(dramatic music) - [Tim] Thanks for sitting in with us.

Our guest this week is the President of the Michigan Association of Public School Academies Charter Schools.

His name is Dan Quisenberry.

Our lead story, a new candidate in the US Senate race, his name is Hill Harper.

On the OTR panel, Chuck Stokes, Stella Yu, and Alyssa Burr.

Sit in with us as we get the inside out "Off The Record".

(dramatic music) - [Announcer] Production of "Off The Record" is made possible in part by Martin Waymire, a full service strategic communications agency, partnering with clients through public relations, digital marketing, and public policy engagement.

Learn more at martinwaymire.com.

And now this edition of "Off the Record with Tim Skubick".

- Thank you very much.

Welcome back to Studio C. We're recording on Wednesday of this week.

We have a new entrance into the US Senate race, his name is Hill Harper, maybe you've seen him.

The video launch of the Hill Harper campaign for the US Senate nomination was highly produced and the hook was, he's explaining to his adopted son that they won't have as much time together as the campaign moves into overdrive.

Mr. Harper's major opposition at this read is mid-Michigan Congresswoman Elissa Slotkin, who just raised almost 3 million in her bid for the Senate nomination.

Mr. Harper, who has never run for elective office before, is critical of those who have and made it a career.

Without mentioning Ms. Slotkin by name, he says this about quote those type of people.

- I believe our government should work for the people, be a force for good, and protect our freedoms.

And that won't happen if we keep electing the same type of people to office.

- When he recounts his resume, interestingly, he leaves out the fact that he is a TV star on network television and he never admits to being a Democrat.

Although he does refer to himself as a progressive.

And his team considers Ms. Slotkin to be more middle of the road.

His entrance into the contest also means there are now three African American candidates all vying for votes to get the nomination.

Zack Burns and Nasser Beydoun are considered long shot contenders for the nomination to replace outgoing US Senator Debbie Stabenow.

So, Stella, this kinda shakes up this US Senate race a little bit, doesn't it?

- Yeah, so now, I mean, as you mentioned on the video, right?

There are three Black candidates now against Elissa Slotkin and that's, you know, the same question that she has to deal with, right?

How does she represent the Black community in Michigan?

I think that's a really big question for her campaign.

And, but also we've seen in her fundraising, in Slotkin's fundraising records.

I mean, she has this incumbent advantage in Congress already, and with that she has built a war chest and she has raised $3 million.

That is a huge cash advantage already over her candidates.

So it'll be interesting to see where this race ends.

- What's your take?

- I mean, you know, Hill Harper, he has the name recognition nationally, maybe in the entertainment world, but he really has to make himself stand out in the Michigan political scene.

You know, there may be people here who don't necessarily know who he is.

He has, you know, started saying that he's a business owner and he's, you know, worked in nonprofits.

But I don't necessarily know if that's enough to give him the advantage over Elissa Slotkin.

And you know, as Stella mentioned, he really has to bring that fundraising to kind of back up what he's talking about.

- Why is he ignoring the TV thing?

- Well, he doesn't want that to be the image going into the political world.

- Excuse me.

- I know it is.

You know, it's stamped all over him.

And it's something that I'm certain he's going to use when he's fundraising, 'cause you can bet that there's a trip out to California and New York and other places at some point to be able to tap some of those friends who he's already established relationships with.

But, you know, this reminds me of, you know, Mike Duggan.

Remember he hasn't always been a Detroiter, you know, he stamped that now, but he went from Livonia into Detroit and he had to face the quote unquote carpet bagging baggage when he first ran, Hillary Clinton in New York, Arnold Schwarzenegger.

I mean, there's a history of high profile people deciding that they want to shift from the Hollywood world into the political world, but it's a whole different league and he's gonna have to prove himself.

- Well, this is another example of how our politics has changed over the years.

Years ago, if you wanted to run for the US Senate, you started out at the local school board, you moved to the city council, you got to dog catcher, and eventually you went for the big enchilada.

Now like Rick Snyder, non-career politician running for one of the top jobs.

Do people want an outsider, somebody with no experience in Congress?

- Well, I think part of that is true, you know, because there's that anti-political term that you have to deal with, so I think- - Those type of people.

- That's right.

- [Tim] Those type of people isn't that sweet.

- So for a lot of people that will work, they say "That person, Hill Harper and others are not part of that quote unquote political establishment.

I want someone who's lived in the real world to come in and shake things up."

That's gonna work both ways for 'em.

There's, he's gonna face opposition from both the Republican party as well as some of his democratic opponents in debates and stuff, say, "You aren't, you haven't been in Detroit, you didn't grow up in Detroit, you didn't go to Detroit schools."

- You're from from Iowa.

- That's right, "How can you relate?"

So he's gonna have to fight that, but that doesn't mean that he can't be successful, because we've seen it happen in other places.

The big issue here, as Stella mentioned, is that you have three African American candidates all going up against each other.

That's going to split up the vote.

Elissa Slotkin's looking at that and saying, "Go ahead, divvy it up, and I'll just walk away.

I'm already leading with the fundraising campaign."

What happened to the days when federal judge Damon Keith and Mayor Coleman Young, used to put everybody in a room, lock the door and say, "We aren't coming outta here until we're behind one person."

Those days have changed.

- I'm interested.

He's describes himself as a progressive and they think she's middle to the road, isn't middle to the road where votes are.

- Well, yeah, 'cause I mean, if you're able to be moderate enough to reach people on lower level and higher level issues, it definitely is, but you know, with Michigan having the democratic control legislature, governor Gretchen Whitmer, all of the high level positions in Michigan politics are Democrats.

So kind of following along with the agenda that's been implemented throughout the term, you know, Hill Harper, he may have a different type of advantage in that aspect.

- Who was, who are gonna be his supporters.

He starts, he was over in Grand Rapids and said, "The people I'm after is the people that never vote."

That's an interesting voting block to go after, isn't it?

- Yeah, for sure.

I mean the voter turnout, you know, it always shows that there is a large percentage of voters, right, who are not going to vote.

And maybe that's because the candidates on the ballot aren't, just aren't good enough for them.

So for Hill Harper, I think, yeah, his name recognition in the state may gain him some more votes.

People may find that, you know, really curious and people may lean in, right, to listen to him more.

And then maybe, you know, he could grasp some people who are, you know, tired of career politicians, for example, who are tired of, you know, incumbents.

They may feel like nothing has really changed in their favor.

And maybe that's the group of voters that could lean toward, you know, some more, you know, long shot candidates or you know, even some of candidates like Hill Harper, other African American candidates who might make changes.

- Well, and it didn't take him long to use the word coronation, which is code for "Elissa Slotkin, you don't own this nomination."

Right?

- And she's going to have to fight for that position.

Granted, she's, you know, an incumbent congresswoman and she has established a record and she's been successful and she's been in tough campaigns and she's come out victorious.

But you're now running for the seat that Senator Debbie Stabenow, after all these years is vacating.

Question's going to be, can she convince enough people and can she get the right endorsements to make a big difference?

You know, does she get Debbie Stabenow to come off the fence at some point and the weigh in on this?

Or will Stabenow say, "I'm not messing with it, especially in the primary.

You all fight it out and we'll see what happens."

- Except the chatter behind the scenes is is that Stabenow's fingerprints are over the Elissa Slotkin campaign.

We cannot confirm that, but you've heard that, right?

- Right.

I mean, a lot of people have said that with so many candidates starting to enter the field, campaign season is ongoing.

It may be too early to solidify your support behind one specific candidate.

So whilst Slotkin has, you know, kind of the backing of these more established politicians, they may not want to necessarily throw their name behind a certain candidate quite yet to see who may be following up next.

- All right, let's talk about the event that happened last Saturday.

The Republican State Central Committee met in a little town up north and a hockey game broke out.

- [Alyssa] Yeah.

- That was supposed to be funny guys.

That was my funniest line of the program and it was crickets.

See, like fight in the hockey game.

You guys don't play hockey, so you don't understand this, go ahead.

- Yeah.

- Save me here.

(group laughing) - No, I was gonna say we went with the headline "Kicked in Groin", right?

And I personally didn't cover that fight, but I really- - You didn't have to.

- It was all around the world.

I mean, yeah, it was yet another funny fight.

Really, not so funny for the participants, obviously, but breaking out in a already very chaotic scene in Michigan politics, specifically the Michigan Republican Party.

- Let's just set the stage.

There was a meeting of the State Central Committee.

Somebody wanted to get in, they locked the door, could not get in.

They found out that he was there and the guy who unlocked the door takes this guy on.

When you heard that story, what did you think?

- I just thought that the Republican Party has bigger fish to fry.

I mean, coming into this term, talking about having not a lot of cash on hand, they've already lost several seats in the legislature.

I mean, this is the second physical altercation at the statewide party level this year.

It's definitely something that could stain what they're trying to do as far as coming back from those things that may have held them back in the previous election.

So I just think that they have bigger fish fry.

- Well, your point is well taken because now the conversation is all about this kind of stuff, this ancillary stuff that shouldn't be going on when the focus is on winning elections.

Isn't that what it's all about?

- Yeah, absolutely right Tim, you've hit the nail on the head.

And Kristina Karamo as the Republican Party state chair, is starting to get a reputation of not being able to handle the party in the way that past GOP chairs have handled their party.

And that the focus is on the wrong thing here.

And so this is going to be something that she's gonna have to work on.

And it hurts her with the fundraising.

It hurts her with people saying, "I don't want to be" Republicans saying "I don't wanna be associated with the Michigan Republican Party right now, we're becoming buffoons in terms of the eyes of the public.

We don't like the reporting on all these national media talking about these fights here."

Now there's still time for her to pull it together, but this is a problem and it's a problem that's gonna have to be dealt with.

- The good news.

- And the question is why are people like, you know, Matt Hall and others not speaking out, somebody taking control and saying, "We've gotta do something about this."

It's sort of like everybody's sitting back watching, almost afraid to jump into this.

- Well I think they're waiting for this thing to implode.

You know what, it's a ticking time bomb, a lot of people believe.

All right, let's call in and talk about charter schools with Dan Quisenberry.

(dramatic music) Did you get that discussion?

You're a hockey player.

- I'm talking about kids in education.

let's do that.

(group laughing) - You're a hockey player, you got that joke, didn't you?

- No, yeah, well, I did get the joke, yes.

- Well listen, there's been no joke.

- I'm not a hockey player.

The democratic legislature passed a school aid bill.

You're not totally happy with what they gave you or didn't give you, right?

- Well, I'd put it in, and this is possible in politics.

I can play both sides.

We're encouraged and we're discouraged.

I mean, $21.4 billion, that's important.

The goals of this legislature, everybody coming off a campaign trail, including the governor, said, "We've had three years of a pandemic.

Let's get kids back on track, that's right."

Let's talk about equity.

That means all kids, especially those that have been most vulnerable or not served well by our system, that's right.

And yet when the budget comes out, yeah, there's a 20% cut to just charter cyber schools.

Not all cyber schools, charter schools were left out of the brick and mortar money, the facility money.

And then there was this whole list of categoricals that were distributed that we don't think- - This creates special programs, right?

You guys got nothing of that?

- Who does, right?

Somebody gets a gym, somebody gets a track, somebody gets a pool.

Did I see a Tim Skubick journalist program in there?

I don't know, it was a Dolly Parton program.

That was it, That was it.

- It wasn't, that's close.

- It's not gonna create equity is what's gonna happen with those dollars.

- How can you sit there and not be more perturbed over a 20% cut?

- We are.

And yet that's not what came out on the final budget.

So the encouraging part, again, I'm being an optimist here, is we had a lot of new people in Lansing on both sides of the aisle.

A lot of new people in leadership.

And this was something that's been happening, but the probability of it really being cut was very much, it was a higher probability.

So we had work to do, we brought in leaders from schools and teachers, sometimes even students, "Hey, here's who these people are, here's what they're doing different doesn't mean less, this cut doesn't make any sense to your priorities."

We got leadership in the house that started to resonate with that.

So kudos to Chair Weiss and Speaker Tate to say, "Hey, we got a different recommendation."

They at least kept it flat.

- Why do you think this has happened?

Why, do you feel as though you've specifically been targeted?

This is a governor that back in January when I talked to you and your chair Buzz Thomas, you were praising her for the record amount of money that she has been spending on education.

- And like I say, that's right in an encouraging thing.

So why the cut to cyber schools?

It's not clear what that is.

People have a hard time explaining it except, "Well, Dan, the costs are different."

Two, two issues there.

One is a, seems political.

Okay, that's, you're just doing cyber charters, not all online schools.

So if online is cheaper, the cut doesn't apply to everybody.

That makes no sense.

And different doesn't mean less.

So then that's my job, I got to educate people to say, "No, they don't have a chemistry lab.

But if you've got 300 students, they have 300 chemistry labs, they package those chemistry programs up, ship 'em out to their students across the state, provide internet, all kinds of things, different, not less.

- Is this the Michigan Education Association, which backed Governor Whitmer very soundly whispering in her ear and saying, "Okay, you've now got the power.

Go after the charter schools, reign them on in."

Is this the Michigan Education Department, which you've had some battles with which say "We don't know exactly how you're spending all the money and you aren't, you don't have to do the same public disclosures that everybody else does."

So you've had that battle and then, you know, elections have consequences.

- Yeah, definitely Chuck.

With an exception, as important as we think we are, and we are part of the public education system and education is really important.

Boy, there was a lot of big issues on the agenda this spring.

So it was certainly a, the political power of big labor was being felt in Lansing.

That just can't be denied.

But workers' rights, workers are parents and we know by polling that every, support across the board for charter schools has increased in the last couple of years, including Democrats, including union households.

So are those whispers going on?

I don't know if that was part of that 20% cut.

We'll see as the agenda continues to roll out, we just really haven't been in the mix.

There's a lot of other labor issues that have been talked about already.

We'll see what happens next.

- Can you give a rundown of like, you know, we're talking about cuts, proposed cuts to cyber charter schools.

How many of these cyber charter schools are there around Michigan and why are they important?

- Well, they serve an important number of students, but we also know that it's not gonna be every student.

So it's a great question, Stella, 'cause they typically serve, online programs generally, but certainly the cyber charters are serving students who just have a hard time having their needs met in a traditional environment.

So we just had, I think it was four top NHL draft picks come out of a Michigan cyber charter school, why?

As there training to be drafted in the NHL, their schedules are unique, right?

In the same way, maybe it's been a bullying problem, maybe it's a health problem, maybe it's a credit recovery issue.

I met a young man in the Detroit area who, like all of our students experienced remote learning enrolled in a online school because they really know how to do online.

And he liked it.

And he said, "Dan, I got to interact with student across the state.

I wasn't gonna get that opportunity at traditional brick and mortar school."

So that was a unique thing for him.

And he was starting to take personal responsibility for his education.

Not every student's gonna, is that gonna work for, so in some ways still, I'll wrap this up 'cause I know that was a long answer to it, but that's the role that charters play in public education.

We can provide unique delivery to individualizing education and online education is part of that and it's not gonna go away and it's not cheaper.

- Well, and the rationale that I've heard behind cutting the programming for, or cutting the funding for these cyber schools is cyber schools don't have the same amount of transportation needs, you know, sports, things of that nature.

So what exactly is being taken away from these cyber schools in this way?

Is it paying for teachers?

Is it some form of programming?

I mean, what are we seeing being lost here?

- Yeah, it's a great question and more information that we need to provide to all these new policymakers.

I mean when we were having, what I would call sincere conversations, it was about that.

"Dan, I really wanna understand this.

I hear what you're saying, but I wanna see it."

Okay, so we started to break some of that down.

You would have to, staffing is a huge part of any school and we have staff that are online educators as well.

Again, given all the different variations and even the uniqueness of online counselors and support people are more important.

They're always important, but super important with online to make sure you're connecting with those students, supporting the family.

Transportation, no, but not all schools provide transportation.

Some of the online schools actually have brick and mortar facilities, drop-in centers.

And like I say, programming costs.

They provide internet and technology and support for that as well as, "Hey, I'm gonna distribute 300 chemistry labs across the state."

- The bugaboo that your group has always faced over the years in this town, is it you're sucking money away, that per pupil grant from the public schools, right?

- Yeah, it's been a criticism.

And yeah, almost 30 years of charter schools in Michigan, we're still having a lot of the same conversations, Tim, but okay, term limits new people.

That's our job is to keep educating people.

But it doesn't take away, there was another thing in this budget, a big concern.

How important is that per pupil foundation grant?

We think it's vital, and that's not just for charters.

That's how you solve the equity issue.

You design funding that follows a student and you weight it like this budget does for at risk or special needs, English language learners.

That's important.

You do that, then districts can take those dollars and do what they need to do, and it doesn't take away.

There's research across the country that addresses that, Tim, and it says, you know what, there may be an immediate impact on a district, a traditional district, or even a charter where a student leaves, but they accommodate that.

And so no, it doesn't drain.

It's just another one of those just disinformation.

- If there was a voucher plan on the ballot.

How would your chartered people vote?

- You know, it's been an ongoing conversation.

We believe that parents ought to have the ability to choose the school they go to, inter-district choice.

- [Tim] So you would support a voucher.

- That's not our role to play it, but we can't argue against choices.

So yeah, inter-district choice.

There's probably more parents that utilize that than they do utilize charter schools.

And I tell charter school folks, if you think you've got a lock on your parents, you're wrong.

The people that communicate the best, provide a culture, communicate to their staff and their parents.

Those are the ones that thrive and really do really well.

If you don't do that, then maybe you don't deserve to have those kids.

- Dan, Tim and I have been around for better or worse long enough to remember when the original fight was should there or should there not even be charter schools?

Certainly we've gotten past that in many respects, but the political battle, especially inside the power works here in Lansing, still happen.

Outside of that, how much do you think attitudes from the general public have or have not changed in terms of acceptance of charter schools?

- Yeah, great question Chuck.

And I think the key, even to the first part of your question, public support continues to grow.

And yet when I'm having a conversation, Tim, similar to your question with what I would call a real parent, someone that's not political, "Dan, I want to understand some things."

They don't care what kind of school it is.

Traditional, charter, fill in the blank.

I wanna know if it's quality.

I wanna know that you're treating the teachers well, I wanna know that it fits the unique and individual needs of my student.

And if I have more than one student, I might go to different schools.

That's what I want."

And again, the polling shows us that it doesn't matter what your demographic is, region, party, union member, doesn't matter.

"I'm a parent, I want to be in charge of that choice and I want to have that choice."

- Have public school students and particularly parents voted with their feet.

- Yeah, absolutely they have.

Charter school enrollment ticked up in Michigan during the pandemic.

It declined across the board.

I'm not celebrating that.

I'm just saying, "Okay, it's really interesting."

I know the Department of Ed has really looked hard at those numbers and we're, there's a lot of students, we don't know where they went, but it certainly, Chuck, in my opinion, parents walking with their feet.

They got up and close and personal during the pandemic.

They had sympathy for educators, but they're not sure they were happy with what they saw, and they wanna do something different.

- So now the budget has been passed, you know, the legislators are doing some work in their own district.

When they return, what are some of the, you know, charter school priorities you're hoping to whisper in the democratic majority's ears?

You know, what kind of priorities are you hoping to get done?

- Yeah, great question.

Making sure that those kinds of choices and options thrive.

And not just charter schools.

We are part of the public school system, right?

So how do we help improve education?

We do think that per pupil amounts, not the amount of the budget, it's how it's distributed per pupil matters.

Weighted towards the needs of a student.

We think academic accountability is important.

I know that's been undone and there's been arguing about some of that.

The 3rd grade reading law, the A-F report card, et cetera.

But one of the tenants of charter schools is we pay attention to those academic numbers.

And that's how you close achievement gaps is by really being serious about it and having people from the outside looking at it and going, "How are you doing?"

So we would promote that.

And then just making sure that the environment is conducive to people opening a school or to existing schools thriving.

And I mean that across the board.

Rural districts have struggled for quite some time.

Traditional districts.

We gotta make sure people are surviving and thriving if we want them to meet them, kids.

And I'm leaving out the biggest issue, teacher talent supply.

I mean, we have a global labor problem and we had a teacher talent problem before the pandemic, we certainly have one going forward and making sure that teachers are inspired, supported, quality, that's gonna matter.

And we think we've got ideas about all that.

We see it happening.

- Your charter schools have the same safety problems that public schools have?

- [Dan] Absolutely.

- And you guys are on top of that?

- Everybody stresses about it, but it's certainly an issue, yeah.

And so as I talk to leaders, they're doing the training they're doing, they're trying to be conscious about what's happening.

Yeah, it's an ongoing problem.

- Thank you very much, Mr. Quisenberry.

Nice to have you on the program.

Nice to have a great panel with us.

Everybody have a nice weekend, eventually when we get to it.

See you next week here for more "Off the Record."

- [Announcer] Production of "Off the Record" is made possible in part by Martin Waymire, a full service strategic communications agency, partnering with clients through public relations, digital marketing, and public policy engagement.

Learn more at martinwaymire.com.

For more "Off the Record", visit wkar.org.

Michigan public television stations have contributed to the production costs of "Off the Record".

(dramatic music) (inspiring music)