>> Announcer: DONNYBROOK IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE SUPPORT OF THE BETSY AND THOMAS PATTERSON FOUNDATION AND THE MEMBERS OF NINE PBS.

>> THANKS FOR JOINING US FOR THIS EDITION OF DONNYBROOK.

WE REALLY APPRECIATE YOU INVITING US INTO YOUR HOMES OR WHEREVER YOU ARE, AND WE HAVE A LOT TO TALK ABOUT ON THIS EDITION, BUT WE'RE ALSO GOING TO TALK TO CLAY DUNAGAN FROM THE ST. LOUIS PANDEMIC TASK FORCE AND THE CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER WITH BJC, WHO WILL JOIN WENDY AND BILL FOR NEXT UP ON THE SECOND HALF OF THIS PROGRAM.

THERE SHE IS, THE NEWS DIRECTOR FOR THE BIG 550 KTRS AND THE COHOST THE JENNIFER AND WENDY SHOW, WENDY WIESE.

ALONG WITH MR. BILL McCLELLAN FROM THE ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH.

HE'S RAY HARTMANN FROM RAWSTORY.COM, THE RIVERFRONT TIMES, AND THE BIG 550 KTRS, AND THE NEWS EDITOR FROM THE ST. LOUIS AMERICAN, MR. ALVIN REID.

WE'RE GOING TO START WITH YOU, RAY.

SINCE WE MET LAST WEEK, BOTH THE CITY AND THE COUNTY ANNOUNCED MASK MANDATES.

WE COULD PROBABLY PARCH THAT WORD, BUT AS OF 8:00 ON MONDAY MORNING, ALL INDIVIDUALS 5 AND OLDER ARE REQUIRED NOW TO WEAR A MASK INDOORS IN PUBLIC SPACES, AND SINCE THEN, THE ST. LOUIS COUNTY COUNCIL, IN A REAL DONNYBROOK, VOTED 5-2 ON TUESDAY NIGHT TO RESCIND THAT MANDATE.

WHAT WAS INTERESTING, THERE WERE TWO DEMOCRATS WHO SIDED WITH THE THREE REPUBLICANS AND ONE OF THOSE WHO ENDED UP NOT VOTING TO RESCIND, KELLI DUNAWAY, TOLD YOU ON YOUR PROGRAM THAT RITA HEARD DAYS AND SCHWANN DA WEBB ARE NOT REALLY DEMOCRATS.

IS THAT A FAIR CHARACTERIZATION OF WHAT SHE SAID?

>> IT IS.

I DON'T CONCUR WITH HER, BUT IT IS WHAT SHE SAID.

I WILL SAY THIS.

NONE OF US ENJOYS WEARING A MASK, BUT THIS WHOLE -- THIS IS REALLY A NATIONAL TRAVESTY WE HAVE THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THIS AS A HUMAN RIGHTS OR A FREEDOM ISSUE.

IT'S ABOUT CIVIC DUTY AND ABOUT UNDERSTANDING COMMON SENSE WITH REGARD TO OUR HEALTH, AND OF ALL THE THINGS WE DIFFER ON, THE IDEA THAT WE CAN'T COME TOGETHER TO TRY TO MINIMIZE THIS PANDEMIC BECAUSE YOU DO NOT HAVE A CIVIL RIGHT TO ENDANGER OTHER PEOPLE'S HEALTH.

YOU JUST DON'T, THERE'S NO BASIS FOR THAT.

I WOULD HAVE VOTED FOR THE MANDATE.

I THINK IT DOES SHOW THAT SAM PAGE, COUNTY EXECUTIVE, HAS -- I THINK HIS ARROGANCE, QUITE FRANKLY, IN DEALING WITH THE ST. LOUIS COUNTY COUNCIL IS SOMETHING HE'S PAYING A PRICE FOR NOW.

>> WELL, I WOULD SAY, RAY, ON THAT ONE, AS FAR AS RITA AND SHONWANDA ARE CONCERNED, YEAH, THEY THINK IT'S ARROGANT AND MAYBE SHOULDN'T HAVE DONE THAT, BUT THAT'S NO REASON TO VOTE AGAINST THE MASK REGULATION BECAUSE YOU HAVE A POLITICAL BEEF WITH SAM PAGE, AND I THINK THAT'S THE ONLY REASON THEY VOTED THAT WAY.

I THINK THAT'S SHALLOW REASONING.

YOU KNOW, QUITE FRANKLY, I DON'T KNOW IF I GIVE THUMBS UP OR THUMBS DOWN.

I PROBABLY WOULD HAVE DECIDED THAT AFTER THE, YOU KNOW, WHEN IT CAME TIME TO VOTE BECAUSE I'M STILL KIND OF TORN ON IT, BUT I THINK THEY WERE BEING DRIVEN NOT BY PROCEDURE, NOT BY THEY DON'T THINK THERE SHOULD BE A MASK MANDATE, BUT BY LET'S STICK TO IT SAM PAGE.

AND THAT'S JUST NOT REALLY A GOOD THING AT THIS TIME.

>> I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF GOOD ARGUMENTS TO BE MADE AGAINST THE MASK MANDATE.

I MEAN, IT'S COUNTERPRODUCTIVE.

IF YOU REALLY WANT TO GET PEOPLE TO GET VACCINATIONS, TELLING PEOPLE WHO ARE VACCINATED THAT NOW YOU HAVE TO START WEARING A MASK AGAIN, I THINK IT WOULD BE BETTER IF WE JUST HAD ALL THE RESTAURANTS, YOU KNOW, LIKE THE SMOKING BAN.

IF YOU WANT TO LET PEOPLE INTO YOUR RESTAURANT WITHOUT VACCINATION CARDS, FINE.

IF YOU WANT TO SAY YOU NEED A VACCINATION CARD TO GET IN HERE, FINE.

THAT WOULD BE A LOT MORE EFFECTIVE THAN A MASK MANDATE.

I'M NOT ENTHUSED ABOUT THAT.

>> WELL, AND LET THE EMPLOYERS ALSO TAKE MATTERS INTO THEIR OWN HANDS.

FACEBOOK HAS SAID, LOOK, IF YOU WANT TO WORK AT FACEBOOK, THAT'S GREAT, YOU CAN CRITICIZE FACEBOOK ON FACEBOOK, BUT YOU STILL HAVE TO HAVE A VACCINATION.

I AGREE WITH YOU.

I THINK THAT A MASK MANDATE JUST SENDS THE WRONG MESSAGE, AND IT PUNISHES PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN DOING EVERYTHING THAT THEY CAN TO MITIGATE COVID AND THE DELTA VARIANT AND WHATEVER COMES BEYOND IT, IN FAVOR OF PEOPLE WHO WILL NOT GET -- THEY'RE NOT GOING TO GET THE VACCINE, THEY'RE NOT GOING TO ABIDE BY THE MASK MANDATE, AND THEY'RE NOT GOING TO HELP ANYBODY OUT WHEN IT COMES TO HERD IMMUNITY.

>> I COMPLETELY DISAGREE WITH YOU GUYS ON THIS.

I TELL YOU, I DON'T THINK VACCINES AND MANDATES HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH ONE ANOTHER AND THE IDEA THAT PEOPLE ARE SAYING -- AND THIS IS ALL OVER THE COUNTRY.

PEOPLE ARE SAYING YOU TOLD ME IF I GOT THE VACCINE, I WOULDN'T HAVE THE MASK.

IT'S LIKE A 5-YEAR-OLD THAT YOU TELL AT HOME, IF YOU CLEAN YOUR ROOM, WE'RE GOING TO TED DREWS AND YOU LOOK OUTSIDE AND IT'S A TORNADO, AND NOW TRY TO EXPLAIN THAT THINGS HAVE CHANGED.

IN THIS CASE, THE TORNADO IS THE VARIANT.

SO THE IDEA THAT -- AND AS SOMEBODY WHO'S GOT VACCINATED, I DO NOT FEEL TAKEN NOW THAT I HAVE TO WEAR A MASK.

IT'S NO BIG DEAL.

>> BUT RAY, I WEAR A MASK WHEN I GO TO A STORE OUT OF COURTESY ON THE EMPLOYEES.

>> RIGHT.

>> I'M ALWAYS GOING TO WEAR A MASK.

>> THE IDEA BEHIND WHAT SAM PAGE IS GOING TO TELL ME THAT, YOU KNOW, I KNOW YOU'VE BEEN VACCINATED, BUT YOU HAVE TO WEAR A MASK AND THEN THE PEOPLE WHO AREN'T VACCINATED GO, WELL, THE VACCINES MUST NOT WORK WELL.

THAT'S NOT THE MESSAGE WE WANT.

WE WANT PEOPLE TO -- INTUT.

>> BUT WE -- >> YOU KNOW WHAT, RAY?

I THINK -- I DON'T THINK THEY'RE STICKING TO IT SAM PAGE, BUT BECAUSE SHALONDA WEBB IN A PRESS RELEASE SHE SENT OUT, SHE POINTED OUT SHE IS IN FAVOR OF THE MASKS, BUT IT'S THE PROCEDURE.

SHE DOESN'T WANT THE COUNTY EXECUTIVE TO -- >> THAT'S RIGHT, HE'S NOT A KING.

NOT A KING.

>> THAT'S WHAT I WAS SAYING.

>> AND WHEN IT WAS BROUGHT UP, THEY SAID SHE WOULD VOTE FOR IT ON ANOTHER OCCASION.

>> TIM FITCH HAS TOLD ME HE'D BE GO A MASK MANDATE, THEY DON'T LIKE THE PROCESS.

THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT THE ARROGANCE.

I DON'T AGREE WITH THEIR VOTE, BUT I UNDERSTAND IT BECAUSE IT WAS ABOUT THE PROCESS.

>> I WANT TO HEAR, THOUGH, SAM PAGE WHO ALSO CRITICIZED STEVE STENGER FOR THE EXACT SAME BEHAVIOR IS SO SICK, IT'S FUNNY.

>> WELL, THIS IS KIND OF LIKE, YOU KNOW, LET'S NOT -- I'M MAD AT THE PROCEDURE WE CAME UP WITH TO BUILD THE DAM, SO LET'S NOT BUILD THE DAM, AND WE AULT JUST GET FLOODED RIGHT ON AUOUT.

I MEAN, THAT'S NOSE SPITE FACE RIGHT THERE.

>> BY THE WAY, IT'S NOT A MANDATE, CHARLIE.

YOU REFERENCE THAT AND IT SHOULDN'T BE -- I KNOW ONE OF THE THINGS PEOPLE CONFUSE IT, ERIC SCHMITT JUMPED ON THE PILE WITH A LAWSUIT THAT I DON'T THINK WILL GO ANYWHERE, THERE'S A DISTINCTION BETWEEN A SHUTDOWN, AN ECONOMIC SHUTDOWN, WHICH I WOULD BE AGAINST, AND A MASK -- REALLY, IT'S A STRONG SUGGESTION.

IT'S NOT REALLY A MANDATE.

>> WELL, THAT'S WHAT'S GOING THAT YOU INTERESTING THAT YOU RAISE THAT BECAUSE THE COUNTY COUNCILOR TOLD MEMBERS OF THE COUNTY COUNCIL IN A CLOSED DOOR SESSION THAT SHE WOULD BE GOING AFTER INDIVIDUALS, BUT THE HEALTH DIRECTOR TOLD THE COUNTY COUNCIL THAT THEY WOULD GO AFTER BUSINESSES.

THEY DON'T REALLY -- I DON'T THINK THEY'RE GOING TO ENFORCE IT AT ALL TO BE HONEST WITH YOU.

>> I DON'T EITHER.

>> BECAUSE SOME MAYORS HAVE SAID THEY'RE NOT GOING TO ENFORCE IT AND OTHER MAYORS SAID WE DON'T ENFORCE THOSE RULES ANYWAY, IT'S ALWAYS THE HEALTH DEPARTMENT.

I'LL TELL YOU WHAT, MY WIFE WENT TO A CLUB TODAY.

HALF THE PEOPLE, INCLUDING EMPLOYEES, HAD MASKS ON, HALF DID NOT.

I THINK ST. LOUIS IS COMPLETELY CONFUSED, IN THE COUNTY ANYWAY, WHETHER THERE IS A MASK MANDATE, BUT BILL McCLELLAN, FAISAL KHAN, THE HEALTH DIRECTOR FOR THE CITY, APPEARED IN FRONT OF THE BOARD THIS PAST WEEK AND IT WAS A VERY LIVELY SESSION.

HE SPOKE TO THE COUNTY COUNCIL.

ON THE WAY OUT, HE DID FLIP THE BIRD, AN OBSCENE GESTURE, BUT THEN HE WROTE A LETTER CLAIMING THAT THE FIRST QUESTION TO HIM ASKING ABOUT HIS CREDENTIALS WAS A DOG WHISTLE.

HE CLAIMS THAT ON THE WAY OUT, HE WAS SHOULDER-BUMPED AND ASSAULTED, HIS WORDS.

HE MADE OTHER CLAIMS AS WELL.

DO YOU THINK THERE SHOULD BE ANY DISCIPLINE AGAINST HIM OR SHOULD THERE BE A POLICE REPORT ON THE INCIDENT?

SHOULD PEOPLE BE INVESTIGATED?

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> WELL, I DON'T KNOW.

I THINK THAT DR. KHAN WAS WRONG TO GIVE ANYBODY THE FINGER.

YOU KNOW, I THINK HE SHOULD HAVE A LITTLE MORE DECORUM ABOUT HIM, BUT I THOUGHT THAT TIM FITCH WAS WAY BEYOND THE PALE, AND I LIKE TIM AND I SPOKE AT HIS RETIREMENT DINNER, BUT WHEN HE ASKED DR. KHAN, YOU KNOW, CAN YOU TELL US WHY THEY CALL YOU DOCTOR, ARE YOU A LICENSED PHYSICIAN IN THE U.S.?

AND THEN LATER SAID, HE DOESN'T UNDERSTAND WHY -- WHERE DR. KHAN IS COMING FROM, SAYING THIS WAS A DOG WHISTLE.

I MEAN, TIM FITCH IS A SMART GUY AND HE KNOWS THE MAGA PEOPLE AND HE KNOWS HOW THEY RESPOND WHEN HE STARTS ASKING ABOUT ARE YOU A PHYSICIAN IN THE U.S.

HE KNOWS HE'S HOLDING UP DR. KHAN AS ONE OF THE "OTHERS," AND I THINK THAT WAS A WRONG THING TO DO.

IF YOU WANT TO BE AGAINST MASK MANDATES, FINE.

THERE'S GOOD REASONS FOR IT, BUT GOING AFTER ETHNICITY IS BEYOND THE PALE AND I WAS DISAPPOINTED IN TIM FITCH, WHO I GENERALLY LIKE.

>> YEAH, I THINK IT'S -- GO AHEAD, CHARLIE.

>> NO.

ON MY PROGRAM THIS MORNING, HE POINTED OUT THAT THERE WERE TIMES IN THE PAST WHEN THE ACTING DIRECTOR, SPRING SCHMITT, COULDN'T SIGN HEALTH ORDERS, AND INSTEAD, SHE HAD TO ALLOW EMILY DOUCHETTE OF THE HEALTH DEPARTMENT TO SIGN THEM BECAUSE SHE'S A MEDICAL DOCTOR.

FITCH WAS POINTING OUT AND JUST WONDERING WHAT THE CREDENTIALS WERE BECAUSE THE MOST RECENT HEALTH ORDER WAS SIGNED BY FAISAL KHAN.

>> IF TIM FITCH WANTED TO KNOW IF DR. KHAN CAN SIGN A MEDICAL ORDER, HE COULD ASK, DR. KHAN K YOU SIGN A MEDICAL ORDER?

THIS STUFF ABOUT, YOU KNOW, ARE YOU A LICENSED PHYSICIAN IN THE U.S., WHY DO WE CALL YOU DOCTOR, TO A MAGA CROWD, PEOPLE UNDERSTAND WHO THE MAGA CROWD IS AND WHAT THEY'RE ABOUT, AND I THINK THAT TIM FITCH IS BEING A LITTLE DISINGENUOUS SAYING THAT -- >> AGREED.

PRECISELY.

>> BY THE WAY, I'M FINE WITH DR. KHAN FLIPPING THEM OFF.

I THINK THE ABUSE HE WAS SUBJECT TO, I FEEL LIKE MY -- WE'RE HAVING A, WHETHER WE LIKE IT OR NOT, WE'RE SORT OF IN A KNIFE FIGHT RIGHT NOW POLITICALLY IN THIS COUNTRY AND MY SIDE HAS TO PUT DOWN THEIR SPATULAS.

I HAVE NO PROBLEM AT ALL WITH HIM FLIPPING THEM OFF.

ADMITTEDLY THAT, WILL BE WHAT MAKES NEWS, BUT I SAY GOOD FOR HIM.

I DON'T KNOW THE OTHER STUFF, BUT HE TOOK A BUNCH OF ABUSE AND I DON'T WANT TO BE HEARING ABOUT HOW THESE ARE TAXPAYERS THAT, THEY GET TO HEAP -- WITH MARK McCLOSKEY IN THE FRONT ROW, BLI.

>> ONCE AGAIN, IF AN UNRULY CROWD WAS COMING TO THE CITY COUNCIL MEETING, NOT TO BE VIOLENT, BUT TO BE UNRULY, AND THAT GROUP OF PEOPLE WERE NOT WHITE PEOPLE, THIS NEVER WOULD HAVE HAPPENED, OKAY?

BECAUSE THE PLACE WOULD HAVE JUST BEEN, LIKE, YOU KNOW, A SIEGE WITH POLICE OFFICERS.

>> TURNED OUT.

>> CALLED OUT.

AS SOON AS PEOPLE GOT ABUSE SIFR AND SHOUTING, THEY WOULD HAVE CLEARED THE GALLERY.

>> I DON'T THINK THAT'S TRUE.

>> I THINK SOMEBODY LIKE DR. KHAN -- >> I DISAGREE COMPLETELY.

IN 2015 THAT HAPPENED AGAIN AND AGAIN IN FERGUSON AND IN FRONT OF OTHER LEGISLATIVE BODIES IN THIS AREA AND AROUND THE COUNTRY -- >> I'M TALKING ABOUT THE COUNTY.

CHARLIE, I'M TALKING ABOUT THE ST. LOUIS COUNTY COUNCIL.

>> WELL, LET'S -- >> I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT FERGUSON AND I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT WHEREVER ELSE IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

I'M TALKING ABOUT THE STL COUNTY COUNCIL.

>> I WILL SAY THIS -- >> THAT'S ALL I'M SAYING.

>> THERE ARE SOME INCONSISTENCIES WITH MR. FAISAL KHAN'S STATEMENT.

HE CLAIMS HE WAS SHOULDER-BUMPED AND ASSAULTED IN THE AISLE ON HIS WAY OUT OF THE CHAMBER AND THE VIDEO ON CHANNEL 5 SHOWS THAT'S NOT THE CASE.

HE WAS ESCORTED BY A POLICE OFFICER.

I GUESS WE CAN ASK THE POLICE OFFICER IF HE WAS A VICTIM OF RACIAL EPITHETS.

HE CLAIMS TIM FITCH WAS A FRIEND OF MARK McCLOSKEY AND ACTUALLY, THEY HAD NO COMMUNICATION WHATEVER.

THAT'S THE OTHER THING.

THE EARLY REPORTS, THERE WAS CHANNEL 42, CHANNEL 2, CHANNEL 5, THE POST-DISPATCH, KMOX, NONE OF THEM REPORTED THE RACIAL EPITHETS OR THE ASSAULT.

EVEN RITA HEARD DAYS OR KELLI DUNAWAY, THEY NEVER REPORTED ABOUT ANY RACIAL EPITHETS OR MAKING FUN OF DR. KHAN BECAUSE HE RESEMBLED A SIMPSONS CHARACTER OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

NONE OF THAT CAME OUT UNTIL THIS LETTER.

>> I HOPE HE DOESN'T LOSE HIS JOB OVER THIS, BUT I HATE TO SEE SOMEBODY, AND EVEN THOUGH HE IS NOT AN ELECTED OFFICIAL, HE IS A MAN OF SCIENCE, HE IS A MAN OF LETTERS, AND I THINK THAT MEN AND WOMEN LIKE THAT COMMAND A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF RESPECT.

AND I HATE TO SEE HIM LOWER HIMSELF INTO THE MUD IN A SETTING LIKE THAT.

>> I GET THAT BUT -- >> IF YOU LOOK AT THE TRANSCRIPT, LISTEN TO THE TAPE, YOU'LL NOTICE THAT THE CHAIR RITA HEARD DAYS DID TELL THE AUDIENCE TO BE RESPECTFUL, BUT HER HARSHEST LANGUAGE WAS FOR HIM.

>> I WASN'T AT THE MEETING.

I'M NOT REALLY INTERESTED IN SEEING -- >> IT'S ALL POSTED ONLINE.

>> I GET IT.

SOMEHOW, I CAN'T BELIEVE THAT HE JUST MADE IT ALL UP.

IT'S POSSIBLE, BUT I DOUBT THAT HE MADE UP THAT HE WAS SUBJECTED TO SLURS.

>> WELL, THERE ARE CAMERAS IN THE GOVERNMENT CENTER AND THERE'S ALSO A POLICE -- THERE ARE PROBABLY IT A POLICE OFFICERS THERE, INCLUDING -- >> I DON'T THINK IT'S REALLY -- >> AND WHEN HE QUITS AND MOVES TO ANOTHER STATE, CHI GUARANTEE A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE DOING IN TH THIS GREAT SHOW-ME PLACE HERE, WHAT HE'LL TELL PEOPLE IS THAT, YOU KNOW WHAT?

INSTEAD OF PEOPLE ACTUALLY DEFENDING ME, THEY TRIED TO FIGURE OUT A WAY THAT I WAS LYING.

FOR THIS GROUP OF PEOPLE, FOR THAT GROUP OF PEOPLE.

>> WELL, DID YOUR NEWSPAPER REPORT IT?

>> FOR THAT GROUP OF PEOPLE, YOU'RE LYING, THERE IS NO WAY THAT THOSE GOD-FEARING GOOD OL' GUY AND GAL AMERICANS WOULD EVER DO ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

HE MUST BE LYING!

I MEAN, IT'S JUST -- >> IT WAS THE MAGA CROWD.

>> JUST SO ST. LOUIS.

>> THE VIDEO IS -- >> WHY WASN'T IT REPORTED TILL THE LETTER CAME OUT IF THE PLACE WAS FULL OF MEDIA.

>> I DON'T KNOW, YOU TELL ME.

THERE ARE LOTS OF THINGS THAT DON'T GET REPORTED IN ST. LOUIS WHEN IT COMES TIME TO -- >> DOES ANYONE ON THIS FAMILIAR FIND IT THE MOST UNUSUAL THAT MARK McCLOSKEY WAS IN THE FRONT ROW OR THE SECOND ROW.

>> NO, I DON'T, I DON'T.

>> AND THAT WASN'T EVEN REPORTED BY THE NEWS MEDIA UNTIL IT WAS POINTED OUT -- >> IF THEY DON'T REPORT THAT, WHY WOULD THEY REPORT THE OTHER STUFF.

HERE'S THE DEAL, CHARLIE.

THE NEWS -- I DON'T REALLY -- TO ME, THIS STORY IS KIND OF OVER.

I THINK IT PLAYED ITSELF OUT.

FAISAL KHAN MADE THE STATEMENT THAT I THINK WAS IN HIS OWN WAY -- I KNOW IT'S NOT PERCEIVED ON THIS PANEL HERE, AS HIS OWN ELEGANT ANSWER TO THEM, WHICH IS TO GIVE THEM THE -- FLIP THEM THE BIRD.

I DON'T THINK HE MADE IT UP.

I WILL SAY THIS ABOUT HIM.

HE WAS HERE BEFORE AND HE WAS THE FIRST GUY THAT, AS A HEALTH DIRECTOR, WHO REALLY MADE SENSE ABOUT WEST LAKE AND ABOUT COLD WATER CREEK AND DID SOME THINGS THAT MADE SENSE IN TERMS OF WHAT -- HOW HE REACTED TO IT, AND SO I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE REALLY SAD WHEN -- AND I THINK HE WILL END UP PACKING HIS BAGS HERE FOR THE REASONS ALVIN SAID, AND I THINK THAT WE DON'T NEED TO SPEND MONEY ON AN INVESTIGATION AND CRIMINAL THIS AND CRIMINAL THAT.

I THINK THE STORY IS OVER.

HE FLIPPED THEM OFF.

LET PEOPLE DECIDE WHAT THEY WANT.

>> SO NOW, OKAY, SO NOW IT'S -- [ ALL SPEAKING AT ONCE ] >> AND THIS IS HAPPENING EVERYWHERE.

AND, YOU KNOW, FORTUNATELY OR UNFORTUNATELY, IT'S NOT JUST A ST. LOUIS THING.

BUT RAY, I THINK YOU HAVE TO HAVE A LITTLE BIT DIGNITY WHEN YOU'RE A HEALTH DIRECTOR AND THE IDEA OF FLIPPING PEOPLE OFF, HA, HA -- >> OKAY, LET'S MOVE ON.

SO NEW MICHAEL NEIDORFF AND FAISAL KHAN WHO MIGHT BE MOVING OUT OF TOWN.

ALVIN REID, JAY NIXON, THE FORMER GOVERNOR AND A PERSON WHO HAS SHOWN THE ABILITY TO WIN STATEWIDE, HAS ANNOUNCED THAT HE'S NOT GOING TO RUN FOR THE SENATE SEAT GIVEN UP BY OUR SENIOR SENATOR ROY BLUNT.

HOW ABOUT SOME PROKNOWS TI INDICATION AND WHERE IS THE RACE RIGHT NOW?

>> I'VE SEEN THE FORMER GOVERNOR A COUPLE TIMES OVER THE PAST YEAR, AND HE LOOKS LIKE A DIFFERENT GUY.

I MEAN, NOT THAT HE LOOKS UNHEALTHY DURING HIS POLITICAL DAYS, BUT HE REALLY LOOKS -- I JUST HAVE TO SAY, BETTER.

SO WHAT HE SAID, YOU KNOW, IN THE STATEMENT ABOUT, YOU KNOW, I'M REALLY HEALTHY AND I'M REALLY LIKING MY LIFE RIGHT NOW, I THINK HE'S TELLING THE TRUTH.

NOW, WHERE WE GO FROM HERE, DEMOCRATICALLY, I DON'T KNOW.

I DON'T KNOW WHO STEPS UP AND MAYBE WANTS TO RUN, BUT SOMEBODY WILL.

AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, DEPENDING ON WHO GETS THE REPUBLICAN NOMINATION, THAT SOMEBODY COULD HAVE A REAL CHANCE TO WIN.

>> I THINK THAT -- I THINK HE'S SMART ENOUGH TO SEE THAT RIGHT NOW, THE PROCESS, THE POLITICAL PROCESS IS PRETTY UNAPPETIZING FOR SOMEBODY WHO CAME ALONG WHEN HE CAME ALONG.

I THINK HE STILL HAS POLITICAL ASPIRATIONS AND HE'S GOING TO WAIT AND SEE HOW THE MIDTERM AND THE GENERAL, THE NEXT COUPLE OF RACES SHAKE OUT.

I DON'T THINK WE'VE SEEN THE LAST OF JAY NIXON.

>> I ACTUALLY THINK WE MAY HAVE, BUT WHO KNOWSES WHAT'S IN HIS HEAD?

I WILL SAY THIS.

CNN HAS MISSOURI, BELIEVE IT OR NOT, AS -- THIS IS JUST ONE ASSESSMENT, BUT THE TENTH -- RANKING TENTH IN BEING A STATE THAT WOULD CHANGE HANDS.

I KNOW WE ALL KIND OF COME TO SEE NOW, AS PURE RED BECAUSE THE LAST TWO CYCLES, ALTHOUGH AS RECENTLY AS 2014, ALL BUT ONE OF THE STATEWIDE CANDIDATES WHO'S AN OFFICE HOLDER WAS A DEMOCRAT.

I THINK THAT THE KEY TO THE DEMOCRATS RIGHT NOW IS THAT THE REPUBLICANS ARE IN DANGER FROM THEIR PERSPECTIVE OF HAVING A VERY, VERY WEAK CANDIDATE, AND RIGHT NOW, I GUESS GREITENS IS STILL THE FAVORITE.

HE WOULD BE A VERY, VERY WEAK CANDIDATE, VERY BEATABLE.

I KEEP TALKING ABOUT THIS GUY LUCAS -- >> I THOUGHT IT WAS -- >> LUCAS TRUTH, THE WAY I'VE BEEN WRITING ABOUT, RAISED 600 GRAND IN THE SECOND QUARTER.

HE IS NOT TO BE UNDERSTIPULATED.

IF YOU LOOK AT HIS TWITTER, EVERY DAY HE'S HAMMERING AWAY -- ADMITTEDLY, HE'S A BIT PROGRESSIVE, BUT HE'S GOT THE MILITARY BACKGROUND AND THE INTELLIGENCE BACKGROUND.

THE GUY IS NOT TO BE UNDERESTIMATED.

>> VERY WELL.

>> I DON'T CARE WHAT CNN SAYS.

THIS IS A DONALD TRUMP STATE.

AND IF DONALD TRUMP ENDORSES -- WHOEVER DONALD TRUMP ENDORSES IN THE PRIMARY IS GOING TO BE THE REPUBLICAN NOMINEE AND I'M AFRAID WILL BE THE NEXT SENATOR.

>> WENDY WIESE, I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT VOTERS IN THE ST. LOUIS COMMUNITY COLLEGE DISTRICT WHO ARE BEING ASKED TO INCREASE THEIR TAXES NEXT WEEK, EVEN THOUGH THE COLLEGE HAS A DECLINING ENROLLMENT, DOWN 35%, AND YET WE KNOW EDUCATION IS THE KEY TO SUCCESS.

IF YOU WANT PEOPLE TO SUCCEED, THEY NEED TO GET EDUCATED, SO WHERE ARE YOU GOING TO STAND ON THIS TAX INCREASE?

>> WELL, I THINK AFTER READING TOM SULLIVAN, THE CASE THAT HE MADE, THE TAXPAYER WATCHDOG, HIS CASE AGAINST THE 40% PROPERTY TAX INCREASE, I WOULDN'T WANT HIM EVER COMING OUT AGAINST SOMETHING I SUPPORTED BECAUSE HE MADE HIS CASE IN A VERY SHARP WAY.

A 40% PROPERTY TAX INCREASE, AS YOU SAID, CHARLIE, WHILE ENROLLMENT IS DECLINING 35% IN RECENT YEARS, AND 19% OF PEOPLE ARE HAVING TROUBLE PAYING THEIR MORTGAGE, ESPECIALLY IN LIGHT OF THE FACT THAT ONE OF THE PRESIDENT'S TOP FOCUSES OR ONE OF HIS TOP AREAS, HIS PRIORITIES, IS A FREE COMMUNITY COLLEGE, YOU KNOW, A GIFT TO THE STUDENTS OF AMERICA.

SO THAT WOULD BE A WINDFALL.

I JUST DON'T SEE THAT THAT'S THE -- AND ESPECIALLY BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE TO SAY ANYTHING ABOUT HOW THE MONEY IS GOING TO BE SPENT.

SO I AGREE WITH MR. SULLIVAN, AND I WOULD VOTE AGAINST IT.

>> I WOULD PROBABLY VOTE YES AND THAT'S ONLY BECAUSE WENDY'S HOUSE IS PROBABLY THREE TIMES AS LARGE AS MINE IS, SO MY PERCENTAGE WOULD PROBABLY BE LESS.

BUT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE'RE HEARING FROM UNIONS AND BUSINESSES AND UNIVERSITIES ARE THAT OUR WORKFORCE IS NOT EDUCATED ENOUGH AND IF WE'RE GOING TO START GETTING THERE, THE KEY IS TO GET PEOPLE INTO JUNIOR COLLEGE.

YOU KNOW, THEY CAN'T AFFORD TO GO TO LIKE -- IMMEDIATELY TO A FOUR-YEAR COLLEGE, SO I THINK IT'S ONE OF THE STEPS IN TRYING TO, YOU KNOW, IMPROVE OUR REGION AND ALSO KEEP IN MIND THAT THIS ALSO INCLUDES JEFFERSON COUNTY COMMUNITY COLLEGE AND THE ONE IN -- >> JEFFERSON AND FRANKLIN, I THINK.

>> AND FRANKLIN, TOO, SO THIS IS A REGION-WIDE KIND OF DEAL FOR THOSE THAT THINK WE'RE JUST GIVING FREE COLLEGE TO THOSE FOLKS UP THERE IN NORTH COUNTY.

AND SO IT'S REGION-WIDE AND I THINK I WOULD HAVE TO SAY YES.

>> ME TOO.

WOULDN'T IT BE GREAT TO HAVE A TERRIFIC COMMUNITY COLLEGE SYSTEM?

I MEAN, TOM SULLIVAN IS AGAINST ALL THESE THINGS, AND SOMETIMES HE'S RIGHT, BUT ON THIS ONE, IT'S HARD FOR ME TO EVER VOTE AGAINST EDUCATION.

>> WELL, I'M WITH YOU AND I THINK ALVIN REALLY STATED THE CASE FOR IT WELL.

I HAD TOM SULLIVAN ON MY SHOW AND I'LL SAY THIS.

HIS ARGUMENTS AGAINST IT ARE REALLY GOOD ARGUMENTS, PARTICULARLY ABOUT THE TIMING OF IT WITH REGARD TO THE PANDEMIC AND HOW THAT'S HIT PEOPLE OR REAL ESTATE PROPERTY TAX.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, I'M A LOT LESS OF AN ENTHUSIASTIC YES THAN I NORMALLY AM ON TAXES, BUT I THINK IT'S -- ALVIN'S POINT ABOUT THE REGIONAL SOLUTION AND THE FACT THAT, YOU KNOW, TO WENDY'S POINT, WE CAN'T REALLY WAIT TO SEE WHETHER THAT COMMUNITY COLLEGE THING IS GOING TO HAPPEN.

>> VERY GOOD POINTS, EVERYONE.

>> SO I'D BE FOR IT.

>> I WILL SAY, LIKE MANY OF YOU WHO HAVE TRAVELED AROUND FROM HIGH SCHOOL TO HIGH SCHOOL TO SEE HIGH SCHOOL SPORTS WITH YOUR KIDS, YOU DO NOTICE THAT SOME HIGH SCHOOLS ARE IN MUCH BETTER SHAPE THAN OUR COMMUNITY COLLEGES.

I'VE NOTICED THAT.

HEY, I DO WANT TO SAY THIS, BILL McCLELLAN.

WE HAD ANOTHER DISTURBANCE IN THE FORCE AT THE DOWNTOWN CJC, THE JAIL, AND TURNS OUT OFFICIALS ARE TELLING THE MAN WHO HEADS UP THE ALDERMANIC SAFETY COMMITTEE, THAT THE LOCKS WILL NOT BE REPAIRED UNTIL THE MIDDLE OF NEXT YEAR.

THAT'S 18 MONTHS AWAY.

MEANWHILE, A REPORT IN YOUR TOUCHDOWN, THE DETAINEES ARE GOING HOURS AWAY BECAUSE THERE ISN'T ENOUGH ROOM FOR THE FEDERAL DETAINEES.

THEY'RE BEING SENT TO KENTUCKY AND INDIANA AND THEIR FAMILIES AND LAWYERS CAN'T ACCESS THEM.

I THINK AN OUTSIDE CONSULTANT SHOULD COME IN, BUT YOU TALKED TO THE SHERIFF THIS WEEK, DIDN'T YOU?

>> YEAH, I RAN INTO SHERIFF BETS TS AND HE MADE A COUPLE OF REALLY GOOD POINTS.

HE SAID EVERYWHERE ELSE IN THE AMERICA, THE SHERIFFS ARE IN CHARGE OF THE JAILS, BUT NOT HERE.

WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE GENERAL SITUATION AND HE SAID HE THINKS WE SHOULD HAVE KEPT THE WORKHOUSE OPEN AND USED IT JUST TO HOUSE FEDERAL PRISONERS.

THAT WAY THE CITY WOULD BE GETTING MONEY FROM THE FEDS AND THESE PRISONERS WOULDN'T BE GOING TO INDIANA AND KENTUCKY, AND THEIR FAMILIES CAN'T SEE THEM OFTEN AND THEIR LAWYERS HAVE A HARD TIME SEEING THEM.

AND IT WOULD MAKE MORE SENSE FOR THEM TO BE AT THE WORKHOUSE.

I THOUGHT, WHAT A GOOD POINT.

>> CHARLIE, MY BIGGEST PROBLEM MAYBE WITH THE CONSULTANT IS, ONE, YOU KNOW, I'M KIND OF HESITANT ON THE WHOLE CONSULTANT THING, BUT I THINK LO AND BEHOLD THEY COME BACK AND SAY, YOU KNOW WHAT YOU NEED TO DO?

YOU NEED TO PRIVATIZE YOUR JAIL AND THAT'S REALLY FRIGHTENING TO ME, AND I THINK THAT'S PROBABLY WHAT THEY'D COME UP WITH.

>> BUT YOU KNOW WHAT, ALVIN?

I THINK THAT FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE, AND YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, PRIVATIZATION HAS BECOME A LOT -- YOU KNOW, MUCH LESS OF AN TERRIFYING IDEA WHEN WE SEE WHAT WE'RE SEEING NOW AT THE JUSTICE CENTER AND WITH THE CLOSING OF THE WORKHOUSE AND THIS DISPERSAL OF PRISONERS.

I MEAN, BUT WHEN YOU SAY CONSULTANT, WE ALL THINK OF ALVAREZ AND MARCEL AND WE DON'T WANT TO GO DOWN THAT ROAD AGAIN.

>> I THINK PRIVATIZATION OF PRISON IS A TERRIBLE IDEA, ALTHOUGH WITH THE EXCEPTION OF YOUR ALVAREZ -- >> THAT WAS TERRORIZING.

>> I SUPPORTED THAT IN THE BEGINNING.

>> I LIKE THAT REFERENCE.

>> WELL, I THINK SOMETHING HAS TO BE DONE WHEN YOU'VE GOT CORRECTIONS OFFICERS IN KA HOOTS WITH INMATES, PREYING ON OTHER INMATES, WHEN YOU HAVE INMATES SLEEPING ON THE FLOOR, WHEN YOU HAVE THE DETAINEES, LIKE I SAID, IN KENTUCKY AND WE ALSO HAVE LOCKS THAT DON'T WORK AND THEY'RE NOT GOING TO WORK FOR 18 MONTHS.

I MEAN, THAT'S A MAJOR ISSUE.

>> WHY NOT HAVE THE SHERIFF IN CHARGE?

AT LEAST THEN THERE'S SOMEBODY IN CHARGE.

I MEAN, RIGHT NOW, UNDER THE DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY, AND, YOU KNOW, THE SHERIFF IS AN ELECTED OFFICIAL.

PUT THE SHERIFF IN CHARGE OF THE JAIL.

I THOUGHT HE MADE SENSE.

>> WELL, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR GIVING US THAT INSIGHT.

TO ALL OF YOU, APPRECIATE IT VERY MUCH.

BILL DON'T GO AWAY.

YOU AND WENDY ARE GOING TO TALK TO CLAY DUNAGAN FROM THE ST. LOUIS PANDEMIC TASK FORCE AND THE CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER AT BJC WHO WILL JOIN YOU ON NEXT UP.

THE REST OF US WILL SEE EVERYBODY NEXT WEEK AT THIS TIME.

THANKS, EVERYONE.

>> Announcer: DONNYBROOK IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE SUPPORT OF THE BETSY AND THOMAS PATTERSON FOUNDATION AND THE MEMBERS OF NINE PBS.

>> AND WE WELCOME YOU TO DONNYBROOK NEXT UP.

BILL McCLELLAN AND I ARE SO HAPPY TO WELCOME TONIGHT TO THE PROGRAM THE ACTING HEAD OF THE ST. LOUIS METROPOLITAN PANDEMIC TASK FORCE AND THE CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER FOR THE BJC HEALTH SYSTEM, DR. CLAY DUNAGAN.

WELCOME, DOCTOR.

>> WENDY WIESE, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

HAPPY TO BE HERE.

>> WELL, THE DELTA VARIANT AND THE NEWS ASSOCIATED WITH THE DELTA VARIANT HAS PROBABLY ALREADY CHANGED SINCE OUR INTRODUCTION OF YOU FIVE SECONDS AGO.

WHERE ARE WE TODAY, THIS AFTERNOON, THURSDAY, JULY 29th, IN YOUR OPINION?

>> WELL, WE'RE ON A PRETTY STEEP GROWTH CURVE IN TERMS OF CASES IN THE REGION AND THAT CORRESPONDS WITH PRETTY RAPID GROWTH IN THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WE HAVE HOSPITALIZED AND IN OUR ICUs.

WE'RE ROUGHLY A THIRD OF THE WAY BACK UP TO WHERE WE WERE AT OUR PEAK OVER THE HOLIDAY SEASON, AND WE'RE REALLY NOT SEEING ANY SIGNS YET OF A BLUNTING OF THIS RISE.

SO I SUSPECT IN FOUR WEEKS, FOUR OR FIVE WEEKS, WE'LL BE BACK UP TO THE SAME LEVELS WE SAW IN NOVEMBER, DECEMBER.

>> DOCTOR, LET ME ASK YOU A GRANDPARENT QUESTION.

MY WIFE AND I ARE BOTH VACCINATED, LONG -- YOU KNOW, EARLY VACCINATION, AND WE HAVE GRAND KIDS THAT WE SEE ALL THE TIME, 10 AND 6.

THEY'RE TOO YOUNG TO BE VACCINATED, AND I HEAR ALL SO E SORTS OF DIFFERENT THINGS ABOUT, YOU COULD INFECT THE CHILDREN EVEN THOUGH YOU'RE VACCINATED OR THEY COULD GET IT AND INFECT YOU.

WE'VE ALREADY FLOWN TO ORLANDO, FLORIDA, TO GO TO DISNEY WORLD AND EVERYTHING BEFORE THE DELTA THING SPRUNG UP.

AM I SUPPOSED TO CHANGE MY BEHAVIOR NOW, VIS-A-VIS MY GRANDKIDS ARE WHO ARE GOING TO SCHOOL SOON?

>> THAT'S A REALLY TOUGH QUESTION.

IT IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE THAT YOU COULD GET THE DISEASE AND PASS IT ON TO THEM.

WE'RE SEEING MORE BREAKTHROUGH CASES WITH DELTA THAN WE SAW WITH THE PRECEDING VARIANT AND RIGHT NOW I THINK IN ST. LOUIS COUNTY, TALKING TO THE PUBLIC HEALTH DEPARTMENT THERE, THEY'RE SEEING 16, 17, 18% OF CASES ARE BREAKTHROUGH CASES.

SO IT'S CERTAINLY POSSIBLE TO CATCH IT.

THE INDIVIDUALS WHO HAVE BEEN VACCINATED WHO GET COVID, ACTIVE CASES, TYPICALLY AREN'T AS SICK, AND I DON'T WANT TO SEE ANYONE GET INFECTED, BUT I THINK THE RISK TO KIDS IS STILL RELATIVELY LOW.

WE'VE SEEN HIGHER HOSPITALIZATION RATES WITH THIS VARIANT THAN WE SAW PREVIOUSLY FOR PEDIATRIC PATIENTS AND WE'RE SEEING MORE SPREAD IN KIDS, BUT I THINK THERE'S STILL A RELATIVELY LESS RISK THAN THE REST OF THE POPULATION.

>> DOCTOR, WOULD YOU MIND EXPLAINING IN LAYMAN'S TERMS, FOR OUR VIEWERS, AND FOR THE YOUR TWO COLLEAGUES HERE TODAY, WHAT EXACTLY IS BREAKTHROUGH?

WE HEAR IT ALL THE TIME.

I THINK SOME PEOPLE ARE A LITTLE MISINFORMED WHEN IT COMES TO BREAKTHROUGH.

>> SURE.

SO FIRST OF ALL, JUST BACKING UP ONE STEP ABOUT WHAT THE VACCINE DOES.

SO THIS VACCINE -- THESE VACCINES WERE DESIGNED TO KEEP PEOPLE FROM GETTING SIGNIFICANTLY ILL, WINDING UP IN THE HOSPITAL, AND DYING.

THEY WEREN'T REALLY DESIGNED TO PREVENT INFECTION, AND WITHOUT GOING INTO THE SCIENCE OF IT, IT'S NOT COMPLETELY SURPRISING.

THAT THEY HAVE BEEN SO EFFECTIVE AT PREVENTING INFECTIONS HAS A REALLY NOTEWORTHY THING THAT MANY OF US WERE VERY HAPPY ABOUT, BUT THE TRUTH IS THERE ARE ALWAYS GOING TO BE INFECTIONS.

WHAT WE'VE TAKEN TO SAYING IS THAT IF SOMEONE HAS BEEN VACCINATED, BUT STILL GETS INFECTED, WE'RE CALLING THAT A BREAKTHROUGH CASE.

THEY'RE BREAKING THROUGH THE VACCINATION.

>> DOCTOR, WHAT ABOUT THE MASK MANDATES THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT?

I JUST HAVE A SENSE WE'RE GOING TO GET PUSHBACK FROM BOTH DIRECTIONS SUDDENLY.

I MEAN, THERE'S THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN AGAINST IT ALL ALONG AND DON'T WANT TO WEAR MASKS AND AGAINST THE VACCINATIONS, AND YOU GOT PEOPLE LIKE ME WHO ARE SAYING, YOU KNOW, I'M TIRED OF GOING THROUGH THIS FOR THOSE PEOPLE.

IF THEY DON'T WANT TO WEAR A MASK, THEY DON'T VACCINATION, FINE, BUT I DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO KEEP MASKING UP.

HOW ARE YOU GOING TO TRY TO SELL THIS IDEA TO PEOPLE LIKE ME WHO ARE JUST TIRED OF IT?

>> YEAH, WE'RE ALL TIRED OF IT.

I'M CERTAINLY TIRED OF IT.

I LIKE TO PUT MY MASK AWAY FOR GOOD.

THERE'S A COUPLE OF PARTS TO THAT.

SO FIRST OF ALL, IN THE CURRENT SURGE WE'RE IN, WE ARE -- WE'RE NOT ADEQUATELY IMMUNIZED.

WE HAVEN'T HAD ENOUGH PEOPLE WHO HAVE EITHER GOTTEN SICK OR BEEN VACCINATED TO STAVE OFF ANOTHER WAVE, SO WE'RE GOING TO SEE A BIG WAVE OF INFECTIONS.

EVEN IF EVERYBODY WHO'S UNVACCINATED WENT OUT TOMORROW AND SAID, OKAY, I'M READY, I'M GOING TO GET VACCINATED, WE'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO DO ANYTHING IN TIME TO MITIGATE THIS UPCOMING WAVE OF DISEASE.

MASKING IS REALLY THE ONLY THING WE CAN DO TO BLUNT IT AND WE BOTH WANT TO BLUNT IT BECAUSE WE DON'T WANT PEOPLE WHO ARE POTENTIALLY SUSCEPTIBLE TO GET INFECTED AND DIE, BUT WE ALSO WANT TO BLUNT IT BECAUSE WE'RE REALLY MAXED OUT IN TERMS OF HEALTH SYSTEM CAPACITY RIGHT NOW.

WE'RE SCRAMBLING TO CATCH UP FOR CARE WE DIDN'T DELIVER IN 2020 AND WE WERE PRETTY FULL BEFORE COVID STARTED.

WITH A WAVE LIKE WE HAD IN DECEMBER, WE'LL HAVE TO START FOREGOING HEALTHCARE NEEDS THAT MIGHT BE POSTPONED AND WILL ALSO PUT PRESSURE FOR MORE EMERGENT CARE BECAUSE WE'LL JUST HAVE EMERGENCY ROOMS THAT ARE OVERCROWDED AND FLOORS THAT ARE FILLED UP WITH PATIENTS.

SO WE'VE GOT BOTH THE PERSONAL ISSUE ABOUT PROTECTING THE INDIVIDUALS WHO MIGHT BE VULNERABLE, AS WELL AS THE ISSUE OF KEEPING THE HEALTH SYSTEM FUNCTIONING NORMALLY.

>> IS IT TRUE, DOCTOR, THAT EVEN THOUGH WE HAVE HAD THE VACCINE, WHICH AS YOU POINT OUT, IT'S NOT -- IT ISN'T A CURE.

IT JUST -- IT'S NOT -- IT DOESN'T MEAN WE'RE NOT A CARRIER.

WE CAN STILL CARRY THE DELTA VARIANT TO SOMEONE EVEN IF WE -- EVEN IF WE HAVE HAD THE VACCINE, WE CAN STILL ACT AS CARRIERS TO SOMEBODY WITH -- >> YEAH.

A COUPLE THINGS ABOUT THAT.

AND THE LANGUAGE, IT'S CONVENIENT TO TALK ABOUT CARRIERS AND I HEAR THAT A LOT.

TECHNICALLY, PEOPLE ARE NOT CARRIERS, SO THAT WOULD BE THE SAME AS TYPHOID MARY STORY WHERE SHE HAD IT IN HER GALLBLADDER AND SHE KEPT GIVING PEOPLE TIEFR IDENTIFIED.

THIS IS MORE HAVING AN UNRECOGNIZED INFECTION, SO SOMEONE WHO'S BEEN VACCINATED COULD GET INFECTED AND IN A WINDOW PERIOD OF A FEW DAYS TO A WEEK, THEY COULD SHED VIRUS AND GIVE IT TO SOMEBODY ELSE.

IT WOULDN'T BE AN INDEFINITE THING, BUT THERE COULD BE A TIME PERIOD WHERE THEY COULD GIVE IT TO SOMEONE WHO'S MORE VULNERABLE.

>> SO YOU'RE SAYING LIKE THE FIRST WAVE, THEY COULD BE ASYMPTOMATIC AND JUST PASS IT ALONG, EVEN WITH THE VACCINE.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

>> OKAY.

>> DOCTOR, IF THE GOAL IS VACCINATION, WOULDN'T IT BE BETTER TO HAVE SOMETHING -- LIKE LET THE PRIVATE ENTERPRISE DO IT?

IF A RESTAURANT WANTS TO SAY YOU NEED TO SHOWER VACCINATION CARD TO GET IN T THEN I'LL GO TO THAT RESTAURANT.

IF THEY SAY EVERYONE IS WELCOME, I'LL PROBABLY STAY AWAY FROM THERE.

>> YEAH.

>> IT JUST SEEMS LIKE THAT THE MASK MANDATE DOESN'T WORK TO INCREASE THE VACCINATION RATE.

>> BILL, I THINK THAT'S A GOOD INSIGHT, AND I THINK THERE IS THIS CHALLENGE THAT WHEN YOU'RE TELLING A LARGE GROUP OF PEOPLE TO DO TWO THINGS THEY'RE NOT VERY EXCITED ABOUT, YOU KNOW, YOU RISK THEM SAYING TO HECK WITH THAT, I'M NOT GOING TO DO ANYTHING.

AGAIN, I MEAN, THE GOALS ARE DIFFERENT.

THE MASK MANDATE IS TO TRY TO TAMP THIS DOWN SO WE DON'T MAX OUT THE HEALTH SYSTEM, WHILE VACCINATION IS ABOUT TRYING TO GET US TO A POINT WHERE THIS DISEASE STOPS CIRCULATING.

AND I THINK WE -- YOU KNOW, EVERYBODY WOULD LIKE TO SEE COVID GONE ONCE AND FOR ALL.

THE IDEA OF PRIVATE ENTERPRISE -- I'M SORRY, MY LIGHT JUST WENT OFF IN MY OFFICE.

I'M NOT MOVING ENOUGH.

THE IDEA OF PRIVATE ENTERPRISE WEIGHING IN ON THIS AND HELPING, I THINK IS GREAT.

I'D LOVE TO SEE BUSINESSES SAY, YOU KNOW, WE'D LIKE TO SEE YOUR VACCINATION CARD IN ORDER FOR YOU TO COME IN HERE.

I THINK THAT WOULD ALSO FACE SOME SIGNIFICANT RESISTANCE FROM PEOPLE.

>> IF YOU'RE JUST JOINING US, THIS IS DONNYBROOK NEXT UP.

BILL AND I ARE VISITING WITH DR. CLAY DUNAGAN.

HE'S THE CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER FOR BJC HEALTH SYSTEMS AND THE ACTING DIRECTOR OF THE ST. LOUIS METROPOLITAN PANDEMIC TASK FORCE.

DOCTOR, BECAUSE WE'RE ALL LEARNING MORE THAN WE EVER DREAMED WE WOULD LEARN ABOUT A PANDEMIC, IS THERE ANY WAY IN -- YOU KNOW, LACKING PUSH FOR, YOU KNOW, INCREASED VACCINATION RATE, THAT THE DELTA VARIANT COULD BECOME STRONGER OVER TIME OR MORE DANGEROUS TO PEOPLE'S HEALTH THAN IT SEEMS TO BE RIGHT NOW?

OR ARE THE DEATH RATES AS HIGH OR THE ICU RATE AS HIGH AS THEY WERE A YEAR AGO RIGHT NOW?

>> LET'S SEE.

A COUPLE OF PARTS TO THAT.

FIRST OF ALL, YOU KNOW, VIRUSES MUTATE ALL THE TIME AND WE SEE IT WITH INFLUENZA AND OTHER VIRUSES, AND THEY -- YOU KNOW, SOME VARIANTS ARE MORE SINISTER THAN THE ONES BEFORE THEM.

THEY MAKE THE VIRUS MORE INFECTIOUS OR MAKE THE VIRUS MORE VIRULENT AND CAUSES MORE SYMPTOMS.

TYPICALLY THE ONES THAT SORT OF EMERGE AND TAKE OVER ARE, LIKE DELTA, ONES THAT CAN BE TRANSMITTED MORE EASILY.

THAT'S THE BIG ADVANTAGE BECAUSE THE MORE PEOPLE YOU CAN INFECT, THE FASTER IT SPREADS AND, YOU KNOW, THAT SORT OF DOMINATES THE EQUATION.

WITHOUT WANTING TO SOUND APOCALYPTIC, THERE'S ALWAYS THE POSSIBILITY THAT DELTA OR ANOTHER VARIANT COULD HAVE A NEW MUTATION THAT WOULD MAKE IT EVEN MORE PROBLEMATIC, MAKE IT SPREAD FASTER, MAKE IT CAUSE MORE SERIOUS DISEASE.

THE THING THAT WE CAN DO TO MITIGATE THAT IS TO STOP CIRCULATION, AND AGAIN, THAT MEANS VACCINATING WITH A VACCINE THAT WORKS FOR THE EXISTING STRAIN.

IF YOU COULD DO THAT QUICKLY, THEN YOU REALLY CAN GREATLY LIMIT SUBSEQUENT MUTATION.

IT'S GOING TO BE DIFFICULT TO GET TO THAT LEVEL AS FAST AS WE NEED TO, HOWEVER.

WE'LL HAVE TO SEE IF NEW VARIANTS ARISE THAT ARE WORSE THAN THE DELTA VARIANT, BUT WE DO KNOW WE'LL SEE OTHER VARIANTS IN THE FUTURE.

>> DOCTOR, WHAT'S THE LATEST ON KIDS?

I MENTIONED IT EARLY ON.

LIKE I HAVE A 10-YEAR-OLD AND A 6-YEAR-OLD WHO ARE OVER HERE EVEN AS WE SPEAK.

ARE KIDS -- ARE KIDS GOING TO BE VACCINATED SOON?

ARE WE NOT SUPPOSED TO WORRY ABOUT CHILDREN?

WHAT'S THE LATEST ON KIDS?

>> OKAY, YEAH, THANK YOU, BILL.

THERE'S SEVERAL ISSUES THERE.

FIRST OF ALL, AT PRESENT, WE ARE SEEING MORE PEDIATRIC DISEASE THAN WE DID.

I THINK AS OF THIS MORNING, CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL HAD ABOUT A DOZEN PATIENTS IN WITH -- KIDS IN WITH COVID, WHICH IS MORE THAN WE EVER SAW IN THE PREVIOUS WAVE.

THAT SAID, KIDS ARE STILL MUCH LESS LIKELY TO HAVE SERIOUS DISEASE AND SERIOUS INFECTION, SO WE HAVEN'T REACHED A CRITICAL THRESHOLD WHERE KIDS ARE THE REAL DANGER SIGNAL.

I DON'T KNOW, YOU PROBABLY REMEMBER A FEW YEARS AGO, WE HAD A FLU STRAIN THAT WAS PARTICULARLY VIR RULE LEN, KILLED A LOT -- VIRULENT, KILLED A LOT OF KIDS NATIONALLY, AND COVID HAS NOT TAKEN THAT TURN.

SO THAT PART IS FEELING OKAY FOR THE MOMENT.

KIDS ARE, THOUGH, QUITE CAPABLE OF TRANSMITTING IT TO OTHERS, INCLUDING THEIR GRANDPARENTS OR TO FAMILY MEMBERS WHO ARE IMMUNO-COMPROMISED OR TO OTHER FAMILIES WHERE THEY MIGHT HAVE SOMEONE AT RISK.

SO THAT IS A POTENTIAL PROBLEM.

IN TERMS OF VACCINES, THERE ARE STUDIES GOING ON.

I THINK BASED ON THE TRACK RECORD WE'VE SEEN FOR THESE VACCINES SO FAR, I EXPECT THEM TO BE EFFECTIVE AND WELL-TOLERATED IN KIDS.

WE'RE JUST GOING TO BE SOME MONTHS AWAY FROM HAVING THE DATA IN HAND THAT WILL ALLOW THE FDA TO APPROVE FOR THAT USE.

>> WELL, AS A FOLLOW-UP TO BILL'S QUESTION THEN, WHAT IS A GRANDMOTHER OR GRANDFATHER TO DO IF THERE IS STILL THAT RISK, EVEN THOUGH WE'RE NOT SURE HOW MUCH OF A RISK IT IS AT THIS MOMENT?

WHAT SHOULD -- WHAT DO YOU RECOMMEND THEY DO WHEN YOU SEE YOUR GRANDKIDS ALL THE TIME?

>> YEAH.

WELL, I HAVE NOT NINE GRANDKIDS OF MY OWN THAT I'M GETTING READY TO SEE SOON, SO THIS QUESTION IS PRESENT IN MY HOUSEHOLD AS WELL.

I THINK THE -- THERE ARE SOME GENERAL RULES.

I THINK BEING WITH THEM OUTDOORS IS MUCH SAFER THAN BEING WITH THEM INDOORS.

THANKFULLY IT'S SUMMER AND THAT'S FAIRLY TODAY DO.

IF YOU'RE GOING TO BE IN CLOSE CONTACT WITH THEM, HONESTLY, THE SAFEST THING IS TO BE MASKED FOR YOU AND YOUR GRANDKIDS TO BE MASKED, PARTICULARLY IF THEY'VE BEEN WITH A LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE WHOSE VACCINE STATUS IS UNKNOWN OR IF THERE'S, YOU KNOW, A DAY CAMP THEY'VE BEEN INTO.

BEEN A FAIR NUMBER OF OUTBREAKS THIS SUMMER IN CAMPS THAT KIDS HAVE BEEN GOING TO.

HAVING SAID THAT, I KNOW IT'S TOUGH.

YOU KNOW, REALLY HARD TO BE WITH GRANDKIDS AND HAVE A MASK ON.

SURPRISINGLY, OR MAYBE NOT SO SURPRISINGLY, THEY CAN ADAPT TO IT BETTER THAN WE DO.

DOESN'T REALLY SEEM TO MATTER AS TOMP THEM, BUT THE -- AS MUCH TO THEM, BUT THE BOTTOM LINE IS TO BE SAFE WITH YOUNG KIDS THAT YOU'RE NOT LIVING WITH REGULARLY AND WHO HAVE BEEN SEEING OTHERS, PROBABLY NEED TO WEAR A MASK.

>> WHAT ABOUT GOING BACK TO SCHOOL?

DO YOU THINK KIDS SHOULD -- I MEAN, IT'S ALMOST AUGUST, AND MIDDLE OF AUGUST, LATE AUGUST, KID GO BACK TO SCHOOL.

IS THIS GOING TO BE A PROBLEM, DO YOU THINK?

>> WELL, IT'S GOING TO BE A PROBLEM BECAUSE I THINK THE POPULATION, OUR CITIZENS ARE HAVING TROUBLE ACCEPTING WHAT LOOKS LIKE THE MOST PRUDENT ADVICE.

WHAT WE'VE LEARNED IN THE LAST WAVE IS THAT SCHOOLS ARE PRETTY GOOD AT KEEPING PEOPLE FROM GETTING INFECTED, EVEN WHEN THERE WERE CASES AT SCHOOL, THEY SELDOM LED TO MORE THAN A COUPLE OF OTHER PEOPLE BEING DIAGNOSED WITH COVID.

SO THEY KNOW WHAT TO DO, BUT WE NEED TO GIVE THEM THE INSTRUCTIONS TO GO AHEAD AND TAKE THESE PRECAUTIONS, WHICH INCLUDES THINGS LIKE MASKING.

I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT THAT KIDS GET BACK IN SCHOOL.

I DON'T HAVE ANY ARGUMENT ABOUT THAT, BUT I DO THINK MASKING WOULD BE APPROPRIATE UNTIL KIDS CAN BE VACCINATED.

>> DR. DUNAGAN, AS A SCIENTIST, AS A PHYSICIAN, YOU HAVE THE HERCULEAN TASK OF PROTECTING THE HELS OF YOUR PATIENTS.

-- HEALTH OF YOUR PATIENTS.

DID YOU EVER OR HAVE YOU EVER DREAMED OF A SCENARIO IN WHICH YOU HAD TO ALSO SORT OF BATTLE BACK POLITICAL INFLUENCES?

JUST FROM A PHYSICIAN'S POINT OF VIEW, COULD YOU SHARE WITH OUR VIEWERS WHAT THIS IS LIKE FOR THE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY, FOR THE MEDICAL COMMUNITY, TO SEE THESE POLITICAL DIVIDES OVER SOMETHING THAT SEEMS TO BE PRETTY STRAIGHTFORWARD AND EASY TO UNDERSTAND FOR THE GOOD OF EVERYONE IN THE COMMUNITY.

>> WENDY, FOR STARTERS, VACCINES ARE TRULY ONE OF THE MOST INCREDIBLE INVENTIONS OF MEDICAL SCIENCE OVER THE YEARS.

VACCINES HAVE PROBABLY SAVED MORE LIVES THAN ALL OTHER MEDICATIONS PUT TOGETHER.

IT'S REALLY AMAZING.

AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, WE ALL TAKE FOR GRANTED SOME OF THE VACCINES WE HAVE RECEIVED OVER OUR LIFETIME.

YOU KNOW, WE REMEMBER BEING VACCINATED FOR SOME DISEASES.

I WAS VACCINATED AGAINST SMALL FOX AND I'M VACCINATED AGAINST -- SMALLPOX AND I'M VACCINATED AGAINST POLIO.

TO THE IDEA THEY ARE INCREDIBLY EFFECTIVE AT PREVENTING TRANSMISSION OF DISEASES THAT CAN BE DEADLY.

THERE ARE OTHER CASES IN MORE RECENT DEVELOPMENTS SUCH AS MEASLES WHERE SORT OF THE MEMORY IN THE POPULATION OF HOW BAD MEASLES CAN BE AND SOME OF THE REALLY SERIOUS CONSEQUENCES HAVE STARTED TO FADE, AND I THINK THAT'S ALLOWED ANTI-VACCINATION ATTITUDES TO FLOURISH.

PEOPLE DONE REALLY REMEMBER THE DOWN SIDE OF THESE DISEASES BEFORE THERE WERE VACCINES AND IN AN IMPORTANT WAY, PEOPLE WHO ARE HOLDOUTS AGAINST VACCINES ARE IN SOME WAYS RIDING ON THE COATTAILS OF THE REST OF THE POPULATION THAT'S WILLING TO BE VACCINATED AND PREVENT DISEASES FROM CIRCULATING.

SO THIS IDEA OF VACCINES ARE INCREDIBLY BENEFICIAL, BUT THERE ARE GROUPS THAT ARE VERY ANXIOUS ABOUT VACCINATION AND ARE OPPOSED ON VARIOUS GROUNDS TO THEM, HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR A LONG TIME.

WHAT IS UNIQUE ABOUT COVID IS THE POLITICAL IDENTITY THAT SOME PEOPLE HAVE ASSOCIATED WITH THE USE OF THE VACCINE, AND THAT IS A REMARKABLE DEVELOPMENT BECAUSE IT HAS NO BASIS IN SCIENTIFIC REASONING FOR SURE.

THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT GETTING COVID IS WAY MORE DANGEROUS THAN BEING VACCINATED WITH AN ANTI-COVID VACCINE.

NOR DOES IT HAVE NECESSARILY A RELIGIOUS BENT.

IT'S NOT -- FOR MANY OF THESE PEOPLE, IT'S NOT ETHICAL, IT'S ABOUT A PERSONAL LIBERTY AND A POLITICAL IDENTITY, AND THESE A TRUE MISS FORTUNE OF THIS CURRENT AGE.

THERE'S REALLY NO REASON THAT WE SHOULD THINK ABOUT MEDICAL ISSUES AS POLITICAL DIVIDING LINES.

IT'S BEEN A REAL -- A HEARTBREAK FOR MANY OF US TO SEE INDIVIDUALS DYING IN OUR INTENSIVE CARE UNITS BECAUSE THEY TOOK A POLITICAL STANCE AGAINST GETTING VACCINATED AND IT'S JUST A TRAGEDY THAT NONE OF US WOULD EVER HAVE IMAGINED SEEING.

ON TOP OF THAT, WE'RE NOW STARTING TO SEE THE -- SOME SENSE OF RESENTMENT THAT MEDICAL RESOURCES ARE HAVING TO BE EXPENDED ON DISEASES THAT ARE BASICALLY PREVENTABLE FROM A VACCINE, AND I THINK THAT'S TAKEN A DIFFERENT TOLL ON PEOPLE.

>> WELL, DOCTOR, WHAT WOULD YOU PROPOSE WE DO?

I MEAN EDUCATING THE PEOPLE JUST HAS NOT WORKED.

I MEAN, WE STILL HAVE THAT SOLID, I DON'T KNOW WHAT PERCENTAGE, BUT A HIGH PERCENTAGE, ALMOST HALF OF THE PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT TO DO THIS AND, YOU KNOW, AND THE GOVERNMENT OBVIOUSLY ISN'T GOING TO BE ABLE TO FORCE ANYBODY TO GET A VACCINE.

SO WHAT WOULD YOU SUGGEST WE DO?

IF EDUCATION DOESN'T WORK, WHAT DO WE DO?

>> YEAH.

WELL, THE WAY THIS IS GOING, I THINK MOST PEOPLE ARE EITHER GOING TO GET VACCINATED OR THEY'RE GOING TO GET COVID.

THAT'S SORT OF THE LONG AND SHORT OF IT.

SO WE'LL EVENTUALLY REACH A POINT WHERE WE'RE AT PRETTY MUCH A STEADY STATE WITH THIS PARTICULAR VARIANT.

WE DON'T KNOW HOW MANY PEOPLE WE'LL LOSE IN THE INTERIM.

WE DO KNOW THAT AS THE DISEASE SWEEPS THROUGH AN AREA, THERE'S CERTAINLY INDIVIDUALS WHO HAVE BEEN SITTING THE FENCE THAT BECOME MORE RECEPTIVE TO THE IDEA OF BEING VACCINATED, AND SO THERE WILL BE, I THINK, SOME PICKUP AS DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE COUNTRY SEE FIRST HAND HOW QUICKLY THIS SPREADS AND HOW MUCH DANGER IT PUTS, PARTICULARLY OLDER CITIZENS AND VULNERABLE CITIZENS, AND THERE WILL BE SOME PICKUP.

THERE ARE, THOUGH, SOME REALLY HARDCORE HOLDOUT AREAS THAT I THINK WILL EVENTUALLY JUST HAVE TO EXPERIENCE THE VIRUS FIRST HAND, AND EVEN THOUGH THEY MAY NOT RUE HAVING AVOIDED THE VACCINE, BUT EVENTUALLY WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO GET TO A POINT WHERE THERE'S ENOUGH IMMUNITY TO STOP CIRCULATION.

>> DR. DUNAGAN, CERTAIN TOURIST ATTRACTION TYPE AREAS AROUND THE STATE OF MISSOURI AND ELSEWHERE HAVE BEEN DESIGNATED HOT SPOTS.

WE'RE KIND OF IN THE DOG DAYS OF SUMMER, PEOPLE ARE LOOKING FORWARD TO GOING BACK TO SCHOOL AND I THINK THERE'S A LITTLE BIT OF CONFUSION IF THEY HAVE RESERVATIONS TO FLY INTO OR TO TRAVEL TO ONE OF THESE HOT SPOTS.

WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO THOSE FAMILIES OR INDIVIDUALS?

>> IT DEPENDS ON WHAT THEIR VACATION PLANS ARE.

I THINK IF YOUR IDEA WAS TO GO DOWN TO LAKE TABLEROCK AND HAVE A FISHING BOAT AND GO OUT INTO A, YOU KNOW, COVE, YOU CAN PROBABLY TRAVEL SAFELY.

AGAIN, IF YOU'RE WILLING TO WEAR A MASK, YOU CAN GO ALMOST ANY PLACE PRETTY SAFELY.

IF YOUR PLAN WAS TO GO TO A LAKE AND GO TO A BUSY POOLSIDE BAR WITH 400 OF YOUR CLOSEST FRIENDS, YOU NEED TO REALLY THINK CAREFULLY ABOUT WHETHER YOU'RE SOMEONE WHO IS AT LOW ENOUGH RISK TO MANAGE THROUGH THAT.

AND YOU ALSO HOPEFULLY NEED TO THINK ABOUT THE CONSEQUENCES OF YOU GETTING INFECTED AND BEING AROUND OTHER PEOPLE WHO MIGHT NOT BE SO HEALTHY.

SO I THINK THE PLANS REALLY MATTER A LOT.

I DON'T WANT TO SAY THERE'S ANY PART OF THE COUNTRY YOU CAN'T GO TO, BUT ANY PLACE THAT'S CROWDED AND A LARGE PROPORTION OF PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE UNMASKED, I THINK THERE'S A PRETTY HIGH RISK.

>> HOW ABOUT, SHOULD I DRIVE OR SHOULD I FLY?

IN AIRPORTS, PEOPLE ARE MASKED, BUT YET YOU'RE IN THAT AIRPLANE, YOU KNOW, PRETTY CLOSE QUARTERS, OR IS IT BETTER TO JUST HAVE A ROAD TRIP AND DRIVE AND STAY IN MOTELS?

>> I THINK THAT'S A TOSS-UP.

WE HAVEN'T SEEN A LOT OF AIR TRAVEL-RELATED DISEASE.

THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO LOOK FOR IT, BUT WE DON'T GET THAT HISTORY IN MOST THE PEOPLE THAT WE SEE WITH POSITIVE TESTS.

I THINK, AGAIN, IF YOU'RE DILIGENT WITH YOUR MASK, YOU CAN PROBABLY MANAGE THAT PRETTY WELL.

INTERESTINGLY, BEING IN THE PLANE IS PROBABLY SAFER THAN THE AIRPORT BECAUSE THEY PAY SO MUCH ATTENTION TO AIR EXCHANGE AND HOW TO TRY TO MAKE SURE TO AVOID CIRCUMSTANCES WHERE PARTICLES MIGHT BE FLOATING IN THE AIR.

BUT I WOULDN'T HAVE TOO MUCH TREPIDATION ABOUT GETTING ON A PLANE FOR A LONG TRIP.

I DO THINK THAT DRIVING IN ONE WAY IS INTRINSICALLY SAFER BECAUSE YOU'RE IN YOUR OWN DOMAIN AND YOU'RE NOT WITH OTHER PEOPLE.

BUT IF IT'S A LONG TRIP, YOU DO HAVE TO STOP, YOU HAVE TO STAY IN HOTELS, YOU HAVE OPPORTUNITY TO ENCOUNTER SOMEONE WHO'S INFECTED, SO THERE'S NOT A HARD AND FAST ANSWER TO THAT ONE, BILL.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS WE SEE AT OUR TECH LINE AT KTRS, PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT NOT WANTING A VACCINE WITHOUT FDA APPROVAL.

IN TERMS OF FAST TRACKING THAT KIND OF THING, WHERE ARE WE RIGHT NOW, DR. DUNAGAN?

>> WELL, NO ONE WOULD CALL THE CURRENT PROCESS FAST-TRACKED AT THIS POINT.

IT'S REALLY HARD FOR US ON THE OUTSIDE OF THE PROCESS TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THE HOLD-UP IS.

ARGUABLY, THESE VACCINES HAVE BEEN GIVEN TO WAY MORE PEOPLE THAN TYPICALLY EVER SEE ANOTHER DRUG BEFORE IT'S APPROVED, SO IT SEEMS INCONCEIVABLE THAT THEY'RE GOING TO GET TO A POINT OF SUDDENLY SAYING IT'S NOT EFFECTIVE OR IT'S NOT SAFE.

WHEN YOU READ THE ARTICLES BY THE PEOPLE IN THE FDA, IT SOUNDS LIKE IT'S PRIMARILY A BUREAUCRATIC PROCESS, PRIMARILY ADMINISTRATIVE ISSUES THAT ARE PREVENTING THEM FROM FINISHING UP.

LORD KNOWS EXACTLY WHAT THOSE ARE OR WHEN THEY'RE GOING TO BE FINISHED.

I DO FEEL LIKE THE FDA HAS JUST BEEN A LITTLE OUT OF TOUCH WITH WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE REAL WORLD.

I BELIEVE THAT ONCE IT'S APPROVED, THEN THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO WILL SAY, OKAY, THAT'S THE FINAL STAMP OF APPROVAL THAT THIS IS SAFE AND EFFECTIVE AND I CAN TAKE IT.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT PROPORTION OF HOLDOUTS THAT WILL BE, BUT IT WILL BE SOMETHING AND IT MAY ALSO ALLOW COMPANIES TO START TO SAY, WE NEED TO HAVE OUR WORKERS VACCINATED.

THEY SERVE THE PUBLIC, THEY HAVE CONSTANT CONTACT, WE OWE IT TO OUR CUSTOMERS TO MAKE SURE WE'RE KEEPING THEM SAFE.

SO HOPEFULLY WE'LL HEAR SOON.

I'VE HEARD VARIOUS THINGS, INCLUDING THE PRESIDENT'S ASSERTION THAT IT WILL BE WITHIN THE NEXT MONTH, BUT I THINK, YOU KNOW, NO ONE REALLY KNOWS THE ANSWER.

>> DOCTOR, I WAS READING THAT THE DELTA VARIANT CAN FEEL JUST LIKE A COLD, ESPECIALLY IF YOU'VE BEEN VACCINATED.

WELL, OF COURSE, MY FRIENDS AND I, YOU KNOW, WE'VE ALL BEEN VACCINATED AND AS SOON AS SOMEBODY FEELS THE SLIGHTEST BIT LIKE -- UNDER THE WEATHER, I MIGHT HAVE THE DISEASE.

ARE THERE A LOT OF US THAT NOW HAVE HAD IT THAT THOUGHT IT WAS A COLD AND IS THERE ANYTHING WE'RE SUPPOSED TO DO OR CHECK ON?

>> DOCTOR, EXCUSE ME.

30-SECOND WARNING SIGN.

>> OKAY.

YEAH, IT IS TRUE, PARTICULARLY IF YOU'VE BEEN VACCINATED.

DELTA CAN LOOK JUST LIKE A MILD SUMMER COLD AND I THINK IT IS PRUDENT TO GET TESTED IF YOU HAVE A SORE THROAT OR STUFFNY NOSE OR FEEL LIKE YOU'RE UNDER THE WEATHER.

AGAIN, ALTHOUGH WE KNOW YOU CAN PASS IT ON, EVEN IF YOU'VE BEEN VACCINATED, PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN VACCINATED ARE PROBABLY AT LOWER RISK OF SPREGD TO IT OTHERS JUST IN -- SPREADING TO IT OTHERS JUST IN GENERAL.

BUT SUMMER COLDS COULD BE COVID.

>> THANK YOU ALL FOR WATCHING NEXT UP.

DR. DUNAGAN, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BEING SO GENEROUS WITH YOUR TIME.

DR. CLAY DUNAGAN IS THE CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER FOR BJC HEALTH SYSTEMS AND HE IS THE AXING HEAD OF THE ST. LOUIS -- ACTING HEAD OF THE ST. LOUIS METROPOLITAN PANDEMIC TASK FORCE, JOINING WITH US AN UPDATE ON THE DELTA VARIANT.

KEEP IT RIGHT HERE ON NINE PBS AND THANKS SO MUCH FOR WATCHING.

ON BEHALF OF BILL McCLELLAN, GOOD NIGHT.

>> Announcer: DONNYBROOK IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE SUPPORT OF THE BETSY AND THOMAS PATTERSON FOUNDATION AND THE MEMBERS OF NINE PBS.