>> O'Connell: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," I'M SUE O'CONNELL, IN FOR JIM BRAUDE.

AS THE DELTA VARIANT RAGES, THE C.D.C.

IS REINSTATING SOME MASK GUIDELINES FOR THE FULLY VACCINATED.

ARE MASK MANDATES NEXT?

AND WHAT ABOUT VACCINE MANDATES, TOO?

DR. SABRINA ASSOMOU, AN INFECTIOUS DISEASE PHYSICIAN AT BOSTON MEDICAL CENTER, AND DR. NANCY KREIGER, A PROFESSOR OF SOCIAL EPIDEMIOLOGY AT HARVARD, BOTH JOIN ME.

THEN, LATER, B.U.

JOURNALISM PROFESSOR SHIRA SPRINGER ON SIMONE BILES STEPPING BACK FROM THE OLYMPICS AND THE MENTAL HEALTH PRESSURES WE PUT ON YOUNG FEMALE ATHLETES.

YIN MAY, THE CDC PUT OUT NEW GUIDANCE TELLING THE FULLY VACCINATED THAT THEY NO LONGER NEEDED TO WEAR MASKS OUTDOORS OR INDOORS.

IN ALL BUT THE MOST CROWDED SETTINGS.

THE DECISION CAME AS THE MORE CONTAGIOUS AND DELTA VARIANT WAS SPREADING IN THE U.S., LEFT MANY CONFUSED.

INCLUDING THOSE WHO RIGHTLY POINTED OUT STOPPING THOSE WHO AREN'T VACCINATED IN TAKING OFF MASKS IN PUBLIC TOO, TWO MONTHS LATER, DELTA IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE VAST MAJORITY OF ALL COVID CASES IN THE U.S.

INCLUDING A GROWING NUMBER AMONG THE FULLY VACCINATED.

AND AFTER SAYING JUST LAST WEEK THAT THEY HAD NO PLANS TO CHANGE THEIR MINDS, UNLESS THERE WAS A MAJOR CHANGE IN THE SCIENCE, THE CDC IS DOING JUST THAT.

THE AGENCY UPDATED ITS GUIDELINES TODAY TO RECOMMEND EVERYONE VACCINATED OR NOT WEAR MASKS INDOORS IN PLACES WHERE THE VIRUS IS SPREADING WIDELY.

AND SOME ARE TAKING MORE DECISIVE ACTION THAN OTHERS.

>> THESE NUMBERS ARE EXTRAORDINARY.

WE'RE SEEING NEARLY 1,000 NEW CASES IN ORANGE COUNTY DAILY.

THOSE ARE THE NUMBERS WE SAW AT THE HIGHEST PEAK LAST YEAR.

>> GIVEN OUR CURRENT SITUATION, BASED ON THE ADVICE OF I'M ORDERED TO RESTATE THE MASK MANDATE EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY.

>>> SOME AREAS AND ORGANIZATIONS ARE CONSIDERING VACCINE MANDATES INCLUDING NEW YORK CITY.

WHICH IS EXPECTED TO RIGHT NOW ALL CITY WORKERS GET THE SHOT AND YESTERDAY, THE DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS OFFICIALLY BECAME THE FIRST FEDERAL AGENCY TO DO THE SAME.

ALL OF THAT PALES IN COMPARISON TO THE MANDATES FRANCE'S LEGISLATURE PASSED WHICH REQUIRES PROOF OF VACCINATION FOR ALL RESTAURANTS AND DOMESTIC TRAVEL.

DESPITE RESISTANCE, THE MOVE HAS ALREADY HAD SOME EARLY SUCCESS AFTER FRANCE'S PRESIDENT PREVIEWED IT EARLIER THIS MONTH, MORE THAN A MILLION PEOPLE MADE VACCINE APPOINTMENTS IN LESS THAN A DAY.

AND IT BEGS THE QUESTION, SHOULD WE BE TAKING A PAGE OUT OF THEIR PANDEMIC PLAYBOOK?

I'M JOINED NOW BY DR. SABRINA ASSOUMOU INFECTION DISEASE PHYSICIAN AND ASSISTANT PROFESSOR OF MEDICINE AT BU AND DR. NANCY KREIGER A PROFESSOR AT SOCIAL EPIDEMIOLOGY OF HARVARD SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH, WELCOME (/(j DR. SABRINA, STARTING WITH YOU, I WANT TO END THE INTERVIEW AT THE BEGINNING AND ASKING YOU FIRST WHAT I WOULD ASKING YOU AT THE END, WHICH IS, HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS WITH OUR HIGH VACCINATION RATES, SHOULD ALL OF US BE WEARING MASKS IN THE WAY THAT WE WERE BEFORE?

>> I THINK THAT WHAT THE CDC IS TRYING TO DO IS THAT THE PROTOCOL THAT YOU RECOMMEND FOR PLACE THAT HAS HIGH VACCINATION RATES AND LOW -- HIGH VACCINATION PROPORTION AND LOW CASE RATE WOULD BE DIFFERENT THAN WHAT YOU WOULD RECOMMEND FOR A PLACE THAT HAD NO VACCINATION RATE AND HIGH CASE RATE.

IN TERMS OF WHAT WE NEED TO DO IN MASSACHUSETTS, DR. IS CLEAR IN HER CONFERENCE YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THE COUNTY LEVEL, WHAT IS YOUR RATES OF INFECTION IF GREATER THAN 50 CASES PER 100,000 IMPOSE THE MANDATES >> DR., I GET CONCERNED ABOUT THIS I FEEL LIKE WE NEED TO OVERCORRECT SOMETIMES IN ORDER TO JUST TO GET PEOPLE TO DO THE BASIC STUFF.

SO GIVING PEOPLE A MIXED MESSAGE AND ASKING THEM TO GO SEEK ON THE INFORMATION IN ORDER TO MAKE A DECISION THAT'S BEST FOR THEM AND THEIR FAMILY, SEEMS LIKE A HEAVY LIFT.

AM I WRONG ON THAT?

>> >> WHAT'S IMPORTANT IS WE LIVE IN A SO IT'S.

THAT MEANS THERE ARE RULES THAT HAPPEN TO HELP KEEP PEOPLE SAFE AND TO UNDERSTAND IT'S NOT MATTER OF PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

NOT EVERYONE HAS ACCESS TO CONDITION THAT IS ENABLE THEM TO GET VACCINATED.

ALSO TO HAVE THE QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT KINDS OF WORK SITUATIONS THEY'RE IN TO ASSUME THIS IS ALL VOLUNTARY RECREATIONAL BEHAVIOR AND MASK WEARING ISN'T CORRECT.

THE QUESTION IS WHAT'S NEEDED FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE AT WORK IN INDOOR SETTINGS TO BE, WHICH IS A LOT OF WHERE PUBLIC INTERACTION TAKES PLACE, PEOPLE INDOORS IN SETTINGS WHERE THEY'RE THERE FOR QUITE A WHILE NEED TO BE ABLE TO HAVE SOMETHING AT THEIR BACKS TO HELP SUPPORT WEARING A MASK WHEN WE HAVE A MUCH MORE TRANSMISSIBLE VIRUS.

DELTA IS WAY MORE TRANSMISSIBLE.

I THINK THE OTHER THING THAT'S REALLY CRITICAL TO EMPHASIZE IS NOT SIMPLY THE CASE NUMBERS WITH REGARD TO WHY GET VACCINATED BUT THAT IF YOU ARE VACCINATED YOU'RE VERY UNLIKELY TO GET SO SICK AS TO DIE.

THAT'S THE CRUCIAL DISTINCTION, IT'S NOT THAT YOU WON'T GET SICK.

AND I THINK THE QUESTION OF CLEAR MESSAGES HAS TO DO WITH PERFECT VACANCY IS TWO FOLD TO PREVENT YOU FROM THE RISK OF GETTING SO SICK THAT YOU DIE, AND ALSO IT'S TO PREVENT THAT RISK FOR OTHER PEOPLE.

PEOPLE THAT YOU LOVE IN YOUR FAMILY, AROUND THE HEALTHCARE WORKERS AND MANY OTHERS IT ALSO HAS TO BE FRAMED CLEAR MESSAGING TO KEEP PEOPLE SAFE FROM THE MANY DIFFERENT PUBLIC CONTEXT WHEN WE DON'T KNOW WHO THE OTHER PEOPLE ARE.

THAT'S DIFFERENT THAN A PRIVATE EVENT IN YOUR HOME, THAT'S DIFFERENT THAN WALKING IN A PARK IN OUTDOOR AIR NOT CROWDED IT'S ABOUT REALLY THINKING THIS IS VIRUS THAT IS RESPIRATORY IT GOES FROM THE AIR, FROM ONE PERSON TO ANOTHER, WHAT'S THE CONTEXT IN WHICH PEOPLE ARE CONNECTING?

HOW CLOSELY?

HOW MUCH ARE THEY GATHERED?

HOW GOOD IS THE AIR FLOW?

THESE ARE THE QUESTIONS THAT MATTER.

AND THEY MATTER AND THEY'RE SOCIALLY STRUCTURED WORKPLACES, GIVEN PAID TIME OFF OR NOT TO GET VACCINATED?

WHO HAVE BEEN GIVEN PAID TIME OFF OR NOT WHEN THEY HAVE SICK LEAVE?

THESE ARE THE THINGS THAT REALLY NEED TO BE LOOKED AT SOCIAL RESPONSE AS WELL, NOT JUST SIMPLY VACCINE OR MASK, WHO AGAIN IS ENABLING THE POLICIES AND RESOURCES TO MAKE SURE PEOPLE CAN BE VACCINATED AND TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY CAN WEAR A MASK KNOWING THAT THEY'RE EMPLOYER HAS THE VACS.

>> DR.

I WANT TO TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT -- WHAT WOULD IT TAKE YOU'RE VACCINATED, YOU'VE BEEN FULLY VACCINATED, YOU'RE WITH YOUR FAMILY AND YOUR BUBBLE YOUR TRAVELING TO A WEDDING YOU'RE IN THE CAR WITH FOLKS.

I KEEP HEARING MIXED MESSAGES ABOUT WHAT IT WOULD TAKE TO GET INFECTED BY THE DELTA VARIANT.

CAN YOU MAP OUT A SCENARIO FOR ME ABOUT HOW MUCH CLOSE CONTACT WOULD I HAVE TO HAVE WITH SOMEBODY INFECTED IN ORDER TO GET INFECTED.

>> THIS IS WE'RE STILL TRYING TO DETERMINE IN TERMS OF LIKE WHAT THE DYNAMICS OF THIS VIRUS ARE.

BUT WHAT IMPORTANT DATA THIS IS WHAT MOTIVATED THE CDC'S CHANGE IN GUIDANCE IS THAT WHEN YOU COMPARED THE VIRAL TO HOW MUCH VIRUS DETECTED IN A PERSON VACCINATED AND SOMEONE WHO'S NOT VACCINATED, VERY SIMILAR LEVEL OF VIRUS.

AND SO THIS IS WHY THE CDC WAS MOTIVATED TO SAY THAT YOU KNOW, YOUR VACCINATION STATUS SHOULDN'T DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT YOU SHOULD GET MASKED INDOORS AND YOU COULD ALSO TRANSMIT AS WELL.

.

>> O'Connell: IN TERMS OF THINKING ABOUT SCENARIOS I ALWAYS THINK YOU NEED TO LET, IT'S BEEN A LONG YEAR AND A HALF.

AND WE ALL NEED TO THINK ABOUT WHAT ARE THE ALTERNATIVES AND WHAT I ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO DO IS IF YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE A GATHERING, HAVE IT OUTSIDE, OUTDOORS IS SAFE.

YOU DON'T NEED TO BE MASKED OUTSIDE, BE OUTDOORS WITH ACTIVITIES WITH FAMILY AND FRIENDS.

IN TERMS OF BEING INDOORS, THAT'S WHEN YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT WHAT IS YOUR PERSONAL HISTORY?

DO YOU HAVE UNDERLYING CONDITION OR SEVERE COVID?

DO YOU HAVE CHILDREN WHO ARE UNVACCINATED?

YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT YOUR ENVIRONMENT BECAUSE IN THOSE CASES ESPECIALLY WHAT THE CDC IS SAYING WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT THE DELTA VARIANT IS THAT WHEN YOU'RE INDOORS, ESPECIALLY UNTIL PLACE WHERE YOU DON'T KNOW PEOPLE'S VACCINATION STATUS, YOU SHOULD WEAR A MASK.

>> DOCTOR SABRINA, THE OTHER THING ROCHELLE WALENSKY SAID THE DIRECTOR OF CDC HAD CONCERNS ABOUT THE SPREAD OF THE VARIANT THAT MIGHT MAKE WORSE VARIANTS DOWN THE LINE FOR US THAT MAY BE RESISTANT TO VACCINES, AND THAT WHEN WE'RE THINKING ABOUT OUR INTERACTIONS IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT WELL, WE MIGHT GET SICK AND BE MILDLY SICK OR WE MIGHT GET INFECTED AND BE ASYMPTOMATIC WE'RE SAFE IF WE'RE VACCINATED FOR THE MOST PART FOR THE VAST MAJORITY OF IT FROM BEING VERY ILL IN THE HOSPITAL.

IT DOES REQUIRE US TO HAVE CRITICAL THINKING ABOUT WHAT THIS VIRUS WILL DO AND WHAT IT'S GOAL TO DO IS AND WHAT WE'RE FIGHTING.

RIGHT >> THIS IS AN ESSENTIAL POTENT, THIS IS WHY WHEN I GIVE THESE TALKS WE DON'T LIVE IN A BUBBLE, NONE OF US ARE SAFE UNTIL ALL OF US, IF IT'S REPLY INDICATING ANYWHERE, IF WE DON'T WE DON'T HAVE WORK HARD TO MAKE SURE EVERYONE GETS VACCINATED SO WE DON'T HAVE NEW VARIANTS THAT WILL COME ALONG, AND EVADE IMMUNITY WE'LL IN TROUBLE.

THAT'S WHY IT IS NOT ONLY IMPORTANT FOR US TO GET VACCINATED IN THE U.S.

BUT FOR US TO MAKE SURE THAT WE GET EVERYONE VACCINATED SO THAT YOU KNOW, AT THIS POINT, WITH DELTA VARIANT, THIS IS THE MESSAGE I ALSO TRY TO SORT OF EXPRESS CLEARLY, IS THAT WE GOT LUCKY, OUR VACCINES ALL THE VACCINES CURRENTLY IN THE U.S. MODERNA, PFIZER, J&J, THEY ALL WORK WITH THE DELTA VARIANT.

THAT'S THE MESSAGE WE NEED TO GET OUT.

WE GOT LUCKY.

WE MAY NOT GET SO LUCKY WITH THE NEXT ONE, THAT IS WHY IT'S SO CRITICAL TO GET AS MANY PEOPLE VACCINATED IN BOSTON AND MASSACHUSETTS AND THE U.S. AND AROUND THE WORLD.

>> DR. NANCY KREIGER, I WAS LOOKING AT THE VACCINATION RATES TODAY.

AND ENGAGING WITH SOME FOLKS ON SOCIAL MEDIA NATIONALLY THE VACCINATION RATES NATIONALLY.

AND YOU KNOW, IT'S LOOKING LIKE YOU KNOW, 50% OF AMERICANS HAVE HAD BOTH VACCINES.

60% HAVE HAD YOU KNOW ONE.

AND THEN THE CONVERSATION COMES TO YOUR POINT EARLIER, THERE'S PROBABLY 20% OF AMERICANS WHO WANTS TO BE VACCINATED OR ARE ABOUT TO BE VACCINATED BUT ARE HAVING DIFFICULTIES GETTING THE VACCINE FOR THE ISSUES BROUGHT UP.

THEN THERE'S THIS 20% THAT JUST MAY NEVER DECIDE THAT THEY WILL AGREE TO GET VACCINATED.

SHOULD WE BE PIVOTING OR ATTENTION OR PUTTING OUR ATTENTION ON DELIVERING THE VACCINE TO PEOPLE WHO WANT BUT CONTINUE GET IT >> I THINK IT'S CRITICAL IN EVERY SINGLE STATE AND WITHIN STATES STATES PLAY A HUGE ROLE IN SETTING TERMS HERE TO GET PEOPLE WHO NEED THE VACCINE AND WANTS THE VACCINE BUT UNABLE TO GET IT BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE THE WORK CONDITIONS THAT MAKE IT EASY, TIME OFF WORK, FOR THEM TO BE ABLE TO SAY HAVE PHYSICAL ACCESS FOR GETTING THE VACCINE, LOCAL AREAS, THAT'S ABSOLUTELY CRUCIAL.

PEOPLE WHO ARE RESISTANT TO GETTING VACCINATED, THERE ARE DIFFERENT REASON, SOME PEOPLE WHO HAVE DEEP PERSONAL CONVICTIONS, THERE'S PEOPLE FEARED FOSTERED PEOPLE SPREADING MISINFORMATION, WHETHER OR NOT THOSE PEOPLE CAN BE REACH THROUGH DIFFERENT KINDS OF MESSAGING IF IT'S ABOUT GETTING ACROSS CLEARLY THERE'S MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS OF PEOPLE VACCINATED WITH VERY FEW ADVERSE OUTCOMES IN THIS COUNTRY, THAT MESSAGE HAS TO BE ABLE TO BE CONVEYED CLEARLY IF PEOPLE ARE WORRIED ABOUT QUESTIONS ABOUT CONTROL, PEOPLE CAN HAVE CONTROL OF WHAT GOES IN THEIR BODIES IN TERMS OF VACCINES BUT THERE ARE MANY THINGS THAT ARE VERY DAMAGING TO PEOPLE'S HEALTH THEY DON'T HAVE DIRECT CONTROL.

WHETHER CALL IT AIR POLLUTION, CALL THAT OTHER KINDS OF ADDITIVES IN MANY THINGS THAT PEOPLE INGEST ANYWAY BUT THE VACCINE BECOMES FOCUS NOT JUST ABOUT THE VACCINE, IT'S ABOUT DO YOU HAVE CONTROL OF WHAT DOES OR DOESN'T GO IN YOUR BODY AND I THINK FIGURING OUT WAYS TO INVADE THOSE KINDS OF CONVERSATIONS IS PARENT.

BUT FIRST AND FOREMOST, I DO THINK MAKING SURE THAT PEOPLE THAT WANT THE VACCINE AND ARE UNABLE TO GET IT THEY GET THAT VACCINE WHILE OTHER CONVERSATIONS ARE GOING ON TO ADDRESS THE MISCONCEPTIONS AND DELIBERATELY WISE ABOUT THE VACCINE IS REALLY IMPORTANT.

>> DOCTOR, WE WRAP UP HERE.

I WANT TO GIVE YOU THE OPPORTUNITY TO REMIND PEOPLE IF THEY HAVE REGULAR CHECKUPS THEY SHOULD BE HAVING AND THEIR KIDS SHOULD BE GOING BACK TO SCHOOL, IT'S TIME TO TRY AND GET THOSE APPOINTMENTS AND GET BACK ON THE BEAM OF SEEING YOUR DOCTOR ON A REGULAR BASIS.

RIGHT >> ABSOLUTELY.

YOU KNOW, I WAS JUST IN CLINIC RECENTLY AND YOU WOULDN'T BELIEVE, A LOT OF PEOPLE YOU KNOW FELT EITHER THAT IT WASN'T SAFE TO COME BACK TO CLINIC OR HOSPITAL FOR REGULAR CHECKUPS IT'S SO CRITICAL THAT WE MAKE SURE THAT WE ENCOURAGE NOT ONLY VACCINATIONS BUT ALL THE CANCER SCREENINGS.

I CAN TELL YOU THAT I NEVER BEEN ON SERVICE AND SEEN SO MANY STATES, JUST IN A TWO-WEEK PERIOD BECAUSE THERE WAS A LOT OF CARE, ABSOLUTELY MAKE SURE YOU CONNECT WITH YOUR DOCTOR FOR HEALTHCARE.

>> AND MENTAL HEALTH WE'LL TALK ABOUT SIMONE BILES IN A MOMENT, BUT FOLKS, I IMAGINE THEY'RE WEARY THEY NEED TO REACH OUT FOR HELP >> ABSOLUTELY.

>> THANK YOU BOTH DR. SABRINA ASSOUMOU AND NANCY KREIGER THANK YOU FOR JOINING ME, I APPRECIATE YOUR INPUT AND EXPERTISE.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> NEXT UP WITH FOUR OLYMPICS GOLD MEDALS AND DOZENS MORE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS, SIMONE BILES IS THE MOST DECORATED GYMNAST IN THE WORLD BUT ALL THAT HARDWARE CAN PACK ON THE PRESSURE, AHEAD OF THE TEAM FINAL AT THE TOKYO GAME LAST NIGHT.

BECAME TOO MUCH, BILES DECIDED TO PULL OUT AND FOREGO THE OPPORTUNITY TO TOP THE PODIUM SHE'S PHYSICALLY IN GOOD SHAPE BUT SHE TOLD REPORTERS SHE NEEDED TO STEP ASIDE FOR THE SAKE OF HER MENTAL HEALTH.

WE ALSO HAVE TO FOCUS ON OURSELVES BECAUSE AT THE END OF THE DAY WE'RE HUMAN TOO.

SO WE HAVE PROTECT MINDS AND BODY RATHER THAN JUST GO OUT THERE AND DO WHAT THE WORLD WANTS US TO.

WELL, HER TEAM ULTIMATELY WON SILVER BEHIND RUSSIA AND BILES COACH SAID SHE'S TAKING IT ONE DAY AT A TIME WHEN IT COMES TO THE UPCOMING INDIVIDUAL GYMNASTICS COMPETITIONS BUT HER DECISION TO PRIORITIZE METH WELL-BEING IS FUELING CONVERSATIONS ABOUT THE PRESSURES ON YOUNG FEMALE ATHLETES IN PARTICULAR, IF ONE FELLOW OLYMPIAN AND TENNIS STAR NAOMI SO KA WHEN SHE WITHDREW OVER MANDATORY PRESS CONFERENCES WHICH SHE DOES GAVE HER QUOTE, HUGE WAVES OF ANXIETY, END QUOTE, I'M JOINED BY BU JOURNALISM LECTURE WHO TEACH AS COURSE ON SPORTS, GENDER AND JUSTICE, GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> GOOD TO SEE YOU >> WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION WHEN YOU HEARD THAT SIMONE BILES WAS PULLING OUT OF THE COMPETITION >> I WAS ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE WHO WOKE UP EARLY THIS MORNING TO TUNE IN TO THE TEAM COMPETITION AND I WAS INCREDIBLY SURPRISED.

THERE WAS THAT DIFFICULTY VAULT THAT SHE HAD, VERY UNUSUAL FOR HER NOT TO HAVE A PERFECT VAULT.

AND YOU BEGAN TO START THINKING, THINGS MIGHT BE A LITTLE BIT OFF SOMETHING IS NOT QUITE RIGHT.

SO FIRST, TO PRIDE AT HER WITHDRAWING THAT THIS VAULT SORT OF LED TO HERE SAYING I'M NOT READY TO COMPETE THEN I THINK THERE WAS A SECOND ROUND OF SURPRISE SHE CAME OUT AND IT WASN'T A PHYSICAL AILMENT BUT BECAUSE OF HER MENTAL HEALTH.

AND JUST HOW MUCH BRAVERY THAT TOOK TO COME OUT AND SAY, I WAS NOT IN THE RIGHT HEAD SPACE AND YOU SIMPLY CANNOT COMPETE WHEN YOU'RE NOT MENTALLY WHERE YOU NEED TO BE.

AND THE RECOGNITION THAT THE OLYMPICS ARE BOTH ABOUT PHYSICAL BUT ALSO ABOUT MENTALLY BEING NOT BEING TOUGH ENOUGH BUT BEING IN THE RIGHT SPACE TO DO WHAT YOU NEED TO DO.

SHE SAID IT HERSELF, IF YOU'RE NOT, YOU RISK PHYSICAL INJURY AND AS WE'VE SEEN IN THE PAST WITH GYMNASTICS, YOU KNOW, THAT INJURY CAN BE QUITE SEVERE WHEN YOU'RE DOING TRICK AS DIFFICULT AND RISKY AS SIMONE BILES IS DOING.

>> THE VAULTS SHE HAD PLANNED WERE SO DANGEROUS IN THE BEST OF CIRCUMSTANCES.

AND WITHOUT BEING ABLE TO HAVE A CONCENTRATION YOU NEED TO DO I TECH COULD HAVE ENDED IN A CATASTROPHE.

I KNOW THERE'S PUSH-BACK ALL OVER PLACE, ON SOCIAL MEDIA PEOPLE SAYING YOU WERE PART OF A TEAM YOU SHOULD HAVE DONE SOMETHING FOR YOUR TEAM.

DO YOU THINK THAT HER DOING SOMETHING FOR HER TEAM WAS BY NOT COMPETING SO SHE WOULDN'T HURT THEIR CHANCES TO MEDAL?

>> YES.

ABSOLUTELY.

I THINK OBVIOUSLY THERE ARE TWO WAYS OF LOOKING AT THIS, WHICH IS THEY'RE GOING TO BE THOSE NAY SAYERS WHO SAID SHE QUIT HER TEAM, SHE'S THE BEST GYMNAST IN THE WORLD, THEY NEED HER TO SCORE WELL, HER PERSPECTIVE I THINK WE'LL TAKE HER PERSPECTIVE OVER NAY SAYERS AND HATERS IS THAT I WAS DOING MY TEAM MORE HARM THAN GO BY GOING OUT THERE.

THAT SHE WOULD HAVE BECOME A DISTRACTION, THAT HER MENTAL STATE WAS SIMPLY NOT GOING TO BE A VALUE ADDED FOR HER TEAM ON THE DAY.

AND IT HAPPENED.

AND SHE TALKS ABOUT IT IN HER PRESS CONFERENCE, HOW SHE WAS JUST OUT OF SORTS.

SHAKY COULDN'T TAKE THE USUAL PRECOMPETITION NAP SHE USUALLY DOES, JUST WAS SUFFERING FROM AN INCREDIBLE AMOUNT OF ANXIETY AND SHE SAID PRIOR TO TODAY, THAT THE WEIGHT OF THE WORLD WAS ON HER SHOULDERS.

AND THE PRESSURE REALLY GOT TO HER AND I THINK IF YOU'RE IN THAT HEAD SPACE, THEN YOU'RE NOT DOING YOUR TEAM ANY GOOD.

LET'S BE FAIR TOO, SHE GAVE HER TEAM A PEP TALK AFTER SHE DECIDED TO WITHDRAWAL AND SHE SAID, LISTEN, YOU CAN DO THIS.

AND THERE'S SOMETHING TO BE SAID FOR THAT AND THAT TYPE OF LEADERSHIP AS WELL.

>> SHE'S ALWAYS BEEN DIRECT AND OPEN AND HONEST ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON.

I WANT TO TAKE A LOOK A COLLEGE WHEN SHE WAS ON DANCING WITH THE STARS AND REACTED TO ONE OF THE JUDGE'S COMMENTS.

>> I WAS WAITING FOR YOU TO SMILE AT SOME COMPLIMENTS.

YOU DIDN'T.

>> GOLD MEDALS.

>> SMILING DOESN'T WIN YOU GOLD MEDALS I THINK SHE PRETTY MUCH SAID IT THERE.

ARE WE SEEING THIS PROGRESS HERE?

I WAS STRUCK YOU KNOW, MICHAEL PHELPS HAD THIS HBO SPECIAL TALKING ABOUT OLYMPIANS ABOUT THE CHALLENGES OF MENTAL HEALTH STRUGGLES ESPECIALLY WHEN THE GAMES ARE OVER OR WHEN THEIR ATHLETIC CAREER IS OVER AND SOME GONE TO COLLEGE AND SOME DON'T HAVE ANYTHING TO LOOK FORWARD TO COMING FROM THE HIGH TO NOTHING THAT'S WORKING FOR THEM.

ARE WE BEGINS AS A SOCIETY TO UNDERSTAND THAT IT'S NOT JUST ALL BEING ON THE CEREAL BOXES AND WINNING MEDALS AND GETTING THE GREAT PROMOS, BUT THEN THERE ARE REAL PEOPLE WITH SAME REAL STRUGGLES THAT WE HAVE >> I THINK ABSOLUTELY, AND PART OF THAT IS SOCIAL MEDIA.

SIMONE BILES WENT TO SOCIAL MEDIA, INSTAGRAM TO POST ABOUT HER MENTAL HEALTH, NAOMI OSAKA DONE THE SAME.

PART OF THAT IS WE NOW HAVE A MORE DIRECT CONNECTION TO PROFESSIONAL ATHLETES, THEY'RE ABLE TO BE MORE OPEN THROUGH SOCIAL MEDIA CHANNELS SO THAT'S ONE ASPECT OF IT.

I ALSO THINK THAT ATHLETES ARE BECOMING MORE COMFORTABLE WITH BEING VULNERABLE AND OPEN.

AND AGAIN, THAT MAY BE IN PART DUE TO SOCIAL MEDIA, YOU ALSO HAVE THE RISE IN ALL OF THESE DOCU SERIES FROM ABOUT SUPER STARS SIMONE BILES HAD HER OWN SPECIAL WHERE YOU SORT OF WENT BEHIND THE SCENES AND GOT BEHIND SCENES ACCESS TO HER LIFE AND HER TRAINING ROUTINE.

SO I THINK THAT'S ANOTHER PART OF IT.

THAT THERE IS GREATER OPENNESS, GREATER COMFORT ON THE PART OF ATHLETES ABOUT BEING VULNERABLE AND COMING ACROSS AS A THREE DIMENSION AL HUMAN BEING WHICH WASN'T THE CASE, FIVE, TEN YEARS WHERE THERE WAS AN EXPECTATION PERFECTION ON AND OFF MAP, SO TO SPEAK.

>> DO YOU THINK THERE'S ALSO UNDERSTANDING WE DON'T OWN THEIR BODIES, THEIR BODIES ARE THEIR BODIES AND WHEN THEY'RE DONE PLAYING REGARDLESS OF WHAT LEVEL THEY'RE AT, WHATEVER INJURIES THEY INCUR OR DAMAGE THEY DO IS GOING TO BE WITH THEM THE REST OF THEIR LIVES, YOU NEED TO LOOK AT THE NFL PLAYERS WHO DIED HOMELESS OR HAD TERRIBLE ADDICTIONS DUE TO THEIR CUSHION CONCUSSIONS THAT WEREN'T TREATED.

I THINK THINKING OF KERRY SHRUGS AND HER ANKLE SPRAIN IN 1996 AT THE OLYMPICS SHE COMPETED IN PAIN AND I REMEMBER WATCHING THINKING DON'T DO THAT.

LIKE, YOU'RE GOING TO WANT TO WALK ON THAT ANKLE WHEN YOU'RE 50, AND YOU KNOW, NONE OF THIS FAME WILL GET YOU FROM THE CAR TO THE HOUSE.

ARE THEY BEGINNING TO UNDERSTAND THAT WE DON'T OWN THEM?

>> I THINK THAT'S ONE THING THEY'RE BEGINNING TO UNDERSTAND, I ALSO THINK THEY'RE BEGINNING TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE SPONSORS AND MEDIAN HAVE THEIR BEST INTEREST IN MIND NECESSARILY, THEIR INTERESTED IN THE STORY.

THEY'RE INTERESTED IN THE PUBLICITY THEY CAN GET FROM BEING ASSOCIATED WITH THOSE GREAT ATHLETES, OFTENTIMES THAT IS MEANS LEADING OR FORCING THEM TO DO THINGS THEY MIGHT NOT ORDINARILY DO, PUTTING EXTRA PRESSURE ON THEM.

I THINK THEY'RE BEGINNING TO UNDERSTAND FOR SEEING MORE CLEARLY THAT SPONSORS MEDIA, OTHERS DON'T REALLY NECESSARILY CAR ABOUT THEIR LONG-TERM QUALITY OF LIFE, AND THEY CARE ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE MOMENT, AND QUITE FRANKLY HOW TO PROFIT >> WE'D BE REMISS IF WE DIDN'T NOTE THE ATTACKS SIMONE BILES TAKEN AS BEING A BLACK WOMAN SINCE EMERGED ON THE STAGE, I CAN'T IMAGINE NOT TAKING A TOLL.

ANOTHER THING CHANGING IS THE OUT FITS THAT WOMEN HAVE BEEN REQUIRED TO WEAR IN COMPETITION, WHICH HAVE I'VE NEVER UNDERSTOOD WHY THE LEE TARREDS WAS REQUIRED THAT PLACES WHERE MEN WEAR SHORTS OR WHY THE SKIRT WAS NEEDED, NORWEGIAN HAND BALL WOMEN'S TEAM, HAND BALL IS NOT ANNE OLYMPIC SPORT YET BUT THEY WERE COMPETING AND DECIDED TO NOT WEAR WHAT THEY WERE REQUIRED TO, THERE'S A PICTURE OF THEM WEARING THE SHORTS AND THEY WERE FINED.

TEAM WAS FINED $1.768, THE POP STAR PINK SAID SHE WOULD PAY THE FINES.

WHAT IS GOING ON WITH -- WHY ARE WOMEN FORCED TO WEAR THESE THINGS AND WHY HASN'T IT CHANGED ALREADY.

>> I'M GOING TO SAY COME ON, DO YOU REALLY HAVE TO ASK THAT QUESTION?

.

>> O'Connell: YES BECAUSE I'M GETTING PAID TO ASK THE QUESTION, YES, I KNOW IT'S ANSWER.

>> THAT'S WHAT I WANT TO SAY LIKE WE ALL KNOW THE ANSWER AND THAT'S MY POINT, YOU AND I BOTH KNOW WHY WOMEN ARE BEING ASKED TO WEAR BIKINI SHORTS AND BRA LIKE TOPS, THERE'S A REASON WHY.

AND OBJECTIVECATION THEY WANT TO CREATE A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF SEX APPEAL, THERE ARE SPORTS LEADERS COMMENTED ON RECORD THAT FEMALE ATHLETES SHOULD WEAR SEXIER OUT FITS TO GROW THE AUDIENCE FOR THEIR SPORT.

SO YOU AND I AND OTHERS BOTH KNOW EXACTLY WHY.

I THINK THE QUESTION IS WHY DOES THIS KEEP HAPPENING AND WHY HASN'T THIS CHANGED?

I WAS WRITING ABOUT THE ISSUES REGARDING WHAT WOMEN WEAR IN COMPETITION IN THE OLYMPICS A DECADE AGO.

AND YOU KNOW, THE SEEMS TO HAVE A SIP CAL NATURE TO I TECH ALWAYS COMES UP DURING THE SUMMER OLYMPICS, YET NOTHING CHANGES FROM SUMMER OLYMPICS TO SUMMER OLYMPICS, YOU CAN MAKE THE ARGUMENT THERE ARE SPORTS IN THE WINTER OLYMPICS FIGURE SKATING THAT HAVE THE SAME ISSUE.

SO THAT'S LIKE THIS FRUSTRATING PART OF IT WHY IT STILL AN ISSUE, IT WASN'T JUST THE NORWEGIAN BEACH HAND BALL TEAM BUT THE GERMAN GYMNAST SUCCESSFULLY PROTESTED, SO TO SPEAK, WITH THEIR CLOTHING AND WORE FULL LENGTH LEE TARREDS IN COMPETITION AS OPPOSED TO THE JUMPIER LEE TARREDS YOU COMMONLY SEE AND I THINK THERE'S A MOVEMENT AMONG FEMALE ATHLETES WHO COMPETE ON THEIR OWN TERMS.

AND I THINK THAT'S TRUE IN MANY WAYS OF WHAT YOU'RE SEEING FROM OSAKA AND SIMONE BILES.

ALSO TRUE OF TEAMS AND FEMALE ATHLETES SAYING WE'RE NOT GOING TO DRESS THIS WAY.

YOU CAN'T TELL US WHAT IS MOST COMFORTABLE.

WHAT MAKES US FEEL MOST CONFIDENT WHEN WE COMPETE.

>> DO YOU SEE A CONNECTION BETWEEN THE MENTAL HEALTH CHALLENGES THAT FEMALE ATHLETES FACE AND THE OBJECTIVATION OF THEM AND THE SEXUALIZATION OF THEM IN AN ATHLETIC ENDEAVOR.

>> ABSOLUTELY BECAUSE THE PRESSURE IS FOR PERFECTION.

AND THERE IS THE THAT BELIEF THAT WOMEN HAVE TO BE PERFECT IN MORE WAYS THAT A AND MALE ATHLETES, THEY HAVE TO LOOK PERFECT.

THEY HAVE TO ACT PERFECT AND PERFORM ON THE FLOOR, THE BALANCE BEAM, THE VAULT, THE TENNIS COURT PERFECTLY TO KEEP STAR STATUS OR TO OBTAIN STAR STATUS, THERE'S MORE PRESSURE IN TERMS OF WHO WOMEN ARE AT ATHLETES OVERALL.

THAT IT'S ALL ENCOMPASSING WHEREAS MALE ATHLETES CAN TAKE BREAK.

THERE ISN'T THAT SAME PRESSURE ON THEIR APPEARANCE OR BEHAVIOR THAT FEMALE ATHLETES FACE.

>> FEMALE ATHLETES ARE CRITICIZED IF THEY TAKE THEIR SHIRTS OFF, THEY'RE TOPS OFF WHEN THEY SCORE A SOCCER GOAL ON THE FIELD AND CRITICIZE IF THEY WEAR SHORTS INSTEAD OF LEE TARREDS IT'S AN INTERESTING CONUNDRUM FOR WOMEN TO BE IN.

>> YOU CAN'T WIN.

EITHER WAY, IT'S EITHER TOO MUCH OR TOO LITTLE.

IT'S NEVER RIGHT.

AND I THINK FEMALE ATHLETES FEEL THAT PRESSURE IMMENSELY.

WE'VE SEEN THE PERFECT, TO BE PERFECT, TO ACHIEVE SOME SORT OF IDEAL OUT OF REACH CREATES A LOT OF ANXIETY AMONG FEMALE ATHLETES.

NOT THAT IT DOESN'T AMONG MALE ATHLETES, WE'RE SEEING IT MORE PREVALENT AMONG FEMALE ATHLETES.

>> THANK YOU AS USUAL FOR YOUR EXPERTISE.

I APPRECIATE SEEING YOU AND WE'LL TALK AGAIN SOON.

THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, WE'LL BE BACK TOMORROW, THANKS FOR ♪.

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Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org