REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM >>LORENE: HELLO, I AM LORENE MILLS AND WELCOME TO REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

WE HAVE A REAL TREAT TODAY, ONE OF MY VERY FAVORITE AUTHORS OF ALL TIMES IS HERE, JOYCE CAROL OATES.

WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

>>JOYCE: THANK YOU SO MUCH, LORENE, DELIGHTED TO BE HERE.

>>LORENE: YOU COME TO SANTA FE A LOT, DO YOU HAVE ANY PARTICULAR CONNECTION TO NEW MEXICO OR YOU JUST LIKE IT HERE?

>>JOYCE: OH, I HAVE A DEAR FRIEND.

HE IS A RETIRED ENGLISH PROFESSOR, BERRY QUALLS.

>>LORENE: YES.

>>JOYCE: HE RENTS A BEAUTIFUL HOUSE EVERY YEAR AND I STAY IN A ROOM AND WE GO TO THE OPERA.

IT IS JUST SO BEAUTIFUL.

>>LORENE: I AM SO GLAD BECAUSE IT IS MORE BEAUTIFUL WHEN YOU ARE HERE, THANK YOU.

>>JOYCE: WELL IT'S THE ANTITHESIS OF THE EAST, WHERE THE SKYLINE, THE LOOK OF THE SKY ITSELF, THE AIR, THE TEXTURE OF LIFE IS SO DIFFERENT HERE.

THE VISUALS, THE KIND OF PLAINS.

IN THE EAST, THINGS ARE DIFFERENT, THE SKYLINE IS VERY CLOSE IN THE EAST, HERE, IT TENDS TO BE VAST.

>>LORENE: YES, AND ALSO BECAUSE THERE IS SO LITTLE HUMIDITY.

>>JOYCE: YES.

>>LORENE: YOU DON'T HAVE THE OPPRESSIVE FACTOR OF THE ATMOSPHERE, IT'S JUST LIKE BRIGHT AND DRY.

>>JOYCE: YES.

>>LORENE: AND ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE.

WE DON'T FEEL THE WEIGHT OF IT PRESSING YOU DOWN.

>>JOYCE: YES, D.H. LAWRENCE FELT THAT UPLIFT.

>>LORENE: YES.

AS A MATTER OF FACT, IT HELPS YOU BREATHE EASIER.

YOUR LAST BOOK WAS CALLED, BREATHE .

BUT LET ME TALK A LITTLE ABOUT YOUR BACKGROUND.

YOU PUBLISHED YOUR FIRST BOOK IN 1963, YOU HAVE SINCE PUBLISHED OVER 70 NOVELS, PLAYS, NOVELLAS, SHORT STORIES, POETRY, NONFICTION.

THE AWARDS, YOU HAVE BEEN A FINALIST FOR THE PULITZER PRIZE MANY TIMES, YOU HAVE GOTTEN THE NATIONAL BOOK AWARD, OH MY GOD, TWO O. HENRY AWARDS BECAUSE YOUR SHORT STORIES ARE SO EXQUISITELY CRAFTED.

THE NATIONAL HUMANITIES MEDAL, THE JERUSALEM PRIZE FOR THE FREEDOM OF THE INDIVIDUAL IN SOCIETY.

DIDN'T YOU JUST GET A FRENCH PRIZE?

>>JOYCE: I DID, YES.

>>LORENE: WELL, CONGRATULATIONS.

>>JOYCE: THANK YOU.

>>LORENE: ALL WELL DESERVED.

YOU TAUGHT AT PRINCETON FROM 1978 TO ABOUT 2014, YOU TAUGHT CREATIVE WRITING.

>>JOYCE: WELL I STILL TEACH ONE COURSE AT PRINCETON.

I RETIRED FROM FULL-TIME TEACHING, BUT I TEACH ONE WORKSHOP.

>>LORENE: IS IT CREATIVE WRITING?

>>JOYCE: YES.

>>LORENE: OH THOSE LUCKY STUDENTS!

>>JOYCE: THEY'RE WONDERFUL STUDENTS AT PRINCETON.

>>LORENE: YES, YES, OF COURSE, OF COURSE.

YOUR FRIEND, JOHN UPDIKE, SAID ABOUT YOU THAT "IF WE HAD THE TITLE FOR A WOMAN OF LETTERS, YOU MORE THAN ANYONE WOULD BE ENTITLED TO IT."

IT IS LOVELY.

>>JOYCE: VERY NICE.

>>LORENE: YES, SOME OF YOUR BACKGROUND.

YOU WENT TO THE SAME ONE-ROOM SCHOOL THAT YOUR MOM WENT TO AND YOUR SAINTED GRANDMOTHER WHO I JUST LOVE, SHE GAVE YOU YOUR FIRST LIBRARY CARD AND TYPEWRITER.

WHAT A COMBO.

MANY, MANY BOOKS, ONE OF YOUR FAVORITES WAS ALICE IN WONDERLAND.

>>JOYCE: YES.

>>LORENE: DO YOU STILL HAVE THAT BOOK?

>>JOYCE: I HAVE LITERALLY THE SAME BOOK.

I HAVE TAUGHT ALICE IN WONDERLAND AT PRINCETON AND I USED THAT SAME BOOK.

IT IS A CHILDREN'S EDITION, WITH SORT OF LARGE ILLUSTRATIONS, IT IS BEAUTIFUL.

>>LORENE: I HAVE A KIND OF COLLECTION OF ALICE IN WONDERLANDS BECAUSE I LOVE THEM SO MUCH.

>>JOYCE: OH REALLY.

>>LORENE: YES.

THERE ARE JUST SO MANY EDITIONS WITH SO MANY STRANGE ILLUSTRATIONS IN EACH ONE.

>>JOYCE: THAT'S RIGHT, YEAH BUT NOTHING LIKE TENNIEL.

>>LORENE: NO.

>>JOYCE: I MEAN HE'S SO WONDERFUL.

>>LORENE: YES, YES, YES.

I WOULD LOVE TO TAKE YOUR CLASS AND HAVE YOU EXPLICATE JABBERWOCKY FOR US, THOSE "SLITHY TOVES..." >>JOYCE: YES.

>>LORENE: "DID GYRE AND GIMBLE IN THE WABE."

ANYWAY.

SO YOUR WRITING PROCESS, YOU ARE KIND OF FAMOUS FOR HOW HARD YOU WORK.

CAN YOU TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHEN YOU START AND WHAT YOUR FORMAT IS?

>>JOYCE: WELL I LIKE TO GO WALKING OR RUNNING AND I THINK THROUGH WHAT I AM GOING TO WRITE AND I IMAGINE IT AS A KIND OF VISUAL, LITTLE CINEMATIC CHAPTER OR EPISODE AND THEN I COME BACK HOME AND TAKE NOTES USUALLY IN LONG-HAND AND AT A CERTAIN POINT, I START PUTTING IT INTO THE COMPUTER.

AND WHEN I TRAVEL I HAVE SHEETS OF PAPER, I AM USUALLY TAKING NOTES.

BUT THERE ARE DIFFERENT KINDS OF WRITING, ONE IS THE KIND OF WRITING THAT IS MORE FINISHED, AND THE OTHER IS SKETCHING AND I THINK YOU HAVE TO BE VERY QUICK.

IT IS LIKE A WATERCOLOR OR A SKETCH WERE YOU WOULD DO THE FIRST VERY QUICKLY AND THEN LATER ON YOU START REVISING AND TAKING TIME.

>>LORENE: WELL YOU WORK I THINK FROM EIGHT TO ONE AND THEN COME BACK IN THE LATE AFTERNOON AND POLISH UP WHAT YOU HAVE DONE?

>>JOYCE: YES, I WORK IN A SENSE ALL THE TIME AND I HAVE INTERRUPTIONS DOING OTHER THINGS.

>>LORENE: LUNCH, FOR EXAMPLE.

>>JOYCE: YEAH I LIKE TO START AROUND SEVEN, I LIKE TO START EARLY AND THEN GET SOME WORK DONE.

AND, OF COURSE, I HAVE TO TAKE CARE OF MY CATS WHO ARE QUITE DEMANDING AND THEY KIND OF DRAW ME AWAY FROM MY DESK.

>>LORENE: WELL, THEY ARE AN IMPORTANT PART OF YOUR PROCESS TOO.

>>JOYCE: YES, THEY ARE.

>>LORENE: YES.

ALSO YOU WRITE IN LONG-HAND.

>>JOYCE: WELL THE FIRST DRAFT.

>>LORENE: YES.

GOOD, GOOD.

WHAT I LOVE IS THE GENRE BENDING, NOT GENDER BENDING, BUT THE FACT THAT YOU DO EXPERIMENTAL THINGS.

ONE OF MY FAVORITE MORE EXPERIMENTAL BOOKS, THIS ONE IS CALLED, WILD NIGHTS , AND IN IT YOU DO STORIES ABOUT THE LAST DAYS OF FAMOUS WRITERS LIKE POE, DICKINSON, TWAIN, HEMINGWAY, AND YOU DO IT IN A STYLE OF THEIR OWN WRITING.

THIS IS A WONDERFUL BOOK, WILD NIGHTS .

>>JOYCE: YES, IT WAS VERY EXCITING TO DO THAT BECAUSE IT IS IN THEIR STYLE, BUT IT ALSO TAKES THEM TO PLACES THAT THEY WOULDN'T HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT.

I WRITE ABOUT THINGS THAT EDGAR ALLAN POE WOULD NOT HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT AND HEMINGWAY, I THOUGHT THERE WAS AN INTENSELY FEMININE AND TENDER SIDE TO HEMINGWAY THAT HE WAS AFRAID OF AND HE DIDN'T ACKNOWLEDGE SO I KIND OF EXPLORE THE MORE TENDER SIDE OF HEMINGWAY.

>>LORENE: WELL THAT IS KIND OF MIND BOGGLING BECAUSE HIS WHOLE IMAGE THE "MACHO" THING.

>>JOYCE: EXACTLY.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

>>JOYCE: WELL, BUT YOU KNOW IT IS A PERFORMANCE, THE WHOLE MACHO, THE PERSONA, IT IS A PERFORMANCE AND DEEP INSIDE HE HAD ANOTHER PERSONALITY AND HE WAS ACTUALLY VERY VULNERABLE, THAT IS WHY HE COMMITTED SUICIDE.

SO MY STORY REALLY FOCUSES ON THE DAY HE COMMITS SUICIDE IS WHEN MY STORY BEGINS.

>>LORENE: AH.

>>JOYCE: AND THERE IS A LOT OF FLASHBACK, AND WE SEE HOW HE IS MOVING TOWARD THAT SORT OF A CONFRONTATION WITH THE OTHER SIDE OF HIMSELF.

>>LORENE: IT DIDN'T MESH TOO WELL APPARENTLY.

>>JOYCE: RIGHT.

I FELT TREMENDOUS SYMPATHY FOR HEMINGWAY.

I REALLY FELT THAT I UNDERSTOOD HIM VERY WELL AND OF COURSE, HE HAD RUINED HIS HEALTH WITH HIS EXCESSIVE DRINKING.

HE WAS NATURALLY DEPRESSIVE, AND HE HAD MANY ACCIDENTS, HE WAS ACCIDENT PRONE.

HE HAD AIRPLANE ACCIDENTS WITH SMALL PLANES.

SO HE AT THE AGE OF 62 HE WAS QUITE REALLY VERY ELDERLY AND HE BASICALLY WORE OUT HIS LIFE.

I WAS VERY SYMPATHETIC WITH HIM I THOUGHT HE WROTE REALLY BEAUTIFUL PROSE.

>>LORENE: YES, HE WROTE BEAUTIFUL... >>JOYCE: BEAUTIFUL.

>>LORENE: SIMPLE, NATURAL LOVELY PROSE.

>>JOYCE: YES.

>>LORENE: THAT WAS ONE OF MY FAVORITE CHAPTERS.

>>JOYCE: YES, ME TOO.

>>LORENE: SO IN YOUR EXPERIMENTATION, THERE HAS COME OUT THROUGH SOCIAL MEDIA A FORM OF WRITING CALLED TWITTER THAT YOU ARE SO WONDERFUL AT.

NOW I HAVE TO TELL YOU, I AM NOT A BIG FAN OF TWITTER.

I AM SO HAPPY TO READ YOUR TWITTER ACCOUNTS BECAUSE FIRST OF ALL THEY ARE BEAUTIFULLY WRITTEN BUT YOUR PERSPECTIVE IS ALWAYS, IT IS LIKE HAVING A CONVERSATION WITH YOU.

>>JOYCE: I THINK OF IT AS A CONVERSATION.

>>LORENE: YES, YES.

THIS LAST THING THAT YOU HAVE BEEN WRITING ABOUT WAS THE DEATH OF IVANA TRUMP.

AND IT IS SO POIGNANT AND TRAGIC AND A LITTLE BIT SHOCKING.

>>JOYCE: SHOCKING, I FELT THAT WAY, YES, YES.

I SAW IT AS A KIND OF IMAGE OF THE DETERIORATION OF OUR DEMOCRACY.

YOU KNOW, THE WAY SHE IS PLACED IN THIS GRAVE WITH NOT EVEN ANY SOD OR GRASS OVER AND IT IS VERY PLAIN AND THEN OVER THERE IN THE BACKGROUND IS A MAN ON A GOLF CART.

YOU KNOW IT SO IRREVERENT AND SO DISRESPECTFUL, AND I THINK AS WOMEN TOO, WE ARE FEELING SOMETHING SPECIAL ABOUT THE DISRESPECT FOR THAT WOMAN.

>>LORENE: WELL SO IT TURNED OUT THAT SHE DIED FROM AN ACCIDENTAL FALL ON THE STAIRS, HER FORMER HUSBAND, TRUMP, DECIDED TO BURY HER ON ONE OF HIS GOLF COURSES IN A NOT PARTICULARLY LOVELY SPOT.

>>JOYCE: NOT AT ALL.

>>LORENE: WITH JUST DIRT OVER HER WITH A LITTLE MARBLE HEADSTONE WHICH HAD HER NAME AND HER DATES AND A BOUQUET THROWN DOWN AND THEN THE GOLF COURSE LIFE GOES ON.

>>JOYCE: YES.

>>LORENE: AND EVEN HER CHILDREN, I MEAN SOMEONE WOULD HAVE SAID, "MOM DESERVES BETTER THAN THIS."

>>JOYCE: I WOULD THINK SO.

THAT IS MYSTERIOUS TO ME.

>>LORENE: AND THE FACT THAT THEY HAD THE FULL-BLOWN CATHOLIC FUNERAL SERVICE AND THEN THEY HAD A PRIEST CONSECRATE THE GROUND THAT SHE WAS BURIED IN SO SHE COULD HAVE A REAL CATHOLIC BURIAL IN A RATHER EXPENSIVE CASKET, BUT THERE IT IS, WITH NO THOUGHT, IT IS THE ONLY GRAVE THERE.

AND OH MY GOSH, WE BOTH DISCOVERED THIS, HE GOT A LOT OF TAX BREAKS.

>>JOYCE: RIGHT.

>>LORENE: FOR BURYING HIS WIFE ON HIS GOLF COURSE, HIS FORMER WIFE.

>>JOYCE: YES, THERE IS A LAW IN NEW JERSEY IF YOU HAVE A NONPROFIT CEMETERY ON YOUR PROPERTY THAT QUALIFIES FOR A REDUCTION OF TAX.

>>LORENE: WELL, A SIGNIFICANT REDUCTION.

>>JOYCE: SIGNIFICANT.

>>LORENE: JUST WHEN YOU WONDER HOW LOW CAN A GREEDY BILLIONAIRE GO, AN ALLEGED BILLIONAIRE, YOU FIND OUT AND THE CHILDREN DIDN'T SAY, "YOU KNOW, LET'S MAKE IT NICE FOR MOM."

>>JOYCE: WELL WE REALLY DON'T KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON, WE HAVE NO IDEA REALLY ABOUT WHAT IS GOING ON.

IT IS JUST SEEMS FROM A DISTANCE LIKE A FARCE.

>>LORENE: YES.

ALMOST AS IF IT WERE A PARODY OF THE WORST THAT COULD HAPPEN AND THERE IT IS.

ARE THERE OTHER CONTEMPORARY EVENTS IN POPULAR CULTURE THAT HAVE SPARKED YOUR PIQUE AND INTEREST IN THE SAME WAY?

>>JOYCE: WELL, OVER THE YEARS I HAVEN'T WRITTEN ABOUT TRUMP, I DON'T THINK I WOULD ACTUALLY WRITE ABOUT HIM.

BUT, YOU KNOW, OVER THE YEARS, I LOOK UPON CERTAIN EVENTS IN OUR HISTORY AS BEING EXEMPLARY.

YOU KNOW THE CHARACTERS THAT ARE REPRESENTATIVE OR UNIVERSAL RATHER THAN JUST SPECIFIC PEOPLE, SO I HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT A NUMBER OF THINGS.

AND I AM INTERESTED IN THE PHENOMENON OF ICONOGRAPHY OF FAME, LIKE MARILYN MONROE, ELVIS PRESLEY, MIKE TYSON.

WHAT HAPPENS TO PEOPLE FROM VERY MODEST BACKGROUNDS WHO ARE TAKEN UP IN THIS JUGGERNAUT OF CELEBRITY AND THEY BECOME SORT OF SURROUNDED BY AN IDENTITY THAT IS NOT REALLY THEIR OWN IDENTITY AND IT COMES TO THEM FROM THE OUTSIDE AND I THINK THAT THEY SUFFOCATE INSIDE IT.

>>LORENE: WE ARE SPEAKING TODAY WITH JOYCE CAROL OATES AND YOU HAVE TOUCHED UPON ONE OF MY FAVORITE OF YOUR BOOKS, IT IS CALLED, BLONDE, AND IT IS ABOUT, PERHAPS ABOUT MARILYN MONROE.

IT IS WRITTEN IN A KIND OF IMPRESSIONISTIC STYLE, IT IS NOT A BIOGRAPHY.

>>JOYCE: OH YES, NO.

>>LORENE: WHAT DO YOU DO IN THIS BOOK?

>>JOYCE: WELL, I WOULD SAY IT IS LIKE A POST-MODERNIST AUTOBIOGRAPHY THAT SHE IS TELLING HER OWN STORY FROM BEYOND THE GRAVE.

IT IS A POSTHUMOUS RECOLLECTION OF NORMA JEAN BAKER LOOKING UPON HER LIFE AND I THINK WHEN PEOPLE GET OLDER, ESPECIALLY IF THEY ARE ILL, SAY THEY ARE IN BED WITH A FEVER, YOUR MIND SORT OF DETACHES FROM THE PRESENT AND YOU GO BACK TO THE BEGINNING.

SO SHE IS REMEMBERING HER CHILDHOOD, HER MOTHER WHO IS SO ELUSIVE, HER FATHER WHO IS NEVER PRESENT, SHE NEVER KNEW HIS IDENTITY.

AND I THINK THAT IS WHO OUR LIVES HAVE THESE MYSTERIES AND RIDDLES AND MAYBE NEAR THE END OF OUR LIVES, WE SORT OF DREAM BACK, WILLIAM BUTLER YEATS USED THE EXPRESSION "DREAMING BACK."

SO THE WHOLE NOVEL IS DREAMING BACK AND THEN IT MOVES TOWARD THE PRESENT AND IT IS THE LAST NIGHT OF HER LIFE AND IT ENDS AT THAT POINT.

>>LORENE: IT IS SO, SO POWERFULLY WRITTEN AND ONE OF THE REASONS I WAS PARTICULARLY HAPPY TO TALK WITH YOU NOW, IS THAT STARTING IN SEPTEMBER, ON SEPTEMBER 28, NETFLIX IS DOING AN ACTUAL, YOU KNOW, GIVING YOU CREDIT FOR WRITING BLONDE, A FILM OF BLONDE .

IT STARS ANA DE ARMAS.

>>JOYCE: ARMAS, YES.

>>LORENE: THIS WONDERFUL, BEAUTIFUL, SHE DOES HAVE THE VULNERABILITY OF MARILYN MONROE.

>>JOYCE: SHE IS REMARKABLE.

>>LORENE: YES.

AND THE LAUGH, YOU KNOW, I JUST SAW THE TRAILER, BUT IT IS DIRECTED BY ANDREW DOMINIC AND YOU SAID THAT YOU REALLY LIKED IT, YOU WERE SURPRISED THAT A MALE DIRECTOR COULD GIVE THIS BOOK THE FEMINIST INTERPRETATION I THINK THAT YOU INTENDED.

>>JOYCE: IT IS QUITE FASCINATING BECAUSE ANDREW DOMINIC IS A DIRECTOR WHO HAS DONE VERY MASCULINE MACHO FILMS IN THE PAST.

THERE IS ONE ABOUT THE ASSASSINATION OF JESSE JAMES AND THERE IS ANOTHER ABOUT HITMEN, SORT OF LIKE A TARANTINO FILM.

BUT THIS IS AN INTENSELY FEMINIST MOVIE AND HE IS NOT REALLY LOOKING AT HER WITH THAT MALE GAZE LOOKING AT HER, HE IS REALLY INSIDE HER, IT'S HER PERSPECTIVE AND IT IS SO REFRESHING AND REALLY UNEXPECTED I THINK AND YOU ARE WITH HER TOTALLY, IT IS FROM HER POINT OF VIEW BUT AT THE SAME TIME, IT IS EMOTIONALLY VERY DRAINING.

I HAD TO TURN IT OFF AND GO AWAY FOR A FEW HOURS AND COME BACK BECAUSE I THOUGHT IT WAS SO EMOTIONALLY VERY EXHAUSTING AND TURBULENT.

IT IS NOT A FEEL-GOOD MOVIE IN A CLICHÉD SENSE, IT'S MORE LIKE A TRAGEDY.

>>LORENE: BUT YOU KNEW, I MEAN IF YOU WERE THAT POWERFULLY AFFECTED AND IT WAS BASED ON YOUR BOOK.

>>JOYCE: RIGHT, BUT HERE YOU SEE HER AND YOU SEE HER AND EVEN THOUGH THAT IS NOT ACTUALLY NORMA JEAN BAKER, IT IS PROBABLY IS PRETTY MUCH THE WAY SHE WAS, YOU KNOW, THE VULNERABILITY AND SOME OF THE THINGS THAT SHE SAYS.

THE WAY SHE SPEAKS OF HERSELF IN THE THIRD PERSON, "MARILYN MONROE WAS A PERFORMANCE."

I MEAN THERE WAS NOT A MARILYN MONROE - THAT WAS A PERFORMANCE, BUT SHE WAS SORT OF STUCK WITH IT.

IT'S LIKE ELVIS PRESLEY HAD THESE PERFORMANCE TOO, AND ON THE ACTUAL PERSON IS SUFFOCATED INSIDE THIS BLOATED CARAPACE, VERY GROTESQUE, I THINK THE SAME THING HAPPENED WITH MARLON BRANDO, HE JUST LITERALLY MADE THIS ARMOR AROUND HIMSELF AND HE WAS SORT OF HIDDEN INSIDE.

IT IS JUST A THOUGHT THAT I HAVE ABOUT FAME AND THE ICONOGRAPHY OF FAME.

I WRITE ABOUT MIKE TYSON ALSO.

MIKE TYSON HAS HANDLED A LITTLE BETTER, HE HAS NOT SELF-DESTRUCTED IN THE SENSE HE HASN'T COMMITTED SUICIDE AND HE IS STILL MAKING A LIVING AND HE HAS A GOOD SENSE OF HUMOR, SO HE IS A LITTLE DIFFERENT FROM THE OTHERS.

>>LORENE: YES.

IT'S INTERESTING THOUGH, SINCE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT PERSONAS AND REALITY THAT HE ACTUALLY DID A FACIAL TATTOO.

>>JOYCE: YES.

>>LORENE: IT IS A MASK, A MOST MODEST MASK, BUT A MASK NONETHELESS.

>>JOYCE: IT IS LIKE A MASK, HE SAID THAT HE FELT UGLY AND THAT THE TATTOO WAS SOMETHING HE COULD HIDE BEHIND AS A SORT OF ABORIGINAL TATTOO LIKE AUSTRALIAN ABORIGINE I THINK.

>>LORENE: YEAH OR MAORI EVEN.

>>JOYCE: MAORI, I THINK IT IS ACTUALLY RATHER ATTRACTIVE.

>>LORENE: I DO TOO.

>>JOYCE: I HAVE GOTTEN USED TO IT NOW, I MEAN IN THE BEGINNING IT SEEMED SORT OF EXTREME.

I HAVEN'T SEEN MIKE TYSON IN A LONG TIME.

>>LORENE: WE WILL SEE HOW IT AGES.

>>JOYCE: YEAH, BUT I THINK IF I SAW HIM MORE OFTEN, I WOULD FEEL THERE WAS SOMETHING FOND AND AFFECTIONATE ABOUT THAT TATTOO.

IN THE BEGINNING IT SEEMED AGGRESSIVE BUT AS TIME GOES ON IT IS JUST SO IT SEEMS LIKE WELL THAT'S HIM.

>>LORENE: ALSO, IT'S SO NICE THAT IT IS NOT THE ENTIRE VISAGE.

>>JOYCE: YEAH, IT'S JUST ONE PLACE.

>>LORENE: IT IS ONE PART, YOU ARE RIGHT.

YOU BECOME MORE AND MORE FOND OF IT YOU KNOW AND SO I WILL HAVE TO LOOK AND SEE HOW HE IS LOOKING THESE DAYS.

AN EARLY STORY OF YOURS THAT I READ IS CALLED THREE GIRLS , IT IS FROM 1993 AND IT IS ABOUT TWO GIRLS WHO SEE WHAT THEY THINK IS MARILYN MONROE.

>>JOYCE: YES.

>>LORENE: PROBABLY IT IS.

IN THE STRAND BOOKSTORE.

>>JOYCE: THE STRAND, YES.

>>LORENE: AND THEY ARE KIND OF GIGGLING AND FOLLOWING HER AND THEN SHE REALIZES THAT... >>JOYCE: THEY RECOGNIZE HER, SHE'S GOT A MAN'S HAT ON.

>>LORENE: AND SALT COWBOY BOOTS, LONG OVERCOAT.

>>JOYCE: SHE WAS IN NEW YORK CITY AT THE ACTORS' STUDIO THEN AND MARILYN MONROE WHO I ACTUALLY KNEW SOME PEOPLE WHO KNEW HER, SOME OLDER NEW YORKERS.

SHE JUST TRAVELED AROUND NEW YORK IN PLAIN CLOTHES LIKE A WHITE SHIRT, SHE DIDN'T HAVE MAKEUP ON, AND A HAT.

PEOPLE DIDN'T KNOW WHO SHE WAS BECAUSE SHE WASN'T GLAMOROUS, SHE DIDN'T HAVE A LOT OF MAKEUP ON.

>>LORENE: YEAH, YEAH.

SO THIS STORY COULD POSSIBLY HAVE BEEN TRUE.

>>JOYCE: ABSOLUTELY.

SHE LOVED BOOKS AND SHE DID GO TO THE STRAND.

I MEAN THE STORY, ITSELF, IS OF COURSE FICTION, BUT IT IS NOT IMPOSSIBLE OR IMPROBABLE.

>>LORENE: AND THEN THEY END UP, THEY HAVE A KIND OF UNDERSTANDING, AND THEY SAY WELL WE WILL GET YOUR BOOKS FOR YOU SO YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE... >>JOYCE: YEAH SO YOU DON'T HAVE TO GO THROUGH THE LINE.

>>LORENE: AND THEN SHE GIVES THEM A COPY OF ONE OF THE BOOKS THAT IS POETRY BY MARIANNE MOORE.

>>JOYCE: YES.

>>LORENE: IT IS JUST A LOVELY STORY, IT IS A PERFECT STORY.

>>JOYCE: YEAH I THOUGHT IT WAS A STORY ABOUT SISTERHOOD, THAT MARILYN MONROE WAS GIVING A KIND OF BLESSING TO THESE TWO YOUNG WOMEN WHO ARE LESBIANS.

I MEAN THEY ARE STILL DISCOVERING THAT THEY LOVE EACH OTHER, YOU KNOW, AND SHE IS SORT OF GIVING A BLESSING TO THEM AND THERE IS NO MEN IN IT, IT IS JUST LIKE A SISTERHOOD.

>>LORENE: YES AND ALSO AS THEY SAW WHO IT TURNS OUT WAS MARILYN IN THE POETRY SECTION AND THEY WANTED TO BE POETS, TOO.

SO THERE WAS A PROFESSION ARTISTIC CONNECTION TOO.

>>JOYCE: YES.

>>LORENE: THAT THEY WERE AND THEN I THINK SHE LOOKED AT DOSTOYEVSKY TOO, TO BRING IN THE BIG GUN.

THAT WAS A BEAUTIFUL STORY.

WHY IS MARILYN SO IMPORTANT TO OUR CULTURE?

>>JOYCE: I THINK IT'S AN INTERESTING QUESTION.

I THINK BECAUSE SHE WAS JUST NORMA JEAN BAKER AND SHE COMES ALMOST OUT OF NOWHERE.

SHE DIDN'T HAVE A FATHER, SHE HAD A MOTHER WHO WASN'T REALLY ABLE TO TAKE CARE OF HER.

SO SHE IS LIKE AN ORPHAN, SHE WAS LITERALLY IN A NUMBER OF ORPHANAGES.

SHE WAS IN QUITE A FEW FOSTER HOMES.

I ONLY READ ABOUT ONE FOSTER HOME AND ONE ORPHANAGE, BUT SHE WAS IN QUITE A FEW.

SO THERE IS SOMETHING ABOUT HER, SHE IS LIKE A BEGGAR MAID IN A FAIRYTALE.

SHE'S THIS ORPHANED GIRL WHO IS TRANSMOGNIFIED BY OTHER PEOPLE, BY THE STUDIO.

THEY ARE LIKE MAGICIANS, THEY MAKE HER INTO SOMETHING THAT SHE ACTUALLY ISN'T, BUT SHE IS SO BEAUTIFUL SHE IS LIKE THIS MAGIC PRINCESS.

SHE HAS GOT BLEACHED BLONDE HAIR THAT PEOPLE THINK IS REAL, SHE IS VERY MADE UP AND GLAMOUROUS, IT IS NOT REALLY HER, BUT IT BECOMES HER.

SO I THINK THERE IS SOMETHING ABOUT A FAIRYTALE QUALITY OF A TRANSCENDENTAL EXPERIENCE THAT CAPTURES OUR ATTENTION.

>>LORENE: WELL I URGE EVERYONE TO READ BLONDE, BUT ALSO TO WATCH THE NETFLIX PRESENTATION TOO, BECAUSE SHE IS AS YOU SAID THE ICONOGRAPHY OF FAME, SHE IS AT THE APEX.

>>JOYCE: YES AND I THINK SHE EXUDES AN AIR OF INNOCENCE AND VULNERABILITY THAT OTHER GREAT BEAUTIES DID NOT.

ELIZABETH TAYLOR IS MUCH MORE HER OWN WOMAN AND KIND OF STRONG AND ALWAYS KNEW WHO SHE WAS AND I DON'T FEEL THAT ELIZABETH TAYLOR WAS EVER VULNERABLE.

I MEAN SHE WAS MUCH MORE SUCCESSFUL IN EVERY WAY, YOU KNOW IN TERMS OF HER MARRIAGES AND HER IDENTITY.

AVA GARDNER WAS VERY BEAUTIFUL, BUT SHE DIDN'T CARE ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE'S OPINIONS.

AND THERE ARE OTHER GREAT BEAUTIES BUT MARILYN MONROE IS ALSO VERY VULNERABLE, SO SHE IS ALMOST LIKE A CHILD.

SHE COMBINES THAT ADULT SEXUALITY WITH ALMOST INFANTILE INNOCENCE.

>>LORENE: YES, YES YOU ARE RIGHT.

I HAVEN'T GONE OVER YOUR BOOKS, BUT I WANT PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, TO JUST KNOW WHAT YOU HAVE WRITTEN AND SO THE LATEST BOOK - THESE ARE EXTRAORDINARY SHORT STORIES, IT IS CALLED EXTENUATING CIRCUMSTANCES , THIS IS QUITE A COLLECTION.

THEY ARE FIERCE, THEY ARE BEAUTIFULLY WRITTEN, THEY ARE UNFORGETTABLE.

>>JOYCE: WELL THANK YOU.

>>LORENE: REALLY POWERFUL.

>>JOYCE: AND THE COVER IS BY A YOUNG WOMAN ARTIST NAME LAURA HAUSLER.

SHE IS A FEMINIST ARTIST WITH VERY STRONG IMAGES ABOUT WOMEN MAINLY.

>>LORENE: ONE OF MY FAVORITE STORIES WAS THE FOOT.

>>JOYCE: OH THE FOOT, ONE OF MINE TOO.

>>LORENE: I LOVE THAT, I LOVE THAT.

YOUR LAST BOOK WAS CALLED BREATHE AND THAT IS VERY POWERFUL ALSO.

YOU ARE VERY FAMOUS FOR THE FALLS AND OPRAH LOVED THIS ONE, WE WERE THE MULVANEYS , YOU CAN'T GO WRONG READING ANY OF THESE.

AND MY SECRET DELIGHT BESIDES BLONDE IS THIS WILD NIGHTS , WHERE YOU EXPERIMENT WITH DIFFERENT STYLES OF WRITING AND REIMAGINING THE LAST DAYS OF SOME OF OUR MOST BELOVED AUTHORS.

>>JOYCE: YES, YOU PROBABLY LIKE THOSE WRITERS, YOU PROBABLY LIKE EMILY DICKINSON.

>>LORENE: I LOVE EMILY DICKINSON.

JUST A MOMENT ABOUT EMILY DICKINSON.

WE TALKED ABOUT TWITTER AND THE WONDERFUL SOCIAL COMMENTARY THAT YOU DO.

YOU ONCE SAID HERE ON THE SHOW ACTUALLY, SAID, "EMILY DICKINSON WAS THE PERFECT POET FOR TWITTER."

>>JOYCE: YES.

PERFECT.

YES.

>>LORENE: SHE IS SMALL, PRECISE.

>>JOYCE: YES.

>>LORENE: CAREFULLY CRAFTED.

>>JOYCE: YES.

>>LORENE: UNDERSTATED, POWERFUL, AND PERFECT.

>>JOYCE: AND A LITTLE BIT LIKE A RIDDLE THAT YOU HAVE TO READ IT A FEW TIMES.

>>LORENE: YEAH, YEAH, SO I WOULD LIKE TO SEE SOMEBODY DO SOME TWEETS.

>>JOYCE: SHE WOULD BE GREAT WITH TWITTER.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

WHAT ARE YOU WORKING ON NOW, AS IF YOU HAVEN'T WRITTEN 60 SOME ODD BOOKS ALREADY.

>>JOYCE: WELL RIGHT NOW I AM DOING SOME RESEARCH INTO 19TH CENTURY MALE PHYSICIANS, SURGEONS.

THERE WERE THREE MEN IN THE 19TH CENTURY WHO REALLY PREYED UPON WOMEN.

THESE ARE HISTORICAL PEOPLE.

ONE WAS J. MIRIAM SIMS, THE FATHER OF AMERICAN GYNECOLOGY.

ONE WAS WEIR MITCHELL, HE WAS ONE OF THE PSYCHOLOGISTS OR PSYCHIATRISTS AND THE OTHER WAS HENRY COTTON.

SO I AM DOING RESEARCH INTO THESE MEN WHO REALLY EXPERIMENTED UPON WOMEN AND HENRY COTTON DID A LOT OF EXPERIMENTAL SURGERY ON WOMEN.

HE WAS UNFORTUNATELY THE DIRECTOR OF THE NEW JERSEY STATE ASYLUM FOR FEMALE LUNATICS, IF YOU WILL EXCUSE THE EXPRESSION THAT WAS WHAT IT WAS CALLED.

>>LORENE: I KNOW.

>>JOYCE: SO I MEAN THE WORDS ARE NOT VERY POLITICALLY CORRECT BUT YOU KNOW FEMALE LUNATICS.

HE WAS OPERATING ON THEM AND I WON'T EVEN SAY WHAT HE WAS DOING TO THEM.

I FOUND IT SO SHOCKING AND WHAT IS INTERESTING IS THAT HE WAS ENABLED FOR 26 YEARS BY OTHER DOCTORS, NOBODY STOPPED HIM, HE DID GHASTLY THINGS.

SO THE NAME OF MY NOVEL, BUTCHER AND I WON'T SAY THAT IT IS FUN DOING THE RESEARCH BUT I AM LEARNING A LOT.

>>LORENE: YES, I WISH THERE WERE A MOTHER OF GYNECOLOGY.

>>JOYCE: OF COURSE, THERE SHOULD BE, THERE'S A FATHER.

>>LORENE: IT CERTAINLY SHOULD BE.

I LOOK FORWARD TO THAT, IT SOUNDS LIKE IT IS KIND OF TOUGH SLEDDING DOING THE RESEARCH.

>>JOYCE: YES, WELL THE FATHER OF AMERICAN GYNECOLOGY, J MIRIAM SIMS, HE WAS OPERATING ON ENSLAVED WOMEN, HE DIDN'T HAVE ANYONE'S CONSENT.

HE OWNED SLAVE WOMEN SO HE COULD DO ANYTHING, AND HE DIDN'T USE ANY ANESTHESIA AND SO THIS IS LIKE REAL TORTURE BUT ANYWAY IT IS JUST PART OF AN ONGOING SCIENTIFIC APPROPRIATION OF OTHER PEOPLE.

YOU PROBABLY KNOW THAT THERE WERE EXPERIMENTS WITH HOMELESS PEOPLE OR MENTALLY ILL. >>LORENE: WELL LOOK AT THE TUSKEGEE AIRMEN.

>>JOYCE: YEAH, EXACTLY.

>>LORENE: YEAH.

>>JOYCE: ANYONE WHO IS NOT PROTECTED OR WHO IS LIKE IN AN INSTITUTION THEY WERE EXPERIMENTING ON.

SO I HAVE BEEN DOING THAT RESEARCH AND IT IS VERY TIMELY.

>>LORENE: YES, IT CERTAINLY IS.

I AM AFRAID TIMELY, WE HAVE RUN OUT OF TIME.

>>JOYCE: OH, THAT WAS QUICK.

>>LORENE: I AM SO DELIGHTED TO HAVE YOU HERE, JOYCE CAROL OATES.

I CANNOT RECOMMEND THIS BOOK HIGHLY ENOUGH, I JUST LOVE IT.

>>JOYCE: THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>>LORENE: AND IT WILL BE ON NETFLIX STARTING IN THE FALL.

SO WE WILL SEE YOU THE NEXT TIME YOU ARE IN TOWN.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>>JOYCE: THANK YOU, A PLEASURE.

>>LORENE: AND I AM LORENE MILLS, I WOULD LIKE TO THANK YOU OUR AUDIENCE FOR BEING WITH US TODAY ON REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM