>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & COMPANY.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> THE SUMMIT IS AN HISTORIC SUMMIT >> THE DOORS OPEN TO SWEDEN AS NATO LEADERS MEET , WITH THE CRUCIAL SUMMIT KICKING OFF, I'M JOINED BY THE U.S.

AMBASSADOR TO THE ALLIANCE, JULIAN SMITH.

>>> THEN.

ISRAELIS TAKE TO THE STREET TO OPPOSE CONTROVERSIAL JUDICIAL REFORMS.

I SPEAK TO A REAL MARK ELITE, THE FORMER LABOR POLITICIAN AND HIGH-TECH ENTREPRENEUR.

>>> AND A WORLD ON THE MOVE, AS MIGRATION NUMBERS SURGE, HOW CAN HUMANITY ADAPT?

I ASK ALEXANDER BETTS, WHO HEADS UP THE REFUGEE STUDY CENTER AT OXFORD UNIVERSITY.

>>> ALSO AHEAD.

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MICHELLE MARTIN TELLS WHAT THE WEDDING INDUSTRY REVEALS ABOUT AMERICAN SOCIETY.

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>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY GOT A ROCKSTAR WELCOME IN LITHUANIA AS HE ARRIVED FOR THE NATO SUMMIT .

TAKE A LOOK AT THESE PICTURES OF HIS AND FIRST LADY EXTRAORDINARY RECEPTION.

THE PRESIDENT HAS EXPRESSED FRUSTRATION, THOUGH, ABOUT THE LACK OF A TIMELINE FOR HIS COUNTRY'S MEMBERSHIP OF THE ALLIANCE, CALLING IT ABSURD.

MR. VOLODYMYR IS SET TO MEET WITH U.S. PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN TOMORROW.

THE AMERICAN LEADER COMES TO THE SUMMIT WITH A WIN ALREADY IN THE BAG, AS TURKEY OPENS THE WAY FOR SWEDEN TO JOIN THE ALLIANCE.

THAT'LL BE THE FIFTH LARGEST COUNTRY IN EUROPE, AND YOU CAN SEE ON THIS MAP THAT SWEDEN'S ENTRY WOULD INCREASE NATO TERRITORY DRAMATICALLY.

OUR MELISSA BELL IS IN VILINIUS, LITHUANIA, FOR US.

MELISSA, YOUR ROCKSTAR RECEPTION FOR THE UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT, BUT IT DOESN'T LOOK ONE THING HE REALLY WANTED, AND THAT IS SOME SORT OF TIMELINE IN TERMS OF ENTRY INTO NATO FOR THE COUNTRY.

>> Reporter: THAT'S RIGHT.

YOU HEARD HIS VERY CLEAR FRUSTRATION EXPRESSED IN THAT TWEET HE PUT OUT EVEN AS HE HEADED HERE TO VILINIUS.

HE WAS ALL ABOUT THAT CALENDAR, THE TIMETABLE.

IT WAS AT ONCE, HE SAID, ABSURD AND UNPRECEDENTED.

THAT HE SHOULD BE , HIS COUNTRY SHOULD BE BEING GIVEN NO CLEAR TIMETABLE EITHER TO A VERY INVITATION INTO NATO, OR TO MEMBERSHIP ITSELF , WITH CONDITIONS PLACED IN THE WAY INSTEAD.

ON THE OTHER HAND, WE'VE BEEN HEARING FROM THE NATO SECRETARY- GENERAL IN A REALLY CONGRATULATORY TONE ABOUT WHAT THE NATO ALLIES HAD ACHIEVED THEIR OVER THE COURSE OF THE DAY, AND THAT IS ESSENTIALLY AN AGREEMENT ON WHAT THE FINAL COMMUNIQUÉ WILL BE.

THE QUESTION OF ITS THORNY WORDING HAD BEEN UP IN QUESTION BECAUSE OF THE DEEP DIVISIONS THERE ARE ABOUT EXACTLY WHEN AND HOW AND HOW FAR NATO SHOULD GO TOWARDS ITS UKRAINIAN ALLY IN TERMS OF THE SPECIFICS OF ITS SUCCESSION.

ONE OF THE QUESTIONS JAWANZA STOLTENBERG WAS ASKED WAS WHY?

WHY SO MUCH THAT THE PATIENT IN LAYING OUT A CLEAR TIMETABLE?

THE SECRETARY-GENERAL COULDN'T QUITE REPLY.

THE FACT IS THAT THIS IS A SUMMIT BEING CLOSELY WATCHED BY MOSCOW, AND THE FACT OF ANY CLEAR TIMELINE OR TIMETABLE BEING TO UKRAINE WOULD TIE NATO AND THE NATO ALLIANCE UP CLEARLY TO THE OUTCOMES OF THE DURATION OF THE WAR IN UKRAINE , AND TO SOME OF ITS MEMBERS, THE UNITED STATES AND GERMANY IN PARTICULAR, THAT WAS SIMPLY UNACCEPTABLE.

SO INSTEAD, WHAT WE HAVE IS , NONETHELESS, SOME SERIOUS STEPS BEING TAKEN BY NATO.

FOR INSTANCE, REMOVING THE REQUIREMENT OF A NAP, MEMBERSHIP PLAN EXCESSIVE FOR UKRAINE, IS A SUBSTANTIAL ONE, SAID JENS STOLTENBERG, AS IT TURNS A TWO-STEP PROCESS INTO A SINGLE STEP PROCESS.

NOW, TO VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, WITH ALL OF THE SACRIFICES AND ALL OF THE MANY LIVES LOST AND ALL OF THE TIME THAT HAS PASSED, FRIENDLY, TO BE HONEST, SINCE 2008, AND THE PLEDGE THAT THE ACCESSION OF GEORGIA AND UKRAINE WOULD FOLLOW, YOU CAN HEAR THE FRUSTRATION.

AS YOU SAY, IT WAS A ROCKSTAR WELCOME.

THEY GREETED HIM.

THIS IS A COUNTRY THAT UNDERSTANDS ALL TOO PLAINLY THE DIFFICULTIES OF TRYING TO PRICE ONESELF AWAY FROM MOSCOW'S SPHERE OF CONTROL , THE BALTIC STATES THEMSELVES ONLY ACHIEVED ACCESSION TO NATO BACK IN 2004, AND WHAT WE'VE SEEN OVER THE COURSE OF THE DAY HERE ARE MANY, MANY YOUNG PEOPLE WALKING AROUND DRAPED IN THOSE UKRAINIAN FLAGS.

YOU'LL SEE THEM ON SO MANY OF THE HOMES, AND MANY OF THOSE LITHUANIANS TURNED UP TODAY TO GREET PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY, UNDERSTANDING VERY MUCH THE STRUGGLE THAT HE REPRESENTS .

>> YEAH, AND IT SLOWS BALTIC STATES THAT ARE REPRESENTING MEMBERS OF NATO THAT REALLY WOULD LIKE TO SEE THAT TIMELINE , AND AN EXPEDITED ACCESSION FOR UKRAINE INTO NATO AND JOINING THE ALLIANCE.

MELISSA BELL, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> WITH JULIAN SMITH, U.S.

AMBASSADOR TO NATO, FOR MORE ON THIS TOPIC.

FIRST, WE MOVED TO ISRAEL.

>>> LARGE-SCALE DEMONSTRATIONS ARE ONCE MORE TAKING OVER THE STREET AS PEOPLE TAKE PART IN A DAY OF DISRUPTION AND RESISTANCE.

THEIR PROTESTING JUDICIAL REFORMS THAT SOME PEOPLE FEAR WILL WEAKEN THE COUNTRY'S COURTS AND ITS DEMOCRACY.

FOR MORE ON THESE REFORMS AND THE PROTESTS, I ENJOYED FROM JULIE'S ROOM LIKE CORRESPONDENT HADAS GOLD.

BEFORE WE GET INTO THE PROTESTS THEMSELVES AND WHAT YOU WITNESSED THERE IN YOUR REPORTING TODAY, TALK ABOUT WHAT TRANSPIRED LAST NIGHT AT THE KNESSET.

>> Reporter: WELL, PART OF THE REASON WHY THESE PROTESTERS HAVE COME OUT IN SUCH FORCE TODAY IS BECAUSE OF THE LEGISLATION THAT WAS PASSED LAST NIGHT.

NOW, THE PROTESTS HAVE BEEN GOING ON FOR MONTHS NOW, BUT THE LEGISLATION OF THIS JUDICIAL OVERHAUL HAD BEEN ESSENTIALLY FROZEN IN PLACE SINCE MARCH.

THAT WAS WHEN THERE WAS MASSIVE GENERAL STRIKES ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

THE DEFENSE MINISTER HAD COME OUT AGAINST THIS OVERHAUL.

AND THE LEGISLATION WAS FROZEN, AND THERE WERE NEGOTIATIONS REACH SOME SORT OF COMPROMISE.

BUT LAST NIGHT, THE COALITION LED BY ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER STARTED THE PROCESS ONCE AGAIN.

THIS WAS ONE VOTE OF 3 FOR 1 ASPECT OF THIS OVERALL PACKAGE OF REFORMS.

THIS SPECIFIC LEGISLATION HAS TO DO WITH TRYING TO REMOVE THE SUPREME COURT'S ABILITY TO DECLARE GOVERNMENT ACTIONS UNREASONABLE.

RIGHT NOW, THE SUPREME COURT HAS RATHER BROUGHT ABILITY TO DECLARE THAT GOVERNMENT ACTION, EVEN IF IT DOESN'T BREAK A LAW, IS UNREASONABLE AND CANNOT STAND.

SO THIS IS JUST ONE OF THREE VOTES TO TRY TO STRIP THAT AWAY.

BUT IT ALMOST DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THAT SPECIFIC LEGISLATION WOULD HAVE SAID.

THE FACT THAT IT'S PART OF THIS OVERALL JUDICIAL OVERHAUL PACKAGE, THE FACT THAT IT'S BACK ON THE TABLE, THAT VOTES ARE BEING TAKEN, THAT'S WHAT PROMPTED THESE PROTESTERS TO COME OUT WITH SUCH FORCE ON WHAT THEY CALLED THIS DAY OF DISRUPTION ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

>> YEAH, AND HOW DID THE PROTESTS THAT YOU SAW TODAY COMPARED TO THOSE THAT WE'VE SEEN AT THE HEIGHT OF THIS GOING BACK TO EVEN MARCH?

AFTER THIS INITIAL PACKAGE , AS YOU MENTIONED, OF JUDICIARY REFORMS WERE INTRODUCED, THAT WAS IN JANUARY, BUT SUBSEQUENTLY, WE HAVE SEEN WEEKS UPON WEEKS OF PROTEST.

HOW DOES THIS ONE RIGHT?

>> YEAH, SO THERE HAVE BEEN WEEKLY PROTESTS EVERY SATURDAY NIGHT, SOMETIMES PROTESTS WILL POP OUT AT DIFFERENT PLACES, BUT THIS, TODAY, HAS BEEN THE BIGGEST THAT WE HAVE SEEN, DEFINITELY, IN MONTHS.

WE WERE JUST ACTUALLY AT ISRAEL'S MAIN AIRPORT, AND IT HAD ESSENTIALLY BEEN TAKEN OVER COMPLETELY BY PROTESTERS.

THERE WERE THOUSANDS OF PROTESTERS.

THEY HAD ESSENTIALLY PLUGGED UP THE ENTIRE ARRIVALS AREA OF THE AIRPORT.

I WOULD DEFINITELY SAY THERE WERE AT LEAST THOUSANDS OF THEM THERE, AND THOSE TYPES OF STAINS ARE THINGS THAT WE HAVE NOT SEEN IN SOME TIME.

THE PROTESTS HAVE BEEN GOING ON ALL DAY LONG, FROM THE MORNING, AND THEY PLAN TO CONTINUE THROUGH THE EVENING AND ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

NOT JUST IN JERUSALEM, NOT AS IN TEL AVIV, BUT ALSO IN SMALLER PLACES.

EVEN AS WE WERE DRIVING ALONG BRIDGES OVER THE HIGHWAY FILLED WITH PROTESTERS WAVING THEIR FLAGS SHOWING THEIR SIGNS OFF TO THE DRIVERS ALONG THE WAY.

SO DEFINITELY SOME OF THE BIGGEST PROTEST THAT WE HAVE SEEN, AND IT'S BEEN SPARKED BY THIS LEGISLATION PASSING, AND THE FEARS THAT THIS OVERHAUL PACKAGE IS ONCE AGAIN VERY MUCH ON THE TABLE.

>> WHAT IS THE REACTION BEEN FROM THE NETANYAHU GOVERNMENT, FROM THE PRIME MINISTER HIMSELF?

IS THERE ANY INDICATION THAT THIS COULD PERHAPS INSTALL THE SECOND ROUND OF VOTING THAT IS EXPECTED HERE?

>> Reporter: WELL, BENJAMIN NETANYAHU HAS NOT MADE ANY SPECIFIC STATEMENT REGARDING THE PROTESTERS TODAY.

WE HAD HEARD SOMETHING FROM NATIONAL SECURITY MINISTER ABOUT POLICE TRYING TO RESTORE ORDER, AND CALLING ON THEM TO RESTORE ORDER AGAINST THE PROTESTS.

WE DO KNOW THERE HAVE BEEN AT LEAST 70 ARRESTS SO FAR OF PROTESTERS, AT LEAST A DOZEN HAVE BEEN LATELY INJURED, BUT THE LINE THAT YOU HEAR FROM THE GOVERNMENT IS ACTUALLY THAT THESE PROTESTERS ARE TRYING TO STOP DEMOCRACY.

PROTESTERS DURING THE VOTING LAST NIGHT ACTUALLY, AT ONE POINT, DO THEY SIT IN ON THE FLOOR OF THE PARLIAMENT.

THEY WERE REMOVED FORCIBLY BY PARLIAMENT SECURITY, AND THERE WAS A LOT OF COMMENTS, INCLUDING FROM THE SPEAKER OF THE PARLIAMENT, WAS A MEMBER OF BENJAMIN NETANYAHU'S PARTY, SAYING, THESE PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO STOP THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS, BECAUSE FROM THE GOVERNMENT'S POINT OF VIEW, THEY FAIRLY AND SQUARELY WON THE LAST ELECTION, THEY HAVE A MAJORITY IN PARLIAMENT, THEY HAVE THE SEATS TO DO THIS, AND THEY SAY THIS IS WHAT THEIR VOTERS WANT.

THEY SAY THAT A REFORM IN THE JUDICIARY IS SORELY NEEDED, AND THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO SAY THAT THE JUDICIARY COULD STAND SOME OF THE REFORMS, BUT I THINK THE PROBLEM FOR THE OPPOSITION, THE PROBLEM FOR THESE PROTESTERS IS THE WAY THIS REFORM WAS PUSHED THROUGH, AND HOW FAST IT WAS PUSHED THROUGH, AND ALSO HOW EXTREME SOME OF THE MEASURES ARE.

NOW, WHILE BENJAMIN NETANYAHU HAS WALKED BACK A LITTLE BIT FROM SOME OF THE MORE EXTREME ELEMENTS OF THIS PACKAGE, INCLUDING THE, THERE WAS A PROPOSAL THAT THE PARLIAMENT WOULD BE ABLE TO EVEN OVERTURN SUPREME COURT DECISIONS, HE SAYS THAT IS OFF THE TABLE.

THESE PROTESTERS, THE OPPOSITION, ESSENTIALLY DON'T BELIEVE THAT.

THEY ARE VERY FEARFUL THAT THIS WILL STILL BE VERY MUCH AN EXTREME REFORM, AND FOR THEM, THE ONLY ACCEPTABLE OPTION IS FOR THIS JUDICIAL OVERHAUL TO >> THESE PROTESTS HAVE BEEN ONGOING FOR MONTHS NOW, AND IT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE THEY'RE GOING TO BE SUBSIDE ANYTIME SOON.

HADAS GOLD, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR REALLY A PORTRAIT REPORTING.

>>> AND FOR MORE ON THESE PROTESTS, I'M JOINED BY AROUND BERKELEY, A FORMER LABOR POLITICIAN AND A PROMINENT ISRAELI BUSINESSMAN.

HE IS THE FOUNDER OF JERUSALEM VENTURE PARTNERS.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

FIRST AND FOREMOST, WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TO THIS LATEST MOVE OVERNIGHT OF PARLIAMENT PASSING ITS FIRST READING OF THIS REASONABLENESS ACT?

WHY DO YOU CONSIDER IT DANGEROUS?

>> SO IT'S NOT JUST ME.

IT'S THE ENTIRE HIGH-TECH SECTOR.

IT'S DOCTORS.

IT'S PILOTS.

IT'S RESERVE SPECIAL FORCES UNITS.

IT'S TEACHERS.

IT'S ALL OVER THE COUNTRY.

IT'S PEOPLE THAT ARE COMING FROM THE CENTER, FROM THE LEFT, FROM THE MODERATE RIGHT, THAT ARE SAYING THAT A JUDICIAL OVERHAUL THAT NETANYAHU IS TRYING TO LEAD TOGETHER WITH SOME OF HIS VERY EXTREME RIGHT MINISTERS, IS JUST UNACCEPTABLE, AND IS TAKING ISRAEL FROM DEMOCRACY TO A VERY DIFFERENT WAY OF GOVERNING.

AND SO WHAT WE'RE SAYING IS NO.

THIS WILL NOT BE ACCEPTABLE.

WE WILL NOT CONTINUE TO ACT THIS WAY IN A COUNTRY WHICH HAS SO MANY SOCIAL BONDAGE BETWEEN PEOPLE.

SO MANY VOLUNTEERS.

SO MANY PEOPLE THAT ARE DOING SO MUCH FOR THIS COUNTRY TO LEAD A GOVERNMENT, WHICH IS AN EXTREME RIGHT-WING GOVERNMENT, TO SORT OF HIJACK THE JUDICIAL SYSTEM , AND TO TRY TO TURN IT FROM A OPEN DEMOCRACY THAT ISRAEL'S BEEN PROUD OF , OUR DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, OUR FOUNDER OF THE COUNTRY WAS SO PROUD OF THE DEMOCRACY THAT WE WERE ABLE TO ESTABLISH YEAR .

TO TAKE IT TO SOMETHING WHICH IS A DIFFERENT WAY OF GOVERNING , LIKE YOU HAVE IN POLAND, OR LIKE YOU HAVE IN HUNGARY.

THAT'S JUST NOT GOING TO BE ACCEPTABLE BY THE ISRAELI PEOPLE.

>> ARE YOU SURPRISED TO THE DEGREE THAT THIS DIVISIVENESS HAS TURNED, SORT OF, THE FEVER PITCH, AND HAVING LEADERS, MULTIPLE HIGH-LEVEL OFFICIALS IN THE COUNTRY OVER THE PAST FEW MONTHS REALLY DEEMING THIS AN EXISTENTIAL THREAT THAT YOU'RE SEEING INTERNALLY?

THE THREAT THROUGHOUT ISRAEL'S HISTORY, NOTABLY, HAD COME FROM THE OUTSIDE , AND NOW THIS IS SOMETHING THAT IS TRANSPIRING WITHIN THE ISRAELI SOCIETY ITSELF .

DOES THAT SURPRISE YOU?

>> WELL, I KNOW THAT, YOU KNOW, WE, WE'VE BEEN A COUNTRY THAT WAS FIGHTING FOR ITS EXISTENCE AND ITS SURVIVAL, AND IT'S A COUNTRY THAT HAS BEEN REGULAR TO FIGHT FOR ITS EXISTENCE MILITARILY, AND FROM A , AN EXISTENTIAL STAND OF YOU.

WELL, SOMETIMES IN THE HISTORY OF COUNTRIES, YOU ALSO HAVE A MOMENT, WHICH IS A CRITICAL AND EXISTENTIAL MOMENT FROM A POINT OF VIEW OF, WHAT ARE YOUR VALUES?

IT'S NOT JUST THE BATTLE WITHIN ISRAEL.

IT'S A BATTLE WITHIN THE NATURE OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE AT LARGE.

THE JEWISH PEOPLE WANT TO BE COUNTRIES , OPEN TO THE MUSLIM WORLD AROUND US, OPEN TO SOME OTHER COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD , AND TECHNOLOGY FOR JVP FROM ANY OF US HAS BEEN THE BRIDGE TO A LOT OF COOPERATION , NOT ONLY WITH THE U.S. AND WITH EUROPE AND WITH ASIA, BUT ALSO , NEWLY SO, IN THE MIDDLE EAST, WITH THE UAE, WITH SAUDI ARABIA, WITH JORDAN, WITH EGYPT.

AND FOR US, DEMOCRACY, AND THE OPENNESS OF OUR SOCIETY, IS THE VERY FUNDAMENTAL CONDITION OF INNOVATION, OF CREATIVITY , OF BEING ABLE TO LIVE HERE IN A WAY THAT WE CHOOSE, FREELY, AND NOBODY'S GOING TO GIVE THAT UP.

AND WHAT NETANYAHU WILL FIND MANY OTHERS IT'S JUST LIKE WE'VE BEEN WARRIORS ON THE FRONTLINE .

WE'RE ALSO GOING TO BE WARRIORS IN THE BATTLE FOR DEMOCRACY.

IT'S A BATTLE THAT IS WORTH FIGHTING FOR.

WE WILL DO IT IN PEACEFUL MANNER , BUT THE HIGH-TECH INDUSTRY IN ISRAEL UP AND SAYING TO NETANYAHU, NO TO DICTATORSHIP, AND YES TO DEMOCRACY.

>> I WANT TO GET TO THE OTHER CONFLICT THAT WE'VE BEEN COVERING, AND THAT IS THE INCREASE IN VIOLENCE THAT WE'VE SEEN IN JANINE AND IN THE WEST BANK AS A WHOLE, BUT ONE LAST QUESTION ON THIS JUDICIAL OVERHAUL, AND THAT IS THAT, YOU KNOW, A, PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS BEEN CRITICAL OF IT, BUT B, THERE ARE SOME IN THE OPPOSITION WITHIN ISRAEL WHO SAY THAT HE IS NOT DOING ENOUGH TO PRESSURE THE PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU ENOUGH ON THIS PARTICULAR ISSUE.

WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON THIS?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT NETANYAHU'S GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN SO EXTREME , AND SO HAVE THEIR POLICIES.

NOT ONLY ON THE JUDICIAL OVERHAUL, AND WE'LL TALK ABOUT IT, PERHAPS, IN THE NEXT, IN THE NEXT PART OF THE DISCUSSION, BUT THEY'VE BEEN EXTREME IN MANY WAYS.

YOU TO UNDERSTAND THAT ISRAEL IS A COUNTRY THAT IS SURROUNDED BY COUNTRIES THAT HAVE NOT ALWAYS BEEN EASY TO DEAL WITH.

AND SO THE ABILITY , I, I'M FROM JERUSALEM, WE HAVE INNOVATION IN JERUSALEM NOT ONLY AS CREATING GREAT COMPANIES , AND JVP HAD 40 OF ISRAEL'S LARGEST EXITS, BUT IT'S ALSO A WAY FOR COEXISTENCE.

IN OUR TECHNOLOGY COMPANIES, WE HAVE ARAB INTERPRETERS, WE HAVE ULTRA-ORTHODOX JEWISH ENTREPRENEURS, WE HAVE PEOPLE FROM ALL PARTS OF SOCIETY, AND FOR US , THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS, THE OPENNESS, THE PLURALISM HAS BEEN SO CRUCIAL TO THE ABILITY, NOT ONLY TO INVENT COMPANIES , BUT ALSO, IF YOU REMEMBER, IN JERUSALEM, IT WAS VERY TENSE 15 YEARS AGO.

WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO OPEN THE SOCIETY UP THROUGH INNOVATION AND THROUGH COOPERATION.

AND WHAT NETANYAHU AND HIS GOVERNMENT ARE TRYING TO DO RIGHT NOW IS TO TAKE US BACK 70 OR 80 YEARS , AND NOBODY IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WHICH ONE DEMOCRACY , WHICH RAISED THEIR KIDS ON THE VALUES OF DEMOCRACY, ARE GOING TO AGREE TO THAT.

>> YOU'VE TALKED A LOT HERE, AND FOCUSED REALLY ON THE IMPACT ON THE ECONOMY AND THE TECH SECTOR .

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT UP UNTIL RECENTLY, PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU HAS VIEWED TO BE A CHAMPION OF AND TAKEN CREDIT FOR REVIVING ISRAEL'S ECONOMY OVER THE PAST SEVERAL DECADES.

DO YOU THINK THAT HE UNDERSTANDS THE SEVERE IMPACT ALL OF THIS COULD HAVE NOT ONLY ON THE ECONOMY, BUT EVEN, AS YOU MENTIONED, THE ABRAHAM ACCORDS , AND THAT'S LESS FOCUSED ON THE JUDICIAL REFORMS, BUT ON WHAT I JUST MENTIONED , AND THAT IS THE INCREASED VIOLENCE THAT WE'VE SEEN IN THE WEST BANK AND THOSE EXTREMISTS IN HIS COALITION WHO ARE PUSHING FOR FURTHER SETTLEMENT EXPANSION?

WHERE, WHERE IS HE IN ALL OF THIS, GIVEN THE LARGER-THAN- LIFE FIGURE THAT HE HAS PLAYED IN THIS COUNTRY?

>> WELL, IT'S, IT'S ANYBODY'S GUESS WHERE IS HE, BUT I THINK THAT A LOT OF HIS ACTIONS ARE INFLUENCED BY THE FACT THAT HE IS ON TRIAL, AND THAT HE'S BEEN INDICTED FOR SOME VERY SEVERE FELONIES THAT HE'S ON TRIAL WITH.

AND RIGHT NOW, HE'S ACTING TO SAVE HIS OWN SKIN , NOT JUST RULING THE COUNTRY.

AND I HAVE TO SAY THAT IN ISRAEL, WE HAVE A CUP LOCATED REALITY.

ON ONE HAND, WE NEED TO BE VERY STRONG.

WE'RE FIGHTING AGAINST PEOPLE WHO WERE ATTACKING US WHETHER IT'S FROM A RON, WHETHER IT'S FROM HEZBOLLAH, WHETHER IT'S FROM HAMAS, WHETHER IT'S FROM OTHER TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS, AND WE NEED TO HAVE A VERY FIRM HAND.

I MYSELF WAS PART OF A, YOU KNOW, A SPECIAL FORCES UNIT, AND AS MUCH AS WE'RE, YOU KNOW, WE'RE DOING THINGS IN LIGHT OF THE ECONOMY, WE'RE ALSO, WE NEED TO BE TOUGH IN ISRAEL TO SURVIVE.

ON THE OTHER HAND, ISRAEL HAS BEEN PART OF THE REGION .

MANY OF OUR COMPANIES HAVE BEEN OPERATING IN THE UAE, IN ABU DHABI, IN DUBAI , IN SAUDI ARABIA , COOPERATING MORE SO WITH EGYPT, WITH MOROCCO, WITH JORDAN.

AND WHAT WE WANT IS TO TREAT THE PALESTINIANS, AND TO TREAT THE MODERATE PALESTINIANS , WITH RESPECT .

AND SOME OF THE PEOPLE IN THE RIGHT-WING GOVERNMENT OF NETANYAHU , BY HAVING GESTURES THINGS AGAINST ISLAM AND DISRESPECTFUL TO SOME OF THE OTHER RELIGIONS IN THE REGION, THAT'S REALLY BAD.

JERUSALEM IS A CITY WHICH MANY, MANY RELIGIONS LOVE.

BUT ONE THING THAT WE'VE LEARNED LIVING IN JERUSALEM AND CREATING COMPANIES IN JERUSALEM, THAT YOU NEED TO HAVE RESPECT FOR THE OTHER.

YOU NEED TO HAVE RESPECT FOR THE MUSLIMS, FOR THE CHRISTIANS, THE JEWS.

YOU NEED TO WORK TOGETHER BECAUSE JERUSALEM IS A CITY, JUST LIKE TEL AVIV, IS THE EXCITING CITY OF ISRAEL, JERUSALEM CAN BECOME THE EXCITING CITY OF THE MIDDLE EAST.

BUT THE ONLY WAY TO DO THAT IS WORK WITH RESPECT, ACT AGAINST THOSE THAT ARE TERRORISTS OR TRYING TO CREATE HARM , BUT TREAT WITH RESPECT THOSE MODERATE PEOPLE THAT ARE REALLY TO LIVE WITH US TOGETHER AND TO BE PART OF A REGION , WHICH IS ABOUT FOOD TECH AND AGRI-TECH AND WATER AND HEALTHCARE I.T.

AND CYBERSECURITY AND SYNTAX.

>> CAN I ASK YOU A QUESTION SPECIFICALLY RELATED TO THE PROTESTS THAT WE'VE SEEN NOT ONLY TODAY IN THE STATE OF DISRUPTION, BUT WE'VE SEEN OVER THE PAST FEW MONTHS?

AND THAT IS SOME DISAGREEMENT AS TO WHETHER THESE PROTESTERS SHOULD ALSO BE SPEAKING UP AND RALLYING AGAINST THE OCCUPATION AND SOME OF THE FACTORS THAT YOU JUST LAID OUT FOR OUR VIEWERS ABOUT THE DECISIONS AND THE POLICIES THAT THIS ADMINISTRATION THAT THIS COALITION IS TRYING TO PUSH FORWARD.

DO YOU THINK THESE TWO ISSUES SHOULD BE SEPARATE IN TERMS OF WHAT THESE PROTESTERS ARE OUT ON THE STREETS DEMANDING AND PROTESTING AGAINST, OR DO YOU THINK THAT THESE TWO, IF NOT MORE, SHOULD BE ALL INCOMING?

>> THAT'S A VERY GOOD QUESTION, AND PEOPLE WERE HAVING, ARE HAVING DILEMMAS, BECAUSE THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO COME FROM DIFFERENT POLITICAL VIEWS TO THESE PROTESTS.

ONE THING THAT WE'VE LEARNED, RAISING THE ISRAELI FLAG, WE'RE TAKING A CENTRIST POSITION.

MODERATELY RELIGIOUS TO JOIN US.

WE ARE ALLOWING PEOPLE THAT ARE FROM THE ARAB SECTOR TO JOIN US, THE JEWS, PEOPLE THAT ARE FROM THE RIGHT-WING PARTY OF NETANYAHU ARE JOINING US.

AND THE REASON THAT THEY'RE JOINING US AS WE'RE CREATING A COMMON DENOMINATOR OF DEMOCRACY.

SO WE'RE NOT NECESSARILY GOING INTO ALL THE INTRICACIES OF ISRAEL'S PROBLEMS , INCLUDING THE ONES WITH THE PALESTINIANS.

MANY PEOPLE THINK THAT IT SHOULD BE ALSO ABOUT THE WITH HIS SENSE WITH THE PALESTINIANS.

WHAT WE ARE SAYING, LET'S FIND THE COMMON DENOMINATOR .

DEMOCRACY.

A WAY TO GO FORWARD.

A WAY TO ISRAEL TO BE PART OF THE REGION, NOT AGAINST THE REGION.

A WAY TO ISRAEL TO BE PART OF THE NATIONS AND NOT AGAINST THE NATIONS.

A WAY FOR ISRAEL TO HAVE THE NEXT GENERATION OF ENTREPRENEURS, OF INNOVATION, OF PEOPLE THAT CAN PARTICIPATE FROM ALL PARTS OF THIS COUNTRY , BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT WE NEED.

BUT IN ORDER TO DO THAT, SOMETIMES YOU NEED TO NOT ONLY BUILD THINGS, YOU NEED TO FIGHT FOR WHAT IS RIGHT , AND DEMOCRACY IS WHAT WE'RE DOING , AND WE'RE FINDING MANY PEOPLE THAT ARE NOT LIKE MYSELF, BUT DIFFERENT THAN ME, THAT ARE JOINING US IN THE PROCESS, AND WE'RE PROUD OF THAT.

>> WELL, WE'RE SEEING MASSIVE TURNOUT AS WE BEEN REPORTING.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME TODAY.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> WELL, LET'S RETURN OUT TO THE CUTICLE NATO SUMMIT.

I'M JOINED NOW BY THE U.S.

AMBASSADOR TO NATO, JULIANNE SMITH.

AMBASSADOR, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM FROM VILINIUS.

REALLY APPRECIATE THE TIME.

SO THE NATO COMMUNIQUÉ IS OUT, AND IN IT, MEMBERS ARE PREPARED FOR UKRAINE TO ULTIMATELY JOIN THE ALLIANCE AND PLEDGED TO, QUOTE, EXTEND AN INVITATION FOR UKRAINE TO JOIN WHEN ALLIES AGREE AND CONDITIONS ARE MET.

WE KNOW THAT ALSO IN THIS COMMUNIQUÉ, THE PROCESS HAS BEEN EXPEDITED FOR WHEN THOSE CONDITIONS FINALLY ARE AGREED- UPON, BUT YOU KNOW THAT THIS DREW A SHARP REBUKE FROM PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY, WHO SAID THAT HE WANTS A TIMELINE.

HOW DOES THIS COMMUNIQUÉ , AND WHAT MEMBERS HAVE AGREED TO, DIFFER FROM THE MUCH CRITICIZED READOUT IN 2008, WHICH OPENED THE DOOR AND SAID UKRAINE WOULD BECOME A MEMBER, BUT NEVER LAID OUT A TIMELINE FOR WHEN?

>> Reporter: RIGHT.

SO IN 2008, THE ALLIES AGREED THAT UKRAINE AND GEORGIA WILL BECOME MEMBERS OF THE ALLIANCE, AND THEY SAID AT THAT MOMENT THAT WHAT WOULD BE REQUIRED IS SOMETHING CALLED THE MEMBERSHIP ACTION PLAN .

AND WHAT WE DID TODAY IS WE ACTUALLY TOLD UKRAINE , THANKS TO ALL THE GOOD PROGRESS THAT THEY'VE MADE, WE NO LONGER NEED THE MEMBERSHIP ACTION PLAN, AND THAT HAS AND REMOVED FROM THE TABLE.

SO THAT IS A MAJOR STEP FORWARD FOR UKRAINE AND FOR THE ALLIANCE .

IN TERMS OF A TIMELINE , IT'S VERY TOUGH TO TRY AND AGREE TO SOME SORT OF TIMELINE WHILE THERE IS A WAR RAGING ON UKRAINIAN TERRITORY.

IN ADDITION, EVEN THE UKRAINIANS THEMSELVES WILL TELL THAT THEY NEED TO MAKE FURTHER REFORMS.

THEY'VE MADE GOOD PROGRESS ON A VARIETY OF DEMOCRATIC AND SECURITY SECTOR REFORMS, BUT THEY'LL HAVE TO CONTINUE WORKING IN THAT DIRECTION.

>> SO PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY SAID THAT IT IS UNPRECEDENTED AND ABSURD WHEN A TIMEFRAME IS NOT SET , NEITHER FOR THE INVITATION OR FOR UKRAINE'S MEMBERSHIP, AND THE UKRAINIAN ARGUMENT IS THAT WITHOUT THAT TIMELINE, AND I THINK PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY HAS ACKNOWLEDGED THAT NOW, IN THE MIDST OF A WAR, IS NOT WHEN THEY EXPECT TO BE WELCOMED, BUT THEY DO ALSO SAY THAT WITHOUT THAT TIMELINE, THIS GIVES RUSSIA AN OPPORTUNITY TO CONTINUE FIGHTING THIS WAR FOR AS LONG AS NECESSARY, BECAUSE IT IS NOT IN RUSSIA'S INTEREST, THEN, FOR THE WAR TO END , AND UKRAINE TO CEDE TO NATO.

>> WELL, LOOK, PUTIN ASSUMED, WHEN HE STARTED THIS WAR, THAT HE COULD WAIT US OUT.

THAT THE WEST WOULD LOOK THE OTHER DIRECTION, AND IT WOULD ULTIMATELY LOSE INTEREST IN UKRAINE.

AND THE REALITY IS, WE'RE AT THE 500 OF THIS WAR, AND NO ONE IS GOING ANYWHERE.

THERE ARE LEADERS IN VILINIUS RIGHT NOW COMMITTING TO UKRAINE'S FUTURE , TO ITS MEMBERSHIP IN THE ALLIANCE, AND TO LONG-TERM PRACTICAL SUPPORT , NOT JUST FOR UKRAINE TO PREVAIL ON THE BATTLEFIELD RIGHT NOW, BUT OVER THE LONG TERM TO ENSURE THAT THIS DOESN'T HAPPEN AGAIN.

SO THIS IS A MAJOR STEP FORWARD.

ZELENSKYY IS JOINING US AT THE SUMMIT TOMORROW.

WE ALL LOOK FORWARD TO WELCOMING HIM INTO WHAT WILL BE THE FIRST NATO-UKRAINE COUNSEL.

THAT'S A BIG STEP FORWARD.

NATO IS ELEVATING ITS RELATIONSHIP WITH UKRAINE .

SO WE'RE THRILLED THAT HE'S HERE, AND I THINK THIS SENDS A VERY STRONG SIGNAL TO PRESIDENT PUTIN.

>> WHAT ARE THE LONGER-TERM SECURITY GUARANTEES THAT BOTH THE UNITED STATES AND THE ALLIANCE ARE PREPARED TO OFFER UKRAINE, PERHAPS YOU CAN CODIFY?

>> WELL, SO, THE UNITED STATES HAS BEEN IN DISCUSSION WITH UKRAINE ON A SERIES OF LONG- TERM ASSURANCES THAT, AGAIN, COMMITMENTS TO NOT ONLY HELP UKRAINE TODAY , BUT TO HELP BUILD OUT ITS FORCE IN THE FUTURE SO THAT IT WILL NOT FACE THIS SITUATION AGAIN.

SO THOSE BILATERAL SECURITY ASSURANCES WILL BE FORTHCOMING .

I THINK WE'LL HAVE SOME NEWS FROM THE G7 ON THAT FRONT TOMORROW.

IT'S SEPARATE FROM WHAT NATO IS DOING, BUT IT WORKS TOGETHER IN THAT NATO IS ROLLING OUT A LONGER-TERM RELATIONSHIP WITH UKRAINE AND LIFTING THAT MEMBERSHIP ACTION PLAN, AND THEN INDIVIDUAL COUNTRIES ARE PREPARED TO STEP FORWARD AND MAKE LONG-TERM, BILATERAL COMMITMENTS TO UKRAINE'S SECURITY.

>> YEAH, I BELIEVE FRANCIS SAYS THAT THEY WILL SUPPLY CRUISE MISSILES TO UKRAINE AS WELL.

LET ME TURN TO THE OTHER BIG HEADLINE OUT OF THE SUMMIT, AND THAT IS TURKEY CLEARING THE WAY FOR SWEDEN TO JOIN THE ALLIANCE.

ANY OTHER TIME, THIS WOULD BE THE MAJOR HEADLINE OF THIS MEETING, AND IT, IT IS A BIG STEP FORWARD FOR THE ALLIANCE, BUT IT COMES WITH PRESIDENT ERDOGAN GETTING SOMETHING FROM THE UNITED STATES IN RETURN, AND THAT IS PRESIDENT BIDEN AT LEAST AGREEING TO SUPPLY THE COUNTRY WITH F-16S.

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO PEOPLE WHO VIEW THIS AS A QUID PRO QUO?

>> WELL, THE ISSUES WERE SEPARATE , IN MANY WAYS.

FIRST AND FOREMOST, SWEDEN, FINLAND, AND TURKEY HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THE CONCERNS THAT TURKEY RAISED ABOUT THEIR MEMBERSHIP IN THE ALLIANCE FOR ABOUT A YEAR NOW.

WE JUST GOT FINLAND ACROSS THE FINISH LINE IN APRIL, AND NOW WE HAD THE TERRIFIC NEWS LAST NIGHT THAT TURKEY IS READY TO MOVE FORWARD ON RATIFICATION AND GET THAT DONE, AND WE CAN'T WAIT TO WELCOME SWEDEN AS OUR 32nd MEMBER.

BUT WE ALSO HAVE A SITUATION WHERE YOU'VE HEARD FROM PRESIDENT BIDEN THAT HE SUPPORTS TURKEY'S LONG-TERM MILITARY MODERNIZATION .

HE HAS SUPPORTED THE F-16 PACKAGE FOR TURKEY , AND NOW WE HAVE A SITUATION IN ALSO ADVANCING A DECISION TO LIFT THE TIERED REVIEW, AND WE WILL BE MOVING OUT ON THAT FRONT.

BUT THESE ISSUES ARE, IN MANY WAYS, ON THE ONE HAND ABOUT TURKEYS LONGER-TERM MODERNIZATION , AGAIN, THAT THE PRESIDENT SUPPORTS, AND ABOUT OUR EXCITEMENT AND DETERMINATION TO WELCOME BOTH SWEDEN AND FINLAND INTO THE ALLIANCE.

>> TURKEY, AS WE KNOW, WAS EXPELLED FROM THE F-35 PROGRAM BACK IN 2019 AFTER ACQUIRING RUSSIAN-MADE AIR DEFENSE SYSTEMS.

DID THE U.S. GET A GUARANTEE THAT TURKEY, IN THE FUTURE, WILL NO LONGER MAKE THE STEPS THAT REALLY VIOLATE NATO COMMITMENTS TO MOVE AWAY FROM PURCHASING RUSSIAN EQUIPMENT?

>> WELL, OUR FRIENDS IN CORRUPT HAVE HEARD THE UNITED STATES LOUD AND CLEAR, BUT NOT JUST THE UNITED STATES, REALLY, ALL ALLIES ABOUT THE CONCERNS OF THE PURCHASE OF THE S-400S.

BUT OTHER THAN THAT, BUT IF YOU HAVEN'T BEEN REALLY RELEVANT TO OUR CONVERSATIONS ABOUT SWEDEN AND FINLAND.

WHAT WE WANTED TO SEND AS A MESSAGE THROUGHOUT THE ALLIANCE IS THAT, AND REALLY, AROUND THE WORLD, THAT SWEDEN IS READY TO JOIN THIS ALLIANCE.

IT'S AN INCREDIBLY CAPABLE ALLY.

IT HAS ADDRESSED THE CONCERNS OF OUR FRIENDS IN ON CORRUPT, AND IT IS READY TO BE A SECURITY CONTRIBUTOR TO THE NATO ALLIANCE.

>> WE HEARD PRESIDENT BIDEN AND OTHER MEMBERS ALSO REFERENCING THAT THE OTHER REQUIREMENTS THAT UKRAINE HAS YET TO MEET , AND THAT IS ONE OF THEM FIGHTING CORRUPTION AND OTHER MATTERS IN THE COUNTRY.

THERE'S BEEN SOME CONCERN ABOUT THE DIRECTION THAT TURKEY ITSELF HAS GONE IN.

NOW, TURKEY IS A MEMBER OF NATO.

BUT HAVE THOSE ISSUES BEEN RAISED AS WELL BETWEEN PRESIDENT BIDEN AND PRESIDENT ERDOGAN?

>> WELL, I DON'T WANT TO SHARE THE DETAILS OF THIS SPECIFIC MEETING AND PHONE CALLS THAT HAVE OCCURRED IN RECENT MONTHS AND YEARS BETWEEN PRESIDENT BIDEN AND PRESIDENT ERDOGAN.

I WILL SAY THAT ALL ALLIES MAKE A COMMITMENT TO UPHOLD THE DEMOCRATIC VALUES THAT THE ALLIANCE IS DESIGNED TO PROTECT, AND WE WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO, AND MAKE THAT A KEY FOCUS OF WHAT GOES ON INSIDE THE NATO ALLIANCE.

>> ALBRIGHT, AMBASSADOR JULIANNE SMITH, WE REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR TIME.

I KNOW YOU WERE STUCK IN SOME TRAFFIC EARLIER, WE GOT YOU ON.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> WELL, NOW, A DESPERATE SEARCH IS UNDERWAY FOR THREE MIGRANT SHIPS THAT LEFT SENEGAL MORE THAN TWO WEEKS AGO.

THE BOATS LOST AT SEA ARE CARRYING HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE BETWEEN THEM.

THE SPANISH COAST GUARD DID SAVE 86 PEOPLE FROM A MIGRANT BOAT ON MONDAY, IT WAS NOT ONE OF THE MISSING BOATS.

THIS CURRENT CRISIS IS A TRAGIC REMINDER OF THE DISASTER THAT SAW HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE DIE AFTER A BOAT SANK OFF THE COAST OF GREECE IN JUNE.

MANY FEWER ACCIDENTS LIKE THIS WILL CONTINUE AS POLITICAL INSTABILITY, WAR, AND THE RAPIDLY CHANGING CLIMATE FUEL MIGRATION NUMBERS.

SO WHAT ARE THE SOLUTIONS?

JOINING ME NOW ON THIS IS ALEXANDER BETTS, AN OXFORD PROFESSOR AND HEAD OF THE UNIVERSITY'S REFUGEE STUDIES CENTER.

ALEXANDER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

I'VE JUST LAID OUT A FEW OF THE RECENT CRISIS THAT WE'VE SEEN TRANSPIRE FOR MIGRANTS , AND THE LOSS OF LIFE, IT IS INCALCULABLE AND HORRIFIC.

LAYOUT FOR US, HOW DO YOU ASSESS THE CURRENT SITUATION IN TERMS OF THE MIGRANT CRISIS?

>> WE SEE IN ANOTHER HUMAN TRAGEDY, AND THIS HAS BEEN ONGOING FOR MANY YEARS.

THE INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATION FOR MIGRATION ESTIMATES THAT OVER THE LAST 10 YEARS, ABOUT 30,000 MIGRANTS HAVE LOST THEIR LIVES CROSSING THE MEDITERRANEAN TO EUROPE.

WE SEE SIMILAR SITUATIONS AROUND THE WORLD.

WHAT'S GOING ON BEHIND THIS?

WELL, WE SEE MORE AND MORE PEOPLE FLEEING ACROSS BORDERS, GETTING DESPERATE FOR CIRCUMSTANCES.

MANY AS REFUGEES TO ESCAPE WAR AND PERSECUTION, BUT INCREASING NUMBERS ALSO FLEEING FAILED STATES, FOOD INSECURITY, AND INCREASING CLIMATE CHANGE.

AND COUNTRIES ARE STRUGGLING TO GRAPPLE WITH THESE NEW TYPES OF MOVEMENT , THESE NEW FORMS OF DISPLACEMENT THAT DON'T ALWAYS FIT NEATLY INTO THE TRADITIONAL MIGRATION OR REFUGEE , AS DEFINED AND RECOGNIZED IN INTERNATIONAL LAW.

AND SO THIS MIXED MIGRATION MOVEMENT ARE CHALLENGING FOR GOVERNMENTS .

AS GOVERNMENTS STRUGGLE AND SIMPLY CLOSE THEIR BORDERS AND FAILED TO PROVIDE SAFE ROUTES AND SAFE PASSAGES TO VULNERABLE PEOPLE, THE CONSEQUENCE IS PEOPLE WILL REVERT TO HUMAN SMUGGLING NETWORKS, GANGS, AND THEY LOSE THEIR LIVES IN VERY TRAGIC CIRCUMSTANCES LIKE THESE.

>> THERE'S NO DOUBT THAT THIS ISSUE HAS POLITICAL RAMIFICATIONS IN COUNTRIES NOT ONLY FROM WHERE THESE MIGRANTS COME FROM AND TRY TO ESCAPE, BUT ALSO OTHER COUNTRIES WHERE THEY'RE DESTINED TO GO, AND WE SEEN JUST THE FALLOUT JUST THIS WEEK IN EUROPE WITH THE DUTCH GOVERNMENT DISSOLVING THERE.

THAT HAVING BEEN SAID, ARE YOU CONCERNED AT ALL THAT GIVEN THE OTHER REALLY IMPORTANT ISSUES THAT WE'VE BEEN COVERING, AND THAT IS THE WAR IN UKRAINE, THOUGH THAT HAS CREATED A REFUGEE CRISIS AS WELL, THAT THIS ISSUE, AS A WHOLE, IS NOT THAT IT DESERVES?

>> I THINK SO.

COMPARED TO 2015-16 , WHEN WE HAD THE SO-CALLED REFUGEE CRISIS IN EUROPE , AMID PEOPLE COMING FROM SYRIA OR ACROSS THE AGENCY, WHEN MIGRATION WAS REALLY THE NUMBER ONE ISSUE DOMINATING POLITICS IN THE MEDIA IN EUROPE, IT'S FALLEN DOWN THE AGENDA, AND IT'S OFF THE RADAR OF THE PUBLIC.

BUT WHEN WE SEE PEOPLE DYING , 300 PEOPLE FROM PAKISTAN DROWNING LAST MONTH OFF THE COAST OF GREECE, THREE BOATS MISSING OFF THE CANARY ISLANDS COMING FROM SENEGAL , THIS NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED, AND IT NEEDS POLITICAL LEADERSHIP AND POLITICAL WILL FROM EUROPEAN LEADERS.

WHAT THEY'RE FAILING TO DO IS PUT ON THE TABLE REALISTIC SOLUTIONS , CONCRETE PROPOSALS, AND AGREE ON THEM.

EUROPEAN UNION, FOR A LONG TIME, HAS BEEN DIVIDED ABOUT UPDATING ITS COMMON EUROPEAN ASYLUM SYSTEM.

AROUND THE WORLD, LEADERS ARE REALLY BURYING THEIR HEADS IN THE SAND ABOUT NEW DRIVERS OF DISPLACEMENT.

HOW, IN THE FUTURE, ARE WE GOING TO DRAW THE LINE ABOUT WHO HAS A HUMAN RIGHTS-BASED ENTITLEMENT TO CROSS AN INTERNATIONAL BORDER?

IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT THE REFUGEE DEFINITION.

IT'S ABOUT PEOPLE FLEEING CLIMATE CHANGE, THE PEOPLE LEAVING PAKISTAN WHO WERE FLEEING HYPERINFLATION, SERIOUS ECONOMIC IMPACTS ON THE AVAILABILITY OF BASIC FOOD ITEMS .

THERE ARE VULNERABLE PEOPLE IN DESPERATE SITUATIONS COMING TO EUROPE, AND EUROPEAN LEADERS ARE FAILING TO ADDRESS THE ISSUE.

>> WHAT SHOULD BE THE CONSEQUENCE, OR THE RESPONSE, WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE GREEK MIGRANT BOAT STRATEGY, WITH 700 50 PASSENGERS JUST CRAMMED ONTO THIS VESSEL, AND GREEK AUTHORITIES REALLY FACED CRITICISM FOR HOW THEY RESPONDED.

THERE'S STILL SOME QUESTIONS AS TO HOW THAT ALL TRANSPIRED.

BUT, BUT WHAT IS THE ADEQUATE RESPONSE FROM COUNTRIES THAT, YOU KNOW, ARE JUST OFF THE COAST OF WHERE THESE MIGRANTS ARE TRYING TO LEAD BETTER LIVES, MOVE ON?

>> WELL, THE VERY FIRST THING IS TO RECOGNIZE THAT MIGRANT REGARDLESS OF WHY PEOPLE LEAVE , ALL MIGRANTS HAVE A RIGHT TO LIFE.

SO THE FIRST THING WE HAD TO DO IS ENSURE THAT WE SAVE LIVES, THAT WE INVEST RESOURCES IN RESCUE AT SEA, THAT THE COAST GUARD'S OF THESE COUNTRIES, INCLUDING GREECE, ARE SUFFICIENTLY EQUIPPED AND HAVE THE CAPACITY TO RESCUE PEOPLE FROM BOATS THAT CAPSIZED.

WE ALSO, OF COURSE, NEED TO TRY TO PREVENT SMUGGLING GANGS FROM DEPARTING , FROM SMUGGLING PEOPLE IN DESPERATE SITUATIONS, AND LIMIT THAT AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE.

BUT THE ONLY ALTERNATE WAYS IN WHICH WE'RE GOING TO LIMIT THESE MOVEMENTS ARE TO ADDRESS THE ROOT CAUSES , ADDRESS THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF WAR , CONFLICT, PERSECUTION, CLIMATE CHANGE , THAT'S LEADING MORE AND MORE PEOPLE TO MOVE, AND ENSURE THAT WE HAVE CLEAR , RULE-BASED, SAFE ROUTES BY WHICH PEOPLE CAN ACCESS SECURE, SAFE COUNTRIES , AND THEIR MOST BASIC RIGHTS IN INTERNATIONAL LAW.

UNTIL WE HAVE THAT, PEOPLE WILL RESORT TO DESPERATE AND VERY DANGEROUS JOURNEYS.

THAT'S NOT A CASE OF HAVING TO HAVE AN OPEN BORDERS POLICY.

ABSOLUTELY NOT.

BUT IT IS A CASE THAT, AT THE MOMENT, THE ONLY WAY MANY PEOPLE CAN SEEK ASYLUM , PEOPLE WHO ARE REFUGEES, PEOPLE WHO HAVE FLED WARS LIKE THE WAR IN SUDAN, CAN ACTUALLY GET TO EUROPE, IS BY USING SMUGGLING NETWORKS.

AND THAT'S BECAUSE MORE AND MORE COUNTRIES IN EUROPE AND AROUND THE WORLD ARE MAKING SEEKING ASYLUM, SEEKING SANCTUARY, EFFECTIVELY ILLEGAL.

FOR INSTANCE, IN MY COUNTRY, THE UNITED KINGDOM, THIS LEGISLATION FOR SO-CALLED ILLEGAL MIGRATION BILL, WHICH IS EFFECTIVELY PROPOSING TO MAKE IT ILLEGAL TO COME TO BRITAIN AS AN ASYLUM SEEKER, AS A REFUGEE, AND SAY, I WANT TO SEEK SANCTUARY IN THIS COUNTRY .

BECAUSE IT'S SUGGESTING THAT UNLESS YOU HAVE A VISA, YOU CAN'T COME TO THE COUNTRY AND CLAIM ASYLUM.

NOW, PEOPLE WHO FLEE WAR AND PERSECUTION DON'T ALWAYS HAVE ACCESS TO THE MEANS TO GET A VISA, OR ADEQUATE PAPERWORK.

THE IDEA IN INTERNATIONAL IS YOU SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO FLEE FOR YOUR LIFE ACROSS THE BORDER IF YOU'RE IN VERY DESPERATE CIRCUMSTANCES, AND AT LEAST MAKE A CLAIM TO A COUNTRY.

WE NEED THE SAFE ROUTES THAT ALLOW PEOPLE TO ACCESS DUE PROCESS AND A LEGAL ROUTE TO SAFE AND SECURE MIGRATION >> YEAH.

THESE LAWS ARE JUST ANTIQUATED AND REALLY NOT EFFICIENT.

YOU MENTIONED SUDAN NEARLY 2.8 MILLION PEOPLE HAVE ALREADY FLED THAT WAR-TORN COUNTRY.

AND YOU MENTIONED CLIMATE CHANGE.

INTERNATIONAL LAW CURRENTLY DOES NOT GIVE PROTECTION TO THOSE WHO ARE FLEEING DUE TO CLIMATE CHANGE, AND WE KNOW THAT NUMBER IS WELL ABOVE 1 BILLION PEOPLE OVER THE LAST DECADE.

WE SEEN A DOUBLING IN THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE.

SO --BEING DISPLACED BY CLIMATE CHANGE.

SO OBVIOUSLY THESE ARE REALLY IMPORTANT ISSUES THAT NEED TO BE ADDRESSED.

ALEXANDER BETTS, IN FOR YOUR TIME TODAY AND YOUR EXPERTISE.

>>> WELL NOW, A BIT OF A GEARSHIFT AS WE TURN TO WEDDINGS.

THE MILESTONE EVENT OFTEN LEAVING COUPLES WITH THEIR HEARTS FULL, BUT THEIR WALLETS LATE.

THE AVERAGE AMERICAN, GET THIS, SPENDS AROUND $30,000 ON THEIR WEDDING, AND OUR NEXT GUEST SAYS THEY ARE ONLY GETTING MORE EXTRAVAGANT.

IN HER RECENT ARTICLE, THE FAKE POOR BRIDE, AWARD-WINNING AUTHOR REVEALS THE WORLD BEHIND THIS LUCRATIVE INDUSTRY, AND SHE JOINED MICHELLE MARTIN TO TALK ABOUT HER EXPERIENCE AS AN EX-WEDDING PLANNER.

>> THANKS.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> SOME PEOPLE MAY KNOW YOU AS THE AUTHOR OF THE NOVEL , BUT I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE KNOW YOU FROM YOUR WORK IN THE ATLANTIC.

YOU'RE KIND OF TRANSIENT.

ANALYSIS OF RACE AND CLASS AND POLITICS .

OKAY, SO LUXURY WEDDING PLANNER.

LIKE, HOW -- HOW DID THAT, HOW DID THAT HAPPEN?

>> WELL, I THINK MY CLIENTS ARE WONDERING THE SAME THING.

THEY'RE SORT OF ALL SCRATCHING THEIR HEADS, BEING LIKE, I GUESS THE STILL WATERS RANDY.

NO, I THINK IT WAS A GREAT POSITION TO SORT OF OBSERVE , OBSERVE CLASS IN AMERICA, ABSORBED SORT OF DIFFERENT SOCIAL STRATA OF LIFE, AND I HAD JUST SORT OF BEEN --I WOULDN'T SAY STEWING IN MY OWN JUICES, BUT KIND OF CEMENTING A LOT OF OBSERVATIONS OVER THE YEARS.

AND IN THE NOVEL GAVE ME A CHANCE TO KIND OF PUT THAT ALL INTO PLAY, AND THEN THE ATLANTIC HAS GIVEN ME A LOT MORE ROOM TO KIND OF JUST KEEP CHEWING ON THINGS.

AND WE THOUGHT THIS WOULD BE A FUN WAY TO MELD MY OLD LIFE WITH MY NEW LIFE.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS I KIND OF REALIZED IN THINKING ABOUT YOUR PIECE IS THAT NOWADAYS, MAYBE PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT JOB.

THEY UNDERSTAND THAT THERE IS A PERSON WHO DOES THAT JOB, OR, OR A TEAM.

BUT I THINK WHEN YOU STARTED OUT, IT WAS KIND OF A HIDDEN -- >> UP WITH A HIDDEN CAREER.

I THINK I SAY IN THE PEACE, MY FAMILY, WHO WAS VERY WORKING- CLASS AND LITERALLY HAD WHAT WAS CALLED A FOOTBALL WEDDING, WAS LIKE, I JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU DO.

AND THEY COULDN'T EVEN UNDERSTAND THE KIND OF LEVELS OF WEALTH OF THE PEOPLE THAT I WAS WORKING FOR, THAT, YOU KNOW, AGAIN, THE FIXATION WAS ON --BUT THEY COULD BUY A HOUSE WITHOUT MONEY.

AND IT'S LIKE, THEY HAVE SEVERAL HOUSES.

HOW DO I EXPLAIN THAT TO MY GRANDMOTHER.

IT WAS SORT OF A NEW PROFESSION, AND WE SORT OF RODE THAT WAVE, AND IT WAS A LOT OF FUN.

AND THEN AT A CERTAIN POINT, IT BECAME UN-FUN.

I WROTE ABOUT THAT A LITTLE BIT IN THE PIECE.

I THINK AS OUR POLITICS --IT WAS FUNNY.

AS OUR POLITICS CAME --CAME MORE TO THE FOREFRONT OF THE COUNTRY, IT BECAME HARDER TO SORT OF SEPARATE WHO YOU ARE AS A PERSON FROM WHO YOU ARE IS A PROFESSIONAL IN SOME SENSE.

YEAH.

>> WHO YOU ARE.

YOU COME FROM, AS YOU SAID, A WORKING-CLASS BACKGROUND.

I'M JUST CURIOUS ABOUT, LIKE, THAT FIRST WEDDING THAT YOU DID, WHEN YOU REALIZE, OH, THIS IS DIFFERENT THAN THE WAY WE DO THINGS IN MY FAMILY.

>> THERE'S A WEDDING STRATA.

THE WEDDING STRATA REPLICATE OUR CLASS STRATA, RIGHT?

LIKE, WHERE PEOPLE ARE CHARGING A DIFFERENT PRICE POINTS, AND THE WEDDINGS HAVE DIFFERENT BUDGETS.

REMEMBER WHEN I FINALLY REALIZED, OKAY, WE'RE IN A DIFFERENT FIELD HERE, WAS WHEN THERE WAS A SEPARATE PERSON INVOLVED THAT DEALT WITH THE MONEY VERSUS ANYBODY INVOLVED SO THE PARENTS WERE PAYING, THE BRIDE WAS MAKING A LOT OF DECISIONS, YOU KNOW, THE MOM MIGHT'VE BEEN CONSULTED, BUT THEN YOU TALK TO A COMPLETELY SEPARATE ENTITY THAT ACTUALLY REVIEW THE CHECKS AND DEALT WITH THE BUDGET , AND YOU SUDDENLY UNDERSTOOD THAT THIS IS NOT JUST A FAMILY.

IT'S SORT OF A SMALL CORPORATION.

AND I THINK FOR A LOT OF COUPLES, JUST, THE AVERAGE COUPLE IN AMERICA OR ANYWHERE, HONESTLY, IN THE WORLD, REALLY, THE MONEY IS WHAT MAKES THE WEDDING PLANNING STRESSFUL.

>> THIS IS WHERE WE HAVE TO HAVE SOME FUN.

WHAT ARE SOME OF THE CRAZY REQUESTS?

>> I TALKED ABOUT THE STORY ABOUT WANTING TO HAVE A PONY MAKE AN APPEARANCE SO THAT IT COULD BE GIFTED TO THE BRIDE ON THE FLOOR DURING THE FATHER OF THE BRIDE'S TOAST.

THAT WAS ONE OF MY FAVORITES, BECAUSE IT INVOLVED ANIMAL WRANGLING.

>> HE WANTED TO GIVE HER A PONY BECAUSE?

>> HE FELT LIKE, YOU KNOW WHAT?

SINK.

LET'S GIVE HER EVERYTHING SHE EVER WANTED.

EVER SINCE SHE WAS A KID, SHE ALWAYS WANTED A PONY.

AND SO WE SORT OF BRING OUT THIS PONY .

AND IT WAS REALLY FANTASTIC, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, NO ONE WAS EXPECTING IT.

I MEAN, WE'VE HAD, LIKE --I MEAN, SOME OF THE MORE NORMAL REQUESTS ARE, LIKE, HAVING, LIKE, ROCK STARS PERFORMING EVENTS, WHICH IS LIKE A FUNNY SIDE HELSEL THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T REALIZE, LIKE, MUSICIANS WILL DO.

I MEAN, WE'VE HAD, A LOT OF THE TIME, SOME OF THE HARDER REQUESTS WERE ACTUALLY TRYING TO MAKE, LIKE, CULTURALLY APPROPRIATE THINGS HAPPEN IN SPACES WHERE THEY WERE DESIGNED TO.

SO IT'S LIKE, HAVING A FIRE DURING A HINDU CEREMONY.

LIKE, IT WAS LIKE --AND NEGOTIATING TO BE ABLE TO HAVE OPEN FLAME.

REALLY, A LOT OF THE TIME, THE REQUESTS WERE NOT SO MUCH STRANGE AS THEY WERE A CULTURAL TO THE PLACE WHERE THE EVENT WAS MAYBE HAPPENING, OR MAYBE I GOT FRAUD BOILED INTO THINKING THAT NOTHING WAS STRANGE.

THAT'S ALSO POSSIBLE.

>> ONE OF MY FAVORITE STORIES THAT YOU TALKED ABOUT WITH THE FAKE POOR BRIDE.

>> YES.

>> TELL ME ABOUT THE FAKE POOR BRIDE.

WHAT HAPPENED THERE?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT THERE AMOUNT --IN THE IMMEDIATE AFTERMATH OF THE RECEPTION, A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF FEAR OF SEEMING LIKE A WEALTHY PERSON.

SO WHAT HAPPENS IS SHE'S GETTING MARRIED, AND SHE DOES NOT WANT PEOPLE --NO ONE KNOWS SHE HAS MONEY.

AND SHE HAS REAL MONEY, YOU KNOW?

LIKE, HER MOTHER HAD THROWN ANOTHER SISTER A WEDDING, AND I THINK PLASTERED THE COMEDY BALLROOM OF ONE OF NEW YORK'S HOTTEST HOTELS, LIKE, WITH ORGANS, RIGHT?

AND SO WE KNEW WHAT THE MOTHER COULD DO LEFT TO HER OWN DEVICES, AND THE DAUGHTER WAS JUST LIKE, IF THAT HAPPENS, EVERYONE WILL KNOW.

AND WHAT THEY DECIDED WAS THAT THEY WERE GOING TO HIRE ME.

WHAT THE BRIDE DIDN'T UNDERSTAND IS THAT SHE THOUGHT I WAS BEING HIRED TO KEEP HER MOTHER UNDER CONTROL.

BECAUSE HER MOM WAS ACTUALLY PAYING ME, I WAS ACTUALLY BEING TAUGHT, LIKE, TO GET WHATEVER THE MOTHER WANTED WHILE MAKING THE BRIDE THINK IT DIDN'T COST ANYTHING, AND THAT IT WASN'T GOING TO BE OUT OF HAND.

AND IT WAS A FUNNY STORY ABOUT CLASS, BECAUSE THE BRIDE'S MOTHER ALSO HAD BEEN RAISED WITH NOT A LOT OF MONEY.

AND IT KIND OF MARRIED INTO A SITUATION WHERE THEIR WEALTH INCREASED AS THEIR YEARS WENT ON.

AND THE BRIDE HAD ALWAYS BEEN RAISED WITH MONEY.

AND SO IT WAS ALMOST AS THOUGH THE MOTHER OF THE BRIDE WAS LIKE, WHY DO YOU SHUN THIS THING THAT I'VE WANTED MY WHOLE LIFE?

AND THE BRIDE HERSELF WAS LIKE, WHY DOES THIS HOLD SO MUCH VALUE TO YOU, THAT PEOPLE KNOW THAT WE HAVE IT?

AND I WAS JUST THE PERSON CAUGHT IN THE MIDDLE.

I WAS REALLY AMUSED, HONESTLY, IN THE PROCESS, BECAUSE I WAS TOLD TO JUST TELL HER THAT ANY UPGRADE WAS ALREADY INCLUDED IN THE CONTRACT.

BUT I WAS KIND OF AMUSED BY THAT IDEA THAT, LIKE, YOU'D SAY, LIKE, BUT WHAT ABOUT THE LITTLE BABY LAMB CHOPS INSTEAD OF PIGS IN A BLANKET?

THAT COSTS MORE!

AND YOU'RE LIKE, NO!

IT'S ALREADY INCLUDED IN THE CONTRACT.

I WAS SORT OF HER OWN, LIKE, EITHER GULLIBILITY OR LACK OF AWARENESS OF THE ACTUAL COST OF THINGS, LIKE, OR COMMON SENSE ABOUT COST OF THINGS, WAS SORT OF AMUSING TO ME, AND KIND OF UNDERMINES TO HOW LITTLE SHE ACTUALLY DID HAVE TO THINK ABOUT MONEY IN REALITY, EVEN THOUGH SHE WANTED TO MAKE SURE >> HOW DID THEY COMMUNICATE TO YOU THAT BUDGET WAS NOT AN ISSUE, THAT MONEY WAS NO OBJECT?

DID THEY ACTUALLY COME RIGHT OUT AND SAY IT?

>> THEY JUST SAID THAT, YES.

THEY JUST SAID THAT.

AND OFTEN TIMES, YOU KNOW, AND I TALK ABOUT THIS TOO.

MOST OFTEN, IF MONEY WAS AN ISSUE, LIKE, IT WAS BECAUSE THEY WERE GIVEN A LUMP SUM AND HAD TO DO A FEW THINGS WITH IT.

SO THEY'D BE GIVEN A FIGURE FOR --BUT WAIT, DID YOU SAY -- WAIT.

CAN I JUST PROCESSED THAT?

A SEVEN-FIGURE SUM?

>> YES.

YES.

A SEVEN-FIGURE SUM , AND WITH THIS SEVEN-FIGURE SUM, THEY WOULD NEED TO GET AN APARTMENT AND HAVE A WEDDING.

AND SO THE BATTLE WAS NOT SO MUCH THAT THERE WASN'T MORE TO POTENTIALLY GET.

THE BATTLE WAS, THEY WANTED TO BE RESPECTFUL AND STICK WITHIN THE SUM, BUT THEY WANTED A GREAT HOUSE, BUT THEY ALSO WANTED A GREAT WEDDING.

SO THE FIGHTING WAS LESS BECAUSE OF A LACK OF RESOURCES THAN IT WAS INTERNAL ANGST TO DO EVERYTHING THAT THEY WANTED WHILE STILL SEEMING, LIKE, RESPECTFUL TO THIS KIND GESTURE OF THEIR PARENTS.

IT WAS A FASCINATING TIME TO JUST SEE HOW TORTURED, IRONICALLY, PEOPLE COULD BE ABOUT THEIR OWN PRIVILEGE , WHICH IS HILARIOUS, BECAUSE IN TURN, THAT PRIVILEGES TORTURING OTHER BRIDES THAT HAVE LESS, BECAUSE THEY WANT TO HAVE ALL THESE THINGS.

>> SO OBVIOUSLY, LET'S JUST KEEP IT REAL.

IT'S REALLY EASY TO, LIKE, NOT LIKE THESE PEOPLE.

I MEAN, YOU'RE LIKE, WOULD YOU MAKE AN INTERESTING TURN IN YOUR PIECE WHERE YOU ACTUALLY KIND OF STAND UP FROM AN EXTRANET, YOU KNOW?

TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

AND I WAS SURPRISED THAT THEY, YOU KNOW, COMING FROM YOU, AS I SAID, YOU ARE VERY KIND OF A TRANSIENT OBSERVER OF, YOU KNOW, RACE AND CLASS AND HOW IT FUNCTIONS, AND, YOU KNOW, ALL THE UNFAIRNESS IS THAT CAN ATTACH TO THAT.

BUT YOU ACTUALLY MAKE A TURN , AND YOU ACTUALLY STAND UP FOR THE EXTRA LIST.

SO MAKE YOUR CASE.

MAKE YOUR CASE.

>> I'LL TELL YOU WHY.

I THINK I ALWAYS ROOT FOR THE LITTLE GUY, AND WE LOVE TO SAY HOW MUCH WE LOVE SMALL BUSINESS IN AMERICA IN PARTICULAR, AND YET THERE ARE VERY, VERY FEW INDUSTRIES THAT ACTUALLY SUPPORT SMALL BUSINESS.

AND WHEN JEFF BEZOS, KING OF AMAZON, FINALLY HAS HIS WEDDING, HE WILL BE FORCED TO SUPPORT SMALL BUSINESSES, BECAUSE THERE IS NO AMAZON AT WEDDINGS.

IT IS, LIKE, ONE MOM-AND-POP OPERATION AFTER ANOTHER THAT ALL, LIKE, RETAIN, LIKE, YOU KNOW, MOST OF THESE PEOPLE GOT THROUGH COVID WITH PVP LOANS, IF THEY COULD QUALIFY, IF THEY WERE EVEN BIG ENOUGH FOR THAT.

AND SO YOU REALLY SEE PEOPLE WEAR, IT'S LIKE PEOPLE THAT HAVE ARTISTIC INCLINATIONS, THAT COULD BE PART-TIME WORK.

I MEAN, LIKE, THAT INDUSTRY EMPLOYS SO MANY PEOPLE THAT NEED SIDE PUZZLES AND SUPPLEMENTAL INCOME, BECAUSE YOU CAN WORK ON A SATURDAY, YOU COULD JUST WORK ON THE WEEKENDS AND KEEPING A JOB.

I USE TO EMPLOY SO MANY TEACHERS THAT NEEDED EXTRA MONEY THAT WERE TRYING TO SAVE FOR A DOWN PAYMENT.

TO ME, IT'S LIKE, ONE OF THE FEW FLEXIBLE INDUSTRIES THAT ALLOWS PEOPLE , WOMEN, IMMIGRANTS TO WORK AROUND THEIR CIRCUMSTANCES , AND ALSO HAVE A CREATIVE OUTLET.

AND IF YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE MONEY AND PUMP IT INTO THE ECONOMY, I CAN'T THINK OF A BETTER WAY TO DO THAT.

RATHER THIS THAN GIVING MONEY TO A CORPORATE CONGLOMERATE, YOU KNOW?

LIKE, LET ME SEE YOU SUPPORT 40 TO 50 SMALL BUSINESSES WHO ARE EACH EMPLOYING 20 TO 40 PEOPLE.

AND I TALK ABOUT IT AT THESE KIND OF EVENTS.

IT'S NOT JUST EVEN A WEEKEND.

IT'S LIKE YOU'RE EMPLOYING THEM FOR, LIKE, UPWARDS OF TWO WEEKS.

>> YOU HIGHLIGHT SOME OF THE CRAFTSPEOPLE, THE SMALL BUSINESS PEOPLE WHO MAKE THESE EXTRAVAGANZAS HAPPEN.

SO, SO TWO THINGS HERE.

LIKE, TELL ME MORE ABOUT THESE FOLKS , AND WHY WAS IT SO IMPORTANT FOR YOU TO WRITE ABOUT THEIR WORK?

>> OH, I MEAN, IT FELT SO EXCITING TO ACTUALLY GIVE THEM SPACE, YOU KNOW?

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I --I LEARNED EVERYTHING I KNOW, AND I KNOW A LOT ABOUT FLOWERS, BUT GETTING UP AT 5:00 IN THE MORNING AND GOING TO THE FLOWER MARKET IN MANHATTAN THAT WAS COMPLETELY POWERED BY , THAT TIME, THIS WAS IN THE ODDS MEXICAN AND SALVATORI AND IMMIGRANTS, AND LITERALLY, PEOPLE WITH --IF I WAS THERE AT 5:00, THEY WERE THERE AT 3:00, RIGHT, UNPACKING THINGS FROM HOLLAND, UNPACKING THINGS FROM LATIN AMERICA, FROM ROSE GARDEN, FROM TWO LIT FARMS, AND KNOWING EVERYTHING ABOUT THESE BLOOMS, BECAUSE THEY'VE BEEN IN THIS BUSINESS.

THEY CAME TO THIS COUNTRY, SOMEBODY ELSE BROUGHT THEM FROM THEIR COUNTRY , BROUGHT THEM INTO THE BUSINESS.

THEY WILL BRING SOMEONE ELSE INTO THE BUSINESS.

AND SO YOU'RE REALLY SEEING -- IT'S NOT JUST --IT'S MANUAL DIFFICULT LABOR, BUT IT'S ALSO LABOR THAT NEEDS SOME EXPERTISE AND SOME SKILL, AND I JUST LOVE THE IDEA THAT I WAS ABLE TO SORT OF HIGHLIGHT THAT, BECAUSE I THINK YOU CAN SEE A PHOTO AND NOT REALIZE I'M A PHOTO OF A BEAUTIFUL TENT, AND NOT REALIZE THAT, LIKE, YOU KNOW, 40 YOUNG GUYS WORKING THEIR WAY THROUGH THE SUMMER TO TRY TO PAY FOR THEIR FIRST YEAR OF COLLEGE, THAT'S THEIR SUMMER JOB AS A RECOMPENSE ALL SUMMER LONG, RIGHT?

THEY'RE GOING TO BE, LIKE, LITERALLY TOILING.

AND I THINK AT A TIME WHERE LABOR IS SO OFTEN RENDERED INVISIBLE, IT WAS JUST A REALLY BEAUTIFUL THING TO BE ABLE TO, LIKE, REMIND PEOPLE THAT IT'S ACTUALLY HUMAN HANDS THAT MAKE ALL THAT STUFF HAPPEN.

>> DO YOU SEE PEOPLE WHO HAVE KIND OF LESS RESOURCE BEING KIND OF INFLUENCED BY WHAT'S GOING ON AT, LIKE, THE TOP OF THE COMEDY, THE, THE FOOD CHAIN , AS IT WERE?

>> YEAH.

YOU KNOW, I DO THINK THAT THERE'S A DESIRE TO SORT OF COMPETE WITH THE JONESES, AND AS I SAID, WHAT'S HAPPENING IS EVERY YEAR, LIKE, HOW DO YOU COMPETE WITH THE JONESES WHEN THE JONESES INVESTED IN FACEBOOK EARLY ON, RIGHT?

BUT I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS, WHY I ALWAYS BUCK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT TREND IS , I DON'T -- THERE'S A TENDENCY TO FEEL LIKE IT'S VENDORS SORT OF TAKING PEOPLE FOR A RIDE, AND IN REALITY, WHAT IS IS IS ITS SMALL BUSINESSES TRYING TO OPERATE.

THERE'S JUST NOT QUITE AS MUCH OF AN INCENTIVE, IF YOU HAVE A LIMITED INVENTORY , TO CATER TO SORT OF THE MID-OR THE LOWER TIERS OF THE MARKET.

AND SO I THINK , AS THERE HAS BEEN MORE AFFLUENCE AND MORE WILLING TO SPEND AMONG THE AFFLUENT, MORE VENDORS ARE KIND OF CATERING TO THAT MARKET SHARE.

AND SO IT IS --I THINK THERE'S A BIT OF A CRUNCH IF A COUPLE IS LOOKING TO HAVE A QUOTE UNQUOTE INSTAGRAM WERE THE WEDDING TO GET THOSE KINDS OF PEOPLE WORKING ON YOUR EVENT AT A PRICE THAT FITS YOUR BUDGET.

>> YEAH, SAY MORE ABOUT THAT, IF YOU WOULD.

I MEAN, YOU WERE SAYING THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT, THAT SURVEYS FOUND THAT SOME 30% TO 45% OF COUPLES REPORT TAKING ON CREDIT CARD OR OTHER DEBT TO PAY FOR THEM, AND THE NOW THERE'S THIS WHOLE NEW THING CALLED WEDDING LOANS , WHICH ARE, WHICH CAN CARRY INTEREST RATES AS HIGH AS 30%.

LIKE, YOU THINK IT'S --I HATE TO USE THIS WORD, TRICKLE-DOWN EFFECT OF PEOPLE SEEING THIS KIND OF HYPER LUXURY , NOW FEELING LIKE THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO HAVE?

>> YEAH, I THINK IT'S A TWOFOLD THING.

I THINK IT'S A TRICKLE-DOWN AS BEING HYPER LUXURY, BUT IT'S ALSO, IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT, THE ARBITER OF MEDIA, LIKE, WE USED TO HAVE MAGAZINES, LET'S SAY, THAT REALLY WERE EDITORIALIZED AND HAD SOME INFORMATION KIND OF COMING IN.

THEY WOULD EDUCATE A BRIDE, A POTENTIAL BRIDE, ABOUT, LIKE, WHAT THINGS COST.

AND NOW IT'S SORT OF, LIKE, LOTS OF SENSORY INFORMATION.

LIKE, KIM KARDASHIAN'S FLOWER WALL, AND BEING LIKE, I WANT THAT, WITH NO UNDERSTANDING THAT, LIKE, OKAY, YOU KNOW, YOU USE TO SEE IN FASHION MAGAZINES, HERE'S A LOOK, AND HERE'S A LOOK FOR LESS.

BRIDAL MAGAZINES USE TO DO THAT FOR PEOPLE, AND NOW THAT SORT OF DOESN'T EXIST.

SO I THINK WHAT'S HAPPENING IS, THERE'S A LOT OF PENDING VISUALS THAT COME ACROSS IN SOCIAL MEDIA, AND, YOU KNOW, IN REALITY TELEVISION, AND THERE'S NOT A LOT OF EDUCATION.

SO THE GAP BETWEEN WHAT YOU DECIDE THAT YOU WANT IN THIS VERY EMOTIONAL TIME, WHERE EVERYTHING IS A LITTLE BIT DRIVEN BY GETTING LIKES --I TALK ABOUT HOW THERE'S A NEW SERVICE THAT EMERGED CALLED SOCIAL MEDIA MANAGEMENT FOR WEDDINGS, RIGHT?

AND ONE OF THE THINGS THEY TALK ABOUT IS, THEY'LL HELP YOU DEVELOP A STRATEGY.

AND I REMEMBER BEING LIKE, WAIT, A STRATEGY FOR WHAT?

IT'S JUST WEDDING PHOTOS.

BUT THEIR SLOGANS, ONE OF THE COMPANY'S SLOGAN IS THE DAY PLANNING SHOULD BE SEEN BY THE WORLD.

RIGHT?

SO IT'S REALLY, IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE PARTY ANYMORE.

IT'S ABOUT WHAT THE AFTERMATH, AND WHAT THE RECEPTION OF THOSE IMAGES WILL BE LIKE.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK IT MEANS THAT THERE IS THIS OBSESSION NOT JUST WITH, YOU KNOW , OVER- THE-TOP NETS, BUT ALSO, THEN, BROADCASTING IT TO THE WORLD?

YOU THINK THAT MEANS SOMETHING?

>> I THINK THAT IT ACTUALLY IS A STRANGE FOLD-OVER FROM KIND OF A TIME FREE FEMINISM WHERE THE WEDDING WAS KIND OF THE WOMEN'S LAST HURRAH, AND IT EMERGED AS PART OF, LIKE, LIKE , COMING OUT OF WORLD WAR II, LIKE, THE HISTORY OF WEDDINGS AND WEDDINGS BEING A PHENOMENON, THEY BECAME, LIKE, A WAY THAT SHOWING --FOR PARENTS TO SHOW THAT THEY WERE PART OF THE MIDDLE CLASS, BUT IT WAS ALSO SORT OF THE LAST THING THAT A WOMAN WOULD DO ON HER OWN BEFORE SHE THEN BECAME, LIKE, A MISSES TO SOMEONE.

AND THEN, AS BRIDAL CULTURE KIND OF EMERGED, AND THIS IDEA THAT, YOU KNOW, I TALK IN THE PIECE ABOUT THE NOT AND HOW IT TURNS, LIKE, A DAY INTO SORT OF A PERIOD OF TIME, BECAUSE YOU HAVE THESE LITTLE COMMUNITIES , AND BEING A BRIDE BECAME AN IDENTITY, AND IT WAS AN IDENTITY THAT CAME WITH A LOT OF PERMISSIONS, RIGHT?

TO HAVE, LIKE, BAD MOODS, TO HAVE LITTLE OUTBURSTS.

AND I THINK THAT IT ALL SORT OF SNOWBALLED INTO , EVEN THOUGH, MAYBE, THOSE SAME TROPES ARE NECESSARILY NECESSARY, YOU KNOW, EVEN COMING YOU THINK ABOUT IT, THE WEDDING GOWN, IT WAS MODELED AFTER QUEEN VICTORIA.

A WAY TO BE A QUEEN FOR A DAY.

BUT NOW IT'S OUT OF YOUR CHANCE TO BE A CELEBRITY FOR A DAY.

>> I'M GOING TO PUT YOU ON THE SPOT.

YOU SHARED SOME PERSONAL NEWS IN THE PIECE ABOUT HOW YOU ACTUALLY WENT THROUGH A DIVORCE WHILE YOU WERE DOING WEDDING PLANNING, AND SO THAT HAS TO HAVE BEEN HARD.

BUT, OKAY.

TRUTH.

IF YOU WERE TO GET MARRIED AGAIN, AND I DON'T KNOW IF YOU HAVE, WOULD YOU HIRE A WEDDING PLANNER?

>> I THINK IF I WERE TO GET MARRIED AGAIN, AND I HAVE NOT, I THINK WE WOULD RUN TO THE COURTHOUSE AND HAVE A NICE LITTLE LUNCH WITH 10 FRIENDS AFTERWARDS.

LIKE, I DON'T THINK --I DON'T THINK I COULD DO IT.

AND IN THE MEAN I DON'T WANT TO SUPPORT SMALL BUSINESS.

ENJOY IT.

YEAH.

I KNOW TOO MUCH TO ENJOY IT AGAIN.

AND I REALLY THINK WE WOULD SPEND THE WHOLE TIME WORRYING ABOUT HOW HARD EVERYBODY ELSE WAS WORKING AND NOT NECESSARILY ENJOYING THE THING.

>> THANKS SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS .ORG/TRAN02.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING AMANPOUR & COMPANY ON PBS.

JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.

>>