Narrator> In the 1890s, this young Englishwoman often wrote letters to children she knew.

She sometimes included stories illustrated with tiny sketches.

In 1893, she sent a story letter to Noel Moore, the five year old son of her former governess.

He loved the funny stories she'd made up about some unusual rabbits.

Seven years later, the woman made the story into a small book, The Tale of Peter Rabbit.

Because she believed in sharing her time and talents with children.

This program is dedicated to Beatrix Potter.

♪ Oh I can believe ♪ ♪ in everything I read ♪ ♪ A little boy blue ♪ ♪ a lady with a shoe ♪ ♪ and a dish run off ♪ with a spoon ♪ ♪ Well Hickory Dickory Dock ♪ ♪ a scholar ♪ he's late to school ♪ ♪ And I like a cow ♪ ♪ I jump over the moon ♪ ♪ Rick> These students are coming to their school's library to share a picture book.

The librarian has already selected a book for today's session, and she's ready to welcome the visitors.

Regina> We're all settled for storytime and everybody can see and hear.

And we're ready for our story today.

And I picked out a book to read to you about a mother and her little son.

And they have a problem.

You will find out what that is.

Some of you have heard about Katy No Pocket , haven't you?

Some of you have.

And then maybe you haven't heard it and this will be your first time to hear it today.

It's one of my favorite books and a lot of children like the story of Katy No Pocket .

Katy No Pocket was written by Emmy Payne, and a man named Mr.

Rey did the drawings, the illustrations in the book.

Regina reading> Big tears roll down Katy Kangaroo's brown face.

Poor Katy was crying because she didn't have a pocket like other mother kangaroos.

Freddie was Katy Kangaroo's little boy and he needed a pocket to ride in.

All grown up kangaroos take awfully big hops and little kangaroos like Freddy get left far behind unless their mothers have nice pockets to carry them in.

And poor Katy didn't have any pocket at all.

Katy Kangaroo cried just thinking about it, and Freddie cried too.

Then all of a sudden Katy had a wonderful idea.

It was so wonderful, she jumped six feet up in the air.

The idea was this, other animal mothers had children and they didn't have any pockets.

She'd go and ask one of them how they carried their babies.

Freddie looked all around to see whom to ask, and Katy looked all around to see too.

And what they both saw were two bubbles rising up from the river right beside them.

"Ms.

Crocodile," said Katy, feeling lots better already.

"She hasn't any pocket.

Let's ask her."

A lot of big muddy bubbles came up through the water, and then Ms.

Crocodile stuck her head up and opened her enormous mouth and smiled.

"Why, Katy Kangaroo, what can I do for you today?"

"Please, Ms.

Crocodile, I am so sad, said Katy.

I have no pocket, and Freddie has to walk wherever we go, and he gets so tired.

Oh dear, oh dear."

And she started to cry again.

The crocodile began to cry too.

And then she said, "But, but what can I do?"

"You can tell me how to carry Freddie," said Katy.

"How do you carry little Catherine, crocodile?

Oh, do please tell me."

"Why I carry her on my back, of course," said Ms.

Crocodile.

She was so surprised that anyone shouldn't know that.

That she forgot to cry anymore.

Katy was pleased.

She said, "thank you."

And as soon as she got to a good squatting down place, she squatted and said, "Now Freddie, climb on my back.

After this it will be so simple, no trouble at all."

But it wasn't simple.

In the first place, Freddie could not crawl up onto her back because his knees stuck out.

And he couldn't hang on because his front legs were too short.

And when he did manage to hang on for a few minutes and Katy gave a long hop, he fell off, bump, bang, with a terrific bump.

So Katy saw that she couldn't carry her baby on her back.

Katy and Freddie sat down again and thought and thought, "I know, I'll ask Ms.

Monkey.

I'm sure she can help me."

So Katy and Freddie set off for the forest, and very soon they found Ms.

Monkey.

She had her young son Jocko with her.

Katy Kangaroo hurried so to catch up with her that she was almost out of breath.

But finally she managed to squeak.

Rick> The sharing of picture books with young children.

It's not as easy as it may appear at first.

Librarians, teachers and other people who work with children know that the problems involved are many.

Today, we're going to look at various ways to share picture books, and we're going to discuss the process of selecting books for sharing.

To help us, we're happy to have as our special guest, Ms.

Augusta Baker.

She is perhaps best known as one of America's foremost storytellers.

She is likewise a distinguished librarian, educator, author, and folklorist who has devoted most of her adult life to the advancement of children's literature.

She's also shared a lot of picture books with a lot of children.

Welcome.

Augusta> Nice to be here, Rick.

Rick> Probably the best way to start this discussion is to talk for a few minutes about the tape we've just seen.

What was going on?

You know, what was happening, that was right?

Augusta> Well, this librarian, Ms.

Moody, is very, very good.

You'll notice, for instance, that there's a certain quietness about her so that when the children came in, she set the tone for the whole- And it's a little program.

She set the tone for the little program.

She welcomed them with dignity.

And that... that brought that kind of response from them.

She also has a very lovely voice.

I like to hear Regina Moody's voice, again is quiet, there's a rhythmic flowing to it.

She knew her story so that when she read the story, she did not have to, what I call dye in the book.

You see, she, there was the contact with the children.

So if you notice, she glanced at the book, picked up the few words, but at the same time she looked at those children, and she took them in so that they felt, drawn inside of the story.

And it was a good story.

Rick> It was.

How about the way she's holding the book?

Augusta> The... many ways of holding the book.

I think actually, what happens is that the person telling the story or reading the story does it the way in which it's most comfortable for him.

But at the same time, it has to be very comfortable for the children.

Now you will also notice that the... the children were seated.

Not, not what I call far flung.

You know sometimes they'll, you'll have 20 children and they'll spread them all out 20 children.

But that means that you are moving that picture book around so that the child over here can see the picture, and the child over here then can see the picture.

I would prefer a smaller, more compact group, say two rows of ten.

And she had two rows and even some children in front.

But she didn't have to move her book... you see that much.

All of those children then could see those pictures while she was telling the story.

And the pictures are very important to the story.

Rick> How different is it, to tell a story as opposed to to sharing a picture book?

Well, when you share the picture book and this you do with the, the youngest group.

These children need a little help, with, with visualization, this kind of thing.

So, that they're looking at the pictures and they're listening at the story, and they're relating those pictures to the story.

When you tell a story without pictures, it means that the child must be old enough to visualize what's being said.

He makes up his own pictures in his head.

Now, what his pictures are shouldn't really disturb us.

I tell a story of the crab and the jaguar, and the 30 children can have 30... mental pictures of a jaguar, but they have some kind of picture in their mind.

They know he's a cat, and they follow along with it.

Rick> Well, how much does the age of the group affect the book that you select?

Oh, that's very, very important.

Rick> How so?

Augusta> Well, now, if the text is too difficult.

If the understanding of it is too difficult.

And you can have one, one person, I think of Dr.

Seuss, for instance, his little book, And to Think That I Saw it on Mulberry Street .

The, the even... two and a half year olds enjoy that.

Three year old, enjoy it.

The King's Stilts his story, his pictures.

That's far too advanced for them.

But because it is a picture book, there are people who will then try to read that story with those pictures.

To those little two and a half year olds, three year olds, and they would get restless.

And they wouldn't understand that it was because of the, the wrong selection.

Little children like, everyday happenings, you know, I mean, what's more exciting than the dump truck?

Rick> Well, what exactly is the purpose of sharing a picture book?

What does it accomplish?

Why do you do it?

Augusta> Well, for one thing, it introduces books to children.

They become aware of rhythm, of the sound of words.

That's the reason why the text is important.

They, they begin to be aware that there's something awfully exciting coming out of this thing that's being held.

And I say, parents, because I believe that parents should begin doing this... practically at birth.

The pictures are so important because for many children, this is an introduction to art appreciation.

There are children all over this country who have no access to art galleries or to museums or this kind of thing.

And they are introduction to really good art by an artist through the picture book.

Rick> Is there any limit to how long a session can last?

Augusta> Oh, yeah.

It's... the attention span of small children is very, very short.

Ten minutes, maybe twelve minutes.

And then as the child, or the group of children, as they become used to this kind of thing, you'll find that they can take more and they can take a little more and they can take a little more.

But, should never be imposed upon them.

They should want this.

Rick> How can you, can you take a book and split it up, maybe then into several sessions?

Augusta> I have not found this to be too successful with the small children.

And you don't need to.

Because the picture book is what a few seconds maybe, long.

Now if you're talking about reading aloud and you're moving into the middle age children or the, the older children or the families sharing in this kind of thing, then there are many books where you can read a chapter, read a chapter at a time.

And they have the, the ability to remember what happened the last time that you were read.

We used to do this in the library where I worked, and we would do it every day and we had a set time.

And in the summertime we'd say to the children now every day at 4 o'clock we are going to read one chapter of... say Wind in the Willows .

And those children would come in- You know, it was like the, you see Rick, you're not old enough- But I can remember being taken to the movie serials, where you had to remember what happened the last week.

The Perils of Pauline .

Rick> Right.

[laughter] Augusta> Well, that's, the same principle.

Rick> How different is it at home, say, sharing a picture book?

Obviously, you don't have to hold it up- Augusta> No.

Rick> Such a formal fashion.

Augusta> No, I think it should be very informal, very comfortable.

And here again, parents begin to... to be sensitive to the reactions of the children.

It should not be- I don't feel a specific time, you know, now.

"All right now, it's 8 o'clock so it's time now for our reading."

And, and Johnny... doesn't want to be read to that night, you see, so.

But he doesn't dare say "I don't want to hear any stories tonight" because Mama's bustling around now, and Daddy, because the book on parenting says this must go on every night.

And, so the only thing Johnny can do is to take off his shoes and wriggle and jiggle and stretch out.

And then you see, Mama, they're going to fuss with him for not listening.

Then it becomes almost an unpleasant experience.

Rick> Well, how is it different than, say, watching stories on television?

Augusta> Well, nowadays, I, I can tell from my, my own grandchildren I think television, when it first started, was, it was so new and so different that it had almost a mesmerizing and had a hypnotizing effect, not only on children, but on adults, you know.

Don't just say on children.

But you'll notice, again, children, if it's a program and it can be a children's program, if it's not interesting, they get up and leave.

They don't have to sit right there and look at that.

Rick> Are there any problems or, things that you've known to come up, in a session of sharing a picture book?

Problems with kids that, you know, a teacher should be ready to handle?

Augusta> Well, I think, you have to be aware of the of the restless child.

You have to know how to handle it.

And I think the one thing is to prepare children.

Now, if we're moving back to working, storyteller working with the group, I believe that even small children can understand what they're supposed to do when they are told ahead of time.

And so before such a program begins, my feeling is that they should be prepared for this.

Now, this is something very special.

And, this is this is for listening.

And so "we're all going to listen now.

We're going to look at the pictures.

And we're going to listen to the story.

And then we're going to have time to talk about it afterwards."

That holds down that the interruption.

I'm very wary in a group... of starting out asking questions.

"Today the story is going to be millions of cats.

How many of us have cats?"

"I have a cat."

"I have a black and white cat at home."

"Oh, you do Johnny.

Well, isn't that nice?"

Well, then, 29 others have cats.

And so your listening experience goes down the drain and it turns to show and tell.

My way of handling it- But that one who speaks up without the question.

"Oh, that's fine, Johnny.

We'll, we'll, talk about that afterwards."

And go right into the story.

And the story then catches them.

Now, talk about it afterwards if you promise to do this.

Rick> Well, is there any special trick to selecting books to share?

Augusta> Well, you know, they say there are three kinds of picture books.

One the, the one with a strong storyline.

The mood kind of picture book.

And the picture book, which, calls for action.

The ABC book, the counting book and this kind of thing.

And for a program, when you're working with a group, it's best, I think to stick with the, the ones that have, storylines to them.

Now the, the picture book without words like that... what is that... that's the Wildsmith book, The Circus .

And, Brian does- Oh, look at those pictures.

Aren't they- They're magnificent.

There's no text.

Rick> Uh-huh.

Augusta> I don't, I would never use this in a program.

Rick> Why not?

Augusta> Well, you're going to make up a story.

I mean, that's that's human nature.

You have these little children, and, either they are going to start talking and, and explaining or you are going to do this kind of, "Oh my goodness, boys and girls.

Now you see, there, look at the horse- Oh, see the girl riding on her-" Well, now that is far from refined text.

This is almost a one to one kind of picture book.

I can see a parent using it with children and talking about it.

Rick> Even someone who can't read could enjoy it.

Augusta> Yes.

And the child who can't read would take this and make up his own story from it, you see.

And, but for a group I would not select a wordless picture book.

Rick> Well, how about like, say, A Letter to Amy ?

Augusta> Well, now... Ezra Jack Keats, I think it does wonderful things with... with, with books for this aged child.

There are certain, authors and illustrators who are child-like.

Sendak is one, not childish.

And Keats is one who understands, children and what children like.

And this was the first book that he did where, he really had a girl in there, you see.

Rick> This is the same character that's in A Snowy Day .

Augusta> Oh, yes.

Yeah.

This is the same one.

I, I have a real partial feeling to this book because... Ezra Jack dedicated the book to me.

And so I guess that's why I'm partial to Amy , but I'm also partial to Amy , because Amy was a little girl who knew how to stand up.

And Peter was a little boy who knew how to stand up against the other little boys who did not want to invite Amy.

But he decided Amy was his friend.

Rick> Now, it's a good book to share?

Augusta> Oh, yes.

Rick> There is enough text?

Augusta> All of his books, all of his books... and they relate.

A small child relates.

Now Snowy Day , for instance, which is really getting to be a classic.

Children relate to those characters.

Rick> As they relate, how do you deal with those interruptions?

If somebody wants to talk and tell you about something?

Augusta> You try in a group experience to hold it off?

You never, you never, you know, just repress little children.

You have to play that by ear.

But you have to, for instance, you have to know how to identify what I call the show off from the child who is really, interested.

The child who's really interested, you just kind of say, "well, we'll talk about that later" "we'll talk about that" is satisfied because, all right now I'm going to have a chance to talk about that.

I was always to watch... the show off is the one who isn't going to take that for an answer, because he wants everybody to, she wants everyone to see... "I'm here now!"

You know, so you have to deal with a little stronger hand.

Sometimes you change words.

Rick> Is there ever a point to, the reader commenting perhaps on a picture within the story?

Augusta> Oh, yes they will.

And you give them the time.

Rick> Well, how about you yourself?

Would you ever want to like, draw attention to, say, a detail in a drawing?

Augusta> No, I think that slows down the story.

And I, for me this moves into teaching.

Why do I want to pick out that particular detail in a story?

Hold up the story.

Hold it up the flow of the story in the minds of these little children to point out this particular thing.

That's the teacher coming out of me.

Rick> And talk about that for a moment.

I mean... if we're, if the child is to learn something, should maybe you say at the beginning, "listen, we're going to ask some questions afterwards or we're going to, you know, pay close attention."

Is that a good thing to do or not?

Augusta> Well, not unless you're going to be giving them a little lesson.

If you're going to be using this book as a vehicle to teach, formal teaching.

But there's so many other ways of learning.

Rick> And so, it can be just done for fun?

Augusta> It should be.

I'm going to tell you, a personal experience, Rick.

As a senior citizen, one does not remember too many things about one's childhood, but I remember an elementary school teacher.

I don't remember all of those other teachers who gave me the skills, and the, "two and two makes four."

and all of this kind of thing.

This one teacher that I can remember is a teacher who, once a week read to us.

And here's your continuing thing.

One chapter of a book- And I remember the name of the book, Beautiful Joe .

Beautiful Joe was the, was the Perils of Pauline , of the canine world.

And we could hardly wait until the next week to see what was going to happen, what was going to happen to this dog.

She didn't give us any lessons on the life cycle of the canine and the evolution of the dog.

And she didn't change words.

Think of the people who read "The Three Bears."

And on the table these lovely bowls of porridge.

But here comes someone who says "our children don't know what porridge is.

So I think I'll change that to cereal.

Three bowls of cereal."

Now, which is more beautiful porridge or cereal?

Rick> Porridge, of course.

Augusta> And much more exciting to little children.

And you shouldn't care whether they know, whether they think it's soup... what... what they think it is.

They know it's something that you eat for breakfast.

Rick> Well, how much does the adults attitude toward the book affect it?

Augusta> Oh, you have to like what you're doing.

I don't think you can, can read a book successfully or tell a story well, if you don't like that book yourself.

I think you must like it.

It has to hit, hit a spark in you before you can then pass that spark on to the children.

Rick> And you think children are able to pick up, a dislike of a book?

Augusta> Well, I think the very way you would, would read it.

You wouldn't put very much action in it.

You wouldn't put very much feeling in it.

Would be, "well, you know, it's a chore.

Here's a book that was on a list.

So I guess I'll just read."

Rick> Any other tricks for, fostering a love of books?

I mean, is it ever too early to share a book with a child?

Augusta> I don't think so.

Well, now we're going to talk about child... you know, a baby 2 or 3 months old.

But when the child gets to be 10, 11, 12 months old before they can talk.

I think children should have books before they can really talk, when they're just beginning to formulate words and beginning to listen to words, and words are beginning to be very important to them.

And then there are all kinds, all types of books.

I like this little book.

What a Good Lunch .

This is one in a series.

Now, this is a wonderful book and a wonderful series for preschoolers.

Because... this one teaches a child how to eat at the table, painlessly.

You know, you don't have to point out the way, way he's holding the fork or the way he's holding the spoon.

"I can eat lunch all by myself.

Soup first.

Shall I drink it?

No!

I should have used my spoon."

And the child looks and sees if you drink your soup out of the bowl what a mess you have.

You see, so you don't have to point it out.

And it's just a few words.

Very, very simple.

I can imagine parents having a good time, you know, with a book like this.

Rick> What about when you're sharing a book?

It must come at the end, a sort of awkward moment.

When you finish the book.

Augusta> You finish.

Rick> How do you handle, how do you then move on to something else or?

Augusta> If you're working with a program with a group and you finish that story and I finish that one and I would put that down, I'd say, "now the next story will be The Three Bears" and go on to the next one.

And when I come to the end, "thank you boys and girls for listening today."

Rick> No questions?

Augusta> See, I... Rick, some of these things are very personal to me.

You understand this.

I do not believe in invading the privacy of children all the time.

And there are many children who read who like to think privately after they have heard a story.

Not, not even read it themselves, but heard- They don't want to talk about it.

They want to think about what they have heard.

Now as an adult, if you hear a story, if you read a book and you want to think privately about it, and I come along and start the questioning, you can say to me, "I don't want to talk about it."

But a child can't say this to an adult without being labeled impudent.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪