>> COMING UP, FIVE YEARS AFTER THE SEPTEMBER 11 ATTACKS, ARE WE ANY SAFER?

I TALK WITH AN ANTI-TERRORISM EXPERT NEXT ON "DIALOGUE."

>> HELLO AND WELCOME TO DIALOGUE.

I'M MARCIA FRANKLIN.

WELCOME, AS WELL TO, THOSE LISTENING ON NPR91, IT HAS BEEN FIVE YEAR SINCE THE ATTACKS ON THE WORLD TRADE CENTER, THE PENTAGON AND FLIGHT 93.

SINCE THEN, HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS HAVE BEEN SPENT ON A WAR AND INCREASED HOMELAND SECURITY IN AN EFFORT TO STEM TERRORISM.

INDEED, THERE HASN'T BEEN AN ATTACK ON AMERICAN SOIL SINCE SEPTEMBER 11, 2001.

ARE WE SAFER?

THAT'S A QUESTION MY GUEST TONIGHT DEALS WITH EVERY DAY.

JULIETTE KAYYEM IS A COUNTER TERRORISM EXPERT WHO TEACHES AT HARVARD UNIVERSITY.

SHE'S THE FORMER DIRECTOR OF THE TERRORISM AND HOMELAND SECURITY RESEARCH PROGRAM AT HARVARD AND WAS A MEMBER OF THE NATIONAL COMMISSION ON TERRORISM BEFORE SEPTEMBER 11.

A REPORT SHE CO-AUTHORED ON COUNTER TERRORISM STRATEGIES, SUCH AS INTERROGATION, RECEIVED ATTENTION FROM THE NATIONAL PRESS AND CONGRESS.

I SPOKE WITH MISS KAYYEM AT THIS YEAR'S SUN VALLEY WRITERS' CONFERENCE.

IT HAS BROUGHT TOGETHER SOME OF THE BEST WRITERS IN THE COUNTRY.

THERE WAS SUCH INTEREST IN THE TOPIC, THAT SHE WAS ASKED TO GIVE SEVERAL ADDITIONAL TALKS.

FIRST OF ALL, WELCOME TO IDAHO.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

IT'S BEEN A GREAT TRIP.

>> YOUR LECTURES WERE OVERSUBSCRIBED.

MORE PEOPLE WANTED TO GET IN THAT COULD BE ACCOMMODATED, SO THEY HAD TO ADD MORE FORUMS FOR YOU.

>> RIGHT.

>> SO WHAT DO YOU ATTRIBUTE THAT INTEREST?

>> I THINK IT'S JUST PEOPLE FEEL VERY UNEASY RIGHT NOW ABOUT SECURITY, ABOUT WHERE THE NATION IS HEADING, ABOUT THE THREAT OF TERRORISM, YOU KNOW, DISRUPTED CELLS IN NEW ENGLAND OR ABOUT IRAQ BECAUSE THERE DOESN'T SEEM TO BE GREAT SOLUTION FOR WHAT'S GOING ON IN IRAQ, AND CERTAINLY, WHAT HAPPENED BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HEZBOLLAH THIS SUMMER, JUST YOU TALK TO PEOPLE FROM IDAHO OR WHEREVER, JUST THIS GENERAL SENSE THAT -- OF UNEASE, AND THAT THERE'S A LOT OF INFORMATION THAT THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO PROCESS IT, AND TO THE EXTENT THAT I COULD HELP THEM PROCESS SORT OF THE DIFFERENT ISSUES OUT THERE MADE PEOPLE WANT TO HEAR, OR THEY MAY JUST BE PESSIMISTS AND NOT WANT TO HEAR AMAZING PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT POETRY OR ROMANCE LITERATURE AND COME AND LISTEN TO TERRORISM >> WHEN YOU START YOUR TALKS, YOU OFTEN ASK PEOPLE A QUESTION.

>> YES.

>> TELL PEOPLE WHAT THAT IS AND WHAT THE RESPONSE IS.

>> SO, I MEAN, IT'S INTERESTING.

THE QUESTIONS THAT WAS THE TOPIC OF MY TALK WAS, WHY HAVEN'T WE BEEN ATTACKED?

A LOT OF PEOPLE ASK ME THAT.

HOW COULD WE GO FIVE YEARS AND NOT BE ATTACKED?

SUICIDE BOMBERS IN IDAHO, WHY ISN'T THAT HAPPENING?

I THINK IT'S THE WRONG QUESTION TO ASK.

THE QUESTION I ASK IS DO YOU FEEL SAFER THAN YOU DID SAY IN 2 ON YOUR SIDE?

I WOULD HAVE TO SAY IN IDAHO, YOU KNOW, WHERE IT'S NOT LIKE YOU ARE LIVING IN DOWNTOWN MANHATTAN, THE ANSWER IS GENERALLY 95% TO 98% NO, AND THAT SEEMS TO BE, TO BE REFLECTING A SENSE THAT EVEN THOUGH WE HAVEN'T BEEN ATTACKED, AND THAT'S GREAT NEWS, THERE'S A SENSE THAT MAYBE WHEN IT COMES TO OUR OWN SECURITY, WE MIGHT BE HEADING IN THE WRONG DIRECTION IN TERMS OF PROTECTING OURSELVES AND PROTECTING OUR AMERICA'S INTEREST IN THE WORLD.

>> EVEN THOUGH, AS YOU SAID, SO MANY PEOPLE TELL YOU THEY DON'T FEEL SAFE, WHEN YOU GO AHEAD AND YOU ASK THEM HAT THEY HAVE DONE TO PREPARE -- >> AND THAT'S THE ONE THAT ALWAYS GETS ME MAD, ESPECIALLY IN PLACES LIKE -- AT THE SUN VALLEY WRITERS' CONFERENCE WHERE YOU, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE VERY SMART PEOPLE WHO ARE INTERESTED IN THINGS, AND CLEARLY READ THE NEWSPAPER.

SUCH AN EDUCATED GROUP OF PEOPLE.

THEN YOU ASK THEM, YOU KNOW, DO YOU HAVE A PLAN FOR YOU AND YOUR DEPENDENTS AND YOUR ELDERLY PARENTS AND YOUR DOG AND YOUR SPOUSE AND EVERYONE ELSE, AND ONLY MY MOTHER, WHO CAME TO THE CONFERENCE, RAISED HER HAND FOR THAT ONE, WHICH DIDN'T COUNT IN MY MIND.

SO, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I SORT OF URGE PEOPLE IS WE CAN'T EXPECT OUR GOVERNMENT TO MAKE US PERFECTLY SAFE.

I THINK THAT'S AN IMMATURE WAY OF THINKING ABOUT THE THREATS OUT THERE.

WE ARE NEVER GOING TO BE PERFECTLY SECURE, BUT WE ALSO CAN'T DEPEND ON OUR GOVERNMENT TO BE THERE WHEN WE WANT THEM TO BE.

WE KNOW THAT CERTAINLY THAT FROM HURRICANE KATRINA, SO PEOPLE LIKE US WHO READ THE NEWSPAPERS AND HAVE THE MEANS TO PROTECT OURSELVES, DON'T HAVE THE PLANS IN PLACE WHETHER IT'S WATER, FOOD, AN EMERGENCY PLAN.

ARE YOUR KIDS BIRTH CERTIFICATES MAILED OUT OF STATE?

DO YOU HAVE CASH IN THE HOUSE?

THE LIST I WENT THROUGH.

IT MAKES ME EVEN FRUSTRATED BECAUSE IT REALLY IS DEPEND ON US TO SORT OF PROTECT OURSELVES IN MANY RESPECTS.

>> AND YOU ALSO FEEL THAT, THAT IT IS PROBABLY IMMATURE ISN'T THE RIGHT WORD, BUT NAIVE, MAYBE, TO THINK THAT WE WON'T BE ATTACKED.

>> I THINK MOST PEOPLE -- I'M NOT FATALISTIC ABOUT THIS, BUT I CERTAINLY KNOW WHAT'S OUT THERE.

I THINK IT'S LIKELY WE WILL BE ATTACKED AGAIN, AND, AND SO SO KNOWING THERE'S THAT THREAT OUT THERE AND KNOWING THAT THE GOVERNMENT CAN'T BE IN ALL PLACES AT ALL TIMES AND KNOWING THAT WE, CERTAINLY, MUST SORT OF TAKE CONTROL OF OUR OWN DESTINY IN MANY WAYS.

I THINK EVERYONE SORT OF SHOULD HAVE THOSE PLANS IN PLACE, AND ANOTHER WAY TO THINK ABOUT IT IS PEOPLE SAY HOW CAN I HELP, YOU KNOW.

WE HAVEN'T BEEN ASKED TO SACRIFICE, FOR THOSE OF US WHO AREN'T IN THE ARMED SERVICES OR DON'T HAVE FAMILY IN THE ARMED SERVICES, YOU KNOW, IN MANY WAYS, WE DON'T FEEL LIKE IT'S A WAR.

WE HAVEN'T BEEN ASKED A SACRIFICE.

HERE'S ONE WAY THAT A PERSON LIKE ME OR YOU OR WHOEVER ELSE CAN ACTUALLY HELP IN THIS EFFORT, RIG, BECAUSE WE CAN SORT OF TAKE OWNERSHIP OF OUR OWN SAFETY.

>> YOU, ACTUALLY, BELIEVE WE SHOULD PROBABLY GO BACK TO THE MODEL OF THE CIVIL DEFENSE SYSTEM THAT WE HAD IN THE LATE 1940'S, 1950'S.

I EVEN REMEMBER SIRENS BEING CHECKED AND FALLOUT SHELTERS IN MY SCHOOL.

>> I THINK THAT'S RIGHT.

THERE'S A LOT OF PLANNING GOING ON ON THE LOCAL, STATE, AND FEDERAL PLANNING IN TERMS OF HOMELAND SECURITY EFFORTS.

THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY GETS A LOT OF CRITICISM, AND THERE ARE SOME THINGS THAT SHOULD BE CRITICIZED FOR, BUT IT HAS, ACTUALLY, DONE A LOT IN TERMS OF INTEGRATING EMERGENCY PLANNING.

I THINK WE HAVEN'T BEEN SO GOOD IN TERMS INCORPORATING CIVILIAN AND, BASICALLY, THE PUBLIC IN THOSE PLANS WHETHER IT'S THROUGH PRACTICES AND TESTING, OR IT'S MAKING SURE THAT WE HAVE A VOLUNTEER CORPS READY TO, YOU KNOW, DO SHOTS IN THE EVENT OF SAY BIOLOGICAL TERRORISM.

WE ARE ALL THINKING ABOUT THE AVIAN FLU NOW, IF THAT HITS THIS WINTER.

I THINK WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS HAVE THOSE PLANS IN PLACE BECAUSE PEOPLE WANT TO HELP.

>> WHY HAVEN'T WE BEEN ATTACKED IN THE TRADITIONAL SENSE?

WE, IN THE LARGER SENSE, HAVE.

>> RIGHT.

>> WE HAVE HAD PROBLEMS IN MADRID.

IN LONDON, BALI, JORDAN.

>> YES.

>> SO THE QUESTION IS, WHO IS WE.

IF YOU THINK OF THE U.S.

ALLIES AND INTERESTS, IT'S NOT A VERY GOOD PICTURE.

WHEN YOU THINK OF, IN PARTICULAR, SPAIN AND LONDON WHERE THEY HAD HOME-GROWN ATTACKS, MEN WHO WERE FROM THOSE COUNTRIES GROWING UP IN THOSE COUNTRIES WHO WERE ABLE TO PLAN ATTACKS OF REALLY CONSEQUENTIAL, YOU KNOW, OF HIGH CONSEQUENCE, AND WELL CONSTRUCTED ATTACKS.

THOSE, I THINK -- SO IN SOME WAYS, WE HAVE BEEN ATTACKED.

THOSE ARE CLEARLY OUR ALLIES IN THIS EFFORT IN THE WAR ON TERRORISM AND ALSO IN IRAQ.

BUT, I MEAN, IF I WERE TO ANSWER WHY HAVEN'T WE HAD ANOTHER SEPTEMBER 11, I THINK THERE'S A COUPLE OF EXPLANATIONS, AND THIS IS WHAT PEOPLE LIKE ME DEBATE ALL THE TIME.

I THINK CLEARLY THE WAR IN AFGHANISTAN DID A LOT TO DISRUPT THE INFRASTRUCTURE OF AL-QAEDA AND BIN LADEN, ALTHOUGH HE'S STILL ALIVE.

I THINK FOR BOTH, I THINK, SECONDLY, YOU KNOW, BASED BOTH ON OUR HISTORY AND WHO WE ARE AS A NATION, THIS IS THE GOOD NEWS PART OF IT, WE SEEM NOT TO HAVE A RADICAL ISLAMIC OR ARAB POPULATION.

THE IMMIGRANTS WHO COME HERE TEND TO SIMULATE QUITE WELL AND HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO SIMULATE QUITE WELL IN WAYS THAT CLEARLY IS NOT HAPPENING, FOR EXAMPLE, IN GERMANY, BRITAIN, OR FRANCE, WHEN WE SAW THAT IN FRANCE LAST SUMMER, AS WELL.

I THINK THERE IS SOMETHING TO WHAT I CALL THE ZERO TOLERANCE POLICY OF JOHN ASHCROFT.

I DON'T KNOW HOW TO MEASURE IT, BUT I THINK THE DISRUPTION OF CERTAIN CELLS HAS MAYBE MADE PEOPLE IN CERTAIN COMMUNITIES NERVOUS.

I THINK THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT TO THAT HAS BEEN OUR IMMIGRATION CONTROLS.

I THINK IT IS, AND WHAT PEOPLE DON'T TALK ABOUT RIGHT, IS THAT IT'S PROBABLY ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE IF YOU ARE BETWEEN THE AGES OF 18 AND 40 FROM CERTAIN COUNTRIES TO GET INTO THIS COUNTRY WITHOUT A LOT OF SURVEILLANCE, AND I THINK WE KNOW THAT TO BE TRUE.

A COUPLE WEEKS AGO, A COUPLE OF EGYPTIAN GUYS DISAPPEARED ON THEIR WAY TO MONTANA.

IT WASN'T HERE, ON THEIR WAY TO MONTANA, AND EVERYONE WAS, YOU KNOW, SCREAMING AND NERVOUS.

I THOUGHT WELL, THE SYSTEM WORKED BECAUSE 11 GUYS GO MISSING, AND WE KNOW WITHIN 24 HOURS.

I THINK THE LAST REASON, AND THIS IS SORT OF SUGGESTS, YOU KNOW, WE MIGHT WANT TO WONDER WHERE ALL THE HOMELAND SECURITY MONEY WENT, BUT I THINK THAT WE HAVE DONE SOME THINGS TO HELP PROTECT OUR CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE, AND MAYBE WE'VE DONE TOO MUCH IN SOME FIELDS.

LIKE I THINK A LOT OF THE AIRLINE SECURITY NOW IS OVERKILL.

>> THAT'S WHAT I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU NEXT.

AS WE SPEAK, IT'S NOT THAT LONG AFTER THE NO LIQUID POLICY.

>> RIGHT.

>> NO GEL POLICY.

BY THE TIME THIS AIRS, MAYBE THERE COULD BE ANOTHER AIRPORT POLICY, BUT YOU DON'T REALLY FEEL THAT THAT IS HELPING -- >> I THINK THAT'S RIGHT.

NO TERRORIST ATTACK HAS EVER BEEN STOPPED AT AN AIRPORT.

IN THE 50 YEARS, RIGHT, I MEAN, WHEN HIJACKS WERE HAPPENING, WHATEVER.

THEY GET STOPPED THROUGH A VARIETY OF OTHER MEANS, WHETHER IT'S SURVEILLANCE BEFOREHAND, AND THAT THE ONLY TERRORIST ATTACK THAT WE KNOW OF, AT LEAST PUBLICLY, IS RICHARD REID, AND THAT WAS THE FLIGHT ATTENDANTS AND PASSENGERS STOPPING HIM SO, I'M NOT SURE THAT ALL OF THESE VERY INTRUSIVE, TIME-INTENSIVE COSTLY MEASURES WILL GO VERY FAR IN TERMS OF STOPPING SOMEONE, AND I THINK WHAT PEOPLE HAVE TO REMEMBER IS THAT IT'S A WOR OF FINITE RESOURCES.

IT'S NOT A QUESTION ABOUT WHETHER THIS ONE METHOD WOULD WORK.

IT'S REALLY A QUESTION OF HOW DO WE PRIORITIZE THE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF THINGS THAT WE COULD DO TO PROTECT OURSELVES AND WHAT WOULD BE MAYBE A BETTER USE OF MONEY.

>> DO YOU FEEL THAT THE WHOLE PHRASE, "WAR ON TERROR" IS REALLY MISPLACED?

>> IT IS.

I THINK ESPECIALLY FIVE YEARS LATER.

I MEAN, I BELIEVE NOW FIVE YEARS, WAR -- LET ME GO BACK.

WAR, ACTUALLY, GIVES THE AMERICAN PUBLIC THE FALSE SENSE THAT THIS IS SOMETHING THAT IS A MILITARY EFFORT, AND THAT WILL BE SOLVED BY MILITARY MEANS, AND IT WON'T.

WE KNOW THAT NOW.

WE KNOW THAT AFGHANISTAN WAS GOOD IN THE SENSE OF GETTING RID OF THE TALIBAN.

I DON'T KNOW SINGLE PERSON IN, WHO QUESTIONS THAT WAR.

BUT BASICALLY BE IT HAS RUN ITS COURSE.

THE PROBLEM WITH THIS WAR MENTALITY IS THAT IT ACTUALLY KEEPS US FROM FOCUSING ON OTHER EFFORTS, I BELIEVE, THAT ARE ACTUALLY GOING TO BE THE REAL FRONTS IN THE EFFORT AGAINST TERRORISM.

>> OR HEARTS AND MINDS' EFFORT?

>> I THINK IT'S FALLING DOWN TO TWO.

HEARTS AND MINDS.

I BELIEVE THIS NOW -- I COME FROM LAW ENFORCEMENT, SO THE FACT THAT I'M TALKING LIKE THIS SUGGESTS THE CHANGES IN THE LAST FIVE YEARS, BUT TO THINK AHEAD ABOUT WHAT'S THE LONG-TERM STRATEGY FOR COUNTERING THE TERRORIST THREAT?

IT CANNOT BE THAT WE ARE GOING TO KILL EVERYONE, RIGHT.

WE JUST CAN'T DO IT.

IT CANNOT BE THAT WE ARE GOING TO INVADE EVERY POTENTIAL ISLAMIC STATE BECAUSE WE LEARNED THAT LESSON IN IRAQ, AND WE'RE CERTAINLY NOT ABOUT TO LEARN IT IN IRAN, RIGHT, IT'S FOUR TIMES THE SIZE OF IRAQ, SO THAT CAN'T BE THAT MILITARY IS THE RIGHT OPTION.

SO WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THE LONG-TERM STRATEGY, YOU WILL HAVE TO ENGAGE THE WORLD IN WAYS THAT, I THINK, THIS ADMINISTRATION HAS BEEN UNWILLING TO.

I THINK THE SECOND FRONT IS CLEARLY INTELLIGENCE.

IT IS GOING TO BE INTELLIGENCE, ALL SORTS OF INTLLIGENCE, HUMAN INTELLIGENCE, SIGNAL INTELLIGENCE.

IT'S GOING TO BE -- BECAUSE THESE ARE NONSTATE ACTORS.

THESE ARE GROUPS OF MEN WHO ARE FORMING TO ATTACK U.S.

CIVILIANS, AND SO I THINK, I THINK THE WAR ANALOGY OUGHT TO END, BUT I HAVE TO ADMIT, IT HAS POLITICAL BENEFITS.

IT GETS PEOPLE GEARED UP.

>> PICKING UP ON WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT INTELLIGENCE AND NEEDING GOOD INTELLIGENCE.

IN ORDER TO GET GOOD INTELLIGENCE, WE NEED PEOPLE WHO SPEAK ARABIC.

YOU, YOURSELF, ARE A LEBANESE-AMERICAN.

>> YES.

>> YOU HAVE JOKED, I HAVE SEEN, IN OTHER PAPERS THAT YOU WERE PUT ON VARIOUS TASKFORCES BECAUSE YOU WERE THE, YOU KNOW, THE -- >> I'M CHRISTIAN AND NOT MUSLIM.

>> BUT ALL KIDDING ASIDE, ESPECIALLY WITH WHAT HAPPENED WITH ISRAEL AND LEBANON, AS WE SPEAK, WILL MODERATE ARAB AMERICANS WANT TO GO WORK IN COUNTER INTELLIGENCE AND TERRORISM FOR THIS COUNTRY, OR WILL THEY SEE IT AS SOMEHOW GOING AGAINST THEIR BROTHERS?

>> I THINK YOU -- I THINK IT'S A HARD QUESTION TO ANSWER BECAUSE I THINK THAT THERE'S A TREMENDOUS TENSION IN THAT COMMUNITY ABOUT HOW THEY ARE FEELING TOWARD THE GOVERNMENT.

I THINK IN THE AFTERMATH OF SEPTEMBER 11, REMEMBER THERE WERE 2,000 ARAB-AMERICANS, NOT IMMIGRANTS, AMERICANS DETAINED FOR SOME PERIOD OF TIME.

I THINK THERE WAS A LOT OF HOSTILITY BETWEEN THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, THE F.B.I.

AND THE COMMUNES.

I WILL SAY THAT OVER THE LAST COUPLE YEARS, I THINK THE F.B.I.

HAS LEARNED THAT COMMUNITY INVOLVEMENT IN A LOT OF THEIR COUNTER TERRORISM EFFORTS HELPED, SO IF YOU LOOK AT THE CELLS THAT HAVE BEEN DISRUPTED SO FAR IN AMERICA, IF YOU LOOK AT LACK JUAN, MIAMI, SEATTLE, AND OTHERS, THEY WERE ALL DISRUPTED BECAUSE OF PERSONS FROM THE COMMUNITY CAME FORWARD AND SAID THERE'S THIS GROUP OF PEOPLE, AND WE DON'T KNOW WHO THEY ARE.

THEY ARE DOING SOMETHING FUNKY, AND THAT'S GOOD, SO I THINK THAT THAT'S IMPORTANT.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT WILL CONTINUE?

>> I THINK IT WILL, AND I THINK THAT THERE'S -- I THINK THE INTELLIGENCE OF LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES ARE GHETTING A LOT SMARTER ABOUT TRYING TO HIRE THEM WITH, WITH, UM, MULTIPLE LANGUAGES AND PEOPLE ARE SET IN ARABIC IN NUMBERS THAT THEY NEVER DID BEFORE, WHICH IS FANTASTIC, SO HOPEFULLY WE'LL GET A GENERATION, NOT MINE OR YOUR GENERATION, BUT A GENERATION OF PEOPLE THAT WERE MAYBE 13 OR 14 ON SEPTEMBER 11 WHO ARE GOING INTO COLLEGE, INTERESTED IN THIS PART OF THE WORLD, LEARNING THE LANGUAGES AND WANTING TO BECOME PART OF, I THINK, YOU KNOW, N ENGAGED DIALOGUE WITH A BIG PART OF THE WORLD.

>> YOU ARE MARRIED TO A JEWISH PERSON.

>> YES.

>> SO SOMETIMES YOUR RELATIONSHIP COULD BE A MODEL FOR HOW THINGS -- >> DEPENDS ON WHEN YOU VISIT US.

[LAUGHTER] >> DEPENDS ON, YOU KNOW, BEFORE 9:00 IN THE MORNING, IT'S NOT SO GOOD, BUT YES, IT IS.

BOTH FAMILIES GET ALONG GREAT, AND, AND OUR KIDS, OUR CHILDREN ARE BEING RAISED JEWISH BUT CELEBRATE CHRISTMAS, SO WE HAVE A HODGEPODGE OF CELEBRATIONS IN THE HOUSE.

>> YOU MENTIONED THE THOUSANDS THAT WERE DETAINED, AND THAT LEADS ME TO MY NEXT SET OF QUESTIONS, WHICH COME OUT OF THE REPORT THAT YOU AND YOUR COLLEAGUE ISSUED WITH SOME, SOME POTENTIAL GUIDELINES AND RECOMMENDATIONS FOR THE FUTURE AS WE GO OUT, AND SOME OF THEM HAVE TO DEAL WITH THINGS LIKE DETENTION.

WHETHER GUANTANAMO BAY CLOSES, WHICH EVENTUALLY ONE -- PRESIDENT BUSH SAYS HE WANTS TO.

>> RIGHT.

>> THERE ARE STILL GOING TO BE WHAT HE CALL "GHOST PRISONS," AND YOU FEEL THAT THERE SHOULD BE BETTER GUIDELINES FOR HOW PEOPLE ARE TREATED IN THOSE FACILITIES, INCLUDING HAVING THEIR OWN -- HAVING COUNSEL.

>> RIGHT.

I THINK IN SOME INSTANCES THAT'S RIGHT.

WHAT WE DID IS A GROUP OF LAWYERS BOTH FROM ACROSS THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM GOT TOGETHER TO THINK ABOUT WHAT A LONG-TERM LEGAL STRATEGY IS, AND WE WERE ALL FROM THE NATIONAL SECURITY BACKGROUND, BUT WE ARE LAWYERS.

WE FOCUS ON THE LAW.

WHAT A LONG-TERM LEGAL STRATEGY AUGUST TO BE FOR THE WAR ON TERRORISM.

WE DID THAT FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS.

ONE IS BECAUSE WE ARE A COUNTRY, YOU KNOW, GOVERNED BYLAWS, AND, AND CHECKS AND BALANCES, AND NO PRESIDENT, WHETHER IT'S THIS PRESIDENT OR BILL CLINTON OR A FUTURE DEMOCRAT OR REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT HAS A MONOPOLY ON GOOD, PUBLIC POLICY, ALL RIGHT, AND GOOD JUDGMENT THAT ONE OF THE, ONE OF THE ASPECTS THAT MAKES OUR COUNTRY A DEMOCRACY THAT THERE'S OVERSIGHT.

PART OF IT WAS THAT.

THE OTHER PART, AND THIS BAME CLEAR AS WE DID OUR WORK, WAS A LOT OF US, INCLUDING ME, I MEAN, THERE'S PEOPLE LEFT, TO THE LEFT OF ME THAT DON'T REE WITH THIS, BUT A LOT OF US AGREE WITH THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION, THAT A LOT OF THE LEGAL REGIME SET UP IN THE TIME OF THE COLD WAR AFTER WORLD WAR II PROBABLY IS NOT RELEVANT OR ENTIRELY RELEVANT TO THE WAR -- TO THE EFFORT OR WAR AGAINST TERRORISM, THAT THIS -- THAT THIS GROUP OF INDIVIDUAL MEN ARE FORMING OUTSIDE THE STATE WITH NO STATE SPONSORSHIP AREN'T SIGNATORIES TO THE GENEVA CONVENTION, BUT THIS GROUP DID POSE A DIFFERENT KIND OF THREAT.

WHERE I THINK THIS GROUP OF REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS DIFFER IS FROM, FROM THE ADMINISTRATION.

THERE'S A LOT OF DEBATE WITHIN THE ADMINISTRATION, TO BE FAIR IN ITSELF -- WAS THERE, WHETHER THERE AUGUST TO BE A NEW WORLD STRUCTURE.

WE TRIED TO COME UP WITH EVERYTHING FROM DETENTION TO INTERROGATION, IS A SET OF GUIDELINES THAT SHOULD GOVERN THE PEOPLE OUT IN THE FIELD BECAUSE IN THE END, THEY ARE THE ONES WHO ARE GOING TO DO SOMETHING OR NOT DO SOMETHING BASED ON THE LEGAL REGIME.

NOT THE LAWYERS AT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.

>> VERY BRIEFLY LET'S GO THROUGH A COUPLE OF THEM.

FIRST OF ALL, INTERESTINGLY, YOUR RECOMMENDATION IS THERE SHOULDN'T BE ANY PROFILING IN THIS COUNTRY.

>> RIGHT.

>> BASED ON RACE, RELIGION,ETH NISSITY.

>> CLEARLY THERE IS PROFILING GOING ON.

>> RIGHT.

>> AND MOST PEOPLE FAVOR IT -- >> I THINK FM A SECURITY PERSPECTIVE, NO ONE HAS BEEN IN NATIONAL SECURITY THINKS THAT IT WORKS, THAT THERE'S BETTER -- PROFILING IS SUCH A LOADED WORD, I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT MEANS.

WE ALL-PRO FILE.

IN THE SENSE OF WE KNOW WHAT WE'RE LOOKING FOR.

THERE ARE PROFILES THAT MAY HAVE A DESPERATE IMPACT ON CERTAIN COMMUNITIES BECAUSE WE SHOULD CARE MORE ABOUT PEOPLE WHO TRAVEL WITH PASSPORTS FROM SUNNY COUNTRIES.

WHEN WE SAID NO PROFILING, WE MEANT THE NOTION YOU SOMETIMES HEAR ON TALK RADIO, WHATEVER, THAT EVERY ARAB MAN SHOULD BE PULLED ASIDE.

NOT ONLY IS IT WRONG AS A NATION.

WE'VE BEEN DOWN THAT ROAD BEFORE, BUT IT WON'T WORK, RIGHT.

LET'S BE PRACTICAL ABOUT IT, AND THAT WAS OUR PROVISION.

>> WIRE TAPPING.

>> WIRE TAPPING.

>> I MEAN -- >> OUGHT TO BE DONE, NO QUESTION ABOUT IT.

EVEN PEOPLE LEFT OF THE CENTER SAY IT OUGHT TO BE DONE.

>> BUT WHEN YOU FOUND OUT ABOUT THE EXTENT TO WHICH IT WAS HAPPENING?

>> I THINK THAT CONGRESS HAS SPOKEN ON THIS ISSUE ABOUT FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE, WIRE TAP.

NO ONE SEEMS TO -- NO ONE HAS MADE A STRONG CLAIM ABOUT WHY THAT PROCESS OUGHT TO BE IGNORED JUST SIMPLY BECAUSE WE'RE IN A WAR ON TERRORISM.

>> TORTURE AND INTERROGATION.

>> RIGHT.

>> TORTURE AND INTERROGATION.

>> YOUR REPORT, SOME CRITICIZED IT AS TORTURE LIGHT.

>> RIGHT.

>> BASICALLY YOU HAVE SAID WE'VE BEEN MAKING UP OUR POLICIES AS WE GO ALONG.

ABU GHRAIB IS AN EXAMPLE OF THAT.

YOU BELIEVE THERE SHOULD BE H.C.I.

'S OR HIGHLY COERCIVE INTERROGATION METHODS THAT SHOULD BE APPROVED AND OUT IN THE OPEN.

>> RIGHT, THE PUBLIC SHOULD KNOW, THE PRESIDENT SHOULD SAY, I AUTHORIZE THESE METHODS.

>> EXACTLY.

>> WHAT KINDS OF THINGS WOULD THAT BE OR WHAT WOULD YOU -- >> YOU KNOW, I THINK IT WOULD BE ANYTHING SORT OF THAT GOES OUTSIDE THE ARMY FIELD MANUALS, POSSIBLY WATERBOARDING.

OUR POINT WAS THIS -- THERE OUGHT TO BE A SET OF REGULATIONS THAT GOVERN WHAT KIND OF TEST INTERROGATIONS CAN OCCUR.

>> THAT COULD BE SLEEP DEPRIVATION.

>> THE STUFF YOU THAT AND I PROBABLY DON'T FEEL THAT UNCOMFORTABLE ABOUT.

>> NOISE.

>> EXACTLY.

>> THEN WHERE WE DIFFERED FROM A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THE HUMAN RIGHTS' COMMUNITY IS THERE MAY BE A GROUP OF PEOPLE THAT WE CAPTURE THAT LET'S ASSUME THE TICKING TIME BOMB SCENARIO WHERE YOU WOULD WANT TO USE HIGHLY COERCIVE INTERROGATION TACTICS BECAUSE TIME OR WHO THE PERSON IS DEMANDS THAT WE GET INFORMATION FROM THAT.

IN THOSE RARE INSTANCES, AND THIS IS WHERE I THINK WE HAVE TO BE CLEAR, IT WOULD BE VERY RARE, THE PRESIDENT OUGHT TO AUTHORIZE IT.

WE NEED POLITICAL ACCOUNTABILITY.

YOU CAN'T JUST -- YOU CAN'T JUST SAY TO A BUNCH OF PEOPLE, 18-YEAR-OLD GUYS, GO AND GET INFORMATION AND THINK THAT SYSTEM IS ACTUALLY A VIABLE SYSTEM.

>> MEANING THE SOLDIERS?

>> YEAH.

>> BUT YOUR REPORT DOES NOT LAY OUT WHICH SPECIFIC METHODS -- >> FOR US, FOR THE LAWYERS, BUT WHAT WE WOULD DEMAND AND WHAT LATER ON JOHN MCCAIN DEMANDED IN HIS TORTURE -- HIS TORTURE -- ANTI-TORTURE BILL, WAS THAT THE ARMY FIELD MANUAL OUGHT TO ACTUALLY LIST WHAT IS STANDARD AND INTERROGATION TACTICS SHOULD APPLY.

>> AND INTERESTINGLY IN BRITAIN WHERE THERE'S BEEN A LONGER HISTORY OF DEALING WITH TERRORISM, BRITAIN HAS A BIT MORE OPEN MODEL WHERE THE PUBLIC CAN ACTUALLY PARTICIPATE IN DISCUSSIONS ABOUT DETENTION METHODS.

>> THE BRITISH HAVE -- I THINK YOU ARE RIGHT IN TERMS OF THE HISTORY.

THEY HAVE A MUCH MORE CONVERSATIONAL ASPECT ABOUT SOME OF THESE THINGS THAT I THINK THAT AMERICANS FEEL QUITE UNCOMFORTABLE ABOUT.

THEY HAVE PUBLIC HEARINGS.

THEY HAVE OVERSIGHT REVIEW BODIES.

THEY HAVE A CHANCELLOR, WHO IS PICTURE IN CHARGE OF TAKING ALL THE INFORMATION AND CREATING WHAT, WHAT -- SORT OF THE EQUIVALENT OF OUR INSPECTOR GENERAL FOR THE PUBLIC, SAYING HERE'S WHAT WE HAVE DETERMINED AND HERE ARE THE DIFFERENT IDEAS COMING FROM DIFFERENT GROUPS.

AND YOU GET A SENSE WHEN YOU ARE IN BRITAIN THAT THERE'S A GREATER DIALOGUE ABOUT WHAT KIND OF AUTHORITIES THE GOVERNMENT OUGHT TO HAVE.

>> EXTRAORDINARY RENDIONS.

>> YES.

>> WE HEAR ABOUT THEM.

THOSE ARE PEOPLE BEING TAKEN ON PLANES OR OTHER MEANS OF TRANSPORT TO OTHER COUNTRIES, AND POSSIBLY, TORTURED.

>> RIGHT.

>> YOUR REPORT SAYS FLAT OUT -- >> FLAT OUT NO.

I WILL SAY THE ADMINISTRATION SAYS FLAT OUT NO.

WE HAVE NO WAY TO VERIFY IT OF, BUT THE ADMINISTRATION SAYS THEY DON'T DO THAT.

>> DO YOU THINK IT'S HAPPENING?

>> YES, AND I THINK IT'S HAPPENING BECAUSE I THINK WHEN THE ADMINISTRATION SAYS THAT OUR MILITARY IS NOT RENDERING PEOPLE, THEY LEAVE OUT TALKING ABOUT OUR INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES.

>> QUAZI-MILITARY.

>> RIGHT.

>> YOU ALSO WEIGH IN ON THE ISSUE OF TARGETED KILLING.

>> YES.

>> WHICH IS A NICE WAY OF SAYING -- >> ASSASSINATION.

>> YOU KNOW, PEOPLE DON'T LIKE THE WORD ASSASSINATION.

WE HAVE A BAN ON ASSASSINATION, IN THEORY, ON PAPER.

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE NUMBER OF TIMES THAT WE HAVE SAID WE'RE GOING TO GET OSAMA BIN LADEN OR GET AL-ZARQAWI, FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES, WE DON'T HAVE A BAN ON ASSASSINATION, SO YOUR POINT IS -- >> I MEAN, I THINK IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES WE OUGHT TO ASSASSINATE, AND I THINK MOST PEOPLE WOULD AGREE WITH THAT, BUT IF YOU FIND SOMEONE SOMEWHERE, GO GET THEM, LITERALLY.

THE PROBLEM IS THAT FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF OVERSIGHT AND ACCOUNTABILITY, NO ONE THAT WE TALKED TO IN THE ADMINISTRATION ARE OUTSIDE OF IT COULD, COULD HAVE ANY INKLING OF WHAT STANDARDS APPLY NOW TO ASSASSINATION, AND SO WHAT WE TRY TO DO IS, ACTUALLY, LIKE THE ISRAELIS WHO USE ASSASSINATION AS A, AS AN INSTRUMENT OF INTELLIGENCE AND LAW ENFORCEMENT, THEY HAVE A VERY REGULATED SYSTEM.

TO INSURE, AS WE KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENED, INSURE THAT ITS NOT ABUSE.

>> SO JUST -- JUST BRIEFLY, NO ASSASSINATION IN THE UNITED STATES?

>> ABSOLUTELY NOT.

>> AND WHEN ASSASSINATION DOES OCCUR, IT HAS TO BE AUTHORIZED BY, BY THE PRESIDENT.

>> THE PRESIDENT OFTHE UNITED STATES.

>> AND THAT IS -- THAT IS TRUE OF ANY COVERT OPERATION.

THE PRESIDENT HAS TO APPROVE IT.

>> AND GO TO THE RELEVANT COMMITTEES AND THE SENATE AND, AND THAT THE LEAST AMOUNT OF HARM BE DONE TO INNOCENT PARTIES THAT MIGHT BE NEARBY.

>> I THINK WHAT WE FOUND IN ISRAEL, IF YOU LOOK AT THE NUMBERS, IS THAT FOR EVERY SEVEN TARGETED ASSASSINATIONS, THEY HAVE THREE CIVILIAN DEATHS, SO THAT'S NOT A GOOD RATIO.

BUT BASICALLY, YEAH, I MEAN, IT'S -- THERE WOULD BE NO JUSTIFICATION FOR HAVING A TARGETED KILLING IN AMERICA.

>> WHEN YOU LOOK OUT INTO THE FUTURE, THOUGH, IN YOUR CAPACITY, YOUR PROFESSIONAL CAPACITY, WHERE DO YOU SEE THE GREATEST THREAT COMING FROM, JULIETTE?

>> IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

IT'S THE SHIA CRESCENT THAT HAS BEEN CREATEED IN IRAN, IRAQ THROUGH HEZBOLLAH.

THE ONLY SOLUTION FOR ME, GIVEN WHAT CONCEIVABLY IS A THREAT, WE CAN NOT IGNORE IRAN ANY MORE.

I THINK THAT ANY, ANY, ANY LONG-TERM MIDDLE EAST POLICY HAS GOT TO RECOGNIZE YOU CAN'T IGNORE THE MAJOR PLAYER IN THE REGION.

IT'S LIKE TALKING ABOUT ASIANS SAYING WE'RE GOING TO HAVE, GOING TO HAVE NO COMMUNICATION WITH CHINA.

IT IS THE EQUIVALENT, AND WE HAVE TO FACE IT.

WE MAY NOT LIKE ITS LEADERSHIP.

ITS LEADERSHIP IS COMPLICATED FOR ANYONE WHO STUDIES THE REGION, AS YOU KNOW, THERE ARE BAD PEOPLE AND GOOD PEOPLE.

IT IS -- BUT THIS IS A COUNTRY THAT WILL NOT BE IGNORED, AND WE CANNOT IGNORE IT.

I THINK IF I THOUGHT LONG-TERM, THAT WOULD BE IT.

>> AND INTERNALLY, I MEAN, IS THERE A THREAT FROM SUICIDE BOMBERS INTERNALLY?

IS THERE A THREAT FROM NUCLEAR, YOU KNOW -- OR IS IT BIOLOGICAL -- >> RIGHT.

>> I THINK -- >> WELL, THERE'S -- NUCLEAR ALWAYS STANDS IN THE BACKGROUND BECAUSE NO ONE REALLY KNOWS WHAT TO DO ABOUT IT, RIGHT.

IT'S JUST SO TERRIFYING, AND THERE'S NO PLAN, NO HOMELAND SECURITY PLAN FOR NUCLEAR.

SO, THAT'S SORT OF THE THING THAT STANDS BACK THERE.

I THINK IF TERRORISTS WERE TRYING TO PLAN A HIGH CONSEQUENCE EVENT, I THINK THAT THEY WOULD MORE LIKELY USE RADIOLOGICAL BECAUSE IT'S EASY, IT'S NOT VERY DETECTIBLE.

BIOLOGICAL EFFORTS ARE HARD TO WORK WITH.

DIRTY BOMBS, THE JOSE PADILLA -- >> AS WE WRAP UP, ONE OF THE THINGS YOUR REPORT QUOTED WAS -- A QUOTE FROM JOHN WINTHROP, WHO IS THE FIRST GOVERNOR OF THE MASSACHUSETTS STATE COLONY, THE PHRASE THAT'S OFTEN BEEN USED, WE ARE A CITY ON A HILL.

AND WHY DID YOU WANT TO INCLUDE THAT?

>> PEOPLE DO WORRY ABOUT AMERICA IN WAYS THAT ARE SOMEWHAT INSPIRING BECAUSE THEY LOOK TO US AS A MODEL.

SO WHEN THE TORTURE DEBATES COME UP WITH THE DETENTION STUFF, IT REALLY DOES MATTER TO PEOPLE, BUT I THINK WE ALSO -- WE USED THE WINTHROP QUOTE AS A CAUTIONARY TALE, AS WELL.

THAT WE NEED TO INSURE THAT WE BEHAVE AS WE OUGHT TO BEHAVE AS AMERICANS, BECAUSE WHEN WE DIVERGE FROM THAT, WE MAY FALL MIGHTLY IN WAYS THAT WE PROBABLY CAN'T ENVISION RIGHT NOW, AND THESE AE, YOU KNOW, THESE ARE HARD ISSUES.

NO ONE, NO ONE IS DENYING THAT, BUT I DO THINK THAT THE THREAT WILL BE HERE FOR A WHILE, AND I DO THINK THAT ITS A GOOD TIME TO TRY TO START TO RESOLVE THEM.

>> YOU JUST BROUGHT ANOTHER CHILD INTO THE WORLD, SO YOU MUST BE OPTIMISTIC ABOUT -- >> I ALWAYS SAY THAT.

I HAD A SIX WEEK OLD ON SEPTEMBER 11, AND I HAVE HAD TWO SINCE.

SO, I CAN'T BE THAT, THAT NERVOUS.

BUT, I THINK ALSO HAVING KIDS, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE ALWAYS ASK ME HOW SCARED AM I, BUT I THINK HAVING KIDS, I MEAN, MAKES -- IT SORT OF SAYS TO ME, YOU CAN'T BE TOO FATALISTIC ABOUT THE WORLD.

WE MAY NOT FEEL VERY SAFE, BUT YOU SPEND TIME WITH YOUR KIDS, AND YOU CAN PUT IT IN PERSPECTIVE IN MANY WAYS.

>> YOU'VE BEEN LISTENING TO COUNTER TERRORISM EXPERT JULIETTE KAYYEM, HAVING A SERIES OF CONVERSATIONS TAPED AT THE SUN VALLEY WRITERS' CONFERENCE.

YOU CAN LEARN MORE AT OUR WEBSITE AT IDAHOPTV.ORG.

I'M MARCIA FRANKLIN.

I HOPE YOU WILL JOIN US AT THE SAME TIME NEXT WEEK.

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