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JR.'S RAMBLINGS TELL US ABOUT THIS ERA OF POST-PANDEMIC EXPERIENCE POLICY.

>>> THEN -- >> I AM READY TO BE THE PRIME MINISTER FOR ALL, WHETHER YOU AGREE WITH ME OR DISAGREE WITH ME.

>> THE MAN BLOCKED FROM BECOMING THAILAND'S NEXT PRIME MINISTER AFTER HE WON THE ELECTION.

I SPEAK TO PITA LIMJAROENRAT ABOUT THE OLD GUARD PARLIAMENT STANDING IN HIS WAY AND THE PROTESTS ERUPTING IN THE STREETS.

>>> PLUS -- >> THERE WERE NEGRO PLAYERS BACK THEN SO IT WAS IMPORTANT TO SEA THEM ON THE FIELD.

>> THE RICH AND COMPLICATED HISTORY OF BLACK BASEBALL, DIRECTOR SAM POLLARD TALKS TO WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT HIS NEW FILM "THE LEAGUE" AND HOW THIS SPORT IS A METAPHOR FOR AMERICA.

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>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

IN THE HEAT OF THE AMERICAN SUMMER, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES ARE FOCUSED ON THE DEAD OF WINTER.

THAT'S WHEN THE PRIMARIES START JUST A SHORT SIX MONTHS FROM NOW.

IT'S A CROWDED REPUBLICAN FIELD CULTURE WARS WILL BE FRONT AND CENTER.

FLORIDA GOVERNOR RON DeSANTIS IS STILL WAGING HIS BATTLE AGAINST, QUOTE, WOKENESS, AND HIS LATEST LEGISLATION RAISES RACE TO A WHOLE NEW AND SHOCKING LEVEL.

LIKE REQUIRING SCHOOL CHILDREN TO BE TAUGHT THAT SLAVERY ACTUALLY EQUIPS SLAVES WITH BENEFICIAL PERSONAL SKILLS.

ON THE DISTRACT SIDE, THERE'S ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.

USING HIS NAME TO SPREAD COVID CONSPIRACY THEORIES HOPING TO CHALLENGE HIS OWN PARTY'S PRESIDENT FOR THE NOMINATION.

RFK'S CAMPAIGN MUCH LIKE DONALD TRUMP'S, IS AN UNDENIABLE MANIFESTATION OF A POST-PANDEMIC CONSPIRACY-LADEN POLITICAL LANDSCAPE.

THAT IS THE VIEW OF WRITER REBECCA TRAISTER, AND SHE'S JOINING ME NOW ALONGSIDE DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST, JOE TRIPPI.

WELCOME BOTH OF YOU TO THE PROGRAM.

BEFORE I DIVE INTO THE THEORY AND THE DEEP REPORTING THAT REBECCA'S DONE, I WANT TO ASK YOU AS A DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST, JOE TRIPPI, THAT GIVEN BOTH PRINCIPAL CANDIDATES, YOU KNOW, SORT OF FAVORABILITIES ARE QUITE LOW, IS IT ACTUALLY TIME OR AN OPPORTUNITY FOR A VIABLE THIRD-PARTY CANDIDATE RIGHT NOW OR EVEN ONE TO -- YOU KNOW, TO QUESTION HIS OWN PARTY?

>> I THINK IT'S A VERY RECKLESS TIME TO DO THAT.

I'M SURE THERE WILL BE PEOPLE WHO DO IT AS ROBERT KENNEDY JR. IS DOING, BUT THIS IS NOT -- WE'RE NOT IN A -- I DON'T BELIEVE WE'RE IN AN ERA WHERE THERE'S ACTUALLY, IT'S REPUBLICAN VERSUS DEMOCRAT OR IDEOLOGICAL FIGHT BETWEEN RIGHT AND LEFT.

IT'S AN AUTOCRATIC TRUMPISM VERSUS DEMOCRACY.

AND THE TRUMP VOTE IS NOT -- THERE IS NO -- THERE'S NO WAY TO HAVE A -- THERE'S NO ONE WHO'S GOING TO TAKE MODERATE TRUMP VOTES AWAY FROM HIM.

THEY DON'T EXIST.

THERE ARE NO MODERATE CENTRIST VOTERS WHO ARE WITH TRUMP.

IS TRYING TO DO A THIRD PARTY THAT WOULD BE CENTRIST AND MODERATE, THERE'S ONLY ONE CAMPAIGN.

IT'S JUST THE PRO-DEMOCRACY SIDE OF THAT EQUATION THAT'S GOING TO GET -- THAT'S GOING TO GET DILUTED.

AND I THINK THE SAME IS TRUE WITH ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.

IN THAT I THINK ALL OF THIS IS WORKING TOWARDS HELPING TRUMP GET REELECTED, INCLUDING ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.

I THINK IT -- IT WOULD BE NOT SURPRISING TO ME AT ALL IF THERE'S A DARK MONEY, INDEPENDENT EXPENDITURE CAMPAIGN LAUNCHED ON HIS BEHALF TO ATTACK BIDEN.

ALL OF THIS IS IN MY VIEW AN EFFORT TO HELP DONALD TRUMP WIN RE-ELECTION.

>> SO REBECCA, YOU DID THE DEEP DIVE ONTO ROBERT F. KENNEDY'S CANDIDACY AND ALL THAT'S GOING AROUND, DOES JOE TRIPPI HAVE A CONSPIRACY LADEN THAT HE'S BEING FUNDED BY THE OTHER SIDE TO DAMAGE BIDEN.

DID YOU FIND ANY EVIDENCE OF THAT?

>> WELL, I WASN'T -- MY REPORTING DID NOT FOCUS ON THE FUNDING BEHIND KENNEDY'S CAMPAIGN.

IT IS CERTAINLY TRUE THAT -- A COUPLE OF THINGS ARE TRUE.

FIRST OF ALL, KENNEDY IS CERTAINLY -- HE'S RUNNING AS A DEMOCRAT, RIGHT?

SO TO BE CLEAR HE IS NOT RUNNING AT THE MOMENT AS AN INDEPENDENT OR AS A THIRD-PARTY CANDIDATE, AND HE'S DRAWING ON A LOT OF RECOLLECTIONS OF HIS FORE BEARERS, OF HIS UNCLE AND HIS FATHER JOHN KENNEDY AND BOBBY KENNEDY SR.

IN HIS CAMPAIGN AND SAYING HE'S A TRUE DEMOCRAT.

BUT A LOT OF WHAT HE'S TALKING ABOUT HAS A REALLY STRONG APPEAL TO THOSE ON THE RIGHT, AND A LOT OF THE NETWORKS THAT ARE PROMOTING HIM AND I MEAN THE PODCAST NETWORKS ARE PEOPLE WITH RIGHTWARD LEANINGS.

ABOUT THIS, ARE EXCITED ABOUT HIM ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE ALSO EXCITED ABOUT DONALD TRUMP.

AND HE VIEWS THIS AS A POINT OF PRIDE.

I WOULD ARGUE THAT IT IS CREATING A LOT OF CHAOS, AND I THINK THAT JOE IS RIGHT THAT THE PERIL HERE IS THAT HIS CANDIDACY DRAWS MORE ENTHUSIASM AND WEAKENS BIDEN, BUT I WANT TO SAY THAT PART OF THE REASON THAT HIS CANDIDACY, I THINK, IS GETTING SOME OF THE ATTENTION IT'S GETTING IS BECAUSE THERE -- THERE IS A LOT OF AMBIVALENCE ABOUT BIDEN ON THE LEFT AND AMONGST DEMOCRATS, AND THERE ARE WORRIES THAT HE IS AN OLDER CANDIDATE.

HE HAD PROMISED THAT HE WOULD BE A BRIDGE CANDIDATE TO THE FUTURE BUT HAS NOT NECESSARILY WORKED TO EMPOWER A FUTURE GENERATION OF DEMOCRATS.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I THINK IS INTERESTING, JOE IS TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THIS IS NOT RIGHT.

THIS IS NOT LEFT.

THERE IS A MAJOR GENERATIONAL SHIFT HAPPENING IN BOTH PARTIES RIGHT NOW, AND THERE IS A LOT OF CONFUSION AND CHAOS ABOUT WHO'S GOING TO LEAD US INTO THE FUTURE, AND I THINK THAT CANDIDATE -- CHAOS CANDIDATES INCLUDING KENNEDY ARE TAKING ADVANTAGE OF A LOT OF THAT CONFUSION.

>> OKAY.

LET ME TURN TO YOU, JOE, THEN.

THE IDEA OF THIS CHAOTIC LANDSCAPE, OBVIOUSLY ROBERT F. KENNEDY DOES HAVE AN UNBELIEVABLE PEDIGREE, AND YET, HE'S PEDDING THE KIND OF PARANOID POLITICS THAT TRUMP HAS BEEN PEDDLING.

HOW DO YOU SEE, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE YOU -- YOU'VE BEEN THERE, YOU KNOW, CERTAINLY IN THE KENNEDY ERA, CERTAINLY EDWARD KENNEDY AND ALL THE REST OF IT.

HOW DO YOU SEE ROBERT F. KENNEDY, WHO'S POLLING QUITE SIGNIFICANTLY, YOU KNOW, CONTINUING THIS QUIXOTIC CAMPAIGN?

>> I WOULD SAY FIRST OF ALL, THE FIRST PRECINCTS I EVER WALKED IN MY LIFE WERE IN CALIFORNIA FOR ROBERT F. KENNEDY SR., AND THEN I'D GONE TO WORK FOR TED KENNEDY IN THE '80s.

SO I KNOW THE -- YEAH, I'VE WORKED WITH THIS FAMILY.

I KNOW THEM.

THEY ALL -- THE ENTIRE FAMILY'S AGAINST THIS AND ROBERT KENNEDY IS TRADING ON THE NAME, WHICH I THINK IS BENEFITTING HIM RIGHT NOW.

I THINK THERE ARE A LOT OF VOTERS OUT THERE WHO JUST HEAR ROBERT KENNEDY JR. AND, YOU KNOW, CONSIDER IT.

BUT I THINK EVERY DAY THAT HE'S OUT THERE AND HIS CONSPIRACY THEORIES ARE GETTING MORE DAYLIGHT, THE WORSE THINGS WILL BE FOR HIM.

I'M NOT WORRIED AT ALL ABOUT HIS, YOU KNOW, HIS SORT OF TILTING A WINDMILL CAMPAIGN FOR NOTORIETY OR RELEVANCE.

HE'S BEEN DOING THAT FOR SOME TIME, AND THIS CAMPAIGN IS JUST ANOTHER PART OF THAT.

WHAT CONCERNS ME IS THE FUNDING.

THE ONE THING WE DO KNOW NOW BECAUSE THE FILING DEADLINE FOR CONTRIBUTIONS JUST PASSED, AND SO IT'S STARTING TO TRICKLE OUT.

THERE, A LARGE NUMBER OF HIS DONATIONS COME FROM TRUMP -- FROM PEOPLE WHO HAVE ONLY GIVEN TO TRUMP, GIVEN TO TRUMP AND ROBERT KENNEDY JR. AND SO -- AND THAT IS, YOU KNOW, A PROBLEM, BUT THE BIGGER PROBLEM WILL BE IF, IN MY VIEW, IF YOU SEE AN INDEPENDENT EXPENDITURE, YOU KNOW, A DARK MONEY COMMITTEE START EXPENDING FUNDS ATTACKING BIDEN ON BEHALF OF KENNEDY -- I MEAN, AS THE EXCUSE TO DO THAT.

I WOULD NOT BE SURPRISE D IF THAT HAPPENS GIVEN WHERE KENNEDY'S MONEY IS COMING FROM AND THE STUFF HE'S ESPOUSING, ALONG WITH SOME OTHER THIRD-PARTY CANDIDAIES THAT ARE OUT THERE THAT I THINK ALL OF IT -- YOU KNOW, THERE ARE A LOT OF YEARS WHERE I WOULD PROBABLY NOT HAVE PROBLEMS WITH ANY OF THIS.

EVERYBODY HAS A RIGHT TO RUN, A DEBATE.

I THINK THIS YEAR, 2024, WITH DONALD TRUMP THREATENING TO GET -- YOU KNOW, FOR HIM TO RETURN TO THE WHITE HOUSE HAS GOT TO BE THE MOST DANGEROUS THING, NOT JUST TO THE AMERICAN DEMOCRACY BUT TO DEMOCRACY AROUND THE GLOBE.

>> SO LET ME ASK YOU THIS THEN BECAUSE CLEARLY IT IS, YOU KNOW, WORRYING QUITE A FEW AMERICANS AND CERTAINLY MANY PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD WHO, YOU KNOW, WATCHED WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6th AND MANY OTHER ISSUES.

I MEAN, I'M TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, FIRMLY DEMOCRATIC COUNTRIES, AND THEY ARE CONCERNED.

BUT TO REBECCA'S POINT, JOE, DO YOU THINK THAT THE DEMOCRATS FUMBLED, BIDEN FUMBLED BY NOT BEING A BRIDGE TO A NEW GENERATION?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, HE'S DOING EXTREMELY WELL WITH GENERATION Z VOTERS.

HE'S DOING VERY, VERY WELL.

THE OTHER THING AT THIS POINT IN EVERY ELECTION THAT WE'VE SEEN, YOU KNOW -- I MEAN, NOT JUST THE TRUMP YEARS, BUT GOING BACK, EVERYBODY WAS BEMOANING WHO THE TWO CANDIDATES WERE GOING TO BE.

IT'S ALWAYS BEEN THAT -- THE CASE.

I THINK BIDEN HAS DONE A REMARKABLE JOB.

YOU LOOK AT THE JOB NUMBERS, INFLATION COMING DOWN.

YOU LOOK WITH AMAZING TOUGH REPUBLICAN OPPOSITION ON EVERYTHING, THE BIPARTISAN BILLS, INFRASTRUCTURE, AND OTHER THINGS, THE WAY THE ECONOMY'S MOVING, THE BIG RECESSION THAT WAS COMING IS NOW LIKE THE BIG RED WAVE THAT NEVER HAPPENED IN 2022.

I JUST THINK THAT DEMOCRATS ARE BETTER SERVED BY -- WHICH AND I THINK THEY ARE, THEY'RE PRETTY MUCH UNIFIED BEHIND BIDEN.

I THINK THAT THE THREAT OF TRUMP WILL, AGAIN -- AND THE CONTRAST BETWEEN TRUMP AND BIDEN, WHICH IS WHAT WON IN 2020 AND WHAT STOPPED THE RED WAVE FROM MATERIALIZING IN 2022, THAT THAT'S WHY TRUMP CANNOT WIN, HE'S ONLY GOTTEN TO 46% IN BOTH 2016, HE GOT TO 46 AND 2020 HE GOT TO 46.8.

HE CANNOT WIN IF THERE'S ONLY TWO CANDIDATES.

HE'S NEVER -- BIDEN GOT 51% OF THE VOTES.

THERE'S ONLY ONE WAY TRUMP WINS.

THAT'S TO ERODE BIDEN AND TO HAVE A THIRD-PARTY CANDIDATE.

THAT'S WHY NO LABELS IS SUCH A THREAT AS WELL.

>> OKAY.

SO LET ME BRING -- LET ME BRING REBECCA IN THEN BECAUSE I SEE YOU -- I SEE YOU WANTING TO, YOU KNOW, PUT A DIFFERENT POINT OF VIEW ACROSS.

>> WELL, I WANT TO SAY FIRST THAT I ABSOLUTELY AGREE WITH JOE THAT IT IS -- DEMOCRACY IS ABSOLUTELY IN THE BALANCE, AND I PROBABLY AGREE WITH HIM THAT GIVEN THAT BIDEN'S GOING TO BE THE CANDIDATE THAT HE IS THE BEST HOPE FOR DEMOCRACY, THERE'S NO QUESTION.

AND SO I WANT TO SAY THAT UPFRONT, BUT I ALSO WANT TO SAY THAT DEMOCRACY WAS ALSO IN THE BALANCE IN THIS POINT OF INCREDIBLE PRECARETY FOR OUR DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS, FOR THE GLOBE, FOR THE PLANET, THAT WAS ALSO TRUE IN 2020.

IT WAS ALSO TRUE IN 2016.

IT'S GOING TO BE TRUE IN EVERY ELECTION MOVING FORWARD THAT WHAT IS IN THE BALANCE IS DEMOCRACY ITSELF, IS THE HEALTH OF THE PLANET AND ITS PEOPLE, AND THAT THESE DECISIONS ARE CRUCIAL, BUT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY ALSO HAS TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT IT HAS TO FIND A WAY FORWARD THAT'S NOT GOING TO BE JOE BIDEN FOR THE REST OF THE FUTURE, RIGHT?

AND SO THE QUESTIONS -- I MENTIONED EARLIER THAT THERE ARE THESE GENERATIONAL SHIFTS.

OF COURSE THAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN, A GENERATION OF LEADERS WHO CAME TO POWER IN THE SECOND HALF OF THE 20th CENTURY ARE AGING OUT OF POWER, AND YOU CAN SEE HOW THE DIFFERENT PARTIES ARE APPROACHING THOSE SHIFTS, RIGHT?

RIGHT?

WHAT IS THE TWO-PARTY SYSTEM GOING TO LOOK LIKE GOING FORWARD.

I WOULD ARGUE THAT THE RIGHT IS QUITE HOSPITALITY TO TAKE OVER BY ITS HARD RIGHT EXTREMIST FLANK.

YOU SAW THAT IN THE FREEDOM CAUCUS, YOU KNOW.

I WOULD SAY THAT THE LEFT HAS BEEN MUCH MORE AMBIVALENT TO HOSTILE ABOUT ITS YOUNGER GENERATION, MANY OF WHOM LEAN TO THE LEFT OF WHAT LEADERSHIP HAS BEEN FOR THE PAST FEW DECADES.

THIS IS PART OF WHAT WE ARE LOOKING AT MOVING FORWARD IN THESE MOMENTS OF REAL RISK, CALAMITY AND PERIL THAT JOE IS ACCURATELY DESCRIBING.

AND AGAIN, I WANT TO STATE FOR THE RECORD THAT I AGREE, JOE BIDEN AS THE CANDIDATE, AND I'VE BEEN A CRITIC OF HIM FROM THE LEFT AND I ALSO HAVE A LOT OF GOOD THINGS TO SAY ABOUT HIS IS THE PRESIDENCY AND MANY OF THE PROGRESSIVE ECONOMIC POLICIES HE'S PUT INTO PLACE, I WANT TO GIVE HIM A LOT OF CREDIT.

BUT I ALSO WANT TO SAY THAT THE FACT THAT THERE ARE QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS NEXT WITHIN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY ARE VERY REAL AND VERY PRESSING.

>> YES.

>> AND THAT THOSE ARE THE KINDS OF QUESTIONS THAT I THINK THAT CANDIDATES, ALL KINDS OF CANDIDATES WHO ARE COMING IN AS CRITICS OF BIDEN ARE TAKING ADVANTAGE OF RIGHT NOW, IN PART BECAUSE THE PARTY ISN'T DOING A GREAT JOB OF ADDRESSING THEM.

WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN NEXT?

WHO'S GOING TO LEAD US FORWARD?

>> LET'S GET TO THAT IN A SECOND BECAUSE LET'S -- WE OBVIOUSLY KNOW THAT JOE BIDEN IS NOT GOING TO BE THE FOREVER LEADER.

HE'S ONLY GOT ONE MORE TERM POSSIBLE, SO THERE WILL HAVE TO BE SOME KIND OF CHANGING OF THE GUARD AT SOME POINT.

NOW, IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, THEY LOOK TO THE YOUNG MAN, RELATIVELY OBVIOUSLY YOUNG MAN, GOVERNOR DeSANTIS OF FLORIDA.

AND BEFORE WHAT WE'RE SEEING AND WHAT WE'VE SEEN UNFOLD IS A LITTLE SORT OF A STUMBLELY ROCKY CAMPAIGN, HE WAS CONSIDERED A VERY LEGITIMATE AND MAJOR THREAT TO THE DEMOCRATS, BUT THEY -- AND I WANT TO ASK YOU TO WEIGH IN ON THIS, REBECCA AND THEN I'LL GET JOE TRIPPI'S, THEY HAVE GONE FULL WOKE.

BECAUSE YOU'VE POINTED OUT THE ECONOMY IS PRETTY GOOD, EMPLOYMENT IS PRETTY GOOD, THE LEGISLATION HAS BEEN PRETTY SUCCESSFUL, BUT THEY'VE GONE FULL WOKE, ANTI-WOMEN, ALL THE REPRODUCTIVE ISSUES, AND THIS UNBELIEVABLE LEGISLATION OF TRYING TO TEACH FLORIDIAN CHILDREN THAT ACTUALLY SLAVERY HAD BENEFICIAL FALLOUT FOR SLAVES.

I MEAN, CAN YOU EVEN -- CAN YOU EVEN, I DON'T KNOW, IT SEEMS LIKE YOU CAN'T MAKE THIS STUFF UP.

IS THAT REALLY CAMPAIGN MATERIAL, REBECCA?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT'S AN OPEN QUESTION.

I THINK THEY ARE BANKING VERY HARD ON THAT, AND I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF EVIDENCE THAT VOTERS AREN'T NECESSARILY GOING TO RESPOND TO IT.

BUT WE DON'T KNOW -- WE SHALL SEE.

THIS IS ONE OF THE OPEN QUESTIONS IS HOW MUCH ELECTORAL SUCCESS CAN THEY GAIN FROM ROLLING BACK THE ENLIGHTENMENT BASICALLY?

AND THERE'S A LOT OF EVIDENCE, BY THE WAY, SO FAR JUST BECAUSE OF THE TIME LINE THAT SOME OF THE HARD RIGHT RIGHTS ROLLBACKS THAT THEY HAVE ENACTED, FOR EXAMPLE, AROUND ABORTION IN THE WAKE OF DOBBS ARE ACTUALLY PRODUCING RESOUNDING ELECTORAL DEFEATS.

THAT'S SOMETHING I WROTE ABOUT EARLIER THIS YEAR, THAT SOME OF THIS VERY HARD RIGHT TURN IS ENDING VERY BADLY FOR THEM, AND WE HAVE THE EVIDENCE FOR THAT OVER THE PAST YEAR AROUND ABORTION.

REPUBLICANS CONSISTENTLY ARE LOSING EVERY TIME ABORTION IS ON THE BALLOT POST-DOBBS.

SO THESE QUESTIONS REMAIN OPEN, I THINK, FOR SOME OF THESE OTHER EXTREMIST, CRUEL, RACIST XENOPHOBIC, MISOGYNISTIC LAWS THAT ARE BEING PASSED IN STATES LIKE FLORIDA AND TEXAS AND ELSEWHERE.

BUT THIS IS CLEARLY THEIR ONLY STRATEGY MOVING FORWARD, AND THEY'RE LEANING INTO IT HARD.

>> AND JOE, OBVIOUSLY FROM YOUR POINT OF VIEW AS A STRATEGIST, I MEAN, EVERYTHING REBECCA'S SAYING IS TRUE IN THAT IT HAS NOT BEEN AN ELECTORAL WINNER, THESE HARD LINE CULTURE ISSUES IF YOU LOOK AT THE LAST SEVERAL NATIONWIDE ELECTIONS OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS.

SO WHERE DO YOU SEE THE REPUBLICAN CAMPAIGN GOING?

NO MATTER WHO IT MIGHT BE, AND WHO DO YOU THINK MIGHT BREAK OUT OF THE CURRENT PACK, IF AT ALL?

PEOPLE TALK A LOT ABOUT TIM HE'S A SENATOR.

HE'S FROM THE SOUTH.

HE'S GOT A GREAT LIFE STORY.

>> LOOK, I DON'T THINK -- I THINK WHAT REBECCA JUST LISTED IS WHY THE REPUBLICAN PARTY RIGHT NOW IS ON THE VERGE OF LOSING A GENERATION, A GENERATION FOREVER.

I MEAN, PEOPLE TEND IN THEIR FIRST FORMATIVE POLITICAL MOMENTS WHERE THEY ALIGN AND VOTE ONE WAY, THEY TEND TO LEAN THAT WAY EVEN IF THEIR INDEPENDENTS THE REST OF THEIR LIVES.

I WITNESSED THIS IN THE '80s WITH REAGAN, THE REAGAN REVOLUTION CAPTURED AN ENTIRE GENERATION FOR THE REPUBLICAN PARTY THAT GAVE THEM THE PATH TO VICTORY.

THESE ANTI-WOKE, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT MOVE TO -- WHERE TRUMP AND DeSANTIS ARE TRYING TO OUT EXTREME EACH OTHER, AND DeSANTIS IS WINNING RIGHT NOW GOING EVEN FURTHER EXTREME THAN TRUMP, BUT LOSING VOTES WHILE HE DOES IT, THAT'S TAKING -- THAT'S LOSING THIS YOUNGER GENERATION, WHETHER IT WAS JOE BIDEN IN HIS AGE OR GAVIN NEWSOM OR WHOEVER YOU WOULD THINK ABOUT THE NOMINEE ON THE DEMOCRATIC SIDE, THAT GENERATION IS NOT VOTING FOR HOMOPHOBIA, FOR RACISM, FOR -- AND TO TAKE AWAY WOMEN'S RIGHTS.

IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN, NOT THIS YOUNGER GEN Z.

THE SECOND THING I DON'T UNDERSTAND ABOUT ANY OF THIS -- AND I'LL PUT IT OUT THERE -- IS OKAY, TELL ME WHO WINS, WHO BEATS TRUMP?

PICK ONE, GIVE IT TO ME, DeSANTIS, TIM SCOTT, WHOEVER.

OKAY.

THEY WON, WE WAVE OUR WAND, IT HAPPENS.

ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HIS LIFE, DONALD TRUMP WILL BE GRACIOUS, WILL GO TO THE CONVENTION, HOLD HIS HANDS UP IN THE AIR WITH THE PERSON WHO DEFEATED HIM, TELL THEM THAT IT'S A GREAT THING AND URGE ALL HIS MAGA SUPPORTERS TO JOIN WITH HIM IN SUPPORTING THE REPUBLICAN NOMINEE?

IT ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN.

SO IT IS A FUTILE -- OKAY, SO YOU BEAT HIM AND THEN WHAT?

YOU GET CRUSHED IN THE GENERAL ELECTION BECAUSE HE WILL TELL HIS FOLKS TO STAY HOME AND STAND ON THEIR HANDS BECAUSE IT WAS STOLEN, DeSANTIS, YOU KNOW, PULLED A HOAX ON YOU, WHATEVER IS GOING TO HAPPEN.

I JUST THINK IN THE END THIS IS A FIGHT BETWEEN I THINK TRUMPISM AND DEMOCRACY, AND I THINK, AGAIN, AS I SAID EARLIER, I WOULDN'T BEGRUDGE ANY OF THESE POTENTIAL CANDIDACIES.

I JUST THINK IT'S A RECKLESS TIME TO DO IT, EVEN IF YOU ARE UNHAPPY ABOUT BIDEN'S AGE.

OKAY.

>> THE STAKES ARE SO HIGH.

JOE TRIPPI, REBECCA TRAISTER, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED FOR BEING WITH US TODAY.

>>> NOW, RUSSIA'S WAR ON UKRAINE WILL OF COURSE BE A TOP PRIORITY FOR WHOEVER IS PRESIDENT.

IN LATEST REPORTS FROM THE RUSSIAN FRONT, AT LEAST 15,000 PRISON RECRUITS ARE BELIEVED TO HAVE BEEN SENT TO FIGHT UKRAINE.

AND THEIR FATALITY RATE IS STAGGERING.

CORRESPONDENT NICK PATON WALSH HAS OBTAINED RARE AND EXCLUSIVE TESTIMONY FROM THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN SWEPT UP INTO PUTIN'S BRUTAL WAR MACHINE.

THEIR NAMES HAVE BEEN CHANGED FOR THEIR SAFETY.

>> Reporter: RUSSIA IS OFTEN CRUELLEST TO ITS OWN.

THE BLEAKEST FATE, PRISONERS RECRUITED BY THE MINISTRY OF DEFENSE AS CANNON FODDER.

THEY HAVE DEATH RATES HARD TO FATHOM.

HERE ARE TWO RARE STORIES, ONE OF INCREDIBLE SURVIVAL AND ANOTHER OF A YOUNG AND QUICK DEATH TOLD TO CNN AT GREAT RISK FROM INSIDE RUSSIA.

EX-CON SERGEI BARELY MADE IT BACK, NOW HE WORKS TWO JOBS AND CAN'T SLEEP BECAUSE HIS EARS STILL RING FROM SHELL SHOCK.

WE FIRST TALKED WHEN HE'D BEEN SHOT FOR THE SECOND TIME, BUT HE WAS STILL SENT BACK INJURED.

FROM 600 PRISONERS RECRUITED ONLY 170 ARE ALIVE, AND ONLY TWO OF THEM WITHOUT INJURY.

SENT AGAIN AND AGAIN IN WAVES TO ATTACK UKRAINIAN POSITIONS.

>> Translator: I REMEMBER MOST CLEARLY THE LAST OF THE NINE CONCUSSIONS I HAD.

WE ATTACKED.

RPGs, DRONES FLEW WITH US, OUR COMMANDER YELLS ON THE RADIO.

I DON'T CARE.

GO AHEAD, DON'T COME BACK UNTIL YOU TAKE THIS POSITION.

TWO OF US FOUND A SMALL HOLE AND DIVED IN THERE.

A DRONE THREW A GRENADE AT US, AND IT LANDED IN THE 30 CENTIMETER GAP BETWEEN US.

MY FRIEND WAS COVERED WITH SHRAPNEL ALL OVER, YET I WAS UNTOUCHED SOMEHOW.

BUT I LOST MY SIGHT FOR FIVE HOURS.

>> Reporter: HE ONLY STAYED IN HOSPITAL THAT TIME AND GOT HOME AS DOCTORS MADE HIM AN ORDERLY.

HE HAS NIGHTMARES THAT HE IS TOLD TO BE FIRST OUT OF THE TRENCH AGAIN, BUT DAILY LIFE IN THE TRENCH WAS A NIGHTMARE TOO OF FROSTBITE, HUNGER AND THIRST.

>> Translator: SOMETIMES WE DNT EAT FOR SEVERAL DAYS, WE DIDN'T DRINK FOR SEVERAL DAYS.

IT WAS A FOUR KILOMETER WALK TO WATER, AND THANK GOD IT WAS WINTER.

WE WERE DRINKING THE SNOW.

SOMETIMES THE COMMANDER RESET PEOPLE.

HE ZEROED THEM OUT, KILLED THEM.

I ONLY SAW IT ONCE, A FIGHT WITH A MAN WHO STOLE AND KILLED HIS OWN PEOPLE.

I DIDN'T SEE WHO OF THE FOUR PEOPLE AROUND HIM SHOT, BUT WHEN HE TRIED TO ESCAPE, A BULLET HIT HIM IN THE BACK OF THE HEAD.

I SAW THE HEAD WOUND.

THEY CARRIED HIM AWAY.

>> Reporter: FOR SOME IT NEVER GOT THAT FAR.

ANDREI WAS 20 WHEN HE WAS JAILED ON DRUGS OFFENSES AND 23 WHEN HE WAS SENT FROM PRISON TO THE FRONT.

THIS TRAINING WAS FLEETING.

HIS MOTHER JULIA SAID HE'D YET TO GROW INTO A MAN, STILL KIDDING ABOUT.

[ SPEAKING IN A NON-ENGLISH LANGUAGE ] >> Reporter: LIKE WITH MANY PRISON RECRUITS, HE JUST DISAPPEARED.

BUT IT WAS ON MAY THE 9th, VICTORY DAY IN RUSSIA WHEN PRESIDENTIAL POMP IN MOSCOW MARKED THE NAZI'S DEFEAT.

ANDREI CALLED HER THE NIGHT BEFORE TO SAY HIS UNIT WOULD ATTACK AT DAWN.

[ SPEAKING IN A NON-ENGLISH LANGUAGE ] >> Reporter: WE THINK THESE RUINS ARE NEAR WHERE HE DIED, UP TO 60 OTHERS YULIA HEARD DIED IN THE SAME ASSAULT THAT DAY.

YULIA GOT NOTHING, NO BODY.

JUST A LETTER FROM THE MILITARY SAYING ANDREI HAD DIED THE VERY DAY HE LEFT JAIL.

[ SPEAKING IN A NON-ENGLISH LANGUAGE ] >> Reporter: THE HORROR RUSSIA INFLICTS ON UKRAINE IT SEEMS MATCHED NEARLY BY THAT DONE AT HOME.

>> NICK PATON WALSH THERE, IT IS AN UGLY, UGLY STORY THIS ILLEGAL RUSSIAN WAR IN UKRAINE.

>>> NOW, IMAGINE WINNING A GENERAL ELECTION BUT BEING BLOCKED BY PARLIAMENT FROM BECOMING PRIME MINISTER.

THAT'S WHAT'S JUST HAPPENED IN THAILAND, 42-YEAR-OLD PITA LIMJAROENRAT SAILED TO VICTORY IN MAY ONLY TO BE STYMIED BY THE MILITARY AND THE ROYALISTS WHO SEE THE HARVARD-EDUCATED REFORMER AS A THREAT TO THE MONARCHY.

HIS SUPPORTERS FLOODED THE STREETS AND NOW IT'S UNCLEAR WHAT WILL HAPPEN NEXT.

PITA LIMJAROENRAT IS JOINING ME NOW LIVE FROM BANGKOK.

AND WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

SO WE'VE BEEN DISCUSSING IN THIS PROGRAM -- WELCOME, WELCOME -- THE IDEA OF YOUNGER GENERATIONS, THE NEED AND THE DEMAND FOR REFORM WHEREVER IT MIGHT BE, IN THE WEST, IN ASIA, IN -- ALL A OVER.

WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO YOUR SUPPORTERS, TO THE PROTESTERS WHO ARE IN THE STREETS, TO THE VERY IDEA OF DEMOCRACY IN THAILAND, IF SOMEBODY WON THE ELECTION IS SIMPLY BARRED FROM TAKING HIS SEAT?

>> I THINK WHAT THE PROTESTERS ARE DEMANDING IS THAT IN ANY FUNCTIONING DEMOCRACY, WHOEVER WINS THE ELECTION SHOULD BECOME THE PRIME MINISTER AND HAVE THE -- BOTH THE AUTHORITY AND THE LEGITIMACY TO LEAD.

HOWEVER, THE CURRENT SITUATION IN THAILAND, JUST TO GIVE SOME CONTEXT TO THE VIEWER, IS THE CLASH BETWEEN THE POLITICS OF ELECTED AND APPOINTED, YOU KNOW.

THE LOWER HOUSE IS THROUGH ELECTION, WHICH I WON.

THE UPPER HOUSE, THE SENATORS ARE APPOINTED BY THE MILITARY JUNTA AFTER THE COUP, SO BECAUSE OF THAT, TO CHOOSE A PRIME MINISTER, YOU HAVE TO HAVE THE CONSENSUS OF BOTH THE ELECTED OFFICIALS AS WELL AS THE APPOINTED OFFICIALS.

SO THAT'S BASICALLY THAI POLITICAL LANDSCAPE IN A NUTSHELL.

THAT'S WHAT'S GOING ON ON A OFFICIAL LEVEL.

>> WHAT IS YOUR RECOURSE THEN?

BECAUSE YOUR OPPONENTS HAVE ACCUSED YOU OF ESSENTIALLY DISQUALIFYING YOURSELF BECAUSE OF HOLDING SHARES IN A MEDIA COMPANY.

WHAT IS THAT ALL ABOUT?

>> IT'S A MADE UP CASE AGAINST MY PRIME MINISTERAL CANDIDACY, THE FACT IS I DON'T EVEN OWN THE SHARES.

MY LATE FATHER OWN IT.

IT'S A DEFUNCT MEDIA COMPANY THAT CLOSED DOWN 17 YEARS AGO, AND I CAN'T EVER GET ANY POLITICAL GAINS FROM HOLDING THOSE SHARES AS AN INHERITANCE MANAGEMENT.

HOWEVER, WITH THE COINCIDENCE, THE CASE AGAINST ME WAS DECIDED TWO HOURS BEFORE MY PRIME MINISTERIAL ELECTION INTO THE PARLIAMENT.

SO THAT'S A KIND OF COINCIDENCE THAT BEGS SKEPTICISM FROM BOTH THE THAI MEDIA AS WELL AS THE INTERNATIONAL MEDIA THAT FOLLOW THAI POLITICS PRETTY CLOSELY.

>> BUT COULD IT -- WHAT IS YOUR RESOURCE GOING TO BE OR YOUR RESORT GOING TO BE?

BECAUSE YOU KNOW, THEY SAY YOU MIGHT BE SUSPENDED.

NOT ONLY WON'T YOU BECOME PRIME MINISTER, YOU MIGHT NOT EVEN HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO CONTINUE IN PARLIAMENT.

CAN YOU USE THIS ACCUSATION TO YOUR BENEFIT?

DO YOU THINK YOU CAN WIN A CASE AND SOMEHOW REVIVE YOUR POLITICAL CAREER?

>> WELL, FIRST THINGS FIRST.

MY RENOMINATION AS THE PRIME MINISTER OF THAILAND IS STILL POSSIBLE.

A LOT OF CASES THAT WAS DONE AGAINST ME AS PER YOUR QUESTION, WHAT I CAN -- WHAT CAN I DO, AT THE VERY MINIMUM, THE RIGHT TO APPEAL, THE RIGHT TO ARGUE MY CASE, THE RIGHT TO TELL MY SIDE OF THE STORY.

THAT IS JUST THE MINIMUM THAT I COULD ASK FOR, BUT CURRENTLY, I DON'T GET ANY OF THOSE CHANCES TO TESTIFY NOR APPEAL THE CASES THAT WERE MADE AGAINST ME AND AGAINST MY PRIME MINISTERIAL CANDIDACY, THAT CONTINUES TO BE SEEN.

IF THERE WAS A CALL FROM THE CONSTITUTIONAL COURT FOR ME TO ARGUE MY CASE AND EXPLAIN MY RATIONALES FOR HOLDING THOSE SHARES FROM MY LATE FATHER AS THE INHERITANCE MANAGER, HOPEFULLY THAT WILL CLEAR THINGS UP AND HOPEFULLY MY CANDIDACY IS BACK ON TRACK.

>> SO THERE'S A LOT OF HOPEFULLY WHAT IS MOST LIKELY.

YOUR OWN -- SOME OF YOUR OWN SUPPORTERS SAY THAT PERHAPS YOU MAY HAVE DUG YOURSELF YOUR OWN HOLE TO AN EXTENT BECAUSE IT APPEARS THAT A LOT OF THIS PUSHBACK AGAINST YOU IS THAT -- IS AROUND THE LAW THAT'S CALLED LESS MAJESTY, WHICH IN THAILAND FORBIDS UNDER PUNISHMENT OF 15 YEARS OR SO IN PRISON, ANY MOCKING, ANY OPPOSITION, ANY PUBLIC CRITICISM OF THE ROYALTY.

AND YOU IN YOUR CAMPAIGN HAD TRIED TO MITIGATE THAT.

IN OTHER WORDS, YOU HAD WANTED, YOU KNOW, YOU DIDN'T TALK ABOUT GETTING RID OF IT.

YOU ACTUALLY TALKED ABOUT PERHAPS REDUCING THE HARSH RESPONSE AND SENTENCES.

DO YOU REGRET THAT?

>> NOT AT ALL.

I THINK IN A NUTSHELL, I THINK FOR THAILAND TO REMAIN A CONSTITUTIONAL MONARCHY IS THE GOAL OF EVERYONE HERE IN THAILAND.

THERE'S NO ALTERNATIVE WAY OF GOVERNANCE.

HOWEVER, THE ASSESSMENT OF HOW TO REACH THAT GOAL FOR THAILAND TO REMAIN A CONSTITUTIONAL MONARCHY IS DIFFERENT.

SOME OF THE PEOPLE THAT WERE AGAINST MY ATTEMPT TO MODIFY THE LAW MIGHT SAY THAT.

IT ALLOWS CRITICISM OF THE MONARCHY, BUT FOR US I THINK IF YOU MODIFY IT TO BE ON THE INTERNATIONAL PAR THAT ALLOWS, YOU KNOW -- DOES NOT PERMIT OR DOES NOT ALLOW POLITICAL OPPONENTS TO BRING MONARCHY DOWN TO THE LEVEL OF POLITICS AND USE THE MONARCHY TO DESTROY THE POLITICAL OPPONENTS USING ARTICLE 112.

SO WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO DO IS TO REMAIN A CONSTITUTIONAL ABOVE THE POLITICS WHERE MONARCHY IS SUPPOSED TO BE IN ANY COUNTRY THAT IS GOVERNED BY CONSTITUTIONAL MONARCHY.

BUT APPARENTLY PEOPLE USE THAT AS A WEAPON AGAINST US TO DESTROY US.

WHICH IT'S NOT THE FIST TIME IN THAI HISTORY.

I MEAN, IF YOU FOLLOW THAI POLITICS CLOSELY IN EVERY DECADE, 10 YEARS AGO, 20 YEARS AGO, 30 YEARS AGO MONARCHY WOULD BE USED FOR POLITICAL ADVANTAGE, WHICH IS WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO STOP SO THAT WE CAN GET OUT OF THE POLITICAL CONFLICT, HAVE THE CONCENTRATION TO BE AN ACTIVE MEMBER OF THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY.

THAT'S WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO DO.

>> AND AS YOU MENTIONED, THAILAND, YOUR COUNTRY HAS BEEN RULED BY A MILITARY JUNTA SINCE THE COUP IN 2014, STRUCK DOWN THE PREVIOUS DEMOCRATIC GOVERNMENT.

IS IT JUST THAT THAT THEY ARE CONCERNED ABOUT YOUR CRITICS, OR WHAT OTHER REFORMS WERE YOU TRYING AND DID YOU CAMPAIGN ON THAT OBVIOUSLY GOT THE OPPONENTS AND THE RULING OPPONENTS TO BASICALLY JUST STOP YOU?

>> I THINK THE REASON FOR EXISTENCE OF MY PARTY, MOVE FORWARD PARTY, CAN BE SUMMARIZED IN A SENTENCE.

THAT'S THREE D'S, DEMONOPOLIZE, DECENTRALIZE, AND DEMILITARIZE THAILAND.

OBVIOUSLY IT REQUIRES A LOT OF HARD-HEADED REFORMS TO TAKE MILITARY OUT OF THAI POLITICS, TO MAKE SURE THAT THE MILITARY IS PROFESSIONAL AND UP TO DATE WITH THE CURRENT CHALLENGES OF THE 21st CENTURY, ALSO TO DEMONOPOLIZE THE ECONOMIC STRUCTURE OF THAILAND AS WELL AS THE GOVERNANCE IN THE PUBLIC SERVICE, TO DECENTRALIZE TO VARIOUS PARTS OF THE THAILAND.

BANGKOK IS NOT THAILAND, AND THAILAND IS NOT BANGKOK.

SO OBVIOUSLY AS YOU CAN IMAGINE, FROM THE MILITARY, FROM -- RESISTANCE FROM CAPITALISM, THE RESISTANCE FROM PUBLIC SERVANTS HERE IN THAILAND.

BUT I THINK IF I HAVE ENOUGH TIME TO EXPLAIN AND TO CONVINCE THEM THAT IT'S REALLY A WIN-WIN SITUATION AND IT REALLY IS A WAY OUT FOR THAILAND TO MOVE FORWARD GIVEN THE CURRENT CHALLENGES IN THE GLOBAL ARENA AND HOW WE CAN BECOME AN ACTIVE MEMBER OF THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY AND GET BACK TO THE CURRENT STATE OF THE WORLD.

>> SO FINALLY, FIRST, THE MESSAGE TO YOUR SUPPORTERS, I WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO TELL THEM BECAUSE THEY'RE STILL ON THE STREET.

AND SECONDLY, WOULD YOU ENDORSE, IF IT CAME TO IT, THE PRO-DEMOCRACY PARTY THAT GOT THE SECOND NUMBER OF VOTES FEW THAI, IT GOT THE SECOND LARGEST VOTES IN THIS RECENT ELECTION, WOULD YOU ENDORSE THEM?

>> OKAY.

THERE'S THREE STEPS TO YOUR QUESTION, SO LET ME -- >> WE GOT 90 SECONDS.

WE GOT 90 SECONDS.

>> YES, FIRST OF ALL, TO THE SUPPORTERS, WE WILL WIN DEFINITELY IF NOT IMMEDIATELY, SO HOPEFULLY WE'LL BE ABLE TO COLLECT SMALL VICTORIES SO THAT WE CAN MOVE THE COUNTRY FORWARD.

YES, I ENDORSE OR SUPPORT THE SECOND VICTORIOUS PARTY TO FORM A COALITION BECAUSE IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT A PERSONAL GOAL FOR ME TO BECOME PRIME MINISTER, BUT I THINK IT'S TO STOP THAILAND FROM VICIOUS CYCLE OF MILITARY DICTATORSHIP.

AND I THINK TO THE SUPPORT OF THE PROTEST, I THINK THAT TO THE RIGHT OF FREEDOM OF ASSEMBLY IN A PEACEFUL MANNER, I THINK THAT'S REALLY AN ESSENTIAL PART IN ANY DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY.

IT'S NOT JUST THE ELECTION BUT ALSO FREEDOM OF THE PRESS AND ALSO OF THE RIGHT TO ASSEMBLY AS WELL.

>> IT'S GOOD, IT'S GOOD, LIMJAROENRAT THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED AND FOR PUTTING THIS GENERATION OF THAI POLITICS ON THE MAP FOR OUR VIEWERS.

>>> AND TURNING BACK TO AMERICA NOW AND ITS FAVORITE PASTIME, BASEBALL, MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL OF COURSE BANNED AFRICAN AMERICAN ATHLETES AT THE END OF THE 19th CENTURY.

THEY CREATED THEIR OWN LEAGUE THE P. ITS SUCCESS AND POPULARITY IS THE FOCUS OF A NEW DOCUMENTARY CALLED "THE LEAGUE", AND HERE'S A CLIP FROM THE TRAILER.

>> A FEW ENTREPRENEURS SEE THAT A BLACK CLUB CAN BE A SUCCESSFUL BUSINESS.

>> RUBE FOSTER, LIGHT YEARS AHEAD OF HIS TIME.

>> THE FIRST LADY OF BLACK BASEBALL.

>> NEGRO LEAGUES PLAYERS MADE THE GAME MORE UP TEMPO, BUNT AND RUN.

>> BASE STEALING, THESE INCREDIBLY ACROBATIC CATCHERS.

>> THE MAJOR LEAGUERS WOULD SAY THAT THE NEGRO LEAGUERS DIDN'T PLAY THE GAME THE RIGHT WAY.

REALLY THAT WAS A THEY DIDN'T PLAY THE GAME THE WHITE WAY.

>> AND THE CRITICALLY ACCLAIMED DIRECTOR SAM POLLARD IS JOINING WALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS HOW AND TRANSFORMED THE COUNTRY.

>> SAM POLLARD, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

CONGRATULATIONS ON THIS GREAT DOCUMENTARY, "THE LEAGUE".

>> THANK YOU, WALTER.

GREAT BEING HERE.

>> LIKE ME, YOU ARE A ST. LOUIS CARDINALS FAN GROWING UP, AND I WANT TO TAKE YOU BACK TO THE YEAR 1964, AN AMAZING YEAR WHEN THEY COME FROM BEHIND TO WIN THE PENNANT.

THEY'VE GOT BILL WHITE, AND YOU KNOW, GREAT FIRST BASEMAN, DEFENSIVE PLAYER, WINS THE GOLDEN GLOVE.

CURT FLOOD WHO LED THE NATIONAL LEAGUE IN HITS AND TRADED TO THEM IN THE MIDDLE OF THE SEASON IS LOU BROCK WHO STEALS ALL THESE BASES.

ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT THEM IS THEY'RE ALL AFRICAN AMERICANS.

WHEN YOU'RE WATCHING THAT PENNANT RATE, DID YOU THINK ABOUT THE FACT THAT THEY WERE AFRICAN AMERICANS, AND DID YOU REALIZE THAT JUST 20 YEARS BEFORE THEY WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN ABLE TO PLAY?

>> YOU KNOW, I KNEW A LITTLE BIT ABOUT JACKIE ROBINSON INTEGRATES MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL IN '47 LOUIS CARDINALS FAN I BECAME A CARDINALS FAN.

IT WAS THE IDEA OF LOU BROCK AND BOB GIBSON ON THE FIELD THAT MADE IT SO SPECIAL FOR ME.

I DON'T KNOW IF I WAS REALLY THINKING ABOUT THESE WERE AFRICAN AMERICAN PLAYERS, BUT YOU KNOW, THEY WERE NEGRO PLAYERS FOR ME BACK THEN SO IT WAS IMPORTANT JUST TO SEE THEM ON THE FIELD.

I WATCHED IT ON TV.

WE HAD THE LITTLE BLACK AND WHITE TV, AND WE SAW THE GAMES.

SO WHEN I GOT THE OPPORTUNITY TO WORK ON THIS DOCUMENTARY ABOUT THE NEGRO LEAGUES, AND TO REALLY DIG INTO NOT ONLY UNDERSTANDING WHO SATCHEL PAIGE WAS OR JOSH GIBSON WAS WHO I KNEW ABOUT WHEN I WAS 14 AND 15, NOW I GOT TO LEARN ABOUT RUBE FOSTER, AND MANLY, AND GUS GREENLEE, YOU KNOW, AND CUM POSEY, AND ALL THE OTHER PHENOMENAL PLAYERS AND MANAGERS AND OWNERS WHO MADE THE NEGRO LEAGUES, YOU KNOW, SO IMPORTANT IN THE '20s, '30s, AND '40s.

>> YOU KNOW, THE THING THAT STRUCK ME, I DIDN'T KNOW THIS, IS THAT IN THE LATE 1800s, THERE WERE A LOT OF AFRICAN AMERICAN PLAYERS WHO PLAYED ON MOSTLY WHITE TEAMS.

LET'S LOOK AT THE CLIP FROM YOUR DOCUMENTARY THAT TALKS ABOUT THAT.

♪♪ >> AFRICAN AMERICANS HAVE BEEN PLAYING BASEBALL FOR AS LONG AS WHITE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN PLAYING BASEBALL.

AS THE SPORT BEGAN TO TAKE HOLD IN POPULARITY, POST-CIVIL WAR, BLACK PEOPLE WERE THERE ALWAYS.

THERE WERE ORGANIZED BLACK TEAMS AND THEY BARNSTORMED, THEY PLAYED AGAINST OTHER BLACK TEAMS, THEY PLAYED AGAINST WHITE TEAMS.

>> THERE WERE BLACKS WHO DID PLAY WITH WHITES ON TEAMS.

THE TEAM WAS MAJORITY WHITE.

IT MAY HAVE ONE OR TWO BLACK PLAYERS ON IT.

AND THAT SEEMED TO BE SOMETHING THAT WAS MORE ACCEPTABLE TO THE WHITE PAYING PUBLIC IF THEY ONLY HAD ONE OR TWO BLACK PLAYERS AS OPPOSED TO A TEAM THAT MIGHT HAVE MAJORITY BLACK PLAYERS AND ONE OR TWO WHITE PLAYERS.

>> BUT AS WE MOVE FORWARD THROUGH HISTORY, WE SEE THAT SEGREGATION STARTS TO TIGHTEN ITS HOLD.

>> TELL ME ABOUT THESE PLAYERS IN THE LATE 1800s.

>> WE ALWAYS -- I WAS ALWAYS UNDER THE ASSUMPTION WHEN I WAS IN MY TEENS THAT IT WAS JACKIE ROBINSON WHO WAS THE FIRST AFRICAN AMERICAN PLAYER WHO WAS INTEGRATED INTO MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL, BUT IN DOING THE RESEARCH, WE LEARNED THERE WAS A GENTLEMAN NAMED MOSES FLEETWOOD WALKER WHO WAS ONE OF THE AFRICAN AMERICANS TO PLAY ON THESE WHITE TEAMS.

AND THERE WERE OTHER BLACK PLAYERS PLAYING ON THOSE TEAMS IN THE 1880s, 1890s, BUT THEN THERE WAS A GENTLEMAN'S AGREEMENT THAT WAS REALLY STARTED BY THE HALL OF FAMER, CAP ANSON WHO BASICALLY DIDN'T WANT TO PLAY WITH BLACK PLAYERS, AND THAT SORT OF JUST REALLY PERMEATED ALL OF THE MAJOR LEAGUE TEAMS WHERE THEY DECIDED NOT TO HAVE ANY BLACK PLAYERS ON THOSE TEAMS, YOU KNOW.

SO THAT'S WHAT LED TO PEOPLE LIKE RUBE FOSTER IN 1920 WITH A BUNCH OF OTHER OWNERS, NEGRO LEAGUE OWNERS SAYING IN KANSAS CITY, MISSOURI, LET'S PUT TOGETHER OUR OWN NATIONAL LEAGUE OF BLACK TEAMS, AND THEY CREATED IN 1920, THE NEGRO NATIONAL LEAGUE, WHICH REALLY FLOURISHED FOR ABOUT TEN YEARS UNTIL THE UNTIMELY DEATH OF RUBE FOSTER AROUND 1929, 1930.

AND THEN THERE WAS ANOTHER SORT OF MAJOR UPHEAVAL IN THE '30s, OUT OF PITTSBURGH, THEY HAD THE FACTORIES AND THEY HAD A LOT OF BLACK PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNITY.

AND TWO MEN BASICALLY STARTED THE SECOND INTEGRATION OF NEGRO BASEBALL, AND THAT WAS A GENTLEMAN NAMED CUM POSEY WHO OWNED THE HOMESTEAD GRAYS AND GUS GREELEY WHO OWNED THE PITTSBURGH CRAWFORDS.

AND THOSE TEAMS AND THOSE PLAYERS ON THOSE TEAMS WERE THE THINGS I REALLY GOT TO KNOW ABOUT AS A YOUNG MAN, AND THOSE ARE PEOPLE LIKE SATCHEL PAIGE, GREAT HOME RUN HITTER JOSH GIBSON, YOU KNOW, THE PLAYER COOL PAPA BELL, BUCK LEONARD, OSCAR CHARLESTON.

THEY WERE SUCH PHENOMENAL PLAYERS, AND THEY WERE SO GOOD THEY CREATED -- IT WAS SORT OF LIKE WE JUST SAW THIS THE PAST COUPLE OF DAYS, THEY CALLED IT THE EAST WEST CLASSIC, WHERE THE BEST PLAYERS FROM THE EASTERN TEAMS AND THE WESTERN TEAMS WOULD COME TOGETHER AND THEY WOULD PLAY BASEBALL, AND YOU KNOW AND I KNOW THAT BACK THEN WHEN WE WERE YOUNG THEN, BASEBALL WAS THE AMERICAN PASTIME.

EVERYBODY LOVED BASEBALL.

IT'S NOT THE CASE SO MUCH ANYMORE, BUT BACK THEN THAT WAS EVERYTHING EVERYBODY TALKED ABOUT.

YOU KNOW, BASEBALL, BASEBALL, BASEBALL.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE PEOPLE IN THIS DOCUMENTARY.

RUBE FOSTER FASCINATED ME.

>> RUBE FOSTER IS PHENOMENAL PERSON.

FIRST OF ALL, HE WAS A GREAT PITCHER.

THEN HE BECAME A WONDERFUL OWNER OF THE CHICAGO AMERICAN GIANTS.

THEN HOE DECIDED I'M GOING TO BRING TOGETHER NOT ONLY MY TEAM BUT OTHER NEGRO TEAMS AND OWNERS TO CREATE THE NEGRO NATIONAL LEAGUE.

HE IS THE FATHER OF NEGRO LEAGUE BASEBALL.

HE HAD AN UNTIMELY DEATH IN 1929, 1930, BUT HIS LEGACY HAS STOOD THE TEST OF TIME, AND HE IS IN THE HALL OF FAME.

AND THEN HIS MANTLE, THAT MANTLE IS PASSED ON TO TWO OTHER GREAT OWNERS, CUM POSEY WHO OWNED THE HOMESTEAD GRAYS AND GUS GREELEY WHO OWNED THE PITTSBURGH CRAWFORDS, THOSE TWO MEN ALONE IN THEIR '30s, GREELEY REIGNITED NEGRO BASEBALL, THEY HAD WONDERFUL PLAYERS, SATCHEL PAIGE, PHENOMENAL PITCHER, JOSH GIBSON GREAT HITTER.

COOL PAPA BELL WHO COULD RUN THE BASE WITH LIGHTNING SPEED, OSCAR CHARLESTON, BUCK LEONARD, YOU KNOW, THEY HAD GREAT PLAYERS.

THEN YOU SAW AFTER WORLD WAR II, THERE WAS ANOTHER GROUP OF PLAYERS WHO WOULD BE THE FIRST GROUP WHO WOULD GO INTO MAJOR LEAGUES.

MONTE IRVIN WHO WENT TO THE NEW YORK GIANTS AFTER WILLIE MAYS.

YOU KNOW, WILLIE MAYES, ROY CAMPANELLA, DON NEW COME, THE LIST GOES ON AND ON.

THE HISTORY WAS EXTREMELY IMPACTFUL.

WHEN I'M DOING THESE DOCUMENTARIES ABOUT THE AFRICAN AMERICAN EXPERIENCE, I WANT PEOPLE TO CLEARLY UNDERSTAND IT WAS A PART OF AMERICAN HISTORY.

>> YEAH, LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT PART OF AMERICAN HISTORY BECAUSE STARTING WITH PLESSY V. FERGUSON, THAT'S WHERE THE SEGREGATION HAPPENS IN BASEBALL, BUT YOU ALSO SEE IN THE 1920s, EVEN 1930s DURING THE DEPRESSION WHEN THE NEGRO LEAGUES COME UP, IT'S CONNECTED WITH THE NEWSPAPERS, LIKE THE CHICAGO DEFENDER.

IT'S CONNECTED WITH BLACK-OWNED BUSINESSES, SO -- AND IT EVEN FEELS LIKE A MOVEMENT IN YOUR DOCUMENTARY, LIKE ALMOST A CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT.

TELL ME HOW IT'S CONNECTED TO U.S. HISTORY.

>> WELL, HERE'S THE IMPORTANT THING TO REMEMBER, THAT BLACK COMMUNITIES, WHICH WERE BASICALLY SEGREGATED BECAUSE WE HAD BEEN SEEN AS SECOND CLASS CITIZENS, WE HAD TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO SURVIVE BOTH, YOU KNOW, CULTURALLY AND ECONOMICALLY, YOU BUSINESSES.

WE HAD TO HAVE OUR OWN DOCTORS.

WE HAD TO HAVE OUR OWN LAWYERS AND THE NEGRO LEAGUE TEAMS, OWNERS WAS A PART OF THE ECONOMIC ENGINE IN THOSE COMMUNITIES.

BLACK PEOPLE COULD GO TO BASEBALL GAMES ON THE WEEKEND.

THEY COULD BUY STUFF FROM THE CONCESSION STANDS.

THEY COULD BUY, YOU KNOW, THEY COULD SEE THE PLAYERS PLAY AND GOT PAID, YOU KNOW.

SO THE MONEY THAT WAS GENERATED BY THE NEGRO LEAGUE OWNERS AND THE TEAMS WENT BACK INTO THE BLACK COMMUNITY, AND THAT'S HOW THESE COMMUNITIES WERE ABLE TO SURVIVE, YOU KNOW, AND FLOURISH.

YOU KNOW, BECAUSE WE WEREN'T BEING GIVEN ANYTHING.

WE WERE TREATED AS SECOND CLASS CITIZENS.

SO IT WAS IMPORTANT THAT THESE TEAMS CAME ABOUT BECAUSE LIKE THE FUNERAL PARLORS, LIKE THE DENTISTS, LIKE THE DOCTORS, LIKE THE STORES, THERE WAS ANOTHER WAY FOR ECONOMICALLY FOR THE COMMUNITIES TO FLOURISH.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT RUBE FOSTER BEING A GREAT PITCHER, BUT THEN HELPS FORM THE NEGRO LEAGUES.

COMPARE HIM AS A PITCHER TO SATCHEL PAIGE, THE MOST FAMOUS COMING OUT OF THE MEE NOOE GROW LEAGUE.

>> THE THING ABOUT SATCHEL PAIGE HISTORICALLY AND LEGEND WISE, HE IS CONSIDERED THE GREATEST NEGRO LEAGUE PITCHER EVER.

IN THE FILM WE TELL A STORY OF HOW HE HAD THE INFIELD SIT DOWN, THE OUTFIELD COME IN, AND HE STRUCK OUT NINE STRAIGHT BATTERS.

YOU KNOW, THAT SHOWS YOU, YOU KNOW, HE STRUCK OUT THREE BATTERS WITH NINE PITCHES.

THAT SHOWS YOU HOW GREAT A PLAYER HE WAS.

>> AND IT ALSO SHOWS WHAT A SHOWMAN HE WAS.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT BARNSTORMING TIME IN THE '30s WITH DIZZY AND DAFFY DEAN PLAYING SATCHEL PAIGE'S TEAM.

WHAT WAS THAT ALL ABOUT?

>> WELL, IT WAS ABOUT MAKING SOME EXTRA MONEY.

IT WAS OFF SEASON AND THESE TEAMS -- IT WASN'T LIKE THE BASEBALL PLAYERS TODAY WHO MAKES MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF DOLLARS.

WHEN THE SEASON WAS OVER AND BASEBALL PLAYERS NEED TO SURVIVE, THEY WOULD GO AROUND THE COUNTRY, AND THEY WOULD PLAY LOCAL TEAMS.

THEY WOULD PLAY BLACK TEAMS WOULD PLAY WHITE TEAMS.

TO MAKE SOME EXTRA MONEY TO GENERATE SOME CROWDS.

THIS WAS AN OPPORTUNITY WHEN THEY HAD THE WHITE TEAMS PLAYING THE BLACK TEAMS FOR WHITE PEOPLE TO SEE HOW TALENTED THE BLACK NEGRO LEAGUE PLAYERS WERE.

YOU KNOW.

AND THIS LED TO THE WHITE PRESS UNDERSTANDING MAYBE THERE SHOULD BE -- THERE'S SOME TALKS ABOUT INTEGRATION, AND YOU HAD BLACK NEWSPAPERS LIKE THE CHICAGO DEFENDERS, CHICAGO DEFENDER AND THE PITTSBURGH COURIER BASICALLY TOUTING THE SAME THING.

THE IMPORTANCE OF MAYBE INTEGRATING MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL.

>> WE ALWAYS THINK OF JACKIE ROBINSON UP THERE WITH SATCHEL PAIGE, FIRST PERSON TO BE BROUGHT IN TO BE INTEGRATING THE BROOKLYN DODGERS.

FIRST LET'S LOOK AT A CLIP INVOLVING JACKIE ROBINSON.

>> ONE OF THE VERY FIRST TIMES THAT I WENT TO SEE THE GAME AT EBBOTT'S FIELD, GOING ON THE SUBWAY, YOU'D HAVE THOUGHT ALL OF HARLEM WAS HEADING THERE.

EVERYBODY I SEE THEY'RE BRINGING ALONG BASKETS.

IT'S LIKE A BIG PICNIC.

ALL OF HARLEM IS GOING TO EBBOTT'S FIELD, YOU KNOW WHERE THEY'RE GOING AND WHY THEY'RE GOING.

>> JACKIE, EVERYBODY TALKING ABOUT JACKIE.

>> SO TELL ME ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF JACKIE ROBINSON AND THE OWNER, BRANCH RICKIE WHO BROUGHT HIM IN.

I ALWAYS THOUGHT BRANCH RICKIE WAS A HERO BUT NOT SO IN YOUR DOCUMENTARY.

>> LISTEN, WHEN I WAS 14 YEARS OLD, JACKIE ROBINSON WAS THE CAT'S PAJAMAS, MAN.

WE ALL SAID HE WAS THE GREATEST THING TO HAPPEN TO MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL WHEN HE INTEGRATED THE BROOKLYN DODGERS.

AND WE ALL KNOW THE CLASSIC PICTURE OF THE FOOTAGE OF JACKIE ROBINSON SIGN AGO CONTRACT SITTING NEXT TO BRANCH RICKIE, AND BRANCH RICKIE IN TERMS OF MYTHOLOGY IS LOOKED AT AS THIS WONDERFUL HUMAN BEING WHO BASICALLY SAYS TO JACKIE ROBINSON, WE WANT YOU TO INTEGRATE MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL, BUT YOU'VE GOT TO BE ABLE TO DEAL WITH ALL THE OBSCENITIES CONTAINED, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE IT'S GOING TO BE GOOD FOR THE SPORT.

IT'S GOING TO BE GOOD FOR YOUR PEOPLE.

NOW, WHAT WE DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT MR. RICKIE THAT WE LEARNED IN THIS DOCUMENTARY IS THAT HE DIDN'T WANT TO COMPENSATE THE NEGRO LEAGUE OWNERS FOR THE PLAYERS HE SIGNED, SPECIFICALLY JACKIE ROBINSON, ROY CAMPANELLA AND DON NEW COME.

ONE OF THE NEGRO LEAGUE OWNERS, WHO WAS A CO-OWNER OF THE NEWARK EAGLES CHALLENGED THIS IN PRINT, YOU KNOW.

HOW COME BRANCH RICKIE IS NOT COMPENSATING NEGRO LEAGUE OWNERS FOR THE PLAYERS HE'S SIGNING.

HE WAS ABLE TO GET BILL BECK WHO WAS A WONDERFUL SHOWMAN FOR THE CLEVELAND INDIANS TO COMPENSATE HER FOR HIM SIGNING LARRY DOE BEE, WHO BECAME THE FIRST AFRICAN AMERICAN TO PLAY IN THE AMERICAN LEAGUES IN 1948.

SO YOU KNOW, IT'S ALWAYS FOR ME, IT'S ALWAYS INTERESTING WHEN YOU DO THESE DOCUMENTARIES TO BE ABLE TO, YOU KNOW, DIG INTO A STORY AND SEE THE LEVELS OF COMPLEXITY AND SEE THAT IT'S A DIFFERENT WAY THAN THE WAY YOU WERE ORIGINALLY TOLD THE STORY.

>> JACKIE ROBINSON ALSO BECOMES AN EARLY LEADER OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, AN EARLY FACE OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT.

WAS THAT BECAUSE OF HIS EXPERIENCES BECOMING THE FIRST BLACK PLAYER IN THE MAJOR LEAGUES?

AND HOW DID THAT AFFECT HIM?

>> I THINK JACKIE ROBINSON'S, YOU KNOW, BECOMING A VOICE IN THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT GOES BACK TO EVEN BEFORE HE BECAME A BALLPLAYER.

IF YOU REMEMBER, HE WAS COURT MARTIALED, YOU KNOW, IN THE '40s WHEN HE WAS A SOLDIER, OFFICER FOR REFUSING TO NOT SIT IN THE BACK OF THE BUS ON A BUS HE WAS ON.

HE ALWAYS HAD A CERTAIN LEVEL OF PRO ACTIVISM ABOUT WHO HE WAS AS A MAN OF COLOR, AS A BLACK MAN, YOU KNOW.

BUT HE JUST BECAME MUCH MORE FEROCIOUS AND HAD A BIGGER VOICE ABOUT IT AS HIS CAREER EVOLVED AS A BASEBALL PLAYER.

>> TELL ME WHAT THE INTEGRATION OF MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL DID TO THE NEGRO LEAGUES.

>> WELL, WITH PLAYERS LIKE WILLIE MAYES AND HANK AARON AND ERNIE BANKS AND JACKIE ROBINSON -- >> ALL OF WHO CAME FROM THE NEGRO LEAGUES.

>> ALL CAME FROM THE NEGRO LEAGUES, AND YOU KNOW, THE FANS WANTED TO SEE THESE PLAYERS, AND NOW THEY HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO GO TO MAJOR LEAGUE, YOU KNOW, BASEBALL STADIUMS AND SEE THESE PLAYERS, WHICH MEANT THEY DIDN'T GO TO MANY NEGRO LEAGUE GAMES.

AND THE NEGRO LEAGUE TEAMS STARTED TO SUFFER.

THEY'D LOST SOME OF THEIR BEST PLAYERS.

THEY WERE LOSING THEIR CROWDS, YOU KNOW, SO BY 1960, IT BECAME DIMINISHED AND IT WAS LOST FOREVER.

BUT IT'S SORT OF LIKE, YOU KNOW, A METAPHOR FOR WHAT HAPPENS WITH INTEGRATION.

I MEAN, WE ALL KNEW THE IMPORTANCE OF BROWN V. BOARD OF EDUCATION, 1954.

WE ALL KNOW THE IMPORTANCE OF THE MONTGOMERY BUS BOYCOTT, YOU KNOW, BUT INTEGRATION IS A VERY TRICKY THING IN AMERICA.

THERE'S AN UPSIDE AND A DOWNSIDE TO IT IN AMERICA.

EVEN TODAY IN COMMUNITIES ALL ACROSS AMERICA THAT ARE SUPPOSEDLY INTEGRATED BUT THEY'RE NOT, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE OF ECONOMICS, BECAUSE OF, YOU KNOW, COMMUNITY LOCATIONS, YOU KNOW, SO THIS NOTION OF INTEGRATION IN SOME WAYS WAS A DOWNSIDE FOR SOME COMMUNITIES BECAUSE THOSE WHO WERE PROFESSIONALS, THE DOCTORS AND THE LAWYERS WHO HAD BEEN FORCED TO LIVE WITHIN ONE TYPE OF COMMUNITY NOW HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO MOVE OUT OF THOSE COMMUNITIES.

AND IF YOU LOST THOSE KIND OF PEOPLE OUT OF YOUR COMMUNITIES, THEN THE COMMUNITIES WOULD SUFFER FROM AN ECONOMIC PERSPECTIVE.

>> THAT'S FASCINATING, AND THAT REALLY STRUCK ME AT THE END OF YOUR DOCUMENTARY, WHICH TALKS ABOUT BASEBALL, BUT IT'S ALSO ABOUT SOCIETY, AMERICA AS A WHOLE, AND ABOUT CIVIL RIGHTS IN AMERICA, THAT DOUBLE-EDGED SWORD OF INTEGRATION.

TELL ME ABOUT YOUR PROBABLY COMPLEX EMOTIONS ON THAT.

>> WELL, HERE I AM AS A YOUNG BLACK MAN IN THE '60s, WALTER, AND WHAT WAS I TOLD AS A YOUNG AFRICAN AMERICAN IN '64, '65.

FORGET ABOUT WHO YOU ARE, WHERE YOU COME FROM, BECOME A PART OF THE AMERICAN MELTING POT, AND EVERYTHING WILL BE FINE.

RIGHT?

NOW, I BOUGHT THAT WHOLE HOG, I BOUGHT IT COMPLETELY.

IT WAS ONLY UNTIL MY 20s THAT I REALIZED THAT BEING AMERICAN IS VERY COMPLICATED.

THE HISTORY AND THE GENESIS OF THIS COUNTRY, WHICH IS BASED ON ENSLAVED PEOPLE, BASED ON THE DECIMATION OF NATIVE PEOPLE, IS A LONG AND COMPLICATED HISTORY, AND AS AN AFRICAN AMERICAN WHO BASICALLY AS SHERMAN HENCELY WOULD SAY IN MOVE ON UP, YOU KNOW, IN THE JEFFERSONS, I HAD THE SAME PHILOSOPHY BUT AT WHAT PRICE?

EVERYTHING IS AT A PRICE, YOU KNOW, SO IT'S ALWAYS COMPLICATED FEELINGS, WHEN IT'S LIKE, YOU KNOW, I LIVE IN BALTIMORE, AND ISN'T COMPLETELY THE BLACK COMMUNITY, AND EVEN THOUGH IT'S CLOSE BY, AND IT'S ALWAYS A CHALLENGE TO UNDERSTAND WHERE YOU WANT TO BE AND HOW YOU WANT TO BE AND HOW YOU RECEIVE YOURSELF IN THIS AMERICAN, IN THIS NOTION OF BEING AN AMERICAN.

>> AND SO BASEBALL IS ALWAYS A METAPHOR FOR AMERICA.

>> FOR ME IT IS.

>> SAM POLLARD, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> MY PLEASURE, WALTER.

MY PLEASURE.

>>> AN AMAZING PIECE OF HISTORY AND THE "LEAGUE" IS NOW AVAILABLE TO STREAM.

>>> FINALLY TONIGHT, HONORING EMMETT TILL ON WHAT WOULD HAVE BEEN HIS 82nd BIRTHDAY.

PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS ANNOUNCED A NEW NATIONAL MONUMENT TO REMEMBER TILL AND HIS MOTHER, MAMIE TILL MOBLEY.

IN 1955, EMMETT TILL WAS ABDUCTED, SHOT, AND DUMPED IN THE TALL HATCH CHI RIVER IN MISSISSIPPI FOR ALLEGEDLY WHISTLING AT A WHITE WOMAN.

HIS MOTHER INSISTED ON AN OPEN CASKET FUNERAL SO THE WORLD COULD WITNESS THE HORRIFIC BRUTALITY THAT MUTILATED HER SON AND AS WE REPORTED AT THE START OF THIS PROGRAM, THIS MEMORIAL IS BEING DEDICATED JUST AS SOME STATES ARE RESTRICTING HOW RACE IS TAUGHT IN AMERICAN SCHOOLS.

AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWS LETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANKS FOR WATCHING AND GOOD BYE FROM LONDON.