>> THIS PRODUCTION IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING, BUSINESS LEADERS IN MICHIGAN HAS A STRATEGIC PLAN TO MAKE MICHIGAN A TOP TEN STATE IN THE NATION FOR JOBS, PERSONAL INCOME, AND A HEALTHY ECONOMY, LEARN MORE AT MICHIGAN'S ROAD TO TOP TEN .COM.

NOW THIS EDITION OF OFF THE RECORD.

>> THE END OF JULY IS A BUSY NEWS WE GET OUR TOWN BUT LET'S SAY HELLO TO OUR PANEL EMILY AND JAMES AND DAVID AND BILL IT'S NICE TO HAVE YOU ON BOARD.

WE BEGIN WITH THE PASSING OF CARL LEVIN LAST NIGHT AND WE DIDN'T EXIT INTERVIEW WITH HIM IN 2014 AND FOUND OUT TWO THINGS ABOUT THE SENATOR THAT WE DID NOT KNOW.

NUMBER ONE IS A HE WANTS TO BE A BASKETBALL PLAYER UNTIL THE COACH TOLD HIM HE COULD NOT DO THAT AND THAT HIS MOTHER WANTED HIM TO BE A PIANO PLAYER AND HE TOLD HER HE COULD NOT DO THAT.

HERE IS OUR EXCHANGE.

>> WHAT IS YOUR LEGACY?

>> BELIEVE IT OR NOT I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO GETTING MY DEFENSE BILL PASSED.

THAT IS MY NEXT JOB.

THERE'LL BE PLENTY OF TIME I HOPE TO BE IN GOOD HEALTH BUT I AM NOT STARTING YET.

IT'S TEMPTING TO LOOK BACK PARTICULARLY SITTING WITH YOU BECAUSE YOU AND I GO BACK SO FAR TO LOOK BACKWARDS BUT I AM NOT.

I WILL RESIST THE TEMPTATION.

>> DO YOU WISH THAT YOU HAD PRACTICED THE PIANO MORE?

>> THE WORLD IS BETTER OFF THAT I DID NOT.

>> I WISH I DID PLAY THE PIANO.

MY WIFE IS A TERRIFIC PIANO PLAYER AND THEY LISTEN TO HER PLAYING CHOPIN AND BRAHMS ALMOST EVERY DAY.

>> SENATOR, IT HAS BEEN AN HONOR TO BE WITH YOU.

>> BILL, WHAT DO YOU THINK THE PASSING OF THIS LEGEND?

>> HE WAS THE ALL-TIME RECORD HOLDER U.S.

SENATOR FROM MICHIGAN SIX-YEAR TERM, 36 YEARS, REMEMBER, HE BEGAN BACK IN 1978 HAVING SUCCEEDED HIS BROTHER SANDOR WHO RAN TWICE FOR GOVERNOR AND LOST AND HIS COUSIN CHARLES WAS ON THE SUPREME COURT AND CARL WAS LIKE AN AFTERTHOUGHT TO A LOT OF PEOPLE IN MICHIGAN.

HE WAS THE PRESIDENT OF THE DETROIT CITY COUNCIL AND I DON'T THINK ANYONE EXPECTED HIM FIRST OF ALL TO UPSET AND INCUMBENT U.S.

SENATOR BOB GRIFFIN AND THEN WHEN HE DID, TO LAST AS LONG AS HE DID, AND HE HAD AN INCREDIBLE CAREER.

AND I MAINTAIN LISTENING TO ALL THE DEMOCRATIC POLITICIAN ORDERS OVER THE LAST HALF-CENTURY HE WAS THE BEST DEMOCRATIC SPEAKER I BELIEVE IF YOU HEARD HIM AT STATE CONVENTIONS, YOU DON'T THINK OF HIM THAT WAY BUT HE WAS THE BEST SPEAKER HE HAD IN THE STATE.

>> HE WAS FUN TO COVER.

>> YES I GO BACK TO 1983 WHEN I BEGAN IN MICHIGAN UP IN THE FLINT AND HE SPENT A LOT OF TIME IN FLINT BECAUSE OF AUTO INDUSTRY AND IN THE 80S HE BATTLED REAGAN ECONOMICS IN THE CONGRESS AND THE SENATE BUT I THINK SHE WAS ALSO ALIGNED WITH RONALD REAGAN WITH A STRONG MILITARY.

I THINK THAT IS PART OF THE LEGACY.

YOU ASKED HIM WHAT HIS LEGACY AND IT IS THAT.

AND I HAD THE DISTINCT PLEASURE OF INTERVIEWING HIM LAST YEAR.

MANY PEOPLE MAY NOT REMEMBER THIS BUT HE WAS ONE OF TWO NEGOTIATORS WHO BROKERED THE FLINT WATER CRISIS, $600 MILLION SETTLEMENT AND HE WAS IN THE MIDDLE OF THAT.

>> EMILY A LOT OF PEOPLE GO TO THE U.S. SENATE AND ALL OF A SUDDEN THEY BECOME UNAPPROACHABLE.

YOU COULD NEVER SAY THAT ABOUT CARL RIGHT?

>> NOPE YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD.

HE WAS DEFINED BY THE RELATIONSHIPS HE HAD WITH PEOPLE.

HE WAS WELL RESPECTED IN SO MANY CIRCLES AND CAME TO BE MICHIGAN'S MOST RECOGNIZABLE POLITICIAN FOR A LONG TIME.

HE HAD THE SIGNATURE GLASSES PERCHED ON THE END OF HIS NOSE BUT HE WAS WILLING TO HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH ANYONE AND REALLY I THINK HE IS A GOOD POLITICAL LEGACY AND FRANKLY A POLITICAL DYNASTY HERE IN MICHIGAN.

>> DAVID WHEN YOU ASK A POLICY -- A POLITICIAN ABOUT THEIR LEGACY THEY COULD GO ON FOR DAYS AND DAYS AND HE DIDN'T WANT TO GO THERE ISN'T THAT VINTAGE CARL LEVIN?

>> YES TO YOUR POINT, THAT IS GENERALLY INDICATIVE OF SOMEONE WHO COULD LIST ANY NUMBER OF THINGS TO BE PART OF THEIR LEGACY AND I THINK, FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT INSIDERS OR SOMEONE WHO MAY HAVE JUST SEEN IT, IT WAS A FUNNY STATEMENT THAT HE MENTIONED IN PART THAT HE IS KNOWN FOR HAVING THIS DISHEVELED SUIT AND BEING LIKE HAVING A BUNCH OF BULGING PAPERS UNDER HIS ARM WHILE HE WAS IN CONGRESS AND ONE OF MY COLLEAGUES HAD A FUNNY ANTIDOTE WHILE HE WAS RUNNING FOR CONGRESS AGAIN AND 84 HE WAS RUNNING AGAINST AN ASTRONAUT WHO WAS DESCRIBED AS A TALL HANDSOME REPUBLICAN AND HE TRIED TO POINT OUT THESE DIFFERENCES IN THEIR PHYSICAL ATTRIBUTES AND 11 TOLD THE WASHINGTON POST THAT HE LEANED IN TO HIS PLUMP BALDING AND DISHEVELED LOOK THAT WORKED FOR HIM AND SO I THINK PEOPLE REALLY LIKE THE FACT THAT HE WAS A GENUINE PERSON REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT THEY WERE REPUBLICANS ARE -- OR NOT.

>> I FOUND OUT JIMMY THAT HE WAS WORKING ON THAT SETTLEMENT FOR THE FLINT WATER CRISIS AND SO IT WAS TOUGH TO GET THROUGH TO HIM BUT HE RETURNED MY CALL AND IT TURNED OUT TO BE MY LAST CONVERSATION TOGETHER AND I LOVED HIS SENSE OF HUMOR HE SAID I HEAR YOU ON THE RADIO ALL THE TIME BUT I DON'T LISTEN TO YOU BUT I HEAR YOU.

YOU GET THE DISTINCTION?

AND I MEAN THAT WAS A VINTAGE CARL LIKE OKAY JUST A LITTLE THING WHICH WAS PART OF HIS CHARM TO BARBARA AND SANDY AND THE REST OF THE FAMILY WE SEND OUR WARM REGARDS AND OUR PRAYERS.

WE WILL MISS THIS GUY.

HE WAS INCREDIBLE.

LET'S TALK ABOUT SOMETHING MORE MUNDANE BUT STILL IMPORTANT.

EMILY, THE GOVERNOR IS CHECKING IN ON THE ISSUES FORCED AMENDATORY SHOTS FOR EMPLOYEES.

TWO ARE GOING TO BUT ONE IS NOT WISE THAT?

>> THERE IS A SCATTERSHOT OF PRINCIPALITIES AND ACROSS THE STATE ACROSS THE NATION PURSUING THIS NOW.

WE HAVE SEEN SOME ACTION ON THE FEDERAL FRONT AS WELL AS THAT FEDERAL EMPLOYEES AND I THINK THIS WILL BECOME MORE PRESSING.

OBVIOUSLY SHE IN OTHER STATE LEADERS HAVE RELIED ON THIS SORT OF INCENTIVIZING A PEOPLE TO GET THE VACCINE, THE VACCINE MODERATED I BELIEVE ENDED YESTERDAY.

THE INCENTIVIZING WASN'T PARTICULARLY EFFECTIVE AND ITS ENDING AND I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE ASKING, WHAT IS NEXT?

AND DOES IT NEEDED?

>> JAMES, WHAT IS NEXT?

>> I DON'T THINK WE HAVE SEEN THE END OF THE STORY AT MICHIGAN IF YOU LOOK AT THE U.S. MAP WE ARE STILL IN THE YELLOW WHICH MEANS THE DELTA VARIANT HAS NOT SPREAD AS QUICKLY AROUND HERE AS IT HAS IN OTHER STATES IF IT SHOOTS BACK UP I THINK IT WILL FORCE WHITMER'S HAND TO DO MORE.

WITH OUR PRESIDENT BIDEN SAID YESTERDAY HE WANTS THE STATES TO USE THE FEDERAL FUNDS TO PAY PEOPLE $100 EACH TO GET THE SHOT.

WILL SEE ADOPT THAT?

DOESN'T NEED LEGISLATIVE APPROVAL?

THERE ARE MANY QUESTIONS THERE.

WE HAVE NOT HEARD THE END OF THIS AND EMPLOYERS ARE STRUGGLING WITH THIS AS WELL.

MY EMPLOYER THE PARENT COMPANY OF CHANNEL SEVEN HERE IN DETROIT REIMPOSE THE MASK MANDATE FOR PEOPLE WORKING INSIDE THE STATION.

WE HAVE TO WEAR THESE IF WE GO INTO BUILDINGS NOW DOING OUR JOBS OUT IN THE FIELD WE HAVE TO WEAR THESE WORKING IN THE TRUCKS WITH A -- NEWS PHOTOGRAPHERS.

WE WERE ON A STRUCTURED RETURN BACK TO WORK AND THAT HAS BEEN PUT ON PAUSE.

I THINK THIS IS STILL IN PLAY.

>> LET'S PUT THE NUMBERS IN PERSPECTIVE.

THE COVID ADMISSIONS ARE THE 3 PERCENT OF PATIENTS AND NATIONWIDE ITS 80 PERCENT THAT'S ACTUALLY RIGHT BY THE SAME TOKEN DOCTOR CARL DUNAY SAYS IT WAS ONLY A MATTER OF TIME BEFORE MICHIGAN CAUGHT UP WITH ALL OF THIS.

DAVID, WHEN THE GOVERNOR SHOWS UP WITH A MASK ON HER FACE THAT SENDS A SIGNAL DOESN'T IT?

>> IT DOES AND IF YOU WERE TO SPEAK TO THE REPUBLICANS OR CRITICS THEY WOULD SAY ONE DAY SHE WASN'T WEARING A MASK OF THE NEXT DAY SHE WAS BUT ALL OF US KNOW THIS IS AN EVOLVING SITUATION AND IT'S INVOLVING A VIRUS THAT MUTATES IN IT LITERALLY CHANGES AND DIFFERENCE DEPENDS ON WHERE WE ARE.

>> WE ARE NOT EVEN THE LARGEST OUTBREAK AND THE GOVERNOR WAS ASKED REPEATEDLY AT THE HEALTH DEPARTMENT WOULD ISSUE MORE STRINGENT MANDATES AND THEY DID NOT.

WHILE THERE IS OBVIOUSLY A CHANCE THE STATE COULD BRING BACK A MASK MANDATE THE RESPONSE TO THE DELTA VARIANT I THINK THAT IT IS PERHAPS LOOKING BACK TO FORESHADOW THAT THE GOVERNOR WILL NOT.

HER MESSAGE REALLY SINCE JANUARY, SINCE ROBERT BORDEN LEFT THE HHS HAS BEEN FOCUSED MORE AND PERSONABLE RESPONSIBILITY EITHER ENCOURAGING PEOPLE BUT NOT THE ANYMORE MASK OR ENCOURAGING PEOPLE TO GET VACCINES.

IT COULD TOTALLY CHANGE BUT THE -- DHS AND THE GOVERNOR HAS CHANGED FOR MONTHS.

>> SHE SAID SHE DOES NOT ANTICIPATE WILL EVER GO BACK TO THE RESTRICTIONS, ISN'T THAT A DANGEROUS THING TO SAY?

WHAT IF THE SCIENCE DICTATES THAT THINGS ARE TURNING SOUTH?

>> IT IS DANGEROUS TO A CERTAIN EXTENT BUT SHE CAN SAY IF SHE HAS TO GO BACK TO THE OLD POLICY, LOOK, YOU HEARD ME SAY I DON'T THINK WE WILL HAVE TO GO BACK SO YOU KNOW IT MUST BE REALLY SERIOUS IF I'M ASKING YOU TO GO BACK TO IT.

BUT I AGREE WITH DAVE BOUCHER, I DO NOT THINK SHE WILL GO BACK.

SHE WILL DO EVERYTHING SHE CAN TO AVOID THE POLICY THAT SHE PROMULGATED THE LAST NINE MONTHS OF 2020 I THINK SHE TURN A PAGE IN JANUARY WITH THE DEPARTURE OF GORDON AND I THINK SHE HAS DONE EVERYTHING SHE COULD SINCE THEN TO WALK TO THAT POLICY BACK WITHOUT SEEMING TO CAVE IN.

SHE TALKS THE TALK ABOUT YOU HAVE TO BE SAFE AND DO THIS AND TAKE THE VACCINE BUT I THINK THOSE DAYS ARE OVER WITH HER AND SHE WANTS TO PUT THIS BEHIND HER COMPLETELY.

>> THE DANGEROUS PART OF THE STORY FROM A POLITICAL STANDPOINT IS THE LONGER THAT WE GO INTO THIS YEAR AND GET CLOSER TO NEXT YEAR DECISIONS ON THE COVID TO BECOME A LITTLE BIT MORE DICEY.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THAT'S ANOTHER FACTOR WEIGHING IN HER MIND.

SHE TOOK A LOT OF HEAT ESPECIALLY FROM THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY RESTAURANTS AND BARS HOSPITALITY FOR THE LOCKDOWNS THAT WE WENT THROUGH LAST WINTER.

MONTHS OF LOCK DOWNS WHILE OHIO WAS STILL OPEN.

I'M HERE IN DETROIT AND I TOLD YOU BEFORE ALL -- WHILE WE WERE LOCKED ON IN MICHIGAN I DROVE DOWN TO TOLEDO TO HAVE DINNER OUT AND I NEVER GOT COVID KNOCK ON WOOD.

THAT'S CLEARLY IN HER MIND THAT SHE IS PLAYING THAT MIDDLE GROUND IN NEXT YEAR'S ELECTION ASSUMING SHE IS RUNNING AND THAT SHE DOES NOT WANT TO UPSET THOSE PEOPLE.

>> YOU WENT TO TOLEDO, SHAME ON YOU.

OF ALL PLACES.

WHY DIDN'T YOU GO TO FORT WAYNE OR SOMETHING.

>> YOU DO WHAT YOU HAVE TO DEAL.

>> TALK TO ME ABOUT CAMPAIGN FINANCE REPORTS THROUGHOUT THIS WEEK ONE THING WE KNOW ABOUT OUR BUSINESS RAISING MONEY APPARENTLY IS A GROWTH INDUSTRY IN OUR STATE ISN'T IT?

>> YES TO NO SURPRISE EVERYONE HAS LOTS OF MONEY.

SOME PEOPLE HAVE MORE MONEY THAN OTHERS BUT IF WE LOOK AT THE GOVERNOR'S RACE THEY ANNOUNCED A TON OF MONEY THERE IS A DEBATE ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT SHE FOLLOWED THE LETTER OF THE LAW OR COMPLETELY IGNORED AND BLEW PAST CAMPAIGN FINANCE LIMITS FOR INDIVIDUALS BUT I THINK MOST DON'T CARE, MAYBE THEY DO BUT AT THE END OF THE DATE NO ONE WILL BE SURPRISED WHEN THERE IS JUST A TON OF MONEY THAT COMES IN EITHER FROM THE CAMPAIGN OR OUTSIDE SPENDERS ON THIS RACE, ON THE GOVERNOR'S RACE.

CLEARLY THE GOVERNOR IS OUT TO A HUGE FINANCIAL EDGE IN THIS RACE.

REPUBLICANS WILL STILL SPEND A TON OF MONEY ON WHOEVER THEIR CANDIDATE IS AND THE STATE LEGISLATIVE LEVEL, AGAIN, EVERYONE HAS A FAIR AMOUNT OF MONEY TO GET READY FOR THE NEXT ELECTION STATE.

>> EMILY WHAT WERE YOU WRITING ABOUT ON M LIVE ABOUT THIS CAMPAIGN FINANCE?

>> THE JUMBO CONTRIBUTIONS FROM WITMER THAT'S THE TERM I AM GOING WITH.

THE NORMAL CONTRIBUTION WOULD BE $7,150 AND THAT IS THE LETTER OF THE LAW BUT SHE IS RELYING ON THESE DECLARATORY RULINGS FROM THE -- FROM BEFORE I WAS BORN TO TALK ABOUT HOW SHE CAN TAKE BIGGER CONTRIBUTIONS THAN THAT BECAUSE SHE IS FACING AN ACTIVE RECALL AND PEOPLE HAVE SAID OF COURSE THAT THE RECALLS AGAINST HER DO NOT SEEM PARTICULARLY BOISTEROUS OR POISED FOR SUCCESS AND SOME HAVE ALREADY PUBLICLY FOLDED IT AND YOU NEED A HUGE AMOUNT OF EFFORT TO GET SOMETHING LIKE THAT OFF THE GROUND BUT THE OTHER THING I WAS LOOKING AT FROM THE CAMPAIGN FINANCE REPORT WAS GARRETT'S HOLD ON NOW FROM THE REPUBLICAN FIELD IT WAS JUST BELOW AND BLEW EVERYONE ELSE OF THE WATER HE GOT CLOSE TO FIVE OR SIX TIMES MORE MONEY THEN THE NEXT CLOSEST PERSON ALMOST $625,000 AND SO THAT GAVE ME AN INDICATION THAT THIS IS SUCH A VARIED DEAL RIGHT NOW THERE IS NO LEGACY POLITICIAN OBVIOUSLY JAMES IS ON THE EXPLORATORY COMMISSION DEBATING UPON WHETHER THAT'S A THING BUT IT'S A CANDIDATE COMMITTEE THAT'S CALLED AN EXPLORATORY COMMITTEE AND HIS FUNDRAISING REPORTS WERE NOT DUE YET BECAUSE IT WAS SO RECENT.

BUT IN TERMS OF TRYING TO SEPARATE OUT THAT FIELD I THINK GARRETT SALDANA NOW CERTAINLY SEPARATED HIMSELF FROM THE OTHER CANDIDATES IN THE RACE WITH THAT FUNDRAISING REPORT.

>> BILL, WHAT WAS YOUR TAKE ON IT?

>> IT WOULD BE THE GRETCHEN WHITMORE BUSTING THROUGH THE SPENDING CAP STORY.

IMAGINE IF THIS STANDS ANYONE COULD GET OUT ON A STREET CORNER AN TO SAY I AM STARTING A RECALL CAMPAIGN AGAINST SO-AND-SO AND IF THAT PERSON IS AN INCUMBENT IMMEDIATELY THEY ARE OFF TO THE RACES RAISING MILLIONS OF DOLLARS MY PREDICTION IS THAT THIS WILL NOT STAND.

IT'S GOING GET THROWN UP BY THE COURTS AND DICK AUSTIN WILL HAVE A DECLARATORY RULING FROM NEARLY 40 YEARS AGO IT HAS NEVER BEEN CHALLENGED IN COURT IT IS PATENTLY UNFAIR OBVIOUSLY FOR THE GOVERNOR AND ANYONE ELSE IN OFFICE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIS AND IT WAS A LAW OF UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES AND I THINK IT WILL BE DONE AWAY WITH.

>> LET'S TALK IN A SECOND ABOUT THE COUNTY SHERIFF WHO WILL BE MADE BE RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR LET'S LOOK AT THE SENATE PIECE AND WE WILL COME BACK TO YOU.

>> CHRIS SWANSON MADE NATIONAL HEADLINES WHEN IN THE WAKE OF THE GEORGE FLOYD MURDER PITCHED HIS RIOT GEAR AND JOIN THE BLACK LIVES MATTER DEMONSTRATION THAN THE SHERIFF ALSO MADE STATEWIDE HEADLINES WHEN HE REFUSED TO ENFORCE GOVERNOR WITMER IS A LOCKDOWN OF THE ENTIRE STATE.

NOW THE 47-YEAR-OLD WITH 27 YEARS IN THE SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT IS MAKING MORE POLITICAL NEWS BY REFUSING TO TAKE HIMSELF OUT OF A POSSIBLE BID FOR GOVERNOR.

IF HE WERE TO GET IN IT WOULD BE UNPRECEDENTED FOR A CANDIDATE FROM THE SAME PARTY TO CHALLENGE A SITTING GOVERNOR.

HERE IS WHAT THE SHERIFF IS TELLING US, I GET ASKED THAT QUESTION ABOUT RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR EVERY DAY.

IT IS FLATTERING.

IS HE RUNNING?

HE SAID I HAVE NOT MADE A DECISION BUT BY SAYING THAT HE IMPLIES THAT HE DOES HAVE A DECISION TO MAKE ON THE ISSUE OTHERWISE HE WOULD HAVE SAID I AM NOT RUNNING.

AS HE RULED OUT A BID FOR GOVERNOR?

HE SAID IT WOULD BE FAIR TO SAY THAT.

THE INCUMBENT GOVERNOR WOULD BE TOUGH TO DEFEAT THE DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY.

OUR POLLSTER HAS THIS TAKE ON A POSSIBLE SWANSON CHALLENGE TO THE GOVERNOR.

>> WHY WOULD HE DO SUCH A THING WHEN THE GOVERNOR HAS A 90 PERCENT FAVORABILITY RATING AMONGST DEMOCRATS.

>> WOULD YOU SAY THIS POTENTIAL CANDIDACY IS A FOOLS ERRAND?

>> I THINK SO.

>> IF THERE WAS A DEMOCRATIC CHALLENGER THE GOVERNOR WOULD HAVE TO SPEND MONEY TO WIN LEAVING IF YOU IN THE GENERAL ELECTION AGAINST REPUBLICANS AND EVEN FURTHER OTHERS WOULD LIKELY ALLEGE THAT THE GOVERNOR IS SO WEAK THAT EVEN A FELLOW DEMOCRAT IS THINKING ABOUT TAKING HER ON.

>> IS ALWAYS A PROBLEM WITH AN INCUMBENT GOVERNOR IF THEY HAVE OPPOSITION FROM THEIR OWN PARTY.

DEMOCRATS PROBABLY WILL HAVE SOME HEART-TO-HEART DISCUSSIONS WITH THE SHERIFF AND PROBABLY TRY TO DISCOURAGE HIM FROM DOING SO.

>> HE'S PLAYING INTO THE REPUBLICAN'S HANDS APPEAR >> THAT IS TRUE.

>> WITMER SUPPORTERS WILL BE KNOWN TOO HAPPY WITH THE COUNTY SHERIFF.

>> WHEN YOU FIRST HEARD THIS STORY YOU MUST HAVE DONE WHAT?

>> I KNEW IT WAS OUT THERE.

I HAVE KNOWN CHRIS SWANSON HIS ENTIRE LAW ENFORCEMENT CAREER I SPENT 23 YEARS UP IN FLINT.

I CALLED HIM EARLIER TODAY AND TOLD HIM I AM DOING THE SHOW AND WE HAD A NICE CONVERSATION AND I WANT TO SPEAK ACCURATELY I TOOK A FEW NOTES FROM THE CONVERSATION.

>> REMEMBER IT'S A FAMILY PROGRAM.

>> I SAID THERE WAS A STORY FOR YOU AND HE SAID YES AND IT REALLY GENERATED THE INTEREST.

>> I SAID ARE YOU WALKING ANYTHING BACK?

>> HE SAID NOW I WANT TO CLARIFY I HAVE HAD IT MADE NO DECISIONS I DON'T KNOW IF I WILL RUN AGAINST WHITMORE ARE NOT I SAID YOU'RE TAKING HEAT FROM THE PARTY FOR DOING THIS AND PUTTING THIS OUT THERE AND HE SAID I KNOW.

HE SAID THE BOTTOM LINE IS IT'S A LONG-TERM PLAY FOR HIM HE WANTS TO KNOW IS WITMER RUNNING OR NOT IF SHE DOES NOT RUN THERE'S AN OPPORTUNITY THERE BUT HE STILL HAS NOT MADE ANY DECISIONS.

>> WILLIAM, YOU ARE FROM FLINT.

>> SHE INDICATED THE OTHER DAY TALKING ABOUT HER FUTURE SAYING IN MY SECOND TERM AND WITH A DEMOCRATIC LEGISLATURE WITH I HOPE WE HAVE ONCE WE GET RID OF GERRYMANDERING FROM THE COMMITTEE AND SO I THINK SHE IS LOOKING PRETTY STRONG AS A CANDIDATE FOR REELECTION AND SO HIS EXCUSE IS I JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT SHE ACTUALLY IS RUNNING AND I WILL BE IN PLACE IF SHE IS NOT I DON'T THINK THAT REALLY SOUNDS PLAUSIBLE AND I THINK IT IS A LITTLE BIT DANGEROUS FOR HIM AND HIS POLITICAL FUTURE WITH HIS OWN PARTY TO GET THIS FAR OUT ON A LIMB.

>> DANGEROUS?

SOME WOULD SAY IT'S A KAMIKAZE MISSION.

>> YOU COULD SAY THAT.

ABSOLUTELY.

LOOK, THE GUY IS CHARMING HE HAS A FUTURE POLITICALLY NO QUESTION ABOUT IT BUT WHY HE WOULD DO THIS, UNLESS MAYBE HE IT'S THE JAYNE MANSFIELD PHILOSOPHY OF ALL NEWS IS GOOD NEWS JUST SPELL MY NAME RIGHT.

>> DAVID, WHAT DID YOU THINK?

>> I THINK IT'S BETTER WHEN OTHER PEOPLE GET TO RUN.

THERE'S POLITICS INVOLVED BUT IF YOU'RE SERVING THE BEST INTEREST OF THE VOTERS IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE PEOPLE THAN OPTIONS TEND TO BE A GOOD THING BUT IN REALITY OF COURSE THE GOVERNOR HAS ALREADY RAISED MORE MONEY NOW THAN SHE HAS A HER ENTIRE LAST PSYCHOLOGY -- LAST CYCLE AND SHE IS THE INCUMBENT.

SHE WILL HAVE PLENTY OF MONEY TO RUN AGAINST ANY REPUBLICAN EVEN IF SHE SPENDS A LITTLE BIT SHE WILL GET A TON MORE FROM NATIONAL DEMOCRATS BUT THERE IS NOTHING IN THEORY WRONG WITH SOMEBODY CHALLENGING YOU FROM WITH IN A PARTY AND MAKING YOU AS A CANDIDATE HAVING TO DEFEND YOUR STANCES AS A PARTY FAVORITE AND THAT'S A DEMOCRAT -- AND THAT THE STANDARD PROCEDURES.

DEMOCRATS GOT MAD ABOUT DEMOCRATS TALKING ABOUT POLITICS AND THAT THE STRANGE STANCE.

>> HIS POLITICAL FUTURE IS THE STORY.

I PROFILED HIM AS ONE OF MY PEOPLE WHO WERE HUGE NEWSMAKERS IN 2020.

HE HAD THE RECORD WHICH YOU SHOWED FOOTAGE OF HIM JOINING THE PROTESTERS AFTER GEORGE FLOYD KILLING AND STOPPED FLINT FROM BEING ONE OF THE STORES ON THE NATIONAL NEWS.

HE REALLY READ HIS COMMUNITY WRITE AND READ THAT MOMENT RIGHT I THINK IN THAT KIND OF INTUITION WILL GET YOU PRETTY FAR IN THE POLITICAL WORLD.

DO I HE COULD GO UP AGAINST WITMER WITH A 10 MILLION-DOLLAR WARCHEST AT THIS POINT IN TIME?

NOW WHAT DO I THINK IT'S RIGHT FOR US TO TALK ABOUT HIM AND HIS POLITICAL FUTURE IN SOME SENSE?

YES I'M GLAD WE GAVE HIM OUR TIME.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT FAIR AND EQUAL WHICH IS HANGING BY A THREAD THE COURTS HAVE TO SAY THAT THE 18,000 SIGNATURES THEY COLLECTED ELECTRONICALLY SHOULD BE COUNTED.

WHAT WENT ON WITH THE STORY THIS WEEK?

>> WHAT WENT ON WAS THAT THE BOARD OF STATE CANVASSERS LOOKED AT EVERYTHING AGAIN AND IT UNANIMOUSLY AGREED ALTHOUGH THE DEMOCRATS AND THE REPUBLICANS SAID THAT THIS DID NOT QUALIFY FOR THE INITIATIVE PETITION SENT TO THE LEGISLATURE AND SO YOU KNOW THE FAIR AND EQUAL PEOPLE SAID WE ALL TAKE IT TO COURT.

WHAT ELSE IS NEW?

THIS IS THE LATEST BATTLE IN COURT OVER A DECISION BY THE BOARD OF STATE CANVASSERS ON HOW MANY ISSUES CAN WE POINT TO YOU OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS AND THEY CAME UP WITH ARGUMENTS THAT WE HAVE NEVER HEARD BEFORE ON ELECTRONIC SIGNATURES AS YOU POINTED OUT AND SO SOME COURT IS GOING TO HAVE TO SORT THIS OUT.

MY PREDICTION IS THAT THIS THING WILL NOT BE APPROVED IN THE FINAL ANALYSIS.

IT WILL NOT GO TO THE LEGISLATURE AND REPUBLICAN MAJORITIES WILL READ A SIGH OF RELIEF.

>> THE LEGAL HOOK THAT THEY'RE PUTTING THIS THING ON IS THAT THE LEGISLATURE HAS SAID DURING THE PANDEMIC THAT ELECTRONIC SIGNATURES ARE GOOD AND KOSHER ON LEGAL DOCUMENTS ERGO, OUR PETITION SIGNATURES ARE LEGAL DOCUMENT, PEOPLE DID ELECT IT.

THIS IS LEGAL.

>> YOU ARE RIGHT TO YOUR POINT THE PANDEMIC HAS RESULTED IN NEW CHALLENGES AND INTERPRETATIONS OF WHAT WE CAN AND CANNOT DO IN ANY FACET OF OUR LIVES AND I DO THINK TO BILL'S HAS COME BEFORE THE LEGISLATURE FOR YEARS AND IT HAS NOT COME UP FOR A OBVIOUSLY, THE WHOLE INTENTION OF THIS IS THAT THE ORGANIZERS ARE CONFIDENT IF IT WENT BEFORE VOTERS THAT IT WOULD BE OVERWHELMINGLY APPROVED.

THIS IS ANOTHER TOPIC THAT THE GENERAL PUBLIC GETS FRUSTRATED WITH BECAUSE THIS IS VERY BUREAUCRATIC AND VERY PEDANTIC AND IN THEORY LAWMAKERS COULD JUST TAKEN UP OR DOWN VOTE ON THIS ISSUE OR LET IT GO TO THE VOTERS AND INSTEAD THERE IS A PROCEDURAL BATTLE OVER THE VERACITY OF ELECTRONIC SIGNATURES WHICH AGAIN, FRUSTRATES PEOPLE AND THE HEART OF THIS ISSUE SHOULD NOT BE LOST THIS IS A FAIRNESS SUPPORTERS BELIEVE IN THIS AND IT IS GETTING BOGGED DOWN AGAIN IN PROCEDURAL MUMBO-JUMBO.

>> WHAT ABOUT MS. BENSON AND THE AUDITOR GENERAL WHO APPEARED TO BE AT ODDS OVER WHETHER WE HAVE A LEGAL ELECTION ARE NOT IN MICHIGAN?

>> SHE SOUGHT OUT THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OPINION ABOUT THE REACH OF THE AUDITOR GENERAL SHE DOES NOT WANT THEM GETTING RECORDS FROM CITIES AND TOWNSHIPS COUNTY COURTS WHERE THE ELECTIONS WERE HELD HELD AND SHE IS WANTING THAT BLOCKED AND SHE SAYS IT COULD BE AN OVERREACH BY THE AUDITOR GENERAL AND I THINK THIS OPENS THE DOOR TO REPUBLICANS AND THE TRUMP SUPPORTERS GIVING THEM ANOTHER OPPORTUNITY TO SAY THE ELECTION WAS FRAUDULENT HERE IN MICHIGAN AND IF WE DON'T DO THIS AUDITOR GENERAL REPORT IT'S A COVER SO HERE WE GO AGAIN AND THAT'S AFTER THE ED MCBROOM REPORT THAT CAME OUT IN JUNE WITH 55 PAGES AND THE DISCUSSION AND THE DEBATE ABOUT THE ELECTION GOES ON THIS IS THE LATEST CHAPTER.

>> EMILY, WHAT IS THE STATUS WITH THE STUFF IN THE LEGISLATURE ON THESE PROPOSALS?

THEY WILL EVENTUALLY PUT THEIR STAMP OF APPROVAL ON ALL OF THE QUOTE AND QUOTE REFORMS.

>> I THINK THEY ARE MAKING SOME OF THIS AND THEY WOULD NOT BE SURPRISED IF PART OF THE OPPOSITION TO THE ATTORNEY GENERAL ISSUANCE IS THAT IT WILL JUST DRAW THIS ISSUE OUT FOR LONGER AND LONGER WE HAVE SEEN PEOPLE TAKE ISSUE WITH THESE ELECTIONS AND THE DAY AFTER OR THE NIGHT OF PERHAPS AND CERTAINLY DON'T WANT TO BE DEALING WITH THAT TWO YEARS FROM NOW AND THE AUDITOR GENERAL REPORT WOULD CERTAINLY GIVE IT MORE LIFE.

>> THINK YOU GROUP FOR BEING ON EMILY WAS ON OUR VERY FIRST ZOOM CAST BACK IN 1932, A LONG TIME AGO, AND HOPEFULLY YOU'RE ON THE LAST ONE WE WILL BE BACK IN STUDIO WITH OFF THE RECORD LIVE.

UNTIL THEN, EVERYONE HAVE A SAFE WEEKEND.

>> IN THIS PRODUCTION IS MADE POSSIBLE IMPORT BY BUSINESS LEADERS IN MICHIGAN WITH THE STRATEGIC PLAN TO MAKE MICHIGAN A TOP TEN STATE IN MICHIGAN FOR JOBS, PERSONAL INCOME AND HEALTHY ECONOMY.

TO LEARN MORE AT MICHIGAN'S ROAD TO TOP TEN .COM.

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