.

>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON", COMING TO YOU FROM THE BOSTON PUBLIC LIE BREYER, CONSTITUTIONAL S C HCONSTITUTIONAL SOLAR HARVARD'S LAURENCE TRIBE AND FORMER FEDERAL JUDGE NANCY GERTNER JOIN ME TO WADE THROUGH LATEST FROM THE JANUARY 6TH SELECT COMMITTEE'S EVIDENCE AGAINST DONALD TRUMP AND OTHERS.

>> ON THE SEVENTH DAY OF HEARINGS, THE LAWMAKERS DRILLED DONE ON JUST HOW MANY PEOPLE IN THE PRESIDENT'S CIRCLE WERE READY TO THROW IN THE TOWEL IN THE WEEKS BEFORE THE FORMER PRESIDENT INCITED RIOTERS TO ATTACK THE CAPITOL, AND THEY TOLD HIM THAT, OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

>> DID I BELIEVE HE SHOULD CONCEDE THE ELECTION AT A POINT IN TIME?

YES, I DID.

>> DECEMBER 14TH WAS THE DATE THE STATES CERTIFIED THEIR VOTES AND SENT THEM TO CONGRESS.

AND IN MY VIEW, THAT WAS THE END OF THE MATTER.

>> I THINK IT WAS MY, MY SENTIMENT PROBABLY PRIOR AS WELL,.

>> I BELIEVE AT THAT POINT THAT THE MEANS FOR HIM TO PURSUE LITIGATION WAS PROBABLY CLOSED.

>> Braude: SO TRUMP DID WHAT ANYONE WOULD DO, AND DREAMED UP A SCHEME TO HAVE ISSUE A NEW THE EXECUTIVE ORDER TO HAVE THE SECRETARY OF STATE TO SEIZE VOTING MACHINES AND APPOINT 0 VOTE, ATTORNEY AND PROFESSIONAL VOTER FRAUD CONSPIRACY THEORIST SIDNEY POWELL AS A SPECIAL COUNSEL WITH THE POWER POWER TO CHARGE PEOPLE WITH CRIMES OVER NONEXISTENT ELECTION INTERFERENCE, HERE IS WHAT FORMER WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL PATH CIPOLLONE SAID HE TOLD THE PRESIDENT ABOUT THAT PLAN.

>> I WAS VEHEMENTLY OPPOSED.

I DIDN'T THINK SHE SHOULD HAVE BEEN APPOINTED TO ANYTHING TO HAVE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT SEES VOTING MACHINES.

THAT'S A TERRIBLE IDEA FOR THE COUNTRY.

THAT'S FOOT HOW WE DO THINGS IN THE UNITED STATES.

THERE IS NO LEGAL AUTHORITY TO DO THAT AND THERE IS A WAY TO CONTEST ELECTIONS.

I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY WE EVEN HAVE TO TELL YOU WHY THAT'S A BAD IDEA FOR THE COUNTRY.

IT'S A TERRIBLE IDEA.

>> Braude: STILL TRUMP PUSHED ON WHICH ULTIMATELY LED TO WHAT SEVERAL WITNESSES DESCRIBED AS A CURSE LADEN SCREAMING MATCH IN THE OVAL OFFICE WITH THE PRESIDENT, POWELL, MICHAEL FLYNN DEMANDING THEY MOVE FORWARD WITH THE PLAN.

>> SHE SAID WELL THE JUDGES ARE CORRUPT.

>> AND I WAS LIKE, EVERY ONE?

EVERY SINGLE CASE THAT YOU HAVE DONE IN THE COUNTRY A YOU GUYS LOST?

EVEN THE ONES WE APPOINTED?

AND I AM BEING NICE.

I WAS MUCH MORE HEAR TOSH HER.

WHAT THEY WERE PROPOSING I THOUGHT WAS NUTS.

>> FLYNN SCREAMED AT ME THAT I WAS A QUITTER, KEPT ON STANDING UP AND TURNING AROUND AND SCREAMING AT ME AND AT A CERTAIN POINT I HAD IT WITH HIM SO I YELLED BACK.

>> HAD THEM COME OVER, BETTER SIT YOUR F-ING ASS BACK DOWN.

>> Braude: AND IT WAS IMMEDIATELY AFTER THAT MEETING THAT TRUMP FIRED OFF THIS TWEET, AT 142 A M, A.M., BIG PROTEST IN DC ON JANUARY 6TH BE THERE, WILL BE WILD.

>> AND HIS SUPPORTERS CLEARLY GOT THE MESSAGE.

>> HE IS NOW CALLING ON WE THE PEOPLE TO TAKE ACTION AND TO SHOW OUR NUMBERS.

>> WE ARE GOING TO ONLY BE SAVED BY MILLIONS OF AMERICANS MOVING TO WASHINGTON OCCUPYING THE ENTIRE AREA, IF NECESSARY, STORMING RIGHT INTO THE CAPITOL.

>> THERE'S GONNA BE A RED WEDDING GOING DOWN JANUARY 6TH.

THERE'S GONNA BE A MILLION PLUS GEEKED UP ARMED AMERICANS.

>> THE TIME FOR GAMES IS OVER.

THE TIME FOR ACTION IS NOW.

WHERE WERE YOU WHEN HISTORY CALLED?

WHERE WERE YOU WHEN YOU AND YOUR CHILDREN'S DESTINY DESTINY AND FUTURE WAS ON THE LINE?

>> Braude: AND THE RED WEDDING A REFERENCE IS FROM A MOVIE ABOUT A MASSACRE.

>> AND ON SOCIAL MEDIA, AS THE COMMITTEE EXPLODE, SUPPORTERS POSTED MESSAGES LIKE TRUMP JUST TOLD US ALL TO COME ARMED, IT WILL BE WILD, MEANS WE NEED VOLUNTEERS FOR THE FIRING SQUAD.

>> WHITE REVOLUTION IS THE ONLY SOLUTION AND SO ON.

AMONG THE MANY INSPIRED BY TRUMP'S CALL ON VOTER PROUD CONSPIRACY THEORIES WAS STEPHEN AYRES A WHO SPOKE BEFORE THE COMMITTEE TODAY ABOUT WHY HE WAS AMONG THOSE WHO STORMED THE CAPITOL AND THE ONE THING THAT ULTIMATELY MADE HIM STOP.

>> I WAS VERY UPSET, AS WERE MOST OF HIS SUPPORTERS, YOU KNOW, THAT'S BASICALLY WHAT GOT ME TO COME DOWN HERE.

>> WHAT MADE YOU DECIDE TO LEAVE?

>> BASICALLY WHEN TRUMP, PRESIDENT TRUMP PUT HIS TWEET OUT.

WE LITERALLY LEFT RIGHT AFTER THAT COME OUT.

YOU KNOW, TO ME, IF HE WOULD HAVE DONE THAT EARLIER IN THE DAY, 1:30, YOU KNOW, WE WOULDN'T BE IN THIS, MAYBE WE WOULDN'T BE IN THIS BAD OF A SITUATION.

>> Braude: BUT AS BAD AS IT WAS ON JANUARY 6TH, ANOTHER OF TODAY'S WITNESS AS FORMER SPOKESMAN FOR THE OATH KEEPERS MILL A TENANT GROUP WHO LEFT THE ORGANIZATION YEARS BEFORE THE RIOT SAYS WE ARE LUCKY CAN IT WASN'T WORSE THE THE THE EXTREMIST HAD BEEN EMBOLDENED BY DONALD TRUMP.

>> I THINK WE HAD GOTTEN EXCEEDINGLY LUCKY THAT MORE BLOODSHED DID NOT HAPPEN BECAUSE THE POTENTIAL HAS BEEN THERE FROM THE START.

WHAT IT WAS GOING TO BE AN ARMED REVOLUTION.

I MEAN, PEOPLE DIED THAT DAY.

A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS DIED THIS DAY.

THERE WAS A GALLOWS SET UP IN FRONT OF THE CAPITOL.

THIS COULD HAVE BEEN THE SPARK THAT STARTED A NEW CIVIL WAR.

WHAT ELSE IS HE GONE NAAH, GONNA DO IF HE GETS ELECTED AGAIN?

ALL BETS ARE OFF AT THAT POINT.

>> Braude: I AM JOINED NOW BY NANCY GERTNER, RETIRED FEDERAL JUDGE AND SENIOR LECTURER AT HARVARD LAW SCHOOL, AND HARVARD LAW PROFESSOR, EMERITUS LAURENCE TRIBE, WHOSE STUDENTS HAVE INCLUDED FORMER PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA, MEMBERS OF THE JANUARY 6TH THE COMMITTEE, INCLUDING CONGRESSMAN JAMIE RASKIN.

>> NANCY GERTNER AND LAURENCE TRIBES, THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME.

WHAT WHAT WITH WAS YOUR COMMITTEE ATTEMPTING TO ACHIEVE TODAY AND HOW SUCCESSFUL WERE THEY?

>> WELL, WHAT THEY ARE DOING WHICH WE DIDN'T THINK COULD BE DONE IS TO LINK TRUMP DIRECTLY TO THE VIOLENCE ON JANUARY 6TH.

I WAS PARTICULARLY -- IT WAS PARTICULARLY STRUCK BY THE PLANS TO MARCH ON THE CAPITOL HAD BEEN HATCHED BEFORE JANUARY 6TH AND THAT HE EXPRESSLY -- THAT HE EXPRESSLY DIDN'T WANT ANYONE TO DISCLOSE THAT.

SO THOSE PLANS TO MARCH ON THE CAPITOL WHICH WERE SORT OF THE INCENDIARY, THE FUSE THAT LIT THIS, WAS SOMETHING THAT HAD BEEN PLANNED BEFOREHAND AND NOT AS THE MEDIA HAD REPORTED IT AND EVEN AS IT LOOKED LIKE A SORT OF A SPUR OF THE MOMENT TRUMPIAN, WHAT THE HELL, SAY THIS KIND OF THING BUT THAT IT HAD BEEN STUDIED BEFORE AND THAT WAS EXTRAORDINARY AND THAT PLUS HIS TEAT AFTER HE HAD THE MEETING WITH DESCRIBED AS THE UNHINGED MEETING WITH -- >> Braude: CRAZY.

>> YEAH, THE FACT THAT AT THAT POINT WHEN HE HAD BEEN TOLD THAT THERE REALLY WERE NO MEANINGFUL AFTER A NEWS, NO AVENUES AT ALL TO CHALLENGE THE ELECTION, AT THAT POINT HE GETS ON TWITTER AND GOES DIRECTLY, TALKS DIRECTLY TO HIS SUPPORTERS AND THEN THE NUMBERS OF TWEETS AFTER THAT LINKS HIM MUCH MORE DIRECTLY WITH WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6TH THAN JUST A SPUR OF THE MOMENT SPONTANEOUS I GOT CARRIED AWAY.

>> LARRY TRIBE, THAT WAS MY EXACT REACTION.

I FELT AT THE END OF WATCHING WHATEVER WAS THREE HOURS OF HEARINGS TODAY THAT FOR THE FIRST TIME WE SAW A DIRECT LINK BETWEEN WHAT HE SAID, BETWEEN WHAT HE TWEETED AND THE ACTIONS OF THE INSURRECTION ON JANUARY 6TH.

DO YOU SHARE THAT NOTION?

>> VERY MUCH, I MEAN, IT WAS EXTREMELY POWERFUL.

IT WAS POWERFUL BECAUSE WE SAW MOMENT BY MOMENT THIS CRAZY UNHINGED MEETING IN THE OVAL OFFICE WITH THE CAST OF CHARACTERS THAT SOMEONE SAID REMINDED THEM OF THE -- IN "STAR WARS", THE BARS IN "STAR WARS", WEIRDOES WHO WERE HATCHING ALL OF THESE PLOTS AND EVERY TIME THEY WOULD GET SHOT DOWN BY THE SANE PEOPLE THE TEAM NORMAL LIKE CIPOLLONE, TRUMP WAS INFURIATED AND FINALLY SAID BASICALLY THE HELL WITH IT.

AND THEN HE TURNED TO VIOLENCE.

THAT WAS THE NEXT STEP AND A AT 1:42 WHEN HE SAID BE THERE, IT WILL BE WILD.

WE NOW KNOW THAT WAS NOT JUST A DOG WHISTLE.

IT WAS A DIRECT SIGNAL TO THE OATH KEEPERS AND TO THE PROUD BOYS WHO WERE NOT ALWAYS ON THE SAME PAGE BUT WHO USED THAT AS MARCHING ORDERS TO GET IN LINE TOGETHER AND WE SAW THE FEEDBACK OF ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I THINK YOU HAD READ, THAT MEANS THAT WE PUT UP A FIRING SQUAD.

WELL, THEY CHOSE THE METHOD OF EXECUTION OF HANGING RATHER THAN THE FIRING SQUAD.

THEY WERE OUT FOR BLOOD AND WE NOW KNOW THAT TRUMP WAS RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF IT.

SO THAT THE EARLIER HEARINGS A BASICALLY PROVIDE AMPLE SUPPORT FOR PROSECUTING TRUMP FOR SEDITIOUS CONSPIRACY, THE PLOT TO HATCH FAKE ELECTORAL SLATES AND ALL THE REST.

THAT'S 0 THE NOT VIOLENT PART.

WE NOW HAVE CLEARLY MORE THAN PROBABLE CAUSE TO INDICT TRUMP FOR INCITING AND AIDING AND ABETTING AN INSURRECTION AND ON TOP OF IT ALL IN CHARACTERISTIC PARTING SHOT, LIZ CHENEY UNVEILED A CRIME IN REAL-TIME COMMITTED BY DONALD TRUMP.

SHE IS, SHE NOW SAID THAT DONALD TRUMP CALLED PERSONALLY, TELEPHONED THE WITNESS WHOSE NAME WE DON'T YET KNOW, OBVIOUSLY NOT TO TALK ABOUT THE WEATHER OR ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE, A WITNESS BEFORE THE JANUARY 6TH COMMITTEE AND THAT THE COMMITTEE IS NOW REFERRED THAT TO THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE.

THAT MEANS THAT THERE IS A BASIS RIGHT NOW TODAY TO INDICT THE PRESIDENT OF COURSE WE WOULD LIKE A LITTLE MORE DETAIL BUT TO INDICT HIM FOR A FEDERAL CRIME OF WITNESS TAMPERING PUNISHABLE BY 20 YEARS IN JAIL.

SO WHEN YOU ADD IT ALL UP TODAY WAS AN ABSOLUTELY BLOCKBUSTER HEARING.

>> Braude:YOU KNOW, I WANT TO PLAY, LARRY TRIBE FROM WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT THAT REFERRAL AND BY THE WAY LIZ CHENEY, SAID THAT WITNESS WHO WAS ALLEGEDLY TAMPERED WITH BY THE PRESIDENT WE HAVE NOT YET SEEN HIS OR HER TESTIMONY, THEY HAVE BEEN BEFORE THE COMMITTEE BUT IT HASN'T BEEN PUBLICKING, YOU TALKED ABOUT THE TIME FOR THE INDICT JUST ON THIS ALONE FROM THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, NANCY GERTNER IF I CAN GO TO YOU THE HEADLINE YESTERDAY IN "THE NEW YORK TIMES" WAS SO DEPRESSING TO ME I ALMOST COULDN'T SEE STRAIGHT, LET ME READ IT, HUTCHESON'S TESTIMONY, CASSIDY HUTCHESON THE ASSISTANT TO THE CHIEF OF STAFF, MARK MEADOWS, A WEEK OR SO AGO, JOLTS JUSTICE DEPARTMENT TO DISCUSS TRUMP'S CONDUCT MORE OPENLY.

BY THE WAY, THE STORY TRACKS THE HEADLINE.

IT IS SORT OF LIKE THEY NEEDED CASSIDY HUTCHISON AS POWERFUL AS HER TESTIMONY WAS, TO MORE OPENLY -- BY THE WAY, OPENLY WITHIN THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT HAVE THESE CONVERSATIONS .. WAS IT AS DISPIRITING TO YOU AS IT WAS TO ME OR AM I OVERREACTING?

>> I DON'T KNOW -- YOU KNOW, WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON IN THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE.

THE ONE THING THAT GARLAND HAS DONE IS TO CLAMP DOWN ON ANY LEAKS.

BUT LET ME PARSE A LITTLE BIT WHAT LARRY SAID.

UP UNTIL NOW WE THOUGHT THAT THERE WAS ALWAYS A QUESTION OF WHETHER TRUMP'S FINGERPRINTS WOULD BE ON THE FAKE ELECTOR PLOT OR THE JANUARY 6TH.

AND JANUARY 6TH ALWAYS SEEMED LESS IN REACH BECAUSE THAT LOOKED LIKE A SPONTANEOUS WHATEVER, WHATEVER PEOPLE'S INTENTIONS WERE, TRUMP WAS JUST BEING AS I SAID ON THIS PROGRAM BEFORE A USEFUL IDIOT.

THIS IS NOW SHOWING TRUMP'S FINGERPRINTS NOT JUST ON THE ELECTOR PLOT BUT TRUMP'S FINGERPRINTS ON JANUARY 6TH AND TRUMP'S FINGERPRINTS ON THE -- ON WITNESS TAMPERING IN A WAY THAT SHOULD TRIGGER AN INDICTMENT, SHOULD ABSOLUTELY TRIGGER AN INDICTMENT.

I THOUGHT THAT WHAT THE COMMITTEE WAS DOING WHICH WAS VERY CLEVER WAS BEGINNING WITH EASTMAN AND GIULIANI AND FLYNN AND ONCE YOU ESTABLISH THEIR CONSPIRACY WITH TRUMP THAT IT WOULD THEN BE INEVITABLE THAT TRUMP WOULD BE INDICTED BUT THIS TESTIMONY IS EVEN MORE DIRECT OF HIS -- WHAT HE KNEW DURING THAT UNHINGED MEETING AND THEN WHAT HE DID FROM THEN UNTIL JANUARY 6TH, THAT IS QUITE EXTRAORDINARY.

>> Braude: LARRY TRIBE, LET ME GET BACK TO THE CRIMINALITY ISSUE FOR A SECOND, IN YOUR OPINION I DIDN'T GO TO HARVARD BUT I LEARNED WHAT THE ELEMENT OS OF A CRIME ARE.

WE KNOW THAT THE NEXT HEARING WHICH MAY BE THE FINAL HEARING WE HAVE BEEN TOLD WILL BE A DISCUSSION, TESTIMONY EVIDENCE ABOUT WHAT DONALD TRUMP DID ON JANUARY 6TH WHILE HE WAS DOING NOTHING TO QUELL THE RIOTING OF THE INSURRECTION.

ARE THERE ANY OTHER ELEMENTS OF ANY OF THE CRIMES THAT YOU THINK THIS PRESIDENT HAS COMMITTED THAT NEED TO BE ESTABLISHED BY THIS COMMITTEE?

I KNOW IT IS NOT A PROSECUTING ENTITY BUT LAYING THE FOUNDATION FORMER RATE GARLAND IS THERE ANYTHING MISSING FROM THEIR CASE, LARRY TRIBE?

>> NOT REALLY, AT THIS POINT MERRICK GARLAND IS WITH A AWAKE AND HE IS AND AS SMART AS I THINK HE WAS A STUDENT, HE HAS GOT TO BE ABOUT TO ..

INDICT, NOW A LOT OF PEOPLE I KNOW WHO HAVE HAD MORE EXPERIENCE IN THE INNER WORKINGS OF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT THAN I HAVE ARE ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED THERE IS A LOT BENEATH THE SURFACE OF THIS ICEBERG, THAT IS A LOT GOING ON THAT EVEN THOUGH APPARENTLY THERE WAS A BIT OF A SURPRISE ABOUT CASSIDY HUTCHESON'S TESTIMONY WE SHOULDN'T ASSUME THAT THE ATTORNEY GENERAL IS ASLEEP AT THE SWITCH.

I WOULD LOVE TO THINK THAT IS TRUE, BUT WE WILL HAVE TO SEE THAT THE PROOF IS GOING TO BE IN THE PUDDING AND HERE THE PUDDING IS GOING TO LOOK LIKE AN INDICT I HOPE.

>> Braude: YOU HAVE BEEN A LOOT MORE GENEROUS WE DISCUSSED THIS LAST TIME WHEN YOU WERE HERE IN TERMS OF GARLAND THAN YOU WERE EARLY ON WHERE YOU SEEMED TO BE, YOUR TWEETS AND OTHERWISE PRETTY DISTURBED HE SEEMED TO BE DOING NOTHING, AT LEAST WE, THERE WERE NO OUTWARD SIGNS.

GETTING BACK TO WHAT YOU JUST SAID ABOUT HUTCHESON WHEN YOU READ THIS PIECE, SHOULD I BE SURPRISED THAT A CONGRESSIONAL COMMITTEE WHICH IS NOT THE PROSECUTORIAL BUSINESS GOT HUTCHESON BEFORE THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE EVEN KNEW ABOUT HER TESTIMONY, LARRY OR NO?

>> WELL, I WAS SURPRISED.

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU SHOULD BE.

BUT I WAS SURPRISED.

I WAS SURPRISED AND DISAPPOINTED.

>> Braude: OKAY.

CAN WE SWITCH -- I AM SORRY, GO AHEAD, LARRY, I AM SORRY.

>> IT MAY NOT BE ALL THAT IT LOOKS LIKE.

I AM NOT READY TO CONCLUDE THAT THEY WERE AS SHOCKED AS THEY APPEARED TO HAVE BEEN.

BUT THAT'S WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE.

>> Braude:, YOU KNOW,, CAN WE MOVE TO ANOTHER CHARACTER HERE?

HERE IS STEVE BANNON ON JANUARY 5TH URGING THE INSURRECTIONISTS ON.

THIS IS ON HIS PODCAST, HERE IS BENNETT.

>> THESE ARE ILLEGALLY PUT FORWARD ELECTORS THAT WILL BECOME MORE CLEAR TOMORROW, WE ARE ON THE CUSP OF REALLY REVERSING THIS, DECERTIFYING THIS AND THAT IS BECAUSE OF YOU, THIS AUDIENCE THAT HAS RESPONDED TO EVERYTHING.

IT IS ALL CONVERGING AND NOW WE ARE ON AS THEY SAY THE POINT OF ATTACK, RIGHT?

THE POINT OF ATTACK TOMORROW.

IT IS GOING TO KICK OFF AND BE VERY DRAMATIC.

THIS IS GOING TO BE VERY CONTROVERSIAL, WE ARE GOING INTO UNCHARTED WATERS AND GOING INTO SOMETHING THAT HAS WHENEVER HAPPENED BEFORE IN AMERICAN HISTORY, TOMORROW IS GOING TO FULL TRIGGER.

>> Braude:YOU KNOW, LARRY TRIBE I READ YOUR TWEET AND PARAPHRASING LIKE YOU SAID OLD BULLIES HE ULTIMATELY FOLDED I AM NOT CONVINCED HE FOLDED AT ALL.

I AM NOT CONVINCED HE HAD ANY INTENTION OF TESTIFYING BEFORE THIS COMMITTEE.

HE KNEW THEY WOULD REJECT HIS OFFER FOR, OR HIS REQUEST TO THE TESTIFY PUBLICLY.

WASN'T THIS JUST AN ACT BEFORE -- NEXT WEEK?

>> THE WHOLE THING WAS AN ACT.

WHEN I SAID FOLDED ALL I REALLY MEAN IS THAT HE HAS ALWAYS BEEN AN EMPTY SUIT, NOT A VERY WELL PRESSED SUIT BUT AN EMPTY SUIT NONETHELESS.

AND HE CLEARLY, YOU KNOW, HIS LAWYER JUST SAID TO THE JUDGE, TRUMP APPOINTED JUDGE BY THE WAY, YOU BASICALLY TOLD US WE DON'T HAVE ANY DEFENSES, WHAT IS THE POINT OF OUR -- YOU KNOW, EVEN GOING TO TRIAL?

AND THE JUDGE SAID I AM NOT SURE I HAVE AN ANSWER TO THAT.

MAYBE YOU SHOULD TALK TO YOUR CLIENT, MEANING MAYBE YOU SHOULD PLEAD GUILTY.

I MEAN, THIS GUY HAS NO DEFENSES AGAINST THE CRIME OF CONTEMPT OF CONGRESS AND THERE COULD BE A SUPERSEDING INDICTMENT BECAUSE FROM JUST WHAT HE SAID IN THAT EXCERPT IT SEEMS TO ME HE HAS GOT HIS FINGERPRINTS ALL OVER THE VIOLENCE THAT OCCURRED ITSELF.

HE IS NOT -- HE IS NOT IN THE CLEAR JUST FOR CRIME ALTHOUGH IT WAS IT IS A SERIOUS ONE CONTEMPT OF CONGRESS BUT MAY ALSO BE INVOLVED IN INCITING AN INSURRECTION, EIGHT AND ABETTING, EIGHTH AND ABETTING IT AND I THINK NEXT WEEK WE WILL HAVE A HEARING THAT WILL SHOW DONALD TRUMP WAS .. NOT JUST ABJECTLY ABSENT FROM DUTY DURING THE RIOT, DURING THE VIOLENCE, BUT THAT BY HIS SILENCE HE WAS KNOWINGLY ENCOURAGING THE FLAMES TO GO ON.

HE WAS BASICALLY POURING GAS ON THE FIRE.

>> Braude: WELL, LARRY, STAYING WITH YOU, IS INACTION IN THAT CIRCUMSTANCE THE?

>> IT CAN BE, IT CAN B IT DEPENDS ON WHETHER YOU HAVE A DUTY TO ACT AND THE PRESIDENT HAS A UNIQUE DUTY.

IT IS CALLED THE DUTY TO FAITHFULLY EXECUTE THE LAWS.

NOW, NO ONE ELSE IN THE COUNTRY HAS EXACTLY THAT DUTY, SO OF COURSE THERE RESPECT ANY PRECEDENTS FOR PROSECUTING EXACTLY THAT THAT KIND OF INACTION BUZZ BUT IN THE CONTEXT THAT WE HAVE HERE, I THINK THAT WILL BE PART OF THE SITUATION.

IT ALSO BEARS ON HIS STATE OF MIND, EVEN IF IT WAS NOT SEPARATELY A CRIME, THE FACT THAT HE COULD HAVE AT ANY MOMENT PULLED THE MOB BACK SUGGESTS STRONGLY THAT HE WANTED THEM TO DO EXACTLY WHAT THEY WERE DOING.

>> Braude: NANCY GERTNER, DID I SEE YOU CONCEPTCALLY SHAKING YOUR HEAD WHEN LARRY TRIBE WAS SUGGESTING THAT INACTION WAS AN ELEMENT, AT LEAST AN ELEMENT OF A CRIME?

>> I THINK IT COULD BE AN ELEMENT AND IN ONE SENSE I THINK IT IS THE WEAKEST LINK HERE, WHAT IS MUCH MORE DRAMATIC IS WHAT CAME OUT TODAY, WHICH IS HE -- HIS TWEET GOES TO THE -- YOU KNOW, GOES TO EVERYONE WU ESSENTIALLY RESONATES WITH THE RIGHT WING.

HE CONTINUES TO TWEET.

THERE IS AN ISSUE, THERE WAS A DISCUSSION ABOUT HOW -- WHO THE SPEAKERS WERE TO BE ON JANUARY 6TH AND THEY WERE ALL THE PEOPLE WHO WERE INTO SEDITION AND HE KNEW THAT, THAT AS I SAID BEFORE THERE WAS A PLAN TO MARCH ON THE CAPITOL AND THAT WE WILL KEEP IT QUIET IN ORDER TO SORT OF, WHAT, SANDBAG THE POLICE.

JUST GETTING BACK TO GARLAND FOR A MOMENT.

THERE IS AN ISSUE OF TIMING HERE, RIGHT?

GARLAND WHILE NOT ONE TO INDICT TRUMP AT THE SAME TIME AS -- NOT THAT HE COULDN'T, OF COURSE HE COULD, BUT THERE WILL BE THAT ISSUE.

SO ONE QUESTION THAT I HAVE BEEN THINKING ABOUT IS WHETHER IF AN INDICTMENT HAPPENS IT WILL HAVE TO BE RELATIVELY SOON OR AFTER THE MIDTERMS.

>> Braude: WELL, IT IS AFTER THE MIDTERMS -- >> BECAUSE -- >> Braude: IT IS NOT INTENDED TO AFFECT THE OUTCOME BUT IF IT IS AFTER THE MIDTERMS MOST LIKELY IF THE EXPERTS ARE RIGHT THERE IS GOING TO BE A REPUBLICAN HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES READY TO SUBPOENA ANYBODY FOR THEIR OWN VERSION OF A JANUARY 6TH HEARING.

DOESN'T THAT PUT THIS WHOLE THING IN A DIFFICULT SPOT?

>> IT MAKES IT MORE DIFFICULT BUT HE WOULD STILL BE ATTORNEY GENERAL.

>> Braude: OF COURSE.

>> SO HIS CRIMINAL PROSECUTION WOULD CONTINUE INDEPENDENT OF THAT.

>> Braude: WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT TIMING, LARRY TRIBES?

>> WELL, I AGREE WITH NANCY IT IS LIKELY TO BE EITHER VERY SOON OR IN DECEMBER OR PERHAPS JANUARY THAT DURING THE MIDTERMS THERE IS GOING TO BE AN EVEN GREATER RELUCTANCE BUT I DO THINK THAT EVEN ITCH THE MIDTERMS GO VERY STRONGLY IN THE REPUBLICAN DIRECTION, THE PART THAT IS -- IS THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH AND THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, IS NOT GOING TO SLOW GARLAND DOWN A BIT.

>> Braude: BUT YOU BOTH SEEM TO BE SPEAKING NOT ONLY AS YOU HAVE IN THE PAST THAT THE PRESIDENT SHOULD BE CRIMINALLY CHARGED BUT THAT HE WILL BE CRIMINALLY CHARGED.

AM I READING SOMETHING INTO EITHER OF YOUR COMMENTS ABOUT GARLAND I SHOULDN'T?

LARRY FIRST.

>> NO, NO.

I SAID I THINK HE WILL INDICT, BUT I ALSO THINK THAT WILLIS WILL PROBABLY GET THERE FIRST.

SHE IS.

>> Braude: FULTON COUNTY.

>> A VERY COURAGEOUS FULTON COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND I DO THINK THERE IS A VERY STRONG LIKELIHOOD THAT SHE WILL COME TO AN INDICTMENT FOR TRYING TO STEAL THE 16 ELECTORAL VOTES OF AND GEORGIA AND THE MILLIONS OF VOTES OF GEORGIA VOTERS BY THE PRESSURE HE PUT ON RAFFENSPERGER I THINK THAT MAY BE THE FIRST CRIMINAL INDICTMENT ALTHOUGH RIGHT NOW IT MAY BE A RACE BETWEEN THAT AND AN INDICTMENT FOR WITNESS FAMILIAR EVERYTHING AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL.

>> Braude: JUDGE GARTNER DID I READ YOU CORRECTLY TOO IN YOUR ESTIMATE THERE WILL BE AN INDICTMENT.

>> THE JANUARY 6TH COMMITTEE HAS BEEN BRILLIANT BECAUSE THEY HAVE SET UP THE PRESSURE ON GARLAND THAT NOTHING ELSE COULD HAVE SET UP.

NOTHING ELSE COULD HAVE SET UP.

THEY HAVE LAID OUT THE CASE AND IT IS CLEAR BY THE WAY FOR MOSTLY LIZ CHENEY'S COMMENTS THEY ARE TALKING IN TERMS OF CRIMINAL INDICTMENT.

THEY TALK ABOUT THE PRESIDENT KNEW AND WHEN HE KNEW IT AND THEN THEY TALK ABOUT A WILL, WILLFUL BLINDNESS WHICH IS ANOTHER CRIMINAL LAW CONCEPT WHERE ESSENTIALLY YOU ARE ON NOTICE OF X CRIMINAL FACT AND/OR CLAIMING NOT TO, YOU KNOW, NOT TO CONSIDER IT.

THEY ALSO AT THE BEGINNING CHENEY SAID, YOU KNOW, THERE IS NOW EVOLVING A NEW THEORY THAT TRUMP WAS ILL SERVED BY THE UNHINGED CRAZIES AROUND HIM BUT THE EVIDENCE IS MORE DIRECT THAT, IN FACT, HE KNEW WHAT WAS GOING ON, SO THE LANGUAGE OF THE COMMITTEE IS THE LANGUAGE OF CRIMINAL LAW AND SO I THINK THAT.

>> Braude: YEAH.

>> -- GARLAND HAS TO HAVE HIS HEAD UNDER A ROCK NOT TO UNDERSTAND THE IMPLICATIONS OF THIS.

>> Braude: WELL, NOT ONLY IS WILLFUL BLINDNESS HARD TO CLAIM WHAT WE LEARNED MORE OF TODAY, EVEN THE THREE CRAZY I SEE ON HIS SYCOPHANT LEGAL TEAM KNEW THEY HAD NO EVIDENCE OF THE ELECTION, WHICH IS NEW TO ME.

WE HEARD YOU SAY IN INTERVIEWS AD NAUSEAM, CRIMINAL POWER, WE ARE NOT HERE TO ANSWER QUESTIONS ABOUT REFERRAL, WE JUST DO OUR JOB.

TODAY ANOTHER STUDENT OF YOURS SAID AT THE END, HIS LAST COMMENTS, OUR JOB HERE IS TO MAKE PROPOSALS QUOTE TO FORTIFY DEMOCRACY AGAINST A COUP COUP, IT SEEMS TO ME WE VIDEOED A COUP SO FAR IN GREAT PART BECAUSE OF TO ACTIONS OF INDIVIDUALS, NOT BECAUSE OF INSTITUTIONAL GUARDRAILS THAT EXIST IN OUR GOVERNMENT.

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU AGREE.

WHAT ARE SOME OF THE THINGS THAT CONGRESS COULD DO TO QUOTE FORTIFY DEMOCRACY AGAINST A FUTURE COUP, LARRY?

>> WELL, IT COULD ELIMINATE SOME OF THE TERRIBLE AMBIGUITIES OF THE ELECTORAL ACCOUNT ACT WHICH WERE EXPLOITED BY JOHN EASTMAN AND OTHERS.

IT COULD ALSO ENACT A LAW THAT MAKES CLEAR THAT STATE LEGISLATURES CANNOT RUB THE, ROB THE VOTES OF THE PEOPLE OF THOSE STATES.

CONGRESS THAT POWER BOTH UNDER THE ELECTIONS CLAUSE AND THE SECTION FIVE OF THE FOURTEENTH AMENDMENT TO TAKE THAT KIND OF ACTION, BUT IT WOULD REQUIRE GETTING RID OF THE FILIBUSTER FIRST.

>> Braude: BUT ALSO -- WHAT ABOUT, LAST NOTE IF I MAY, MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT THE CASE COMING TO THE SUPREME COURT IN THE FALL OUT OF NORTH CAROLINA IS AN ATTEMPT TO UNDERCUT THAT LAST LEG OF WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, BASICALLY SAYING STATE COURTS CAN HAVE NO ROLE IN STATE LEGISLATIVE DECISIONS ABOUT FEDERAL ELECTIONS WHICH WOULD UNDERCUT THE WHOLE THING, NO?

>> WELL, IT IS A COMPLETELY TERRIBLE AND BASELESS THEORY, I HAVE WRITTEN A FEW OPINION PIECES ABOUT IT BUT IT WOULDN'T UNDERCUT NECESSARILY CONGRESS'S POWER TO OVERRIDE THIS STATE, INDEPENDENT STATE LEGISLATURE THEORY SUCH AS IT IS.

>> Braude: NANCY, GERTNER I AM CURIOUS TO KNOW WHAT YOU THINK TO FORTIFY DEMOCRACY, THOSE WHO HAVEN'T FOLLOWED THE -- WHAT CONGRESS IS THINKING OF DOING IS RAISING THE THRESHOLD TO CHALLENGE THE ELECTORS FROM I THINK 20 PERCENT TO A MAJORITY, AND, TWO, MAKE, EX-UNITED STATES YATEINGLY CLEAR THE VICE PRESIDENT'S JOB IS PURELY MINISTERIAL AS MOST PEOPLE, AS ALL SANE PEOPLE THINK IT IS.

WHAT ELSE SHOULD BE ADDED TO THAT FORTIFICATION LIST?

>> WELL, I NINE MAKE IT CLEAR THAT THE LARRY WAS SAYING ..

THE POPULAR VOTE IS WHO DETERMINES WHO THE ELECTORS ARE AND A NOT SOMETHING THAT THE STATE LEGISLATORS CAN DO.

BUT LET ME JUST KEY INTO OUR PREVIOUS DISCUSSION THIS IS ACTUALLY ALL THE MORE REASON THAT WHATEVER THE VAGARIES OF THE CONGRESS ARE AND DO, MAKE IT AT ALL MORE REASON THAT TRUMPIAN BE INDICT IN ORDER AND OTHERS BE INDICTED FOR THIS CONDUCT BECAUSE THEN IT WOULD TO A DEGREE PUT A LINE IN THE SAND THAT THIS WAS WRONG WRONG AND EVEN A IF CONGRESS IS FUZZY ABOUT WHAT SHOULD BE DONE, THERE NEEDS TO BE CLARITY, WHATEVER WE DO GOING FORWARD, THIS WAS WRONG AND I THINK THAT THAT IS CRITICAL.

>> Braude: NANCY GERTNER I ONLY HAVE 30 SECONDS LEFT, THE LAST TIME WE WERE HERE WE WERE DISCUSSING YOUR COMMENT TO HE, I BROUGHT IT UP WITH LARRY TRIBE, IF YOU ARE GOING TO STRIKE AT THE KING YOU BETTER KILL HIM, IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU MOVED YOUR POSITION A LITTLE BIT?

>> WELL, NO.

I THINK THEY HAVE THE GOODS, NOT JUST TO DIETS.

I THINK THEY HAVE THE GOODS TO TO CONVICT.

I MEAN I AGREE THAT WOULD BE TERRIBLE FOR THE COUNTRY AND VERY DIFFICULT, BUT I AM NOW PERSUADED THAT THE CONSEQUENCES WOULD BE FAR WORSE IF THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE DOES NOT TAKE THIS ACTION.

>> Braude: LARRY TRIBE IS A PRETTY PERSUASIVE GUY, NANCY GERTNER, I BET HE IS.

LARRY TRIBE, NANCY GERTNER, I REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR TIME AS ALWAYS.

REALLY HELPFUL.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> #02: THANKS.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Braude: THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING, AND PLEASE DON'T FORGET UKRAINE.

>> Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org