- [Kelly] Governor Roy Cooper's officially being vetted as a vice presidential contender.

This is former President Trump, and North Carolina Republican candidates campaign in Charlotte.

This is "State Lines."

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[rousing music] ♪ - Hello, and welcome back to "State Lines."

Join us at the table.

I'm Kelly McCullen.

Joining all of us for a conversation to share their expertise, man of many hats, Attorney General, Secretary of State, gubernatorial candidate, and weekend Gardner Rufus Edmisten.

Senator Natalie Murdoch joins us as well from Chatham and Durham counties.

Representative Aaron Paray of Wake County in seat four.

John Locke Foundation's Mitch Koki, good friend of this program.

Thank you so much for being on the show.

I can't wait to pick your brains about a lot going on.

And we were talking off camera about how we try to keep this show focused at the state level.

There's just too much nationally happening, starting with Vice President Kamala Harris' elevation to now presumptive democratic presidential nominee.

It's opening a door for governors to serve as her running mate.

Governor Roy Cooper of right here in North Carolina is officially being vetted as a democratic vice presidential candidate.

Others, among many, Kentucky Governor Andy Beshear, Pennsylvania's Josh Shapiro, Governor Cooper appeared on MSNBC's morning Joe this week.

- Well, I appreciate people talking about me, but I think the focus right now needs to be on her this week.

And she needs to concentrate on making sure that she's secures this nomination, and gets the campaign ready to go.

I think it's really important that we do keep the focus on her this week.

The vice presidential conversation needs to occur later.

- Alright, Senator Murdoch here.

Right now, one of your hats is the, I would say Biden-Harris, it's Harris and question mark campaign.

- Yes.

[laughs] Are you allowed to go in support of any vice presidential contender, or will you analyze this one straight down the middle, even though you're from North Carolina?

- Yeah, so officially, yes, we are now the "Harris for President Campaign," and cannot skip over how historic it is.

I actually was the first black woman under 40 to be elected to the house or the Senate.

So it's been a very uplifting, inspiring, and emotional week.

I think it shows the power of what you can do in America by her being elevated to being the presumptive presidential nominee for the Democratic party.

But thrilled and elated.

I mean, I love Governor Cooper, grew up with him being an attorney general.

Now he's our governor.

And it's an honor, I mean, it's a big deal to serve as vice president, and I think it's also a testament to how deep the bench is on the side for Democrats.

The fact that so many governors, so many US senators could serve.

But yes, I am partial, and hope that Governor Cooper ends up in that, in that spot.

I think he would be phenomenal at it.

We all know he cannot run for governor again, and he's had the ability to win in North Carolina twice with Donald Trump on the ballot.

So he would be a very, very competitive, and a very smart VP pick.

But it is a personal decision that will be left up to the vice president.

She has, her selection committee has started receiving those vetting materials, and she will have to make the decision that is best for her.

- The nominee makes the decision?

Not a committee, or not party bosses if you will.

- It is a committee, but definitely the nominee has to feel very comfortable with who that vice presidential nominee is gonna be.

- I get it.

Representative Paul Ray, Roy Cooper as a vice president.

He's outta your hair anyway come January.

But from a Republican side, you know, from the Republican side, it's a, it's our governor could possibly move up, and at least face off against your guy Trump.

- Right.

Well I think that a Cooper on the Kamal Harris ticket would be exciting for his supporters here in North Carolina, and perhaps bring some enthusiasm for Democrats at the polls.

But I think when you look at Roy Cooper in the field with other governors who are being considered for this position, you really have to look at the candidate, Roy Cooper, and then you have to look at North Carolina.

And I think the fact of the matter is, is that North Carolina has always been a state with a very strong legislature, and a weak governor.

So when you talk about the successes of North Carolina, when we're talking about being number one in the nation for business, top in the nation, three years in a row now, putting in place the largest personal income tax cut the state has seen ever, and reinvesting those revenues into critical infrastructure in the state up, you know, boosting up that quality of life, it's really the Republican led legislature that has been doing that work, in spite of the governor's vetoes.

And in fact, just this session, the Republicans have had to override a whopping 22 of the governor's vetoes in order to remain in that spot.

So I think it's an interesting idea, but I think when you look at the field of candidates for that position, you really need to take into account the state and the candidate.

- Mitch, the Trump-Vance campaign didn't spend one dime for a Republican to go on TV and explain that they think the Republican legislature's responsible for Roy Cooper's success.

How does that play with democratic voters, and how does Roy Cooper counter that argument?

Which I mean, they have split the power in this government.

Well, I agree that the successes of North Carolina in recent years, have more to do with what the legislature has done than what Cooper has done.

But the fact of the matter is people look at the governor when they talk about how the state's been successful or not.

So regardless of what Roy Cooper has done or hasn't done, if people look at North Carolina and see success, they'll say, oh, Roy Cooper, he is the governor.

He must be the reason for the success.

To me, the interesting piece about this is having Roy Cooper on the ballot would help put North Carolina more into play than it probably is otherwise.

Donald Trump has won the state twice.

I think anyone who had to put money on it would say he would win it again.

But if Roy Cooper's on the ballot on the other side, maybe you keep that money back, or maybe some people will start placing the bets on Democrats to win those 16 electoral votes.

To me, it'll come down to, for Harris, if there's no problem with any of the personalities of all the people who are under consideration, they'll say, okay, what's more important for us?

Do we think we can get North Carolina's electoral votes?

Do we need to get Pennsylvania's electoral votes, which would weigh in the favor of Governor Shapiro or maybe Kentucky, or is there something else?

Arizona with Senator Mark Kelly out there, they'll probably make an electoral calculation.

- Can't fault them for that.

Rufus, Senator Kamala Harris or Vice President Harris is a California democrat, and Roy Cooper is for all branding one of those Eastern North Carolina rural Democrats.

How do they pair together on a ticket?

- A perfect pair, in my opinion.

You gotta remember this, she is looking at attorneys general.

Now I know a little bit about that, having been one for 10 years in North Carolina, and Roy Cooper has faced some hurdles.

I remember the Duke lacrosse case, he sat as the judge, jury and found the Duke lacrosse members not guilty of that heinous charge they were faced with.

He's been a good consumer protection person, and I think it makes sense geographically.

And when you look at it, there are 15 electoral votes there.

So in my opinion, while I know all these other people you're talking about, I've worked with them before, Shapiro and Beshear.

I served his father as Attorney General.

Roy Cooper makes more sense geographically, and there are the electoral votes there.

So let's don't be surprised if he's picked.

- Will not be.

- And we can't skip over that relationship.

They both served as attorneys general, as was mentioned at the same time.

So they have over a decade of a real friendship.

So there is something about that personal relationship combined with strategically it makes a lot of sense.

They invested in this state early on.

In the words of Jen O'Malley, one of the campaign managers she is bullish on North Carolina to use her own phrases.

So the campaign is very invested in our state.

- In the previous campaign, the Biden campaign loved North Carolina seems every week.

So you're staying busy and I wouldn't expect that to change.

Well for all the good vibes with the Democrats, 10,000 people came to Charlotte this week to attend to rally to support Republican nominee Donald Trump.

He was joined by state elected leaders as well as candidates who were outside the arena working the line, trying to get those Republican votes.

Now, the once upon a time Biden Trump race showed Donald Trump leading the state.

Here's the former president.

- Well, we officially defeated the worst president in the history of our country, crooked Joe Biden.

[crowd cheering] He quit because he was losing so badly in the polls.

He was down in every single poll and down by a lot.

So he quit.

But really what happened was the leaders of the Democrat Party in a very undemocratic move, the bosses, they said, either you get out or we're going to throw you out using the 25th Amendment.

That's what happened.

You know that.

Three and a half years, lying Kamala Harris has been the ultraliberal driving force behind every single Biden catastrophe.

She is a radical left lunatic who will destroy our country.

If she ever gets the chance to get into office, we're not gonna let that happen.

- Representative Paré, I will not ask you to critique the former President's words unless you do want to.

A lot of energy there as well.

So we've got dual parties with some pretty high enthusiasm.

Who's in the middle that could be possibly undecided after just two so distinctive brands?

- Right.

Well, I think at this rally you saw full capacity in the Coliseum.

10,000 people there in the Coliseum to hear Trump speak.

Thousands as reporters were waiting outside and couldn't get in.

But I think the content of this rally is what we need to think about.

And you heard a bit of it there in that clip from Trump.

I think that the 2024 general election, presidential election has begun.

I mean, this is the first time Trump has taken the stage and went after basically his presidential opponent who's going to be, for all intents and purposes, Kamala Harris.

But I think he also started digging in a little bit to her record.

And I think that that speaks to the vulnerability of Kamala Harris at the top of the ticket, particularly in states like North Carolina that tends to be maybe a Trump lean state.

But you know, I think that that he pointed out some weaknesses in her record, particularly the border.

And I think that that's going to be interesting to see how he capitalizes off of her lack of performance in that arena and how those, that lack of performance and abysmal record has impacted families, real people, real citizens here in North Carolina when it comes to all those drugs pouring over the border and the impact on the kids.

So there's some good issues that he can start talking about, and he did this week at that rally.

- Senator Murdock, I'll come back to you on that since we started with representative Pare.

Is it going to be possible to bring presidential issues down to a statewide level and to bring national issues around the kitchen table, the border crisis, if they wanna call it that is in Texas and down there fentanyl's a problem.

How do we keep it local, but yet think national?

- Yeah, and I think also to take a step back, I mean, what I really saw was a bully in chief.

I didn't see someone that laid out a vision for America, a vision for what they're gonna do.

We've seen two distinct visions of a future of America where everyone can succeed and be prosperous.

We've seen Vice President Harris lead her campaign with freedom, the freedom to raise your family as your see fit, the freedom to have control over your body, and to not be subjected to a national abortion ban.

And in regarding to, in regards to immigration, I want folks to remember there was a bipartisan piece of legislation that could have moved forward and Republicans pulled back as a result of getting feedback from Donald Trump to not move forward with that.

And it would have been a strong bipartisan piece of legislation.

Crosses at the border are actually at a low, they've decreased.

So a lot of good work is happening on that.

And you can't get around we have to fix our broken immigration system.

I haven't seen any policies being put forward.

I've just seen a lot of folks pointing fingers and attacking and not truly governing and putting forth a vision for America.

So when it comes to North Carolina, those are the kitchen table to issues.

Having freedom over your own body, having the ability to gain economic security, having the ability to have childcare in the midst of a childcare crisis.

I didn't hear any of that brought up at the rally in Charlotte at all.

- Mitch, we're not hearing that any of these presidential rallies, it's personality driven.

Social media is trying to make Vice President Harris into something they didn't say she was a month ago.

And then here's Donald Trump going public calling a democratic nominee Lying Kamala Harris.

Yeah, I mean, we get it.

How do we get to the issues?

Or do we?

- I'm not sure that we are gonna get to the issues, but that's gonna be the interesting thing to see is because the campaign up until now has been basically one side saying you don't want another four years of what we've seen from Joe Biden.

And he can't handle the job and the other side see saying, you don't wanna go back to Donald Trump and give him another four years.

Now there's this new monkey wrench we've got, okay, there's no Biden, now it's Kamala Harris.

Does Donald Trump kind of stick with what we saw in the Charlotte rally where he basically starts hammering her as Lying Kamala and focusing on her record?

Or does he pivot more toward the type of thing that helped him in his first run when he talked about how we're going to build the country and get back to, you know, his phrase was "Make America Great Again."

That became the whole movement.

Does he move in that positive direction or does he focus more on here's what's wrong with Kamala Harris and tick off the various things she's done?

To me, one of the most interesting things that has come out since she has become the presumptive nominee is that one thing Republicans have attacked her on was her failed record as Biden's Borders czar.

And you've seen a number of outlets saying, well, she was never, the borders czar, that was never a title that she had.

And then other people fact checking and showing all the times when she was reported as being the borders czar, that's been humorous.

- This campaigning seems so different than it was even in the nineties, and the naughts, where are we heading with this?

Because you've got 'em going at each other and you've got social media and the truth is sometimes optional on the campaign trail.

How do we handle this?

- Well, Kelly, I've I've been concerned for quite some time about the incivility that we have today, everywhere.

In fact, I'm gonna write another book about it.

We are so at one another that we've forgotten the basic tenets of life is to have generosity, be kind.

Now, I personally don't like the personality of of Donald Trump.

There are a couple things that he's done that I particularly like.

I like Kamala Harris's cool, calm way, but the truth of the matter is that North Carolina is up for grabs this time, because you gotta remember the last time that president, former President Trump ran here, he had the least amount of victory than any other state that was a close state.

So I think it's incumbent upon people to say, look, let's stop the tribalism.

Let's analyze both candidates.

Let's have civility in our everyday life, and the problem today is this incivility is seeped over into church life, into civic life, and all kinds of life.

And I wanna say to both of them, stop it.

It's just not nice to be so critical and so downright mean to one another.

- Do politicians of partisan difference, is it getting personal even in Raleigh with legislators, we have Democrats, Republicans come on and everyone gets along backstage.

We come on here, you do your positioning, you play your role as that party representative.

But is it seeping locally where people are just getting mad over policy but they're making it personal?

- Well, I think, you know, I represent sort of a swing area.

It does lean Republican, so I've seen very heated rhetoric from both sides since I've been engaged in politics at this level.

But I think we do hear it from both sides, to Rufus' comment.

So it's not just one side, you know, saying that about the other side.

You have to hold both sides accountable to that.

But I also think that most people, serious voters are dealing with serious problems right now that they want fixed.

They want accountability.

So, you know, we hear Trump saying these things.

We hear the Harris campaign saying what they have to say about Donald Trump.

I think we have reached a fever pitch, obviously, when you see a former president almost assassinated on stage in front of all his supporters.

I mean, can it get worse than that?

And I think what we need to do is we need to attack the issues.

And I think people want to hear that.

And you heard a little bit of that at the rally.

So I think it isn't out-on-line to point out an abysmal record in Kamala Harris these last four years.

And we're talking about the border, we're talking about inflation, we're talking about the withdrawal of Afghanistan that was chaotic and terrible and we lost valuable lives through that.

So I think there needs to be some accountability on the issues in both directions.

And I think that people are asking for that, wanna hear that and that's where this is gonna end up going.

- Rufus, I wasn't around for this one.

You were a very, very young pup back then, but we act like this is unprecedented times for America.

I want to ask you about 1968 with RFK, with Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Those were men that lost their lives in a presidential year and the president that backed off the ticket.

- I lived through those years.

- How does it compare?

- It was a tumultuous time, and we're not that far different today.

People seem to forget that we don't have a history of things.

We had the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King, assassination of President Kennedy, assassination of RFK, and the Vietnam War.

I watched people from the steps of the Capitol when I worked with Senator Ervin being clobbered in the head because they had these views about Vietnam that were so stringent, but not stringent, correct, in my opinion, 'cause Senator Ervin said, "It's a war we never should've gotten into."

And so there have been tumultuous times.

The only thing that I find different, Mitch, well [chuckles] not Mitch.

[group chuckles and chatters] Is that they don't seem to be able to walk away with your hand around somebody's back and say, "Well, we had a good debate, didn't we?

Now, let's smoke a cigar."

I'll give you a good example, Watergate.

Senator Ervin and the Senator Baker made an agreement in the beginning.

"We will disagree, but we will not do it in public."

And if you notice, there was never a vote taken in the Senate Watergate Committee where it wasn't unanimous and there were very, very anti-Ervin people back in this time that loved Richard Nixon.

That was a way to get along.

And it starts from the top, my friends, it starts from the top.

- Alright, well, let's switch gears to another topic.

Let's bring issues back home, WUNC Radio's Colin Campbell, our friend here at "State Lines," WRAL is on this story, as well, reporting that a nonprofit run by Lieutenant Governor Mark Robinson's wife has and is raising concerns with the North Carolina Department of Health and Human Services.

DHHS documents say its reviewers have reported many missing documents the nonprofit needs to show to operate a federally-funded child nutrition program.

The organization was called Balanced Nutrition.

It helped daycare centers in North Carolina receive and manage federal money for childcare center meals for the kids.

DHHS says payment claims were filed on behalf of a childcare center, but the center told them it never applied for, nor received money.

Under review, Balanced Nutrition closed in April, 2024 when regulators began the review process.

The state wants Balanced Nutrition to repay $24,000.

And for the record, Mark Robinson was not an employee officially of that organization.

His wife was, Mitch.

[Host sighing] It's August and we're talking about all of these politics.

How do we separate an honest-to-goodness state regulatory review and audit, that's newsworthy, from politics?

- Well, you can't separate it from politics.

And I think actually one of the interesting pieces of this is that Mark Robinson and the folks who are speaking on his behalf are making it all about politics.

It could just be DHHS going to a contractor or a vendor and saying, "Look, you have these problems," but the way that it's being played from the Robinson campaign is, "This is only happening because I'm running for governor and they're out to get me."

I think this takes on a larger life because if you have read Mark Robinson's book, he talks about the fact that he did work with his wife there and because of her successful business, he was able to leave his own job and make his first run for political office.

So this does have a piece in his story becoming a candidate and eventually becoming the lieutenant governor.

So it's not gonna go away, but I think he has been successful so far.

He certainly was in the Republican primary and probably could be in the general election as well, saying, "Look, this is an issue between my wife and some bureaucrats, and it doesn't really have anything to do with me and what I want to do as governor."

So far that has seemed to have worked.

This issue has not seemed to have made a dent in his support or have changed the minds of the people who don't like him either.

So it'll be interesting to see how this plays out.

In terms of the actual meat of this story, DHHS calling Balanced Nutrition to task, what I think would be interesting to see is how often does this happen with other groups like this?

Is this an outlier?

Was Balanced Nutrition just one bad actor in a system that generally works well?

Or do a lot of these groups have this same situation that DHHS gives them a bunch of rules they have to follow and they don't really follow them that well?

- Rufus what happens when they turn the dogs loose on you and you're a high profile person?

- Well, the high profile person has to do something quickly because the opinions get formed.

But I wanna point out that when I was Attorney General, I would have numerous investigations going at one time.

I'm sure this is not the only one in the, Health and Human Services probably has hundreds if you know the truth about it.

And if you've been in government, you know that you're gonna goof up sometimes or there'll be allegations that you've goofed up.

And so I don't think this is anything partisan because they're a little bit too smart for that over at Health and Human Services, but they're the keepers of the gate there.

And if Mark Robinson can keep that separate, good for him.

But it's very legitimate question about taxpayers money and it's not unusual.

So I don't think you need to categorize this one as political at all.

- Senator Murdock, as a public person, all the rules that you two operate under, how easy is it to stay within the bounds?

Because there's been democrats that have been investigated for how they use the car in North Carolina and the Republican treasure, same kind of thing.

Some people think it's serious, some people roll their eyes.

How do we make sense of this?

- Yeah, I mean, myself and Rep Pare, we have been in numerous legislative meetings where we have oversight.

I previously served on the Joint Legislative Oversight Committee for Health and Human Services.

And this is common where you look into agencies, you look into how that money's being spent.

These are taxpayer dollars, it is very concerning.

But this is a faucet that has been leaking for a very long time.

We've been hearing a lot of whispers and concerns around how this was being managed.

And my mom was actually a daycare nursing supervisor.

And so even at the county level, she would provide oversight with these local daycares because there are a lot of federal and state programs.

And it is very common for you to go in there, see how things are going, what's working well, and what isn't working well.

And it's something that's gonna have to be addressed.

It is very, very concerning.

You are running to be governor of this state.

So the Health and Human Services department has every right to conduct this investigation as they should.

It's what we do as legislators all the time.

- Representative, it is over $24,000.

The family involved is part of a $50 million gubernatorial campaign.

So free publicity for the Stein campaign.

It's a newsworthy topic.

How do we balance it out?

- So I think three things here.

I think when you're in a position of you're a public elected official, even if you're a leader in a community organization that handles public money of any sort, you have to understand that you're gonna be under scrutiny.

Even as a business owner myself, when my husband and I just developed, started our business, we had a car that we had wrapped in the business name.

And I said, Wayne, whenever you drive that car, you have to make sure you do a complete stop at every stop sign because people will know who you are and you're gonna be under scrutiny just because you're leaders in the community.

So it's not just at that level.

I think it's all the way down for anybody who's in sort of a spotlight situation.

But I was reading this story and I couldn't help but just think, how many times has any government agency doled out tens of thousands of dollars incorrectly to an organization?

I mean, we need to talk about that too.

And I think your point about oversight, I mean, that's a legitimate function of the legislature.

But to me, we need to get to the bottom of where is that process breaking down?

But I think what we'll see here is we'll see this play out.

They either owe the money or they don't.

And I think Robinson will end up paying the money that they owe.

- All right, we've taken all the time of this show.

Rufus, Natalie, Erin, Mitch, thank you so much for being on this show.

I've got less than 10 seconds to tell you to email us, statelines@pbsnc.org.

I'll see you next time.

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