>> Reilly: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON": I'M ADAM REILLY IN FOR JIM BRAUDE.

THE CORONAVIRUS IS EVOLVING, BUT SO FAR IN THIS STATE PLANS FOR BACK TO SCHOOL AREN'T.

SHOULD THEY BE?

STATE SENATOR REBECCA RAUSCH AND MERRIE NAJIMY, PRESIDENT OF THE MASSACHUSETTS TEACHERS ASSOCIATION, JOIN ME.

THEN, LATER, HOW CONGRESS IS, AND ISN'T, RECKONING WITH THE JANUARY 6th ATTACK, AFTER SOME POWERFUL TESTIMONY FROM CAPITOL OFFICERS.

♪♪ >> Reilly: JUST A FEW WEEKS AGO, IT LOOKED LIKE THE UPCOMING SCHOOL YEAR MIGHT ACTUALLY BE...NORMAL.

IN LATE MAY, THE STATE'S DEPARTMENT OF ELEMENTARY AND SECONDARY EDUCATION SAID THAT COME THIS FALL, WITH COVID CASES AND DEATHS DROPPING AND VACCINATIONS RISING, ALL DISTRICTS AND SCHOOLS WILL BE REQUIRED TO BE IN-PERSON, FULL-TIME, FIVE DAYS A WEEK.

AND, ALSO, THAT ALL HEALTH AND SAFETY REQUIREMENTS WILL BE LIFTED.

BUT SUDDENLY THE FACTS ON THE GROUND LOOK VERY DIFFERENT.

CONFIRMED AND PROBABLE CASE COUNTS ARE RISING STEADILY THANKS TO THE DELTA VARIANT, WHICH IS INFECTING VACCINATED PEOPLE AS WELL AS THE UNVAXXED.

LAST WEEK THE AMERICAN ACADEMY OF PEDIATRICS SUGGESTED UNIVERSAL MASKING FOR STUDENTS THIS FALL.

AND ACTING BOSTON MAYOR KIM JANEY TOOK THE ADVICE, ANNOUNCING THAT ALL B.P.S.

STUDENTS WILL WEAR MASKS COME SEPTEMBER.

>> CHILDREN ARE CURRENTLY WEARING MASKS AS THEY ARE IN SUMMER SCHOOL AND IN DIFFERENT PROGRAMS THROUGHOUT THE CITY, AND IN THIS FALL THEY WILL BE WEARING MASKS STILL.

>> Reilly: SO FAR GOVERNOR CHARLIE BAKER HASN'T UPDATED THE STATE'S GUIDELINES.

BUT PRESSURE ON BAKER TO ACT IS GROWING: JUST YESTERDAY THE CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL BACKED UNIVERSAL INDOOR MASKING FOR ALL TEACHERS, STAFF, STUDENTS, AND VISITORS TO "K" THROUGH 12 SCHOOLS, REGARDLESS OF VACCINATION STATUS.

SO BY THE TIME WE GET TO SEPTEMBER, WHAT'S REALLY GOING TO BE HAPPENING IN THE STATE'S PUBLIC SCHOOLS?

AND IS LETTING INDIVIDUAL SCHOOL DISTRICTS DECIDE HOW TO MANAGE THE RISKS FROM COVID THE RIGHT WAY TO GO?

JOINING ME TO DISCUSS ARE STATE SENATOR REBECCA RAUSCH, WHO'S URGING BAKER TO IMPLEMENT A UNIVERSAL MASK MANDATE THIS FALL, AND MERRIE NAJIMY, THE PRESIDENT OF THE MASSACHUSETTS TEACHERS ASSOCIATION.

>> Reilly: THANK YOU BOTH FOR BEING HERE.

>> GOOD TO BE HERE.

>> Reilly: REBECCA, LET ME START WITH YOU: WHY DO WE NEED A STATEWIDE MANDATE FOR MASKS IF MUNICIPALITIES ARE FREE TO DO EXACTLY WHAT BOSTON DID, TO SAY THE NUMBERS AREN'T WHERE WE NEED THEM TO BE, SO WE'RE GOING TO DO IT LOCALLY.

WHY DO WE NEED TO DO IT AT THE STATE LEVEL?

>> WE KNOW THAT COVID KNOWS NO BOUNDARIES.

IT DOESN'T RECOGNIZE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ONE DISTRICT AND THE NEXT OR EVEN ONE COUNTY OR THE NEXT.

SO WE NEED A POLICY IMPLEMENTED STATEWIDE WHERE THERE IS NO CONFUSION, AND WE HAVE CLEAR GUIDANCE, AND WE'VE GOTTEN THAT FROM THE C.D.C.

AND THE AMERICAN ACADEMY FOR PEDIATRICS, AND EXPERT AND EXPERT, SPECIFICALLY TO COVID-19 AND CHILDREN.

EVERYONE IS SAYING MASK UP IN SCHOOLS.

AND THAT'S EXACTLY THE CONTENT AND THE REQUESTS THAT I PENNED IN THE LETTER, AND MANY COLLEAGUES JOINED ME.

>> Reilly: HAVE YOU GOTTEN A RESPONSE YET FROM THE ADMINISTRATION TO YOUR LETTER?

>> I BELIEVE THE GOVERNOR RESPONDED IN THE PRESS.

WE DID GET AN ACKNOWLEDGMENT FROM HIS STAFF.

>> Reilly: LAST QUESTION FOR YOU: WHY DO YOU THINK, AS SOMEONE WHO IS ON BEACON HILL WITH THE GOVERNOR, WHY DO YOU THINK HE HAS NOT ACTED YET ON THE RECOMMENDATIONS THAT HAVE COME OUT IN RECENT DAYS?

WHAT IS HE WAITING FOR?

>> YOU WOULD HAVE TO ASK THE GOVERNOR WHAT HE IS WAITING FOR.

TO ME, AND TO THE MANY, MANY PARENTS AND COLLEAGUES AND SCHOOL COMMITTEE MEMBERS AND TEACHERS AND SUPERINTENDENTS FROM WHOM I'VE HEARD IN THE LAST SEVERAL DAYS, IN PARTICULAR, AND IN THE LAST SEVERAL WEEKS, ALSO, AND MANY MONTHS, IS CRYSTAL CLEAR: WE ALL HAVE A SIMILAR GOAL: WE WANT KIDS AND TEACHERS TO BE ABLE TO BE IN SCHOOL.

BUT WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT SAFELY, AND IN A WAY THAT DOES EVERYTHING WE CAN TO AVOID MORE SCHOOL SHUTDOWNS, MORE PARENTS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO MAKE THINGS WORK WITH KIDS AND WORK AT HOME, AND TRYING TO MITIGATE EVERY POSSIBLE WAY THAT COVID-19 COULD SPREAD.

WE KNOW THAT MASKS WORK.

WE KNOW THAT THEY ARE VERY AFFECTIVE.

AND THE SCIENCE IS CLEAR, AND WE SHOULD FOLLOW THE SCIENCE.

>> Reilly: MERRIE NAJIMY, MY SENSE FROM COMMENTS FROM YOU THAT I'VE READ IS THAT YOU'RE ON BOARD WITH A UNIVERSAL MASK MANDATE, LIKE THE ONE REBECCA IS TALKING ABOUT?

AM I RIGHT ABOUT THAT, YOU LIKE THIS IDEA?

>> INDEED.

THE M.T.A.

HAS ADVOCATED AND WILL CONTINUE TO ADVOCATE TO DO ALL WE CAN TO RUSSIAN RETURN FULL, IN-PERSON, AS SAFELY AS POSSIBLE.

SO THIS MASK MANDATE WAS A WELCOME RECOMMENDATION.

THE M.T.A.

HAS CONSISTENTLY WORKED VERY HARD TO MAKE SURE THAT THE STATE DOES FOLLOW THE C.D.C.

RECOMMENDATIONS WHEN IT COMES TO BEING IN SCHOOL, AND THIS IS ALONG THOSE LINES.

IT IS THE RIGHT TIME.

>> Reilly: LET ME ASK YOU, FROM A TEACHER'S VANTAGE POINT, GIVEN THAT YOU SUPPORT THE IDEA OF UNIVERSAL MASKING, WHAT IS LOST IN THE CLASSROOM WHEN THE TEACHER AND THEIR STUDENTS ARE ALL WEARING MASKS?

WHAT DON'T KIDS AND TEACHERS GET?

>> YOU KNOW, THERE IS A SHIFT.

IF WE MOVE FROM WHAT WE TYPICALLY EXPECT, SEEING EACH OTHER'S FACIAL EXPRESSIONS, BEING ABLE TO HEAR EACH OTHER, BUT WE SHIFT AND WE ADAPT.

WE LEARN HOW TO READ BODY LANGUAGE IN A DIFFERENT WAY.

THERE IS A LOT OF EXPRESSION IN THE EYES.

AND, ADAM, I DO HAVE TO SAY, KIDS HAVE BEEN HEROS WITH MASKING.

FROM 26 YEARS IN THE CLASSROOM, I ALWAYS START MY YEAR, THE VERY FIRST DAY WE COME TO THE CIRCLE, AND I TALK TO MY KIDS, HOW DO WE BUILD A CLASS OF KIDS WHO CARE?

SO RIGHT THEN AND THERE WE CREATE NORMS OF HOW WE'RE GOING TO TREAT EACH OTHER.

MASKING FITS INTO THE NORMS THAT WE DEVELOP WITH OUR STUDENTS BECAUSE KIDS HAVE A FUNDAMENTAL SENSE OF WHAT IS FAIR.

AND THEY LEARNED DURING THE PANDEMIC THAT WHEN THEY MASK, THEY ARE PROTECTING THEIR FRIENDS, THEIR ENTIRE SCHOOL COMMUNITY, AND THAT IS THE SENSE OF FAIRNESS.

>> Reilly: REBECCA, LET ME GO BACK TO YOU.

WE GOT THROUGH THE PAST YEAR WITH SOME IN-PERSON LEARNING, I HAPPEN TO BE THE PARENT OF TO KIDS, ONE WHO IS TOO YOUNG TO BE VAXXED, AND SHE REQUESTED TO BE REMOTE, AND I KNOW OTHER KIDS HAD THE EXACT OPPOSITE PREFERENCE.

WE GOT THEW THE PAST YEAR IN LARGE PART BECAUSE KIDS WERE MARING WEARING MASKS IN SCHOOLS, AND THEY WERE SPACED APART, FIRST SIX FEET AND THEN THREE FEET, AND THERE WERE RIGOROUS PROTOCOLS ON HOW TO INTERACT WITH EACH OTHER, HOW TO INTERACT WITH STAFF.

ARE THOSE THINGS YOU ALSO WANT TO SEE THE GOVERNOR MANDATE AGAIN ON A STATEWIDE LEVEL, OR IS YOUR FOCUS RIGHT NOW STRICTLY ON MASKING?

>> WE DID HEAR FROM THE FOLKS THAT THE SPACING OR THE DISTANCING WAS GOING TO BE OFF THE TABLE IN ORDER TO GET TO FULL CAPACITY IN SCHOOLS FOR THIS YEAR.

HOWEVER, WE DO SEE NOW, FROM THE AAP AND THE C.D.C., THAT WE SHOULD BE USING MULTI-LAYERED APPROACHES TO MITIGATING THE SPREAD OF COVID-19.

BOTH OF MY CHILDREN ARE TOO YOUNG TO BE VACCINATED, AND THIS IS DIFFICULT.

WE ARE POST-LOCKDOWN, STILL IN A COVID WORLD, TO NAVIGATE FOR PARENTS LIKE ME.

>> Reilly: IT IS.

>> WE'RE JUST TRYING TO FIGURE OT HOW TO OUT HOW TO KEEP OUR KIDS HEALTHY, OUR FAMILIES HEALTHY, AND OURSELVES HEALTHY.

AND WE'RE VACCINATED, AND MY KIDS KEEP ASKING ME, CAN WE GET OUR FAUCI OUCH OUCHEE YET, AND THE ANSWER IS STILL NO.

THE EXPERTS ARE RECOMMENDING LAYERS OF PROTECTION FOR KIDS FOR THE SPREAD OF COVID-19, ESPECIALLY IN THE YOUNGER GRADES, AND THE "K" TO SIX SETTING BECAUSE NONE OF THOSE CHILDREN CAN BE VACCINATED.

>> Reilly: MERRIE, IF IN FACT THE STATE ENDS UP, DOWN THE ROAD, MOVING TOWARDS MULTIPLE LAYERS OF PROTECTION, IT SEEMS, GIVEN THE CAPACITY ISSUE THAT REBECCA BROUGHT UP, ONE POSSIBLE CONSEQUENCE OF THAT COULD BE, I ALMOST SHUTTER TO SAY IT, THE RETURN OF MANDATORY HYBRID LEARNING.

I WANT TO ASK YOU FROM A TEACHER'S POINT OF VIEW WHAT TEACHING REMOTELY WAS LIKE FOR YOUR MEMBERS?

I SAID I CAN'T IMAGINE ALL OF A SUDDEN DOING MY JOB COMPLETELY DIFFERENTLY IN THE WAY THEY DID.

HOW HARD IS IT FOR TEACHERS TO TEACH OVER ZOOM AS OPPOSED TO IN THE CLASSROOM?

>> THERE WAS A RANGE OF EXPERIENCES.

AND BEFORE I TALK ABOUT THOSE, WE ARE -- THE M.T.A.

HAS ALWAYS TAKEN THE POSITION THAT THE NUMBER ONE MOST IMPORTANT STRATEGY TO PUT IN PLACE SO WE CAN STAY IN THE BUILDING IS VENTILATION SYSTEMS.

THAT, COUPLED WITH MASKING AND VACCINATION AND COVID TESTING IN THE SCHOOLS IS THE RIGHT FORMULA.

THE EDUCATORS ARE -- THEY'RE REALLY GOOD AT LEARNING NEW THINGS ON THE FLY.

THEY CAME UP WITH VERY CREATIVE INTERNET TOOLS.

THEY TAUGHT EACH OTHER NEW STRATEGIES AND NEW TECHNIQUES.

AND THEY ACTUALLY FOUND THAT THERE WAS A SMALL POPULATION OF KIDS WHO DID BETTER REMOTELY THAN THEY DID IN THE CLASS BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE SOCIAL PRESSURES, THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE DISTRACTIONS.

BUT ALL TEACHERS, NO DOUBT, WANT TO BE BACK IN-PERSON.

SO THE MORE WE CAN GET SUPPORT FROM THE STATE -- THE GOVERNOR AND THE COMMISSIONER HAVE TO COME OUT AND SUPPORT THIS, AND THEY HAVE TO COME OUT AND TAKE LEADERSHIP ON THE THINGS THE UNIONS HAVE BEEN LEADING ON, AND THAT'S DOING ASSESSMENTS OF EVERY SINGLE BUILDING, AND KEEPING A DATA BASE ON THE CONDITIONS OF THE VENTILATION SYSTEM.

AND WE HAVE LEGISLATION THAT I KNOW SENATOR RAUSCH SUPPORTS THAT ACTUALLY CALLS ON THE STATE TO FIND THE FUNDS TO CONTINUE THE BUILDING UPGRADES SO THAT WE DON'T HAVE TO RISK GOING TO A HYBRID MODEL OR A REMOTE MODEL COME THIS FALL.

>> Reilly: YOU TALK ABOUT THAT LEGISLATION, I AM NO H-VAC EXPERT, BUT IT SEEMS LIKE A BIG JOB AND THE SCHOOL YEAR IS GETTING CLOSE.

MY HURNLG HUNCH IS I'LL PROBABLY BE TALKING TO BOTH OF YOU AGAIN FOR BETTER OR WORSE.

THANK YOU BOTH FOR BEING HERE.

>> GOOD TO BE WITH YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Reilly: NEARLY EIGHT MONTHS AFTER HORDES OF VIOLENT AND RACIST PRO-TRUMP RIOTERS STORMED THE CAPITOL, A DEADLY ATTACK THAT LEFT FIVE DEAD, HUNDREDS INJURED, AND MANY MORE EMOTIONALLY SCARRED, LAWMAKERS HAVE FINALLY BEGUN INVESTIGATING THE ORIGINS AND THE OUTCOMES OF THAT DAY, STARTING WITH FOUR POLICE OFFICERS WHO TESTIFIED ABOUT EVERYTHING THEY ENDURED TO PROTECT CONGRESS.

>> I COULD FEEL MYSELF LOSING OXYGEN AND RECALL THINKING TO MYSELF, THIS IS HOW I'M GOING TO DIE.

>> THE CROWD, PERHAPS AROUND 20 PEOPLE, JOINED IN SCREAMING, "BOO" (bleep) (bleep).

"THIS IS OUR HOUSE.

PRESIDENT TRUMP INVITED US HERE.

WE'RE HERE TO STOP THE STEAL."

>> THE MOB OF TERRORISTS WERE COORDINATING THEIR EFFORTS NOW, SHOUTING HEAVE HO AS THEY SYNCHRONIZED, PUSHING THEIR WEIGHT FORWARD, CRUSHING ME FURTHER AGAINST THE MIDDLE DOOR FRAME.

>> Reilly: ONE OFFICER ALSO CONDEMNING THE WAY HE AND HIS COLLEAGUES HAVE BEEN TREATED BY MANY CONGRESSIONAL REPUBLICANS SINCE THE ATTACK: >> THE INDIFFERENCE SHOWN TO MY COLLEAGUES IS DISGRACEFUL.

>> Reilly: THE HEARING WAS HELD BY A SELECT HOUSE COMMITTEE, ESTABLISHED MOSTLY BY DEMOCRATS, AFTER REPUBLICANS IN BOTH HOUSES OF CONGRESS REFUSED TO SUPPORT AN INDEPENDENT COMMISSION.

AND G.O.P.

LEADERSHIP DID THEIR BEST TO DISTRACT FROM THE TESTIMONY, TRYING TO SHIFT BLAME ON SPEAKER NANCY PELOSI AND OTHER TOP DEMOCRATS IN THE HOUSE.

>> ON JANUARY 6, THESE BRAVE OFFICERS WERE PUT IN A VULNERABLE AND IMPOSSIBLE POSITION BECAUSE THE LEADERSHIP AT THE TOP HAS FAILED.

>> THE ONLY SO-CALLED REPUBLICANS ON THE COMMITTEE ARE ON THE COMMITTEE TO GRANDSTAND AND ATTACK THE FORMER PRESIDENT BECAUSE OF THEIR OWN PERSONAL VENDETTAS.

THOSE PELOSI REPUBLICANS AREN'T INTERESTED IN THE TRUTH.

>> Reilly: THEY ALSO TRIED TO DISCREDIT THE ONLY G.O.P.

MEMBERS WHO WEREN'T KICKED OFF FOR COMMENTS THEY MADE SURROUNDING THE ATTACKS, BUT LIZ CHENEY AND ADAM KINZINGER PUSHED BACK.

>> IF CONGRESS DOES NOT ACT RESPONSIBLY, THIS WILL REMAIN A CANCER ON OUR CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC.

>> YOU KNOW, DEMOCRACIES ARE NOT DEFINED BY OUR BAD DAYS.

WE'RE DEFINED BY HOW WE COME BACK FROM OUR BAD DAYS, HOW WE TAKE ACCOUNTABILITY FOR THAT.

>> Reilly: JOINING ME TO DISCUSS ARE KAROUN DEMIRJIAN, A NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER FOR THE "WASHINGTON POST," AND ARIE PERLIGER, A SECURITY STUDIES PROFESSOR AT UMASS LOWELL.

>> Reilly: AND THE AUTHOR OF THE BOOK, "AMERICAN ZEALOTS."

THANK YOU BOTH FOR BEING HERE.

KAROUN, LET ME START WITH YOU: FOR CONGRESSIONAL DEMOCRATS, WHAT IS THE GOAL OF THIS COMMITTEE?

IS IT TO GET NEW INFORMATION?

IS IT TO RE-EMPHASIZE INFORMATION THAT WE ALREADY HAVE, BUT SOME PEOPLE HAVE MISREPRESENTED OR POSSIBLY FORGOTTEN?

A COMBINATION OF THE TWO?

SOMETHING ELSE?

>> I WAS GOING TO SAY, IT IS ALL OF THE ABOVE.

I THINK FOR A LOT OF DEMOCRATS, IT IS IMPORTANT TO RETELL THE STORY IN SERIOUS, SOMBER FASHION.

THERE HAVE BEEN SO MANY ACCOUNTS, AND YET SO MUCH POLITICAL MUD-THROWING AT THE SAME TIME IN THE LAST SIX MONTHS, THEIR TAKE IS IT IS DIFFICULT FOR THE AMERICAN PUBLIC TO SEPARATE FACT FROM FICTION.

AND SO WHAT YOU SAW YESTERDAY WAS THE FOUR POLICE OFFICERS.

MOST OF THOSE STORIES HAVE BEEN PUBLICIZED BEFORE THROUGH VARIOUS MEDIA, BUT IT WAS DIFFERENT TO SEE THEM ALL SITTING THERE, IN THEIR OWN WORDS FOR THREE AND A HALF HOURS GIVING THEIR TESTIMONY ABOUT WHAT THEY WENT THROUGH.

THAT WAS A VERY POWERFUL MOMENT.

THAT IS ONE OBJECT.

THE OTHER IS, YES, UNCOVER AS MUCH NEW INFORMATION AS THEY CAN.

WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT JANUARY 6, THE CONTEXT OF VARIOUS COMMITTEES, EVEN THROUGH THE IMPEACHMENT, BT WE DON'T KNOW ALL OF THE ANSWERS AS TO WHAT HAPPENED ON THAT DAY, AND THE MOMENTS AND THE DAYS LEADING UP TO JANUARY 6th.

YOU HEARD LIS LIZ CHENEY SAY WE WANT A MINUTE BY MINUTE ACCOUNT.

AND THAT WILL BE INTERVIEWING PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOT YET BEEN DEPOSED, WHAT IS GOING ON IN THE INNER SANCTUM.

WE DON'T HAVE THE FULL, DEFINITIVE PLAY-BY-PLAY.

>> Reilly: LET'S TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE BIG QUESTIONS THAT REMAIN UNANSWERED.

ARIE, I'LL GO TO YOU, BUT WHAT ARE THE THINGS WE STILL DON'T KNOW ABOUT WHAT LED UP TO THE ATTACK ON THE CAPITOL AND WHAT HAPPENED AFTER.

>> WHAT WE DO KNOW THIS WAS AN ORGANIZED EFFORT.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT MULTIPLE MOVEMENTS THAT WERE MOBILIZING THEIR SUPPORTERS.

AND WE HAVE NUMEROUS EVIDENCE THAT SHOWS THEY WERE REALLY PLANNING TO ENGAGE IN VIOLENCE.

THEY WERE BASICALLY INTERESTED IN DISRUPTING THE CERTIFICATION OF THE RESULTS PROCESS.

THEY HAD ALL INTENTIONS, BASICALLY, TO PREVENT THE BASICALLY THE APPROVAL OF THE ELECTION RESULTS.

THERE WAS NOT A SPONTANEOUS ESCALATION OF A PROTEST INTO A VIOLENT MOB.

NO.

WE HAVE CLEAR EVIDENCE THAT MAJOR MEMBERS OF THESE GROUPS, INCLUDING OF SOME THEIR MORE SIGNIFICANT LEADERS, ACTUALLY MOBILIZED THEIR SUPPORTERS TO ENGAGE IN VIOLENCE AGAINST LAW ENFORCEMENT, AS WELL AS TRYING TO GET INTO THE BUILDING IN ORDER TO DISRUPT THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS.

I THINK WHAT IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND IS HOW EXACTLY THESE FOLKS WERE ABLE TO PREPARE, TO ORGANIZE, TO PLAN THEIR ACTIONS, WITHOUT ANY REAL DISRUPTIONS FROM LAW ENFORCEMENT, FROM OUR INTELLIGENCE AGENCY.

HOW, DESPITE THE FACT WE HAD PLENTY OF ADVANCED WARNINGS ABOUT THEIR INTENTIONS, ABOUT THEIR CAPABILITIES, ABOUT THEIR PLANS, STILL THIS EVENTUALLY HAPPENED.

AND EVENTUALLY RESOURCES WERE NOT IN PLACE IN ORDER TO PREVENT THE ESCALATION.

>> Reilly: ONE OF THE QUESTIONS FOR ME WOULD BE, WERE MEMBERS OF THE LAW ENFORCEMENT AWARE OF THIS?

DID THEY CHOOSE TO LOOK THE OTHER WAY?

KAROUN, WOULD YOU ADD ANYTHING ELSE TO THE BIG LIST OF UNKNOWNS TO THIS EVENT?

>> JUST TO CAPITALIZE ON WHAT YOU WERE JUST SAYING RIGHT THEN, I THINK THERE WERE QUESTIONS ABOUT -- DID THEY LIST ENDEMIC PROBLEMS -- I THINK THOSE ARE THE CONSIDERABLE SYSTEMIC PROBLEMS THAT NEED TO HAVE A SERIOUS LOOK GOING FORWARD.

AND THERE ARE THE UNANSWERED QUESTIONS THAT DEMOCRATS WOULD LIKE TO HAVE ANSWERED DURING THE SECOND IMPEACHMENT TRIAL OF FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP.

I THINK THERE ARE GOING TO BE ELEMENTS OF JUST THE SPECIFICS OF WHO, WHICH POLITICIANS, WERE AWARE, GIVING WHAT ORDERS, AS WELL AS THE VARIOUS FACTORS OF SOCIETY THAT ARE CHANGING AND NOT BEING RECOGNIZED WELL ENOUGH.

THE OBJECTIVES ARE BOTH TO MAKE SURE IT NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN, RIGHT?

AND TO MAKE SURE THAT THE CAPITOL IS STEELED AND PREPARED.

BUT IT IS ALSO TO PUT DOWN A VERDICT.

FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP STILL HAS A LOT OF SWAY IN THE G.O.P.

IT IS GOING TO BE A NAIL-BITER OF A MID-TERM ELECTION SEASON IN CONGRESS.

A MAJORITY OF THE HOUSE OR THE SENATE COULD SWING, DEPENDING ON VARIOUS FACTORS.

IT IS THAT CLOSE.

THE FACT THIS IS HAPPENING NOW, IN THIS ENVIRONMENT, GIVEN THE POLITICAL REALITIES AS WELL AS THE SECURITY REALITIES ARE THE DUAL MANDATES THAT ARE PULLING AT THE VARIOUS STRINGS THAT PULL AT THESE LAWMAKERS.

>> Reilly: WHEN IT COMES TO KNOWLEDGE ABOUT THE EVENT ITSELF, LEAVING ASIDE THE POLITICAL IMPLICATIONS, WHICH, AS YOU NOTE, ARE ENORMOUS, HOW LIKELY IS IT THAT A SELECT COMMITTEE IS GOING TO BE ABLE TO GET ANSWERS TO THE SORT OF QUESTIONS WE'VE BEEN MENTIONING HERE?

OBVIOUSLY THEY DON'T HAVE THE POWER THAT AN INDEPENDENT COMMISSION WOULD HAVE, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, AND TELL ME IF I'M WRONG, THEY DON'T HAVE SUBPOENA NA POWER -- >> THEY DO HAVE SUBPOENA POWER.

>> Reilly: FORGIVE ME.

THANK YOU.

>> BUT IT IS IMPORTANT THAT YOU RAISE THAT, BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO PUT AN ASTERISK BY THAT.

BECAUSE THE HOUSE DOES NOT HAVE THE GREATEST LUCK ENFORCING ITS SUBPOENA POWER.

WHEN PEOPLE CLOSE TO PRESIDENT TRUMP, ESPECIALLY, DON'T WANT TO COMPLY WITH THE SUMMONS TO COME FORWARD.

YET MOST OF THE CASES HAVE BEEN STUCK IN THE COURT.

I DON'T WANT TO GET TOO DEEP, BUT THE ONE THAT MOVED THE FURTHEST HEAD, ENDED UP SETTLING OUT OF COURT, STILL TOOK TWO YEARS.

SO THAT DOESN'T SET THE BAR HIGH, OR THE TRACK RECORD, FOR GOING WITH THESE THINGS -- SORRY, MY SCREEN CUT OUT.

>> Reilly: IT'S A REALITY.

IT HAPPENS.

>> AND I THINK, AGAIN, THIS IS GETTING A LITTLE TECHNICAL, BUT YESTERDAY THERE WAS AN IMPORTANT SIGN FROM THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, THAT THEY WON'T BLOCK JUSTICE DEPARTMENT OFFICIALS FROM COMING FORWARD.

IF THAT IS SOMETHING THAT IS COPIED AT THE PENTAGON AND OTHER AGENCIES, YOU COULD HAVE A DELUGE OF AVAILABLE WITNESSES.

THE QUESTION IS: HOW DO THE PEOPLE RUNNING THIS SELECT COMMITTEE CHOOSE THAT STRATEGICALLY.

THE FIRST PART OF YOUR QUESTION WAS WHAT ABOUT SELECT COMMITTEES?

IT IS A MIXED BAG.

THEY ARE USUALLY MORE POLITICAL IN AN PENTAGON COMMISSION, WHICH CREATES THAT WHOLE WHAT IS HAPPENING OUTSIDE THE HEARING ROOM AND HOW THAT INFORMATION IS BEING INTERPRETED.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE LAST HISTORY OF -- RECENT MODERN HISTORY, YOU HAVE EVERYTHING FROM THE SENATE WATERGATE COMMUNITY, WHICH DID A REALLY GOOD JOB CHANGING HEARTS AND MINDS IN THE COUNTRY TO THE BEN BENGHAZI COMMISSION.

THOSE ARE THE TWO EXTREMES.

AND WE DON'T KNOW WHERE THIS IS GOING TO FALL, BUT WE'RE IN A EXTREMELY POLITICAL TIME, SO YOU HAVE TO CONSIDER THAT IN THE REFLECTION OF HOW ALL OF THIS IS GOING TO GO DOWN.

>> Reilly: WITH AN INDEPENDENT COMMISSION, YOU MIGHT HAVE PRESSURE TO REACH AN ATTAINED CLOSURE THAT IS ACCEPTABLE TO PEOPLE WHO ARE REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS.

AND HERE YOU HAVE ONE PARTY BASICALLY RUNNING THE SHOW.

THEY MAY NOT FEEL THAT SENSE OF OBLIGATION TO BEND OVER BACKWARDS, TO MAKE SURE THEIR COLLEAGUES ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE AISLE ARE HAPPY.

IS THAT FAIR?

>> THAT'S FAIR.

I DON'T THINK ANYBODY IS WORRIED ABOUT MAKING ANY REPUBLICANS HAPPY, BEYOND LIZ CHENEY AND ADAM KINZINGER.

BUT I THINK THERE IS ALSO THE QUESTION OF -- AND I'M SORRY TO KEEP BEING THE ONE TO BRING UP POLITICS -- >> Reilly: NO, IT IS IMPORTANT.

>> WELL, IT IS THE REALITY OF WHAT IS POSSIBLE, IN TERMS OF PRAGMATIC MATTERS, HOW FAR YOU CAN PUSH YOUR SUBPOENA, CAN YOU GET FORMER CHIEF-OF-STAFF MARK MEADOWS IN, OR CAN YOU TELL THE STORY WITH OTHER PEOPLE.

ALSO, HOW CAN YOU TELL IT IN A WAY THAT IS ACTUALLY GOING TO CONVINCE THE VOTERS WHO NEED TO RE-ELECT YOU AND KEEP YOUR MAJORITY SO YOU CAN KEEP DOING THINGS LIKE THIS?

I KNOW SOME PEOPLE WOULD SAY THERE ARE PEOPLE IN THE G.O.P.

WHO SAY THIS IS A POLITICAL WITCH HUNT.

THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY SAYS IT IS ACTUALLY SHEDDING A LIGHT ON WHAT THE TRUTH IS.

IF YOU WANT TO KEEP GOING, YOU HAVE TO STAY IN OFFICE, ESPECIALLY IN THE HOUSE.

>> Reilly: ARIE, LET ME GET YOUR TAKE, SINCE YOU'RE NOT STEEPED IN THE DAY TO DAY POLITICS OF THIS, THE WAY THAT KAROUN IS.

FROM YOUR VANTAGE POINT, WHAT DOES THE COUNTRY NEED AS A FUNCTIONING MUNICIPALITY, WHERE HOPEFULLY WE CAN CONTINUE LIVING TOGETHER WITHOUT POLITICAL VIOLENCE.

WHAT DOES THE COUNTRY NEED THIS EXERCISE TO ACCOMPLISH?

WHAT WOULD YOU HOPE IT WOULD ACCOMPLISH?

>> FIRST, I THINK IT WILL HELP US BETTER UNDERSTAND THE THREAT THAT COMES FROM EXTREMIST MILITANT GROUPS IN THIS COUNTRY.

FOR MANY, MANY YEARS, WE BASICALLY IGNORED VIOLENCE THAT COMES FROM DOMESTIC POLITICAL ACTIONS, RIGHT?

WE WERE VERY RELUCTANT TO TERM THESE ACTS AS ACTS OF TERRORISM.

FOR MANY YEARS FOR US, TERRORISM WAS A FOREIGN POLICY PROBLEM.

NOBODY HAS TALKED ABOUT DOMESTIC TERRORISM.

WE USE WORDS LIKE "HATE CRIMES."

FINALLY WE'RE ACKNOWLEDGING THIS IS A SUBSTANTIAL THREAT TO OUR NATIONAL SECURITY AND TO THE SECURITY OF THE DEMOCRATIC SYSTEM.

IF I MAY, I THINK THE MAIN CHALLENGE IS NOT THE EXISTENCE OF THESE GROUPS.

WE HAVE ALWAYS HAD THEM ON THE MARGINS OF THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM.

THE K.K.K.

HAS BEEN WITH US FOR 150 YEARS.

THE MAJOR CHALLENGE IS THE FACT THAT TODAY THESE GROUPS WERE ABLE TO MOBILIZE THE MASS.

THEY ARE ENJOYING SUPPORT FROM A MUCH LARGER CONSTITUENCY THAN THEY EVER HAD IN THE PAST, WHEN WE HAD MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WHO WERE WILLING TO FOLLOW AND ADOPT AND EMBRACE THEIR CONSPIRACY THEORIES, THEIR VIEWS ABOUT THE GOVERNMENT, AND THE WAY THEY CHALLENGE THE GOVERNMENT AS THE SOURCE OF ALL AUTHORITY.

THIS IS A THREAT WE HAVEN'T FACED BEFORE.

EVEN IN THE HIGH DAYS OF THE K.K.K., FOR EXAMPLE, IT NEVER WAS ABLE TO GAIN SUCH REACH TO SUCH A WIDER AUDIENCE.

INCLUDING THE FACT THERE ARE OTHER CONTRIBUTING FACTORS.

THE INCREASING POR POR POR LARIZATIONPOLARIZATION.

THE POLITICAL RIVALS, SOMETIMES ON BOTH SIDES.

YOU HAVE MUCH LESS A MECHANISM THAT CAN BRING THIS TOGETHER TODAY.

AND EVENTUALLY YOU GET TO THE POINT WHERE YOU SEE WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6.

JANUARY 6th WAS NOT THE ACCUMULATION OF THE PROCESS; IN MANY WAYS IT IS THE OPENING ACT OF THAT PROCESS.

AND IF WE WON'T ENGAGE IN DIFFERENT MEASURES IN ORDER TO HEAL OUR DEMOCRATIC SYSTEM OR THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS, AS WELL AS TO FIND WAYS TO EDUCATE THE PUBLIC, OR AT LEAST PREVENT THESE GROUPS FROM PROMOTING THEIR NARRATIVES, WE ARE PHASING A SIGNIFICANT CHALLENGE.

>> Reilly: KAROUN, I WANT TO GIVE THE LAST WORD TO YOU.

WITHOUT ASKING TO BETRAY CONFIDENCES, WHEN YOU SPEAK WITH POLITICIANS WHO ARE CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6, DO THEY SAY IT AS SORT OF A ONE-OFF EVENT THAT WON'T HAPPEN AGAIN, CERTAINLY, BUT WE NEED TO FIGURE OUT WHAT WENT ON.

OR DO THEY SEE IT AS SOMETHING, AS ARIE SAYS, SOMETHING THAT MAY BE THE BEGINNING OF A PROCESS OF SOMETHING THAT COULD EASILY HAPPEN DOWN THE ROAD?

>> I THINK ARIE IS RIGHT TO IDENTIFY THAT FEAR.

THERE IS A VERY HARD AND FAST LINE DOWN THE MIDDLE OF CONGRESS, BETWEEN PEOPLE WHO WANT TO PRETEND THIS IS NO BIG DEAL AND MAKE IT GO AWAY, AND PEOPLE WHO ARE SAYING WE NEED TO SCRUTINIZE AND LOOK AT THAT IS BECAUSE THIS IS TERRIFYING.

AND THE PEOPLE WHO FALL INTO THE WE NEED TO LOOK AT THIS AND FIGURE OUT WHAT IS WRONG ARE SAYING IT BECAUSE THEY THINK IT IS QUITE POSSIBLE IT COULD HAPPEN AGAIN.

THEY DON'T WANT TO LET IT HAPPEN AGAIN WHEN THEY'RE NOT ON THE WATCH, AND THAT IS VERY MUCH A CONCERN.

I THINK PEOPLE ON THAT DAY WHO WERE STUCK IN THE CAPITOL DIDN'T KNOW THAT IT WAS AS BAD AS IT WAS, BUT THEY THOUGHT THERE COULD HAVE BEEN PEOPLE WHO HAD BIGGER GUNS AND IT WAS MORE DEADLY THAN IT TURNED OUT TO BE, BUT I THINK THAT FEAR HAS STAYED WITH THEM, THAT THIS WAS BAD, BUT IT COULD ALWAYS BE WORSE.

IT'S WHAT IS MOTIVATING A LOT OF THIS ACTION YOU SEE RIGHT NOW.

>> Reilly: I SAID I WAS GOING TO GIVE YOU THE LAST WORD, BUT I FIND IT INCREDIBLY DISMAYING, AS WE TALK ABOUT THIS.

IT WAS SHOCKING TO WATCH IT UNFOLD.

AND THEN SIX MONTHS DOWN THE ROAD TO HAVE PEOPLE DENYING WHAT WE ALL SAW OCCUR ACTUALLY OCCURRED.

IT IS DISHEARTENING.

ON THAT NOTE, KAROUN DEMIRJIAN AND ARIE, THANK YOU BOTH FOR TALKING US THROUGH IT.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>>Reilly: THAT IS IT FOR TONIGHT.

WE'LL BE BACK TOMORROW.

THANKS FOR WATCHING.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org ♪♪