>> Announcer: DONNYBROOK IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE SUPPORT OF THE BETSY AND THOMAS PATTERSON FOUNDATION AND THE MEMBERS OF NINE PBS.

>> HEY, THANKS FOR JOINING US FOR THIS EDITION OF DONNYBROOK.

GREAT TO HAVE YOU WITH US AND A LOT OF HOT TOPICS IN THIS MID JULY EDITION.

BUT AFTER THAT, WE'RE GOING TO TALK TO TWO INDIVIDUALS WHO THINK THAT MAKING A WALKABLE, BIKEABLE ST. LOUIS WILL REALLY YIELD ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT.

WE'LL TALK TO CINDY MENSE OF TRAILNET AND SARAH ARNOSKY, VICE PRESIDENT AT GREATER ST. LOUIS INC.

BUT FIRST LET'S DISCUSS THE ISSUES WITH OUR PANEL.

LET'S MEET THEM.

WENDY WIESE IS THE NEWS DIRECTOR FOR THE BIG 550 KTRS.

ALSO THE COHOST OF THE JENNIFER AND WENDY SHOW.

MR. BILL McCLELLAN IS WITH US, A FOUNDER OF THE PROGRAM.

HE'S WITH THE ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH.

RAY HARTMANN WITH RAWSTORY.COM, THE BIG 550, KTRS, AND THE RIVERFRONT TIMES, ANOTHER FOUNDER.

AND HE'S THE NEWS EDITOR AND SPORTS COLUMNIST WITH THE ST. LOUIS AMERICAN, ALVIN REID.

OKAY, LET ME ASK YOU, RAY HARTMANN, IT WAS KIND OF HISTORIC, I GUESS.

PEOPLE SAID THE TEN OR WAS IT 12-HOUR MEETING THIS WEEK OF THE ST. LOUIS BOARD OF ALDERMEN, SHATTERED ALL RECORDS FOR THIS LEGISLATIVE BODY THAT NEVER NET AT QUITE SUCH A LENGTH.

I GUESS HISTORIANS WILL HAVE TO LOOK INTO THAT AND SEE IF THAT'S TRUE, BUT NONETHELESS, THIS YEAR ST. LOUIS IS GETTING 498 MILLION FEDERAL DOLLARS FROM THE AMERICAN RESCUE PLAN AND A LOT OF THAT HAS BEEN ALLOCATED THANKS TO ACTION BY THE BOARD.

DIRECT PAYMENTS OF $500 WILL GO TO 10,000 NEEDY ST. LOUISANS.

GIFT CARDS GO TO ST. LOUISANS SO THEY'LL BE VACCINATED.

THE POLICE WILL GET $5 MILLION IN OVERTIME AND ALL THIS GOES TO THE BOARD OF ESTIMATE AND APPORTIONMENT WHICH MEETS FRI, TOMORROW.

THERE'S ANOTHER STEP BEFORE THIS BECOMES REALITY, BUT OVERALL, WHAT DID YOU SYMPATTHINK?

>> I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE CYNICAL ABOUT THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS AND I WISH WASHINGTON WOULD WORK AS WELL AS THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS DID.

YOU HAD DIFFERENCES OF OPINION BETWEEN MAYOR TISHAURA JONES AND LEWIS REED, THE ALDERMANIC PRESIDENT AND THEY SAT DOWN AND APPARENTLY HASHED IT OUT.

I THINK IT'S EASY TO SIT HERE, BUT I THINK THEY COMPROMISED AND WHAT'S WE WANT PUBLIC OFFICIALS TO DO IS TALK THINGS OUT AND COMPROMISE, AND I HAPPEN TO THINK THAT THE -- THAT WHILE IT'S UNCONVENTIONAL, THE DIRECT PAYMENTS WILL BE STIMULUSES TO THE ST. LOUIS ECONOMY AND MORE IMPORTANT, HELP THE PEOPLE THAT -- THE 10,000 PEOPLE THAT WILL BE RECEIVING THEM AND THEY'LL BE VERY HELPFUL, VERY CRITICAL TO THOSE FOLKS.

I THINK IT'S A GOOD STEP.

I THINK THEY'RE WORKING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

>> WHILE I AGREE WITH HIM, I'M GOING TO GO WAY BACK WHEN THIS FIRST CAME UP AND BILL McCLELLAN SAID WHY NOT JUST TAKE THE $5 MILLION OUT OF THE STIMULUS PACKAGE?

SO IT'S KIND OF -- MAYBE IT DIDN'T NEED TO TAKE SIX HOURS AND MAYBE SOME OF THE SOLUTIONS WERE RIGHT THERE, SO MAYBE THIS WAS A LITTLE TOO MUCH POLITICAL DOG FIGHT, BUT IT'S CALLED COMPROMISE AND LIKE RAY SAID, THAT'S, I THINK, ALL THAT MOST OF AMERICA WANTS RIGHT NOW.

AND IF BOTH TEAMS CAN SAY, LIKE, HEY, I GOT A WIN OUT OF THIS, THAT'S NOT A BAD THING.

THAT'S NOT A BAD THING AT ALL.

SO HEY, IF YOU'RE GOING TO GET THE JOB DONE, GET THE JOB DONE.

>> WELL -- I'M SORRY, BILL.

GO AHEAD.

>> I WAS GOING TO SAY, I'M HAPPY WITH IT, TOO, BUT IT'S GOING TO BE INTERESTING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT 10,000 PEOPLE GET $500 BECAUSE THERE'S AN AWFUL LOT OF PEOPLE WHO COULD USE $500.

DO YOU GIVE IT TO THE POOREST PEOPLE OR DOES IT HAVE TO BE SOMEBODY WHO WAS IMPACTED DIRECTLY BY COVID, SOMEONE WHO LOST THEIR JOB?

I DON'T KNOW THE DETAILS OF THAT, BUT IT WILL BE INTERESTING.

>> REALLY BROADCASTERS SHOULD BE FIRST IN LINE.

>> WE'VE HAD STIMULUS CHECKS FROM PRESIDENT BUSH, PRESIDENT TRUMP, PRESIDENT BIDEN BECAUSE OF COVID.

JEFFREY BOYD AND LEWIS REED WERE CERTAINLY NOT IN FAVOR OF IT JUST ON ITS MERITS BECAUSE THEY'RE SAYING THAT IT'S -- YOU CAN'T PROVE THAT IT'S GOING TO MAKE THAT MUCH OF A DIFFERENCE AND THAT IT WAS JUST GOOD MONEY AFTER BAD OR WHAT HAVE YOU.

WHAT I'M TRYING TO FIGURE OUT IS MAYOR JONES SAID THAT THIS WILL ADDRESS THE CRIME ISSUE AT -- OR THE ROOT CAUSE OF THE CRIME ISSUE IN THE CITY AND IT WILL KEEP PEOPLE IN THEIR HOMES.

AND I THINK THAT'S AN AWFUL LOT TO EXPECT OF A $500 CHECK.

I DON'T -- I HONESTLY DON'T SEE HOW $500 ADDRESSES THE ROOT CAUSES OF CRIME IN OUR CITY.

>> WELL, NO, THAT'S POLITICAL TALK.

IT WILL ADDRESS IT.

NOW, IT MAY BE ONE GAZILLIONth OF, YOU KNOW, IMPACT, BUT IT COULD -- IT COULD -- PROBABLY WILL MAKE SOME IMPACT.

SO I MEAN, I'M NOT SAYING IT'S GOING TO SOLVE CRIME.

>> I THINK IT MAKES THE POLITICIANS POPULAR WHEN THEY HAND OUT MONEY, THERE'S NO DOUBT, AND THAT'S WHY THERE WAS AN INTERESTING CAVEAT TO THIS MEASURE AND THAT WAS THAT NO NAME, IMAGE, OR LIKENESS OF ANY POLITICIAN COULD BE ATTACHED TO THOSE $500 CHECKS OR TO THE GIFT CARDS.

NOW, I DON'T -- DON'T GET ME WRONG.

A LOT OF PEOPLE COULD USE THAT MONEY, BUT THERE'S ALSO A TON OF LITTER OUT THERE AND IN THE 1930s, WE HAD THE WORKS PROGRESS ADMINISTRATION.

I WOULD HAVE LIKED TO HAVE SEEN SOME SORT OF GROUP OF PEOPLE GETTING PAID $500 TO CLEAN UP SOME OF OUR HIGHWAYS AND BYWAYS IN THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS.

>> LET ME POINT OUT, THEY DO HAVE -- AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS, BUT THEY HAVE A FAIRLY SPECIFIC PLAN AND LIKE BILL SAYS, IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE HOW IT IS IN PRACTICE, BUT IT'S NOT LIKE THEY'RE JUST SAYING -- I THINK IT'S FAMILIES AND THEY HAVE A BUNCH OF CRITERIA.

SO MY POINT IS, THEY GOT A PLAN.

WE'LL HAVE TO SEE IF IT WORKS.

I THINK IT DOES MATTER AND I THINK THAT POVERTY IS ONE OF THE INDICATORS OF CRIME.

>> OKAY, BUT -- >> TO THE EXTENT SOME PEOPLE ARE ABLE -- 500 MAY NOT SEEM LIKE A LOT TO EVERYBODY, BUT IT MIGHT BE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN KEEPING THE LIGHTS ON.

>> READING IN THE PAPER TODAY, BILL McCLELLAN, THAT THERE ARE 800 JOBS IN THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS THAT ARE NOT FILLED, AND THIS IS A STORY TAKING A LOOK AT HOW, BECAUSE THEY CAN'T FIND PEOPLE TO WORK AS TRASH HAULERS, THE CITY IS NO LONGER SEPARATING THE RECYCLE MATERIAL FROM THE TRASH.

IT'S ALL BEING COLLECTED TOGETHER, AT LEAST TEMPORARILY.

WHO KNOWS HOW LONG THIS IS GOING TO LAST, BUT ONE OF THE REASONS IS THEY CAN'T FIND TRASH HAULERS.

THERE'S ABOUT 30 OPENINGS THERE, BUT OVERALL IN THE CITY, 800 JOB OPENINGS AND IT IS KIND OF UNUSUAL, ISN'T IT, TO BE HANDING OUT CHECKS TO PEOPLE WHO CAN'T FIND WORK WHILE THE CITY ITSELF HAS 800 JOBS AVAILABLE.

>> OH, THERE'S A VERY INTERESTING STORY BECAUSE I WOULD THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, THE POLICE DEPARTMENT MIGHT HAVE TROUBLE FINDING ELIGIBLE CITY DWELLERS BECAUSE THEY MIGHT HAVE RECORDS OR SOMETHING, BUT YOU WOULDN'T HAVE THAT PROBLEM WITH TRASH HAULERS AND I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO WOULD REALLY LIKE A STEADY JOB WITH BENEFITS AND IT'S INCREDIBLE TO ME THAT WE HAVEN'T -- THAT THE CITY HAS NOT BEEN ABLE TO FILL THOSE JOBS.

AND HEATHER NAVARRO, THE 28th WARD ALDERMAN, SAID SHE WENT ONLINE TO SEE HOW EASY IT IS TO APPLY FOR A JOB AND SHE COULDN'T DO IT.

AND THEY QUOTED SOMEBODY SAYING WELL, THE SYSTEM IS FROM 1968.

AND I REMEMBER 1968, AND I GOT TIES FROM 1968, BUT YOU DON'T WANT TO HAVE A COMPUTER SYSTEM FROM 1968.

SO I THINK THE CITY OUGHT TO REALLY MAKE AN EFFORT TO HIRE PEOPLE AND GIVE THEM HONEST WORK, AND I'M SURE THAT THERE'S PLENTY OF PEOPLE WHO WOULD WANT THE TRASH HAULING JOBS AND SOME OF THE OTHER 800 JOBS.

IT'S -- >> I'M NOT SURE THAT IT'S A MATTER OF THE CITY NOT TRYING.

I THINK, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT TRASH HAULERS AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT POLICE OFFICERS AND HOW FAR DOWN WE ARE ON THAT SCORE AND THE I.T.

NEEDS OF THE CITY, THERE ARE -- AS CHARLIE SAID, AS YOU'VE ALL AGREED, THERE ARE ALMOST 1,000 POSITIONS OPEN IN THE CITY.

AND THEY -- PEOPLE OBVIOUSLY DON'T WANT THAT KIND OF WORK.

>> WELL, I CAN SEE I.T.

-- I CAN SEE A SHORTAGE OF I.T.

WORKERS BECAUSE MAYBE AN I.T.

WORKER COULD MAKE MORE IN PRIVATE INDUSTRY.

AND LIKE I SAID, I CAN SEE THE PROBLEM WITH THE POLICE DEPARTMENT.

BUT I DON'T SEE THE PROBLEM HIRING TRASH HAULERS.

>> THEY DON'T WANT TO -- >> THAT'S A GOOD JOB, WENDY.

>> LINDA THOMAS FROM THE PERSONNEL DEPARTMENT, IN THE POST-DISPATCH A COUPLE WEEKS AGO, SAID BECAUSE OF FEDERAL BENEFITS, THEY'RE COMING FROM WASHINGTON, D.C., PEOPLE ARE NOT AS MOTIVATED TO APPLY FOR SOME OF THESE JOBS.

I BELIEVE SHE MADE HER COMMENTS IN A POST-DISPATCH STORY WHEN IT WAS DESCRIBED HOW THEY COULDN'T FIND 911 DISPATCHERS.

>> BUT THEY'VE HAD THIS PROBLEM LONG BEFORE THE PANDEMIC, LONG BEFORE THE GOVERNMENT WAS GIVING $300 A WEEK EXTRA ON UNEMPLOYMENT.

THE 911 STUFF, THAT WENT SOUTH AS SOON AS THE CITY GOT CONTROL OF THE POLICE DEPARTMENT.

YOU KNOW, THEY SUDDENLY STRIPPED A LOT OF 911 WORKERS AND I'M SURE WE'VE BEEN SHORT GARBAGE HAULERS FOR A LONG TIME AS WELL.

>> I THINK WHAT THEY -- IF YOU WAIVED THE DRUG TEST FOR A LOT OF JOBS, A LOT MORE PEOPLE WOULD APPLY.

THAT'S JUST THE REALITY.

>> THAT'S TRUE.

>> AND THEN, TOO, I WANTED TO BE A JOURNALIST SINCE I WAS 12, BUT THE FIRST JOB -- AND MY MOM -- HI, MOM -- AS MY WITNESS, 5-YEAR-OLD ALVIN THOUGHT THE COOLEST THING IN THE WORLD WOULD BE TO BE A GARBAGE MAN, AND I KNOW THEY'RE SANITATION WORKERS NOW, THAT'S HOW WE KNOW THEM, BECAUSE THEY GOT TO RIDE ON THE BACK OF THE TRUCK.

NOW, TIMES HAVE CHANGED.

NOW I'M KIND OF LIKE THIS.

GOOD-PAYING JOB WITH BENEFITS?

I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE ARE HESITANT TO, YOU KNOW, LIKE FULFILL SOME OF THESE JOBS.

I MEAN, I DON'T GET IT.

>> BUT ME -- >> THE COMPUTER SYSTEM GOES BACK TO -- >> WE'VE ALL SEEN THE ONLINE REPORT OF PEOPLE SAYING THAT THEY'RE GIVING UP THEIR -- THEY'RE GIVING UP THEIR WHITE COLLAR JOBS, THEY'RE GIVING UP THEIR CORPORATE JOBS BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO DEAL WITH THE ADVERSITY IN THE WORKPLACE, AND I MEAN, THOSE ARE ACTUAL TERMS THAT ARE BEING THROWN AROUND.

ADVERSITY IN THE WORKPLACE.

I MEAN, THAT'S -- TO ME, THAT'S PART OF GOING TO WORK.

THERE'S GOING TO BE ADVERSITY, YOU KNOW.

YOU'RE PAID TO DO A JOB, SO IT SONET DEEM TO BE AN AND -- DOESN'T SEEM TO BE AN APPETITE FOR IT.

>> HEY, WHILE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE CITY AND WE'LL MOVE ON TO OTHER REGIONAL ISSUES IN JUST A MOMENT, ALVIN REID, THIS PAST WEEK MAYOR TISHAURA JONES AND CONGRESSMAN CORI BUSH VISITED DENVER TO TAKE A LOOK AT THE STAR PROGRAM THERE.

STAR STANDS FOR SUPPORT TEAM ASSISTANCE RESPONSE, A PROGRAM THAT SENDS SOCIAL WORKERS TO SOME, I GUESS -- TO SOME SITES THAT ORDINARILY WOULD HAVE BEEN VISITED BY POLICE.

IN THIS CASE, IT'S TRESPASSING OR WELFARE ISSUES OR IT COULD BE A SYRINGE FOUND ON THE STREET, THINGS LIKE THAT.

NOT THE MOST SERIOUS CRIMES.

MAYOR LYDA KREWSON HAD TWO PILOT PROGRAMS ALONG THESE LINES.

LET ME ASK YOU.

DO YOU THINK THIS TRIP WILL BEAR FRUIT?

>> I THINK IT COULD.

I THINK YOU GO TO -- GO FOR WHAT'S THE SUCCESSFUL FORECAST AND YOU GO AND FIND OUT WHAT THEY'RE DOING.

THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THE MAYOR AND CORI BUSH AND A LOT OF POLITICIANS THAT ARE REPUBLICAN OR DEMOCRATIC ACTUALLY KIND OF ADHERE TO, MAYBE WE DON'T NEED TO SEND THE POLICE TO EVERY SITUATION.

AND TO FIND OUT THE BEST WAY TO DO IT ON A TRIP TO DENVER, I MEAN, EVEN IF THEY -- YOU KNOW, OVERNIGHT, I REALLY DON'T THINK THAT'S SETTING THE WHOLE BUDGET BACK THAT MUCH.

NOW, DON'T HOLD ME TO THIS, BUT I BELIEVE THERE MAY HAVE BEEN SOME TRIPS INVOLVED TO CHINA AND PLACES LIKE THAT DURING PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATIONS, YOU KNOW, WHEN WE'RE GOING TO BE THE TRADE PARTNER WITH CHINA AND -- >> CHINA HUB.

>> YEAH, EXACTLY, AND WHERE DID THAT GO AND WHERE DID A LOT OF PROJECT WHERE I'M SURE A LOT OF VISITING WENT ON THAT WERE MUCH, MUCH MORE COSTLY THAN AN OVERNIGHT TRIP TO DENVER.

>> I DON'T EVEN THINK IT'S -- GO AHEAD, RAY, I'M SORRY.

>> NO, YOU'RE GOOD.

>> I DON'T THINK IT'S A MATTER OF MONEY.

I JUST THINK IT'S -- I THINK IT'S THE APPLES/ORANGES COMPARISON.

ST. LOUIS IS IN THE MIDDLE OF A CRISIS IN TERMS OF CRIME AND HOMICIDE NUMBERS, AND DENVER IS NOT ON ANY OF THE FBI'S MOST DANGEROUS CITIES LISTS.

SO I COULD CARE LESS WHAT IT COSTS TO GO OUT THERE.

I JUST -- I DON'T KNOW THAT IT'S AN APPLICABLE -- THE STAR PROGRAM IS APPLICABLE TO WHAT WE'RE DEALING WITH HERE IN ST. LOUIS.

>> I'M SURE THEY GOT PLENTY OF CRIME IN DENVER AND THEY'VE GOT -- IF IT'S A BEST PRACTICES THING, YOU CAN ARGUE SOME OF IT'S SYMBOLIC AND POLITICAL FIGURES GO TO THESE THINGS, BUT I DON'T THINK YOU SHOULD ALWAYS RULE OUT TRADE STUFF BECAUSE SOMETIMES THAT ACTUALLY, AS FARFETCHED AS IT MAY SEEM, SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO HAVE YOUR CHIEF EXECUTIVES, WHETHER IT'S THE GOVERNOR OR MAYOR, WHATEVER, SHOW UP AND TALK TO TRADE DELEGATIONS.

I MEAN, THAT'S WHAT THEY DO.

JUST BECAUSE IT SOUNDS LIKE AN EXOTIC TRIP DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN YOU SHOULDN'T DO IT.

I MEAN, BECAUSE IF OTHER CITIES HAVE PEOPLE GOING, THEIR MAYORS GOING, THEY CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

YOU HAVE TO PICK -- THAT'S PART OF -- IF GOVERNMENT IS GOING TO BE IN THE ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT BUSINESS, YOU CAN'T SAY, OH NO, WE CAN'T GO OVERSEAS BECAUSE OF THE COST OF THE TRIP.

A LOT OF THOSE, THOSE ARE -- SOMETIMES THOSE TRIPS CAN BE SUBSIDIZED BY PRIVATE SECTOR FOLKS.

AND I HAVE NO -- THIS IS HARDLY A MAJOR TRIP.

I THINK SYMBOLICALLY, IT MAKES SENSE.

>> I NEED TO GO TO SAN FRANCISCO AND VISIT THEIR PBS STATION, SO CHARLIE, LET'S WORK THAT OUT, OKAY?

>> WE'LL HAVE A GOOD TIME AT THE DENVER PBS STATION, IF YOU FOLLOW MY DRIFT.

>> I WOULD TAKE IT.

>> I THINK IT'S GREAT THAT THEY'RE LEARNING BEST PRACTICES AND I DON'T THINK THE COST MATTERS AT ALL, BUT WENDY, YOU HAVE A POINT.

LAST YEAR DENVER HAD ABOUT 90 HOSM SIDES.

THEIR POPULATION IS ABOUT 70,000.

IN A TYPICAL YEAR, DENVER HAS ABOUT 60 HOMICIDE AND YEAR, SO IT IS KIND OF APPLES AND ORANGES BECAUSE WE HAD 260 HOMICIDES.

WE WERE DEALING WITH REAL VIOLENT CRIME THAT DENVER DOESN'T SEE AND THE STAR PROGRAM HAD ABOUT 1300 RESPONSES LAST YEAR WHICH, WOW, THAT'S A FRACTION OF THE CALLS THAT POLICE AT THE ST. LOUIS METROPOLITAN POLICE DEPARTMENT HAVE TO RESPOND TO.

>> IF YOU WANT -- IF YOU'RE GOING FOR BEST PRACTICES, WOULD YOU WANT SOMEBODY THAT'S HAVING BETTER OUTCOMES?

I DON'T THINK THAT -- THE IDEA THAT DENVER IS SOME PLACE WHERE, YOU KNOW -- I MEAN, I'VE BEEN THERE.

DENVER IS GREAT.

THERE'S ALL KINDS OF PRACTICES THAT GO INTO PRIMARY, BUT THE FACT THAT THEY HAVE A LOW ONE IS NOT AN ARGUMENT NOT TO GO.

>> THEY HAVE 700,000 PEOPLE, WE HAVE 300,000 IN OUR CITY.

>> IT'S NOT APPLES AND ORANGES.

>> CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG.

ISN'T THERE A GUY BY THE NAME OF WILL PINCKNEY WITH THE MAYOR'S OFFICE?

HE LAUNCHED THIS PROGRAM A COUPLE OF TIMES IN ST. LOUIS AND HE'S A FORMER NEW YORK COP WHO I THINK WAS PROFILED IN ONE LOCAL PAPER RECENTLY IF I'M NOT MISTAKEN.

HEY, LET'S TALK TO YOU, WENDY WIESE, ABOUT WHAT I THINK IS A TRULY UNPRECEDENTED STORY.

THIS IS A BATTLE BETWEEN THE NATURAL RESOURCE DEFENSE COUNCIL AND FIRE.

FIRE HAS A SUBSIDIARY THAT RUNS A PIPELINE BETWEEN HERE AND IT GOES THROUGH ILLINOIS, UP NORTH TO GET SOME OF THAT FRACKING NATURAL GAS, AND THAT FIRE PIPELINE WAS REVIEWED BY THE FEDERAL ENERGY REGULATORY COMMISSION AND APPROVED.

HOWEVER, JUST RECENTLY, THE WASHINGTON, D.C., COURT OF APPEALS DECIDED TO REVOKE THE CERTIFICATION FOR THAT PIPELINE, SAYING THAT FERC, THE REGULATORY BODY, DID NOT FOLLOW ITS OWN RULES.

AND AS A RESULT, THERE'S A STORY IN SUNDAY'S POST-DISPATCH THAT THIS PIPELINE BRINGING NATURAL GAS TO ST. LOUIS MIGHT BE MOTHBALLED AND THEY'RE EVEN TALKING ABOUT FILLING IT WITH SAND BECAUSE IMPLODING IT WOULD BE ANOTHER ENVIRONMENTAL DISASTER.

HOW DO YOU FEEL?

DO YOU THINK THAT SINCE THE REGULATORY BODY VIOLATED ITS OWN RULES, ALLEGEDLY, THAT THE PIPELINE SHOULD BE TAKEN DOWN?

>> WELL, I MEAN, SHAME ON THE REGULATORY BODY THEN.

BUT YOU DON'T PENALIZE THE NATURAL GAS CUSTOMERS HERE IN THE MIDWEST.

THE WHOLE POINT WAS TO AVOID A SITUATION OR THEY HAD AVOIDED A SITUATION SIMILAR TO WHAT WE SAW IN TEXAS IN FEBRUARY DURING A DEEP FREEZE IN WHICH PEOPLE LOST THEIR LIVES, PEOPLE WERE FOR A VARIETY OF DIFFERENT REASONS AND THINGS THAT THEY HAD SIGNED UP FOR IN TERMS OF BUDGET BILLING, THEY WERE RECEIVING 12 AND $15,000 UTILITY BILLS.

AND I'M SORRY THAT SOME OF THE MARKET ANALYSIS THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN PERFORMED WASN'T PERFORMED, BUT THAT'S NOT, IN MY WAY OF LOOKING AT THINGS, THAT'S NOT ON FIRE.

THAT'S ON FERC.

>> WELL, THAT'S -- I MEAN, THIS ISN'T SOME, LIKE, LIBERAL THINK TANK THAT MADE THIS DECISION.

THE COURT OF APPEALS, OKAY?

THESE ARE JUDGES LOOKING AT THE LAW AS TO HOW -- AND OBVIOUSLY THEY WERE REVIEWING IT IF THEY'RE APPELLATE JUDGES.

I DON'T KNOW WHICH SIDE APPEALED, BUT THEY LOOKED AT THE LAW AS IT WAS APPLIED BY LOWER COURT JUDGES AND MADE A DECISION.

YOU CAN SAY SHAME ON THEM.

IF THEY DIDN'T DO IT RIGHT, THEN THE JUDGES ARE SAYING YOU GOT TO DO IT RIGHT.

IT'S NOT LIKE THERE'S SOME WRONGDOING BY THE APPELLATE COURT.

>> I THINK THIS IS INTENDED TO HAVE A CHILLING IMPACT ON ANYBODY WHO WANTS TO INVEST IN PIPELINES, PERIOD.

PERIOD.

>> YOU CAN'T REFUTE THE LAW, WENDY.

THESE ARE JUDGES.

THE APPELLATE COURT HAS GOT TO BE REVIEWING BY DEFINITION A LOWER COURT THAT FOUND THAT THE REGULATORS -- AND IT'S NOT EXACTLY A NEWS FLASH THAT IN THE TRUMP ERA, THE REGULATORS WERE LOOKING THE OTHER WAY.

THEY'RE SAYING YOU CAN'T DO THAT, AND SO I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT THE ARGUMENT IS WITH -- IS THE ARGUMENT THAT THE JUDGES SHOULD LOOK THE OTHER WAY TOO?

THEY JUST ENFORCE THE LAW.

>> DONE!

IT'S DONE.

THE PIPELINE -- I MEAN, IT'S COMPLETED.

IT'S DELIVERING NATURAL GAS.

>> WELL, THEY FOLLOWED THE LAW AND IF THE REGULATORS DIDN'T, THEN IT'S THE RIGHT DECISION AND WE -- WE CAN'T HAVE EVERY DECISION COME DOWN TO, WELL, YOU KNOW, IT'S BETTER FOR OUR ECONOMY.

THERE IS THE ENVIRONMENTAL CONCERNS AND THEY'RE THERE FOR A REASON AND IF THEY DIDN'T FOLLOW THE RULES, THEN THIS IS THE RIGHT DECISION.

>> POLITICS DOESN'T PLAY INTO THIS AT ALL, RIGHT, RAY?

THIS IS PURELY LEGAL.

>> WITH THE COURT OF APPEALS?

I DON'T THINK SO.

MAYBE IT DID.

>> OKAY, OKAY.

>> I DON'T KNOW.

AGAIN, THE COURT OF APPEALS, WHICH IS, YOU KNOW, NOT REALLY KNOWN AS BEING ALL THAT LIBERAL -- >> LET ME JUST JUMP IN.

>> REVIEWING A LOWER COURT'S DECISION ABOUT WHETHER THE LAW WAS FOLLOWED.

IF IT WASN'T, THEN YOU GOT TO EITHER FOLLOW THE LAW OR DUMP SAND IN IT, I GUESS.

>> WELL, TRULY UNPRECEDENTED.

I'VE NEVER HEARD OF A GAS PIPELINE BEING MOTH BALLED.

WE'LL SEE WHAT HAPPENS, RAY.

WHILE WE HAVE YOU FRONT AND CENTER, LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THE SENTENCE THIS WEEK OF RANDY HAYES, THE ST. LOUIS POLICE OFFICER WHO PUBLIC HEALTH PLEADED GUILTY IN THE BEATING OF HIS COLLEAGUE, MR. LUTHER HALL, AND HE RECEIVED FOUR YEARS.

A JUST SENTENCE?

>> WELL, IT GOES BY -- IT'S A FEDERAL CASE, SO IT GOES BY THE POINT SYSTEM.

THERE'S POINTS ADDED FOR COOPERATION, POINTS TAKEN AWAY FOR THIS AND POINTS ADDED FOR THAT.

THEY START WITH A RANGE AND, YOU KNOW, THERE'S NOT THAT MUCH SUBJECTIVITY.

THERE'S SOME, BUT, YOU KNOW, THE JUDGE -- I HAVE TO SAY, I WAS SURPRISED BY IT.

I THOUGHT IT WAS MORE THAN I THOUGHT HE WOULD GET.

I WOULD BE CONCERNED IF I WAS DUSTIN BOONE WHO BASICALLY WAS TRIED FOR THE SAME -- IF THE PAPER HAD IT RIGHT, PRETTY MUCH TRIED ON THE SAME CHARGES THAT MR. HAYES WAS JUST SENTENCED, AND HE COOPERATED.

I WOULDN'T BE SLEEPING TOO WELL IF I WAS, YOU KNOW, HAD THIS GONE TO A JURY TRIAL AND BEEN FOUND GUILTY OF THOSE.

BUT ONCE AGAIN, YOU DON'T KNOW WHERE BOONE VERSUS HAYES ARE ON THE SENTENCING GUIDELINES.

IT'S A LOT OF -- A LOT OF IT IS NOT SUBJECTIVE.

SOME OF IT IS, BUT THEY'VE GOT A RANGE AND HE STAYED WITHIN THE RANGE.

THE PROSECUTORS WANTED SIX.

AGAIN, I WAS SURPRISED BY IT, BUT -- >> HOW ABOUT YOU, BILL McCLELLAN?

>> I THOUGHT, YOU KNOW, THE SUBJECTIVE PART, I DON'T -- THE WHOLE POINT OF GETTING PEOPLE TO TESTIFY IS YOU'RE GOING TO GIVE THEM A BREAK ON THE SENTENCING, ESPECIALLY IN A CASE LIKE THIS WHERE IT'S A COP TESTIFYING AGAINST OTHER COPS, AND I HATE TO SEE THE GUY WHO TESTIFIED GETTING MORE TIME THAN THE PEOPLE WHO WITH -- PEOPLE WHO WENT TO TRIAL.

IF WHAT WE WANT IN THE FUTURE IS OTHER COPS TO TESTIFY ABOUT BAD CONDUCT OF THEIR COLLEAGUES, THIS ISN'T A VERY GOOD WAY TO DO IT.

>> IF A JUDGE GOES ABOVE OR BELOW THE -- THE WAY I UNDERSTAND IT, PARTICULARLY ABOVE IT, YOU -- AND I AGREE WITH YOU, BASICALLY.

SURE, YOU WOULD EXPECT.

THAT'S WHY I SAY I WOULD THINK MR.

BOON HAS GOT TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT THAT PERHAPS, ALTHOUGH I DON'T KNOW IF IT WORKS THAT WAY.

IT IS THE POINT SYSTEM.

IT IS THE GUIDELINES.

IF THE JUDGE VIOLATES -- >> BUT THEY CAN GO ABOVE AND BELOW, RAY.

>> BUT IF THEY DO -- >> NOT ONLY CAN THEY GO ABOVE OR BELOW, BUT LIKE JOHN RALLO, IF LATER RANDY HAYES HAS HE HAS SOME SORT OF ILLNESS, WHO KNOWS IF HE'LL GET OUT OR IF HE GOES TO SOME SORT OF REHAB PROGRAM LIKE STEVE STENGER DID, MAYBE HE'LL BE OUT IN TWO YEARS.

>> I'M NOT EVEN DEFENDING THE JUDGE.

I'M JUST SAYING IF THEY DO, THEY'RE MORE SUBJECT TO GETTING OVERTURN TO APPEAL AND A LOT OF JUDGES DON'T WANT THAT TO HAPPEN TO THEM.

>> OKAY, SPEAKING OF THE COURTS, BILL, EUGENE KROGG JR.

RELEASED A EXPLETIVE IN COURT, BASICALLY EXPLETIVE YOU, THIS JUDGE GAVE THE ATTORNEY A WEEK IN JAIL FOR CURSING AT HIM.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> WELL, I DON'T KNOW EITHER OF THOSE FELLOWS.

I CALLED UP A GOOD FRIEND OF MINE AND HE DIDN'T KNOW THE LAWYER AND HE DIDN'T KNOW THE JUDGE, BUT HE KNEW THE CURSOR AND HE SAID THAT YOU -- 75 YEARS OLD, YOUNG MAN IN HIS PRIME, AND HE SAID THAT HE'S A GOOD FELLOW AND HE SAID, I'D REALLY LIKE TO KNOW WHAT WAS BEHIND THIS.

BUT AS FAR AS THE JUDGE PUTTING THE GUY IN JAIL, I THINK THAT THERE SHOULD BE DECORUM IN COURT AND LIKE I THINK A JUDGE, YOU KNOW, OUGHT TO BE ABLE TO SAY TO SOMEBODY, I DON'T LIKE THE WAY YOU'RE DRESSED.

THAT'S NOT RESPECTFUL TO THE COURT.

AND IF SOMEBODY CURSES AT A JUDGE, I THINK THE JUDGE IS WELL WITHIN HIS OR HER RIGHTS TO SAY I'M NOT GOING TO TOLERATE THAT AND TO THROW THE GUY IN JAIL.

I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT.

>> WELL, I JUST THINK A WEEK IS TOO MUCH.

IF HE TOLD HIM, HEY, GO TO HADES AND GET ONE DAY, TOLD HIM TO KISS SOMETHING, YOU GET THREE DAYS.

IT WASN'T JUST THE EXTREME LANGUAGE HE USED.

I KNOW SOMEBODY WHO HAD JURY DUTY THIS WEEK AND SOMEBODY IN THE LARGE JURY FOOL REFUSED TO PUT -- POOL REFUSED TO PUT A MASK ON.

APPARENTLY THEY TALKED TO HIM AND JUST ESCORTED HIM OUT OF THE BUILDING.

TO ME, HE SHOULD HAVE GOT A WEEK.

>> MAYBE A WEEK IS A LITTLE LONG, ALVIN, BUT IF I WAS A JUDGE, I'D WANT IT KNOWN THAT YOU DON'T COME IN AND CURSE AT ME BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE MY DECISIONS.

>> WHY DID -- WHO CUSSED OUT THE LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEE DURING THE ERIC GREITENS STUFF?

WHAT ATTORNEY WAS THAT?

WAS IT AL WATKINS?

NOTHING HAPPENED TO HIM.

>> I AGREE WITH ALVIN THAT IT SEEMS A LITTLE MUCH, A WEEK.

A LITTLE SHOCK TIME FOR 24 HOURS, BUT I THINK YOU MAKE A CASE FOR MAYBE THERE NEEDS TO BE SENTENCING GUIDELINES FOR CURSE WORDS, YOU KNOW.

LIKE HAVE A SCALE.

GEORGE CARLIN'S SEVEN DIRTY WORDS GET A CERTAIN -- >> I REMEMBER BEING IN COURT WHEN A DEFENDANT SAID TO THE JUDGE, YOU'RE A LYING SOB AND THE JUDGE JUST IGNORED HIM AND HE SAID YOU'RE A PERSIDIOUS SOB AND THE JUDGE SENT HIM TO JAIL.

I ASKED THE JUDGE ABOUT IT AND HE SAID I CAN IGNORE IT, BUT IF I HAVE TO LOOK UP A WORD, HE'S GOING TO JAIL.

>> WELL, JUSTICE IS SACRED.

YOU HAVE THESE COURTHOUSE SHOOTINGS, YOU HAVE TO HAVE THAT DECORUM, BUT THEY SHOULD HAVE SOCKED HIM WITH A FINE AS WELL.

>> SO MUCH FOR FREEDOM OF SPEECH IN A COURTROOM.

THANK YOU, EVERYBODY, FOR YOUR OPINION.

DON'T GO AWAY.

IN A MOMENT, WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT MAKING OUR AREA WALKABLE AND BIKEABLE AND HOW THAT NIGHT NEED TO MORE ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT.

CINDY MENSE OF TRAILNET AND SARAH ARNOSKY OF GREATER ST. LOUIS INC. ARE JOINING OUR FOUNDERS, BILL McCLELLAN AND RAY HARTMANN, ON DONNYBROOK NEXT UP.

>> Announcer: DONNYBROOK IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE SUPPORT OF THE BETSY AND THOMAS PATTERSON FOUNDATION AND THE MEMBERS OF NINE PBS.

>> WELCOME TO NEXT UP.

WE'RE JOINED TONIGHT BY CINDY MENSE OF TRAILNET AND SARAH ARNOSKY OF GREATER ST. LOUIS, INC.

WELCOME TO YOU BOTH.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> SO TELL US, YOU'RE INVOLVED IN THE BUSINESS OF MAKING ST. LOUIS A BIKING AND WALKABLE REGION.

TELL US HOW YOU'RE GOING ABOUT DOING THAT.

>> GREAT.

THANKS, RAY.

I'LL GET STARTED.

I'M CINDY MENSE, THE CEO OF TRAILNET, AND TRAIL NET, WE'RE A 32-YEAR-OLD ORGANIZATION IN ST. LOUIS, A BIKEABLE/PEDESTRIAN ADVOCACY ORG.

IT WORKS TO MAKE THE STREETS SAFER FOR PEOPLE TO WALKING BIKE, AND USE TRANSIT AS A WAY OF LIFE.

WE HAVE A TERRIFIC PARTNERSHIP WITH GREATER ST. LOUIS, INC., ON TRYING TO MOVE BETTER INFRASTRUCTURE FORWARD.

SARAH?

>> THANKS, CINDY.

YEAH, MY NAME IS SARAH ARNOSKY, I'M VICE PRESIDENT OF GREATER ST. LOUIS INC.

I BELIEVE YOU HAD OUR CEO, JASON HALL, ON THE SHOW A COUPLE WEEKS AGO.

HAPPY TO BE HERE.

AS CINDY MENTIONED, FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE OF GREATER ST. LOUIS, INC., WHICH IS AN ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT CIVIC ORGANIZATION, WE RECOGNIZE THE VALUE OF HAVING A BIKE AND PEDESTRIAN FRIENDLY COMMUNITY AND HOW THAT CONTRIBUTES IN MANY WAYS, BUT PARTICULARLY IT'S ECONOMIC IMPACT.

AND SO REALLY WANTING TO PLAY A CRITICAL ROLE AND HELP GET THINGS MOVING FORWARD TO MAKE SURE WE ARE KEEPING UP WITH OUR PEER CITIES AND MAKING ST. LOUIS ONE OF THE BEST BIKING COMMUNITIES AND CITIES AROUND THE -- REGIONS, REALLY, AROUND THE COUNTRY.

>> YOU INDICATED YOU'RE 32 -- BILL, GO AHEAD.

>> NO, I WAS JUST GOING TO SAY, I LOVE TO WALK.

I'M A WALKER, AND WHEN I WAS WORKING DOWNTOWN ALL THE TIME, I WOULD OFTEN GO AND WALK ALONG THE RIVER.

THERE'S A RIVER TRAIL JUST NORTH OF DOWNTOWN, AND I'D WALK DOWN TO PRODUCE ROW SOMETIMES, AND THE PROBLEM WITH IT IS THE FLOOD WALL GENERALLY SEPARATES THE WALKER OR THE BIKER.

THERE WOULD BE BICYCLISTS, FROM THE RIVER.

I THINK TO MYSELF, HERE'S THIS GREAT RESOURCE, THE RIVER, AND I'M ON THE RIVER TRAIL, BUT I CAN'T SEE THE RIVER MOST OF THE TIME.

I MEAN, HOW CAN WE UTILIZE OUR RIVER A LITTLE BIT BETTER?

>> YEAH, THAT'S A REALLY GREAT QUESTION.

SOMETHING THAT, YOU KNOW -- ONE OF THE THINGS THAT GREATER ST. LOUIS, INC., HAS ALSO PAR TAKEN IN THE DESIGN OF DOWNTOWN ST. LOUIS COMPREHENSIVE PLAN.

ONE OF THE KEY STRATEGIES THAT WAS IDENTIFIED WAS HOW DO WE RE-ENGAGE AND CELEBRATE OUR CONNECTION TO THE RIVER.

SO YOU DO HAVE THE GREENWAY THAT GOES ALONG THE RIVER, BUT I TOTALLY HEAR YOU THAT THERE'S A WALL THAT DOES BLOCK THE VIEW AND THAT CONNECTION TO THE RIVER.

I KNOW THAT THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF DIFFERENT OPPORTUNITIES.

I KNOW THAT CINDY AT TRAILNET, THEY HELP COLLECT FOLKS TO GO ON RIVER RIDES.

I DON'T KNOW IF, CINDY, YOU WANT TO SPEAK TO THAT AS WELL.

>> SURE.

I JUST WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE RIVERFRONT TRAIL IS A TRAIL THAT TRAILNET ESTABLISHED IN PARTNERSHIP WITH THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS MANY YEARS AGO, SO THAT'S A LEGACY PROJECT OF OURS.

IT DOES NEED -- IT NEEDS CARE AND ATTENTION SO THAT PEOPLE CONTINUE TO USE IT AND FEEL SAFE IN THAT AREA.

IT DOES CONTINUE TO BE A BIT OF A CHALLENGE.

WHEN THE RIVERFRONT WAS REDONE, WE DO HAVE SOME REALLY GREAT INFRASTRUCTURE THAT TRB PUT IN ALONG LEWIS K. SULLIVAN DRIVE AND THAT CERTAINLY HAS HELPED WITH THAT CONNECTION.

>> FOR THOSE THAT DON'T FOLLOW YOUR WORK, HOW MUCH -- THERE'S TOO MANY PEOPLE THAT DON'T REALLY KEEP UP WITH EVERYTHING THAT'S GOING ON.

HOW MUCH DIFFERENT IS ST. LOUIS TODAY THAN IN 1989 WHEN TRAILNET WAS FOUNDED?

WHAT -- CAN YOU POINT TO, WHAT HAVE WE DONE TO DEVELOP OVER THAT PERIOD?

>> SURE.

SO ST. LOUIS HAS REALLY CHANGED OVER THE YEARS.

ONE THING THAT WE KNOW IS THAT POPULATION-WISE, THIS CITY WAS BUILT FOR ABOUT A MILLION PEOPLE AND AS WE LOSE POPULATION, WE STILL HAVE THESE ROADWAYS, THESE BIG WIDE ROADWAYS WHERE THE STREETCARS USED TO BE, SO YOU'VE GOT STREETS THAT ARE 40 AND 50 FEET WIDE THAT ARE ACTUALLY CONNECTING JUST NEIGHBORHOODS.

AND SO WE HAVE THIS GREAT STREET GRID THAT ALSO CAN BE -- THE STREET GRID COULD BE USED IN A WAY TO MAKE SURE ROOM FOR PEDESTRIANS AND CYCLISTS TO FEEL SAFER ON THE ROADWAYS.

SO WE'RE MAINTAINING A LOT OF ROADWAY AND THERE'S ROOM TO ADD IN INFRASTRUCTURE THAT WOULD MAKE IT SAFER FOR PEOPLE WALKING AND BIKING.

SO THE CHANGES THAT HAVE HAPPENED OVER THE YEARS, WE USED TO BE HAPPY WITH JUST A PAINTED BIKE LANE ON THE ROAD OR SOME SHARROWS, BUT THE NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF TRANSPORTATION OFFICIALS HAVE UPGRADED THE TYPE OF INFRASTRUCTURE THAT IS GOING TO KEEP PEOPLE SAFEST.

AND SO NOW WHAT WE'RE LOOKING FOR ARE WHAT WE CALL PROTECTED BIKE LANES OR CYCLE TRACKS.

SO THAT WAS -- THAT'S A PROJECT THAT, TOGETHER WITH GREATER ST. LOUIS, INC., TRAILNET HELPED PROMOTE THIS TOWER GROVE CONNECTOR.

YOU ARE GOING TO SEE SOME OF THE BEST INFRASTRUCTURE IN ST. LOUIS FOR KEEPING FOLKS SAFE WHILE WALKING AND BIKING WHERE THEY'RE PHYSICALLY SEPARATED FROM TRAFFIC.

THOSE ARE THE KINDS OF INFRASTRUCTURE NOW THAT WE'RE SEEING MORE AND MORE OF.

THERE'S ONE PLANNED FOR 20th STREET, ONE PLANNED FOR TUCKER BOULEVARD.

BOTH OF THOSE ARE FUNDED AS WELL AS TOWER GROVE, THE TOWER GROVER CONNECTOR.

SO WE'RE STARTING TO SEE A SHIFT IN THAT DIRECTION.

MAYBE YOU LIVE BY UNION BOULEVARD.

THE CITY HAS PUT IN A PROTECTED BIKEWAY AND THEY'RE TESTING OUT NEW INFRASTRUCTURE.

THESE THINGS ARE CALLED ARMADILLOS, THESE RUBBER PROTECTORS THAT ARE IN THE STREET OR THESE MOUNDS THAT WOULD KEEP CARS FROM GOING INTO THE BIKE LANE.

SO IT USED TO BE ENOUGH JUST TO HAVE ROOM FOR A BIKE, BUT NOW WITH THE SIZE OF CARS AND DISTRACTED DRIVING, WHAT PEOPLE REALLY ARE DESIRING IS MORE PROTECTED INFRASTRUCTURE AND IT'S JUST REALLY EXCITING TO SEE AN ORGANIZATION LIKE GREATER ST. LOUIS, INC., EMBRACE THIS TYPE OF INFRASTRUCTURE.

>> YEAH, I MEAN, WE'D LOVE TO SEE -- YOU KNOW, THINKING ABOUT THE NEIGHBORHOOD THAT THE MDA IS GOING TO, 20th STREET IS A DIRECT ROUTE UP TO THAT.

THE NEW JOBS AT THE MDA, BUT ALSO HOW THAT'S GOING TO SPUR ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT ALONG 20th STREET.

WE'VE SEEN THAT IN A LOT OF OTHER COMMUNITIES WHERE YOU'RE CREATING THIS AMENITY THAT IS EXCITING FOR PEOPLE THAT ALREADY LIVE THERE, BUT ALSO ATTRACTS NEW RESIDENTS AND EMPLOYEES, WHICH THEN ATTRACTS EMPLOYERS, WHICH THEN ATTRACTS INVESTMENT AND MORE TAX REVENUE.

IT'S REALLY A CYCLICAL PROCESS THAT DOES HAVE MULTIPLE BENEFITS IN ADDITION TO CREATING A SAFE ROUTE TO GET FROM POINT A TO POINT B.

>> AND RAY, MOST OF THESE CONNECTIONS ARE CONNECTING NORTH AND SOUTH INTO AREAS OF STRENGTH.

SO ST. LOUIS TENDS TO BE AN EAST-WEST CITY, RIGHT?

OUR BEST CONNECTIONS, YOU'RE GOING TO SEE GOING EAST TO WEST.

SO A LOT OF TIMES NORTH AND SOUTH IS CUT OUT.

SO BEING ABLE TO HAVE THIS TYPE OF INFRASTRUCTURE TO CONNECT PEOPLE INTO AREAS OF STRENGTH, CONNECT THEM INTO TRANSIT, CAN REALLY BE A GAME CHANGER.

>> WILL YOU BE, LIKE, RUNNING BIKE PATHS LIKE WHERE THE MDA IS?

IS THAT -- >> 20th STREET IS -- >> WHAT'S THAT?

>> 20th STREET HAS BEEN FUNDED.

>> HOW FAR NORTH DOES IT GO?

>> IT WILL REACH THE MDA.

STARTING NOW IN JEFFERSON AND 20th STREET AND PRIMARILY IT WILL BE A PROTECTED CYCLE TRACK, BUT THEIR DESIGN STILL NEEDS TO HAPPEN.

>> AND HOW FAR SOUTH -- >> WE NEED TO MEET WITH THE COMMUNITY TO FIND OUT MORE ABOUT WHAT THEIR NEEDS ARE.

>> AND HOW ABOUT SOUTH?

THE SAME WAY, DID YOU DETERMINE HOW FAR -- >> THAT WILL BE TO UNION STATION.

>> YEAH, THAT WILL BE A NICE CONNECTION INTO THE OTHER MAJOR GREENWAY, THE BROOKLINE GREENWAY, SO REALLY THINKING AS CINDY MENTIONED, HOW ARE WE KNITTING NEIGHBORHOODS NORTH AND SOUTH AND BEING IN CLOSE PARTNERSHIP WITH THE FOLKS OVER AT THE GREENWAY TO MAKE SURE THESE ALL COMPLEMENT EACH OTHER AND CREATE A BROADER NETWORK THROUGHOUT THE CITY.

>> TO GO A LITTLE FURTHER AFIELD, THERE'S THE KATY TRAIL, CHI LIKE IT IMMENSELY -- WHICH I LIKE THE KATY TRAIL IMMENSELY AND I'VE WALKED IT A LONG WAY, BUT DO WE HAVE A WAY TO BICYCLISTS TO GET FROM ST. LOUIS TO THE KATY TRAIL EASILY?

I'M NOT A BICYCLIST, BUT FOR THE BICYCLIST TO GET TO THE KATY TRAIL AND ZIP DOWN TO DEFIANCE OR HERMAN SOUNDS LIKE A GREAT TRIP AND I DON'T KNOW HOW EASY IT IS TO GET FROM THE CITY TO THE KATY TRAIL ON A BICYCLE.

>> THAT IS A GOOD QUESTION, BILL.

OBVIOUSLY IF YOU START IN ST. CHARLES WHERE THE TRAIL STARTS -- >> THAT'S WHERE I START WALKING, BUT I DRIVE TO ST. CHARLES.

FRIENDS WHO ARE CYCLISTS, HOW WOULD YOU BICYCLE THERE?

>> PERSONALLY, I'VE TAKEN THE BUS TO CHESTERFIELD AND HOPPED ON TO THE TRAIL IN CHESTERFIELD TO GET THERE, BUT YOU'RE RIGHT, IT COULD CERTAINLY BE PRIORITIZED.

SOME PEOPLE WILL USE THE TRAIN AND THEY'LL TAKE THE TRAIN TO WASHINGTON, MISSOURI, AND THEN TRY AND GET TO THE TRAIL FROM THERE IF FOLKS DON'T WANT TO GET IN THE CAR.

HOW HAVE YOU DONE IT, SARAH?

>> UNFORTUNATELY, THERE'S NOT A GREAT CYCLING OR PEDESTRIAN ROUTE FROM THE CITY ITSELF, BUT YOU BRING UP A GOOD POINT WITH THE KATY TRAIL, WHAT A WONDERFUL ASSET IT IS FOR THE REGION AND WE DO KNOW, COMPETING WITH SITE SELECTORS, EVERYTHING FROM THE KATY TRAIL DOWN TO THESE SECOND BIKEWAYS ARE JUST IMPORTANT ASSETS SO I THINK AS YOU'RE MENTIONING, LINKING THEM TOGETHER WOULD BE A GREAT FUTURE PROJECT.

>> HOW DO YOU DECIDE WHERE TO PUT THESE?

IN OTHER WORDS, IS IT -- YOU TALK ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, WHICH IS GREAT, BUT THESE -- IT'S SORT OF A CHICKEN AND AN EGG QUESTION.

DO YOU LOOK FOR PLACES THAT HAVE ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT TO SUPPORT AND COVER SUCH AS LIKE FOR EXAMPLE WHEN THE NGA IS BUILT, YOU OBVIOUSLY WOULD HAVE A PLACE TO GO TO, OR DOES IT GO IN THE OTHER DIRECTION WHERE YOU JUST DECIDE WHERE IT NEEDS TO GO AND HOPE THAT DEVELOPMENT SPRINGS UP AROUND IT?

>> RAY, IT REALLY BEGAN -- SO TRAILNET BEGAN THIS EFFORT IN 2016.

WE LAUNCHED THIS BOLD VISION FOR HOW DO WE CONNECT ST. LOUIS FOR BETTER AND SAFER WALKING AND BIKING.

THE PLAN WAS CALLED CONNECTING ST. LOUIS.

IT WASN'T FUNDED BY ANYONE EXCEPT TRAILNET MEMBERS, AND JUST THROUGH TRAILNET GENERAL FUNDRAISING TO DO THIS PROJECT.

AND WE WERE ABLE TO PUT THE PEOPLE -- PUT THE PEOPLE'S IDEAS FIRST.

WE WORKED WITH THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS.

WE HAD EIGHT DIFFERENT DEPARTMENTS FROM THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS JOINING US.

JASON HALL JOINED US ON ONE OF OUR COMMITTEES AS WELL, GREAT RIVERS GREENWAY.

SOME OF THE UNIVERSITIES JOINED US.

WE DIDN'T HAVE ANY BUSINESS INTERESTS IN THIS.

IT WAS REALLY JUST ORGANIZATIONS LOOKING AT WHAT KIND OF INFRASTRUCTURE DO WE NEED AND WHERE DO PEOPLE NEED TO CONNECT FOR ACCESS TO TRANSIT AND TO OPPORTUNITIES.

WE HAD OVER 4,000 RESPONDENTS TO HELP US SORT THROUGH WHERE ARE THESE OPPORTUNITY STREETS AND WHERE DO THEY EXIST.

AND SO THROUGH THAT PROCESS, IT TOOK US ABOUT TWO YEARS.

SEVERAL PROJECTS, SEVERAL STREETS CAME FORWARD.

WE HAVE ABOUT 12 MILES OF CONNECTIONS THAT WE PROPOSED, AND THAT'S WHERE OUR PARTNERS LIKE GREATER ST. LOUIS, INC., CAME IN AND SAID, YOU KNOW WHAT.

THIS CONNECTION HERE TO TOWER GROVE PARK IS SOMETHING THAT APPEALED TO THEM.

SO I CAN LET SARAH TALK MORE ABOUT THAT, BUT CURRENTLY WE HAVE ABOUT 40% OF THE ROUTES WE PROPOSED EITHER FUNDED FOR FEDERAL CONSTRUCTION OR THEY'RE ABLE TO BE TAKEN UP BY ENTITIES WHO WOULD BE ABLE TO BUILD THEM.

SO THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS MIGHT BE LEADING THE EFFORT, FOR INSTANCE, ON 20th STREET AND GREAT RIVERS GREENWAY ADOPTING A CONNECTION UP TO FAIRGROUNDS PARK AS WELL.

SO IT'S REALLY AN IDEA THAT'S RESONATING.

>> YEAH, PERFECT.

SPEAKING SPECIFICALLY TO THE TOWER GROVE CONNECTOR, AGAIN, THAT'S A 1.4-MILE PROTECTED BIKE LANE FROM TOWER GROVE PARK ALL THE WAY UP TO THE GROVE.

SO YOU ASK THE QUESTION, IS IT ABOUT ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, IS IT ABOUT NEEDS.

THIS WAS ACTUALLY A REALLY WONDERFUL ROUTE BECAUSE IT ALREADY IS IN ONE OF THE MOST TRAVELED BIKE ROUTES IN THE CITY.

A LOT OF FOLKS ARE USING THAT TO GET TO THEIR JOBS AT THE EJC CAMPUS OR TO CORTEX, SO YOU KIND OF ALREADY HAD A GOOD LEVEL OF TRAFFIC HAPPENING, SO PEOPLE WANTED TO SEE AN EVEN BETTER INFRASTRUCTURE IN PLACE.

SO THEN WHAT WE ALSO LOVED ABOUT ROUTE IS YOU'RE CONNECTING TOWER GROVE PARK TO THE BOTANICAL GARDEN.

ALL THE NEW LITTLE SHOPS THAT ARE POPPING UP ON BOTANICAL HEIGHTS, YOU HAVE ENDO AND UNION LOAFERS AND IT'S BRAND NEW ICE CREAM SANDWICH PLACE, ALL THESE LITTLE INTERSECTION AND THEN YOU GO FURTHER NORTH ITEM ALONG VANDEVENTER, IT'S JUST RIPE WITH POTENTIAL.

YOU ALREADY HAVE ROCKWELL BREWERY RIGHT THERE, AND THEN THERE'S ALL THESE OTHER IDEAS FOR DEVELOPMENT THAT WHEN YOU ADD SOMETHING LIKE A CYCLE TRACK TO IT, IT JUST GETS PEOPLE EVEN MORE EXCITED AND THEY WANT TO INVEST AND BE A PART OF THIS MOMENTUM THAT'S HAPPENING.

>> AND THE RESEARCH SHOWS THAT THEY SPEND MORE MONEY.

SO PEOPLE ON BIKES STOP MORE FREQUENTLY AND THEY SPEND MORE MONEY BECAUSE THEY'RE SHOPPING MORE FREQUENTLY AND GETTING TO KNOW THINGS ON A HUMAN SCALE.

SO THEY'LL SEE, YOU KNOW, WHAT'S ON SALE AT THE SHOPS BECAUSE THEY'RE MOVING SLOWLY ENOUGH TO SEE ALL THAT AS THEY GO THROUGH.

>> SEVERAL YEARS AGO, THERE WERE COMPETING BICYCLE RENTAL PLACES WHERE YOU'D SEE THESE BIKES LAYING AROUND ALL THE TIME.

I MEAN, ONE WAS LIME GREEN AND ANOTHER WAS SOMETHING ELSE, AND I THOUGHT, WELL, THIS IS KIND OF EXCITING.

MORE PEOPLE BICYCLING, AND ALL OF A SUDDEN, THEY WERE GONE.

WHAT HAPPENED TO THAT?

>> I MISS THOSE BIKES.

BUT GO AHEAD, CINDY.

>> WELL, I TELL YOU WHAT.

I'VE ALWAYS HEARD REALLY GREAT THINGS WHEN PEOPLE SAW THE BIKE SHARE BIKES, EVEN THE CRABBY PEOPLE WHO WOULD LIKE, YOU BIKE PEOPLE, WERE EXCITED ABOUT THE BIKE SHARE BIKES.

WHAT SEEMED TO HAPPEN IS IT LAID THE GROUNDWORK FOR THE SCOOTERS, WHICH ARE EASIER FOR THE COMPANIES TO PLACE.

THEY CAN PUT MORE OF THE SCOOTERS OUT AND YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE ABLE TO RIDE A BIKE.

SOME MORE DENSE CITIES ARE SEEING ELECTRIC BIKES AS PART OF THE ASSET -- THE RESOURCES THAT ARE COMING TO THEIR CITIES.

ST. LOUIS YET HASN'T BEEN ON THAT LIST TO GET ELECTRIC BIKES INCLUDED AS PART OF THE OFFERINGS.

I'M SURE YOU SAW THE SCOERS COMING BACK ON THE STREETS AND SCOOTERS, YOU KNOW, WE CALL THEM BIKE LANES, BUT THESE LANES, THEY'RE MULTI-USE LANES FOR PEOPLE USING MOTORIZED DEVICES LIKE WHEELCHAIRS AND ALSO FOR SCOOTERS.

SO THE BIKES, I THINK THAT THEY BECAME JUST TOO EXPENSIVE FOR THE COMPANIES TO KEEP UP AND THEY CAN MAKE MORE MONEY ON THE SCOOTERS.

>> ARE THE BICYCLES WORKING ANYWHERE?

I MEAN, THE RENTAL BIKES THAT SEEMED LIKE WAS SUCH A GROWING THING?

>> WELL, IN INDIANAPOLIS THEY'RE WORKING GREAT AROUND THE INDIANAPOLIS CULTURAL TRAIL.

THEY'RE STILL USING THEM IN KANSAS CITY, BIKE WALK KC, SIMILAR TO TRAILNET.

THEY ACTUALLY RUN IT WITH SOME FEDERAL SUPPORT FOR FUNDING, FOR DOING THAT.

YOU'RE GOING TO SEE THEM IN D.C. AND CHICAGO.

IN D.C., YOU'RE GOING TO SEE A CAR THAT'S GOING TO TAKE -- >> WHY CAN'T WE HAVE THAT HERE?

WHY CAN'T WE HAVE NICE THINGS?

>> I THINK BILL WANTS TO RENT A BIKE.

>> YEAH, HAVING A SMOOTH TRANSITION FROM USING TRANSIT TO BEING ABLE TO USE SCOOTER OR A BIKE, I DON'T WANT TO SPEAK FOR CMT, BUT I KNOW -- I MEAN FOR METRO TRANSIT, I KNOW THEY'RE NOT AGAINST IT AND THOSE ARE CERTAINLY ADVANCES THAT WILL MAKE THE SYSTEM EASIER FOR THAT LAST MILE CONNECTION.

>> AND I THINK THE OTHER PIECE, TOO, AS WE BUILD OUT THE BIKE NETWORK AND WE GET MORE CYCLISTS OUT THERE, THERE'S ALWAYS -- YOU KNOW, A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT DO BIKE A LOT IN ST. LOUIS WILL TELL YOU THERE'S A LOT OF OPPORTUNITIES FOR CONSISTS OF CARS.

IT REALLY IS SOMETHING THAT NEEDS TO BE MORE NORMALIZED FOR LACK OF A BETTER TERM, FOR PEOPLE RIDING BIKES AROUND.

YOU SAY YOU CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS AND THEN PEOPLE TAKE CARE OF THEM AND THEY CONTINUE TO USE THEM.

>> YOU MENTIONED JASON HALL EARLIER, WHO OF COURSE, IS THE CEO OF GREATER ST. LOUIS, INC.

I ASSUME WHEN HE WAS TAKING PART IN THIS, THAT WAS PART OF ARTS TO THE PARK, CORRECT?

>> YES, I HAD WORKED UNDER JASON AS ARCH TO THE PARK AND WE KICKED OFF THIS PROJECT AND CARRIED IT FORWARD.

>> IS IT THE PRIVATE SECTOR THAT ARCH TO THE PARK IS INVESTING IT OR IS IT MORE OF A COMMUTER -- IN OTHER WORDS, I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH INVESTMENT IS INVOLVED IN BUILDING THESE AND WHETHER THE PRIVATE SECTOR IS INVOLVED OR THE PUBLIC OR BOTH IN MAKING DECISIONS WHERE TO INVEST IN THESE TRAILS AND SO FORTH.

>> YEAH, GREAT QUESTION.

SO BECAUSE THIS PROJECT INITIALLY LAUNCHED WITH -- EXCUSE ME, WITH APPLYING TO FEDERAL GRANT MONEY, SO THIS IS VERY MUCH A PRIVATE-PUBLIC PARTNERSHIP, SO THIS PARTICULAR STRETCH, THE TOWER GROVE CONNECTOR, DOES HAVE A $5.6 MILLION FEDERAL GRANT THAT IS GOING TOWARDS CONSTRUCTION.

BUT WE HAD AS ARCH TO PARK AND NOW GREATER ST. LOUIS, INC., HAS ALSO COMMITTED FUNDING FOR THE PRIVATE MATCH IN ADDITION TO THE APPLICATION PROCESS, IN ADDITION TO THE ENGINEERING AND DESIGN PHASE OF THIS PROJECT.

SO, YOU KNOW, WE ARE ONE OF MANY PARTNERS THAT ARE PARTICIPATING IN THE PROJECT, BUT WE ARE ONE OF THE LEAD FUNDERS TO MAKE IT HAPPEN.

BECAUSE, AGAIN, WE RECOGNIZE HOW IMPORTANT IT IS FOR OUR REGION TO GROW, TO HAVE THESE KINDS OF AMENITIES.

>> CAN I SAY, HOW MUCH IS THAT INVESTMENT?

>> ALL IN, IT'S -- I'M GOING TO -- I THINK IT'S ABOUT 2.6 MILLION.

>> FROM THE PRIVATE -- FROM ARCH TO PARK OR GREATER ST. LOUIS?

>> CORRECT.

>> I GUESS IT -- OKAY.

>> I JUST WANT TO SAY THAT EARLY ON WHEN ARCH TO THE PARK EMBRACED THIS PROJECT, THEY PAID FOR AN ENGINEERING STUDY TO JUST MAKE US READY TO APPLY FOR THE FUNDS THROUGH THE CITY.

SO THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS HAS BEEN A GREAT PARTNER WORKING THROUGH THIS AND WE'VE HAD ALDERMEN WHO DEDICATED SOME OF THEIR FUNDING TOWARD GETTING THIS DONE, SO MANY PARTNERS HAVE COME TOGETHER TO REALLY MAKE THIS A SUCCESS.

>> YEAH, AND JUST TO REITERATE AGAIN, THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS, THAT'S HOW WE -- THEY'RE THE MAIN PARTNER ON THIS BECAUSE WE CAN'T APPLY FOR FUNDS FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WITHOUT THE PARTNERSHIP OF THE CITY, SO THEY REALLY HAVE BEEN ADVOCATES IN WANTING TO SEE THESE KINDS OF PROJECTS MOVE FORWARD ALL THROUGHOUT.

>> DO YOU THINK WE HAVE MORE HOSTILITY FROM DRIVERS TOWARD BICYCLES IN THIS CITY THAN IN MOST CITIES?

I MEAN, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE WHENEVER THERE'S A CONVERSATION ABOUT BICYCLISTS, SOME GRUMPY OLD GUY USUALLY WILL SAY, OH, THOSE BICYCLISTS, THEY'RE ON CLAYTON ROAD, TAKING UP AN ENTIRE LANE.

AND IF YOU SAY, SIR, WITH EVER TO SHARE THE ROAD, PEOPLE GET UPSET AND COMPLAIN ABOUT BICYCLISTS.

IS THAT COMMON EVERYWHERE OR IS THAT MORE PREVALENT HERE?

>> CAN WE EMPHASIZE, WE ARE NOT THE GRUMPY OLD GUYS.

YOU JUST PUT IT -- >> YOU'RE NOT EVEN THE OLD GUYS.

STILL A YOUNG GUY.

>> I THINK YOU'RE KIND OF SORTING OUT THERE THINGS.

THE ACTIVITY YOU SEE A CLAYTON ROAD, THAT'S OFTEN ON THE WEEKENDS, RIGHT?

>> YES.

>> AND YOU MIGHT SEE LARGER GROUPS OF FOLKS RECREATING AND -- >> SOMETIMES YOU JUST SEE TWO PEOPLE AND THEY'LL BE RIDING ALONG IN THE RIGHT-HAND LANE, BUT NOT SINGLE FILE.

SO PEOPLE DO HAVE TO GO AROUND THEM.

I MEAN, I'M -- I'M NOT IMPATIENT, BUT MANY PEOPLE ARE.

>> YES.

>> TWO PEOPLE SIDE BY SIDE PROBABLY TAKE LESS ROOM THAN AN SUV.

>> OH, ABSOLUTELY, BUT THEY GO MUCH SLOWER THAN AN SUV.

>> I WOULD SAY, I'M A BIKE COMMUTER, SO I LIVE IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD, BILL, AND I BIKE TO DOWNTOWN ST. LOUIS AND I WOULD SAY OVER THE LAST SEVEN YEARS, IN BIKING TO WORK, MAYBE TWO OR THREE TIMES I MIGHT HAVE BEEN YELLED AT AND TOLD TO GET ON THE SIDEWALK.

>> THAT'S NOT SO BAD.

>> BUT NOT BY BILL.

NOT BY BILL.

>> THAT'S NOT THAT BAD.

>> I DON'T THINK IT WAS BILL.

>> OKAY.

NO, IT WASN'T ME.

>> HE'S MORE LIKELY TO SAY GET OFF MY LINE.

>> AT TRAILNET, WE ALSO WORK ON POLICY, AND SO WE HELP TO ESTABLISH AN ANTI-HARASSMENT POLICY SO THAT CYCLISTS CANNOT BE HARASSED.

SOMEBODY CAN BE PROSECUTED FOR HARASSING A CYCLIST.

>> REALLY?

>> YOU KNOW, THROWING A PIECE OF PIZZA AT THEM HAPPENED TO ONE OF MY INTERNS, BUT WE DID ESTABLISH THAT BECAUSE WE WANT PEOPLE TO FEEL SAFE USING TRANSIT, WALKING BIKING, USING OTHER FORMS OF TRANSIT AND TRANSPORTATION AND NOT BEING DISCRIMINATED AGAINST.

WOMEN FIND THAT A LOT, THAT THEY CAN BE A TARGET WHILE THEY'RE WALKING OR BIKING, AND SO WE HELPED ESTABLISH THAT POLICY IN ST. LOUIS.

>> WELL, CINDY, IF YOU'RE A NEIGHBOR OF MINE, I TAKE IT YOU BICYCLE A LOT IN FOREST PARK?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> RIGHT.

I MEAN, WHAT A GREAT PLACE THAT IS.

>> AND PART OF THAT IS THAT IT'S PROTECTED, TOO, RIGHT?

BOTH FOREST PARK HAS PROTECT TD LANES AND THIS NEW ONE WITH TOWER GROVE CONNECTOR IS PROTECTED TO HELP REDUCE SOME OF THE CONFLICT WITH CARS, BUT THE OTHER PIECE THAT'S KIND OF EXCITING ABOUT THESE NEW INFRASTRUCTURE PROJECTS, NOT ONLY SIT BETTER FOR BIKES AND PEDS, IT'S BETTER FOR CARS TOO BECAUSE WE'RE ALSO UPGRADING SOME OF THE SIGNALS.

YOU'RE NO LONGER SITTING AT RED LIGHTS EVERY TIME YOU HIT A LIGHT, BUT THEY'RE GOING TO BE COORDINATED TO HELP WITH THE FLOW OF TRAFFIC AND REDUCE ANY IDLING TO HELP IMPROVE THE AIR QUALITY AS WELL.

I THINK, YOU KNOW, WHILE WE FOCUS A LOT ON THE BIKE/PED, IT ACTUALLY DOES HAVE IMPROVEMENTS FOR CARS AS WELL.

>> OKAY.

>> AND IT'S WONDERFUL WORK.

HAVE YOU EVER QUAUN IF I TI FIDE THE IMPACT -- QUANTIFIED THE IMPACT YOU'RE HAVING?

I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU MEASURE HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE CYCLING, BUT THERE IS A WAY TO DO THAT, TO SAY WE HAVE THIS MANY MORE CYCLISTS THAN WE DID?

>> THERE'S A VARIETY OF WAYS WE MEASURE.

ONE OF THOSE IS APPLYING TO BECOME A BIKE FRIENDLY STEP.

ST. LOUIS HAS A SILVER LEVEL, THEY MOVED UP FROM BRONZE AND WORKING TOWARD A GOLD LEVEL RECOGNITION OR PLATINUM.

WE ALSO -- TRAILNET HOSTS, EACH YEAR WE DO A BIKE COUNT A BIKE/PED COUNT IN SEPTEMBER, SO WE'LL SPEND TWO DAYS OUT THERE COUNTING PEOPLE WALKING AND BIKING AT VARIOUS LOCATIONS.

WE SECURE A BURCH OF VOLUNTEERS AND -- A BUNCH OF VOLUNTEERS AND YOU'LL SEE US OUT THERE WITH OUR CLIPBOARDS LOOKING NOSY AND COUNTING PEOPLE WALKING AND BIKING SO WE CAN GET A BETTER INDICATION WITH OUR OWN DATA OF HOW TRAVELED THESE AREAS ARE.

AND WE CAN ALSO COMPARE IT TO CRAFT DATA.

WE ALSO HAVE A LOT OF CRASH DATA ON WHERE WE'RE SEEING MORE CRASHES THAT ARE FATAL FOR PEDESTRIANS AND CYCLISTS, TO HELP THE CITY PRIORITIZE WHERE THEY PUT IN IMPROVEMENTS.

>> OKAY.

SARAH, A MINUTE AGO YOU MENTIONED SOMETHING ABOUT TRAFFIC LIGHTS, THAT THEY'RE BEING TIMED BETTER OR SOMETHING.

WHERE DO YOU STAND ON BICYCLISTS WHO COME UP TO A RED LIGHT AND LOOK AND MAKE SURE NOBODY'S COMING, BUT THEN CROSS.

I MEAN, I LOOK AT IT AND I THINK THAT'S PROBABLY A SAFE THING TO DO, BUT A LOT OF PEOPLE SAY THOSE DARN CYCLISTS, THEY DON'T PAY ATTENTION TO THE RULES OF THE ROAD.

WHERE ARE YOU ON THAT?

>> IT'S FUNNY WE HAD A PUBLIC OPEN HOUSE ON THE TOWER GROVE CONNECTOR YESTERDAY AND I HAD A GENTLEMAN COME IN, HE WAS AN AVID CYCLIST AND HE WAS VERY ADAMANT THAT IT WAS VERY IMPORTANT FOR CYCLISTS TO FOLLOW ALL TRAFFIC RULES BECAUSE AS SOON AS PEOPLE START BREAKING THEM, THAT'S WHEN ACCIDENTS HAPPEN AND PEOPLE GET UPSET.

IT REALLY IS BEST PRACTICE TO FOLLOW TRAFFIC RULES EVEN THOUGH IT DOES LOOK CAREER.

DO I FOLLOW THAT EVERY TIME, I'M -- YOU KNOW.

>> ACTUALLY, THERE IS A STATUTE FOR A BICYCLIST THAT YOU CAN STOP FOR A DEAD -- IF A RED LIGHT ISN'T REGISTERING YOU AS A CYCLIST, SO KIND OF A FUZZY AREA, BUT LET'S SAY IT'S ONE OF THOSE LIGHTS THAT ONLY DETECTS CARS AND THE LIGHT DOESN'T TURN, LIKE AT JEFFERSON AND LOCUST, IT WON'T REGISTER YOU AS A CYCLIST, SO YOU WON'T GET THE LIGHT.

AND SO THERE IS A LAW THAT CYCLIST GO THROUGH A DEAD RED BY COMING TO A STOP.

IF THE RED LIGHT DOESN'T RECOGNIZE THEM, THEY CAN GO THROUGH IT.

SO YEAH.

>> NOW WE KNOW.

>> YEAH.

IT IS LEGAL IF IT'S NOT REGISTERING YOU.

>> WELL, I CAN SEE WHERE IT'S EVEN A SAFE THING TO DO SOMETIMES.

I SEE A BICYCLIST COME UP AND HE OR SHE KNOWS THAT IN A FEW MINUTES SOMEBODY MIGHT BE COMING DOWN, BUT RIGHT NOW IT'S CLEAR, BUT THE DRIVER SITTING THERE NEXT TO HIM OR HER -- >> WELL, IF A DRIVER WAS THERE WITH THE CYCLIST, THAT DOESN'T QUALIFY.

I'M SAYING IF THE CYCLIST -- >> I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING.

>> WE'RE OUT OF TIME, RUNNING OUT OF TIME.

REALLY QUICKLY, WHERE CAN PEOPLE FIND THESE RULES OF THE ROAD?

CAN YOU TELL US IN TEN SECONDS?

>> YOU CAN ABSOLUTELY FIND THEM ON TRAILNET'S WEBSITE AT TRAILNET.ORG.

>> ALL THE RULES OF CYCLING?

WE WANT TO THANK YOU, SARAH ARNOSKY OF GREATER ST. LOUIS, INC., AND CINDY MENSE OF TRAILNET FOR DOING SUCH A GREAT JOB OF TOLERATING OUR QUESTIONS.

YOU'RE WELCOME BACK ANYTIME ON NEXT UP.

THANK YOU AGAIN FOR YOUR INSIGHTS.

WE APPRECIATE IT AND TO OUR DONNYBROOK AUDIENCE, WE WILL SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT THURSDAY NIGHT.

>> WE HOPE TO SEE YOU ON THE MOONLIGHT RAMBLE AUGUST 21st.

WE'LL BE IN TOWER GROVE.

>> THANK YOU.

>> BYE.

>> Announcer: DONNYBROOK IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE SUPPORT OF THE BETSY AND THOMAS PATTERSON FOUNDATION AND THE MEMBERS OF NINE PBS.