>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," FROM THE BOSTON PUBLIC LIBRARY.

WITH A DEADLY HEAT WAVE IN EUROPE AND TEMPERATURES THREATENING TO BREAK RECORDS ACROSS MUCH OF THE U.S. NORTHEAST, CLEAN ENERGY COUNCIL PRESIDENT JOE CURTATONE AND TUFT'S CLIMATE POLICY LAB DIRECTOR AMY MYERS JAFFE JOIN ME ON WHAT WE CAN DO ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE NOW THAT JOE MANCHIN AND THE SUPREME COURT HAVE SPOKEN.

FINALLY, THE DEATH OF SHAWN DRUMGOLD, WHO WAS WRONGFULLY IMPRISONED FOR NEARLY 15 YEARS, ON A MURDER CONVICTION THAT WAS LATER THROWN OUT.

HIS DEFENSE ATTORNEY JOINS ME ON THE STRUGGLES HE AND FAR TOO MANY OTHERS LIKE HIM HAVE FACED, EVEN AFTER THEY ARE FREED.

>> Braude: AN HISTORIC HEAT WAVE IN EUROPE HAS KILLED MORE THAN 1,000 PEOPLE SO FAR IN SPAIN AND PORTUGAL, IS MELTING INFRASTRUCTURE AND HAS SPARKED WILDFIRES ACROSS THE CONTINENT.

AVERAGE TEMPERATURES HAVE BEEN AROUND 36 DEGREES FAHRENHEIT ABOVE NORMAL IN THE U.K., REACHING ABOVE 104 DEGREES AT LONDON'S HEATHROW AIRPORT AND 115 DEGREES IN PARTS OF SPAIN.

CENTRAL ASIA IS IN THE MIDST OF A HEAT WAVE RIGHT NOW AS WELL, WITH TEMPERATURES 20 DEGREES ABOVE NORMAL.

AND HERE IN THE U.S., MORE THAN 100 MILLION PEOPLE ARE CURRENTLY UNDER HEAT ADVISORIES OR EXCESSIVE HEAT WARNINGS.

IN SOME AREAS, LIKE TEXAS, THE HEAT IS ALREADY CAUSING STRAIN TO THE STATE'S ELECTRIC GRID, AS TEMPERATURES IN MAJOR CITIES LIKE DALLAS SOAR AROUND 110 DEGREES.

HERE AT HOME, WE'RE IN DAY ONE OF WHAT'S EXPECTED TO BE A PROLONGED HEAT WAVE, WITH BOSTON MAYOR MICHELLE WU AMONG THOSE DECLARING A HEAT EMERGENCY, SAYING YESTERDAY: "IT IS CLEAR THAT A CHANGING CLIMATE IS A RISK TO OUR HEALTH AND COMMUNITIES."

MOST SCIENTISTS AGREE THAT CLIMATE CHANGE IS TO BLAME FOR WHAT'S GOING ON IN EUROPE AND TEXAS AS WELL.

BUT AS FOR A PLAN OF ACTION TO FIGHT IT?

THAT'S A LOT LESS CLEAR-CUT.

PRESIDENT BIDEN HAD PROPOSED A PLAN TO CUT U.S.

EMISSIONS IN HALF BY THE END OF THIS DECADE.

BUT WEST VIRGINIA DEMOCRAT JOE MANCHIN-- OR SABOTEUR, AS BERNIE SANDERS CALLS HIM-- JOINED REPUBLICANS IN BLOCKING THE PROPOSAL.

AND THEN THERE'S THE SUPREME COURT WHICH, WHEN NOT BUSY MAKING REPRODUCTIVE CARE HARDER TO GET AND WEAPONS EASIER TO GET, IS STRIPPING SOME OF THE REGULATORY AUTHORITY OF THE E.P.A.

NOW, IT APPEARS BIDEN IS TAKING THINGS INTO HIS OWN HANDS, WITH REPORTS OF A PLANNED TRIP TO MASSACHUSETTS TOMORROW, WHERE HE'S EXPECTED TO ANNOUNCE NEW EXECUTIVE ACTION ON CLIMATE.

ALL THOUGH JUST HOW FAR HE MIGHT GO IS STILL UNCLEAR AND OF COURSE, WHATEVER IT IS WILL BE CHALLENGED AGAIN.

SO AS THE WORLD BURNS, LITERALLY, WHAT CAN BE DONE TO COMBAT A CLIMATE CRISIS THAT SO MANY HAVE WORKED FOR YEARS TO POLITICIZE?

AND HOW MUCH TIME DO WE REALISTICALLY HAVE LEFT TO ACT?

I'M JOINED BY JOSEPH CURTATONE, FORMER MAYOR OF SOMERVILLE AND NOW THE PRESIDENT OF THE NORTHEAST CLEAN ENERGY COUNCIL.

WE'RE ALSO JOINED BY AMY MYERS JAFFE, RESEARCH PROFESSOR AND MANAGING DIRECTOR AT THE CLIMATE POLICY LAB AT TUFTS UNIVERSITY'S FLETCHER SCHOOL OF LAW AND DIPLOMACY.

IES JOE AND AMY, THANKS SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING US.

>> Braude: AMY, STARTING WITH YOU, MUCH OF THE PLANET IS BURNING, WE HAVE A KORPTD FRIENDLY COURT, A FOSSIL-FUELED OWNED CONGRESS, YET IN THE NEW YORK TIMES POLL THE OTHER DAY VIRTUALLY NOBODY LISTS CLIMATE AS THEIR TOP PRIORITY, 1 PERCENT OVERALL, THREE PERCENT EVEN AMONG PEOPLE UNDER 30.

WHY IS THE NUMBER SO PATH ETICALLY LOW?

WELL, I THINK THAT SO MANY THINGS HAVE HAPPENED IN THE LAST YEAR, WHETHER IT IS THE PANDEMIC OR INFLATION, AND SO PEOPLE EVEN WATCHING THE NEWS ABOUT THE WAR IN UKRAINE, SO I THINK PEOPLE ARE JUST OVERLOADED WITH CRISIS.

AND I THINK THE CLIMATE CRISIS TAKES SORT OF A BACKSEAT TO SOME IMMEDIATE PROBLEM THAT IS HAPPENING TODAY AM BUT REALLY THE IMMEDIATE PROBLEM HAPPENING TODAY IS VERY MUCH ATTACHED TO THE CLIMATE CRISIS.

SO I THINK THE POLLING IS QUITE DISAPPOINTING.

AND WE STILL HAVE TIME TO ACT.

AND SO SOME OF THESE OTHER PROBLEMS T THEY ARE THINGS WE CAN'T CONTROL BUT ON CLIMATE CHANGE, THERE REALLY ARE THINGS THAT INDIVIDUALS CAN DO, THERE ARE THINGS WE CAN ASK OUR GOVERNMENT TO DO.

>> Braude: CAN WE TALK ABOUT THROWS IN A SECOND.

I WANT TO TALK WITH YOU FOR A SECOND JOE, PICKING UP ON WH AMY TALKED ABOUT, ABOUT THE IMMEDIATE SEE, A NUMBER OF ANALYSTS HAVE SAID ABOUT THIS POLL, BEYOND AMY IS A VARIATION ON THAT THEME, IS MOST PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY DON'T CONSIDER THE CLIMATE THREAT IMMINENT IT IS SOMEWHERE FAR OFF.

THEY DON'T DENY THAT IT IS A PROBLEM BUT IT IS DOWN THE LINE.

WHERE IS THE FAILURE, WHERE IS THE DISCONNECT BECAUSE AS AMY SAID T IS IMMEDIATE.

>> I'M NOT SURPRISED ABOUT THAT WHOLE T SHOULD BE SHOCKING FOR US, BUT SHOULD IT BE A SURPRISE BECAUSE WHAT WE LACK IN THIS EFFORT ON CLIMATE ACTION IS A NARRATIVE THAT IS HUMAN, I THINK TO AMY'S POINT, WE ARE CRISIS WARNED.

THE WE LEAD THE CLIMATE TECH CLEAN ENERGY INDUSTRY AND ONE OF THE IMPORTANT PIECES OF THE NARRATIVE THAT WE ARE GOING TO EMPHASIZE IS THE CRIES I WE SEE THAT IN THE NEWS, THE EXAMPLES YOU GIVE, WE SEE THAT EVERY DAY IN THE WORLD, BUT ALSO THE OPPORTUNITY TO CARVE A NEW ECONOMY UNLIKE ANYTHING WE HAVE SEEN IN RECENT HISTORY.

AND THE ABSENCE OF THAT NARRATIVE COMPOUNDED BY THE CRISIS OF A PANDEMIC, HAS DONE A FEW THING, EITHER PEOPLE EITHER BELIEVE WHAT CAN I DO TO HAVE AN IMPACT.

HAVE WE GONE TOO FAR, IS IT REAL, WE ARE IN A BIT OF DENIAL, THAT IS HUMAN NATURE.

WE NEED TO MAKE SURE WE KEEP GOING AFTER THE NARRATIVE AND CONNECT WITH PEOPLE'S VALUE STRENGTH.

>> YOU HAVE A RECENT PIECE IN COMMONWEALTH MAGAZINE, YOU TALK ABOUT CHARLIE BAKER'S REQUEST, MORE THAN A BILLION DOLLARS FROM THE RECOVERY ACT FOR CLIMB AT RESILIENCY.

MASSACHUSETTS IS ONE OF THE STATE'S TAKING THE LEAD ATTEMPTING TO FILL THE HOLE THAT THE FEDS HAVE LEFT, CORRECT?

>> THAT'S CORRECT.

YOU MENTIONED IT, THE SUPREME COURT'S DECISION AND THE EFFORTS, LACK OF EFFORTS BY SENATOR JOE MANCHIN WHETHER EXPLICIT EFFORTS TO THWART PRESIDENT BIDEN'S AGENDA AND I'M EXTREMELY HOPEFUL AND KEEPING OUR FINGERS CROSSED THAT HE TAKES EXECUTIVE ACTION, DECLARES NATIONAL CLIMATE EMERGENCY WHICH WILL CREATE LEEWAY TO TAKE NECESSARY STEPS.

THE BHIEDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS DONE A LOT WITH WIND AND SOLAR AND UNLOCKED MARKETS BUT STATES NOW ARE LEADING.

AND WE ARE SEEING THAT REALLY ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

BUT IN NEW ENGLAND WE HAVE SEEN THAT RHODE ISLAND AND CONNECTICUT TOOK BIG STEPS TOWARDS, WITH 100 PERCENT CLEAN ENERGY ELECTRICITY LAW, MASSACHUSETTS HAS A FEW SHORLT WEEKS TO TAKE A STEP IN THAT SAME DIRECTION, HAS DONE A LOT OF GREAT WORK, WE ARE CAUTIOUSLY OPTIMISTIC THEY WILL.

GOVERNOR BAKER HAS LED AND IS LOOKING TO MAKE A MAJOR INVESTMENT WHICH WE APPLAUD ON THE CLIMATE TECHNOLOGY INDUSTRY, NOT UNLIKE WHAT WE DID AROUND-- SCIENCES WE DID MANY YEARS AGO AND LOOK HOW THAT PAID OFF.

THIS IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO TAKE THAT WOULD UNLOCK AN ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY IN THE WAY THAT LIEDS WITH EQUITY THAT WE HAVEN'T SEEN, SO WHEN IN OUR LIFETIME HAVE WE SEEN SUCH AN IMPORTANT PART OF CLIMATE ACTION INEXTRICABLY IABLY TIED TO ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY.

>> JOE CURTATONE YOU CITE OBVIOUSLY NEW ENGLAND, CONNECTICUT AND RODE IDENTIFY LAND BUT WHAT DO THEY HAVE IN COMMON.

THE TWO STATES ARE LEAD BY DEMOCRATS.

THERE IS A RED-BLUE STATE DIVIDE ON THIS ISSUE OF STATES DOING WHAT THE FEDS ARE NOT, JOE, IS THERE NOT?

>> THERE IS BUT HOWEVER THERE ARE GREAT EXAMPLES WHERE STATES HAVE LEAD.

WHEN WILL I GIVE TEXAS AN EXAMPLE BUT TEXAS IS A GOOD EXAMPLE WHERE THE WIND AND SOLAR INFRASTRUCTURE UPHELD THEIR GRID DURING THE HOTTEST MONTHS.

AND YOU KNOW WE ARE SEEING ADVANCES IN AGRICULTURAL TECHNOLOGY WHICH IS IMPORTANT TO FOSTERING THE ECOSYSTEM.

THERE IS A BIG GAP THERE IN MANY STATES BUT THERE IS NOT, THE OPPORTUNITY IS NOT EXCLUSIVE TO THE NORTHEAST OR WEST COAST, IT IS ACROSS THE COUNTRY, THE INVESTMENT SHOULD BE MADE, ACROSS OUR COUNTRY.

>> SO.

>> AND JUST-- SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO SEPARATE THE POLITICAL RHETORIC WHICH IS UNFORTUNATE, FROM WHAT IS ACTUALLY HAPPENING.

SO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT ACTUALLY HAS HAPPENED IN TEXAS, TO JOE'S POINT, IS THEY HAVE ACTUALLY PASSED AND REFORMED THE RULEMAKING SO THAT THEY CAN APPLY MORE BATTERY STORAGE AND OTHER KINDS OF NEW TECHNOLOGY TO SORT OF HELP PROTECT THE GRID FROM UNRELIABILITY FACTOR.

AND SOME OF THESE NEW TECHNOLOGIES WERE REALLY QUITE HELPFUL.

SO I DO THINK YOU SEE EVEN IN THE RED STATES YOU DO SEE PEOPLE TAKING ACTIONS, YOU'VE SEEN NONGOVERNMENTAL ORGANIZATIONS.

YOU KNOW, BANDING TOGETHER TO HELP PEOPLE IN TIMES OF CRISIS, WHETHER THAT IS A HEAT WAVE.

YOU SEE MORE CITIES LOOKING AT COOLING CENTERS AND OTHER KINDS OF FACILITIES, SO I THINK THERE IS THIS POTENTIAL FOR LOCAL ACTION.

>> AMY JOE CURTATONE MENTIONED EXECUTIVE ACTION BY JOE BIDEN, ED MARKY WAS ON THE RADIO WITH US THIS MORNING, ALSO MENTIONED IT HOPING IT COMES IN SOMER SET TOMORROW WHEN HE VISITS.

BRIEFLY WHAT COULD JOE BIDEN DO WITHOUT CONGRESSIONAL AUTHORIZATION?

>> WELL, I MEAN THERE ARE, YOU KNOW, POLICIES THAT CAN BE PUT INTO PLACE THAT ARE EITHER ENCOURAGING, LIKE WE SAID SORT OF EMERGENCY REGULATIONS THAT MIGHT FAVOR CLEANER EMISSIONS, CLEANER LOW CARBON FUELS.

AND ALSO JUST SORT OF WORK AROUND THE RULES WE ALREADY HAVE ON THE BOOKS.

AND.

>> HE COULD ALSO SAY THINGS LIKE NO DRILLING ON FEDERAL LANDS BUT HE IS ALREADY ALL IN ON THAT, IS HE NOT, AMY?

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK WE HAVE TO MAKE A DISTINCTION, THAT PEOPLE DON'T CUT THE PRESIDENT SLACK.

BECAUSE WE HAVE THIS ISSUE OF WHAT ARE WE DOING FOR THREE MONTHS BECAUSE OF THE CRISIS WITH RUSSIA WHAT IS THE TEN YEAR TRAJECTORY.

THAT IS WHERE I THINK THE PRESIDENT COULD HAVE TRIED TO NAVIGATE.

>> THREAD THE NEEDLE.

>> RIGHT.

BECAUSE IN A PLACE LIKE NEW MEXICO, ALLOWING COMPANIES TO DRILL FOR NATURAL GAS AND THEN THAT NATURAL GAS IS GOING TO BE EXPORTED TO EUROPE, THOSE WELLS ARE ONLY GOING TO LAST FOR A YEAR, AND SO THAT DOESN'T OBLIGATE US TO, YOU KNOW, 30 YEAR FACILITY.

>> Braude: UNDERSTOOD.

>> EX.

>> YOU WANT TO SAY BRIEFLY ABOUT THAT.

>> YEAH, TO BUILD UPON THAT, TO AMY'S POINT.

LOOK THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS DONE A LOT TO UNLOCK MARKETS AND BRING TECHNOLOGIES TO THE FOREFRONT.

WE HAVE ALREADY TECHNOLOGIES THAT ARE MATURE TO A LEVEL THAT ARE REDUCED BY 60% EMISSIONS OVER THE NEXT TEN YEARS, THAT IS BIG.

THE OTHERS HAVE TO COME TO A LEVEL OF MATURITY SO THE PRESIDENT HAS THE ABILITY LIKE HE HAS DONE AROUND THE SOLAR TARIFFSES TO ADVANCE WIND, AND UNLOCK MARK KETSES LIKE CHARLIE BAKER WANTS TO DO, THOSE TECHNOLOGIES ARE ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

WE HAVE SEEN THE GREATEST INCREASE IN INVESTMENT ON THE VENTURE CAPITAL SIDE, I THINK 3,250% INCREASE IN THE LAST 18 MONTH AS LOAN ON CLIMATE TECH WITH TRADITIONAL, THIS MEANS JOBS, THIS MEANS REVENUE, THOSE BENEFITS ARE LOCALIZED TO EVERY CITY AND EVERY COMMUNITY AND EVERY STATE IN THIS COUNTRY AND THE MARKETS ARE DOING IT, CLEAN ENERGY JOBS HAVE OUTPACED FOSSIL FUEL JOBS, NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE TAKING JOBS BUT BECAUSE INDUSTRIES LIKE COAL, THOSE INDUSTRIES ARE CHANGED BECAUSE OF MACHINATION AND TECHNOLOGY, YOU NEED LESS PEOPLE TO DO THE WORK.

SO THAT IS ALREADY HAPPENING IN GLOBAL MARKETS AND TODAY AS WE SPEAK, THERE ARE BILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN CLIMATE TECHNOLOGY THAT WILL HELP BUFFER US.

INFLATION IMPACTS WILL LAG.

>> I WANT TO GO BACK TO YOU, OBVIOUSLY WE DON'T SEPARATE IN ISOLATION IN THE UNITED STATES AND WHEN SENATOR MARKY WAS WITH US ON THE RADIO THIS MORNING, I ASKED HIM ABOUT HOW WE REMAIN GLOBAL LEADERS WHEN OUR CONGRESS AND SUPREME COURT IS IN RETREAT AND HERE IS PART OF WHAT SENATOR MARKY HAD TO SAY.

>> YOU CANNOT PREPARE TEMPERANCE FROM A BARSTOOL, YOU CANNOT TELL THE REST OF THE WORLD WHAT THE BEST BEHAVIOR IS, IF ARE YOU NOT ENGAGING IN IT YOURSELF.

SO WHETHER IT IS CLIMATE OR WOMEN'S RIGHTS OR GUN SAFETY, WE'RE IN A PROCESS OF LOSING OUR MORAL AUTHORITY.

AND AS A RESULT OUR POLITICAL AUTHORITY.

>> SO AMY, THAT IS A REAL CONUNDRUM, I ASSUMINGS I WOULDN'T WANT TO BE JOHN KERRY TODAY, WHAT IS THE WAY AROUND IT, IS THERE A WORK AROUND?

>> WELL, I THINK THE PRESIDENT HAS TO USE WHAT HE ALREADY HAS.

HE HAS THE INFRASTRUCTURE HE CAN PUT FORWARD AND FAST TRACK BECAUSE WE'VE ALREADY APPROVED IT IN THE INFRASTRUCTURE BILL.

THE EPA STILL HAS REGULATORY AUTHORITY OVER POWER STATIONS, THEY'RE STILL REGULATORY AUTHORITY OVER EMISSIONS.

>> INDIVIDUAL POWER STATIONS.

>> INDIVIDUAL POWER STATIONS, RIGHT.

THEY'RE STILL THE POTENTIAL TO DO THINGS IN OTHER SECTORS.

WHICH MAY BE CHALLENGED IN THE COURTS.

I MEAN THAT'S ALWAYS THE RISK OF EXECUTIVE ACTION BUT IN THE END, YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES THEY SEE THINGS THAT THE PRESIDENT CAN BUILD ON SO FOR EXAMPLE STATE OF CALIFORNIA HAS DECLARED THEY'RE GOING TO PUT IN A BAN ON THE SALE OF SCAFFOLDING CARS, AND THEY ARE A BIG MARKET.

SO IF YOU'RE A CAR COMPANY TODAY, ARE YOU GOING TO CONTINUE TO ADD, YOU KNOW, NEW FACILITIES, YOU KNOW, KEEP BUILDING, YOU KNOW, GASOLINE AND DECEMBER IL TRUCKS, MAYBE NOT BECAUSE CALIFORNIA IS SUCH A BIG MARKET.

SO TO THE SENSE THAT THE PRESIDENT GETS BEHIND CHARGING STATIONS AND HELPS, YOU KNOW, CONNECTICUT GREEN BANK AND THE MASSACHUSETTS GOVERNMENT IN FUNDING AND IMPLEMENTING CHARGING STATIONS, YOU KNOW, THOSE CARS ARE GOING TO COME ONE WAY OR THE OTHER, WHETHER THE SUPREME COURT RULES AGAINST AN EPA REGULATION AND WE HAVE, YOU KNOW, OTHER AREAS, WHAT IS OUR POLICY ON EMISSIONS FROM TRUCKS.

THEY'RE JUST STILL A LOT OF AREAS WHERE THE SUPREME COURT HAS NOT RULED IT DOWN.

>> IF YOU KNOW THE AVAILABLE EV YOU WILL GIVE ME A BUZZ.

>> JOE, WE ONLY HAVE 30 SECONDS LEFT.

I AM SURE YOU ARE ASKED THIS QUESTION ALL THE TIME WHICH IS WHAT IS THE POINT OF NO RETURN AND HOW CLOSE ARE WE TO IT?

WHAT IS THE ANSWER TO BOTH THOSE QUESTIONS.

>> I WISH THERE WAS A BRIGHT LINE BUT WE KNOW THE IMPACT OF THE CLIMATE CRIES RIS CUMULATIVE, YOU CAN'T UNWIND IT ALL, IT BUILDS UPON EACH OTHER.

WE NEED TO CONTINUE BRINGING TECHNOLOGY TO MARKET, BUILDING THE ECONOMY AND MOVE TO AN EQUITABLE TRANSITION OF CLEAN ENERGY FUTURE.

THIS IS ABOUT LEADERSHIP AND VALUES IT IS NOT EXCLUDE TOIF ONE PARTY VERSUS THE OTHER.

WE SEE REPUBLICAN LEADERS AND DEMOCRATIC LIEDERS IN CITIES AS WELL, STATE BY STATE, CITY BY CITY, REGION BY REGION WE WILL HEAP LEAD THIS TRANSITION.

>> Braude: JOE CURTATONE, AMY MYERS JAFFE, GLAD TO HAVE YOUR HELP, APPRECIATE IT NEXT UP SHAWN DRUMGOLD WAS 23 WHEN HE WAS ARRESTED FOR A MURDER HE ALWAYS MAINTAINED HE WAS NOT COMMIT WHEN 12 YEAR OLD DARLENE TIFFANY MOORE WAS KILLED BY GANG CROSS FIRE IN ROXBURY BACK IN '88 HE TOLD POLICE THAT HE WAS BLOCKS AWAY WITH FRIENDS.

BUT HE WAS CONVICTED ANYWAY BASED ON WITNESS TESTIMONY, AND SPENT NEARLY 15 YEARS OF HIS LIFE IN PRISON.

THEN IN 2003 HE LEARNED IN "BOSTON GLOBE" REPORT THAT WITNESSES SAID POLICE BULLIED HIM INTO TESTIFYING AGAINST HIM INCLUDING ONE MAN WHO LATER RECANTED HIS STATEMENT TELLING THE GLOBE POLICE FED HIM DETAILS ABOUT THE MURDER.

NONE OF WHICH WERE DISCLOSED TO HIS DEFENSE.

HE WAS RELEASED LATER AT AGE 39 AFTER AN APPELLATE COURT JUDGE THREW OUT HIS CONVICTION AND PROSECUTORS DECLINED TO RETRY HIS CASE.

A YEAR AFTER THAT HE FILED A FEDERAL CIVIL LIGHTS RULE LAWSUITS AGAINST THE OFFICER BEHIND THE RECANTED TESTIMONY AND ULTIMATELY WON A $14 MILLION JUDGE FRMENT THE CITY OF BOSTON.

THE CITY FOUGHT BACK HARD AND HAD THE JUDGE DECLARE A MISTRIAL IN THE FIRST CIVIL RIGHTS CASE ULTIMATELY IN 2014, THE PROSECUTORS AGREED TO A $5 MILLION SETTLEMENT.

OF COURSE NO AMOUNT OF MONEY CAN ERASE HAVING 14 PLUS YEARS OF YOUR LIFE STOLEN FROM YOU, AND A CRIMINAL RECORD CASTING A SHADOW OVER YOUR LIFELONG AFTER.

AND AFTER YEARS OF HEALTH ISSUES SHAWN DRUMGOLD DIED LAST MONDAY REPORTEDLY AFTER SUFFERING AN AORTIC ANEURYSM AT AGE 57.

I'M JOINED BY THE DEFENSE ATTORNEY WHO FOUGHT TO GET SHAWN'S CONVICTION OVERTURNED ROSEMARY SCARPICCHIO, WHO ALSO FOUGHT AGAINST WRONGFUL CONVICTION OF MANY OTHERS INCLUDING SEAN ELLIS WHO AFTER 22 YEARS WAS RELEASED THE CASE WAS DOCUMENTED IN A NETFLIX DOCUMENTARY.

GOOD TO SIGH.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> CAN YOU REMIND PEOPLE, FLESH OUT A LITTLE BIT OF WHAT I SAY, WHY WAS SHAWN'S CONVICTION OVERTURNED WHAT MTION CONDUCT WAS BROUGHT TO THE COURT.

>> BECAUSE TWO BOSTON POLICE OFFICERS I THINK MORE THANKING TWO BUT REPROVED TOO PAID A WITNESS TO SAY HE SAW SAWN BEFORE THE PLURD AND SHAWN TALKED ABOUT GOING IN THE DIRECTION THE MURDER WAS SUPPOSED TO BE AND SHAWN TALKED TO HIM ABOUT HAVING GUNS THAT WERE HOT AFTER THE HOMICIDE AND HE WAS AN INDIVIDUAL THAT AT TRIAL THE DEFENSE ATTORNEYS HAD NO EXPLANATION FOR IT TURNS OUT WE FOUND OUT 16 YEARS LATER THE POLICE PAID HIM AND FED HIM THE DETAILS OF THE CRIME SO THAT HE COULD TESTIFY.

HE NEVER SAW SHAWN, SHAWN NEVER HAD A CONVERSATION WITH HIM.

BUT THEY HAD HIM TESTIFY TO THAT EFFECT SO THEY COULD PUT HIM AWAY FOR LIFE FOR A CRIME HE DIDN'T COMMIT.

>> ALSO WASN'T THERE A PROSECUTORIAL WITNESS FOR THE PROSECUTION WHO ULTIMATELY, THE PROSECUTION FAILED TO DISCLOSE TO YOU, THAT IN FACT HE HAD-- SHE HAD I BELIEVE I'M NOT SURE, BRAIN CANCER AND WAS IMPAIRED.

THAT WAS INFORMATION THAT NEEDED TO BE PROVIDED TO THE DEFENSE, IT WAS NOT AS WELL, CORRECT?

>> YEAH SO MARY ALEXANDER WAS A WITNESS WHO CLAIMED SHE LOOKED OUT THE WINDOW WHILE-- AND SHAWN WAS THERE.

AND SHE CLAIMS SHE RECOGNIZED SHAWN AS THE PERSON SHE SAW THAT NIGHT.

WE FOUND OUT LATER THAT THE POLICE HAD BEEN TO HER HOUSE MANY TIMES SHE HAD BEEN SUFFERING FROM BRAIN CAN SERKS THAT HER MOM HAD TOLD THE POLICE SHE HAS NO MEMORY, SHE HAS NO ABILITY TO HELP THEM OUT IN ANYWAY AND THEY FAILED TO DISCLOSE ALL OF THAT INFORMATION.

>> WHEN SHAWN DID FINALLY GET OUT THANKS TO THE GLOBE REPORTING AND YOUR INCREDIBLE WORK, WHERE DID HE LIVE?

>> WELL, WHEN HE FIRST GOT OUT HE WAS HOMELESS.

AND SO SHAWN HAD A VERY DIFFERENT EXPERIENCE, SHAWN DRUMGOLD HAD A VERY DIFFERENT EXPERIENCE THAN SEAN ELLIS BECAUSE WHEN SHAWN DRUMGOLD GOT OUT, WHEN HE GOT OUT HE COULDN'T STAY WITH HIS FAMILY.

BECAUSE HE HAD A FELONY CON VIRKS.

HE COULDN'T STAY WITH HIS MOTHER WHO WAS IN PUBLIC HOUSING BECAUSE HE HAD A MURDER CONVICTION ON HIS RECORD.

HE COULDN'T STAY WITH HIS WIFE AND DAUGHTER AGAIN BECAUSE THEY WERE LIVING IN A PLACE WHERE THEY COULDN'T HAVE ANYONE LIVING THERE WITH A FELONY CONVICTION.

SO HE WAS HOMELESS, HOUSE SURFING FOR A LONG TIME.

>> Braude: HOW WAS HIS HEALTH WHEN HE GOT OUT OF PRISON.

>> I THINK ANYONE WHO GETS OUT OF PRISON AFTER 15 YEARS, ESPECIALLY BACK THEN, THERE IS NO REGULAR DOCTOR WHO SEES YOU FOR A PHYSICAL BACK WHEN SHAWN DRUM GORLD WAS SERVING TIME.

HE HADN'T REALLY HAD A REGULAR PHYSICAL, REGULAR SCHEDULES, HE HADN'T HAD ANYONE CHECKING ON HIS CHOLESTEROL, ON HIS DIABETES, ANY OF THOSE TYPES OF THINGS SO THAT WHEN YOU GET OUT AND HAVEN'T HAD THOSE THINGS CHECKED FOR 15 YEARS, CLEARLY YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE SOME ISSUES.

SO HE DID WELL.

I THINK OUT THERE WHILE HE WAS OUT THERE.

BUT HE SPENT 15 YEARS IN A PLACE WHERE HE GOT VIRTUALLY NO HEALTH CARE WHATSOEVER.

>> AND ROSEMARY, OBVIOUSLY WHEN POLICE MISCONDUCT IS FOUND BY A COURT I'M ASSUMING THERE ARE A BUNCH OF POLICE OFFICERS WHO ARE NOT TERRIBLY HAPPY WITH THE PERSON'S CONVICTION WHO WAS OVERTURNED.

DID THE POLICE TARGET HIM AT ALL ONCE HE WAS A FREE MAN?

>> I THINK THIS-- I THINK THEY STILL BELIEVED TO THIS DAY THAT HE COMMITTED THE CRIME WHICH IS RIDICULOUS BUT I ALSO BELIEVE ONCE HE FILED THE CIVIL SUIT THAT THEY ABSOLUTELY TARGETED HIM.

>> HOW SO.

>> WELL, THEY STOPPED HIM ON A NUMBER OF OCCASIONS, THEY CHARGED HIM WITH SOME CRIMES THAT HE DIDN'T COMMIT.

WE WENT TO TRIAL AT LEAST TWICE AND GOT NOT GUILTY VERDICTS AS A RESULT OF THEM CHARGING HIM WITH CRIMES HE DIDN'T COMMIT.

THEY WANTED HIM TO BECOME SOMETHING THAT HE WASN'T SO THAT HIS CASE WOULD BE LESS VALUABLE TO A FEDERAL JURY.

>> AND YOU KNOW, I AS I SAID TO YOU MANY TIME, I CAN'T IMAGINE HOW SOMEONE SURVIVES 15 YEARS OR LONGER IN JAIL FOR A CRIME THAT HE DIDN'T COMMIT.

I ALSO CAN'T BELIEVE, IMAGINE ONCE ARE YOU FINALLY FREED THAT YOU HAVE TO LIVE HOMELESS WHERE INADEQUATE HEALTH CARE BEING TARGETED BY THE SAME COPS WHO ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOU GOING TO JAIL FOR 15 YEARS.

HOW DID SHAWN DRUMGOLD DEAL WITH ALL OF THIS ONCE HE GOT OUT?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, I THINK HE WAS VERY MUCH SUPPORTED BY HIS FAMILY.

BUT THEY WERE PEOPLE OF VERY LIMITED MEANS IN TERMS OF FINANCES.

SO IT WASN'T LIKE THEY COULD PUT HIM UP IN A HOTEL ROOM.

IT WASN'T LIKE THEY COULD GET AN APARTMENT FOR HIM.

THEY WERE BARELY SCRAPING BY AS IT WAS.

SO THE LIMITED RESOURCES THAT HIS WIFE AND MOTHER AND FAMILY HAD AT THE TIME, JUST WEREN'T ENOUGH TO SET HIM UP IN A SITUATION WHERE HE COULD BE SUCCESSFUL.

>> Braude: AND JUST TO BE CLEAR, YEK ME IF I AM WRONG, MY MATH IS WRONG.

FOR THOSE WHO HEAR THE $5 MILLION FIGURE THAT I MENTIONED A MINUTE AGO AND I SHOULD MENTION NANCY GERTNER, A FREQUENT GUEST ON THIS SHOW WHEN HE WAS A FEDERAL DISTRICT COURT JUDGE PRESIDED OVER THIS CASE, IT WAS EITHER 10 OR 11 YEARS AFTER HIS RELEASE THAT THIS SETTLEMENT WAS FINALLY REACHED, AM I NOT CORRECT ABOUT THAT.

>> IT WAS ACTUALLY ALMOST 12 YEARS AFTER THE SETTLEMENT WAS REACHED.

THEY FOUGHT US FOR TEN YEARS, THE CITY OF BOSTON FOUGHT US.

THE STATE OF MASSACHUSETTS FOUGHT US.

SO WE FILED FOR COMPENSATION BOTH UNDER THE MASSACHUSETTS INNOCENCE STATUTE AND WE FILED A 198 APPROXIMATE CLAIM IN FEDERAL COURT.

AND WE TRIED THE CASE THE FIRST TIME AROUND TO A HUNG JURY.

AND THERE ARE A NUMBER OF APPEALS AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THERE CAN BE A SECOND TRIAL.

WE TRIED THE SECOND TRIAL IN FRONT OF JUDGE GERTNER AGAIN WHERE WE GOT A $14 MILLION JURY VERDICT.

THEY APPEALED THAT AGAIN AND THE WHOLE TIME SHAWN IS STILL TRYING TO KEEP HIS FAMILY TOGETHER, TRYING TO KEEP HIMSELF TOGETHER.

BUT HE IS NOW TEN OR 11 YEARS OUT OF JAIL, STILL WITHOUT ANY COMPENSATION FOR THE 15 YEARS AND TWO MONTHS THAT THEY STOLE FROM HIM.

>> Braude: IT IS UNIMAGINABLE.

ON A BRIGHT NOTE, I GUESS, OBVIOUSLY IT DOESN'T COME IN TIME FOR SHAWN DRUMGOLD BUT YOUR OTHER CLIENT, SEAN ELLIS HAS BEEN ABSOLVED IN THIS EXXON OREE NETWORK AND I HEAR IN THE HOUSE BUDGET, THE BEACON HILL BUDGET 2-RBGS 50 GRAND IS APPROPRIATE, NOT A HUGE AMOUNT BUT AT LEAST THE START, THROUGH THE INNOCENCE PROJECT THAT WILL FUND WHAT KIND OF WORK THAT THEY ARE TRYING TO DO.

>> WELL, SEAN ELLIS TOGETHER WITH VICAR-- STARTED SOMETHING CALLED THE EXXON ORE NETWORK DOES IS TRY TO PROVIDE A SPORT SYSTEM, A SYSTEM OF EMPOWERMENT FOR PEOPLE RELEASED AFTER HAVING SERVED WRONGFUL CONVICTION, THE MEMBERS VOLUNTEER TO PICK THESE PEOPLE UP IF THEY DON'T HAVE FAMILY MEMBERS.

THEY GIVE THEM A GIFT CARD TO TRY TO GET TOILETRIES, SOME CLOTHING THAT DOESN'T SAY DOC ON IT.

JUST TO TRY TO GIVE THEM A LITTLE BIT OF MONEY TO GET THEM FOOD.

THEY TRY TO GET THEM A CELL PHONE BECAUSE MOST DON'T KNOW HOW TO USE A CELL PHONE AND VERY OFTEN THEY TRY TO GIVE THEM A COMPUTER OR ACCESS TO COMPUTE SOAR THEY CAN TRY TO FIND A JOB.

SO THAT IS SORT OF THE PHYSICAL ASPECT OF THE NETWORK, WHAT I THINK IS MORE IMPORTANT IS THE EMOTIONAL ASPECT OF THE PROGRAM WHERE THESE MEN AND WOMEN MEET AT LEAST ONCE A WEEK IN A CIRCLE WHERE THEY TRY TO DISCUSS WHAT IS HAPPENING WITH THEM.

BUT MORE THAN THAT THEY PROVIDE EMOTIONAL SUPPORT FOR REACH OTHER SO IF YOU ARE HAVING THAT DARK DAY ABOUT ALL THE TIME THAT WAS STOLEEN FROM YOU, YOU COULD TEXT OR CALL ONE OF THESE GUYS AT 3:00 IN THE MORNING AND THEY WILL COME GET YOU, TAKE YOU FOR A CUP OF COFFEE, A RIDE, WALK YOU THROUGH BECAUSE THEY HAVE EXPERIENCED WHAT YOU HAVE EXPERIENCED.

I THINK THAT MAKES A HUGE DIFFERENCE IN TERMS OF WHAT IS HAPPENING.

SO INSTEAD OF BEING STUFFED IN THAT DARK DREARY PLACE, YOU KNOW, THEY FIND A PATH FORWARD AND FIND IT TOGETHER AND I THINK THAT IS SO IMPORTANT.

>> IT IS UNBELIEVABLE.

THE STATE WRONGLY PUTS YOU BEHIND BARS TAKES 15 YEARS OF YOUR LIFE, IS FORCED TO LET YOU BE FREE AND THEN YOU'RE NOT REALLY FREE, THANKS TO THE COMPLETE INATTENTION OF THE STATE THAT IS RESPONSIBLE.

IN ANY CASE BEFORE YOU GO, WHEN YOU AND SHAWN ELLIS ARE WITH ME AFTER HE WAS RELEASED YOU TALK ABOUT THE FACT THAT OCCASIONALLY THANKS TO INCREDIBLE WORK OF THE INNOCENCE PROJECT, PEOPLE LIKE YOU, GREAT REPORTERS, INDIVIDUAL INJUSTICES ARE RIGHTED BUT I THINK WHAT YOU SAID AFTER THE SEAN ELLIS THING IS THAT AFTER EVERY CASE THAT THE DIRTY PROSECUTOR OR COP, IN THIS CASE, WAS INVOLVED IN, SHOULD BE LOOKED AT RATHER THAN IT BEING INCUMBENT ON THAT INDIVIDUAL TO REACH OUT TO THE STATE.

ONE, DID I GET YOU RIGHT.

AND TWO IS ANY OF THAT BEING DONE ANYWHERE?

>> YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY DID GET IT RIGHT, A SYSTEMIC PROBLEM WITHIN THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM.

AND TWO, NOTHING IS BEING DONE.

NOBODY IS LOOKING AT THESE CASES IN ANY SYSTEMIC WAY TO SAY WAIT A MINUTE F THIS POLICE OFFICER LIED IN THE DRUM GOLD CASE, MAYBE HE LIED IN OTHER CASES, HE LIED IN THE ELLIS CASE, THE ROSARIO CASE, IF HE LIED IN THE, YOU KNOW, IN ANY OF THE CASES, MAYBE THERE IS SOME NEED TO LOOK AT IT ON A SYSTEMIC BASIS, BUT IT IS NOT HAPPENING.

THE PROGRAMS RIGHT NOW THAT ARE POST CONVICTION INTEGRITY PROGRAM, THEY ARE EITHER NOT BEING FUNDED CORRECTLY OR THEY ARE NOT CARING TO DO THE INVESTIGATION THAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN TO BE ABLE TO ADDRESS THIS PROBLEM ON A MORE GLOBAL WAY.

>> Braude: ROSEMARY SCARPICCHIO, ONLY 30 SECONDS LEFT.

CAN YOU SPEND THOSE SECONDS TELLING US ABOUT WHAT KIND OF PERSON SHAWN DRUMGOLD WAS.

>> SHAWN WAS A FAMILY MAN.

HE LOVED HIS FAMILY.

HE LOVED SPENDING TIME WITH THEM.

HE LOVED SPENDING TIME WITH HIS FRIENDS.

HE HAD A LOT OF FRIENDS IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD.

HE HAD VERY CLOSE FRIENDS THAT SUPPORTED HIM FOR A PERIOD OF TIME AFTER HE WAS RELEASED.

AND I THINK MORE THAN ANYTHING, SHAWN COULD HAVE BENEFITED FROM THE EXXON REE NETWORK WHICH I AM SO SAD HE DIDN'T GET THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO AND I'M HOPE THAFL EVEN THOUGH THIS $250,000 GRANT WAS GIVEN, IT SAY GREAT START BUT THERE NEEDS TO BE SO MUCH MORE, THERE NEEDS TO BE SOME SORT OF HOUSING PURCHASED FOR THESE PEOPLE WHEN THEY GET OUT BECAUSE RIGHT NOW, THERE IS NOWHERE FOR THEM TO GO AND THEY EITHER GO NOOZ SOME SORT OF DRUG TREATMENT HALFWAY HOUSE, WHICH SAY DISASTER, IF YOU ASK ME, OR THEY ARE HOMELESS AND COUCH SURFING AND THAT IS NOT FAIR, THAT IS NOT THE RIGHT WAY TO TREAT THESE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN WRONGFULLY CONVICT, WHO HAVE BRN EXONERATEDDED BY THE COURT SYSTEM AND FORGOTTEN BY THE STATE OF MASSACHUSETTS.

>> Braude: I COULDN'T AGREE WITH EVERY WORD MORE.

ROSEMARY, THANKS SO MUCH FOR YOUR WORK AND TIME TONIGHT, I APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANKS SO MUCH FOR THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, BUT COME BACK TOMORROW, "BOSTON GLOBE"