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TED: COMING UP NEXT ON "ARIZONA HORIZON," DETAILS ON A FEDERAL JUDGE BLOCKING THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION'S CHANGES TO VACCINE POLICIES.

>>> ALSO TONIGHT, HEALTH WARNINGS AS A RECORD-BREAKING HEAT WAVE APPROACHES.

>>> AND A NEW STUDY LOOKS AT WHY LEADERS LEAD AND FOLLOWERS FOLLOW.

THOSE STORIES AND MORE NEXT ON "ARIZONA HORIZON."

.

TED: GOOD EVENING, AND WELCOME TO "ARIZONA HORIZON."

I'M TED SIMONS.

A FEDERAL JUDGE YESTERDAY BLOCKED THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION FROM IMPLEMENTING NEW VACCINE GUIDELINES.

THE MOVE IS CONSIDERED A MAJOR BLOW TO HEALTH SECRETARY ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.

'S EFFORTS TO OVERHAUL THE COUNTRY'S VACCINE POLICIES, ESPECIALLY THOSE INVOLVING CHILDREN.

FOR MORE ON THE IMPACT OF THE RULING, WE WELCOME WILL HUMBLE, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE ARIZONA HEALTH ASSOCIATION.

>> HAPPY ST.

PATRICK'S DAY.

TED: APPRECIATE THE TIE FOR THE OCCASION.

BASICALLY THIS IS A TEMPORARY BLOCK OF EVERYTHING THAT RFK JR.

WAS TRYING TO DO REGARDING VACCINES?

>> RIGHT, GOES BACK TO LAST SUMMER AND THE JUDGE ISSUED A PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION, AND WHAT THAT MEANS IS THE JUDGE -- THERE WAS A LAWSUIT FILED BY THE AMERICAN ACADEMY OF PEDIATRICS AND THE AMERICAN PUBLIC HEALTH ASSOCIATION.

WENT TO COURT SAYING, HEY, THE WAY THAT SECRETARY KENNEDY IS MAKING THESE DECISION SAYS IMPROPER.

THEY MADE THE ARGUMENTS IN COURT.

HASN'T BEEN TO TRIAL OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

THE JUDGE GOES HEY, WE THINK WE'RE GOING TO WIN SO I'M GOING TO ISSUE A PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION WHICH ENDS THE THING THAT KENNEDY DID LAST SUMMER AND SENT IN THE VACCINE POLICY.

>> THE LAWSUIT SAID THAT BASICALLY THE VACCINE CHANGES THE QUOTES WERE ARBITRARY AND CAPRICIOUS, THE JUDGE SAID I THINK YOU GOT A POINT THERE.

>> CORRECT.

JUDGES DON'T TYPICALLY ISSUE PRELIMINARY INJUNCTIONS UNLESS THEY READ IT IN DETAIL AND SAY WE THINK YOU'RE GOING TO WIN AND THINK WE NEED TO STOP THIS NOW SO WE DON'T GO DOWN THIS PATH OF IMPLEMENTING A BAD POLICY, WHEN, IN FACT, MR.

KENNEDY, YOU DIDN'T FOLLOW THE PROCESS.

TED: SO WHAT IS STOPPED NOW?

>> SO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAPPENED IS LAST SUMMER KENNEDY -- REMEMBER, IT WAS ABOUT THE TIME WE WERE GETTING IN A FIGHT WITH DENMARK ABOUT GREENLAND AND SECRETARY KENNEDY SAYS, HEY, WE WANT TO FOLLOW THE WAY DENMARK DOES VACCINE SCHEDULE.

SO HE JUST CHANGED THE VACCINE SCHEDULE FOR SEVEN VACCINES.

IT WAS INFLUENZA, RSV, HEPATITIS A, HEPATITIS B, ROTOVIRUS, AND ONE I CAN'T THINK OF RIGHT THIS SECOND.

TED: I THINK YOU GOT THEM.

DID YOU GET FLU IN THERE?

>> SUPPOSED TO BE SIX.

TED: ALL RIGHT.

>> HE MOVED THEM FROM ROUTINELY RECOMMENDED TO SHARED CLINICAL DECISION-MAKING.

SO WHAT IT MEANT WAS PRACTICALLY, YOU COULD STILL GET THE VACCINES COVERED WITH HEALTH INSURANCE PLAN, BUT IT WAS A BIG HASSLE IN DOCTOR'S OFFICES BECAUSE THEY HAD TO SPEND A LOT MORE TIME -- THEY WERE ALREADY TRANSPARENT WITH VACCINES ON A RECOMMENDED SCHEDULE BUT HAD TO SPEND EXTRA TIME WITH THE SHARED CLINICAL DECISION-MAKING AND HURTING THE PEDIATRIC APPOINTMENTS, YOU CAN'T GET TO THE DEVELOPMENTAL SCREENS BECAUSE YOU'RE DOING ALL THIS OTHER STUFF DURING THE 20 MINUTES.

TED: THE OPERATIVE WORD IS PEDIATRIC, THIS INVOLVES KIDS.

>> CORRECT.

SO WHAT THE JUDGE SAID WAS SECRETARY KENNEDY, YOU DIDN'T FOLLOW THE RIGHT PROCESSES UNDER FEDERAL LAW.

SO THE JUDGE DIDN'T SAY WE DISAGREE WITH YOU MOVING HEPATITIS A AND HEPATITIS B AND BLAH, BLAH, BLAH.

HE SAID THERE IS A WAY TO DO THINGS UNDER THE FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMISSION ACT, WHICH I'D NEVER HEARD OF UNTIL THIS WEEK, AND THAT ACT TELLS PEOPLE ACROSS FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, LIKE HOW YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO MAKE DECISIONS WHEN THERE'S AN ADVISORY COMMITTEE THAT'S IN FEDERAL LAW.

AND HE DIDN'T FOLLOW THAT PROCESS.

TED: THE ADVISORY COMMITTEE WAS ALSO A FACTOR HERE FOR THE JUDGE BECAUSE HE SAID -- WHAT RFK JR.

GOT RID OF THE 17 MEMBER COMMISSION AND PUT A WHOLE BUNCH OF FOLKS WHO ARE LIKE MINDED IN THERE, AND THE JUDGE SAID, WHOA.

>> THAT'S RIGHT, HE DISMISSED THE ADVISORY COMMITTEE FOR PRACTICES AND PUT HIS OWN PEOPLE IN, BUT THERE'S A PROCESS UNDER THE FEDERAL ADVISORY COMMISSION ACT HOW YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO VET THEM.

WHAT QUALIFICATIONS ARE THEY SUPPOSED TO HAVE?

DID YOU LOOK FOR CONFLICTS OF INTEREST?

THEY DIDN'T DO ANY OF THAT STUFF, AND THE JUDGE IS LIKE, YOU PUT ALL THESE PEOPLE ON THIS COMMISSION, AND LOOKS LIKE -- WE TALKED ABOUT THIS ON THE SHOW A FEW MONTHS AGO, YOU ARE PRIMING THE -- STACKING THE DECK WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE ALREADY ANTI-VACCINE.

THAT ISN'T THE WAY YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO DO IT.

THAT'S WHY HE ISSUED THE INJUNCTION.

TED: AS YOU MENTIONED, MUST BE SCIENTIFICALLY BASED, THE JUDGE SAID WAS REQUIRED.

FAIRLY BALANCED.

QUESTIONS THERE.

AND AGAIN FREE FROM UNDUE INFLUENCE.

>> CORRECT.

SO THE JUDGE FELT LIKE THE NEW PEOPLE KENNEDY PUT IN THE COMMITTEE DIDN'T GO THROUGH THE PROCESS, AND SO NOW IT'S GOING TO GO TO TRIAL, WE'LL FIND OUT WHAT HAPPENS.

BUT IN THE MEANTIME, IT'S BACK TO HOW IT WAS DURING THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION WITH RESPECT TO VACCINES.

>> I WANT TO GET TO IN THE MEANTIME IN A SECOND HERE.

AGAIN, THE JUDGE SAYING MANY OF THE FOLKS PUT ON THE COMMISSION APPEARED TO NOT HAVE MEANINGFUL EXPERIENCE IN VACCINES.

>> THAT'S TRUE.

THERE'S A BUNCH OF THEM THAT ARE JUST INFLUENCERS WHO HAVE OPINIONS ABOUT VACCINE BUS DON'T HAVE THE ACADEMIC CREDENTIAL, DON'T HAVE THE WORK HISTORY TO REVIEW, UNDERSTAND THE CLINICAL STUDIES THAT GO INTO THE VACCINE RECOMMENDATIONS, AND SO I MEAN, I AGREE WITH THE JUDGE BECAUSE I SAW ALMOST ALL OF THEM.

THERE'S A COUPLE THAT HAVE ACTUAL REASONABLE CREDENTIALS, BUT MOST OF THE PEOPLE ON THE COMMITTEE ARE NOT PEOPLE THAT ARE QUALIFIED TO MAKE THESE KINDS OF RECOMMENDATIONS IN MY OPINION.

TED: WHAT KIND OF RESPONSE FROM RFK JR.?

>> I HAVEN'T HEARD ANYTHING, I DON'T FOLLOW HIM ON TWITTER OR ANYTHING.

TED: THIS HAS TO BE A HUMILIATING OR HUMBLING EXPERIENCE.

EVERYTHING HE'S FOUGHT FOR AS FAR AS VACCINES HE'S TRY TO DO THROUGH X, Y, AND Z AND THE JUDGE SAYS NO, NO, AND NO.

>> RIGHT.

I DON'T KNOW HOW HE FEELS ABOUT IT.

WHAT I LIKE IS THE POLICIES ARE BACK TO HOW THEY USED TO BE.

TED: WHAT ARE THE POLICIES?

EVERYTHING IS REVERTED BACK.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN IN TERMS OF PROCESS, JUST IN TERMS OF MONEY, IN TERMS OF REFUNDING, OR DOES IT MEAN ANYTHING?

>> WELL, I THINK THERE'S BEEN SOME DAMAGE THAT'S ALREADY BEEN DONE IN THE INTERIM PERIOD WHERE IT FEEDS INTO THIS ANTI-VACCINE ATTITUDE THAT KENNEDY HAS, AND SOME PEOPLE LISTEN TO HIM, AND SO I THINK IT'S ERODED SOME VACCINATION RATES.

IT'S HURT SOME OF THE DOCTOR'S VISITS BECAUSE THE TIME WASN'T USED AS WISELY AS IT COULD HAVE BEEN, BUT I'M PLEASED THAT THE JUDICIAL BRANCH IS, YOU KNOW, HERE IT IS, THANK GOODNESS FOR CHECKS AND BALANCES.

>> HOW LONG WILL IT REVERT BACK?

HOW LONG IT WILL STAY THERE?

WE HAVE A PROCESS REGARDING THE PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION, THEN WE HAVE THE TRIAL.

WHAT ARE WE TALKING ABOUT HERE?

>> WE DON'T KNOW.

IT'S A MATTER OF WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN WITH THE TRIAL, ARE THEY GOING TO APPEAL THE PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION?

IS THAT GOING TO HAPPEN?

I CAN'T ANSWER THAT QUESTION, I DON'T REALLY KNOW.

I CAN SAY THE ADVISORY COMMITTEE FOR IMMUNIZATION PRACTICES WAS SUPPOSED TO MEET LATER THIS WEEK, AND THAT MEETING IS NOW CANCELED BECAUSE OF THE RULING.

TED: YEAH, YEAH.

CAN'T HAVE A MEETING WHEN THEY'RE NOT QUALIFIED.

LAST QUESTION, I WANT TO GO BACK TO SOMETHING YOU SAID EARLIER, HOW MUCH DAMAGE HAS BEEN DONE?

>> IT'S DAMAGE, BUT IT'S NOT LIKE AN EXISTENTIAL DAMAGE, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

IT'S NOT LIKE THE INTERIM PERIOD REALLY DESTROYED VACCINE POLICY.

NOW IF KENNEDY HAD DELICENSED SOME OF THOSE VACCINES AND MADE THEM UNAVAILABLE, THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN REALLY DAMAGING, BUT MOVING IT LIKE HE DID FROM ROUTINE RECOMMENDATION TO SHARED CLINICAL DECISION MAKING IS HARMFUL BUT NOT LIKE THE END OF THE WORLD.

TED: HERE'S MY REAL LAST QUESTION HERE, IS THERE SOMETHING HE CAN DO TO GET AROUND THIS JUDGE'S DECISION TO GET HIS VACCINE POLICIES ENACTED?

>> YES.

TED: AND -- >> THAT'S ANOTHER SHOW.

TED: THERE'S ANOTHER WAY AROUND THIS FOR HIM?

>> OH, YEAH, NOT ON THIS ISSUE BUT A DIFFERENT MECHANISM THROUGH THE VACCINE INJURY COMPENSATION FUND.

TED: HOLY SMOKES, THAT IS A TOTALLY DIFFERENT SHOW.

WE'LL HAVE YOU BACK ON THAT ONE.

GOOD TO HAVE YOU HERE.

>> MY PLEASURE.

.

TED: A RECORD-SETTING HEAT WAVE IS FORECAST FOR THE REMAINDER OF THE WEEK WITH THE VALLEY EXPECTING ITS EARLIEST 100-DEGREE DAY IN HISTORY, AND WITH THOSE UNSEASONAL TEMPERATURES COME HEALTH WARNINGS REGARDING HEAT EXPOSURE.

JOINING US IS DR.

DAVID SKLAR FROM ASU'S JOHN SHUFELDT SCHOOL OF MEDICAL ENGINEERING.

>> GOOD TO BE HERE.

TED: TOMORROW WE'RE HEADING FOR TRIPLE DIGITS HERE.

THE AVERAGE DAY FOR THIS HEAT IS MAY 2nd.

SOMETHING SO QUICK, SOMETHING THAT SPIKES THIS MUCH, HOW BIG A DEAL IS THIS?

>> IT'S A BIG DEAL.

A LOT OF PEOPLE FROM OTHER PLACES WHO COME HERE DURING SPRING BREAK ARE NOT GOING TO BE PREPARED FOR THIS.

THEY'RE COMING HERE TO GO HIKING IN OUR MOUNTAINS AND TO GET OUT AND ENJOY THE BEAUTIFUL WEATHER AND THE BEAUTIFUL PLACE WE HAVE HERE, BUT UNFORTUNATELY, IT'S A KIND OF A DIFFERENT SETTING FROM, I THINK, WHAT THEY EXPECT.

>> I WANT TO GET TO THE VISITORS IN A SECOND.

THOSE OF US WHO LIVE HERE, TALKING 20, 25 DEGREES ABOVE NORMAL AT A TIME WHEN -- DOES YOUR BODY SEE THE SUN AND THE SKY AND CIRCADIAN RHYTHMS AND EXPECT X AND WE WIND YOU OF GETTING X+ 25?

IS THAT A PROBLEM?

>> IT IS A PROBLEM.

WE'RE NOT ACCLIMATED TO THE TEMPERATURE.

FORTUNATELY, OVER TIME WHEN IT STARTS TO GET WARM AND WE GET TOWARD THE SUMMER, PEOPLE DO ACCLIMATE.

THEY LEARN TO DEAL WITH THE HEAT.

THEY SWEAT A LITTLE BIT MORE, AND THEY'RE ABLE TO DISSIPATE THE HIGH TEMPERATURE IN THEIR BODY, BUT WHEN IT SUDDENLY HITS THE WAY IT'S GOING TO HIT US IN THE NEXT FEW DAYS, PEOPLE AREN'T PREPARED.

TED: AND IT'S A TIME OF YEAR PEOPLE LIKE GOING OUTSIDE BECAUSE THE WEATHER USUALLY IS WONDERFUL?

>> THEY'VE MADE PLANS TO GO GOLFING OR JOGGING OR HIKING, AND THEY DON'T WANT TO STOP THOSE PLANS AND THEY HAVE VISITORS.

I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE A REAL CHALLENGE FOR PEOPLE BECAUSE ON THE OTHER HAND, EVERYBODY DOES WANT TO BE SAFE, BUT I DON'T THINK THEY REALIZE THE DANGERS, PARTICULARLY IF THEY START HIKING AND GO UP A -- ONE OF OUR BEAUTIFUL MOUNTAINS AND END UP GOING FURTHER THAN THEY THOUGHT THEY WOULD.

THEY DON'T BRING ENOUGH WATER, AND THEY CAN END UP GETTING IN BIG TROUBLE REALLY FAST.

TED: ESPECIALLY IF YOU GO DOWN ONE OF THE TRAILS AND YOU GO I GOT TO WALK BACK UP TO GET OUT, PROBLEMS DEVELOP.

>> YES.

TED: TALK ABOUT HEAT STRESS.

IS IT THE SAME AS HEAT EXHAUSTION?

>> THERE'S SEVERAL LEVELS OF HEAT OR HEAT ELEMENTS.

AND THE FIRST IS HEAT CRAMPS, WHERE YOUR ARMS AND LEGS START TO CRAMP UP.

IT'S PAIN, AND OFTENTIMES PEOPLE WHO WORK OUT DOING VARIOUS OCCUPATIONS ON ROOFS AND LANDSCAPING, THEY'LL GET THOSE CRAMPS, AND IF YOU CAN GET INSIDE, GET SOME WATER, THE CRAMPS WILL GRADUALLY DISSIPATE.

AFTER THAT, YOU CAN GET THE NEXT LEVEL WHICH IS HEAT EXHAUSTION, AND SOMETIMES HEAT SIN COPEY, YOU GET A HEADACHE AND PEOPLE FEEL THE SYMPTOMS OF HEADACHEY, THEY DON'T FEEL THEIR NORMAL SELF, THEY DON'T HAVE THE USUAL ENERGY, AND AFTER THAT AS THE BODY TEMPERATURE GETS HIGHER AND HIGHER AND BODY IS TRYING TO COMPENSATE WITH THE STRESS, THEY CAN DEVELOP HEAT STROKE, WHICH IS WHEN THEY BECOME CONFUSED, THEY DON'T REALLY THINK CLEARLY AND MAKE BAD DECISIONS, THAT'S WHERE THEY END UP GOING DOWN A TRAIL THAT ISN'T THE RIGHT ONE AND GET LOST, AND THAT'S WHEN WE SEE THEM IN THE EMERGENCY DEPARTMENT, WHICH IS WHERE I WORK AND WHERE I GENERALLY SEE PEOPLE.

TED: CAN YOU GO TO -- CAN YOU HIT HEAT STROKE AND BYPASS HEAT EXHAUSTION AND HEAT STRESS?

>> NO, IT CAN HAPPEN -- PARTICULARLY FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE EXERCISING.

THERE'S TWO OR THREE DIFFERENT CATEGORIES OF HEAT PROBLEM.

ONE IS AN EXERCISE INDUCED.

IF YOU ARE A FOOTBALL PLAYER, OR IF YOU'RE RUNNING IN A RACE, YOU CAN VERY QUICKLY HAVE YOUR TEMPERATURE GO UP BECAUSE YOU'RE CREATING HEAT THROUGH THE EXERCISE, PLUS YOU'RE HAVING THE HEAT FROM THE TEMPERATURE AROUND YOU, AND THAT CAN HAPPEN IN A MATTER OF MINUTES DURING RACES.

AND SO PEOPLE CAN ACTUALLY GET VERY SICK AND COLLAPSE RIGHT AFTER A MARATHON OR SOMETHING ELSE LIKE THAT.

TED: YEAH, AND OBVIOUSLY, IF YOU'RE IN THE SUN, EVERYTHING EXACERBATED.

>> RIGHT, THE TEMPERATURE CAN BE VERY DIFFERENT, MUCH HOTTER IN THE SUN COMPARED TO WHAT IS DIFFERENT.

IT CAN BE 10 OR 20 DEGREES WARMER.

TED: WE KNOW WE NEED TO STAY HYDRATED HERE, WHEN YOU SAY STAY HYDRATED, DO YOU NEED TO BE CONSISTENT OVER TIME, IF YOU ARE FEELING THE STUFF, CAN YOU TAKE A HUGE COUPLE OF BIG GULPS AND THINGS ARE BETTER.

WHAT'S BEST?

>> IT'S MUCH BETTER IF YOU GRADUALLY TAKE SIPS AND CONTINUE TO HYDRATE YOURSELF, BECAUSE IF YOU SUDDENLY JUST TRY TO REFILL THE TANK, SO TO SPEAK, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO ABSORB IT THE WAY YOU NEED TO BECAUSE AT THE SAME TIME, YOU'RE SWEATING CONSTANTLY, YOU ARE BECOMING DEHYDRATED, AND IF YOU ARE COMPLETELY DEHYDRATED, YOUR BLOOD PRESSURE WILL DROP, AND TRYING TO JUST FIX THAT WITH A FEW BIG GULPS DOESN'T WORK.

TED: WHAT ABOUT WEARING LIGHT CLOTHING, LIGHT-COLORED CLOTHING, ESPECIALLY IF YOU ARE IN THE SUN, SHOULD YOU WEAR LONG CLOTHING?

>> NO, LONG SLEEVES ARE NOT GOOD.

SHORT SLEEVES AND SHORTS AND SUN BLOCK, OF COURSE.

THOSE ARE THE THINGS YOU SHOULD BE WEARING, AND A HAT.

THE CLOTHING CAN MAKE YOUR TEMPERATURE HIGHER IN THE BODY.

TED: EVEN IF IT'S LIGHT AND EVEN IF IT'S LOOSE FITTING AND DESIGNED FOR HOT TEMPERATURES.

>> THERE ARE SOME THAT WORK BETTER THAN OTHERS.

IF YOU HAVE THE RIGHT DESIGN, AND IT'S LIGHT, IT CAN WORK WELL, AND LIGHTER CLOTHING DOES REFLECT THE SUN OFF, SO IT'S BETTER.

THE DARKER CLOTHING ABSORBS MORE HEAT.

TED: I KNOW A PERSON WHO LIKES TO WEAR A COOL WRAP.

>> WITH WATER ON THEM?

TED: THEY'RE VERY COOL.

IS THAT A GOOD THING?

>> COOL WATER IS WHAT WE USE IN THE EMERGENCY DEPARTMENT.

SO IF YOU HAVE COOL WATER AND THAT'S HELPING TO COOL YOUR BODY, THAT'S WHAT WE DO.

THAT'S WHAT OUR EMS FOLKS USE THAT WHEN PEOPLE ARE PICKED UP ON THE ROADWAY.

>> IT SEEMS TO WORK.

ASKING FOR A FRIEND HERE.

IT SEEMS TO WORK.

>> IT DOES.

THE FASTER WE COOL PEOPLE, THE BETTER THE OUTCOME IS.

TED: LAST QUESTION HERE.

WE TALKED ABOUT WATER, BUT SUGARY DRINKS, CAFFEINE, DO THEY ONLY HURT?

CAN THEY HELP AT ALL?

>> SO CAFFEINE PROBABLY NOT SO GOOD, IT RAISES YOUR BLOOD PRESSURE.

IT ACTUALLY MAKES YOU SWEAT, AND YOU CAN LOSE FLUIDS THAT WAY.

SUGARY, SALTY, IF THERE'S SALT IN IT, SALT IS SOMETHING WE DO NEED, WHEN WE SWEAT, WE LOSE SOME SALT, SO THERE ARE FLUIDS THAT ARE ELECTROLYTE-TYPE FLUIDS THAT ARE BETTER THAN JUST PURE WATER.

TED: YEAH, ALL RIGHT.

I GET THE IDEA, STAY INSIDE IF YOU CAN.

>> WELL, STAY INSIDE, AND IF YOU GO OUTSIDE, JUST, LIKE WE DO IN THE SUMMER, SHORT AMOUNT TIME AND GO BACK INTO THE AIR CONDITIONED ROOM IF YOU CAN.

TED: DR.

DAVID SKLAR, ASU'S JOHN SHUFELDT SCHOOL OF MEDICINE AND MEDICAL ENGINEERING, GOOD TO HAVE YOU HERE.

>> GOOD TO BE HERE, THANK YOU.

.

TED: A NEW STUDY OUT OF ASU LOOKS AT WHY PEOPLE CHOOSE TO FOLLOW OTHERS?

THE RESEARCH IS CHANGING THE WAY SCIENTISTS VIEW LEADERSHIP IN THAT IT SHOWS A POWER THROUGH DEMONSTRATIONS OF SKILL AND KNOWLEDGE HAVE BEEN PART OF HUMAN SOCIETIES EVOLUTIONARY PAST.

DR.

THOMAS MORGAN IS AN EVOLUTIONARY ANTHROPOLOGIST.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US HERE.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HIERARCHY AND LEADERSHIP.

BEFORE WE GET TOO FAR AFIELD, GIVE ME DEFINITIONS.

>> SO YEAH, IF YOU LOOK AT ALMOST ANY SPECIES, THERE ARE SOME INDIVIDUALS THAT HAVE MORE INFLUENCE, HIGHER STATUS, MORE ACCESS TO RESOURCES.

SO THESE ARE VERY DIFFERENT TO THE SORTS OF HIERARCHY WE SEE IN OUR SOCIETY TODAY WHERE WE HAVE KINGS, PRESIDENTS, THESE INFORMAL INSTITUTIONS OF LEADERSHIP, BUT ACROSS SPECIES, WE SEE THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN INDIVIDUALS AND THESE ARE HIERARCHIES IN A MORE GENERAL SENSE.

TED: THE STUDY WITH HUMAN ANTHROPOLOGY HAS BEEN ONCE WE BECAME HUNTER GATHERERS, ONCE WE STOPPED BEATING EACH OTHER OVER THE HEAD WITH CLUBS, WE FIGURED THINGS OUT.

RESEARCH IS SHOWING SOMETHING DIFFERENT, HUH?

>> FOR HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF YEARS, OUR ANCESTORS WERE HUNTER GATHERERS.

HOW THEY GOT FOOD, HOW THEY SURVIVED, BASICALLY, AND FOR A LONG TIME ANTHROPOLOGISTS AND ARCHAEOLOGISTS FOUND VERY LIMITED EVIDENCE OF HIERARCHIES AMONGST HUNTER GATHERER GROUPS, THE CONTEMPORARY HUNTER GATHERER GROUPS THAT EXIST TODAY.

THAT GETS DIFFERENT WHEN WE LOOK AT AGRICULTURAL SOCIETIES IN THE RECORD AND CONTEMPORARY ONCE.

THERE WAS AN IDEA THAT IN THE DEEP HUMAN HISTORY, WE DIDN'T HAVE HIERARCHIES AT ALL, AND THAT MAYBE HUMANS WERE A VERY EGALITARIAN SPECIES WHICH WOULD MAKE US DIFFERENT TO CONTEMPORARY SOCIETIES BUT VERY DIFFERENT TO OTHER ANIMALS AS WELL.

TED: SO THE INEQUALITIES, THE IDEA THAT INEQUALITIES MAYBE CAME FROM FARMING OR COMPLEX SOCIETIES OR THESE SORTS OF THINGS.

YOU ARE SAYING NOT SO FAST, HUH?

>> EXACTLY.

IT'S DEFINITELY TRUE THAT SHIFTING TO AGRICULTURE GIVES YOU DIFFERENT KINDS OF WEALTH BUT CAN ACCUMULATE IN NEW AND STARK WAYS.

SOMEONE'S GOT TO CONTROL THE GRAIN, GETS PILED UP IN A GRAINRY, THAT DOESN'T HAVE POWER.

NOW IT LOOKS LIKE THERE'S LOTS OF EVIDENCE AMONG HUNTER GATHERERS, THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO HAVE INFLUENCE, POWER, WHO GETS THEIR WAY, WHO ENJOYS BETTER HEALTH.

THOSE SORTS OF DIFFERENCES AND OUR WORK IS SUGGESTING THOSE DIFFERENCES TOO HAVE A DEEP HISTORY IN OUR SPECIES.

TED: WHEN WAS THE LEVERAGE, DO YOU THINK?

WHEN DID THAT START HAPPENING?

.

>> THE ARGUMENT FOR THIS IS THAT THE REASON HUMANS HAVE THESE HIERARCHIES IS UNLIKE OTHER SPECIES, WE LIVE IN A VERY COOPERATIVE AND COLLECTED WAY WHERE OUR LIVES ARE DOMINATED BY BEHAVIORS AND TECHNOLOGIES AND PROBLEMS THAT WE CAN'T SOLVE ON OUR OWN.

IN THIS CASE, IT REALLY PAYS TO KNOW WHO KNOWS WHAT?

WHO'S GOOD AT HUNTING?

WHO KNOWS THE BEST ROUTES AROUND YOUR TERRITORY?

THAT SORT OF STUFF.

IN THIS WORLD, KNOWLEDGE IS A RESOURCE THAT PEOPLE SEEK OUT AND PEOPLE WITH IT CAN LEVERAGE.

TED: AND THAT'S AS OPPOSED TO CHIMPANZEES, OTHER PRIMATES?

IT'S BASICALLY MIGHT MAKES RIGHT, CORRECT?

>> BY AND LARGE.

IN THOSE SPECIES, THERE IS SOME COOPERATION BUT TYPICALLY SMALL SCALE AND IMMEDIATELY BENEFICIAL TO ALL PARTIES INVOLVED, AND THEIR LIVES ARE DOMINATED BY WONDERFUL AND COMPLEX BEHAVIORS BUT BEHAVIORS THAT A CHIMPANZEE IS FIGURE OUT WITH WATCHING WHAT OTHERS ARE DOING, WHEREAS I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOU, BUT I FEEL ALL THE TECHNOLOGY AROUND ME, THERE IS NO HOPE I WOULD HAVE TO FIGURE IT OUT ON MY OWN.

I WOULD HAVE TO BE TAUGHT BY SOMEONE ELSE, SCHOOLS, UNIVERSITIES.

ALL THAT.

TED: HOW IS ALL THIS TESTED?

WHAT RESEARCH WAS DONE TO SUGGEST THAT OUR ANCESTORS WERE MORE EGALITARIAN AND DID WORK TO FIND OUT WHO WAS MORE SKILLFUL AND WHO WAS MORE KNOWLEDGEABLE?

>> YEAH, SO LIKE ANYTHING, THERE'S LOTS OF DIFFERENT EVIDENCE THAT YOU CAN BRING.

SOME PEOPLE GO INTO THE FIELD AND STUDY CONTEMPORARY SOCIETIES.

OTHERS WORK ON ARCHEOLOGICAL DIGS.

I DO A MIX OF BEHAVIORAL EXPERIMENTS WITH VOLUNTEERS IN TEMPE OR ONLINE, AND FROM EVOLUTIONARY BIOLOGY I USE COMPUTER SIMULATIONS OF EVOLUTIONARY PROCESSES.

TED: THERE WAS A TEST WITH A BUNCH OF DOTS INVOLVED?

>> UH-HUH.

TED: WHAT'S THAT INVOLVE?

>> BRING PEOPLE INTO THE LAB TO DO AN EXPERIMENT, WE NEED TO GIVE THEM A TASK TO SOLVE.

IT CAN'T BE TOO COMPLICATED, IF I ASK TO BUILD A ROCKET, THEY WOULD BE THERE FOR YEARS.

WE GIVE A BASIC TASK, LOOK AT DOTS, HOW MANY DOTS OR COLORS ARE THERE.

IT'S HARD, SO THEY NEED TO WORK TOGETHER TO FIGURE IT OUT, BUT EASY ENOUGH GROUPS OF PARTICIPANTS CAN COMPLETE IT IN A REASONABLE TIME.

TED: YEAH, I WANT TO MAKE SURE I'M NOT CONFUSING THIS.

EGALITARIAN MORE THAN ORIGINALLY THOUGHT YET ALSO HIERARCHICAL MORE THAN ORIGINALLY THOUGHT?

>> YES, THE WORK I'VE DONE IS PUSHING US BACK TO THE VIEW OF HUMANS, EVEN WHEN WE LACK FORMAL INSTITUTIONS, KINGS STUFF LIKE THAT, WITH MORE HIERARCHICAL THAN YOU MIGHT SUPPOSE.

WE'RE NOT AS EGALITARIAN AS PEOPLE THOUGHT BEFORE.

TED: INTERESTING.

>> INSTEAD IT'S LIKE A MARKETPLACE OF SKILLS AND KNOWLEDGE AND PEOPLE USE THEIR ABILITIES AND TRANSLATE THOSE INTO STATUS AND INFLUENCE.

TED: BUT WAS THOUGHT WAS BRUTE STRENGTH MIGHT HAVE LED TO THE HIERARCHY, YOU'RE SAYING NO, IT'S MORE KNOWLEDGE AND SKILL?

>> CORRECT, IF YOU CERTAINLY COMPARE HUMANS TO OTHER SPECIES, MOST OF OUR LEADERS WE DON'T LIVE IN FEAR OF THEM, BUT IN OTHER ANIMAL GROUPS, THE DOMINANTS ARE SCARY.

INDIVIDUALS OR THE SUBORDINANTS WHO REPEATEDLY SHOW DEFERENCE AND GROVEL IN FRONT OF THEM AND AVOID THEM AS MUCH AS THEY CAN.

IN HUMAN GROUPS WE ADMIRE THEM, WANT TO SPEND TIME WITH THEM.

TED: WOW, FASCINATING STUFF.

DR.

THOMAS MORGAN, ASU EVOLUTIONARY ANTHROPOLOGIST, TALKING ABOUT THE DIM AND DISTANT PAST.

THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

TED: AND THAT'S IT FOR NOW.

I'M TED SIMONS.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

YOU HAVE A GREAT EVENING.