>> Reilly: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," I'M ADAM REILLY, IN FOR JIM BRAUDE.

WHILE THE COUNTRY TRIES TO MOVE ON FROM THE PANDEMIC, THE DELTA VARIANT HAS OTHER IDEAS.

ARE WE LETTING OUR GUARDS DOWN TOO SOON, AND COULD ANOTHER COVID WAVE BE ON THE HORIZON?

BOSTON MEDICAL CENTER'S DR. KATHERINE GERGEN BARNETT AND TUFTS MEDICAL CENTER'S DR. SHIRA DORON JOIN ME.

THEN, LATER, HOW DO YOU CHANGE THE MIND OF A COVID ANTI-VAXXER OR A FLAT-EARTHER?

B.U.

's LEE McINTYRE OFFERS A BLUEPRINT IN HIS NEW BOOK, "HOW TO TALK TO A SCIENCE DENIER."

I'LL TALK TO HIM AHEAD.

>> Reilly: ACROSS THE COUNTRY, LIFE IS STARTING TO LOOK A WHOLE LOT MORE LIKE WE WERE USED TO WITH MANY WORKPLACES BACK OPEN, FULL STANDS AT CONCERTS AND PROFESSIONAL SPORTS GAMES-- EVEN CRUISE SHIPS ARE SETTING SAIL AGAIN.

IN MANY WAYS, IT FEELS LIKE WE'RE STARTING TO PUT COVID BEHIND US, BUT THE U.S.

SURGEON GENERAL IS WARNING US NOT TO DECLARE "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" JUST YET.

>> THE PANDEMIC IS ABSOLUTELY NOT OVER.

THE VIRUS WINS WHEN WE LET OUR GUARD DOWN, WHEN WE TAKE OUR EYE OFF THE BALL.

WE'VE SEEN MANY TIMES THAT IT'S FOOLED US IN THE PAST.

>> Reilly: RIGHT NOW, IN MOST OF THE U.S., MASKS ARE NO LONGER REQUIRED IN OUTDOOR AND INDOOR PUBLIC SPACES FOR THE FULLY VACCINATED AND, LET'S BE HONEST, THOSE WHO LIE ABOUT BEING VACCINATED, TOO.

THAT, DESPITE NEW GUIDANCE FROM THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION THAT RECOMMENDS MASK USE FOR ALL IN LIGHT OF THE MORE CONTAGIOUS AND LIKELY MORE DANGEROUS DELTA VARIANT OF THE VIRUS, WHICH IS NOW THE MOST COMMON STRAIN OF COVID IN THE U.S. AND WHILE WE KNOW THAT AT LEAST SOME VACCINES, INCLUDING PFIZER AND MODERNA, OFFER A HIGH DEGREE OF PROTECTION AGAINST THE VARIANT, VACCINATION RATES ARE LAGGING WITH MORE THAN 30% OF THE COUNTRY COMPLETELY UNVACCINATED, AND ACCORDING TO A NEW KAISER HEALTH POLL, 14% SAYING THEY NEVER PLAN TO GET THE SHOT.

>> IF YOU ARE VACCINATED AND FULLY VACCINATED-- MEANS TWO WEEKS AFTER YOUR LAST SHOT-- THEN THERE IS GOOD EVIDENCE THAT YOU HAVE A HIGH DEGREE OF PROTECTION AGAINST THIS VIRUS.

BUT IF YOU ARE NOT VACCINATED, THEN YOU ARE IN TROUBLE.

>> Reilly: SO, IF WE KEEP OUR GUARD DOWN THIS SUMMER, WHAT CAN WE EXPECT COME THE FALL?

I'M JOINED BY DR. KATHERINE GERGEN BARNETT, THE VICE CHAIR OF PRIMARY CARE INNOVATION AND TRANSFORMATION, AND PROGRAM DIRECTOR OF THE DEPARTMENT OF FAMILY MEDICINE AT BOSTON MEDICAL CENTER; AND DR. SHIRA DORON, HOSPITAL EPIDEMIOLOGIST AT TUFTS MEDICAL CENTER, AND A PROFESSOR OF MEDICINE AT TUFTS UNIVERSITY.

THANK YOU BOTH FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING US.

>> SHIRA, LET ME START WITH YOU.

THE WHO IS CALLING FOR PEOPLE TO WEAR MASKS EVEN IF FULLY VACCINATED.

ISRAEL REIMPOSED A MASK REQUIREMENT FOR PUBLIC SAFETY INDOORS.

AND L.A. COUNTY IS CHANGING ITS MASK GUIDANCE, SUGGESTING TO PEOPLE EVEN IF FULLY VAXXED MASK UP IN PUBLIC AND INDOOR SETTINGS.

SHOULD WE BE DOING THE SAME HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS.

>> I THINK NOT.

I THINK THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHAT THE WHO IS SAYING AND WHO THEIR AUDIENCE IS.

AND WHO WE ARE.

AND WHERE WE ARE RIGHT NOW IN THE PANDEMIC.

WE'RE IN A VERY GOOD PLACE WITH LOW NUMBERS.

AND WE'VE GOT A REALLY AFFECTIVE VACCINE.

>> Reilly: KATHERINE, DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT ASSESSMENT?

>> I ABSOLUTELY THINK THAT WE NEED TO BE THINKING ABOUT WHERE PEOPLE LIVE.

I THINK TO SHIRA'S POINT WE ARE VERY LUCKY TO BE IN A STATE WITH VERY HIGH UPTAKE OF VACCINES SO OUR RISKS ARE LOW.

THAT BEING SAID THERE ARE MANY PLACES IN THE COUNTRY WHERE THE RISK OF THE DELTA VARIANT ARE REAL.

THEY'RE ABUNDANT, PEOPLE ARE UNVACCINATED IN WHICH CASE WEARING MASKS IS A GOOD IDEA.

>> LET'S TALK FOR A LITTLE WHILE IN PART BECAUSE I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT I'M UP TO SPEED.

I FEEL LIKE I LEARNED MANY DIFFERENT THINGS, ABOUT WHAT THE RISK OF THE DELTA VARIANT R HOW IT MANIFESTS ITSELF AND HOW MUCH PROTECTION OFFERS BY THE VACCINATIONS THAT SO MANY IN MASSACHUSETTS HAVE GOTTEN.

LET ME ASK BOTH OF YOU.

KATHERINE, YOU CAN START AND WE'LL COME BACK TO YOU, SHURA.

BUT LET'S TALK PEOPLE THROUGH HOW DANGEROUS THE DELTA VARIANT IS AND HOW CONTAGIOUS IT IS COMPARED TO A YEAR AGO OR SIX MONTHS AGO.

>> YEAH, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR ASKING.

SO AS WE KNOW, THE DELTA VARIANT IS ABOUT 50 PERCENT MORE CONTAGIOUS IS WHAT WE ARE LOOKING AT RIGHT NOW.

THEN THE U.K.

VARIANT WHICH WAS ALREADY MORE CONTAGIOUS THAN THE INITIAL CORONAVIRUS THAT WE SAW.

SO INCREASINGLY MORE CONTAGIOUS AS THE VIRUS MUTATES.

THAT IS THE JOB THE VIRUS IS TO GET MORE AND MORE KIND OF SLY ON HOW IT GETS INTO YOUR BODY AND HOW CONTAGIOUS IT BECOMES.

WE ALSO HAVE SOME EVIDENCE THAT IT MIGHT BE MORE DANGEROUS, ALTHOUGH WE'RE NOT CONFIDENT OF THAT DATA YET.

AND YET WE ALSO KNOW THAT THE LIKELIHOOD OF PEOPLE WHO ARE UNVACCINATED GETTING SICK GETS HIGHER AND HIGHER.

DR. MURPHY WHO SPOKE YESTERDAY AND I AGREE WITH HIM ENTIRELY, THE U.S.

SURGEON GENERAL, FOR THOSE FOLKS WHO HAVE GOTTEN BOTH VACCINES, WE KNOW WE ARE ABOUT 88 PERCENT WITH PFIZER, MODERNA PROTECTED FROM THE DELTA VARIANT.

ALTHOUGH I'M SURE THE CHAIR WILL DIR-- SHISHA WILL SAY THE JA JA VACCINE WE ARE WAITING FOR MORE DATA ON HOW PROTECTED WE ARE FROM THE DELTA VARIANT.

>> SHIRA AM I RIGHT THAT THE DELTA VARIANT, THERE IS EVIDENCE THAT IT MANIFESTS ITSELF DIFFERENTLY IN TERMS OF SYMPTOMS PEOPLE HAVE AND DON'T HAVE?

>> YEAH, IS I THINK WE NEED TO LEARN MORE ABOUT THAT.

I THINK THAT WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IS THAT IT IS VERY CONTAGIOUS.

WE WILL SEE A LOT OF INFECTION AMONG THOSE, AND SEVERE DISEASE IN AREAS WHERE THERE IS NOT A HIGHLY VACCINATED POPULATION.

WE WILL SEE A LOT OF INFECTION IN A HIGHLY VACCINATED POPULATION, WE WILL SEE BREAKTHROUGH CASES IN THOSE VACCINATIONS, AND THOSES WILL BE MILD CASES SO ST REALLY AGAIN DEPENDS ON THE LOCALE.

THE VACCINATION IS SO REGIONAL AT THIS POINT.

>> Reilly: AND I SHOULD PROBABLY NOTE, THE MEDIA HAS A ROLE TO PLAY HERE, WITH CRITICISM OF THE WAY THAT EARLY COVERAGE OF PEOPLE INFECTED WITH THE DELTA VARIANT WHO HAVE BEEN FULLY IMMUNIZED, THE WAY THE PRESS HAS FRAMED THEM.

LOOK HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE FRAMED ANYWAY, SOME OF US IN THE MEDIA HAVE NOT NOTED THAT THEY REMAINED ASYMPTOMATIC OR HAD ONLY THE MOST MILDEST SYMPTOMS SO IN THE WAY OF NOT TERRIFYING EVERYONE, WE SHOULD BE REMINDING PEOPLE OF THAT.

KT RUN, A QUESTION FOR YOU THAT IS NEAR AND DEAR TO MY HEART BECAUSE MY WIFE AND I HAVE ONE CHILD WHO IS NOT OLD ENOUGH TO BE VACCINATED YET.

HOW SOON ARE KIDS UNDER 12 GOING TO BE ABLE TO GET THE VACCINE.

WHAT DO WE KNOW AND DON'T WE KNOW.

>> WE KNOW THAT THERE ARE TRIALS VERY MUCH ACTIVELY UNDER WAY, I'M A FAMILY MEDICINE DOCTOR SO I TAKE CARE OF PEOPLE ALL AGES AN ALSO AM A MOTHER OF THREE, SO NEAR AND DEAR TO MY HEART AS WELL.

I THINK WE'RE LOOKING AT POTENTIALLY LATE SUMMER, EARLY FALL.

FOR THOSE UNDER 12.

I WILL SAY RIGHT NOW IN TERMS OF THE GREATEST PROTECTION WE CAN DO FOR OUR CHILDREN LIVING IN COMMUNITY, ARE OWN CHILDREN WHO ARE LESS THAN 12 IS PLEASE GET VACCINATED.

THAT IS THE BEST WAY TO PROTECT CHILDREN IN YOUR HOUSEHOLD AND CHILDREN IN YOUR COMMUNITY FROM GETTING SICK.

>> IF I COULD ADD SOMETHING TO THAT WHICH IS THAT THE CHILD WILL BE-- WHETHER OR NOT THE FDA GIVES THE VACS EVEN EMERGENCY AUTHORIZEATION, IT IS STILL UNKNOWN, THEY WILL HAVE TO HAVE A DISCUSSION ABOUT THAT, IF THEY DECIDE TO SAY-- THAT IS A LONGER PROCESS BUT WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IS THAT VACCINE STILL PROTECTS-- .

>> Reilly: SHIRA AT THIS POINT IN TIME DO YOU THINK IT MAKES SENSE TO BE PLANNING TO SEND KIDS BACK TO SCHOOL IN THE FALL, LEARNING IN PERSON AND WITH ALL THOSE COVID PROTOCOLS THAT WERE IN PLACE, THE DISTANCING, THE MASKING, WITH ALL THOSE PROTOCOLS REMOVED GIVEN THAT MANY KIDS IN SCHOOL WILL NOT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO GET VAXXED OR MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO GET VAXXED BY THAT POINT?

>> I DO.

I THINK THAT IF THE NUMBERS STAY HOW THEY ARE NOW, VERY LOW CASE RATES, THE CHANCE OF ANY CHILD WALKING TOO A SCHOOL BUILDING AND THERE BEING ANY COVID IN THERE ARE VERY, VERY LOW.

AND WE CAN KEEP WATCHING THOSE NUMBERS AND SEE, BUT WE DON'T NEED TO PREEM THAT, GIVEN OUR HIGH RATE OF.

>> DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT?

>> I DO AGREE.

I THINK IT'S CRITICAL TO HAVE OUR CHILDREN IN SCHOOL.

I THINK YOU KNOW, WE WILL ABSOLUTELY MOST LIKELY IF WE CONTINUE WITH THESE RATES BE A NORMAL SCHOOL YEAR, I THINK THOSE UNDER 12 THAT HAVE NOT BEEN VACCINATED WILL LIKELY NEED TO KEEP MASKS ON INDOORS.

>> Reilly: INTERESTING.

OKAY.

LOOKING AHEAD TO THE FALL, ESPECIALLY FOR BOTH OF YOU, ARE THOSE OF US WHO ARE NOW FULLY VAXXED, SHOULD WE BE EXPECTING TO BE HEADING TO GET A BOOSTER IN SEPTEMBER, OCTOBER, NOVEMBER OR AGAIN I FEEL LIKE A LOT OF LAYPEOPLE, I'VE GOT THIS AVALANCHE OF INFORMATION COMING AT ME AND TRYING TO PROCESS IT BUT IT'S NOT ALWAYS EASY.

HAVE I SEEN REPORTS RECENTLY THAT MAYBE PROTEKSZ FROM SOME OF THE VACCINES WILL EXTEND LONGER THAN FIRST THOUGHT.

WHAT IS THE STATE-OF-THE-ART KNOWLEDGE ABOUT THAT.

>> I DON'T THINK WE'LL NEED BOOSTERS THAT SOON.

I THINK-- ANTIBODY LEVELS WANTE BY THE FALL OR A YEAR AFTER VACCINATION BUT ANTIBODIES DO NOT TELL THE WHOLE STORY IN TERMS OF IMMUNITY.

WE HAVE OTHER-- WHICH DATA ARE SHOWING THAT FOR A VERY LONG TIME IT FEELS THAT PATIENT WHO HAVE SHALL-- FROM TEN YEARS AGO STILL HAVE GOOD IMMUNE RESPONSE NOW TO THAT VIRUS AND THE NEW COVID-19.

SO WE MAY FIND THAT-- .

>> I WOULD JUST ADD, FIRST OF ALL, YOU ARE NOT ALONE IN BEING BOMBARDED BY AN AVALANCHE OF MATERIAL.

I THINK ALL OF US ARE VERY MUCH AT THE EDGE OF OUR SEATS EVERY DAY IN TERMS OF THE DATA THAT IS COMING OUT.

I THINK PART OF THE VERY GOOD NEWS THAT I THINK YOU ARE ELUDING TO AS WELL IS THE STUDY THAT CAME OUT JUST A FEW DAYS AGO FROM NATURE, REALLY IT'S A SMALL SUB SET OF PEOPLE, 41 PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN VACCINATED WHO SHOW VERY HIGH LIMB-OF-KNOWED-- LYMPH NODE ACTIVATION, SHOWING THEY HAVE A HIGH LEVEL OF IMMUNE RESPONSE STILL TO THE VIRUS WHICH IS INCREDIBLY PROMISING.

BECAUSE WE DON'T NORMALLY SEE THAT LEVEL OF RESPONSE SIX MONTHS OUT.

INDICATING THAT IT MAY BE YEARS THAT WE WILL BE PROTECTED WITH THE MODERNA AND PFIZER VACCINE.

AGAIN WE DON'T KNOW AS MUCH ABOUT THE J & J AND I KNOW THIS ARE SOME QUESTIONS THAT ARE COMING OUT AROUND WHETHER THOSE PEOPLE WILL NEED A BOOSTER SOONER.

>> AS YOU GUYS ARE PROBABLY BEEN ABLE TO TELL IN THIS BRIEF CON VO, I TEND TO BE POIPS, A CATASTROPHIC THINKER, YOU PUT ME AT EASY, I APPRECIATE THAT ON A PERSONAL LEVEL, AND MAYBE YOU VOOERS FEEL THE SAME WAY.

>> GIVEN THAT, LET ME ASK BOTH OF YOU, WE ARE NOW ELIGIBLE IF WE ARE VACCINATED TO REGISTER FOR THE STATE'S VACS MILLIONS GIVEAWAY.

ARE YOU GOING TO REGISTER FOR THIS AND IF SO DO YOU KNOW WHAT WILL YOU SPEND THE MONEY ON IF YOU WIN.

I AM GOING TO REGISTER, AS IS MY WIFE AND OLDER DAUGHTER ALL INDEPENDENTLY.

>> WILL YOU BE DOING THAT.

>> I WILL LET YOU GO FIRST, SHIRA.

>> I WASN'T PLANNING ON IT.

>> OKAY, SO NO FOR YOU AND SOUNDS LIKE A MAYBE FROM YOU, KATHERINE.

>> I MEAN THERE IS A LOT OF GOOD THAT CAN BE DONE WITH A MILLION DOLLARS, SO I, YOU KNOW, I HADN'T THOUGHT OF IT UNTIL THIS MOMENT BUT I WOULD BE DELIGHTED TO MAKE SOME IMPACTS WITH A MILLION DOLLARS.

>> SOMEONE HAS TO WIN.

>> SO THANK YOU FOR THE REMINDER.

>> SOMEONE HAS TO WIN, LIKE WILLY WONKA.

>> Reilly: DR. KATHERINE GERGEN BARNET, DR. SHIRA DORON, THANKS.

THANK YOU SO MUCH NOR HAVING US, TAKE KOODZ GAIR.

AS WE MENTIONED EARLIER, ONE BIG PROBLEM WHEN IT COMES TO PREVENTING A COVID RESURGENCE IS THE FACT THAT MILLIONS OF AMERICAN SIMPLY REFUSE TO GET VACCINATED.

SOME OF THEM JUST DON'T WANT TO BE TOLD WHAT TO DO.

OTHERS BELIEVE FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP'S CLAIMS THAT COVID JUST ISN'T THAT DANGEROUS.

AND THEN, THERE'S THE SHOCKINGLY WIDESPREAD BELIEF THAT THESE LIFESAVING VACCINES ARE ACTUALLY PART OF A NEFARIOUS PLOT.

A YEAR AGO, ONE POLL FOUND THAT 44% OF REPUBLICANS THINK BILL GATES IS USING COVID VACCINATION TO IMPLANT MICROCHIPS IN PEOPLE AND TRACK THEIR MOVEMENTS, AND MORE RECENT POLLING SHOWS THAT 42% OF AMERICANS STILL BELIEVE THAT OR SOME OTHER COVID CONSPIRACY THEORY.

OBVIOUSLY, THE CLAIM IS FALSE-- LAUGHABLY SO-- BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN IT'LL GO AWAY.

AFTER ALL, A DISPIRITING NUMBER OF AMERICANS ALSO BELIEVE MAN- MADE CLIMATE CHANGE IS A HOAX AND EVEN THAT THE EARTH IS FLAT.

SO, WHEN PEOPLE DENY SCIENCE AND PUT THE REST OF US IN THE RISK IN THE PROCESS, WHAT'S THE BEST WAY TO RESPOND?

THAT'S A QUESTION MY NEXT GUEST HAS BEEN PONDERING AT LENGTH.

LEE McINTYRE IS A RESEARCH FELLOW AT BOSTON UNIVERSITY'S CENTER FOR PHILOSOPHY AND HISTORY OF SCIENCE, AND HE'S THE AUTHOR OF THE NEW BOOK, "HOW TO TALK TO A SCIENCE DENIER: CONVERSATIONS WITH FLAT EARTHERS, CLIMATE DENIERS, AND OTHERS WHO DEFY REASON."

LEE, THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME ON.

>> YOU START OFF YOUR BOOK TAKING US INTO A FLAT EARTHER CONFERENCE THAT YOU WENT TO IN 2018, I BELIEVE.

I HAD NOT KNOWN THAT FLAT EARTHISM WAS A WHOLE BIG BELIEF SYSTEM BUT AS YOU EXPLAINED, IT IS.

JUST FOR STARTERS, CAN YOU DESCRIBE SOME OF THE THINGS THAT THESE PEOPLE BELIEVE IN ADDITION TO THE FACT-- NOT THE FACTS, THE IDEA THAT THE EARTH IS FLAT.

>> YEAH.

THEY BELIEVE THAT THE EARTH IS FLAT, WHICH MEANS THAT A COUPLE OF OTHER THINGS HAVE TO FALL IN PLACE.

LIKE WHAT IS AT THE EDGE.

WELL THEY THINK THAT ANTARCTICA IS NOT A CONTINENT T IS AN ICE WALL THAT IS SPREAD AROUND THE EDGE TO KEEP THE WATER FROM FALLING OFF.

THEY THINK THAT THERE IS A DOME OVER THE TOP OF THE EARTH WHICH BY THE WAY MAKES AIR TRAVEL-- MAKES SPACE TRAVEL IMPOSSIBLE SO THEY ALSO BELIEVE THAT WE HAVE NEVER BEEN TO THE MOON.

THEY THINK THAT THE SUN AND STARS AND MOON ARE IN FACT VERY CLOSE AND RESOLVE AROUND THE EARTH RATHER THAN US RESOLVING AROUND THE SUN.

SO IT IS LIKE THE FLAT EARTH IS JUST THE FIRST PEBBLE IN THE POND AND THERE ARE A NUMBER OF OTHER THINGS THAT COME WITH THAT.

THEY ARE CONSPIRACY THEY RESTS AND WHEN YOU BELIEVE ONE CONSPIRACY THEORY YOU TEND TO TBLEEF A NUMBER OF THINGS.

>> Reilly: YOU WENT THERE IN PART BECAUSE YOU WANTED TO SEE IF YOU COULD CONVINCE THESE PEOPLE THAT THEY WERE WRONG.

HOW DID THAT GO?

>> I WENT THERE TO LEARN WHAT THEY THOUGHT.

AND THEN IF POSSIBLE, TO USE THAT TO TRY TO THEN TALK WITH-- SO MY GOAL WASN'T NECESSARILY TO CONVERT THEM ON THE SPOT.

BECAUSE, WHICH IS GREAT, BUT IT IS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO DO.

SO THE FIRST DAY I WAS JUST QUIET.

I JUST LISTENED.

I WORE MY FLANNEL SHIRT, HAD MY BADGE AND I JUST LISTENED TO WHAT THEY HAD TO SAY.

AND THE SECOND DAY I STARTED TO TALK TO THEM.

AND THE FRUSTRATING THING IS YOU CAN'T PRESENT ANY FACTS FROM GAL LAY LOW OR OTHERWISE THAT WILL CON FINSZ-- CONVINCE THEM, SO YOU HAVE TO TRY TO DO IT ANOTHER WAY.

>> Reilly: LET'S GET TO THAT OTHER WAY IN A SECRETARY BUT YOU DESCRIBE TAKING A GUY WHO YOU THOUGHT WAS VERY BRIGHT, OUT TO DINNER AND POSING TO HIM THAT FAMOUS CARL POPPER QUESTION, WHAT PEETION OF EVIDENCE WOULD FORCE YOU TO CONCLUDE THAT YOU ARE IN FACT WRONG.

AND HE COULDN'T DO IT, RIGHT.

HE COULD NOT TAKE THAT LEAP AND SAY THERE IS SOMETHING THAT WOULD MAKE HIM.

>> IT IS A GREAT QUESTION, AS YOU POINT OUT, IT IS NOT MY QUESTION.

BECAUSE THE FLAT EARTHERS MAINTAIN THAT THEIR BELIEFS ARE BASED ON EVIDENCE, NOT BASED ON FAITH.

AND THEY WILL THINK THAT THERE ARE MORE SCIENTIFIC THAN THE SCIENTISTS, BUT IF THAT IS TRUE THEN THEY HAVE TO BE ABLE TO SAY IN ADVANCE, WHAT EVIDENCE, IF I HAD IT IN MY BACK POCKET, IF I COULD SHOW IT TO THEM, WOULD FORCE THEM TO GIVE UP THEIR BELIEFS.

AND THAT FELLA AT DINNER, HE WANTED TO BE ABLE TO ANSWER ME, BUT THE MORE WE WENT AROUND TO DIFFERENT THINGS THAT MIGHT CONVINCE HIM, HE BACKED OFF TO EVERY SINGLE ONE UNTIL IT WAS FINALLY CLEAR NOT ONLY TO ME BUT I THINK TO HIM, THAT NOTHING COULD CHANGE HIS MIND.

>> Reilly: ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I TOOK AWAY FROM YOUR BOOK, THERE WAS A PAGE THAT I SAID AHA!, BECAUSE I FELT LIKE YOU PUT YOUR FINGER ON SOMETHING SO VITAL, IT IS NOT JUST ABOUT THE BELIEF IN QUESTION, IT IS ABOUT THE RUSH THAT COMES FROM FEELING LIKE YOU HAVE ACCESSED SECRET KNOWLEDGE THAT THE REST OF THE WORLD LACKS.

AND THE SENSE OF COMMUNITY THAT THAT CAN GIVE YOU, ESPECIALLY IF IN OTHER AREAS OF YOUR LIFE YOU HAVE FELT LIKE A VICTIM OR FELT ALIENATED.

I THINK IT WAS THAT THAT MADE ME SAY, YOU'VE GOT IT.

>> YEAH, THAT IS, YOU PUT YOUR FINGER ON EXACTLY THE THING TO UNDERSTAND SCIENCE DENIAL.

PEOPLE ARE ALWAYS ASKING HOW CAN THEY BELIEVE THESE THINGS.

IT ST BECAUSE IT IS NOT ABOUT FACT.

IT IS ABOUT IDENTITY.

THE FLAT EARTH CONVENTION IS WHERE THEY GO TO BUILD THEIR IDENTITY, TO TALK TO OTHER PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE THE THING THAT THEY BELIEVE.

AND FAR AND AWAY, MORE THAN ONE PERSON, IN FACT, I WOULD SAY MOST OF THE PEOPLE I SPOKE WITH SPOKE OF THE MOVIE THE MATRIX WHERE THEY SAW THEMSELVES AS PART OF AN ELITE WHO HAD, YOU KNOW, QUOTE UNQUOTE TAKEN THE RED PILL.

NOW UNDERSTOOD REALITY AS IT WAS, AND THEIR JOB WAS TO CONVINCE THE OTHERS.

AND THE FUNNY PART WAS THAT AS I WAS TRYING TO CONVINCE THEM THAT THEY WERE WRONG, THEY WERE TRYING TO CONVINCE ME THAT I WAS WRONG.

BECAUSE THEY KEPT SAYING BE CAREFUL, WE USED TO BE JUST LIKE YOU, WE USED TO BE GLOBALISTS.

AND THEN WE FOLLOWED THE RED PILL-- SWALLOWED THE RED PILL.

>> GLOBALISTS THEIR TERM FOR PEOPLE THAT BELIEV THAT THE EARTH.

>> THAT IS THE NICE TERM THEY USE THERE ARE SLURS AS WELL THAT I CAN'T SAY.

>> THERE ARE A BUNCH MORE I WANT TO ASK YOU.

LET'S CUT TO THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION, FOR VIEWERS WHO MIGHT HAVE FRIENDS OR FAMILY WHO ARE CONVINCED THAT COVID VACCINES ARE GOING TO CHANGE THEIR DNA OR GET A BILL GATES MICROCHIP INTO THEM, OR FOR VIEWERS WHO MIGHT HAVE FRIENDS OR FAMILY WHO JUST REJECT THE IDEA OF HUMAN DRIVEN CLIMATE CHANGE, WHAT SAN FEBLGHTIVE WAY TO TRY TO GET THOSE PEOPLE TO THINK TWICE, MAYBE CHANGE THEIR MINDS, IF IN FACT THEY ARE NOT BIG ON EVIDENCE, HOW DO YOU GO ABOUT TRYING TO REACH THEM?

>> IS THERE WAS A BRILLIANT STUDY IN NATURE, HUMAN BEHAVIER A FEUR YEARS AGO WHICH SAID IT IS EFFECTIVE TO TALK TO SCIENCE DENIERS, IF YOU ARE A SCIENTIST YOU CAN TALK ABOUT FACTS.

BUT IF YOU ARE NOT, THERE ARE OTHER THINGS THAT YOU CAN DO.

THE MAIN THING THAT YOU NEED TO DO IS TO LISTEN AND NOT BE INSULTING.

AND THEN THIS IS GOING BEYOND THE EVIDENCE A LITTLE BIT, BUT TO MY EXPERIENCE, YOU HAVE TO REALLY HAVE SOME EMPATHY FOR THEM.

REMEMBER, THAT THEY ARE VICTIMS OF THIS INFORMATION.

THEY DIDN'T COME UP WITH THE PROBLEMS OUT OF THEIR OWN HEAD, SCIENCE DENIAL ISN'T A MISTAKE T IS A LIE.

AND SO SOMEBODY HAS MADE THIS UP AND HAS IT IN MIND FOR OTHER PEOPLE TO BELIEVE.

AND SO THAT WILL MAYBE WORK YOUR EMPATHY A LITTLE BIT.

IF YOU ARE TALKING TO A FRIEND OR FAMILY MEMBER THAT'S THE BEST WAY TO CONVINCE THEM.

BECAUSE IT IS REALLY ABOUT TRUST.

SCIENCE DENIERS ARE SUSPICIOUS.

AND IF YOU CAN EMPATHIZE YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH THEM, LISTEN, ASK QUESTIONS, SOMETIMES THEY WILL CONVINCE THEMSELVES THAT THEY ARE WRONG.

YOU CAN'T CHANGE SOMEBODY'S MIND FOR THEM.

YOU CAN CREATE AN OPPORTUNITY FOR THEM TO CHANGE THEIR MIND AND YOU DO THAT THROUGH PATIENCE, WHICH IS VERY HARD T IS VERY HARD, I MEAN I THOUGHT THIS WHEN I WAS AT THE FLAT EARTH CONVENTION-- CONVENTION.

I WANTED TO DE BUNK THEM, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN SO SATISFYING, BUT THAT IS NOT THE LONG GAME, THAT IS NOT HOW YOU CONVINCE SOMEBODY YOU LOVE TO GET A COVIRD SHOT.

>> YOU SUGGEST A MESSAGE THAT ALMOST REMINDING ME OF PHISHING, WHERE ARE YOU NOT SUGGESTING THINGS TO THEM THAT THEY MIGHT WANT TO THINK ABOUT, BUT ASKING THESE PEOPLE, WELL, CAN YOU GIVE ME SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT, WHAT IS A PIECE OF EVIDENCE THAT YOU FIND ESPECIALLY COME PELLING TO SUPPORT THIS-- COMPELLING, TO SUPPORT THIS TO ALL APPEARANCES STRANGE IDEA THAT YOU HAVE.

>> THAT IS ANOTHER GOOD STRATEGY.

BECAUSE IF YOU ASK THEM THOSE SORTS OF QUESTIONS, THEY WILL TELL YOU WHAT THEY THINK.

THEY WILL OFFER YOU, YOU DON'T HAVE TO JUST READ A SCRIPT YOU GOT OFF THE INTERNET.

THEY WILL TILL THE SORTS OF THINGS THAT THEY THINK.

AND THEN ENGAGE IN A CONVERSATION.

AS LONG AS YOU CAN KEEP THEM TALKING AND IT IS RESPECTFUL, YOU HAVE GOT A GOOD CHANCE.

AND YOU KNOW WHAT, ONE REALLY GOOD STRATEGY TO CONVINCE SOMEBODY IS TO TRY TO GET THEM TO CONVINCE.

YOU KNOW, ASK THEM, WHY SHOULDN'T I GET MY COVID SHOT.

AND THEN THEY START BRINGING SOMETHING UP, AND YOU SAY DO YOU HAVE ANY EVIDENCE FOR THAT.

HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT THAT IS TRUE.

CAN YOU SHOW ME YOUR SOURCE.

EVENTUALLY THEY'LL GET FRUSTRATED BECAUSE THEY IN FACT DON'T HAVE THE EVIDENCE TO CONVINCE YOU.

AND THAT CREATES WHAT PSYCHOLOGISTS CALL COGNITIVE DISSNANS-- DISSANS IN THEIR MIND AND SOMETIMES THAT BRINGS THEM AROUND.

>> Reilly: YOU TALKED A MOMENT AGO ABOUT PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE THESE THINGS WITH DISINFORMATION, ONE OF THE POINTS YOU MAKE IN THE BOOK IS THAT IN SOME CASES, NOT ALL, THEY ARE THE VICTIMS OF DISINFORMATION AT AN EXTREMELY HIGH LEVEL AND YOU CITE THE EXAMPLE OF THE TOBACCO INDUSTRY BACK IN, I THINK THE 50SEE OR THEREABOUTS WORKING EXTREMELY HARD TO CONVINCE PEOPLE THAT CIGARETTES WERE TOTALLY SAFE, WHEN THE SCIENCE HAD INDICATED THAT IN FACT THEY WERE NOT.

AND I THINK WE HAVE SOME VISUALS.

I HOPE I'M RIGHT ABOUT THIS, ABOUT A SANFORD MEDICAL VIDEO SHOWING SOME REALLY REMARKABLE IMAGES OF AD CAMPAIGNS AIMED AT GETTING PEOPLE TO DO EXACTLY THAT.

I'M NOT SURE IF WE HAVE THEM OR NOT.

OH, WE HAVE A SOUND BITE, LET'S LISTEN.

>> SCIENTISTS WITH A LABORATORY BEHIND THEM-- AND, VERY OFTEN, THEY QUOTED SCIENTIFIC STUDIES THAT WERE COMPLETELY INVALID-- OFTEN THEY WERE PAID FOR BY THE INDUSTRY TO MAKE A SPECIFIC POINT RATHER THAN TO ASK A QUESTION, AND THAT THESE WERE VERY SIMPLISTICALLY PUT OUT AS SCIENTIFIC FINDINGS ABOUT THE SAFETY OF THEIR TOBACCO PRODUCT.

>> Reilly: AGAIN THRARKS IS A CUR RATED VIDEO FROM STANFORD MEDICINE.

IN YOUR EXPERIENCE, WHEN IT COMES TO THE RANGE OF PERNICIOUS TYPES OF SCIENCE DENIAL, HOW MANY SUBGROUPS HAVE SPRUNG UP ORGANICALLY, LIKE FLAT EARTHERS AND HOW MANY HAVE BEEN DRIVEN BY BIG REAL LIFE CONSPIRACIES TO GET US TO BELIEVE SOMETHING IS FALSE.

>> IT IS REALLY HARD TO KNOW.

I WOULD SAY THAT WHEN PEOPLE TALK ABOUT SCIENCE-- UMBRELLA, THERE ARE MANY THINGSING TO FALL UNDER THAT, FLAT EARTH, ANTI-VACS, CLIMATE DENIAL, SOME OF THOSE HAVE BEEN POLITICIZED, SOME OF THEM HAVEN'T.

SOME OF THE PEOPLE BEHIND IT LIKE CIGARETTES OR CLIMATE CHANGE, IT IS ABOUT MONEY, RIGHT.

THAT IS THE INTEREST, CORPORATE MONEY N SOME IT IS IDEOLOGICAL INTEREST.

AND IN SOME CASES YOU JUST CAN'T FOR THE LIFE OF YOU FIGURE OUT WHO IS MAKING A BUCK ON THIS OR WHO WANTS SOMEBODY TO BELIEVE FALSE INFORMATION.

BUT IT IS ALMOST ALWAYS THE CASE THAT THESE THINGS DO NOT SPRING UP ORGANICALLY.

I WILL GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE.

EVEN IF THEY ARE MADE UP AS A HOAX, EVEN IF IT IS A JOKE, SO THERE IS NO INTEREST BEHIND IT OTHER THAN TO MAKE FUN OF SOMEONE.

THAT IS SOMETIMES HOW THEY GET STARTED.

THERE IS ONE THAT STARTED THE OTHER DAY THAT BIRDS AREN'T REAL, THAT BIRDS-- BIRDS DIED YEARS AGO AND THEY ARE JUST DRONES AND THEY ARE LOOKING DOWN ON US, SPYING ON US.

NOW THAT WAS MADE UP, AS A JOKE, THAT WAS MADE UP TO MAKE FUN OF TO MAKE FUN OF SCIENCE DENIERS, BUT WOULDN'T YOU KNOW IT, SOME PEOPLE NOW BELIEVE THAT IT IS TRUE.

SO I MEAN THE IRONY, FEEDING BACK ON ITSELF THAT THE PERSON WHO MADE IT UP, IT WAS A JOKE, BUT THE REAL SCIENCE DENIERS START TO BELIEVE IT.

>> AND THAT SPEAKS TO THE EMOTIONAL RUSH THAT COMES THAT YOU PULLED BACK THE CURTAIN, REALLY BRIEFLY, I'M SURE WE'RE GOING TO HAVE PEOPLE WATCHING, SAYING TO THEMSELVES, THAT SAUL WELL AND GOOD, THE IDEA OF TALKING PATIENTLY AND EMPATHETICALLY TO SOMEONE WHO BELIEVES THIS IS NOT SCIENCE, THAT THERE ARE NETWORKS, BRINGING PETA FILES INTO THE U.S. CAPITOL, THAT KIND OF THING.

OR THAT VACCINES ARE EVIL AND BEING USED TO ENTRAP US.

BUT I ONLY HAVE SO MUCH TIME IN MY LIFE.

I HAVE A JOB, I HAVE A FAMILY.

I WANT TO SLEEP, I NEED TO BE ABLE TO-- WHY IS IT IMPORTANT TO ENGAGE IN THE SORT OF DEEP CONVERSATION THAT YOU ARE DISCUSSING?

>> IT IS THE ONLY THING THAT WORKS.

AND SCIENCE DENIAL IS GROWING.

ST GETTING WORSE.

I THINK THAT THE THING THAT LEAD TO WHAT I CALL POST TRUTH, THE POLITICAL SUB ORDINATION OF REALITY ABOUT VOTING OR JANUARY 6th INSURRECTION CAME FROM SIX OR SEVEN YEARS OF SCIENCE DENIAL.

BEING VERY SUCCESSFUL.

AND PEOPLE LOOKING AT THAT SAND SAYING WOW, IF YOU CAN DENY THE TRUTH ABOUT CIGARETTE SMOKING OR ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE, YOU CAN DENY THE TRUTH ABOUT ANYTHING.

SO WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT NOW.

>> ALL RIGHT, LEE McINTYRE, THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE TO TALK ABOUT IT, IT IS A FASCINATING GOOK.

INCREDIBLY TIMELY THANK YOU VERY MUCH, I ENJOY IT.

THE BOOK AGAIN IS "HOW TO TALK TO A SCIENCE DENIER: CONVERSATIONS WITH FLAT EARTHERS, CLIMATE DENIERS, AND OTHERS WHO DEFY REASON."

FINALLY TONIGHT, THOUGH LIFE IS RESUMING FOR MANY AND THE DEATH TOLL HAS DROPPED DRAMATICALLY, PEOPLE ARE STILL DYING OF COVID EVERY DAY.

AND WITH THE HELP OF THE "FACES OF COVID" TWITTER ACCOUNT, WE'LL CONTINUE TO REMEMBER SOME OF THOSE LIVES LOST.

LIKE 60-YEAR-OLD DANIEL PARR OF HARWICH, WHO WAS "AN ARTISAN AT CRAFTING AND BUILDING ANYTHING HE PUT HIS MIND TO.

HE WOULD DEPENDABLY AND MAGNANIMOUSLY USE HIS SKILLS AND RESOURCES TO HELP OTHERS IN NEED."

87-YEAR-OLD BARBARA HOLLETT OF CENTERVILLE.

HER FAMILY SAID THAT "SHE ESPECIALLY ENJOYED MAKING THURSDAY NIGHT DINNERS, SHOPPING FOR TREASURES AT THE FLEA MARKET, BIRTHDAY DINNERS, COOKOUTS ON THE BEACH."

AND 87-YEAR-OLD FRANK DECKER OF GLASTONBURY, CONNECTICUT, WHOSE FAMILY WROTE IN: "HE WORKED FOR MANY YEARS FOR THE TOWN OF GLASTONBURY DEPARTMENT OF SANITATION WHILE THEY RAISED THEIR THREE CHILDREN-- FRANK, CAROL, AND LINDA."

IF YOU LOST SOMEONE YOU LOVE TO THE PANDEMIC AND WOULD LIKE TO SHARE THEIR STORY, PLEASE, VISIT www.twitter.com/faces-of-covid.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT.

WE'LL BE BACK NEXT WEEK.

THANKS FOR WATCHING.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org