TIM: WELCOME BACK.

FORMER REPUBLICAN STATE SENATOR TONYA SCHUITMAKER IS OUR GUEST.

ABOUT TO BECOME THE CO-DIRECTOR OF THE MICHIGAN POLITICAL LEADERSHIP PROGRAM.

OUR LEAD STORY, THE PRESIDENT COMES TO TC, WHY?

ON THE "OTR" PANEL, CHEYNA ROTH, CHAD LIVENGOOD AS WE GET THE INSIDE, OUT, OFF THE RECORD.

ANNOUNCER: PRODUCTION OF "OFF THE RECORD" IS MADE POSSIBLE IN PART BY THE FOLLOWING -- AND NOW, THIS EDITION OF "OFF THE RECORD" WITH TIM SKUBICK.

TIM: WELCOME BACK TO ZOOM EDITION OF "OFF THE RECORD," AND OUR DAYS ARE NUMBERED.

I'M TOLD ON AUGUST 6, PLEASE CIRCLE THAT ON THE CALENDAR, I WILL NO LONGER BE ALONE IN THIS STUDIO.

I'M LOOKING SO MUCH FORWARD TO THIS, GUYS.

GOOD MORNING TO Z AND CHEYNA AND CHAD, THE PRESIDENT CAME TO TRAVERSE CITY TO BUY CHERRY PIES.

WHAT WAS THAT ALL ABOUT?

>> INTERESTING TRIP.

I WAS IN TRAVERSE CITY AT THE TIME, IT CAME SMACK-DAB IN THE MIDDLE OF THE CHERRY FESTIVAL IN THE 4th OF JULY WEEKEND, HE BOUGHT SOME PIES, HE HAD CHERRY SODA, WALKED AROUND A CHERRY ORCHARD, SHOOK HANDS, TALKED TO THE GOVERNOR AND OTHER LAWMAKERS, AND IT WAS PART OF THIS EFFORT BY THE PRESIDENT TO ENCOURAGE VACCINATION RATES TO ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO GET OUT AND GET VACCINATED.

NOW, HE WENT TO ONE OF THE AREAS IN MICHIGAN THAT HAS ONE OF THE HIGHEST VACCINATION RATES.

SO I THINK THIS WAS PROBABLY A LITTLE BIT OF THAT BUT ALSO A LITTLE BIT OF RECOGNIZING THAT MICHIGAN IS A VERY CRUCIAL STATE FOR THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, NOT JUST FOR THE PRESIDENT, FOR HIS UPCOMING ELECTION IN A FEW YEARS BUT OUR OWN ELECTIONS THAT ARE COMING UP VERY SOON.

I THINK IT WAS ALSO PROBABLY AN EFFORT TO KEEP THAT AN EFFORT TO KEEP DEMOCRATIC MOMENTUM GOING AND LET PEOPLE KNOW, HEY, HERE'S THE PRESIDENT, HE APPRECIATES MICHIGAN, KNOWS MICHIGAN IS A BIG DEAL.

TIM: ZOE IS SPEAKING TO US BY THE BEAUTIFUL STATE OF PENNSYLVANIA, YOU HAD THE PENNSYLVANIA BUREAU THIS MORNING.

HOW IS THIS THIS MORNING?

>> I DO HAVE THE PENNSYLVANIA BUREAU AS WELL AS MARRIOTT CHIC BEHIND ME, YES.

WE ARE ONE WEEK LATE, CHEYNA WAS TRAVELING LAST WEEK, WE ARE TRAVELING THIS WEEK.

THIS IS PART OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

THESE APPEARANCES, RIGHT, OF BACK TO NORMAL.

IT WASN'T JUST HIM TRAVELING.

JOE BIDEN, KAMALA HARRIS, THE SECOND GENTLEMAN AS WELL AS ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS, AND DOING THAT KIND OF BARBECUE AND FIREWORKS AND PARADES.

LOOK, YOU KNOW, BIDEN DID NOT GET TO THE 70% NATIONWIDE VACCINATION THAT WAS THE GOAL, AND NEITHER, OF COURSE, DID GOVERNOR WHITMER, AND THUS, AS WE WELL KNOW DECIDED TO OPEN THINGS UP ANYWAY, MUCH EARLIER, AND I THINK IT'S SORT OF THIS INDICATION THAT WE HAVE SORT OF STALLED IN THIS NUMBER OF HOW MANY FOLKS ARE GOING TO GET VACCINATED.

THE LATEST SENATE FISCAL AGENCY REPORT NOW SAYS IF WE USE THE NUMBERS, IT WON'T BE UNTIL NEXT YEAR THAT WE GET TO THAT CRITICAL POINT, BUT THE APPEARANCES MATTER OF BIDEN GETTING TO SAY, ALONG WITH HIS DEMOCRATIC COHORTS, LOOK, WE HAVE GOTTEN PAST THIS, WE ARE THROUGH, AND AS GOVERNOR WHITMER HAS BEEN SAYING, ENJOY THIS PURE MICHIGAN SUMMER.

TIM: CHAD, WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF THIS TRIP?

IT WAS SORT OF ODD, EVERYBODY THOUGHT THERE WAS GOING TO BE A RALLY IN THE MIDDLE OF THE CHERRY FESTIVAL.

PROBABLY NOT A GOOD IDEA IF YOU WANT TO MAKE FRIENDS INSTEAD OF ENEMIES, WHAT DID YOU THINK OF THIS IDEA?

>> CREATIVE ON THE WHITE HOUSE'S PART TO GET OUTSIDE OF NORMAL METROPOLITAN AREAS.

IT WOULD BE PREDICTABLE IF BIDEN HAD GONE TO GRAND RAPIDS OR BIDEN TO GONE TO TROY, OR DETROIT.

SO HE GOES OFF THE NORMAL BEATEN PATH INTO A PLACE THAT ACTUALLY HAS SOME RESONANCE AS FAR AS SHOWING THE VAST DIFFERENCES IN WHERE WE ARE ON THIS EFFORT TO VACCINATE.

IN GRAND TRAVERS COUNTY, FLANKED BY TWO COUNTIES, TO THE EAST AND THE WEST THAT ILLUSTRATE WHAT'S GOING ON.

48% OF PEOPLE OVER 16 ARE VACCINATED IN LELAND COUNTY, 76% OF PEOPLE ARE VACCINATED.

IT'S THE HIGHEST VACCINATED RATE OF ANY COUNTY IN MICHIGAN.

SO YOU GET REALLY AN INTERESTING TALE OF TWO COUNTIES JUST WITHIN 40 MILES OF EACH OTHER, AND IT REALLY HELPS DRIVE HOME THE POINT THAT THIS VIRUS DOESN'T KNOW ANY COUNTY BORDERS, AND IT WILL VERY WELL, YOU KNOW, WORK ITS WAY BACK INTO KALKASKA AND COUNTY AND RURAL AREAS, WHERE THE VACCINATION RATES ARE REALLY, REALLY STILL LAGGING.

>> AND SPEAKING OF ANTRIM COUNTY, YOU HAVE TO WONDER THE LOW-KEY TROLLING THERE WITH JOE BIDEN BEING -- [ LAUGHTER ] >> SCENE OF THE CRIME.

>> RIGHT, RIGHT?

>> ALL THE CONSPIRACIES THAT RESOLVED AROUND ANTRIM COUNTY, THAT DID HAVE SOME SYMBOLISM TO POLITICAL INSIDERS THAT THERE IS THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES PICKING CHERRIES IN ANTRIM COUNTY WHILE THE CONSPIRACY THEORISTS ARE CIRCLING AROUND ELK LAKE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT, YOU KNOW, HOW THE ELECTION MIGHT HAVE BEEN STOLEN, WHICH IT WASN'T.

TIM: LET ME QUICKLY GIVE YOU THE BACK STORY, WHY THAT FARM, WHY THAT TIME, WHY THIS FAMILY?

THE STORY STARTS WITH A BROTHER NAMED MIKE.

HE DID A VIDEO ON CLIMATE CHANGE, A SKIER AND FARMER, SOMEBODY ON THE BIDEN TEAM A YEAR AGO SAW THE VIDEO, CALLED UP THIS FAMILY AND SAID LISTEN, CAN WE SEND UP A CAMERA CREW TO YOUR FARM TO INTERVIEW YOU AND THE FAMILY ENDED UP IN A COMMERCIAL FOR JOE BIDEN FOR PRESIDENT.

SO THEN, AFTER THAT, JILL BIDEN SHOWS UP.

CALLED THE SAME FAMILY.

CAN WE COME UP?

WHAT FAMILY IN THIS COUNTRY CAN BOAST THEY'VE HAD THE ABOUT TO BE FIRST LADY AND THE PRESIDENT ON THEIR FARM PICKING CHERRIES.

WHAT A GET, WHAT A GET.

NOBODY ELSE COULD DO THAT.

TALK ABOUT GETTING.

GETTING OUT WAS CHIEF CRAIG, THE FORMER DETROIT POLICE CHIEF DID A BIT IN JACKSON, DID IT MOVE THE NEEDLE?

>> HE HASN'T OFFICIALLY DECLARED HE'S RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR.

THAT BEING SAID, DURING HIS SPEECH, HE SAID ALL OF THE RIGHT THINGS TO SAY IF YOU ARE SOMEBODY WHO WANTS TO RUN ON THE REPUBLICAN TICKET FOR GOVERNOR.

HE TALKED ABOUT GUN CONTROL -- BEING AGAINST GUN CONTROL.

HE TALKED ABOUT HOW GOVERNOR WHITMER HAS DONE ALL OF THE WRONG THINGS WITH THE COVID ORDERS AND THE LOCKDOWN, AND SO, I MEAN, I THINK HE REALLY, ALTHOUGH HE KEPT SAYING, I HAVE NOT OFFICIALLY -- I'M NOT SAYING I'M RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR, IT'S CLEAR THIS IS THE SPEECH YOU GIVE IF YOU ARE PLANNING TO RUN FOR GOVERNOR, AND HE CHECKS A LOT OF BOXES.

HE'S IN THE DETROIT FOR REPUBLICANS, HE'S IN THE DETROIT AREA.

HE'S A FORMER POLICE CHIEF.

YOU KNOW, HE CAN SAY HE KIND OF USED TO BE -- HE HAS A STORY WHERE HE USED TO BE A DEMOCRAT AND SAW THE LIGHT AND WANTS TO BE A REPUBLICAN -- HE IS A REPUBLICAN NOW AND BELIEVES IN A LOT OF CONSERVATIVE VALUES.

YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW THAT HE HAS THE NAME RECOGNITION STATEWIDE THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY MIGHT BE HOPING FOR WHEN IT COMES TO THEIR GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE, BUT HE'S OFF TO A FAIRLY DECENT START WITH THIS SPEECH.

TIM: THEN HE GOT ON THE TRUCK AND LEFT, CHAD.

>> YEAH.

HE'S NOT TAKING QUESTIONS YET.

THAT'S SORT OF THE KEY LITMUS TEST IN OUR CROWD.

OKAY, WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO ANSWER QUESTIONS ABOUT WHO YOU ARE, WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE IN, WHAT DO YOU THINK HAPPENED IN THE 2020 ELECTION?

DO YOU BELIEVE THAT TRUMP IS CORRECT, THAT THE ELECTIONS WAS STOLEN?

SOME OF THE BASIC THINGS HE WILL HAVE TO FACE AT SOME POINT.

THE WAY THESE GUBERNATORIAL CAMPAIGNS USUALLY ROLL OUT YOU GET SOFT TYPE OF EVENTS LIKE THIS IN JUNE AND JULY, DO YOU SOMETHING MORE FORMAL IN AUGUST, AND THEN YOU SHOW UP AT MACKINAW IN LATE SEPTEMBER AND HOPE TO BE CORONATED, AND THAT'S THE STORY HERE, TOO.

IS THE MICHIGAN REPUBLICAN PARTY TRYING TO COORDINATE JAMES CRAIG TO BE ITS NOMINEE.

RON WEISER, THE CHAIRMAN, SAID THAT'S NOT THE CASE.

WE SHOULD NOTE THAT A LITTLE PIECE OF NEWS THIS WEEK FROM LATE LAST FRIDAY, BIG HUGE NEWS DUMP, RON WEISER HAD TO PAY A $200,000 FINE FOR THIS WHOLE INCIDENT INTO 2018 WHERE HE PAID OFF -- AND IT'S DEFINITIVE NOW, NOT AN ALLEGATION -- HE PAID OFF STOCKSTAND GRAUT TO DROP OUT OF THE SECRETARY OF STATE'S OFFICE, HE PAID HIM $200,000.

SIGNED BY THE CHIEF OF STAFF COLIN PEREL, THEY CAME OUT WITH THE SECRETARY OF STATE'S OFFICE, BUT ALL THE DIALS BY WEISER AND THE REPUBLICAN PARTY A FEW MONTHS AGO WHEN LAURA COX, THE FORMER CHAIRWOMAN WENT PUBLIC WITH THIS THAT ALL THE DENIALS DISSOLVED THIS WEEK WHEN WE SAW THIS BREATHTAKING CONTRACT THAT HAD REALLY AN ERA OF OLD SCHOOL POLITICS ATTACHED WITH A GAG ORDER THAT PREVENTED HIM FROM SPEAKING.

YOU HAVE TWO THINGS HERE WHERE WE HAVE EVIDENCE OF RON WEISER PAYING PEOPLE TO DROP OUT OF RACES AND SEEMINGLY PROMOTING JAMES CRAIG TO BE THE POTENTIAL CANDIDATE FOR GOVERNOR.

TIM: NOW LOOKS LIKE THE ATTORNEY GENERAL WILL GET INTO THIS WHICH WILL MAKE IT VERY, VERY INTERESTING.

BASICALLY, I THINK THE CHIEF IS BORROWING A PAGE WHEN HE RAN FOR GOVERNOR.

EVERY LITTLE NEWSPAPER TOWN IN THE WORLD WHERE HE KNEW HE WOULD NOT GET WITH ALL DEFERENCE TO THE NEWSPAPER OUT OF STATE, WOULDN'T GET HARD BALL QUESTIONS, HE TOOK IT ON THE ROAD, GOT HIS LEGS AND CAME BACK TO THE REAL PEOPLE AND TRIED TO MAKE A MOVE.

WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF THE SPEECH, Z?

>> AS CHEYNA SAID, IT HIT EVERY SINGLE POINT THAT IT NEEDED TO.

THERE WERE POINTS THAT THE SENTENCES FELT IT WAS A LITTLE BIT OF A BINGO CARD OF CONSERVATIVE SPEECHES, RIGHT, YEP, CHECK, CHECK, CHECK AND THEN, OF COURSE, I THINK IT WAS TWICE HE FLASHED HE WAS CARRYING, RIGHT, AND TALKED ABOUT THE SECOND AMENDMENT?

LOOK, IT'S INTERESTING WHERE AS THE DYNAMIC AS I TALKED ABOUT EARLIER OF BIDEN TRYING TO SHOW THAT LIFE IS BACK TO NORMAL.

TO ME, THERE WAS SOMETHING ABOUT SEEING THIS SORT OF POLITICAL THEATER, RIGHT, AND RON WEISER THERE, MISHAN MADDOCK IS THERE, THE MAJORITY LEADER IS THERE.

I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY FOLKS SAW JOHN YAUB IS HE OR NOT GOING TO RUN?

YEAH, HE'S THERE.

I THINK IF ANYTHING, THOSE APPEARANCES MADE IT FEEL LIKE IT WAS SUMMER IN MICHIGAN, GETTING BACK TO SORT OF THAT OLD SCHOOL CAMPAIGNING.

YEAH, I THINK IT WAS INTERESTING THAT WEISER WAS BASICALLY LIKE WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A PRIMARY.

I THINK THERE'S BEEN A SENSE FOR A WHILE AMONG FOLKS THAT IS NOT WHAT HE WANTED TO DO.

SO LET'S SEE IF A PRIMARY ACTUALLY HAPPENS OR NOT, OR IF THIS SORT OF ANOINTMENT OF JAMES CRAIG DOES HAPPEN, RIGHT?

I THINK HE'S GOT SOME WORK TO DO TO ANSWER SOME QUESTIONS AND HE HASN'T DONE THAT YET, BUT I ASSUME THAT THEY THINK THERE'S GOING TO BE TIME, AND FOR CONSERVATIVE VOTERS, LET'S NOT FORGET, JAMES CRAIG HAS BEEN ON FOX NEWS IN THE PAST LITTLE BIT, 20 TIMES.

SO IT'S NOT LIKE CONSERVATIVE VOTERS OR VOTERS PLUGGED INTO CONSERVATIVE MEDIA DON'T KNOW WHO JAMES CRAIG IS.

TIM: I DON'T THINK EVERYBODY IN THE REPUBLICAN FIELD HAS READ THE MEMO, SECRET MEMO FROM MR. WEISER IF THERE WAS ONE, SAYING THIS IS THE PERSON WE WANT, OKAY, PLEASE, EVERYBODY TAKE A LONG VACATION.

THIS IS NOT GOING TO BE A CORONATION, CHAD, NOT EVERYBODY IS GOING TO FALL IN LINE AND SAY YES, SIR, LET'S GO WITH THE CHIEF, RIGHT?

>> SURPRISING THAT MISHAN MADDOCK, THE CO-CHAIR OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, ONE OF THE LEADERS OF THE CONSERVATIVE GRASSROOTS MOVEMENT IN MICHIGAN THAT SHE WAS THERE.

SHE HAS TO GO BACK TO THE GRASSROOTS AND EXPLAIN HERSELF A LITTLE BIT.

WHY ARE YOU PALING AROUND WITH WISER AT THIS SEEMINGLY ESTABLISHMENT-ORIENTED EVENT?

NOW JOHN YAUB, THE POLITICAL CONSULTANT DOES -- NOT OFTEN -- PICKS SOMEONE WHO IS NOT THE ESTABLISHMENT PICK.

HE HITCHED HIS WAGON TO RICK SNYDER, EVERYBODY THOUGHT THAT WAS CRAZY, IT'S CLEAR HE'S TRYING TO PLAY A ROLE OF TRYING TO MOVE CRAIG TO THE TOP OF THE LIST.

THE GARRETTS AND THE CONSERVATIVE GRASSROOTS FOLKS RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR OUT THERE, THEY'RE GOING TO BE GOING BACK TO THEIR LITTLE BASES AND QUESTIONING WHY MADDOCK, THE TRUMP REPUBLICAN OF ALL TRUMP REPUBLICANS IS OUT DOING AN EVENT LIKE THIS BEFORE EVEN JAMES CRAIG IS OFFICIALLY A CANDIDATE.

TIM: BEFORE WE CALL IN OUR GUEST, ONE QUICK NOTE, ONE NAME I PICKED UP THIS WEEK OF POSSIBLY LOOKING AT RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR, YOU'RE GOING TO LOVE THIS, BETSY DeVOS, BUT I DID CHECKING.

I DID WHAT GOOD REPORTERS DO, IT'S NOT TRUE.

THE FACT THAT IT WAS OUT THERE UNDERSCORES THE ANGST IN THE RANKS AND FILE OF THE REPUBLICANS, THE OTHERS, THE PLAYERS THAT THIS CRAIG THING IS NOT A DONE DEAL.

LET'S CALL IN FORMER STATE SENATOR TONYA SCHUITMAKER.

GOOD TO SEE YOU.

YOU ARE NOW THE CO-DIRECTOR OF A PROGRAM TO TEACH PEOPLE HOW TO PLAY POLITICS AND GET ELECTED.

WOW.

WHY DID YOU WANT TO DO THAT?

>> WELL, I'M EXCITED.

IT'S A WORLD-CLASS CURRICULUM, I'M EXCITED TO BRING MY EXPERIENCE, BOTH AS A LAWMAKER AND A CITIZEN, TO THE PROGRAM, I BELIEVE I HAVE A LOT TO OFFER.

THE PROGRAM HELPS PEOPLE, NOT ONLY IN POLITICS, BUT ALSO LEADERS IN THEIR COMMUNITY.

IT'S REALLY A LEADERSHIP DEVELOPMENT PROGRAM.

TIM: Z, YOU GOT A QUESTION?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

SO WE WERE TALKING A LITTLE BIT EARLIER, OBVIOUSLY ABOUT ANTRIM COUNTY AND THE MYTHOLOGY OF SOME REPUBLICAN GROUPS THAT ELECTION FRAUD HAPPENED AND OCCURRED AND THAT JOE BIDEN WAS NOT ACTUALLY ELECTED PRESIDENT.

DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THIS PRESIDENT, JOE BIDEN, IS INDEED THE PRESIDENT AND THAT THERE WAS NOT ELECTION FRAUD?

AND AFTER THAT I HAVE A FOLLOW-UP, TOO.

>> WHAT I WOULD HAVE TO SAY ABOUT THAT IS THE CLERKS IN WEST MICHIGAN HAVE HIGH INTEGRITY.

THEY DO THEIR JOBS WELL.

I USED TO SIT ON THE BOARD OF CANVASSERS, SO I KNOW THAT THE VOTE TOTALS IN THE POLL BOOK AS WELL NEED TO MATCH, AND BY THE MOST PART, I BELIEVE IT MATCHES IN MOST COUNTIES.

I WILL SAY THAT THERE WERE PROBLEMS THIS ARE CONCERNING MAYBE OVER IN DETROIT, AND I THINK YOU HEARD MAYOR DUGGAN BEFORE THE 2020 ELECTION AS WELL AS THE LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR GARLAND GILLCREST SUGGEST THERE ARE PROBLEMS IN THE DETROIT AREA AND THE POLL BOOKS NEVER SEEM TO BALANCE OVER THERE.

I'M ENCOURAGED THAT THE SENATE IS TAKING A LEAD ON PACKAGES TO MAKE SURE THAT WE ENSURE VOTER I.D., THAT WE PREREGISTER 16- AND 17-YEAR-OLDS AND A NUMBER OF REFORMS.

>> BUT YOU BELIEVE THAT JOE BIDEN IS INDEED THE ELECTED PRESIDENT?

>> JOE BIDEN IS OUR PRESIDENT.

TIM: CHEYNA?

>> SO YOU'RE GOING TO BE WORKING WITH STUDENTS WHO ARE INTERESTED IN POLITICS, AND MY QUESTION IS: WHAT IS YOUR VIEW ON THE JANUARY INSURRECTION AT THE CAPITOL?

I KNOW THAT DEMOCRATS HAVE BEEN TRYING -- IN MICHIGAN, HAVE BEEN TRYING TO PUT TOGETHER SOME SORT OF COMMITTEE TO LOOK INTO INVOLVEMENT BY MICHIGANDERS.

WHERE DO YOU STAND ON THAT?

A LOT OF REPUBLICANS HAVE BEEN TRYING TO SORT OF MOVE ON FROM THAT AND SAY IT'S OVER, LET'S KEEP GOING.

AS SOMEBODY WHO'S GOING TO BE WORKING WITH STUDENTS, HOW ARE YOU GOING TO TALK ABOUT THAT, AND SHOULD THERE BE MORE INVESTIGATION INTO THAT?

>> WELL, WE'RE A NATION OF LAWS, SO THE PEOPLE THAT BROKE INTO THE CAPITOL AND OBVIOUSLY NEED TO BE PROSECUTED, AND THERE'S -- WE HAVE THREE BRANCHES OF GOVERNMENT, AND THERE'S A BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT TO DEAL WITH THE LAWBREAKERS OF THAT DAY.

I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT, THOUGH, REPUBLICANS LOOK FORWARD AND OFFER SOLUTIONS, SPECIFICALLY FOR THE STATE OF MICHIGAN AND ALSO WHOEVER IS GOING TO BE OUR NOMINEE IN FOUR YEARS FOR PRESIDENT.

TIM: CHAD?

>> TONYA, JUST A LITTLE PERSPECTIVE ON YOUR TIME AND YOUR SERVICE IN THE LEGISLATURE.

HOW ARE YOU FEELING NOW ABOUT OUR SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT?

IS IT WORKING?

HOW WOULD YOU IMPROVE IT?

DO YOU KEEP TERM LIMITS?

GET RID OF THEM?

EXTEND THEM?

WHAT'S SORT OF YOUR POST-OFFICE THOUGHTS ABOUT THIS?

>> WELL, I ACTUALLY HAVE SAID ABOUT TERM LIMITS, FROM THE FIRST TIME I RAN, IS THAT IT WAS A REFERENDUM BY THE PEOPLE, AND SO THE PEOPLE, IF THEY DON'T LIKE TERM LIMITS, THEY SHOULD GET RID OF MICHIGAN'S TERM LIMITS.

I HAD THE BENEFIT OF COMING IN BECAUSE MY PREDECESSOR WAS TERM LIMITED.

I THINK IT WOULD BE SELF-SERVING FOR ANY LAWMAKER TO DECIDE OTHERWISE.

SO I REALLY BELIEVE IT NEEDS TO COME FROM THE PEOPLE TO ADJUST ANY TERM LIMITS.

I WILL SAY, I THINK THAT MY TIME WITH THE LEGISLATURE, I BELIEVE THAT OUR SYSTEM WORKS.

IT'S NOT ALWAYS PERFECT, BY NO MEANS, BUT I DO THINK THAT THE TWO-PARTY SYSTEM WORKS TO COME TOGETHER TO FIND SOLUTIONS FOR EVERYDAY, HARD-WORKING FAMILIES OF MICHIGAN.

TIM: DID YOU SUPPORT TERM LIMITS?

>> GOSH, THAT WAS BACK IN LIKE '93.

I THINK I DID, ACTUALLY.

I PROBABLY MIGHT VOTE DIFFERENTLY TODAY, BUT I THINK I DID VOTE FOR TERM LIMITS.

TIM: SO YOU WERE MISGUIDED ON YOUR FIRST VOTE?

>> I MIGHT HAVE BEEN.

SOMETIMES I AM WRONG, TIM.

TIM: ALL RIGHT, I DO HAVE TO ASK YOU ABOUT DONALD TRUMP, IS HE HURTING OUR DEMOCRACY OR HELPING IT?

>> YOU KNOW, DONALD TRUMP, SOME PEOPLE -- I PERSONALLY THINK HIS POLICIES ARE RIGHT FOR AMERICA.

HIS TONE AND TENOR, OBVIOUSLY, SOME PEOPLE LOVE THAT, SOME PEOPLE HATE IT.

I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND THAT THE TONE AND TENOR THAT I ALWAYS TEAM TO USE, BUT I THINK IF HE IS OUR CANDIDATE IN FOUR YEARS, I THINK IT WILL BE A CONTRAST, I CERTAINLY APPRECIATE THE FACT THAT HE WORKED FOR AMERICA, SECURED THE BORDERS, AND A NUMBER OF OTHER GOOD POLICIES LOWERED THE TAX BURDEN ON AMERICAN FAMILIES, AND SO I THINK THAT'S ALL A GREAT THING FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

TIM: HAVE YOU EVER VOTED FOR A DEMOCRAT?

>> UM, I PROBABLY HAVE NEVER VOTED FOR A DEMOCRAT, EVER.

TIM: THAT'S INTERESTING.

>> I GREW UP IN A SOLID REPUBLICAN BACKGROUND.

THAT'S NOT TO SAY I'M NOT A FREETHINKER, TIM, BUT I ALWAYS GRAVITATE TO THOSE PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN FREEDOM, LOWER TAXES AND PRO-LIFE AND PRO 2nd AMENDMENT.

TIM: YOU NEVER LOOKED SERIOUSLY AT A DEMOCRAT.

YOU VOTE THE PARTY, NOT THE PERSON, IN OTHER WORDS.

>> OH, NO, I ALWAYS VOTE THE PERSON, BUT I FIND THOSE PERSONS ALIGN UP WITH THE REPUBLICAN PLATFORM.

TIM: SO IF BILL MILKEN HAD BEEN ON THE BALLOT, YOU WOULD HAVE VOTED AGAINST HIM?

>> NO, NOT AT ALL.

I WOULD HAVE VOTED FOR BILL MILLIKEN, I REMEMBER GOING TO CONFERENCES BEFORE I WAS OLD ENOUGH TO VOTE AND HEARING BILL MILLIKEN SPEAK.

TIM: CHEYNA, YOU GOT ONE?

>> WHAT IS YOUR POLITICAL LEADERSHIP PROGRAM.

YOU CAN TALK TO US ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE DOING WITH THE NEW POSITION?

>> IT'S A WORLD-CLASS CURRICULUM, I HOPE TO IMPART, IT'S A BIPARTISAN, SO I THINK THE GOAL OF THE MICHIGAN POLITICAL LEADERSHIP IS REALLY TO BRING PEOPLE TOGETHER FOR COMMON SOLUTIONS.

WE LIVE IN A VERY FRACTURED SOCIETY AND THAT'S NOT HELPFUL FOR ANYONE, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU ARE LOOKING AT SOLUTIONS, SO TRY TO BRING PEOPLE TOGETHER TO ADVANCE GOOD PUBLIC POLICY, AND SO THOSE ARE MY GOALS, AND THAT ALIGNS, I THINK, WITH THE GOALS OF THE MPLP PROGRAM.

MY CO-DIRECTOR OF THE PROGRAM IS STEVE TABACHMAN WHO I HAD WORKED WITH IN THE HOUSE.

IT IS A VERY GOOD PROGRAM, ESPECIALLY IN TODAY'S SOCIETY WHERE YOU HAVE PEOPLE COMING, AND I THINK, DRAWING ON MY EXPERIENCE AS AN ATTORNEY AND GOING INTO COURT AND ARGUING CASES, I ALWAYS APPRECIATED IT WHEN PEOPLE DIDN'T TAKE IT TO A PERSONAL LEVEL, AND THEY ARGUED AND STOOD ON THEIR OWN LAURELS AND THE CASE LAW AND TO ARGUE THEIR POINT RATHER THAN TO GET IT VERY PERSONAL, AND I THINK A LOT OF TIMES TODAY, ESPECIALLY IN THIS WORLD THAT WE HAVE OF ELECTRONIC MEDIUM IS THAT PEOPLE GET KEYBOARD COURAGE, AND I THINK DEVELOPING RELATIONSHIPS, HAVING A WAY TO WORK TOGETHER, EVEN THOUGH YOU MIGHT COME FROM DIFFERENT POINTS OF VIEW AND DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE STATE, THERE ARE ROADS AND ISSUES OF SEWERS AND EVERYTHING IS NOT A PARTISAN ISSUE, SO I THINK TO DEVELOP -- TO GET OURSELVES OFF THE TOUCH POINT ISSUES AND FIGURE OUT HOW WE ADVANCE GOOD PUBLIC POLICY, OUR ARE KEY GOALS OF THE PROGRAM.

TIM: ZOE?

>> SENATOR, GOING BACK TO THE TIME OF THE LEGISLATURE, WE WON'T GO BACK TO '93 AND TERM LIMITS, BUT THE LEGISLATURE -- >> IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN '95, TOO.

SO -- [LAUGHTER] >> YOU DID SO, SO MUCH WORK WITH THE SURVIVORS OF LARRY NASSAR, AND SINCE THAT TIME WE'VE HEARD JUST AWFUL, AWFUL STORIES ABOUT ROBERT ANDERSON AND THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN.

DO YOU JUST FEEL LIKE THERE IS SOMETHING INSTITUTIONALLY WRONG RIGHT NOW IN SOCIETY WHEN IT JUST FEELS LIKE THESE STORIES ABOUT ABUSE ARE CONTINUING?

AND I'M CURIOUS ABOUT, YOU KNOW, WHAT YOU'D LIKE TO CONTINUE TO DO BECAUSE YOU WERE SUCH AN ADVOCATE IN YOUR TIME IN OFFICE.

>> I WAS AN ADVOCATE AND IT IS REALLY SAD TO SEE.

ESPECIALLY TO SEE THE LENGTH OF TIME.

WE ALWAYS HAVE PEOPLE THAT ARE JUST TOTALLY HORRENDOUS, BUT TO SEE THE HORRENDOUS ACTIVITY OR CRIME COMMITTED OVER MANY YEARS IS JUST, IT'S AMAZING IN MY POINT.

>> BUT PEOPLE IN POWER KNOWING.

PEOPLE IN POWER KNOWING.

THAT'S WHAT I'M WONDERING, WHERE IS THE SOCIETY?

IS IT A LEGISLATIVE ISSUE?

WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN TO MAKE THIS STOP?

>> WELL, HOPEFULLY, THE FACT THAT THE SURVIVORS HAVE COME THROUGH AND I THINK OUR SOCIETY IS CHANGING THE WAY WE LOOK AT IT, AND SO BRINGING LIGHT TO THE ISSUE, BRINGING THAT IT'S NOT APPROPRIATE, BRINGING THAT, YOU KNOW, JUST THE IDEA THAT, YOU KNOW, OUR BOUNDARIES, I THINK, HAVE GOTTEN A LOT BETTER IN SOCIETY THAN THEY WERE TEN, EVEN FIVE YEARS AGO, SO I HOPE THAT OUT OF THIS TRAGIC SITUATION THAT HAPPENED TO THE NUMEROUS SURVIVORS OF BOTH DOCTORS, THAT THERE IS SOME GOOD THAT COMES OUT OF IT IN TERMS OF THAT THERE'S MORE ACCOUNTABILITY AT OUR UNIVERSITIES, THAT THERE'S MORE ACCOUNTABILITY ON THE PART OF STAFF, THAT IF YOU SEE SOMETHING, YOU KNOW, STOP IT.

SO I THINK A LOT OF GOOD WILL COME OUT OF THE FACT THAT THERE'S SO MUCH MORE PUBLIC KNOWING.

TIM: SENATOR, WE'RE OUT OF TIME.

DID YOU VOTE FOR TOM LEMERT FOR ATTORNEY GENERAL?

>> YES.

TIM: YOU DID?

DID YOU HOLD YOUR NOSE WHEN YOU DID IT?

>> I WON'T SAY THAT, TIM.

TIM: SENATOR, GREAT TO SEE YOU, GOOD LUCK ON YOUR NEW ASSIGNMENT, AND THANKS TO CHEYNA AND Z AND MR. LIVENGOOD.

Z HAVE FUN IN PENNSYLVANIA WITH YOUR GOOD HUSBAND, TELL RICKY I SAID HI.

SEE YOU NEXT TIME ON "OFF THE RECORD."

>> "OFF THE RECORD" IS PRESENTED BY THE FOLLOWING -- FOR MORE "OFF THE RECORD," VISIT WKAR.ORG.

MICHIGAN PUBLIC TELEVISION STATIONS HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO THE PRODUCTION COSTS OF "OFF THE