A SOCIAL MILIEU AND FRIENDS ARE VERY IMPORTANT FOR WIDOWS.

I MEAN A WIDOW NEEDS HER FRIENDS AND RELATIVES LET'S SAY, WE HAVE A KIND OF EMOTIONAL SUPPORT GROUP.

SO, A WIDOW'S STORY PUTS A LOT OF EMPHASIS ON FRIENDS, WHEREAS BREATHE IS THIS EXISTENTIAL VERY, VERY INTENSE RELATIONSHIP BASICALLY WITH THE HUSBAND AND THEN HE DIES AND THEN THE WIFE IS LEFT BEHIND AND AFTER THAT SHE HAS TO DEAL WITH BEING ALONE.

SHE DOESN'T HAVE ANY FRIENDS AROUND AND AS YOU SAID, IT IS A VERY DIFFERENT KIND OF NARRATIVE AND THE TONE OF IT IS VERY STARK, INTENSE LIKE A NIGHTMARE.

>>LORENE: AND THE FACT THAT IT IS SET IN A PLACE SIMILAR, A NEW MEXICO LOCALE, THAT MIGHT BE SORT OF A LITTLE BIT LIKE SANTA FE, MAYBE, BUT SANTA TIERRA.

>>JOYCE: YES.

>>LORENE: AND THE FACT THAT THEY WERE THERE, THEY DIDN'T HAVE THEIR SUPPORT SYSTEM.

THIS EVENT HAPPENED WHEN THEY WERE AWAY FROM HOME, AWAY FROM THEIR FRIENDS AND THAT'S WHY IT IS SO PARTICULARLY STARK.

>>JOYCE: YES AND THEN SHE DOESN'T WANT TO LEAVE, SHE DOESN'T WANT TO LEAVE SO SOON, SHE CAN'T JUST LEAVE.

AND THE COVER THERE IS BRYCE CANYON.

>>LORENE: OH, IT'S BEAUTIFUL.

>>JOYCE: AND AGAIN THE STARKNESS AND THE OTHER WORLDLINESS.

IT IS VERY DIFFERENT FROM LIFE BACK EAST WHERE YOU HAVE A DIFFERENT SET OF LANDSCAPE.

THAT FRONT LANDSCAPE, IT IS MORE LIKELY LIKE THE MOON OR MARS, IT IS NOT HUMAN.

IT IS VERY BEAUTIFUL, BUT ALSO FOR PEOPLE FROM THE EAST IT IS HARD TO BREATHE, WE CAN'T CATCH OUR BREATH.

>>LORENE: YES.

>>JOYCE: IN WHAT, IS IT 7,000 FEET HERE?

>>LORENE: YES.

>>JOYCE: BUT I COME FROM, YOU KNOW, SEA LEVEL LIKE IT IS ONE FOOT AND SO COMING HERE IT IS LIKE APPROACHING AN EXISTENTIAL ABYSS OF THE COSMOS, LIKE IT IS ALMOST LIKE GOING OUT INTO SPACE.

>>LORENE: ALSO, YOU DID A WHOLE COLLECTION OF SHORT STORIES ABOUT HUSBANDS, SO YOU REALLY ARE A MASTER OF SHORT STORIES.

I DO WANT TO SHOW YOUR LATEST SHORT STORY BOOK.

OH MY GOSH, THIS IS CALLED THE OTHER YOU AND IN THIS YOU DANCE WITH ALTERNATIVE REALITIES OF OUR INDIVIDUAL LIVES, IT WAS REALLY PROVOCATIVE FOR ME.

>>JOYCE: WELL THANK YOU.

I PARTICULARLY LIKE THE WOMEN FRIENDS, THE TWO WOMEN WHO HAVE BEEN FRIENDS SINCE GRADE SCHOOL AND HOW CLOSELY CONNECTED WOMEN CAN BE.

BOTH THE WOMEN HAVE FAMILIES, BUT THEY FEEL MUCH CLOSER TO EACH OTHER.

AND THE FAMILIES, THEY FEEL THAT THEY HAVE TO KEEP THINGS AWAY FROM THEIR HUSBANDS, SECRETS, AND THEY NEVER TELL THEIR CHILDREN TOO MUCH.

BUT WITH YOUR SISTER FRIEND, YOU CAN TELL WHAT'S IN YOUR HEART.

>>LORENE: YES.

THERE ARE SOME CHARMING THINGS ABOUT YOUR BACKGROUND.

I LOVE THE FACT THAT YOU WENT TO A ONE-ROOM SCHOOLHOUSE, AND IT WAS THE SAME ONE YOUR MOM HAD GONE TO.

AND THE PERSON I AM DRAWN TO IN YOUR BACKGROUND IS YOUR GRANDMOTHER.

TO THINK THAT SHE GAVE YOU YOUR FIRST LIBRARY CARD, IT WAS LIKE A TICKET OUT.

>>JOYCE: SHE WAS WONDERFUL.

>>LORENE: THE TYPEWRITER AND ALICE IN WONDERLAND .

>>JOYCE: AND ALL THESE BOOKS, YEAH.

A WHOLE SUCCESSION OF BOOKS.

SHE WAS MY JEWISH GRANDMOTHER AS IT TURNED OUT.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

YOU DIDN'T KNOW THAT OF COURSE WHEN YOU WERE GROWING UP.

>>JOYCE: NO, NO, NO, I HAVE MET PEOPLE WHO HAD THAT EXPERIENCE WHERE THEY LEARNED THAT SOMEONE IN THE FAMILY HAD BEEN JEWISH, MY PARENTS AND THEY DIDN'T KNOW.

>>LORENE: EVEN MADELEINE ALBRIGHT.

>>JOYCE: THAT WAS A GOOD EXAMPLE.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

>>JOYCE: WHAT A SHOCK, IT'S SUCH A SURPRISE.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

>>JOYCE: IT REORGANIZES THE PAST IN A WAY THAT YOU CAN JUST HARDLY COMPREHEND.

>>LORENE: YES, YOU WOULD HAVE TO TAKE SOME TIME ADJUSTING AND THEN EDUCATING YOURSELF.

>>JOYCE: AND OF COURSE MY GRANDMOTHER WAS DECEASED WHEN I FOUND OUT, IT WAS ALL OVER.

>>LORENE: YOU COULDN'T ASK.

>>JOYCE: NO, AND I THOUGHT THAT SO MUCH THAT WAS IN HER PAST WAS LOST.

SHE DIDN'T TELL A SOUL ABOUT HERSELF.

>>LORENE: BUT LOOK WHAT SHE GAVE TO YOU.

I MEAN SHE KNEW, SHE NOURISHED YOU, SHE HELPED YOU.

>>JOYCE: SHE WAS SO WONDERFUL, I REALLY... THAT'S ONE OF THE WONDERS OF MY LIFE, HOW MYSTERIOUS MY GRANDMOTHER WAS.

WHEN MOST GRANDMOTHERS ARE LOVING AND VERY NICE.

>>LORENE: YES.

>>JOYCE: BUT MINE WAS SUCH A SECRETIVE PERSON, SHE DIDN'T HAVE ANY PERSONAL LIFE, IT WAS SO STRANGE.

>>LORENE: WELL I AM SURE SHE IS NOT ASTONISHED, BUT REALLY PROUD OF HOW BENDING THE TWIG IN A LITERARY WAY HOW YOU'VE DONE.

I WANT JUST TO MENTION A COUPLE OF YOUR CLASSIC BOOKS.

THIS WAS THE ONE THAT REALLY GOT THE BALL ROLLING, WE WERE THE MULVANEYS .

>>JOYCE: YES.

>>LORENE: OPRAH MADE THIS ONE OF HER CHOICES AND IT JUST TOOK THE COUNTRY BY STORM.

AND THIS IS THE GENRE OF REALISM.

>>JOYCE: YES, IT IS.

>>LORENE: AND IT IS A FAMILY TRAGEDY.

>>JOYCE: YES, IT DOES HAVE SOME UPLIFTING PARTS TO IT.

AND THE CAT IN THE NOVEL, MUFFIN, IS A REAL CAT.

>>LORENE: OH, GOOD.

>>JOYCE: AND HE WAS MY CAT.

>>LORENE: AH.

>>JOYCE: AND I THINK PART OF THE REASON FOR WRITING THE NOVEL WAS KIND OF PRESERVING THIS WONDERFUL, SPECIAL CAT, A LITTLE MORE LIKE A DOG, YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES YOU HAVE A CAT THAT BEHAVES LIKE A DOG.

>>LORENE: YES.

>>JOYCE: BUT DOESN'T HAVE ANY BAD DOGGY ELEMENTS, HE IS JUST A NICE CAT.

>>LORENE: YEAH, I KNOW YOU ARE A GREAT CAT AFICIONADO.

>>JOYCE: I AM AFRAID I AM A CAT PERSON.

>>LORENE: YES.

>>JOYCE: BUT I LIKE DOGS, TOO.

>>LORENE: THIS ONE THE FALLS ANOTHER JUST COMPELLING READ.

IT IS JUST ONE, WHEN PEOPLE ASK WHERE TO START THESE ARE KIND OF CLASSIC OATES AND THIS ONE, HOW I ADORE THIS ONE, BLONDE , THIS IS ABOUT MARILYN MONROE.

>>JOYCE: THIS WAS MY MOST CHALLENGING NOVEL.

>>LORENE: YES.

>>JOYCE: IT WAS DIFFICULT TO WRITE.

>>LORENE: YES.

WELL, IT IS A VERY SUCCESSFUL NOVEL, SO I THANK YOU.

TELL ME A LITTLE ABOUT YOUR PROCESS, WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I WOULD LIKE TO MENTION WE ARE SPEAKING TODAY WITH JOYCE CAROL OATES WHO IS A PROLIFIC WRITER, NOVELIST, GENRE BENDING WRITER.

YOU HAVE A PARTICULAR RITUAL THAT YOU FOLLOW WITH YOUR WRITING, YOU ARE VERY WELL DISCIPLINED, YOU START IN THE MORNING.

TALK TO ME A LITTLE ABOUT YOUR WRITING DAY.

>>JOYCE: WELL, EVERY PROJECT IS A LITTLE DIFFERENT.

HERE IN SANTA FE, I AM DOING REVISIONS ON A NOVEL THAT WILL PROBABLY COME OUT IN 2022.

SO, THE NOVEL IS ALL FINISHED AND MY EDITOR HAS READ IT AND I AM REVISING IT.

THERE IS SOMETHING ABOUT BEING IN SANTA FE, WAKING UP VERY EARLY, I GET UP AROUND SIX AND I MOVE OUT TO A PLACE IN THIS RENTED HOUSE AND I CAN LOOK OUT THE WINDOW AND THE SKY IS STARTING TO GET LIGHT, AND I JUST SIT UTTERLY WRAPPED ENRAPTURED GOING THROUGH EVERY LINE, I AM DOING LINE EDITING.

I AM DOING EVERY SINGLE LINE, I AM REWRITING, I AM CHANGING, I AM ADDING THINGS AND SO THAT IS VERY PLEASURABLE, I CAN DO THAT FOREVER.

I WOULD DESCRIBE THAT AS LIKE BICYCLING ALONG A PLATEAU IN VERY NICE COUNTRYSIDE.

BUT WHAT IS DIFFICULT FOR ME IS THE FIRST DRAFT.

THIS FIRST DRAFT I DID DURING THE PANDEMIC, IT IS ALL OVER.

I CALL THIS NOVEL MY PANDEMIC NOVEL BECAUSE I WROTE IT IN LOCK-DOWN AND WHEN I FIRST STARTED IT, IT WAS VERY DIFFICULT.

SO, THE FIRST SIX WEEKS I THOUGHT I DON'T KNOW WHAT I AM GOING TO DO, I FELT REALLY MISERABLE BECAUSE, YOU NEED TO WORK.

SO, IF THERE ARE ANY WRITERS LISTENING, WE ALWAYS REMEMBER THAT IT TAKES A WHILE TO GET INTO THE NOVEL, YOU CAN'T GET IN IMMEDIATELY, YOU CAN'T START IMMEDIATELY.

YOU CAN'T JUST SIT DOWN AND SAY, "WELL I AM GOING TO WRITE THE FIRST CHAPTER," YOU REALLY CAN'T DO THAT, BUT EVERYBODY TRIES TO DO THAT.

SO, YOU KEEP TRYING TO DO THE FIRST CHAPTER AND THEN IT DOESN'T WORK.

AND I ALTERNATE THAT WITH GOING OUT FOR A RUN, I RUN AND WALK AND I THINK ABOUT MY WORK.

SO ABOUT MAYBE ONE-FIFTH OF MY TIME IS AWAY FROM THE WRITING AND IT IS OUT WALKING AND THAT IS PART OF THE WRITING.

IF ONLY I COULD STAY IN THAT STAGE I AM IN RIGHT NOW WHICH IT IS A REVISION BECAUSE I LOVE THAT.

>>LORENE: BUT YOU ACTUALLY DO YOUR ORIGINAL VERSION BY LONG HAND, DON'T YOU?

>>JOYCE: WELL THE ORIGINAL ONE, YES, I WRITE IN LONGHAND, I STILL HAVE A LOT OF NOTES.

LIKE WHEN I AM REVISING, I WILL HAVE SOME NOTES ON A TABLE OR ON A CHAIR AND I AM WORKING, YOU KNOW, I LIKE MY OWN HANDWRITING.

I FIND THAT IF I DON'T HAVE THE HANDWRITING, I DON'T HAVE AS MUCH CONFIDENCE.

>>LORENE: ARE THESE LEGAL PADS AND ARE THEY MOUNTAINOUS BY THE TIME YOU ARE DONE?

>>JOYCE: YEAH, BY THE TIME I AM DONE.

IN THE BEGINNING, THEY ARE SCRAPS OF PAPER LIKE A SHEET OF PAPER, I MEAN BACK AT THE HOUSE THEY ARE JUST ON A CHAIR, BUT BACK HOME I HAVE HUGE FOLDERS OF ALL SORTS OF THINGS, I MEAN I HAVE LOTS OF MATERIAL.

I HAVE PLANS FOR THE NEXT NOVEL AFTER THAT AND THAT HAS ALREADY STARTING TO GET FILLED.

>>LORENE: WHAT IS THE NAME OF THE NEXT NOVEL?

>>JOYCE: WELL THE NEXT NOVEL, THE ONE I AM WORKING ON HERE IS CALLED BABYSITTER .

BABYSITTER .

IT IS NAMED FOR A SERIAL KILLER WHO IS NEVER APPREHENDED.

HE KILLED A NUMBER OF CHILDREN IN 1976, 1977, IN THE DETROIT AREA IN MICHIGAN IN THE NORTHERN SUBURBS.

I WAS LIVING IN DETROIT AT THAT TIME AND SO I WANTED TO WRITE ABOUT THAT TIME IN OUR HISTORY, THE POST-VIETNAM WAR AND POST THE 60S THERE WERE SO MANY ASSASSINATIONS.

THE DETROIT RIOT ALONG WITH OTHER CIVIL UPRISINGS, CIVIC UPRISINGS AROUND THE COUNTRY WAS 1967 AND EVERY SUMMER THERE WOULD BE SOME FLARING UP IN SOME CITY AND SO I'M KIND OF WRITING ABOUT THAT ERA IN THE 1970S POST-NIXON.

BUT IT IS CALLED BABYSITTER BECAUSE IT IS ABOUT THIS SERIAL KILLER, HIS EFFECT ON THE COMMUNITY, LIKE ALL THE MOTHERS ARE SO WORRIED ABOUT THEIR CHILDREN, WHICH IS WHAT I REMEMBER.

>>LORENE: AND THEY ARE NOT HIRING ANY BABYSITTERS THAT THEY HAVEN'T KNOWN FOR YEARS AND YEARS AND YEARS.

>>JOYCE: WELL THIS PERSON IS OBVIOUSLY, HE IS A MAN, HE IS A PEDOPHILE.

IT IS A VERY HORRIFIC PEDOPHILE, A SERIES OF PEDOPHILE KILLINGS AND SOME MUTILATIONS AND SO FORTH.

HE WAS NEVER APPREHENDED, POLICE THINK THEY KNEW WHO IT WAS AND HE IS NOT LIVING ANY LONGER.

THERE ARE TWO CANDIDATES IF YOU GO ONLINE TO READ ABOUT IT.

>>LORENE: SO YOU ARE, A LOT OF YOUR WORK IS INFLUENCED BY POPULAR CULTURE AND I KNOW YOU ARE A GREAT FAN OF POPULAR CULTURE.

YOU MENTIONED THE PANDEMIC AND WORKING ON ONE OF THESE BOOKS DURING THE PANDEMIC, SO HOW DO YOU FEEL THAT IT HAS AFFECTED ALL OF US AND I KNOW YOU ARE AN AFICIONADO OF TWITTER, I LOVE TO HEAR YOUR FEELINGS ABOUT SOCIAL MEDIA THESE DAY AND EMILY DICKINSON AND TWITTER.

>>JOYCE: WELL THERE ARE QUITE A FEW ISSUES THERE.

>>LORENE: I KNOW.

>>JOYCE: DID YOU WANT ME TO TALK ABOUT JUST THE EFFECT OF THE LOCKDOWN?

>>LORENE: YEAH, YEAH.

>>JOYCE: WELL I THINK WE ALL WENT THROUGH STAGES.

SO I REMEMBER MARCH 2020 IN NEW JERSEY, PROBABLY NOT THE SAME EXPERIENCE FOR NEW MEXICO, IN NEW JERSEY AND NEW YORK STATE, IN NEW YORK CITY AND NEW JERSEY WENT ON LOCKDOWN RIGHT AWAY, I THINK WE WERE THE FIRST ONES.

SO THE REST OF THE COUNTRY WAS NOT EVEN AWARE OF MUCH OF IT, I THINK PEOPLE IN AMERICA THOUGHT IT WAS LIKE A NEW YORK CITY PHENOMENON.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

>>JOYCE: A LOT OF IMMIGRANT CULTURE AND LOTS OF TOURISTS.

>>LORENE: AND ALL THE PEOPLE COMING FROM EUROPE.

>>JOYCE: ASIAN AMERICANS COMING TO NEW YORK, SO IT SEEMED THAT MAYBE IT WOULD BE JUST IN THAT PART OF THE WORLD.

BUT THEN NEW JERSEY WENT INTO LOCKDOWN AND WE WERE TOLD, "STAY IN YOUR HOUSE, DON'T GO OUT, WEAR A MASK."

NO, I THINK THEY DIDN'T SAY MASKS YET.

>>LORENE: AT THE BEGINNING.

>>JOYCE: BUT IN THE BEGINNING PEOPLE WERE COWERING AND AFRAID AND I MAY HAVE ACTUALLY HAD A MASK BECAUSE I HAD A FRIEND WHO WAS A RESEARCH SCIENTIST AND SHE KNEW WHAT IT WAS.

BUT MOST PEOPLE INCLUDING THE MEDIA DIDN'T KNOW AND THEY WERE GIVING LOTS OF FALSE IDEAS YOU KNOW, LIKE YOU BRING YOUR GROCERIES IN AND WASH EACH PIECE OF LETTUCE VERY CAREFULLY AND WASH YOUR HANDS MANY TIMES.

LATER ON IT TURNED OUT IT IS MOSTLY AIRBORNE WHICH IS WHAT WE THINK NOW.

BUT IN THE BEGINNING WE DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING AND WE DIDN'T KNOW WHETHER WE WOULD STILL BE ALIVE IN A COUPLE OF WEEKS.

SO, I COMMUNICATED WITH THE WORLD WITH EMAIL AND TO A LESSER EXTENT ON THE TELEPHONE, BUT MOSTLY EMAIL.

AND PEOPLE COULDN'T SLEEP AND WE WERE WALKING AROUND IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT AND LOOKING OUT THE WINDOW AND I HAD TWO CATS AND YOU KNOW PETTING MY CATS AND EVERYTHING WAS VERY JUMPY.

NOW AS TIME WENT ON WE LEARNED TO ADJUST, BUT I REMEMBER I WROTE A PIECE FOR THE TLS, TIMES LITERARY SUPPLEMENT , SO I HAD PRESERVED THOSE EARLY HOURS, HOW WE WERE IN THE EARLY HOURS AND IT WAS VERY ANXIOUS, PEOPLE WERE VERY ANXIOUS.

YOU WOULD SIT DOWN AND THEN STAND UP AND WALK AROUND AT LIKE FOUR IN THE MORNING OR YOU WERE LOOKING OUT A WINDOW AND READING AND SO FORTH.

HOWEVER, AS THE TIME WENT BY, WE GOT MORE ADJUSTED AND I THINK WE FELL INTO ROUTINES.

I WAS DOING TEACHING, SO I HAD MY SCHEDULE AND MY STUDENTS AND WE ALL KIND OF GOT BACK INTO A SENSE OF EQUILIBRIUM.

WELL, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN HANDLE THE DAY, JUST OBSERVE THE GUIDELINES AND DON'T DO ANYTHING RASH OR RECKLESS.

SO WE GOT THROUGH IT AND THEN ALL AROUND THE COUNTRY GRADUALLY, THE VIRUS WAS SPREADING, SO FINALLY IT WAS MORE OR LESS UBIQUITOUS.

IN THE BEGINNING THERE WAS VERY LITTLE INFECTION IN CANADA, THEY WERE REALLY AMAZING, THEY SHUT THE BORDER.

>>LORENE: THEY SHUT THE BORDER, YEAH.

>>JOYCE: BUT THEN MANY MONTHS LATER, ONTARIO BECAME EXTREMELY INFECTIOUS.

SO, CASES WERE RISING IN ONTARIO, BUT THEY WERE GOING DOWN IN NEW YORK, SO IT WAS ALWAYS AN UNPREDICTABLE EXPERIENCE.

SO, WHEN YOU SPEAK OF THE PANDEMIC, IT REALLY DEPENDS UPON WHERE YOU WERE AND WHEN AND HOW YOU DEALT WITH IT, AND EVERYONE I KNEW WAS TRYING TO GET VACCINATED AS SOON AS THERE WAS VACCINE.

AND WE COULDN'T, WE SPENT WEEKS AND WEEKS AND WEEKS TRYING TO GET VACCINATED, IT WAS A NEW SOURCE OF ANXIETY.

>>LORENE: BUT WHAT A RELIEF IT WAS WHEN YOU FINALLY GOT IT.

YEAH.

>>JOYCE: FINALLY.

AND ALMOST EVERYBODY FINALLY GOT VACCINATED BY ACCIDENT.

IN OTHER WORDS, YOU KEPT TRYING AND NOBODY WOULD ANSWER AND YOU TRY AGAIN, TRY AGAIN BUT THEN ONE DAY, THE EMAIL IS ANSWERED, LIKE WE NEVER KNEW WHY.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT WAS LIKE IN NEW MEXICO, IT MAY HAVE BEEN TOTALLY DIFFERENT.

>>LORENE: I ACTUALLY GOT A CALL ON CHRISTMAS EVE FROM THE HOSPITAL ASKING ME IF I COULD COME DOWN TO THE HOSPITAL IN HALF AN HOUR, ON CHRISTMAS EVE.

>>JOYCE: CHRISTMAS EVE?

>>LORENE: THAT'S WHEN I GOT MY FIRST SHOT.

>>JOYCE: WELL THAT WAS EARLY.

>>LORENE: IT WAS EARLY, I AM VERY GRATEFUL, I AM VERY GRATEFUL.

>>JOYCE: THAT WAS VERY EARLY, MINE WAS NOT UNTIL MARCH.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

SO SOCIAL MEDIA AFFECTED A LOT OF OUR KNOWLEDGE.

THERE WAS A LOT OF MISINFORMATION AND THINGS.

>>JOYCE: YES.

>>LORENE: BUT YOU DO LIKE TWITTER AND I AM A FOLLOWER OF YOUR TWEETS.

YOU HAD MADE A VERY LOVELY COMPARISON WITH EMILY DICKINSON AND HER CONCISE... >>JOYCE: YES.

>>LORENE: SO TELL US THAT.

>>JOYCE: WELL EMILY DICKINSON ALMOST SEEMS LIKE THE IDEAL POET OF THE LOCKDOWN BECAUSE EVERYTHING IS VERY, VERY BEAUTIFUL BUT IT IS VERY SMALL AND KIND OF POLISHED.

SHE WORKED AT HER POETRY FOR A LONG TIME AND EACH LINE IS VERY EXQUISITE AND SHE DOESN'T HAVE LONG RAMBLING MEANDERING THINGS.

SHE'S LIKE LITTLE JEWELS, SO SHE IS LIKE AN IDEAL PERSON I THINK FOR THE AGE OF TWITTER.

>>LORENE: NOW ONE OF MY FAVORITE OF ALL OF YOUR BOOKS, THIS, IT'S CALLED WILD NIGHTS .

TELL US, BECAUSE THERE IS A PART ABOUT EMILY DICKINSON IN HERE.

>>JOYCE: YES.

>>LORENE: TALK ABOUT GENRE BENDING, PLEASE TELL OUR AUDIENCE WHAT YOU DID IN THIS WONDERFUL BOOK.

>>JOYCE: THE BOOK WAS ASSEMBLED AROUND THE IDEA OF ORIGINALLY DRAMATIZING THE LAST DAYS OF CERTAIN CLASSIC AMERICAN WRITERS.

I WAS GOING TO FOCUS ON THEIR LAST DAYS LIKE HEMINGWAY IS THE DAY HE COMMITS SUICIDE AND THERE IS A LONG FLASHBACK AND WE SEE WHY HE COMMITS SUICIDE BY THE END OF THE NOVELLA.

AND THEN THERE IS THE HENRY JAMES STORY ABOUT THE LAST MONTHS OF HENRY JAMES' LIFE WHICH ARE TOTALLY SURPRISING.

HERE IS HENRY JAMES WHO IS NOT AT ALL A PHYSICAL PERSON, HE VOLUNTEERED TO WORK ON THE HOSPITAL IN LONDON TO TAKE CARE OF WOUNDED YOUNG MEN, WOUNDED IN WORLD WAR I, AND HERE IS HENRY JAMES DOING THIS WITH BANDAGES AND AROUND BEDPANS AND I MEAN IT WAS TOTALLY SURPRISING TO ME TO DISCOVER THAT HENRY JAMES, SO I WANTED TO WRITE ABOUT THAT.

THEN I READ ABOUT EDGAR ALLAN POE ALMOST LIKE AN AFTERLIFE, IT IS NOTHING THAT HE EXPERIENCED, IT IS SOMETHING THAT I INVENTED.

THEN THE EMILY DICKINSON IS NOT HER LAST DAYS, BUT SHE HAS BEEN BROUGHT BACK TO LIFE AS A REPLICANT, SHE IS LIKE A ROBOT ABOUT THIS TALL.

AND SO IF YOU LOVE EMILY DICKINSON, YOU COULD JUST BUY A ROBOT AND HAVE HER LIVE IN YOUR HOUSE AND IT IS AN INGENIOUS ROBOT THAT CAN SPEAK LIKE SHE SPOKE AND IT HAS A LITTLE MOTOR LIKE A COMPUTER BRAIN WHICH HAS BEEN PROGRAMMED TO BE BASICALLY EMILY DICKINSON, WHICH I THINK ONE COULD SORT OF DO.

YOU TAKE A WRITER LIKE SHAKESPEARE AND YOU PUT ALL OF HIS VOCABULARY IN A COMPUTER AND THEN WHATEVER THEY DO WITH COMPUTER SCIENCE, I HAVE NO IDEA I MUST SAY.

AND THEN YOU CREATE THIS PROGRAM WHERE IT CAN RESPOND TO SOMEBODY ASKING A QUESTION.

WE ALREADY HAVE THOSE ROBOT SITUATIONS WHERE THE ROBOT WILL SAY, "WHAT CAN I DO FOR YOU" AND THEN YOU SAY SOMETHING AND THEN ROBOT ANSWERS.

BUT IN MY STORY, THE EMILY DICKINSON ROBOT IS MUCH MORE COMPLEX AND SO SHE CAN INTERACT WITH THE FAMILY AND THEN A KIND OF DARKLY COMIC ROMANCY VOWS WHERE HER HUSBAND AND WIFE BOTH FALL IN LOVE WITH HER.

>>LORENE: WELL UNFORTUNATELY, WE DON'T HAVE TIME TO HEAR HOW THAT TURNS OUT.

>>JOYCE: I AM SORRY BECAUSE IT IS VERY ROMANTIC AT THE END.

>>LORENE: YES, YES, BUT THAT IS ANOTHER ONE OF YOUR GENRES, THE ROMANCE.

BUT I AM JUST SO GRATEFUL YOU CAME.

WE ARE SPEAKING TODAY WITH JOYCE CAROL OATES, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HER NEWEST NOVEL CALLED BREATHE .

THIS YEAR YOU ALSO DID YOUR FIRST VOLUME OF POETRY.

>>JOYCE: YES AND THEY ARE QUITE RELATED, AMERICAN MELANCHOLY , THE PHOTOGRAPH ON THE COVER IS BY CHARLIE GROSS.

>>LORENE: OH AND THIS BOOK IS DEDICATED TO HIM.

>>JOYCE: AND THAT'S HIS PHOTOGRAPH, TOO.

>>LORENE: OH MY GOSH.

>>JOYCE: YEAH, THAT'S MY HUSBAND.

>>LORENE: OH, I DIDN'T KNOW THAT, WELL.

>>JOYCE: AND THEN THERE ARE TWO LITTLE DUCKS, YOU JUST SEE BARELY THEM.

SO, THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE THE COUPLE, ALMOST NOBODY COULD SEE ANYTHING BACK THERE.

>>LORENE: WELL NOW THAT I KNOW, I CAN SEE IT.

BUT I AM REALLY SO GRATEFUL TO YOU FOR ALL OF YOUR WORK, IT ENRICHES OUR LIVES SO MUCH, IT IS SUCH A GIFT TO US.

AND OUR GUEST TODAY IS JOYCE CAROL OATES.

THANK YOU FOR TAKING THE TIME TO BE WITH US.

>>JOYCE: THANK YOU.

THE CONVERSATION WENT VERY QUICKLY.

>>LORENE: IT CERTAINLY DID, I WISH IT WERE LONGER, BUT IT IS NOT.

AND I AM LORENE MILLS, I WOULD LIKE TO THANK YOU OUR AUDIENCE BEING WITH US TODAY ON REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM THE