>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON": WE'RE DIVING INTO THE DEADLY CRISIS THREATENING THE UNITED STATES: NOT COVID BUT LIES, MISINFORMATION, WHICH, IN TURN, HAS COMPOUNDED THE PAIN OF THE VIRUS AND PROVOKED POLITICAL DYSFUNCTION AND VIOLENCE.

"BOSTON GLOBE" OPINION WRITER ABDALLAH FAYYAD AND THE NAACP'S MICHAEL CURRY JOIN ME ON THAT.

THEN, LATER, "BOSTON GLOBE" TRAVEL WRITER CHRISTOPHER MUTHER, IN A TUX, ON A SHIP OFF GREECE, ON TRAVEL TIPS FOR ICELAND, VERMONT, AND RIGHT HERE IN BOSTON.

♪♪ >> Braude: REMEMBER BACK IN THE DAY WHEN WE THOUGHT TOM BRADY WAS ALL-IN ON TEAM TRUMP?

WELL, THE SEVEN-TIME SUPER BOWL CHAMP INDICATED OTHERWISE YESTERDAY WHEN HE RETURNED TO THE WHITE HOUSE AND MADE MORE THAN ONE JOKE AT THE FORMER PRESIDENT'S EXPENSE.

>> I THINK ABOUT 40% OF PEOPLE STILL DON'T THINK WE WON.

>> I UNDERSTAND THAT.

>> YOU UNDERSTAND THAT, MR. PRESIDENT?

>> Braude: YEAH, I THINK HE MIGHT.

BECAUSE WHILE, FOR BRADY, IT WAS JUST A JOKE, FOR BIDEN AND THE REST OF US -- OR MOST OF THE REST OF US -- IT'S A PAINFUL REALITY THAT ABOUT A THIRD OF AMERICANS AND TWO-THIRDS OF REPUBLICANS SOMEHOW THINK TRUMP WON THE ELECTION, WITH HUNDREDS BELIEVING IT ENOUGH TO STORM THE CAPITOL ON JANUARY 6.

OF COURSE, THAT'S NOT THE ONLY CONSPIRACY THEORY HURTING US AS A NATION.

>> WE HAVE AN EPIDEMIC OF MISINFORMATION ON OUR HANDS.

THANKFULLY EXPERTS LIKE DR. ANTHONY FAUCI ARE FREE AGAIN TO CALL THAT OUT, AS WE SAW YESTERDAY.

>> YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, QUITE FRANKLY.

AND I WANT TO SAY THAT OFFICIALLY.

>> WE DON'T KNOW, BUT ALL OF THE EVIDENCE IS POINTING THAT IT CAME FROM THE LAB, AND THERE WILL BE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THOSE WHO FUNDED THE LAB, INCLUDING YOURSELF.

>> Doctor: I TOTALLY RESENT -- >> THIS COMMITTEE WILL ALLOW THIS WITNESS TO RESPOND.

>> Braude: SO DO I.

BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, ELECTED OFFICIALS, LIKE RAND PAUL, DO MAKE DECISIONS ABOUT THIS COUNTRY'S FUTURE, AND WITH HE AND HIS FELLOW REPUBLICANS VOTING TODAY TO REFUSE TO EVEN DEBATE AN INFRASTRUCTURE PLAN THAT WOULD INJECT SORELY NEEDED MONEY INTO OUR COMMUNITIES, IT'S HARD TO SEE ANY ROAD AHEAD, IF YOU'LL FORGIVE THE PUN.

JOINING ME TO TALK ABOUT THE RISE, AND IF THERE WILL EVER BE A FALL, OF LYING IN OUR SOCIETY ARE "BOSTON GLOBE" OPINION WRITER ABDALLAH FAYYAD AND MICHAEL CURRY, THE PRESIDENT AND C.E.O.

OF THE MASSACHUSETTS LEAGUE OF COMMUNITY HEALTH CENTERS AND CHAIR OF THE NATIONAL NAACP ADVOCACY AND POLICY COMMITTEE.

>> Braude: ABDULLAH AND MICHAEL, GOOD TO SEE YOU BOTH.

THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

>> GOD TO BE BACK.

GOOD TO BE BACK.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING US.

>> Braude: A PLEASURE.

IT REACHED A HIGH-PROFILE WHEN KELLYANNE CONWAY WENT ON MEET THE PRESS WITH CHUCK TODD FOUR YEARS AGO AND STARTED TALKING ABOUT ALTERNATIVE FACTS.

AND YOU FAST FORWARD FOUR YEARS, AND IN THE LAST COUPLE OF DAYS, THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND THE SURGEON GENERAL SAID WHEN IT COMES TO COVID-19 AND VACCINE, MISINFORMATION IS KILLING PEOPLE.

ARE THEY RIGHT, MICHAEL CURRY?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I THINK THERE IS A CREDIBLE ARGUMENT THAT WHEN YOU FILL THE AIRWAVES, WHEN YOU FILL SOCIAL MEDIA WITH UNTRUTHS ABOUT THIS PANDEMIC, ABOUT THIS DISEASE, ABOUT MASKS, ABOUT VACCINATIONS, YOU CAUSE PEOPLE TO BELIEVE THOSE LIES AND TO NOT GET VACCINATED.

AS WE'VE HEARD COUNTLESS NUMBER OF STORIES THAT ARE SEEN ACROSS THE COUNTRY, THERE ARE CONSERVATIVES AND REPUBLICANS AND PEOPLE WHO BOUGHT THE HYPE, WHO THEN TURN UP IN OUR EMERGENCY ROOMS, AND UNFORTUNATELY RUIN THEIR LIVES BECAUSE THEY BELIEVED IT.

>> Braude: ABDULLAH, ARE THE THREE OF THEM, MEANING THE PRESIDENT, THE SURGEON GENERAL, AND MICHAEL CURRY, RIGHT?

>> YEAH.

THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, YOU KNOW, IS A PARTY THAT RIGHT NOW IS REALLY DETERMINED ON JUST LYING AND LYING AND LYING UNTIL PEOPLE BELIEVE WHAT THEY'RE SAYING TO BE TRUE, EVEN IF IT IS FAR FROM THE TRUTH.

THIS IS A PARTY THAT REALLY BELIEVES IF YOU REPEAT SOMETHING OVER AND OVER AGAIN, NO MATTER HOW FAR FROM THE TRUTH IT IS, EVENTUALLY ENOUGH PEOPLE WILL BELIEVE IT.

THAT'S THE CURRENT POLITICAL MAKEUP THAT WE HAVE.

WE HAVE A POLITICAL PARTY WHO IS ONLY -- WHOSE ONLY STRATEGY TO STAY IN POWER IS TO EVADE REALITY AND UNDERMINE DEMOCRACY IN THE PROCESS.

THE NUMBERS AREN'T IN THEIR FAVOR.

VOTERS ARE NOT IN THEIR FAVOR.

AND THE ONLY WAY FOR THEM TO OVERCOME THIS IS TO LIE TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC, AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE SEEING HAPPENING, FROM THE STATE LEVEL ALL THE WAY TO CONGRESS.

MANY REPUBLICANS -- >> Braude: BY THE WAY, IT DIDN'T JUST START.

ROY COHEN WENT INTO HIS TUTELAGE OF YOUNG DONALD TRUMP, AND WAS SAYING BOLDLY ASSERT SOMETHING AND IT BECOMES THE TRUTH IF YOU DO IT ENOUGH.

WHAT'S THE ANTIDOTE -- WITHIN THE COVID WORLD, WHAT IS THE ANTIDOTE TO THE LIES, AND THE MISINFORMATION.

>> PART OF THE ANTIDOTE IS TO GIVE THE PLATFORM TO THE PUBLIC HEALTH OFFICIALS WHO ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT, AND FOR REPUBLICAN OFFICIALS IN STATES TO START FINALLY TO ENDORSE GETTING THE VACCINE AND BEING FACTUAL ABOUT THE IMPACT OF COVID-19 AND BEING HONEST WITH THEIR CONSTITUENTS ABOUT, YOU KNOW, VACCINATIONS AND THE IMPORTANCE OF GETTING VACCINATED.

WE JUST SAW RECENTLY THE GOVERNOR OF FLORIDA, REPUBLICAN RON DeSANTIS, WHO IS VERY FAR RIGHT REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR, YOU KNOW, RECENTLY ENDORSE VACCINATIONS AND TO ENCOURAGE PEOPLE IN THE STATE TO GET VACCINATED.

WE NEED TO SEE MORE REPUBLICANS TAKE THAT STAND AND ENDORSE WHAT PUBLIC HEALTH OFFICIALS HAVE BEEN SAYING FOR A VERY LONG TIME.

IT IS ENOUGH OF STEWING THE CONSPIRACY THEORIES ABOUT VACCINATING PEOPLE.

IT IS IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE TO TELL THE TRUTH AND TO STEP ASIDE, WHEN THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT, LIKE DR. ANTHONY FAUCI SAID ABOUT RAND PAUL THE OTHER DAY.

>> Braude: MICHAEL, IT IS HARD TO DISAGREE WITH HAVING REPUBLICAN LEADERS IN KEY STATES SPEAKING THE TRUTH, BUT THE PLACE WHERE I'M NOT AS HOPEFUL AS ABDULLAH IS, IS THE TRUTH, IF SPOKEN, OWN MATTERS IF YOU HEAR IT.

AND IN THIS TWO-MEDIA AMERICA, WHERE PEOPLE SELECT WHERE THEY GET THEIR, QUOTE, "NEWS" FROM, THEY WON'T EVEN HEAR THE TRUTH.

IT IS ALMOST PASSE, AT LEAST IN MY ESTIMATION, TO SAY YOU DROWN OUT UNTRUTHS WITH FACTS, IS IT NOT?

>> YEAH.

YOU KNOW, IN THE LEGAL PROFESSION, OF COURSE, WE HAVE A TERM WE CALL "FORM SHOPPING," AS YOU CHOOSE A COURT YOU THINK WILL BE FAVORABLE TO YOUR POSITION OR WILL HAVE AN UPCOME THAT IS FAVORABLE TO YOUR SIDE.

NEWS WORKS THE SAME WAY AS WELL.

PEOPLE ARE FORUM SHOPPING FOR WHAT THEY WANT TO HEAR.

BUT I THINK IT GOES BACK TO ABDULLAH'S POINT, THOUGH.

IF WE HAVE -- I'LL CALL IT A CRAZY TRAIN, WHERE A WHOLE BUNCH OF PEOPLE WANT TO BELIEVE LIVES, AND THEY WANT TO KEEP THEMSELVES IN POWER, AND THEY'LL DO IT BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY.

IF WE HAVE ENOUGH DEFECTIONS -- YOU CAN EXPLAIN TO ME WHY YOU GOT ON THIS TRAIN AND WE CAN GET THROUGH THAT, BUT THEN YOU NEED TO JUMP OFF AT SOME POINT.

AND YOU NEED TO MAKE IT CLEAR IF YOU'RE IN THE STATE LEVEL, CITY LEVEL, OR CONGRESS, AND YOU NEED TO SPEAK OUT.

I THINK IF WE HAVE ENOUGH DEFECTIONS, ENOUGH JUMPERS, OFF THAT CRAZY TRAIN, FOR PEOPLE TO SAY I'M NOT SELF-INTERESTED, THIS IS NOT ABOUT WINNING IN THE MID-TERM, THIS IS ABOUT A DISEASE, A PANDEMIC THAT IS KILLING AMERICANS, NO MATTER WHAT COLOR OR SOCIO-ECONOMIC BACKGROUND YOU ARE.

IF WE HAVE ENOUGH DEFECTIONS, I THINK WE CAN MAKE A DENT IN THIS IGNORANCE.

>> Braude: I WAS READING A LITTLE BIT OF A BOOK FROM A PROFESSOR FROM MY ALMA MATER, THE UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA TODAY.

THE NAME OF THE BOOK IS "CREATING CONSPIRACY BELIEFS."

HERE IS WHAT SHE SAID: ONCE PEOPLE BUY INTO LIES, THERE IS NO CONVINCING THEM THEY AREN'T TRUE.

TRY TO REFUTE CONSPIRACY BELIEFS PROVES IT AND SIGNALS THAT YOU ARE THE CONSPIRATOR.

I'VE TRIED TO PICK THE MOST RIDICULOUS EXAMPLE OF AN UNTRUTH YOU COULD FIND.

THIS IS CONGRESSMAN CLYDE FROM GEORGIA, IN MAY, TALKING, OBVIOUSLY, ABOUT THE INSURRECTION.

>> THERE WAS NO INSURRECTION, AND TO CALL IT AN INSURRECTION, IN MY OPINION, IS A BOLD-FACED LIE.

WATCHING THE TV FOOTAGE OF THOSE WHO ENTERED THE CAPITOL AND WALKED THROUGH THE HALL, SHOWED PEOPLE IN AN ORDERLY FASHION STAYING BETWEEN THE ROPES, TAKING VIDEOS AND PICTURES.

IF YOU DIDN'T KNOW THE FOOTAGE WAS A VIDEO FROM JANUARY 6th, YOU WOULD ACTUALLY THINK IT WAS A NORMAL TOURIST VISIT.

>> Braude: I SORT OF FELT THAT ONE SO CROSSED THE LINE THAT NOBODY WOULD BUY IT.

BUT CHECK SOCIAL MEDIA IN THE DAYS AFTER CONGRESSMAN CLYDE SAID IT, MICHAEL CURRY, AND IT WAS ALL OVER THE PLACE THAT CLYDE SPEAKS THE TRUTH.

I DON'T MEAN TO BE MR.

NEGATIVE HERE, BUT TRUTH IS FOUND IN A HARD WAY FINDING ITS WAY INTO THESE DEBATES, MICHAEL CURRY.

>> I'M, AS YOU KNOW, JIM, I'M A STUDENT OF HISTORY.

I DO BELIEVE WE'VE HAD MANY LIES IN AMERICAN HISTORY, IN OUR HISTORY IN THIS COUNTRY, AND WHAT HAPPENS IS PEOPLE END UP -- AND I'M FORESHADOWING THIS -- SOME OF THE SAME PERCENTAGES, 7.4 MILLION PEOPLE WHO BOUGHT INTO THAT LIE WILL ONE DAY SAY I NEVER REALLY BELIEVED THAT, BUT I JUST WANTED TO GET HIM BACK IN OFFICE.

THEY'LL HAVE A DIFFERENT VERSION OF THE LIE, AND THEN WE'LL ALL BE PULLING OUR HAIR OUT BECAUSE WE THINK IT IS CRAZY THAT THEY ACTED LIKE THEY BELIEVED.

I BELIEVE IT IS SORT OF THE DISRUPTION OF SAYING WE'RE GOING TO CLAIM IT AND DRIVE YOU CRAZY IN THAT PROCESS.

>> Braude: YEAH, BUT THE CONSEQUENCES -- WHO CARES?

MICHAEL CURRY, THE CONSEQUENCES IS THE SAME, IF THEY DON'T BELIEVE IT AND PROPAGATE IT, OR THEY DO BELIEVE IT AND PROPAGATE, IT IS THE SAME.

THE JANUARY 6th SELECT COMMITTEE, EVERYBODY KNOWS THE LEADER OF THE REPUBLICANS PICKED FIVE REPUBLICANS, AND SOME OF THEM VOTED NOT TO CERTIFY THE ELECTION OF JOE BIDEN.

NANCY PELOSI KICKED TWO OF THEM OFF TODAY, CONGRESSMAN BANKS AND JIM JORDAN, IN RESPONSE TO WHICH McCARTHY PULLED ALL FIVE REPUBLICAN MEMBERS.

HERE IS McCARTHY'S REACTION TO WHAT PELOSI DID TODAY, AND HERE IS JIM JORDAN EVEN BEFORE HE WAS DUMPED FROM THE COMMITTEE, I THINK IT WAS ON MONDAY.

>> THIS PANEL HAS LOST LEGITIMACY AND CREDIBILITY.

IT SHOWS EXACTLY WHAT I WARNED BACK AT THE BEGINNING OF JANUARY, THAT PELOSI WOULD PLAY POLITICS WITH THIS.

>> THIS IS ABOUT GOING AFTER PRESIDENT TRUMP.

YOU KNOW?

THE DEMOCRATS, THEY DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, I COULD MAKE THE ARGUMENT -- I WILL MAKE THE ARGUMENT -- THAT NANCY PELOSI DECIDED TODAY TO STAND FOR TRUTH.

I'M NOT GOING TO HAVE PEOPLE PARTICIPATE IN THIS INVESTIGATIVE COMMITTEE, MAINLY THAT DONALD TRUMP WAS ELECTED PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

SO IS SHE GOING TO WIN THAT BATTLE OVER FACT AND TRUTH?

OR IS IT JUST GOING TO REINFORCE THE BELIEFS OF THE JIM JORDANS OF THE WORLD, THIS IS ALL ABOUT THEY'LL DO ANYTHING TO BRING DOWN DONALD TRUMP.

ABDULLAH?

>> IT IS HARD TO SAY WHETHER OR NOT THE MAJORITY OF THE PUBLIC WILL -- WHO THEY'LL BELIEVE.

THE REALITY IS, THOUGH, THAT NANCY PELOSI IS ON THE SIDE OF TRUTH HERE.

JIM JORDAN DID VOTE AGAINST CERTIFYING -- HE WAS PART OF THE LEADERSHIP OF REJECTING THE RESULTS OF THE ELECTION AND REFUSING TO CERTIFY THE RESULTS.

SO THE INSURRECTION REALLY HAPPENED ON THE HEELS OF HIS DECISION TO REJECT THE CERTIFICATION OF THE VOTES.

SO THESE AREN'T NECESSARILY PEOPLE THAT WE SHOULD BE TRUSTING IN THIS KIND OF COMMISSION ANYWAY.

AS FOR THE MINORITY LEADER, YOU KNOW, KEVIN McCARTHY WAS SAYING THIS IS NOW A PARTISAN SHAM.

THEY VOTED AGAINST A BIPARTISAN PENTAGON COMMISSION TO INVESTIGATE JANUARY 6th.

THEY'RE JUST HOPING, LIKE I SAID EARLIER, TO SAY THIS ENOUGH TIME AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN UNTIL PEOPLE START BELIEVING THEM.

WE ALREADY SEE THAT THE MAJORITY OF THE PUBLIC DO BELIEVE THAT JOE BIDEN WAS LEGITIMATELY ELECTED.

THEY DO BELIEVE THAT REPUBLICANS ARE LYING, AND THESE ARE -- THIS IS JUST ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF THE LIES THAT REPUBLICANS ARE WILLING TO SPEW JUST TO TRY TO STAY IN POWER AND UNDERMINE THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION.

>> Braude: GENTLEMEN, I ONLY HAVE A MINUTE LEFT, 30 SECONDS LEFT ON WHAT THE LONG-TERM IS FOR SCIENCE, TRUTH, AND FACT.

FACTORING IN THAT SOMETHING THAT DID WORK, I'M SURE YOU BOTH HAVE SEEN THIS STATISTIC THAT WAS COMPILED, IN THE WEEK AFTER DONALD TRUMP WAS BANNED FROM SOCIAL MEDIA OUTLETS, THE MISINFORMATION -- THE QUANTITY OF MISINFORMATION ABOUT ELECTION FRAUD IN ONE WEEK DECLINED ONLINE 73%.

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU THINK THAT IS PART OF THE SOLUTION.

IN 15 OR 20 SECONDS, ABDULLAH, YOU FIRST, WHAT IS THE FUTURE FOR FACT AND SCIENCE AND TRUTH.

QUICKLY.

>> I THINK THERE IS REASON TO BE OPTIMISTIC.

WE HAVE AGENCIES TO DECIDE WHAT WE PLATFORM AND WHAT WE DON'T.

WHAT YOU MENTIONED WITH TWITTER, AS AN EXAMPLE, OF DEPLATFORMING LIARS.

WE HAVE AGENCY IN THIS FIGHT, AND I THINK IT IS A MATTER OF ACTUALLY DOING THE RIGHT THING.

>> Braude: THE LAST 20 SECONDS IS YOUR, MICHAEL CURRY.

WHAT ARE THE PROSPECTS?

>> WE KNOW THE PIED PIPER OF HATE AND FAKE NEWS IS AT LEAST TEMPORARILY GONE, SOMEWHAT GONE, AND HE COULD BE BACK.

BUT I THINK THIS IS OUR OPPORTUNITY TO TELL THE TRUTH AND GET TO THE TRUTH.

I KNOW CONGRESSMAN BENNY THOMPSON WELL, I'VE GONE SKEET SHOOTING WITH HIM IN MISSISSIPPI.

HE IS A STRAIGHT SHOOTER.

I HONESTLY BELIEVE HE'LL GET TO THE FACTS AND WE'LL GET TO THE TRUTH.

QUITE FRANKLY, FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE THIS IS GOING AFTER DONALD TRUMP, IT IS GOING AFTER DONALD TRUMP.

AND THIS SHOULD BE AN INVESTIGATION TO DETERMINE THE FACTS AROUND THAT.

SO IT IS WHAT IT IS.

>> Braude: BENNY THOMPSON IS THE SKI SHOOTING PARTNER, WHO IS THE CHAIR OF THIS SELECT COMMITTEE.

MICHAEL CURRY AND ABDALLAH FAYYAD, AS ALWAYS, GENTLEMEN, GOOD TO SEE YOU.

BE WELL.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Braude: MY NEXT GUEST IS FINALLY BACK IN ACTION, NOW THAT HE'S FULLY VACCINATED, AND HE'S HERE TO TAKE US ON A JOURNEY FROM ICELAND TO VERMONT -- FOR A DINNER PARTY OF SORTS, HOSTED BY A COUPLE I ONCE HOSTED HERE ON "GREATER BOSTON," TO TALK ABOUT THEIR OTHER RESTAURANT, CELESTE, IN SOMERVILLE.

>> Braude: WHY HAS THIS EXPLODED LIKE IT HAS?

>> LOVE.

>> Braude: WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

>> WE COOK WITH LOVE, WE WANT TO SHARE LOVE, WE WANT TO FEEL LOVE; IT'S ALL ABOUT LOVE.

>> Braude: A RECIPE FOR SUCCESS IN ANY STATE, BUT WE'LL FINISH UP BACK IN BOSTON, AT A VERY EXCLUSIVE NEW GATHERING PLACE, CLUB ALGONQUIN -- OOPS, I MEAN "THE QUIN."

OUR GUIDE, OF COURSE, IS "BOSTON GLOBE" TRAVEL WRITER CHRISTOPHER MUTHER, WHO JOINED ME THE OTHER DAY TO DISCUSS.

>> Braude: YOU'RE -- SURPRISINGLY, YOU'RE THE ONLY GUEST THIS WEEK WHO IS CALLING IN FROM A SHIP OFF THE COAST OF GREECE.

ISN'T THAT AMAZING?

>> I'M SURPRISED.

I THOUGHT EVERYBODY WAS OFF THE COAST OF GREECE THIS WEEK.

>> Braude: WHAT ARE YOU DOING THERE?

>> SO I'VE DECIDED TO DELVE BACK INTO THE WORLD OF CRUISING.

I THOUGHT IT WAS TIME.

AND I DECIDED TO LEAVE FROM A CRUISE THAT DEPARTED IN EUROPE, RATHER THAN IN FLORIDA, WHERE PEOPLE ARE REQUIRED TO BE VACCINATED IN EUROPE, AS OPPOSED TO FLORIDA, WHERE THE GOVERNOR HAS DECIDED HE WILL NOT REQUIRE PEOPLE TO BE VACCINATED, WHICH MAKES TOTAL SENSE ON A CRUISE SHIP BECAUSE WE ALL KNOW HOW THAT GOES, CORONAVIRUS ON A CRUISE SHIP, NO PROBLEM AT ALL.

SO, YES, I'M BACK IN THE WORLD OF CRUISING, AND HERE I AM IN GREECE, GIVING IT A GO.

>> Braude: WHAT ARE YOU DOING, SLUMING?

WHAT IS THE GET-UP FOR?

>> I KNEW I WAS GOING TO BE ON "GREATER BOSTON" TONIGHT.

>> Braude: THAT'S HOPELESS.

>> I DECIDED I SHOULD LOOK MY BEST FOR YOU, JIM.

I ALWAYS DO MY BEST.

>> Braude: YOU DO.

CAN WE GO TO A LITTLE MORE RISKY VENUE, IF WE CAN.

>> YEAH.

>> Braude: YOU AND YOUR HUSBAND CHOSE, AGAINST THE ADVICE OF LOCAL TOUR GUIDES, TO CLIMB TO THE TOP OF A LAVA-SPEWING VOLCANO IN ICELAND.

DO I HAVE THAT RIGHT, FOR THE MOST PART?

>> YOU PRETTY MUCH HAVE THAT RIGHT.

THE ICELANDIC METEORLOGICAL SOCIETY SAID -- SAY THAT THREE TIMES FAST AFTER TWO GLASSES OF WINE ON A CRUISE SHIP -- HAD SAID, DON'T CLIMB TO THE TOP OF THIS PARTICULAR VOLCANO IN GAIL--FORCE WINDSGALE-FORCE WINDS AT TWO IN THE MORNING, WHICH I DID.

AND I'M GLAD I DIDN'T LISTEN TO THEM BECAUSE I HAD THE WIND BURN AND THE FUN THAT PEOPLE MIGHT NOT HAVE.

BUT, YES, I DECIDED TO GO TO ICELAND BECAUSE IT WAS THE FIRST EUROPEAN COUNTRY THAT REOPENED TO VACCINATED AMERICANS.

SO I THOUGHT IT WAS A GOOD PLACE TO START, FOR ME TO GET BACK OUT INTO THE WORLD.

>> Braude: BUT YOU WENT IN A SEASON WHERE IT WAS LIGHT VIRTUALLY AROUND THE CLOCK.

LAVA-SPEWING VOLCANO, YES.

NORTHERN LIGHTS, NO.

>> NO NORTHERN LIGHTS, HOWEVER, WE WENT NORTH.

A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO GO TO ICELAND GO TO A PART OF ICELAND CALLED "THE GOLDEN CIRCLE."

WE DECIDED TO DO THE DIAMOND CYCLE, WHICH IS THE LATEST AND HOTTEST CYCLE, WHICH IS IN NORTH ICELAND.

IT IS IN THE NORTHERN PART OF THE COUNTRY.

IT WAS SNOWING IN JUNE, WHEN WE WERE THERE.

IT IS THIS BEAUTIFUL, KIND OF -- IT IS NOT UNDISCOVERED, BUT IT IS UNDISCOVERED BY AMERICAN TOURISTS.

SO IT IS A REALLY NICE KIND OF ALTERNATIVE TO THE USUAL REYKJAVIK SITUATION.

>> Braude: LET'S GO FROM ICELAND TO VERMONT, AND TALK ABOUT TWO OF MY FAVORITE PEOPLE, WHO OWN ONE OF MY FAVORITE RESTAURANTS A MILE FROM MY HOUSE, WHICH WOULD BE CELESTE.

THEY'RE DOING SOMETHING IN VERMONT.

WHAT EXACTLY IS THAT THING.

>> FIRST I WANTED TO BACK UP TO THE CLIP YOU SHOWED AT THE BEGINNING OF THE SEGMENT, WHERE YOU ASKED THEM WHAT LOVE IS.

>> Braude: UH-HUH.

>> I'M GOING TO JUMP FORWARD BECAUSE I JUST NEEDED TO GET THAT OUT OF THE WAY -- >> Braude: WHAT HAS LOVE GOT TO DO WITH IT -- GO AHEAD.

>> JIM, YOU'VE ALWAYS BEEN MY PRIVATE DANCER, A DANCER FOR MONEY.

THEY BOUGHT A HOUSE IN VERMONT.

THIS HOUSE THEY RENOVATED FROM NOTHING, THEY TURNED INTO THIS RESTAURANT.

AND THE FOOD IS AMAZING.

SOME WEEKENDS THEY DO GUEST SHOWS, AND OTHERS THEY DO A PERUVIAN MEAL.

I HAPPENED TO BE THERE THE FIRST WEEKEND THAT HAD GUEST CHEFS IN FROM NEW YORK.

>> Braude: OH, YOU JUST GOT SMALLER.

>> MAYBE THEY CAN EDIT.

THEY ARE, AS YOU KNOW, FANTASTIC AND LOVING PEOPLE.

THEY REALLY DO MAKE YOU FEEL LIKE YOU'RE IN THEIR HOME.

AND I HAPPENED TO BE THERE, AND THERE WERE 24 STRANGERS WHO CAME TOGETHER.

THERE WAS NO WEIRD SMALL TALK, EXCEPT ON MY PART.

AND I HAD A REALLY LOVELY TIME.

>> Braude: WHAT IS IT CALLED AGAIN?

>> ESMERELDA.

>> Braude: IT USED TO BE CALLED THE ALGONQUIN CLUB, AND IT IS NOW "THE QUIN."

I READ YOUR PIECE THE OTHER DAY, AND FOR PEOPLE WHO WILL PROBABLY NEVER SEE THE INSIDE OF IT, WHAT IS IT, EXACTLY?

WHAT IS IT, EXACTLY?

>> SO, "THE QUIN," USED TO BE CALLED THE ALGONQUIN.

IT IS A MEMBERS-ONLY, PRIVATE CLUB.

ONE WHICH YOU HAVE NOT RECEIVED AN INVITATION TO, JIM.

>> Braude: THAT HAPPENED HAPPENS TO BE RIGHT, AND I TOLD YOU THAT OFF THE AIR, OFF THE RECORD -- THANK YOU FOR BRINGING THAT UP.

IT IS AN INVITATION-ONLY CLUB.

CORRECT.

AND WHAT IS SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN THERE?

>> SO ELBOWS ARE RUBBED, MINGLING HAPPENS.

AND IT'S ABOUT PHILANTHROPY, IS WHAT THE OWNERS OF THE CLUB ARE SAYING.

OTHERS OF US MAY SAY IT IS SOCIAL CLIMBING, STATUS, ALL OF THOSE THINGS.

BUT OVER ALL, THEY DID A REALLY BEAUTIFUL JOB ON THE INTERIORS.

IT IS AN ABSOLUTELY LOVELY SPACE.

>> Braude: AND WHAT IS IT, MANY RESTAURANTS, MANY BARS -- YOU WOULD KNOW ABOUT THE BARS, OBVIOUSLY -- AND WHAT'S IN THERE?

THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO SAY WHEN YOU'RE ASKED WHAT IT IS LIKE.

GO AHEAD.

>> BARS?

I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

>> Braude: OKAY.

GOOD.

>> THERE ARE EIGHT BARS, FOUR RESTAURANTS.

THEY BROUGHT IN A WORLD-REKNOWNED DESIGNER FROM SAN FRANCISCO TO DESIGN THE SPACE.

SO IT IS KIND OF LIKE THE BEST HOTEL YOU'VE NEVER STAYED AT.

AND IN YOUR CASE, JIM, THAT YOU'LL NEVER GET INVITED TO STAY AT.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW THE OLD GROUCHO MARX, ANY CLUB I BELONG TO, YOU WOULDN'T WANT TO BELONG TO -- >> I KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN.

THAT WAS A LITTLE CONVOLUTED, BUT I UNDERSTAND EXACTLY WHAT YOU SAID.

YES.

>> Braude: THIS IS JUST SO YOU KNOW, CHRISTOPHER, BECAUSE I'M SURE YOU'RE INTERESTED IN THES, THIS THIS, THIS IS ONE OF THE REASONS WE DON'T DO INTERVIEWS WITH PEOPLE DRINKING OFF THE GREEK COAST.

ARE YOU AWARE OF THAT?

OR IS THAT SOMETHING NEW TO YOU?

>> LET ME THINK.

HANG ON.

NO, I THOUGHT THIS WAS A COMMON THING.

PRE-COVID, WHEN I WAS IN THE STUDIO WITH YOU, YOU HAD YOUR BOTTLE OF BOURBON UNDER THE DESK.

FOLKS PROBABLY DON'T KNOW THIS, BUT YOU WERE GLUG, GLUG, GLUG THE WHOLE TIME.

>> Braude: SADLY, YOU'RE TOO SMALL TO TALK TOW.

CHRISTOPHER MUTHER, IT HAS BEEN A PLEASURE.

CALL US AGAIN SOON.

>> THE PLEASURE IS MINE.

THANK YOU.

>> Braude: THERE ARE ONLY A FEW SPOTS IN DOWNTOWN BOSTON WHERE THE PUBLIC REGULARLY GATHERS.

BOSTON COMMON IS GRITTIER, AND THE PUBLIC COMMON FANCIER, BUT THE ESPLANADE DOES SOMETHING SIMILAR.

BUT COPLEY SQUARE IS DIFFERENT.

IT MAKES THE CITY ITSELF GREENER AND MORE HUMANE.

IT HAS EVOLVED DRAMATICALLY OVER THE YEARS, AND FOU IT IS ABOUT TO CHANGE YET AGAIN.

ADAM REILLY HAS MORE.

>> Reporter: AFTER A YEAR OF PANDEMIC-INDUCED ISOLATION, COPLEY SQUARE IS A BALM FOR THE SOUL RIGHT NOW.

ON ANY GIVEN DAY, IT BOASTS A STRIKINGLY DIVERSE ARRAY OF PEOPLE PASSING THROUGH AS THEY TRAVERSE THE BACK BAY, OR STOPPING TO REST, THINK, AND OBSERVE.

BUT IF COPLEY SQUARE IS A CASE OF STUDY IN BOSTON COMING BACK TO LIFE, IT'S ALSO SHOWING SIGNS OF STRESS.

>> YOU CAN SEE COMPACTED ROOT ZONES OF THE TREES, AND THE TREES THAT ARE SUFFERING FROM IT.

OCCASIONALLY YOU CAN SEE BALD PATCHES IN THE LAWN.

>> Reporter: ACCORDING TO THE BOSTON PARKS DEPARTMENT'S B. CHATFIELD, ALL THAT WEAR AND TEAR HIGHLIGHTS JUST HOW IN DEMAND THE SQUARE HAS BECOME.

>> THE FARMERS' MARKET, WHICH IS THE LARGEST FARMERS' MARKET IN BOSTON, PROTESTS WHICH TEND TO DRAW PEOPLE FROM ALL OVER THE STATE, AND SOMETIMES NEW ENGLAND.

>> Reporter: NOT TO MENTION THE MARATHON AND FIRST NIGHT.

BUT STARTING NEXT YEAR, COPLEY SQUARE WILL BE CLOSED FOR RENOVATIONS AND SOME REINVENTION.

AMONG THE CHANGES PLANNED: A NEW, SLIGHTLY ELEVATED PLATFORM ALONG THE SQUARE'S NORTHERN EDGE.

>> IT'S A VERY INTERESTING MULTISIDED SHAPE.

ON ONE SIDE OF THE PLATFORM, YOU'RE LOOKING OUT AT TRINITY.

ON ANOTHER SIDE OF THE PLATFORM, YOU'RE LOOKING OVER AT THE COPLEY PLAZA HOTEL.

ANOTHER IS THE LIBRARY.

ANOTHER ENGAGES THE STREET.

>> Reporter: CREATING NEW SIGHT LINES AND PROTECTING THE SQUARE'S BELEAGUERED TREES AT GROUND LEVEL.

IN ADDITION, THE SQUARE'S OLD FOUNTAIN WILL BE SWAPPED OUT FOR A NEW, MORE MODERN FOUNTAIN CLOSE TO THE CENTER, AND THE PAVED AREA BY TRINITY CHURCH WILL BE COVERED WITH GRASS, WITH A NEW, PAVED AREA BUILT CLOSER TO THE BOSTON PUBLIC LIBRARY.

THAT'S THE PLAN, ANYWAY, BUT SOME NEIGHBORS STILL HAVE RESERVATIONS.

>> LET'S SLOW DOWN A LITTLE BIT.

>> Reporter: ELLIOT LAFFER CHAIRS THE NEIGHBORHOOD ASSOCIATION OF THE BACK BAY.

HE'D LIKE TO SEE SOME ADJUSTMENTS BEFORE THE CITY PROCEEDS, WITH MORE GREEN SPACE TOPPING HIS WISH LIST.

>> WE NEED GRASS.

THERE'S LESS GRASS IN THE DESIGN THAN THERE OUGHT TO BE.

>> Reporter: FOR THE RECORD, AMBIVALENCE ABOUT COPLEY SQUARE IS NOTHING NEW.

IT WAS INITIALLY KNOWN AS "ART SQUARE," IN HONOR OF THE ORIGINAL, NOW-DEMOLISHED MUSEUM OF FINE ARTS.

YEARS AGO, THE SQUARE WAS ALSO BISECTED DIAGONALLY BY HUNTINGTON AVENUE.

LATER IT WAS REIMAGINED AS A MODERN PIAZZA, WITH A DEPRESSED INTERIOR, AN APPROACH ALEX KRIEGER OF HARVARD'S GRADUATE SCHOOL OF DESIGN CALLS DEEPLY MISGUIDED.

>> THAT WAS JUST A BAD IDEA.

IT RADIATED HEAT, ESPECIALLY DURING THE SUMMER, AND IN THE WINTER IT WAS JUST FULL OF SNOW.

>> Reporter: TODAY'S LAYOUT IS ONLY ABOUT THREE DECADES OLD, AND KRIEGER SAYS IT REPRESENTS PARTIAL PROGRESS, WITH A PARK-LIKE FEEL IN PLACES, BUT ELEMENTS OF THE LESS-WELCOMING PIAZZA APPROACH STILL LINGERING.

FOR COPLEY SQUARE TO REACH ITS POTENTIAL, KRIEGER ARGUES, THE PARK COMPONENT SHOULD FINALLY TAKE PRECEDENCE.

>> ADD AN ADDITIONAL AMOUNT OF GREEN SPACE, BUT NOT SIMPLY LAWN.

CERTAINLY ADD MORE COMFORTABLE SEATING.

PROVIDE THE COMFORTS PEOPLE EXPECT TO FIND IN AN URBAN PARK, AS OPPOSED TO AN ITALIAN PIAZZA.

>> Reporter: BUT RIGHT NOW, AFTER SURVEYING THE PUBLIC, THE CITY ALREADY THINKS IT'S APPROACHING THE RIGHT BALANCE.

>> THERE WAS ABOUT 25% WHO SAID WE WANT TOTAL CHANGE, AND 25% WHO SAID NOT SO MUCH, WE LOVE IT THE WAY IT IS.

THE CURRENT REDESIGN IS AIMED AT EVERYONE ELSE AND INTENDED TO BE A TUNE-UP BUT NOT A TRANSFORMATION.

ADAM REILLY, GBH NEWS.

>> Braude: THERE'S ANOTHER BIG CHANGE BREWING IN THAT NEIGHBORHOOD.

THE CITY OF BOSTON IS CONSIDERING OCCASIONALLY MAKING DARTMOUTH STREET, WHICH RUNS BETWEEN COPLEY SQUARE AND THE B.P.L., PEDESTRIAN ONLY.

THEY'RE PLANNING A FEW TRIAL DAYS THIS FALL.

IF THAT ACTUALLY HAPPENS -- AND I VOTE YES, BY THE WAY -- COPLEY SQUARE COULD BECOME EVEN MORE OF A GO-TO DESTINATION THAN IT IS RIGHT NOW.

>>> THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT.

WE'LL BE BACK TOMORROW.

THANKS FOR WATCHING AND PLEASE STAY SAFE.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org