♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>>> WITH AFRICAN HEADS OF STATE GATHERED IN RUSSIA, WE LOOK AT PUTIN'S STRENGTHENING ALLIANCES AND WHAT IT MIGHT MEAN FOR THE WAR.

>>> PLUS -- >> RUSSIA ATTEMPTS TO BREAK PEOPLE'S RESISTANCE.

>> UKRAINE CONTINUES TO SUFFER THE HORRORS OF THAT WAR.

MY CONVERSATION WITH THOSE FIGHTING FOR ACCOUNTABILITY.

THE NOBEL PEACE LAUREATES.

>>> AND -- >> WE AT THIS MOMENT HAVE AN EVEN MORE IMPORTANT JOB TO DO TO BE VIGOROUSLY ENFORCING THE ANTITRUST LAWS, PROTECTING FAIR COMPETITION, PRESERVING OPEN MARKETS.

>> A NEW APPROACH TO CORPORATE MERGERS, WALTER ISAACSON EXPLORES NEW RULES WHICH AIM TO PRESENT HARM TO WORKERS.

>>> THEN -- ♪ >> AS DISCO DIVA GRACE JONES HAS A MAJOR MOMENT AT 75, WE LOOK BACK AT CHRISTIANE'S FASCINATING CONVERSATION WITH A LIVING LEGEND.

CHLK >>> AND FINALLY -- ♪ >> ANOTHER MUSICAL TREAT.

NICOLA BENEDETTI, ONE OF THE MOST ACCLAIMED VIOLINISTS OF HER GENERATION JOINS ME WITH HER VIOLIN.

"AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY CANDACE KING WEIR, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, MARK J. BLECHNER, SETON J. MELVIN, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

WE TRY TO LIVE IN THE MOMENT, TO NOT MISS WHAT'S RIGHT IN FRONT OF US.

AT MUTUAL OF AMERICA, WE BELIEVE TAKING CARE OF TOMORROW CAN HELP YOU MAKE THE MOST OF TODAY.

MUTUAL OF AMERICA FINANCIAL GROUP, RETIREMENT SERVICES AND INVESTMENTS.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM EVERYONE, I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

UKRAINE IS CONTINUING TO MAKE GAINS IN THE SOUTH AS ITS COUNTEROFFENSIVE APPEARS TO BE RAMPING UP.

THIS AS VLADIMIR PUTIN HOSTS AFRICAN LEADERS AT A SIMILAR MITT IN ST. PETERSBURG.

THE RUSSIAN PRESIDENT IS PAINTING HIS COUNTRY AS A, QUOTE, RELIABLE FOOD SUPPLIER TO AFRICA YET HE PULLED OUT OF THAT CRUCIAL GRAIN DEAL AND CONTINUES TO ATTACK THE IMPORTANT PORT CITY OF ODESA.

AT THE SUMMIT, PUTIN ALSO SAID HE'S, QUOTE, CAREFULLY CONSIDERING A PEACE PLAN PROPOSED BY AFRICAN LEADERS.

MEANWHILE, NORTH KOREAN DICTATOR KIM JONG-UN IS HOSTING RUSSIA'S DEFENSE CHIEF IN PYONGYANG IN A FURTHER SHOW OF SUPPORT.

SO WHAT MIGHT THESE ALLIANCES THAT PUTIN IS FORGING MEAN FOR THE WAR?

ANNE APPLEBAUM IS A HISTORIAN AND STAFF WRITER AT THE ATLANTIC.

SHE'S WRITTEN ON THE RISE OF AUTHORITARIANISM AND JOINS ME NOW FROM WAR SAW.

LET'S TALK ABOUT THIS AFRICA SUMMIT THAT HAS JUST WRAPPED UP IN ST. PETERSBURG.

17 AFRICAN LEADERS ATTENDED IT COMPARED WITH 43 IN 2019, AND THEY ISSUED A FEW JOINT STATEMENTS, ONE OF UNITY, I'LL READ THAT TO YOU, RUSSIA AND AFRICAN COUNTRIES AGREE TO PURSUE COMPENSATION FOR COLONIALISM, RETURN OF CULTURAL ARTIFACTS, ET CETERA, BUT THEN THE CHAIR OF THE AFRICAN UNION GOES ON TO SAY THAT PUTIN'S GRAIN OFFER IS NOT SUFFICIENT.

OBVIOUSLY THIS GRAIN OFFER AFTER HE PULLED OUT OF THE GRAIN DEAL WITH UKRAINE SAYING THAT RUSSIA ALONE CAN SUPPLEMENT GRAIN TO AFRICAN COUNTRIES.

THE CHAIR SAYS A CEASE FIRE IS NEEDED AND THEN WENT ON TO SAY PUTIN HAS SHOWN READINESS TO NEGOTIATE WITH UKRAINE AND NOW THE, QUOTE, OTHER SIDE NEEDS TO BE PERSUADED.

WHAT SHOULD WE READ INTO THIS SUMMIT, ITS OUTCOME AND RUSSIA'S CONTINUED INFLUENCE IN AFRICA?

>> SO I THINK FIRST OF ALL, WE CAN READ INTO THE SUMMIT THE FACT THAT PUTIN IS LOSING INFLUENCE IN AFRICA.

THIS HAS BEEN TRUE FOR SOME TIME, AND I THINK THE ENDING OF THE GRAIN EXPORT ARRANGEMENT WITH UKRAINE AND THE BOMBING OF THE PORT IN ODESA HAS HAD AN IMPACT.

YOU HEARD SEVERAL AFRICAN LEADERS CRITICIZE HIM FOR THAT, AND I THINK THE -- YOU KNOW, THE RUSSIAN PROPAGANDA IS BEGINNING TO FALL APART BECAUSE PROPAGANDA WORKS WHEN THERE'S SOME GRAIN OF TRUTH TO IT OR WHEN THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT IT THAT PEOPLE WANT TO BELIEVE, BUT THE FACT IS THAT PUTIN IS DESTROYING THE GRAIN TRADE.

HE'S CREATED MUCH HIGHER INTERNATIONAL PRICES, AND THAT'S HARD TO HIDE, AND SO YOU HAVE -- YOU HAVE A SERIES OF LEADERS WHO ARE REALLY NO LONGER WILLING TO MEET WITH HIM AND ARE NO LONGER WILLING TO REPEAT WHAT HE'S BEEN SAYING.

RUSSIA STILL HAS A LOT OF INFLUENCE IN AFRICA, PARTLY THROUGH THE WAGNER GROUP, WHICH IS ANOTHER INTRIGUING AND STRANGE, YOU KNOW, ASPECT OF THIS WHOLE STORY.

THE WAGNER GROUP KEEPS IN POWER SEVERAL AFRICAN DICTATORSHIPS, AND SO THEY ALSO HAVE AN INTEREST IN MAINTAINING THEIR LINKS TO RUSSIA.

BUT I'M NOT SURE THAT THIS SUMMIT IS REALLY, YOU KNOW, A DEMONSTRATION OF RUSSIAN STRENGTH OR RUSSIAN INFLUENCE.

>> YEAH, THE BIGGEST TAKEAWAY IT APPEARS FOR MANY, INCLUDING MYSELF, IS THE PHOTO OF THE FORMER HEAD, THE CURRENT HEAD, I DON'T KNOW WHAT HIS ROLE IS RIGHT NOW OF WAGNER, YEVGENY PRIGOZHIN.

WE DO KNOW HE APPEARS TO BE ALIVE AND WELL THUS FAR IN ST. PETERSBURG, AND THERE YOU SEE HIM STANDING WITH A CENTRAL AFRICAN REPUBLIC REPRESENTATIVE.

YOU TALK ABOUT THE ROLE AND THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN WAGNER AND THESE AFRICAN COUNTRIES.

ONCE AGAIN, IT DOES APPEAR TO NOT ONLY QUESTION WHAT, IF ANY, RESPONSE PUTIN WILL HAVE AGAINST PRIGOZHIN GIVEN THAT FAILED MUTINY, BUT ALSO THE POWER THAT HE DOES SEEM TO STILL WIELD WITH THESE COUNTRIES.

>> SO ONE OF THE THINGS I THINK WE FAILED TO UNDERSTAND OR SOME PEOPLE FAILED TO UNDERSTAND WAS THE IMPORTANCE THAT WAGNER HAS FOR PUTIN AND FOR THE KIND OF KREMLIN NETWORK MORE BROADLY.

WAGNER IS RUSSIA'S FOREIGN POLICY IN AFRICA.

WAGNER IS ALSO PROBABLY THE SOURCE OF A LOT OF MONEY FOR PUTIN CRONIES.

IT'S NOT SO EASY TO JUST CUT HIM OFF OR GET RID OF HIM, AND YOU KNOW, THEY CREATED HIM OVER MANY YEARS AS A KIND OF AS I SAY ALTERNATE FORM OF FOREIGN POLICY.

YOU KNOW, HE DOES THE DIRTY WORK IN AFRICA.

HE SUPPORTS DICTATORSHIPS.

HE SENDS IN MERCENARIES TO HELP PEOPLE OUT, AND AT THE SAME TIME, HE CONTROLS, SUPPOSEDLY, GOLD MINES AND OTHER KINDS OF NATURAL RESOURCES AND EXPLOITS THEM, AND THEN THAT MONEY GOES BACK TO MOSCOW.

AND JUST ELIMINATING THAT TURNED OUT TO BE TOO DIFFICULT, EVEN WHEN -- EVEN AFTER HE RAN THAT EXTRAORDINARY REBELLION.

AND SO I THINK WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS, AGAIN, THE DEVELOPMENT WITH A VISIBLE, I SHOULD SAY DEVELOPMENT OF CRACKS WITHIN THE RUSSIAN LEADERSHIP, AND THEY WERE PROBABLY THERE ALREADY.

WE JUST WEREN'T ABLE TO SEE THEM QUITE SO CLEARLY.

YOU KNOW, DIFFERENT PEOPLE HAVE DIFFERENT INTERESTS, AND THEY'RE BEGINNING TO COMPETE WITH ONE ANOTHER.

>> SO WHAT DOES THIS SAY ABOUT PUTIN'S MIND-SET RIGHT NOW, NOT ONLY MANAGING A WAR THAT CLEARLY DIDN'T GO AS HE HAD PLANNED, BUT ALSO NOW THE AFTERMATH OF THIS FAILED MUTINY?

THERE'S NEW REPORTING FROM "THE WASHINGTON POST" THIS WEEK FROM SOURCES IN U.S. INTELLIGENCE CONFIRMING THAT VLADIMIR PUTIN SEEMED TO HAVE JUST FROZEN FOR 24 HOURS OR SO WHEN THIS MUTINY WAS TAKING PLACE, EVEN THOUGH HE APPARENTLY HAD BEEN GIVEN A HEADS-UP.

YOUR RECENT PIECE ON THE REBELLION ARGUED THAT AFTER SPENDING YEARS OF CULTIVATING PUBLIC APATHY, THE RUSSIAN PRESIDENT FOUND HIS PEOPLE INDIFFERENT TO HIS OWN FATE.

I RECENTLY INTERVIEWED A RUSSIAN JOURNALIST AND HE SAID THAT ALL OF HIS SOURCES CONFIRMED THAT PUTIN'S DECISIONS ARE A BIT STRANGE.

HOW SHOULD WE BE INTERPRETING ALL OF THIS?

>> YEAH, SO JUST TO EXPLAIN WHAT I WROTE, FOR MANY, MANY YEARS THE RUSSIAN STATE HAS BEEN ENCOURAGING CITIZENS TO BE APATHETIC, AND THEY DO THIS DELIBERATELY, SO THEY DO IT BY EMITTING CONFUSING AND CONTRADICTORY PROPAGANDA, BY DISCOURAGING PEOPLE FROM FORMING ANY KIND OF INDEPENDENT GROUPS OR ASSOCIATIONS.

NEVER MIND POLITICS OR POLITICAL PARTIES.

AND THEN WHEN THERE WAS A REAL ATTACK ON THE RUSSIAN STATE OR ON THE RUSSIAN ARMY, IT MEANT THAT CITIZENS WERE APATHETIC ABOUT THAT TOO.

EVEN MORE STRANGE WAS WHEN WAGNER AND HIS MEN WERE IN ROSTOV, WHICH IS ESSENTIALLY THE MILITARY CAPITAL, THE CITY FROM WHEN THE OPERATIONS OF UKRAINE ARE BEING RUN, THEY TISSUE -- PASSER-BY AND PEOPLE WALKING DOWN THE STREETS SEEMED TO WELCOME THEM.

THEY BROUGHT THEM BOTTLES OF WATER AND ICE CREAM AND ALL KINDS OF OTHER THINGS, AND YOU KNOW, IT WAS ALMOST AS IF FINALLY THERE WAS SOME POLITICS TO FOLLOW.

THERE WAS AN INTERESTING -- SOMEONE INTERESTING TO LISTEN TO WHO WAS SAYING SOMETHING A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT, AND THEY SEEMED ALMOST, YOU KNOW, INTERESTED AND INTRIGUED BY IT.

BECAUSE HE SHUT DOWN CONVERSATIONS SO MUCH, ALMOST ANY APPEARANCE OF CHANGE OR ANYTHING OUT OF THE UNUSUAL SUDDENLY BECOMES IMPORTANT AND SIGNIFICANT, AND I THINK -- I THINK THE PRIGOZHIN REBELLION, THE AFTER EFFECT OF THAT, YOU KNOW, CONTINUES.

PEOPLE ARE NOW -- THEY WANT TO KNOW WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN NEXT.

WHO'S GOING TO BE THE NEXT CHALLENGER.

WHERE WILL THE NEXT CRACK BECOME VISIBLE?

YOU KNOW, SO IN A WAY, LE -- THE PRIGOZHIN REBELLION RESTARTED A POLITICAL CONVERSATION IN MOSCOW THAT SEEMED TO HAVE BEEN PRETTY DEAD.

>> YEAH, AND KREMLIN PROPAGANDA FOR A GOOD 24 HOURS DIDN'T EVEN KNOW HOW TO RESPOND TO THIS ATTEMPTED MUTINY BECAUSE THEY WERE GIVEN NO DIRECT ORDERS FROM THE KREMLIN AS TO HOW TO RESPOND.

GO AHEAD.

>> YEAH, NO DIRECT ORDERS, AND PUTIN HIMSELF LEFT THE CAPITAL.

HE DISAPPEARED.

>> YEAH.

>> SO YOU KNOW, FIRST GIVING A SPEECH IN WHICH HE, YOU KNOW, VIRTUALLY COMPARED HIMSELF TO NICHOLAS II AND HE STARTED TALKING ABOUT THE RUSSIAN REVOLUTION WHICH WAS CLEARLY ON HIS MIND, AND THEN HE VANISHED, WHICH LEFT PEOPLE SPECULATING HE LEFT THE CITY OF MOSCOW PREPARING FOR AN INVASION.

PEOPLE WERE DIGGING DITCHES OUTSIDE OF THE CITY.

THEY WERE GIVEN A CURFEW AND TOLD TO STAY HOME FROM WORK.

SO IT WAS A -- IT LEFT ITS MARK AS, I THINK, PROBABLY THE FIRST TIME THAT THE WAR IN UKRAINE HAS REALLY BEEN BROUGHT HOME TO PEOPLE IN THE CAPITAL CITY.

>> AND IT STILL RAISES QUESTIONS ABOUT HIS -- THE ACTUAL POPULARITY HE HAS AMONG RUSSIAN PEOPLE AT HOME.

IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO OBVIOUSLY CONDUCT POLLING IN THE COUNTRY.

YOU TALK ABOUT THE APATHY THAT'S FELT THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY.

HE STILL SEEMS TO BE QUITE POPULAR, AT LEAST, WITH SOME PART OF THE POPULATION.

I WAS REALLY STRUCK -- AND IT'S ALMOST COMICAL IF THIS WASN'T A REALITY, RUSSIAN FOREIGN MINISTRY SPOKESPERSON SAID THE UKRAINIANS HATE ASK ARE VERY AGGRESSIVE TOWARDS PUTIN EXACTLY BECAUSE THEY WANT HIM TO BE PRESIDENT.

SO WE CAN QUESTION, I THINK, HOW RUSSIANS FEEL ABOUT VLADIMIR PUTIN.

I WOULD ARGUE THAT IT'S PRETTY APPARENT HOW UKRAINIANS FEEL ABOUT HIM.

>> IT'S PRETTY APPARENT.

I MEAN, THAT'S JUST -- THAT'S, YOU KNOW, A WEIRD FORM OF RUSSIAN PROPAGANDA WHERE THEY TRY AND PROJECT THEIR OWN PROBLEMS ONTO OTHER PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, SO MAYBE WHAT SHE'S TRYING TO TELL US IS THAT RUSSIANS AREN'T RESPECTING PUTIN ENOUGH, AND THEREFORE SHE -- YOU KNOW, SHE'S TRYING TO FIND HATRED SOMEWHERE ELSE.

WHO KNOWS, THEIR THINKING IS NOW VERY CONVOLUTED, AND AS I SAY, ONE OF THE ASPECTS OF RUSSIAN PROPAGANDA THAT MAKES IT HARD FOR OUTSIDERS TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT THEY DELIBERATELY SAY THINGS THAT ARE CONFUSING AND CONTRADICTORY PRECISELY IN ORDER TO MAKE PEOPLE SAY, RIGHT, I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT'S GOING ON.

I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT'S TRUE.

EVERYTHING IS FAKE.

I'M STAYING AWAY FROM POLITICS.

I DON'T WANT TO KNOW ANYTHING AT ALL, AND I THINK THAT WAS, YOU KNOW, YET ANOTHER CONTRIBUTION TO THAT GENRE.

REMEMBER, THE RUSSIANS ARE NOW IN THE VERY DIFFICULT POSITION OF HAVING TO EXPLAIN WHY IT IS THAT THE UKRAINIANS ARE MAKING PROGRESS, WHY IT IS THEY HAVEN'T GIVEN UP.

WHY THEY AREN'T RUSSIANS.

REMEMBER, THE WAR BEGAN BECAUSE PUTIN SAID, YOU KNOW, UKRAINE IS PART OF RUSSIA.

AS SOON AS WE WALK INTO KYIV, EVERYBODY WILL GIVE UP.

NONE OF THAT HAS HAPPENED.

IT'S BEEN MORE THAN A YEAR AND A HALF, AND THEY NEED EXPLANATIONS, AND THEY'RE BEGINNING TO RUN SHORT OF THEM.

>> YEAH, AND THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO EXPLAIN SOMEHOW WHY RUSSIA IS NOW APPARENTLY WEAPON SHOPPING IN THE HERMIT STATE OF NORTH KOREA AS WELL.

ANNE APPLEBAUM, ALWAYS GREAT TO HAVE YOU ON AND YOUR PERSPECTIVE.

THANK YOU, WE APPRECIATE IT.

>>> WELL, MY NEXT GUESTS ARE WORKING HARD TO PREVENT THE, QUOTE, BAD GUYS AS ANNE APPLEBAUM DESCRIBES THEM FROM WINNING.

THEY ARE THE 2022 NOBEL PEACE LAUREATES.

OLEKSANDRA MATVIICHUK FROM UKRAINE'S CENTER FOR LIBERTIES.

ALEKSANDR CHERKASOV, AND KANSTANTSIN STARADUBETS REPRESENTING JAILED BELARUSIAN HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVISTS.

EARLIER THIS WEEK, I SAT DOWN WITH ALL THREE TOGETHER FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE BEING AWARDED THE NOBEL PRIZE.

THE CONVERSATION WAS HOSTED BY THE CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT FOR INTERNATIONAL PEACE.

I STARTED BY ASKING OLEKSANDRA HOW MANY CRIMES HER ORGANIZATION HAS DOCUMENTED IN UKRAINE THUS FAR?

>> WORKING TOGETHER SINCE 24 FEBRUARY UNTIL NOW, WE HAVE IN OUR DATABASE MORE THAN 45,000 EPISODES OF WAR CRIMES.

45,000.

IT'S ENORMOUS AMOUNT, BUT STILL TIP OF ICEBERG BECAUSE RUSSIA USES WAR CRIMES AT FEAR.

RUSSIA ATTEMPTS TO BREAK PEOPLE'S RESISTANCE AND OCCUPY UKRAINE BY THE TOOL WHICH I CALL THE IMMENSE PAIN AND SUFFERING OF CIVILIAN POPULATION.

IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND WHAT WE ARE DOING LITERALLY.

WE'RE NOT JUST DOCUMENTING RELATIONS OF CONVENTIONS.

WE DOCUMENT HUMAN PAIN.

HUMAN PAIN WHEN RUSSIAN TROOPS DELIBERATELY SHELLING RESIDENTI RESIDENTIAL BUILDINGS, SCHOOLS, CHURCHES, HOSPITALS, EVACUATION CORRIDORS, ORGANIZED FORCIBLE DEPORTATIONS, COMMIT MURDERS, TORTURES, RAPES, ABDUCTIONS AND OTHER KINDS OF OFFENSES AGAINST CIVILIANS, AND NOT JUST NATIONAL ARCHIVES, I HAVE A HUGE RESPECT TO THE WORK OF HISTORIANS, BUT I'M NOT HISTORIAN.

I'M HUMAN RIGHTS LAWYER.

WE DOCUMENT IT FOR JUSTICE, TO HAVE PUTIN AND ALL RUSSIANS WHO COMMITTED THESE CRIMES BY THEIR OWN HANDS ACCOUNTABLE.

AND THIS IS IMPORTANT NOT JUST FOR UKRAINIANS, NOT JUST FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE ALREADY AFFECTED BY RUSSIAN WAR CRIMES, BUT ALSO FOR PEOPLE WHO CAN BE NEXT RUSSIAN TARGET.

>> ARE YOU WORRIED THAT WHATEVER REPLACES VLADIMIR PUTIN'S REGIME COULD PUT YOUR COLLEAGUES WHO ARE STILL IN RUSSIA IN EVEN MORE DANGER?

>> Translator: YOU KNOW, WE HAVE SUCH EXPERIENCE.

ACTUALLY, IN 1953, THIS WERE WAE MAN WHO DIED THAT YEAR, AND THAT MAN WAS SURROUNDED BY ACCOMPLICE, BY ALLIES, AND ALL OF THEM, ALL THESE PEOPLE D DISMANTLED THE REGIME THAT THAT MAN WHO DIED CREATED.

FIRST AMONG THEM WAS THE NATIONAL SECURITY DIRECTOR.

SO LET'S NOT BE AFRAID OF THE WORST THINGS THAT MIGHT HAPPEN IN THE FUTURE.

OTHERWISE THE FUTURE WILL COME WITHOUT US, JUST LIKE HOMER SIMPSON SAID, OUR CHILDREN ARE OUR FUTURE UNLESS WE STOP THEM.

>> DON'T STOP CHILDREN.

>> HOMER SIMPSON, OUR NATIONAL POET LAUREATE.

>> I WISH I HAD SOME OF YOUR OPTIMISM, SO I APPRECIATE HEARING THAT.

KANSTANTSIN, WE TALKED ABOUT HIS WELL BEING RIGHT NOW.

IN MAY A FRIEND TOLD CNN THAT CONTACT HAD BEEN LOST FOR A MONTH.

ALSO IN THAT MONTH 100 NOBEL LAUREATES CALLED FOR HIS RELEASE.

AT THE NOBEL LECTURE, GIVEN BY NATALIA IN HER HUSBAND'S HONOR AND SHE RECEIVED THE PRIZE, SHE SHARED SOME OF HIS THOUGHTS WHERE SHE SAID I RECENTLY HAD A SHORT DIALOGUE, WHEN WILL YOU BE RELEASED THEY ASKED ME.

I AM ALREADY FREE IN MY SOUL WAS MY REPLY.

MY FREE SOUL HOVERS OVER THE DUNGEON AND THE MAPLE LEAF OUTLINES OF BELARUS.

WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT ALICE'S SPIRIT AND THE FOUNDATION WHICH WAS ORGANIZED IN 1996 IN ITS FIGHT FOR HUMAN RIGHTS SITUATION COMPARED TO WHERE WE STAND NOW?

>> THAT SAYS THAT ALICE JUST LIKE ALEKSANDR'S COLLEAGUE WHO STAYED IN RUSSIA, ALICE STAYED IN BELARUS, AND WOULD BE ARRESTED AND IT TAKES IMMENSE COURAGE TO DO THAT, BUT IT ALSO ACTUALLY FREES YOU EVEN IF YOU'RE IN PRISON, AND THAT'S WHAT HE DESCRIBED IN HIS -- IN THE QUOTE THAT YOU JUST READ OUT.

THAT HE IS ACTUALLY NOT IN CAPTIVITY SPIRITUALLY, IN HIS MIND HE IS FREE.

AND THAT IS BECAUSE HE BELIEVES -- HE STRONGLY BELIEVES IN WHAT HE PREACHES, IN WHAT HE HAS DONE ALL THOSE YEARS, AND HE ALSO IS -- FEELS THIS DIRECT RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE ORGANIZATION THAT HE FOUNDED 27 YEARS AGO.

HE UNDERSTANDS HOW IMPORTANT THE WORK OF HUMAN RIGHTS DEFENDERS IN BELARUS IS, HOW IMPORTANT IT IS TO CONTINUE TO BE -- TO LEAD THIS MOVEMENT OF HUMAN RIGHTS, WHETHER YOU ARE IN PRISON OR FREE.

>> IT IS SYMBOLIC, AS WE NOTED, THAT A UKRAINIAN, A BELARUSIAN AND A RUSSIAN ARE CO-LAUREATES, AND ALEKSANDR, SOME UKRAINIANS DO NOT AGREE WITH THAT DECISION.

I HEARD FROM PEOPLE ONLINE AND ON TWITTER THAT THEY WERE SURF PRA SURPRISED THAT EVEN THE THREE OF YOU WOULD BE HERE TOGETHER.

HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THAT CRITICISM?

>> FIRST, I WANT TO EXPLAIN TO THE AUDIENCE WHY SOME PART OF UKRAINIAN SOCIETY CRITICIZED THE DECISION OF NOBEL COMMITTEE BECAUSE SOMETIMES IT'S NOT UNDERSTANDABLE FOR INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY.

BUT WHEN UKRAINIANS SEE THIS TITLE, RUSSIA, UKRAINE, AND BELARUS TOGETHER, IT'S IMMEDIATELY REFER US TO THE SOVIET UNION TIME AND THIS -- ABOUT SISTER NATIONS, WHICH WAS A HUGE LIE BECAUSE IT WAS NO SISTER NATIONS, ONLY ONE NATION WAS DOMINATE.

ONLY ONE CULTURE WAS DOMINATE, AND NOW WHEN WE ARE IN WAR AND RUSSIA AND BELARUS ARE COUNTRIES AGGRESSORS, IT'S BECOME EXTREMELY PAINFUL TO ACCEPT THIS LIE.

AND THAT IS WHY I EXPLAIN TO UKRAINIAN SOCIETY THAT THIS AWARD NOT ABOUT COUNTRIES.

THIS AWARD ABOUT PEOPLE, AND IF WE WANT TO REFER TO THE SOVIET UNION, LET'S REFER TO THE DISSIDENCE MOVEMENTS WHEN PEOPLE WHO STOOD UP THEIR VOICE FOR FREEDOM FROM DIFFERENT COUNTRIES, WORK TOGETHER, BUILD INVISIBLE TIES, EVEN FOR THEIR OWN SOCIETIES AND FIGHT JOINTLY AGAINST COMMON EVIL WHO TRY TO DOMINATE IN OUR PART OF THE WORLD.

AND NOW WE SEE HOW HISTORY IS REPEATED.

I WORK WITH RUSSIAN AND HUMAN -- RUSSIAN AND BELARUS HUMAN RIGHTS DEFENDERS FOR YEARS, BEFORE THIS WAR STARTED IN 2014, AND EVEN MORE INTENSE WHEN THE WAR STARTED AFTER 2014.

AND I EXTREMELY GRATEFUL FOR MY HUMAN RIGHTS COLLEAGUES THAT WHEN I APPLIED FOR THEM WITH HUNDREDS REQUEST OF HELP ABOUT UKRAINIAN POLITICAL PRISONERS, ABOUT FINDING ILLEGALLY DETAINED UKRAINIAN SCIVILIANS, ABOUT DOIG SOMETHING IN UNBELIEVABLE CIRCUMSTANCES, WITH THEIR WORK THEY ALWAYS RESPOND ME WITH HELP AND ASSISTANCE.

>> A REALLY POWERFUL AND INSPIRING CONVERSATION I HAD THERE WITH THE THREE OF THEM.

I WAS REALLY HONORED TO BE JOINING THEM.

>>> WELL, BACK HERE IN THE U.S., THERE ARE BOLD NEW GUIDE LINES IN THE WORKS TO SCRUTINIZE BLOCKBUSTER BUSINESS DEALS AND ENSURE THEY'RE IN THE INTEREST OF CONSUMERS AND COMPETITION.

ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL JONATHAN KANTER AND CHAIR OF THE FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION LINA KHAN JOIN WALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS.

>> JONATHAN KANTER AND LINA KHAN, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> GREAT TO BE HERE.

>> LET ME START WITH YOU, MR. KANTER.

WHICH IS FOR MORE THAN A CENTURY ANTITRUST LAW HAS BEEN BUILT ON TWO PILLARS EVER SINCE THE SHERMAN ANTITRUST ACT, THE CLAYTON ACT AND USV STANDARD OIL, IT'S BEEN HARM TO CONSUMERS AND ANOTHER STANDARD IN THE BALANCE HAS BEEN HARM TO COMPETITION IN GENERAL.

I WANT TO EXPLAIN THE NEW GUIDELINES YOU'VE ISSUED, AND IT SEEMS KNOW THAT PRETTY MUCH ALONG THE LINES OF OLDER GUIDELINES, EXCEPT FOR THEY ADD ONE COMPONENT, WHICH IS HARM TO WORKERS.

IS THAT ABOUT RIGHT?

>> SO THE GUIDELINES ARE NOT LAW.

THEY'RE SIMPLY A REFLECTION OF THE CURRENT MODERN CASE LAW, AND MODERN CASE LAW APPLIES TO WORKERS, BUT THE GUIDE LALINES NOT JUST ABOUT HARM TO WORKERS, IT'S A CENTRAL FEATURE.

IT'S ALSO ABOUT RECOGNIZING MODERN REALITIES.

THE GUIDELINES TALK ABOUT TECH TECHNOLOGY PLATFORMS.

THE GUIDELINES TALK ABOUT ENTRENCHMENT OF MONOPOLY POWER, RECOGNIZING THAT SOMETIMES A FIRM THAT HAS A REALLY DOMINANT POSITION CAN ACQUIRE A COMPETITIVE THREAT.

ALL OF THOSE ARE WAYS IN WHICH COMPETITION PRESENTS ITSELF.

SO WHEN WE STARTED WRITING THESE GUIDELINES, WE HAD AN IMPORTANT QUESTION.

IMPORTANT QUESTION IS, HOW DOES COMPETITION IN THIS MARKET PRESENT ITSELF?

AND DOES THIS MERGER THREATEN THAT COMPETITION?

AND THAT QUESTION'S GOING TO BE DIFFERENT FOR EVERY INDUSTRY.

IT'S GOING TO BE DIFFERENT FOR EVERY MERGER, BUT WE HAVE TO START WITH THE FACTS.

WE HAVE TO START WITH A DEEP, SOPHISTICATED UNDERSTANDING OF HOW COMPETITION WORKS, AND IT WORKS DIFFERENTLY TODAY THAN IT DID 50 YEARS AGO.

PHONES DON'T HAVE ROTORS, DOCUMENTS ARE NOT STORED IN FILE CABINETS.

AND WITH THE EXCEPTION OF MY DAD AT THE TIME, PEOPLE DON'T STOP AND ASK THE GAS STATION FOR DIRECTIONS.

THINGS HAVE CHANGED, AND THAT'S GREAT, BUT WE NEED TO MAKE SURE WE UNDERSTAND THOSE CHANGES WITH A DEEP LEVEL OF SOPHISTICATION, AND WE'RE ADDRESSING COMPETITION AS IT IS, NOT AS IT WAS.

>> CHAIR KHAN, YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT DECADES OF RETREAT, AND I THINK WHAT YOU MEAN IS RETREAT FROM THAT STANDARD NOT OF HARM TO CONSUMERS BUT OF HARM TO COMPETITION IN GENERAL.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT DECADE OF RETREAT.

>> SO LOOK, WE LOOK VERY CLOSELY AT THE EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE AND HOW MARKETS HAVE EVOLVED OVER RECENT DECADES.

WE ALWAYS WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE ENFORCING THE LAW IN A WAY THAT'S FULLY REFLECTING THE REALITY OF HOW BUSINESSES IN TODAY'S ECONOMY ARE COMPETING AND ARE GROWING.

THERE HAS BEEN EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE AND RESEARCH SHOWING THAT UNFORTUNATELY MARKETS HAVE BECOME CONSOLIDATED IN RECENT DECADES, AND SO WE AT THIS MOMENT HAVE AN EVEN MORE IMPORTANT JOB TO DO TO BE VIGOROUSLY ENFORCING THE ANTITRUST LAWS, PROTECTING FAIR COMPETITION, PRESERVING OPEN MARKETS BECAUSE CONGRESS TOLD US THAT WE HAVE A PREFERENCE FOR COMPETITION OVER CONSOLIDATION, COMPETITION BENEFITS CONSUMERS THROUGH PROVIDING BETTER QUALITY PRODUCTS, LOWER PRICES.

IT CAN BENEFIT WORKERS BY PROVIDING THEM MORE OPTIONS AND OPPORTUNITIES AND BETTER WAGES, AND THEN OPEN MARKETS IS HOW WE HAVE REMAINED AT THE FOREFRONT GLOBALLY, WHERE BREAKTHROUGH INNOVATIONS AND INCREDIBLE TECHNOLOGICAL FEATS HAVE BEEN PRODUCED IN AMERICA IN GOOD PART BECAUSE OF OUR FREE ENTERPRISE SYSTEM OF OPEN COMPETITIVE MARKETS AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE CHARGED WITH PRESERVING.

>> LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT YOUR PHRASE THAT COMPETITION ALWAYS HELPS CONSUMERS.

THE SHIRT I'M WEARING, FOR EXAMPLE, I GOT IT.

IT'S AMAZON ESSENTIALS, OR MY TROUSERS, I USED TO GET HOSE SHORTS FROM LANDS' END, FROM DOCKERS.

AS I GOT THEM THROUGH AMAZON, THEY NOTICED MY BUYING HABITS AND GAVE ME CHEAPER, EASIER WAYS TO DO IT.

IT SEEMS TO ME THAT IT'S GOOD FOR THE CONSUMERS EVEN THOUGH IT'S REALLY BAD FOR LANDS ENDS AND DOCKERS.

DO WE FOCUS ON THINGS LIKE A PLATFORM LIKE AMAZON USING ITS INFORMATION TO BE ANTICOMPETITIVE, OR DO WE JUST LOOK AT, HEY, I KIND OF FEEL GUILTY ABOUT WEARING THESE THINGS, BUT IT'S GOOD FOR ME AS A CONSUMER?

>> SO AS A GENERAL MATTER, WE LOOK VERY CLOSELY AT THE FACTS AND SPECIFICALLY WHETHER BUSINESSES ARE ENGAGING IN ANTICOMPETITIVE PRACTICES TO MAINTAIN THEIR MONOPOLIES IN ILLEGAL WAYS.

IT'S UNDER THE ANTITRUST LAWS NOT ILLEGAL TO BE BIG.

IT'S NOT ILLEGAL TO BE DOMINANT.

WHAT'S ILLEGAL IS BECOMING A MONOPOLY OR BECOMING DOMINANT IN WAYS THAT ARE INVOLVING ILLEGAL BUSINESS PRACTICES.

THAT CAN BE ILLEGAL MERGERS.

IT CAN BE ILLEGAL CONDUCT, AND SO WE'RE VERY FOCUSED ON WHETHER THERE HAS BEEN ANY ILLEGALITY IN TERMS OF HOW FIRMS ARE USING THEIR MARKET POWER TO BLOCK OUT COMPETITION AND MAKE IT DIFFICULT FOR CONSUMERS AND WORKERS TO HAVE MORE OPTIONS.

>> MR. KANTER, FOLLOWING UP ON THAT, ONE OF YOUR GREAT PREDECESSORS AS THE ANTITRUST DIVISION AT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT WAS JOEL KLEIN, AND HE AND THE LAWYER DAVID BOYCE BROUGHT THIS LANDMARK CASE AGAINST MICROSOFT, WHICH WAS JUST WHAT CHAIR KHAN HAS BEEN TALKING ABOUT.

THEY USE THEIR DOMINANCE IN THE DESKTOP OPERATING SYSTEM OF PCs TO GET INTO THE BROWSER BUSINESS, MAYBE EVEN GET INTO THE SEARCH BUSINESS.

TELL ME HOW THAT CASE, WHICH I THINK IS A LAST REALLY BIG CASE TO BE DECIDED BY A LOT OF COURTS, HOW THAT AFFECTS WHAT YOU CAN DO IN THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.

S >> ABSOLUTELY.

THAT WAS AN HISTORIC CASE BROUGHT BY OUR PREDECESSORS HERE AT THE ANTITRUST DIVISION.

IT ESTABLISHED THE IMPORTANT PRINCIPLE THAT A PLATFORM CAN BE A MARKET.

IN THE CASE OF MICROSOFT IT TELLS US A LOT ABOUT TODAY'S TECHNOLOGIES.

SO THAT CASE DEALT WITH MERGING THREATS.

THEY CALLED THEM NASCENT THREATS AT THE TIME.

THE IDEA THAT SOMETHING CAN COME ALONG AND DISRUPT THE OPERATING SYSTEM AND LEAD TO A NEW GENERATION OF TECHNOLOGIES THAT CAN PROVIDE BENEFITS THAT WE COULDN'T EVEN IMAGINE AT THE TIME.

AND SO THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT BROUGHT A CASE TO PROTECT THOSE NEW INNOVATIONS, AND GIVE THEM THE OPPORTUNITY TO REACH CONSUMERS, TO REACH ENTREPRENEURS, TO REACH BUSINESSES.

AND SO MICROSOFT ESTABLISHES THE PRINCIPLE THAT IF YOU HAVE A DOMINANT PLATFORM AND YOU HARM COMPETITION BY SQUASHING EMERGING, COMPETITIVE THREATS, EMERGING TECHNOLOGIES, THAT CAN BE ILLEGAL UNDER THE ANTITRUST LAWS, THE SAME ANTITRUST LAWS THAT WERE USED TO ADDRESS STANDARD OIL AND AT&T.

>> SO LET ME ASK YOU, CHAIR KHAN, IF YOU LOOK AT THINGS LIKE WHAT HAPPENED TO MICROSOFT, THAT ALLOWED GOOGLE TO COME ALONG AND DO A CHROME BROWSER AND A SEARCH ENGINE, BUT NOW GOOGLE IS BUNDLING ALL THESE THINGS.

HOW DO YOU APPLY AT THE FTC THESE PRECEDENTS THAT WERE SET BY THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT CASES?

>> SO WE LOOK VERY CLOSELY AT ALL OF THE RELEVANT LEGAL PRECEDENTS.

THERE HAVE BEEN A WHOLE SET OF SEMINOLE ANTITRUST CASES OVER THE LAST FEW DECADES, AND WE'VE GOTTEN FROM THE COURTS REALLY IMPORTANT LEGAL DECISIONS THAT HAVE BEEN APPLYING WHAT ARE, YOU KNOW, CENTURY-OLD ANTITRUST LAWS AND NEW CONTEXT.

AND THAT'S THE BEAUTY OF OUR ANTITRUST LAWS IS THAT THEY ESTABLISH LEGAL PRINCIPLES ABOUT APPROPRIATE WAYS TO BE COMPETING, AND IT'S UP TO US AS ENFORCERS TO BE APPLYING THOSE PRINCIPLES IN ALL SORTS OF CONTEXTS.

SO FOR EXAMPLE, LAST YEAR, THE FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION SUED TWO PESTICIDE MANUFACTURERS BECAUSE THEY WERE ENGAGING IN THESE PAY TO BLOCK SCHEMES THAT WERE BLOCKING GENERIC PRODUCERS FROM THE MARKET.

AND AS A RESULT OF THAT, FARMERS HAD TO PAY BILLIONS OF DOLLARS MORE THAN THEY WOULD HAVE, AND WE AS THE FOOD PAYING PUBLIC ALSO ENDED UP PAYING FOR THOSE PRACTICES.

SO WE CAN SEE HOW WHEN YOU HAVE DOMINANT FIRMS THAT ARE ENGAGING IN PRACTICES THAT ARE DESIGNED TO BLOCK OUT COMPETITION, THAT CAN HAVE VERY NEGATIVE EFFECTS, AND YOU CAN SEE THAT IN DIGITAL MARKETS.

YOU CAN SEE THAT IN AGRICULTURE MARKETS.

IT'S REALLY ECONOMY WIDE THAT WE AS ANTITRUST ENFORCERS ARE CHARGED BY CONGRESS TO BE VIGILANT AND BE PROTECTING AND PRESERVING OPEN COMPETITIVE MARKETS.

>> CHAIR KHAN, AS YOU KNOW, PROBABLY FULL WELL, YOU'VE COME A BIT OF A LIGHTNING ROD AS A SYMBOL OF MUCH MORE AGGRESSIVE OR AT LEAST MORE AGGRESSIVE ANTITRUST ENFORCEMENT.

AND IT'S BECOME A SENSE THAT YOU'RE ANTIBUSINESS BECAUSE OF THIS.

EVEN LARRY SOMMERS WHO WAS PRESIDENT OBAMA'S TREASURY SECRETARY SAID THAT YOU'VE CREATED A WAR ON BUSINESS.

THOSE ARE HIS WORDS, AND CERTAINLY, ESPECIALLY REPUBLICANS BUT SOME DEMOCRATS EVEN, ARE TRYING TO CUT BACK A BIT ON FTC FUNDING AND GUIDELINES.

HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THE FACT THAT IT REALLY DOES SEEM LIKE YOU'RE HURTING BUSINESS IN A WAY?

>> SO LOOKING ANTITRUST -- WHAT IS REALLY ABOUT IS PRESERVING OPEN COMPETITIVE MARKETS, AND WHEN YOU HAVE OPEN COMPETITIVE MARKETS, THAT GUARANTEES THAT THE BEST IDEAS WIN.

WHAT WE WANT IS AN ECONOMY AND A MARKET THAT CONGRESS PRESCRIBED WHERE IF YOU HAVE A GOOD IDEA, YOU'RE ABLE TO BRING IT TO MARKET, YOU'RE ABLE TO COMPETE ON THE MERITS.

AND SO IF CONSUMERS LIKE YOUR PRODUCT, YOU'RE ACTUALLY ABLE TO SUCCEED IN THE MARKETPLACE.

WE AT THE FTC HEAR ROUTINELY FROM BUSINESSES INCLUDING INDEPENDENT PHARMACISTS, INDEPENDENT GROCERS, PEOPLE ACROSS SECTORS WHO COME TO US AND TELL US THAT FOR THEM AS BUSINESSES IT BECOMES VERY DIFFICULT TO COMPETE IF THEY'RE GETTING MUSCLED OUT OF THE MARKET BY MONOPOLISTS WHO MIGHT BE ENGAGING IN ANTICOMPETITIVE PRACTICES, AND SO WE MAKE A VERY CONCERTED EFFORT TO BE HEARING FROM BUSINESSES BECAUSE WE UNDERSTAND THAT ROBUST ANTITRUST ENFORCEMENT IS REALLY THE WAY THAT WE'RE GOING TO SEE THE TYPE OF COMPETITION AND THE TYPE OF INNOVATION THAT FOR DECADES HAS KEPT AMERICA AT THE FOREFRONT AND DELIVERED SIGNIFICANT INNOVATION, PRESERVING COMPETITIVE MARKETS AS CONGRESS HAS PRESCRIBED IS THE WAY TO KEEP DOING THAT.

>> DO YOU THINK THESE NEW GUIDELINES ARE GOING TO GO TO THE SUPREME COURT AT SOME POINT?

AND WHAT DO YOU THINK THE OUTCOMES COULD BE?

>> THAT'S THE BEAUTY OF OUR LEGAL SYSTEM IS CASES MOVE THROUGH THE COURTS.

BUT THE LAST TIME I CHECKED, SUPREME COURT CASES DON'T EXPIRE, AND SO CASES THAT WERE DECIDED RIGHT AROUND THE TIME THAT ANTITRUST LAWS WERE AMENDED, CASES LIKE BROWN SHOE, AND CASES LIKE PHILADELPHIA NATIONAL BANK THAT ESTABLISHED THESE CORE PRINCIPLES WERE DESIGNED TO INTERPRET THE STATUTE.

AND GUESS WHAT, CASES TODAY CITE ALL OF THOSE OLD SUPREME COURT CASES.

SO UNTIL THE SUPREME COURT REVERSES ITSELF AND UNLESS THEY DO, WE HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO FOLLOW THE LAW AS IT'S WRITTEN AND AS IT'S INTERPRETED BY COURTS, AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT COURTS ARE DOING.

AND SO WE'RE GOING BACK TO FIRST PRINCIPLES, WE'RE GOING BACK TO BASICS.

THIS IS AN EXERCISE IN LAW ENFORCEMENT.

THESE ARE STATUTES WRITTEN BY CONGRESS, AND FOR GOOD REASON BECAUSE COMPETITION AND DEMOCRACY, COMPETITION AND FREEDOM, COMPETITION AND ECONOMIC LIBERTY ALL GO HAND IN HAND, AND WE'RE GOING TO ENFORCE THE LAW AS WRITTEN, AS INTERPRETED BY COURTS WHEN SUPPORTED BY THE FACTS IN ORDER TO VINDICATE THOSE INTERESTS FOR THE PUBLIC.

>> CHAIR KHAN, ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS USED BY ESPECIALLY THE TECHNOLOGY COMPANIES THAT WANT TO GET TOGETHER IS THAT WE'RE COMPETING WITH CHINA AND THAT WITHOUT BIG COMPANIES AND THE EFFICIENCIES THAT COME FROM THAT, WE'RE GOING TO BE CRUSHED BY CHINA IN TERMS OF EVERYTHING FROM AI TO OTHER TECHNOLOGY ISSUES.

DOES THAT ENTER INTO YOUR CALCULUS?

>> IT'S IS AUSUCH A GOOD QUESTI WALTER, YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT THAT THESE ARE ARGUMENTS THAT SOMETIMES GET MADE, AND THIS SAN AREA WHERE OUR HISTORY CAN BE EXTREMELY INSTRUCTIVE.

SO THESE ARE VERY SIMILAR ARGUMENTS THAT WERE BEING MADE DURING THE COLD WAR WHERE THERE WAS PRESSURE ON ANTITRUST ENFORCERS TO HOLD BACK AND PROTECT DOMESTIC MONOPOLY, AND AT THAT MOMENT, AMERICA WISELY MADE THE CHOICE TO TRUST OUR SYSTEM OF FREE ENTERPRISE AND COMPETITIVE MARKETS AND TRUST THAT THAT TYPE OF OPEN COMPETITIVE SYSTEM WOULD OUT-INNOVATE A CENTRALIZED SYSTEM OF STATE-BACKED MON MONO MONOPOLIES, AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT WE SAW.

IN THE DECADES SINCE, WE'VE SEEN ENORMOUS INNOVATION.

WE'VE SEEN AMERICAN COMPANIES REALLY AT THE FOREFRONT GLOBALLY, AND SO I TAKE A LOT OF GUIDANCE FROM THAT HISTORY WHERE WHEN WE'VE TRUSTED IN OUR OPEN, COMPETITIVE MARKETS, THAT'S REALLY BEEN WHAT'S BEST POSITIONED US TO COMPETE GLOBALLY GIVEN JUST THE INGENUITY AND INNOVATION THAT AMERICAN BUSINESSES HAVE BEEN ABLE TO PROVIDE.

>> LET ME ASK BOTH OF YOU, STARTING WITH MR. KANTER, TO LOOK AT THE NEXT GREAT BIG EMERGING INDUSTRY AND IDEA, WHICH IS ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE.

WE'RE COMPETING WITH CHINA IN IT.

WE HAVE HUNDREDS OF FIRMS TRYING TO ENTER THE MARKET, AND YET, WE ALSO HAVE THE TWO BIG DOMINANT FIRMS, GOOGLE AND MICROSOFT.

GOOGLE WAS ALLOWED TO BUY DEEP MIND, WHICH IS AT THE FOREFRONT OF ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, AND MICROSOFT HAS MADE A RELATIONSHIP, AN INVESTMENT RELATIONSHIP AND TO SOME EXTENT PARTNERSHIP WITH OPEN AI.

STARTING WITH YOU, MR. KANTER, TELL ME HOW YOU ALL ARE LOOKING AT ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE AND WHETHER THAT'S EVEN AN ECONOMIC MARKET THAT'S SUBJECT TO ANTITRUST?

>> YEAH, SO INFLECTION POINTS IN TECHNOLOGY ARE OFTEN THE MOST IMPORTANT MOMENT TO PROTECT IN TERMS OF COMPETITION BECAUSE THAT'S WHEN IT -- MARKETS BECOME CONTESTABLE, BUT IN ORDER TO DO THAT, WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT WE UNDERSTAND AI AT A LEVEL OF SOPHISTICATION.

AND SO JUST AS IN THE '80s, THE ANTITRUST AGENCIES RIGHTLY EQUIPPED THEMSELVES WITH SOME OF THE MOST TALENTED ECONOMISTS O'THAT WE COULD UNDERSTAND MARKETS BETTER AND WE CONTINUE TO DO THAT UNTIL THIS DAY, WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE ALSO BRINGING IN THE TECHNOLOGICAL EXPERTISE TO UNDERSTAND THESE TECHNOLOGIES WITH GREATEST SFIS CA SOPHISTICATION AND WE'RE DOING THAT BY HIRING DATA SCIENTISTS, AI EXPERTS.

BUT LET ME ALSO SAY ONE OF THE BIG IMPORTANT CHANGES WITH AI IS THAT DATA IS NO LONGER A BY-PRODUCT OF THE TECHNOLOGY.

IT IS THE PRODUCT OF THE TECHNOLOGY.

AND SO WE ARE IN A WORLD WHERE ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE LIVES AND BREATHES ON MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF DATA AND SO TO THE EXTENT THAT MARKETS ARE NOT CONTESTABLE AND COMPETITIVE ACROSS THE ECONOMY, INCLUDING IN HEALTH CARE, INCLUDING IN ENERGY AND AGRICULTURE, THE AI TECHNOLOGIES THAT ARE GOING TO BE BUILT ARE GOING TO TIP ONLY TO THE FIRMS THAT HAVE THE GREATEST AMOUNT OF DATA AND INFORMATION.

SO IT'S EXTREMELY IMPORTANT THAT IN ORDER TO USHER IN A COMPETITIVE AND VIBRANT REVOLUTION OF NEW TECHNOLOGIES FOR AI THAT OUR MARKETS ARE COMPETITIVE AND ACCESS THE DATA AND INFORMATION IS SOMETHING THAT IS ACCESSIBLE BROADLY AND THAT WE DON'T JUST ALLOW THE SMALL NUMBER OF PLAYERS WITH THE MOST DATA TO TIP AND WIN THOSE MARKETS UNCONTESTED.

>> CHAIR KHAN, LET ME ASK YOU TO COMMENT ON THAT NOTION OF DATA AND WHETHER OR NOT DATA CAN BE LEVERAGED TO CREATE DOMINANCE IN A FIELD OR WHETHER IT SHOULD BE MORE OPEN IN THE FUTURE.

>> SO IT'S CERTAINLY TRUE THAT IN DIGITAL MARKETS IN PARTICULAR WE'VE SEEN DATA BECOME A CRITICAL INPUT WHERE YOU HAVE TO HAVE ACCESS TO DATA IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO SCALE AND IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO COMPETE, AND SO JUST WITH ANY OTHER INPUT OR CRITICAL RESOURCE, IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE ARE PRESERVING OPEN COMPETITIVE ACCESS TO THIS DATA, WHICH CAN BE SO CRITICAL TO COMPETE.

YOU KNOW, WALTER, WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT EVERYBODY IS CLEAR THAT THE ANTITRUST LAWS ENTIRELY APPLY, EVEN IN CONTEXT INVOLVING AI.

I THINK SOMETIMES WE HEAR ARGUMENTS THAT SOME OF THESE TECHNOLOGIES ARE EMERGING IN SOME TYPE OF REGULATORY VACUUM, AND WE THINK IT'S EXTRAORDINARILY IMPORTANT THAT THE MARKET KNOWS THAT EXISTING LAWS PROHIBITING COLLUSION STILL APPLY, EXISTING LAWS PROHIBITING DISCRIMINATION APPLY, EXISTING LAWS PROHIBITING FRAUD APPLY, AND SO THERE'S NO AI EXCEPTION FROM THE EXISTING LAWS ON THE BOOKS, AND WE THINK THAT IT'S ESPECIALLY IMPORTANT GIVEN HOW REVOLUTIONARY THESE TECHNOLOGIES COULD BE THAT WE'RE PRESERVING THE CONTESTABILITY OF MARKETS AND AVOIDING ANY ILLEGAL BEHAVIOR.

>> LINA KHAN, JONATHAN KANTER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>>> NOW WE LOOK BACK TO ONE OF OUR FAVORITE OF CHRISTIANE'S CONVERSATIONS.

HERE SHE SPEAKS WITH A CULTURAL GIANT, THE MODEL, ACTRESS, AND MUSICIAN, GRACE JONES.

WITH DISCO IN THE MIDST OF A MAJOR COMEBACK, THE SLAVE TO THE RHYTHM SINGER IS BACK IN THE SPOTLIGHT WORKING WITH ARTISTS LIKE BEYONCE AND PERFORMING ACROSS THE GLOBE.

NOT A BAD WAY TO REACH 75 AS SHE DID EARLIER THIS YEAR.

CHRISTIANE FIRST SPOKE TO JONES AS THE #METOO MOVEMENT WAS GOING GLOBAL AND THE STAR'S DOCUMENTARY REVEALED HER OWN STRUGGLE WITH CHILDHOOD ABUSE.

THEY TALK ABOUT HOW JONES PUSHED BACK AGAINST SEXISM AND RACISM TO BECOME THE ICON SHE IS TODAY.

>> GRACE JONES, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> IT'S GOOD TO HAVE YOU HERE.

AND I ACTUALLY WANTED TO START BY ASKING YOU, GIVEN THAT YOU HAVE SPENT YOUR LIFE IN SHOW BIZ, IN MODELING, IN FILM, YOU KNOW, ON STAGE, THIS HURRICANE OF REVELATIONS OF SEXUAL ABUSE, ESPECIALLY AGAINST YOUNG WOMEN COMING UP THROUGH THE SYSTEM, CAN YOU IDENTIFY WITH WHAT'S GOING ON NOW?

>> I TOTALLY IDENTIFY WITH IT BECAUSE IT HAPPENED TO ME.

WHEN I WAS GOING TO GET MY FIRST BIG PART -- AND IT WAS A SMALL PART BUT FOR ME IT WAS A BIG PART.

I ALREADY HAD THE PART.

OZZIE DAVIS, IT WAS HIS FIRST FILM HE WAS DIRECTING, AND THE PRODUCER CAME AND SAID TO MEET HIM AT HIS PLACE BECAUSE THAT WAS NOT THE LAST WORD.

OZZIE DIDN'T HAVE THE LAST WORD.

I HAD TO BRING MY PORTFOLIO TO HIM, AND WHEN I GOT TO HIS HOUSE AND I DON'T REMEMBER HIS NAME THANK GOD, AND HE POURED SOME CHAMPAGNE.

HE WAS IN HIS BATHROBE, AND OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, TOOK ME TO A ROOM, WHICH OF COURSE I DIDN'T KNOW HIS HOUSE, AND IT WAS HIS BEDROOM.

SO WITH THE CHAMPAGNE, EVEN THEN AT THAT YOUNG AGE I WAS I SPLASHED IT IN HIS FACE.

>> GOOD FOR YOU.

>> I THREW IT IN HIS FACE AND WALKED OUT THE DOOR.

>> AND THEY NEVER MESSED WITH FW GRACE JONES AGAIN.

>> I GOT FLOWERS THE NEXT DAY.

>> FROM THE SAME GUY?

>> SAME GUY.

>> IS IT A POWER THING?

OR A SEX THING?

WHAT IS IT?

>> IT IS A POWER THING.

IT IS A POWER THING BECAUSE THIS PERSON OBVIOUSLY CAN'T GET IT IN THE NORMAL ROUTE OR HE HAS NO PATIENCE.

I DON'T KNOW.

OR HE FEELS HE DOESN'T HAVE TO.

>> OR HE'S GOT CONTROL OVER A YOUNG GIRL'S FUTURE.

>> AND THAT FEELING OF I HAVE THE LAST WORD.

THAT'S WHAT REALLY UPSET ME.

I KNEW I HAD THE ROLE THROUGH OZZIE, BUT TO SAY TO ME, NO, I HAVE THE LAST WORD IS WHAT HE SAID.

AND YOU DON'T GET IT UNLESS YOU GO THROUGH ME.

>> AND YOU THREW THE CHAMPAGNE.

YOU GOT THE FLOWERS.

WHAT ABOUT OTHER YOUNG GIRLS WHO YOU'VE COME ACROSS, DO THEY -- OBVIOUSLY NOT MANY OF THEM HAVE THE SAME SET OF CAJONES OR TEMPERAMENT AS YOU.

>> ALL I CAN SAY, IT'S A REALLY DIFFICULT CALL BECAUSE WHEN YOU'RE IN THAT POSITION, YOU'RE SO VULNERABLE.

YOU'RE SO NERVOUS.

YOU WANT THIS BREAK SO BADLY BECAUSE YOU'VE BEEN BANGING AWAY AT THE PAVEMENT PROBABLY SOME LONGER THAN OTHERS.

AND YOU FINALLY THINK, I'VE MADE IT TO THE BIG TIME.

THIS IS MY WAY.

THE DOOR IS OPEN, AND NOW YOU HAVE A MONSTER TO CONFRONT.

>> HOW MUCH FUN WAS IT WHEN YOU WERE IN YOUR -- IN THE HEIGHT OF YOUR SINGER, DISCO, YOU KNOW, YOU OWNED THE STAGE AND YOU OWNED THAT WORLD AT THAT TIME.

>> WELL, I TOOK A LOT OF CHANCES.

I JUST DID WHAT I FELT LIKE DOING.

I WENT AGAINST -- IF SOMEONE SAID TO ME, GO RIGHT, I WENT LEFT BECAUSE LEFT FELT BETTER FOR ME.

GOING RIGHT FELT BETTER FOR THEM.

SO A LOT OF TIMES YOU ARE TOLD TO GO IN A CERTAIN DIRECTION AND THAT DIRECTION AND YOU'RE LOOKING UP TO THESE PEOPLE BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE ADVISING YOU, FOR EXAMPLE.

BUT A LOT OF TIMES THEY HAVE THEIR OWN AGENDAS, AND -- >> BEAUTIFUL PICTURE WE'RE WATCHING THERE.

>> -- YOU HAVE TO FOLLOW -- THANK YOU.

I JUST FOLLOWED MY OWN BECAUSE AT THE END OF THE DAY, I'M THE ONLY ONE I CAN HAVE REGRETS WITH.

>> IN YOUR MEMOIR, YOU BASICALLY DESCRIBE RACISM THAT YOU ENCOUNTERED AS A YOUNG MODEL, AND YOU CONFRONTED, YOU HAD A HEATED ROUT WITH THE LATEST CASABLANCA THE FOUNDER OF THE ELITE MODELING AGENCY.

WHAT WAS THE ROUT AND HAS THE SITUATION BEEN RESOLVED?

>> I KNEW THERE WAS CERTAIN PROGRAMS THAT WERE IN PLACE THAT I WAS SUPPOSED TO GO IN THREE DAYS, IN A WEEK, YOU KNOW, AND HAVE CERTAIN APPOINTMENTS, AND THERE WERE NONE.

THERE WERE JUST NONE, AND AFTER THREE DAYS, I KNEW SOMETHING WAS WRONG.

SO I JUST CONFRONTED HIM.

I SAID I KNOW I'M SUPPOSED TO HAVE APPOINTMENTS.

WHAT IS HAPPENING?

>> YOU MEAN SHOOTS AND THINGS?

>> EVEN JUST WHAT THEY CALLED GHOSTIES, JUST EVEN LETTING THE PHOTOGRAPHER SEE YOU AND LET HIM MAKE UP HIS OR HER MIND.

AND I NEVER EVEN GOT THOSE APPOINTMENTS, SO I KNEW SOMETHING WAS WRONG.

SO I JUST WALKED IN, AND I LEANED OVER THE DESK AND I SAID, I HAVE NO APPOINTMENTS.

WHAT IS GOING ON?

AND I ACTUALLY FORCED HIM TO TELL ME, AND BASICALLY, BEVERLY JOHNSON THEN WAS A HUGE MODEL IN AMERICA, AND SHE WAS WITH JOHNNY CASA CASABLANCA -- >> BLACK MODEL.

>> YES, YES.

AND I JUST -- HE SAID TO ME TRYING TO SELL A BLACK MODEL IN PARIS IS LIKE TRYING TO SELL AN OLD CAR NOBODY WANTS TO BUY.

I'LL NEVER FORGET HIS EXACT WORDS, QUOTE, UNQUOTE.

HE SAID NOT EVEN BEVERLY JOHNSON CAN WORK IN THIS TOWN.

I DID GO TO PARIS, AND I DID GO WITH AN AGENCY THAT ABSOLUTELY FORMED AN AGENCY WITH SWRJERRY HALL, MYSELF, AND ONE OTHER GIRL WHO I CAN'T REMEMBER HER NAME, AND WE STARTED AN AGENCY JUST WITH THE FOUR OF US, AND THEY LOVED US, AND THEY SENT US EVERYWHERE, HELMET NEWTON, YOU KNOW, EVERYBODY GOT REALLY EXCITED, CHRIS VON WAGON HALFTIME, AND THEN IT TOOK OFF LIKE THAT.

>> AND HOW LONG DID IT TAKE YOU TO GET OVER THE ABUSE THAT YOU SUFFERED IN YOUR OWN FAMILY?

YOU SAY YOU WERE CRUSHED, YOUR CHILDHOOD WAS CRUSHED WITH A BIBLE.

>> IT WAS JUST BEATINGS AND OVER ZEALOUS, I'M STILL NOT SURE IF IT WAS OVER RELIGIOUS ZEALOUSY OR WAS IT SADISTIC.

WHERE DO YOU DRAW THE LINE OF BEING OVER ZEALOUS OR ARE YOU JUST SADISTIC?

I PRETEND I'M OVER ZEALOUS IN READING THE BIBLE.

THAT MAKES THIS ONE OKAY.

SPOIL THE ROD, SPOIL THE CHILD IS WHAT WE WERE TOLD, YOU KNOW, EVERY DAY.

>> WHAT GIVES GRACE JONES JOY AS YOU EMBARK NOW INTO YOUR SEVENTH DECADE?

>> NOT YET.

>> NO, NO, NO.

>> STILL A BIT YET TO GO, BUT A FAMILY.

I FIND, YOU KNOW, MY MOM JUST PASSED, AND WE WERE BEST GIRLFRIENDS.

SHE WAS REALLY MY INSPIRATION.

>> AND NOW YOU ARE NOT JUST A MOTHER BUT A GRANDMOTHER.

>> YEAH, YEAH.

>> WHO WOULD HAVE THUNK.

>> SO SHE'S HERE.

I HAD TO BRING HER, I HAD TO BRING HER HERE.

BUT YOU KNOW, SHE'S NOT FAR AND IT'S WONDERFUL.

AND IN THE FILM, THERE IS A PART WHERE SHE'S BEING BORN IN THE FILM, AND I'M THERE FOR HER BIRTH, AND I JUST HAPPENED TO BE IN PARIS FOR HER BIRTH DOING SOMETHING ELSE, AND SHE CAME AND I RAN TO THE HOSPITAL, AND I SAID I'M NOT LEAVING UNTIL SHE OPENS HER EYES, AND THIS AMAZING, MAGICAL MOMENT IN THE MOVIE WHERE SHE ACTUALLY OPENS HER EYES.

ALL THE AUDIENCE ARE GOING WHOO, WOW, AMAZING.

AMAZING.

>> WELL, THAT'S A LOVELY LIFE ACH AFFIRMING NOTE TO END ON.

GRACE JONES, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH, CHRISTIANE, I LOVE YOU.

>> WE ALL LOVE BOTH OF THEM ACTUALLY.

>>> AND FINALLY, A MUSICAL TREAT OF A DIFFERENT KIND, JUST LIKE GRACE JONES, OUR NEXT GUEST ALSO KNOWS HOW IT FEELS TO SELL OUT CONCERT HALLS AROUND THE WORLD.

HERE'S A LITTLE TASTER.

♪ NICOLA BENEDETTI IS A PIONEERING AND MUCH LOVED VIOLINIST, SHE'S RETURNING TO HER NATIVE SCOTLAND AS THE FESTIVAL DIRECTOR FOR THE EDINBORO INTERNATIONAL FESTIVAL, SHE RECENTLY PLAYED FOR KING CHARLES AT HIS SCOTTISH CORONATION.

NICOLA BENEDETTI JOINS ME NOW FROM OUR STUDIO IN LONDON ALONGSIDE HER VIOLIN.

I WISH I WAS THERE TO MEET YOU IN PERSON, NICOLA, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US ON THIS SHOW.

YOU RECENTLY BEGAN YOUR TENURE AS DIRECTOR OF THE EDINBURGH INTERNATIONAL FESTIVAL.

IT BEGINS NEXT WEEK OFFICIALLY.

YOU ARE THE FIRST WOMAN, THE FIRST SCOT TO TAKE THIS JOB.

TALK ABOUT YOUR VISION FOR THIS NEW ROLE.

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

IT'S BEEN REALLY THE ROLE OF A LIFETIME FOR ME, AN OPPORTUNITY TO REALLY CONTRIBUTE TO THE WHOLE CULTURAL LANDSCAPE OF MY HOME COUNTRY, OF SCOTLAND.

FOR ME BEING A VIOLINIST AND A CLASSICAL MUSICIAN ROOTED IN THAT ART FORM, IT'S ABOUT PRESERVING THE SANCTITY AND THE BEAUTY OF THESE INCREDIBLE ART FORMS THAT HAVE TAKEN CENTURIES TO BUILD UP AND TO PRESERVE AND TO DEEPEN AND RICHEN, AT THE SAME TIME AS BEING ABSOLUTELY ABOUT COMMUNITIES FOR PEOPLE SPEAKING DIRECTLY TO PEOPLE LOOKING AT HOW WE CAN COMMUNICATE DIRECTLY OUR MESSAGE TO PEOPLE, AND WE'RE AN INTERNATIONAL FESTIVAL, SO WE DO 300 PERFORMANCES OVER THREE WEEKS, INVITE NEARLY 2,000 ARTISTS FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD, AND OUR MESSAGE REALLY IS ONE OF ABSOLUTE DIVERSITY, OF PERSPECTIVE AND DIVERSITY OF LIFE LIVED AND LOOKING AT THAT WHOLE SORT OF MYTHOLOGY JIEZING OF THE BROAD STORY OF HUMANITY, WHICH AS WE ALL KNOW CAN BE DONE SO WONDERFULLY AND FULLY THROUGH THE LANGUAGE OF THE ARTS.

>> I KNOW YOU'VE THEMED THE PROGRAM TO THE QUESTION OF WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE?

AND THE INDUSTRY, THE WHOLE WORLD, OBVIOUSLY, COMING BACK FROM THE PANDEMIC AND IT'S COMING AT A TIME WHEN THERE'S ECONOMIC HARDSHIPS.

I KNOW FACING THE MUSIC INDUSTRY AS WELL.

HOW MUCH OF AN IMPACT IS THIS ALL HAVING ON YOUR MESSAGE, AND DO YOU GET A SENSE THAT IT IS RESONATING THIS EARLY IN?

>> THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT IT'S RESONATING BECAUSE ARTISTS AND AUDIENCES ALIKE WANT TO FEEL THAT THEY ARE A PART OF SOMETHING THAT MAKES AN IMPACT ON PEOPLE'S LIVES.

THEY WANT TO FEEL THEY CAN PARTICIPATE IN A CONVERSATION, AND WE ALL NEED SOMETHING TO LOOK UP TO AND A COLLECTIVE DREAM, A COLLECTIVE HOPE, MUCH OF THE TERMINOLOGY AND SORT OF THEMING OF THIS YEAR'S FESTIVAL OF MY FIRST FESTIVAL WAS INSPIRED BY DR. MARTIN LUTHER KING'S FINAL BOOK "WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE: CHAOS OR COMMUNITY" AND I THINK IT'S SO POIGNANT IN THAT BOOK WHERE HE TALKS ABOUT AFTER SO MUCH SORT OF LEGISLATION AND PARTICULAR THINGS HAVE BEEN PUT INTO THE NATION, BUT WHAT ACTUALLY EXISTS INSIDE USM.

WHAT IS OUR INTERNAL AND MORE SUBTLE AND PERHAPS LESS EASY TO CONTROL OF DECISIONS THAT WE MAKE INSIDE OURSELVES, AND IT'S THAT COMPONENT OF WHAT MAKES US WHO WE ARE THAT, OF COURSE, THE ARTS DOES SPEAK TO.

AND I ALWAYS THINK IF THERE'S A MOMENT WHERE A PERSPECTIVE CAN BE SHIFTED OR CHANGED FOR THE BETTER, SURELY IT'S WITHIN AN ARTS FESTIVAL WHERE EVERYB PERSPECTIVE IS PORTRAYED.

>> YEAH SKAND YOU'RE AIMING FOR INCLUSIVITY.

THAT IS ADMIRABLE.

I'M CURIOUS HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT GOING ABOUT ATTRACTING A YOUNGER GENERATION TO SPECIFICALLY THIS GENRE OF MUSIC?

>> WELL, WE HAVE CLASSICAL MUSIC.

WE HAVE ALL SORTS OF MUSIC ACTUALLY, WE HAVE ABSOLUTELY CONTEMPORARY MUSIC, FOLK MUSIC, JAZZ MUSIC.

WE HAVE THEATER.

WE HAVE OPERA AND WE HAVE DANCE.

WE HAVE AN INCREDIBLY ECLECTIC PRESENTATION ACROSS ALL ART FORMS.

I THINK THAT IT'S ALWAYS A CHALLENGE WHEN YOU ARE STEADFAST IN THE CORE OF WHAT IT IS YOU WANT TO PRESENT.

SO CLASSICAL MUSIC AS AN EXAMPLE, HOW MUCH WOULD YOU HAVE TO ALTER THAT FOR IT TO COME ON THE STAGES OF GLASS TON BURY, FR EXAMPLE.

THIS ARTWORK IN ITSELF HAS A HISTORIC COMPONENT TO IT.

BUT IT'S OFTEN LONGER.

IT CAN OFTEN LAST 45 MINUTES OR AN HOUR.

THE MOST IMPORTANT FOR US TO DO IS SHIFT WITH THE TIMES IN TERMS OF ENVIRONMENT.

MAKE SURE PEOPLE FEEL ABSOLUTELY WELCOME AND THAT IT CAN BECOME THE RITUAL OF THE YOUNGER GENERATION THAT THEY CAN FEEL THAT THE WHOLE EXPERIENCE IS ABSOLUTELY FOR THEM AND THAT WE WANT THEM THERE, AND I'LL TELL YOU FOR CERTAIN, THE OLDER GENERATION THAT DO GO TO CLASSICAL MUSIC CONCERTS, THEY WANT TO INVITE AND WELCOME A MULTIGENERATIONAL FEEL WITHIN THE CONCERT HALLS.

>> WELL, YOU CERTAINLY ARE A WONDERFUL REPRESENTATIVE AND AMBASSADOR FOR PURSUING THIS MISSION.

HOW ARE YOU GOING TO BE BALANCING IT ALL AS DIRECTOR AND I WOULD ASSUME -- I HOPE YOUR FANS STILL HOPE YOU CONTINUE TO PERFORM AS WELL.

>> YEAH, IT'S WITHBEEN AN INTERESTING YEAR TO TRY TO BALANCE THESE THINGS, BEING ON TOUR A LOT, PERFORMING A LOT, WHICH TAKES AN IMMENSE AMOUNT OF CONCENTRATION AND IS A PRESSURED ENVIRONMENT AND JOB.

BUT THEY ARE ALL ENERGY GIVING AND ENERGY FEEDING.

I'M EXCITED, AS EXCITED Z AND ENTHUSED AND SORT OF OBSESSED WITH THE ROLE ARE THE INTERNATIONAL FESTIVAL IN EDINBURGH AS I AM WITH PLAYING THE VIOLIN.

IT'S ALL ABOUT HOW YOU FEEL TOWARDS THE THING THAT YOU'RE DOING, AND IF IT GIVES YOU THAT MUCH ENERGY, THERE'S ALWAYS A WAY TO WORK IT OUT, AND UNDERNEATH IT ALL, IT'S NOTHING SHORT OF A PRIVILEGE.

>> WELL, BEFORE YOU TAKE US OFF IN A BEAUTIFUL MELODY, DUET THERE WITH YOUR COLLEAGUE, I DO WANT TO GET YOU TO TALK ABOUT WHAT THE EXPERIENCE WAS FOR YOU, RECEIVED RAVE REVIEWS, YOUR PERFORMANCE AT KING CHARLES' SCOTTISH CORONATION.

YOU PLAYED FAREWELL TO STROMNUS, THAT A MUCH BELOVED SCOTTISH MELODY.

WHAT WAS THAT EXPERIENCE LIKE FOR YOU?

>> THE OCCASION IS JUST -- I MEAN, THERE'S NO WORDS FOR IT, JUST THE POIGNANCY AND THE METICULOUSNESS AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT TRADITION OF THE INTERNATIONAL FESTIVAL BEING 76 YEARS OLD.

THAT IS A TRADITION THAT GOES BACK SO -- I MEAN, HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF YEARS.

AND I ALWAYS THINK THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT THE CEREMONIAL ACT OF SOMETHING THAT IS LARGER THAN OUR INDIVIDUAL VIEWPOINTS, OUR INDIVIDUAL EXPERIENCES, SOMETHING THAT IS FOCUSED ON ME, ME, ME TO SOMETHING THAT IS FOCUSED ON A TRADITION THAT HAS LASTED A LONG TIME.

FOR ME I AM -- REALLY SAVOR BEING A PART OF SOMETHING CEREMONIAL OF THAT KIND.

>> WELL, BEST OF LUCK IN YOUR FUTURE ENDEAVORS, WHAT A PIONEER YOU REALLY ARE, AT SUCH AN EARLY STAGE STILL IN YOUR CAREER.

I KNOW YOU STARTED AS A YOUNG CHILD, BUT HERE YOU ARE AND YOU HAVE MANY, MANY MORE YEARS AHEAD OF YOU.

SO CONGRATULATIONS ON ALL OF YOUR SUCCESS THUS FAR.

BEST OF LUCK WITH YOUR FUTURE ENDEAVORS, AND I'D LIKE TO INVITE GEZA TO JOIN YOU NOW IN A DUET THAT YOU'LL PERFORM FOR US AS WE LEAVE THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

THANK YOU.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY CANDACE KING WEIR, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, MARK J. BLECHNER, SETON J. MELVIN, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

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