>> HELLO, EVERYONE AND WELCOMETO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY".

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP .

> >> UKRAINE'SCOUNTER OFFENSIVEINTENSIFIES.

PRESIDENTZELENSKYY AND WE'VEGOT OUR GUEST FROM KYIV.

>> IS A DETAILED INDICTMENT ANDVERY DAMNING.

>> BORIS JOHNSON ASKED ME TO DOSOMETHING I WAS NOT PREPARED TODO.

> >> POLITICAL TREMORS ON BOTHSIDES OF THE POND.

DONALD TRUMP'S INDICTMENT,BORIS JOHNSON RESIGNS.

AFORMAL DISCUSSION.

THE TOP ADVISER FOR TONY BLAIR.

> >> WEMISS A CULTURAL,HISTORICAL LINES.

THIS IS WHY AMERICAN CHINESEWILL LOOK AT THE SAME QUESTIONAND COME TO DIFFERENTCONCLUSIONS.

>> THE NEWCHINA PLAYBOOK.

WALTER ISAACSON SPEAKS TO ANECONOMIST ON WHY THE NEWGENERATION ISMISUNDERSTOOD.

> >> THE MINUTE DOUBLE DONNASUMMER.

WE TALKEDWITH HER DAUGHTER ONHER NEW DOCUMENTARY ABOUT HERDISCOQUEEN MOTHER.

> >> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY"ISMADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSONFAMILY FUND,SUE AND EDGAR WHYNOT CHAIM THE THIRD.

CANDACE KING WEIRD.

JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLAANDMICKEY STRAUSS.

MARK J BLUSH AND, SETON JMELVIN.

BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ.

COMMITTED TOBRIDGING CULTURALDIFFERENCES INOUR COMMUNITIES.

WE TRY TO LIVE IN THEMOMENTAND NOT MISS WHAT'S RIGHT INFRONT OF US.

AT MUTUAL OF AMERICA, WEBELIEVE TAKING CARE OFTOMORROWCAN MAKE THE MOSTOF TODAY.

MUTUAL OF AMERICA FINANCIALGROUP.

RETIREMENT SERVICES ANDINVESTMENTS.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BYTHESE FUNDERS AND BYCONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBSSTATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR INLONDON.

AS FORMER PRESIDENTS AND PRIMEMINISTERS FACE LEGAL ANDPOLITICAL BATTLESHERE ATTHENIGHT SIX, TONIGHT WE EXAMINEWHY THE RULE OF LAW MATTERS ANDHOW DONALD TRUMP AND BORISJOHNSON ARE BEING HELDACCOUNTABLE.

FIRST, RUSSIA'S WAR IN UKRAINEIS TOP OF THE AGENDA INWASHINGTON WITH TOP NATOOFFICIALS IN TOWN TO MEET WITHPRESIDENT BIDEN ABOUTCONTINUING SUPPORT FOR KEEPSCOUNTER OFFENSIVE.

WHILE ON THE BATTLEFIELD,FIERCE CLASHES REPORTED IN THESOUTH AND EAST OF THE COUNTRYAND UKRAINE CLAIMS TO BE MAKINGINCREMENTAL GAINS.

ITS FORCES SAID THEY CAPTUREDTHREE VILLAGES ON THE FRONTLINES AND THEY'VE RELEASEDPICTURES OF A FLAG BEING RAISEDIN ONE OF THEM.

WE GET THE LATEST WITH THEDEPUTY HEAD OF PRESIDENTZELENSKYY'S OFFICE AND CHIEFDIPLOMATIC ADVISER.

WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

I NOTE YOU WILL NOT GO INTOMILITARY DETAIL BUT WHAT CANYOU TELL US.

ARE YOU MAKING IN MENTALGAINS?

>> SORRY, I CANNOT GO INTO MUCHDETAIL BUT THIS IS MYSPECULATED TOPIC IN THE MEDIA.

I WILL TELLYOU THAT SOMECOUNTER OFFENSIVE ACTIONSAREUNDERWAY.

WE WILL NOT SAY IN PUBLIC WHERETHE GAINS ARE.

YOU WILL FEEL IT.

DEFINITELY.

THEPRESIDENT SAID THE MOOD OFMILITARY COMMANDERS IN CHARGEOF THISOPERATION ARE POSITIVE.

WHEN THERE MOOD IS POSITIVE,THEY CAN COUNT ON GOOD RESULTS.

>> THE NATO SECRETARY-GENERALIS IN WASHINGTON MEETING WITHPRESIDENT JOE BIDEN.

HE WILL BE HOLDING THESEMEETINGS TOMORROW AND CLEARLYTHE STATE OF THE WAR, THE STATEOF THE MATERIAL THAT NATO ISPROVIDING WILL COME UP.

WE UNDERSTAND THEREIS BEENALOT OF AMERICAN FIGHTINGVEHICLES THAT WERE DESTROYED BYTHE RUSSIANS IN THE FIRST WAVEOF THE COUNTER OFFENSIVE.

I'M ASKING YOU THIS IN TERMS OFTRYING TO UNDERSTAND HOWEVERYTHING YOU'VE BEEN GIVEN SOFAR IS MEASURINGUP.

>> YOU UNDERSTAND THEIMPORTANCE OF THE WESTERNMATERIAL AND WEAPONRY WHICH ISOF GREAT NEEDTO UKRAINE.

WEHAVE THE AMMUNITION INTHEWAREHOUSES OR BY USING THEM.

OR USING THEM WHEN THEDEFENDING OUR TERRITORY IN THEEAST.

WE ARE USING THEM BEFOREHAVINGTHECOUNTER OFFENSIVE AND USINGTHEM.

WE WILL NEED MORETO GAIN THESUCCESSES.

THE COUNTER OFFENSIVE TO BESUCCESSFUL AND THESUCCESSWOULD MEAN AS MANY PARTS OF THEUKRAINIAN TERRITORY ASPOSSIBLE.

WE WILL NEED MORE ARTILLERY ANDWE WILLNEED MOREBATTLE TIMES.

WE WILL NEEDTO FIGHT.

IT WILL BE IMPORTANT FOR THEDEFENSE MINISTERS TO GETCONCRETE DECISIONSON FURTHER.

>> IT'S INTERESTING TO WIN BACKAS MUCH TERRITORY AS POSSIBLE.

IN THE PAST IT'S CLEAR YOU WANTTO WIN EVERY LAST INCH OFTERRITORY INCLUDING CRIMEA.

REGARDING THESE DEFENSEMINISTER THINGS MEETINGS, YOUROWN DEFENSE MINISTRY HAS SAIDTHE EXPECTATION OF THISCOUNTEROFFENSE IS OVERESTIMATED,OVERHEATED AND MOST PEOPLE AREWAITING FORSOMETHING HUGE.

THAT IS MY MAIN CONCERN.

HOW MUCH PRESSURE AREYOUFEELING?

IS IT OVERHEATED?

WHAT DO YOU DEFINE AS SUCCESSINTHIS COUNTEROFFENSIVE?

>> IT WILL NOT BE THE LASTCOUNTER OFFENSE OPERATION.

THE ULTIMATE GOAL OF THECOUNTER OFFENSE IS TO WIN BACKALLTHE TERRITORIES.

HERE, YOU CANNOT HAVE ANYSPECULATIONS AND ANY DOUBT.

THIS IS THE ULTIMATE GOALFORTHE GENERAL CAMPAIGN ANDCOUNTER OFFENSIVE.

AS WE ARE TALKING, ANDI WILLNOT TELL YOU WITH THE OPERATIONIS GOING ON.

IT NEEDS TOBE LIBERATED.

ONCE AGAIN, PLEASE, TOAVOID ANYMISUNDERSTANDING, THE ULTIMATEGOAL OF UKRAINECOUNTEROFFENSIVE CAMPAIGN IS TOWIN BACK ALL THE TERRITORIES OFUKRAINEINCLUDING CRIMEA.

WE WILL STAND WITH UKRAINE ASLONG AS IT TAKES AND WHEN WEHEAR FROM OUR PARTNERS IT'SONLY THE UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT,PEOPLE WHO WILL DEFINE THESCOPE OF THE VICTORY.

WE ARE AGREEING WITHTHIS.

UKRAINIANSWILL HAVE THEUNDERSTANDING OF THE VICTORY.

IT IS VERY CLEAR.

TO LIBERATE ALL THE TERRITORIESOF UKRAINE.

>> I HEAR YOU KEEP SAYING THEULTIMATE AIM.

IT'S NOT TOMORROW, NEXT WEEK ORIN THE NEXT FEW MONTHSTO GETBACK CRIMEA.

I SAY THAT BECAUSE YOU YOURSELFMENTIONED PRESIDENT PUTIN.

I WANT TO PLAY A LITTLE CLIPWHAT HE TOLD RUSSIAN PEOPLETODAY ONRUSSIA DAY.

ACKNOWLEDGING IT IS A DIFFICULTTIME.

LET'S LISTEN TO WHATHE SAID.

>> RUSSIA IS BASED ON FAITH ANDPEOPLE.

PEOPLE WHO GO FROM VICTORYTOVICTORY.

BASING THEIR LIVES AND ALL THEWORK ON FAITH.

FAITH IN VICTORY, FAITH ANDJUSTICE, FAITHIN RUSSIA.

>> AS YOU SAID YOUR MORALE ISHOT IN THE MORALE ON THEBATTLEFIELD AMONG THECOMMANDERS.

HE IS SAYING THE SAME THING ANDTHE FAITH IS VERY STRONG THERE.

WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TOTHAT?

>> LIKE RUSSIA, WE CANDEMONSTRATE OUR SUCCESSES ONTHE BATTLEFIELD FROM THE LASTEIGHT MONTHS.

WE STARTED WITH LIBERATING THEAREAS AROUND KYIV IN THE NORTHOF UKRAINE THEN WE CAME TO EASTOF UKRAINE.

THEN IT WASHER SEAN AND THESOUTHERN PARTS OFUKRAINE.

THIS IS WHAT IS ON THEBATTLEFIELD.

WE MANAGED TO GET BACK 50%OFTHE TERRITORY CAPTURED BYRUSSIA.

IT STARTED IN FEBRUARY LASTYEAR.

WE WILL CONTINUE ON THESAMEPATH WITH THE SAME LEVEL OFSUCCESS.

THIS IS DUE TO OUR ARMED FORCESAND DUE TO THE SUPPORT OFTHECOMMUNITY.

>> YOU HAVE YOURBEST PEOPLE ONTHE BATTLEFIELD.

THE DEATHS ARE VERY TRAGIC ANDI'M SUREIT MUST CAUSE A HUGEAMOUNT OF PAIN TO YOU AND YOURGOVERNMENT AND THE FAMILIES.

BUT ALSO YOUR UNDERGOING ATERRIBLE HUMANITARIAN CRISIS.

WHAT IS THE SITUATION AROUNDKHERSON, THE FLOOD WATERS ANDIS IT UNDER CONTROL OR IS THEDAM STILLCOMPROMISED?

>> AFTER THIS TERRORIST ATTACKTHE RUSSIANS MADE ON THE DAM,IT WAS A CLEARACTOF TERRORISM.

THEY WERE PLANNING IT AND DIDIT AT THIS TIME.

MAYBE HEARING UKRAINIANCONTRAFENCE IN THIS PART OF THETERRITORY.

WHAT WE ARE HAVING NOW ISLIQUIDATING THE AFTERMATH OFTHIS TERRORIST ATTACK.

WE ARE SAVING PEOPLE.

ALMOST 30,000 PEOPLE ARE SAVED.

UNFORTUNATELY, THE UNCONTROLLEDPART OFUKRAINIAN TERRITORY ISMUCH MORE DIFFICULT.

THESE ARE THOSE AREAS WHICHAREAFFECTED BY THE FLOODS.

MORE THAN 20,000 THOUSANDPEOPLE ARE STILL IN POORCONDITIONSOF THESEUNCONTROLLED PARTS ANDRUSSIAWILL NOT TAKE ANY ACTION TOEVACUATE PEOPLE OR ALLOWINGINTERNATIONAL INSTITUTIONSAPPROACH THE AREA.

AS FARAS THE AFTERMATH OF THEDISASTER, WE CAN ONLY COLLECTWHEN THE WATER WILL GODOWN ANDTHINKING OF THAT IN SEVERALDAYS THAT, THAT WILL BE THECASE.

WE WILL COUNT AND COLLECT WITHTHE AFTERMATH WILL BE.

THE FOOD SECURITY OF THE WORLD.

THE MOST HORRIBLE MAN.

WHAT WILL BE THE ENVIRONMENTALISSUE?

WILL BE DIVERSITY?

WHAT WILL BE THE AFTERMATH OFTHEPOWER PLANT.

HERE, THEINTERNATIONALCOMMITTEE SHOULD HELP US NOTONLY TO EXAMINE THE AFTERMATHBUT ALSO BRING TO JUSTICE THOSEPEOPLE AND THIS LEADERSHIPRESPONSIBLE TO MAKETHISTERRIBLE TERRORIST IN THIS21stCENTURY.

> >> DONALD TRUMP IS VOWING TOFIGHT ON IN A DIFFERENT WAY.

HE PREPARES TO APPEAR IN MIAMIFEDERAL COURT TOMORROW ON 37COUNTS OF ILLEGALLY POSSESSINGCLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS, DENYINGHE HAD THEMAND OBSTRUCTING THEGOVERNMENT'S ATTEMPT TORETRIEVE THEM.

HE IS THE FIRST UNITED STATESPRESIDENT TO FACE FEDERALCHARGES BUT HE JOINS THE LISTOF FORMER LEADERS IN OTHERCOUNTRIES WHO FACE CRIMINALPROSECUTION.

INCLUDING--HERE IN THE UK,ADIFFERENT RECKONING FOR FORMERPRIME MINISTER BORIS JOHNSON.

HE RESIGNED AS A MEMBER OFPARLIAMENT ON FRIDAY AS HEFACES A DAMNING REPORTCONCLUDING HE LIED ABOUT HISINVOLVEMENT IN PARTIES DURINGTHE COVID LOCKDOWNS.

A BIPARTISAN POLITICAL PODCASTAND DIRECTOR OF COMMUNICATIONSFOR PRIME MINISTER TONY BLAIR.

HE'S GOT A NEW BOOKOUT OPENWHATCAN I DO AND WHY POLITICSHAS GONE SO WRONG AND HOW YOUCAN FIX IT.

HE'S JOINING ME IN THESTUDIO.

BEFORE WE GET TO HOW IT'S GONEAND HOW WE CAN FIX IT, LET MEASK YOU ABOUT THE SUBSTANCE OFTHESE POLITICAL EARTHQUAKESHAPPENING.

ELECTED LEADERS FACINGREALLY,REALLY CENSURE.

HOW BAD IS IT FOR BORISJOHNSON?

>> I THINK HE'S FINISHED.

NO WAY BACK AT ALL.

YOU LOOK AT SOMEONE LIKE DONALDTRUMP AND YOU CAN SEE A WAYBACK BUT I THINK IT'S GOING TOBE DIFFICULT.

AMERICA IS EVEN MORE POLARIZEDTHAN WE ARE.

JOHNSON HASGONE FULL TRUMP.

THE REPORT HE RESIGNED OVER ISA REPORT BY THE PRIVILEGESCOMMITTEE WHICH IS DOMINATED BYHIS OWN PARTY.

THEY'VE CLEARLY GONE THROUGHTHE EVIDENCE, CONCLUDED HE LIKETO PARLIAMENT WHICH IS ARESIGNATION OFFENSE AND HE'SGONE FULL TRUMPIN COURT.

THE OTHER THING THAT'S HAPPENEDWITH JOHNSON IS THAT PEOPLEREALIZE THIS IS A GUY WHOHADNOT BEEN NEAR THE BOTTOM OF THEPOLITICAL PARTY.

HE'S GOT PEOPLE WHO SAY HE'S AGREAT GUY.

PEOPLE AREENABLING HIM.

I THINK HE'S DONE.

HE'S FINISHED.

>> HIS CRIME, SOTO SPEAK, ISTHAT A FEDERAL CRIME LIKE THATWHICH DONALD TRUMP IS BEINGINDICTED.

GIVEN DONALD TRUMP HAS SOMANYLEGAL CASES MOUNTING UP AGAINSTHIM AND THIS ONE ISPARTICULARLY SERIOUS.

YOU READ IT.

WHAT DID YOU TAKE AWAY FROMTHAT?

>> I TOOKAWAY THEDETAIL.

I TOOK AWAY THE SENSE OF HOWTHEY THINK THIS CAN BE THERIGHT THING TO DO.

I DID NOT TAKE AWAY A WITCHHUNTAT ALL.

I TOOK AWAY A PRETTY DETAILEDCASE THATREAD QUITECOMPELLINGLY.

IF I WERE TRUMP, I WOULD BESCARED.

>> WANT PLAY A SOUNDBITE FROMHIS OWN FORMER ATTORNEY GENERALWHO TALKED OVER THE WEEKEND TOFOX NEWS WHAT YOU JUSTSAID.

>> IF EVEN HALF IS TRUE HE ISTOAST.

IT'S A DETAILED INDICTMENT.

IT'SVERY, VERY DAMNING.

THIS IDEA OF PRESENTING TRUMPAS A VICTIM, A VICTIM OFAWITCHHUNT, IT'S RIDICULOUS.

>> LET'S DRILL DOWN ON THAT.

VERY FEW MEMBERS OF THEREPUBLICAN PARTY SPEAK LIKEWILLIAM BARR.

WE'VE GOT CHRIS CHRISTIE ALITTLE BIT.

WE'VE GOT MITT ROMNEY BUTTHEOTHERS INCLUDING THOSE WHO ARERUNNING FOR FOR THE PRESIDENTON THEREPUBLICAN SIDE ARECALLING IT A POLITICALLYMOTIVATED TRIAL.

DONALD TRUMP IS DOING WHATBORIS JOHNSONWAS DOING.

PLAYING THE MARTYR.

HOW SUCCESSFUL CAN THAT BETODAY.

HOW SUCCESSFUL MAY IT BE?

>> YOU SAID IN THEINTRODUCTION.

HE DIED TODAY.

I CITE HIMTHE AUTHOR OF THISAPPROACHTO POLITICS.

JOHNSON IS APOSEDTRUTHPOLITICIAN.

HE'S ENDED HIS LIFE ANDCAREEROUT OF POWER.

THIS IS A GUY WHO SHOULD HAVEGONE TO JAIL A FEWTIMES.

>> THIS IS A GUY WHO GOT AWAYWITH A LOT.

TRUMP IS THINKING HE CAN GETAWAY WITH THIS.

BORIS JOHNSON IS SOMEONE WHOGOT AWAY WITH STUFF HIS WHOLELIFE.

POSTED HIS PRIVATE LIFE ANDPOLITICAL LIFE.

YOU CAN GET AWAY WITH A LOT.

WHAT I HOPE AND FUNNY HOWTHESETHINGS AREHISTORICAL MOMENTS.

TRUMP AND JOHNSON WEREATTACKING INSTITUTIONAL BODIESWHICH HAVE DECIDED THEYOFFENDED THE NORMSANDCONVENTIONS HOW THEY SHOULDABIDE.

IN TRUMP'S CASE THE LAW INJOHNSON'S CASE THE RULES OFPARLIAMENT.

TWO DAYS LATER HE DIES.

THERE'S A PART OF ME THINKINGIS THIS AN INFLECTION POINT.

I HOPE SO.

I DO WORRY.

50 YEARSAGO, NIXON GETS HANDEDOUT OF OFFICE ON THE BACK OFSOMETHING THAT TRUMP WOULDCONSIDER BARELY A MISDEMEANORWHAT WAS DONE.

TRUMP LOSES ACASE FOR ASERIOUS OFFENSE IN THE MEDIA ISSAYING THIS IS HELP OR HELP HISCAMPAIGN.

>> I WANT TO STOP YOU AND GOTHROUGH WHAT YOU SAID.

IN YOUR BOOK, YOU DOSAY THISABOUT HIM.

WHEN IT COMES TO THE USE OFPOSED TRUTH STRATEGIES ANDWESTERN DEMOCRACIES PERHAPS THEFIRST BIG MOVER WAS THE MEDIAMAGNET SILVIO FURNAS COUNTY.

POPULISM WASHIS LEGACY.

HE HAD HISOWN MEDIA.

SODAS WERE STRUCK SORRYBORISJOHNSON.

HE HAS THE MURDOCH MEDIA ANDPOPULIST MEDIA.

THEY'VE SUCCESSFULLY USED THISAND RECOGNIZED IT FOR MANYYEARS.

YOU'VE BEEN AT THIS FOR A LONGTIME.

YOU TALKED ABOUT AN INFLECTIONPOINT.

REALLY?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

I'M SIMPLY SAYING I THINK ONEOF THE REASONS --YOU MENTIONEDTHE PODCAST.

A FORMERTORI CAPITALISTIC.

THE NUMBERS ARE THROUGH THEROOF.

THE MOSTLISTENED TO PODCAST INTHE UK.

AT A TIME WHEN PEOPLE ARESAYING THEY ARE SICK TO DEATHOF POLITICS.

LIKEWISE, THIS MORNING I WAS INA SCHOOL TALKING ABOUT THE BOOKTO KIDS.

THIS GROUP OF KIDS SHOWED ME APICTURE OF THEM OUT IN A FIELDREADINGTHE BOOK ABOUTPOLITICS.

THERE'S A HUNGER AND YEARNING.

IF WE CARRY ON PRODUCINGPOLITICIANS LIKE JOHNSON ANDTRUMP THEN WILL BE HANDCUFFED.

IF ENOUGH PEOPLE UNDERSTAND WEDO HAVE AGENCY AND CANMAKECHANGE CAN BE AN INFLECTIONPOINT.

>> TODAY OR YESTERDAY OR OVERTHE WEEKEND AS WELL ASTRUMPAND JOHNSONAND NICHOLAS WASARRESTED, TAKEN AWAY FORQUESTIONING AND RELEASEDWITHOUT CHARGE.

ALL THAT TO SAY THE U. S. MAYNOT BE USED TO THEIR PRESIDENTSBEING FEDERALLY CHARGED BUTAROUNDTHE WORLD THEREIS THISLEGACY.

THE RULE OF LAW MATTERS.

NOT JUST INTHIS COUNTRY.

A LOT OF FORMER LEADERS DO GETHELD UP AND HELDACCOUNTABLE.

>> I BELIEVE PEOPLE SHOULD BEHELD ACCOUNTABLE.

I DON'T KNOW THE DETAIL OFTHEINTERVIEW.

IT HAS TO DO WITH PARTY FUNDINGAND SO FORTH.

THE OTHER EXAMPLE IS SITUATIONSSUCH AS THE ELECTION IN TURKEYWHERE THE GUY MAY HAVE HAD ABETTER CHANCEWINNING.

HE'S LOCKED UP.

HE'S OF THE SCENE.

THAT IS GOING ON AS WELL.

THIS WHOLE SENSE THE FEELINGPOLITICIANSHAVE A PUNITIVE,TRUMP, JOHNSON AND THESE GUYSFEEL THEY SHOULD BE BEYOND.

THISIS WHATBROUGHT DOWNJOHNSON IN THE END.

DESIGNING THE LAWS OVER COVIDAND CLEARLY BREAKING THEM.

PEOPLE FIND THAT UNFATHOMABLE.

EVEN TODAY, OUR NEWS IN THE UKIS LEADING BETWEEN BORISJOHNSON AND RISHI SUNAK WHETHEROR NOT RISHI SUNAK COULD HAVEHELD BORIS JOHNSON STICK HISCRONIES INTO THE HOUSE OFLORDS.

WE ARE A GLOBAL JOKE ONTHISFRONT.

>>LET'S PLAY THE RISHI SUNAKSOUNDBITE WHERE HE ADDRESSESTHIS.

HE MAY HAVE WANTED ME TODO ITBUT WAS NOT PREPARED TO DO IT.

HERE'S WHAT HE SAID.

>> BORIS JOHNSON ASKED ME TO DOSOMETHING I WAS NOT PREPARED TODO BECAUSE I DIDN'T THINK ITWAS RIGHT.

THAT WAS EITHER OVERRULETHECOMMITTEE.

I WAS NOT PREPARED TO DO THAT.

I DIDN'T THINK IT WAS RIGHT.

IF PEOPLE DON'T LIKE THAT,TOUGH.

>> I KNOW YOU'RE THE LABOURPARTY.

>> ALL WILL TELL YOU WHYI DON'TLIKE THAT.

HE'S PRETENDING HE'S ACTING OUTA PRINCIPAL.

IF HE WAS ACTING OUT APRINCIPAL, YOU ARE SET TO BORISJOHNSON, I'M SORRY, YOUR PRIMEMINISTER RESIGNING IN DISGRACE.

THE IDEA THAT YOU CAN PUTANYONE INTO THE HOUSE OF LORDS.

HE HAS TO SIGN OFF THE NAMES.

HE HAS DUKE SENDTHEM OFF.

THE WHOLE THING IS ABSURD.

HE COULD HAVE BLOCKED THE WHOLETHING.

I'M NOT BUYING THAT.

>> ON A BIGGER LEVEL, HEREINTHE UK, DO YOU AGREE THATMEMBERS OF THE TORYPARTY BYAND LARGE HAVE NOT RUSHED TOBORIS JOHNSON'S OFFENSE.

IN FACT THE OFF BUSTED.

WE'VE GOT A GRAPHIC TO SHOW.

DONALD TRUMP STILL IS AT 61%.

HIS CLOSEST RIVAL IS A 23 %.

RON DESANTIS.

UP UNTIL NOW, HE'S BEEN MAKINGA LOT OF MONEY IN TERMS OFFUNDING AND DONATIONS.

HE MAY EVEN GET SOME HOSTILECROWD BECAUSE HE'S CALLING FORTHAT.

>> THAT'S WHAT I SAID EARLIERIDON'T THINK WE ARE YET ANYWHERENEAR AS A BAD ASTHE POSITIONIN THE UNITED STATES.

I HAPPENTO THINK, THE FORMERCANADIAN POLITICIAN SAYINGPRESIDENT JOE BIDENIS DOING ANAMAZING JOB CONSIDERING THEPOLITICS OF THAT COUNTRY.

TRUMP HAS GOT A REAL FOLLOWING.

A DEEP FOLLOWING.

JOHNSON HAD THAT FOLLOWINGWHILE HE WAS THE LEADER OF THECONSERVATIVE PARTY.

IT'S CLEAR NOW.

HE'S CLAIMING SOME GREATESTABLISHMENT PLOT AGAINST HIM.

HE GOT KICKED OUT BY HISCOLLEAGUES.

HE'S BEEN KICKED OUT --RUNNINGFROM PARLIAMENT BECAUSE THEYDECIDED HE'S A LIAR.

YOU CANNOT COME BACK FROM THAT.

WE IN THE UK SHOULD BE VERYCAREFUL WE DON'T GO ANY FURTHERDOWN THISROAD OF POPULISM.

THAT'S WHERE TRUMP IS TAKINGHIS SIDE OF THE AMERICANDEBATE.

>> ANDHAS BEEN DOING IT.

HOW DO WE FIX IT?

THAT'S THE FRAME OF YOUR BOOK?

HOW DO PEOPLE FIX THIS?

>> I UNDERSTAND WE CAN'T TURNAWAYFROM IT.

THEY WANT PEOPLE TO SAY, LETTHEM GET ONWITH IT.

THEY ARE ALL THE SAME.

NOTHING CHANGES.

LET THEM DO IT AND GET ON WITHYOUR LIFE.

THAT WAY THEY KEEP WINNING.

THEFIRST THING IS WE HAVE TOUNDERSTAND WE HAVE AGENCY.

WE HAVE TO ASK OURSELVES HOWMUCH WE CARE.

THAT'S WHY IT'S WONDERFUL TO GOINTO SCHOOLS AND SEE HOW MUCHTHEY CARE.

KIDS UNDERSTAND WHAT'S GOINGWRONG WITH THE WORLD.

THEY UNDERSTAND THE STUFF ABOUTCLIMATEAND INEQUALITY.

SOME OF THEM MAY NOT CARE.

ENOUGH OFTHEM DO.

YOU HAVE TO STEP UP ANDUNDERSTAND ACTIVISM.

THE KEY IS IN THE WORD ACT.

IT'S NOT ABOUT TWITTER, YOURPHONE BUT GETTING OUT AND DOINGSTUFF AND FIGHTING FOR WHAT YOUBELIEVE IN AND GETTING RID OFTHESE BLOODYJOHNSON'S.

>>THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

> >> THE UNITED STATES AND CHINALOOKING TO RESET RELATIONS AS AU.

S. SECRETARY OF STATEPREPARES TO VISIT BEIJING THISWEEKEND.

THE TRIP COMES MONTHS AFTER THEMEETING WAS CANCELED WHEN THEYOU SHUT DOWN A CHINESE SPYBALLOON OVER ITS AIRSPACE.

OUR NEXT GUEST WAS BORN INCHINA, EDUCATED IN THE UNITEDSTATES AND SHE'S THE WORLDRENOWNED ECONOMIST.

SHE TRACES THE RISEANDRELATIONSHIP WITH THE WEST INHER NEW BOOK.

SHE'S JOINING WALTER ISAACSONWITH HER VALUABLE PERSPECTIVE.

>> THANK YOU.

WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU.

GREAT TO BE WITH YOU,WALTER.

>> THE NEWS IN THE PAST FEWDAYS HAS BEEN ABOUT CHINAPERHAPS DEVELOPING A LISTENINGOR SPY STATION IN CUBA THATCOMES ON THE HEELS OF THEBALLOON THAT PERHAPS CHINA SENTOVER THAT WASSURVEILLANCEBALLOONS.

AS SOMEONE BORN IN CHINA, HAS 3DEGREES AND HARDER AND LIVES INLONDON AND BASHAN, YOUUNDERSTAND THIS RELATIONSHIPWELL.

TO WHAT EXTENT IS THERESOMETHING ALARMING ABOUT THEINCREASE IN SURVEILLANCE OR ISTHAT A NORMAL ORDER OF BUSINESSBETWEEN THE TWO COUNTRIESTHATWE SHOULD LIVE WITH?

>> THERE ARE FEWPEOPLEDISAGREE WITH THE STATEMENTTHAT EVERYONE SPIES ONEVERYONE.

TO BE FAIR,IT ISCHINA ARISING NATION WITH RISINGASPIRATIONS.

AS WE SEE THROUGH HISTORY, ALLTHESE RISING NATIONS HAVE HADTHEIR GLOBAL AGENDA.

CHINA WANTS TO HAVE A GREATERSAY IN THE GLOBAL NORMS ANDORDER.

IT'S OFTEN INTERPRETEDASAGGRESSIVE TACTICS AND ACTS.

THE CHINESE HAVE THEIR OWNPERSPECTIVE.

THEY CONSIDER THEIR INFLUENCEIN THE REGION TO BEINCREASINGLY IMPORTANT.

THEY PROBABLY HAVE ASPIRATIONSTO DIMINISH U. S. POWER ANDINFLUENCE THAN WHAT THEYBELIEVE TO BE THERE SPHERE OFINFLUENCE.

AS WE KNOW FROM WAY BACK,THEU.

S. WASINTERESTED INEUROPEANPOWERS AS IT BECAME A MUCHSTRONGER NATION.

LEAVING ALL THAT ASIDE, IN THESHORT TERM THE CHINESE ANDAMERICANS ARE POINTING FINGERSAT EACH OTHER AND TALKING PASTEACH OTHER.

MOST RECENTLY THEY DO HAVE ADESIRE TO STABILIZE THERELATIONSHIP FOR THEIR OWN GOODAND TAKE THE TEMPERATURE DOWN.

>> THE BIG NEWS IN THE COMINGWEEKS WILL BE THE FACT THATSECRETARY OF STATE ANTONYBLINKEN IS TRAVELING TO CHINA.

A TRIP THAT WAS CANCELEDEARLIER ON BECAUSE OF THEBALLOON SURVEILLANCE ISSUE.

WHAT DO YOU THINK HE SHOULD SAYON THAT TRIP AND YOU HAVE HOPESTHAT WILL LOWER THE TEMPERATUREIN THIS CONFRONTATION?

>> THE DIALOGUE CHANNELS HAS TOBE OPEN AS IN ANY RELATIONSHIP.

COMMUNICATIONIS KEY.

THEY HAVE TO STARTHAVINGSUBSTANTIVE DIALOGUE.

THERE'S ALSO ACHINESEPERSPECTIVE.

FOR THE WHOLE LIST OF U. S. GRIEVANCE ON CHINA, THERE'S ASIMILAR ONE OF CHINESEGRIEVANCES AGAINSTTHE U. S. THEDIALOGUE NEEDS TO BE KEPT OPENBUT THE U. S. SHOULD ALSO FOCUSON SPECIFIC ISSUES.

SPECIFIC AREAS WERE CHINA ISPUSHED TO NEGOTIATE ORCHANGERATHER THAN HAVING ALL THISTENSION INTHE RELATIONSHIPSAND THE WORLD ECONOMY.

I THINK THATCHINA BELIEVES ITSNEW NORMAL WITH U. S. RESTRICTIONS ON TECHNOLOGY BUTTHEY DO HAVE HOPE THATTRADING,INVESTMENT RELATIONSHIPS CANRESUME NORMALITY.

AND FURTHER TALKS ABOUTCOLLABORATION.

CHINA HAS ACCEPTED ANEW NORMALTHE TECHNOLOGY RESTRICTIONSWILL BE AROUND.

FOR THE U. S. , WILL CHINA GOAWAY?

KNOW.

>> WHAT FUNDAMENTALMISUNDERSTANDING DO AMERICANSHAVE ABOUT CHINA?

>> HOW THE MODEL WORKS.

THE UNIQUE ECONOMIC SYSTEM.

THE FACT THERE'S A CENTRALIZEDSTATE WITHAN ALMIGHTY SYSTEM.

THEY OFTEN MISSTHE CREATIVEENTREPRENEURIAL, ONTHE GROUND,THE DECENTRALIZED MECHANISMSTHAT MAY CHINA SUCCESSFUL.

INNOVATIVE POWER.

WEALSO MISSA CULTURAL ANDHISTORIC LINES.

THIS IS WHY AMERICANS ANDCHINESE WILL LOOK AT THESAMEQUESTION AND COME TO DIFFERENTCONCLUSIONS.

THE TOLERANCE OF STATE.

IN SOME CASES THE CHINESESTATEINTERVENTIONIS NOT ONLYEXPECTED, THEY ARE ALSODESIRED.

THE SAME ACTIONS WOULD BEINTOLERABLE TO OTHER CULTURES.

WE COME BACK WITH ADIFFERENTTAKE ON THE SIMILAR ISSUES.

THIS IS WHY WE KEEP ON TALKINGPAST EACH OTHER.

NOT SEEING THE OTHER'SPERSPECTIVE.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT EXIST THEOTHER WAY WHICH IS THAT CHINA'SLEADERSHIP FOR THE CHINESEPEOPLEHAVE FUNDAMENTALUNDERSTANDINGS ABOUT THE U. S. ?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THE FUNDAMENTAL UNDERSTANDINGOF THE U. S. WANTS TO SUPPRESSCHINA'S GROWTH, WANTS TO HOLDBACK CHINA'S GROWTH IS ALSOMISPLACED.

THE CHINESE GOVERNMENTUNDERESTIMATES THE SCOPE ANDROOM FOR DIALOGUE ANDTO EASETENSIONS WITH CHINA NEGOTIATINGAND GIVING UPSOME.

ALSO, THE HUGE IMPACT THATCHINA COULD HAVE BY OPENINGUPITS ECONOMY FURTHER ANDMUCHMORE ENTHUSIASTICALLY TOAMERICAN BUSINESSES.

LET THEM MAKE MONEY.

GIVINGTHEM LEVEL PLAYINGFIELD.

THIS COULD BE ACCOMPLISHMENTSANDAMERICAN BUSINESSMEN WILLGO ON TO LOBBY THEIRGOVERNMENTS.

THERE'S A LOT MORE TO DO.

FROM THE CHINESE PERSPECTIVE,IT'S ALMOST LIKE THIS IS IT.

THERE'S NOTHING WE CAN IMPROVEON.

THERE IS NO GROUND FORIMPROVING THE RELATIONSHIP.

I THINK THAT'S MISTAKEN.

>> ONE OF THE MISUNDERSTANDINGSWE HAD WASTHAT IF WE HAD AGREATER TRADE RELATIONSHIP WITHCHINA.

IF THEYWERE MOREPARTOF THEWORLD TRADE ORGANIZATION WHICHTHEY DID.

THAT WOULD LEAD TO A GRADUALLIBERALIZATION IN CHINA.

IT'S WORKED THE OTHER WAY.

IS THAT AMISUNDERSTANDING?

>> THE COMMON ASSUMPTION THATGLOBALIZATION WILL BRINGCONVERGENCE OF ALL SORTS APARTFROM ECONOMICCONVERSIONS WASPROBABLY A MISTAKE.

IT'S NOT JUST OF CHINA.

MANY OTHER COUNTRIES ANDCULTURES WHERE THE PEOPLE AREFIRMLY ROOTED TO THEIR LOCALCOMMUNITIES.

CHINA AFTER THE WTOIS STILLVERY MUCH CHINESE.

THAT HAS NOT CHANGED.

THERE'S LEVELS OF CONVERGENCE,THE NEW GENERATION.

THEY ASPIRED TO THE AMERICANLIFESTYLE TO A CERTAIN DEGREE.

THEYLIKE HOLLYWOOD MBA BUTTHEIR IDENTITY IS STILL LOCAL.

THE FACT THAT 80% OF HALF AMILLION STUDENTS SETTING ABROADEVERY YEAR WERE TURNING TONATIVE SOIL IS AN INDICATION OFTHAT.

EVEN THOUGH THEY HAVE GREATECONOMIC OPPORTUNITIESELSEWHERE.

YOU ARERIGHT.

POLITICAL HAS STALLED.

WHAT IS THE NEW GENERATIONWANTS?

THEY HAVE DIFFERENT APPETITEFOR CONSUMPTION COMPARED TOTHERISK OF THEIR PARENT'SGENERATION.

POLITICALLY.

WHAT ISTHE MENTALITY?

THERE ARE INTERNATIONALSERVICES THAT ARE OPEN-MINDEDAND SOCIALLY CONSCIOUS.

THERE IS MORE CONVERGENCE OFSOCIAL VALUES OF THE NEWGENERATION AROUND THE WORLDWITH THE CHINESE BUT THEYLOOKABROAD AND DO NOT FINDINSPIRATION.

THEY DON'T LOOK ATWESTERNLIBERAL DEMOCRACIES AS PARAGONSOF SUCCESS OR THE OTHERDEMOCRACIES TRANSPOSED ONTONATIVE SOIL AS MODELS THEYASPIREDTO.

INSTEAD, THE APPETITE FORSTABILITY, FOR GOVERNMENTACCOUNTABILITY, FORECONOMICOPPORTUNITIES IS STILL DOMINANTIN THEIR THINKING.

>> ONE OF THE VALUES OF THEUNITED STATES OF A MORALCOMPASS IS THATLIBERTIES, FREEPRESS, DEMOCRACY.

THESE ARE GOOD INAND OFTHEMSELVES.

ARE YOU SAYING THIS NEW MORECOSMOPOLITAN GENERATION OFCHINESE DON'T BELIEVE THAT?

>> NO.

I DON'T THINK THAT'S TRUE.

I'M NOT SUGGESTING THAT IN ANYWAY.

THEY WOULD WANTTO HAVE AFREERAND MORE OPEN SOCIETY.

THAT IS THE DESIRE THE GENERALPUBLIC HAVEFOR CHINA.

I THINK THESE VALUES AREEVOLVING.

I DON'T THINK ANYTHING WESHOULD TREAT TOTALLYCULTURAL,TOTALLY INDIGENOUS AND THINGSWON'T CHANGE.

THAT'S NOT THE CASE.

IF YOU LOOK AT CHINA IN THE1990S, THERE WAS ALIBERAL ERAAND PEOPLE WERE DEBATING ANDTALKING ABOUT ALL KINDSOFTHINGS.

I'M NOT SUGGESTING THESE AREFIXED UP PREFERENCES.

WHAT I'M SAYINGIS THAT, FIRSTOF ALL, IF THEY HAD TO CHOOSEAND I'M NOT SAYING THERE'SNECESSARILY A TRADE-OFF BETWEENFREEDOM AND SECURITY ASINTERNATIONAL SURVEYS SHOW.

95 % OF THE CHINESE POPULATIONTO SECURITY OVER FREEDOM.

IN THE U. S. 37 % WILL MAKE THESAME CHOICE.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT SURVEYS.

YOU TALK ABOUT THE OPINIONS THEYOUNGER GENERATIONS HAVE.

SOME OF THAT IS IN YOUR BOOK.

TO WHAT EXTENT ARE THOSESURVEYS THAT ARE RELIABLE?

WHAT WOULD A YOUNGERPERSONWANT TO SPEAK OUT AGAINSTTHESTATE?

>> THESE ARE WORLD VALUESURVEYS WHICH ARE WIDELYRECOGNIZED AND USED.

AS RANDOM LIST SELECTION ASPOSSIBLE, THEY AREALSOAMERICAN ECONOMISTORSOCIOLOGIST OWNED GATHERING OFDATA.

THERE'S A WIDE RANGE OF SOURCESTHAT SUGGESTTHE SAME.

IT'S TRUE THE NEW GENERATIONHAS ASPIRATIONS FOR MORELIBERALISM.

IT'S INTERESTING THERE'SSENTIMENT TOWARD THE U. S. ORWESTERN DEMOCRACIESDID ALSOMAKE A TURN IN 2017.

THAT'S DURING TRUMP ERA.

WE CAN'T UNDERESTIMATE HOW THEEXTERNAL ENVIRONMENT AND WHAT'SPERCEIVED TO BE GREATERPRESSURE ON CHINA.

THEKIND OFIDEA THAT SOMEHOWTHE WEST DOES NOT WANT CHINA TOBECOME A RICHARD NATION ANDOTHER DEVELOPING COUNTRIES.

THAT DOES THEIR SHIFT SENTIMENTAND SHAPE THEIR UNDERSTANDINGS.

WE CANNOT UNDERESTIMATE THAT.

WE CAN'T TAKE THESE PREFERENCESAS GIVEN BUTTHE EXTERNAL,OBSERVATIONS HAVE MADE THEMCOME TO A CONCLUSION THAT MAYBETHE WEST DEMOCRACY DOESN'T SUITCHINA.

>> YOU SAY SOME OFTHE REACTIONTHAT'S HAPPENED IN CHINAAGAINST THE LIBERALIZATION THATOCCURRED 20YEARS AGO OR SOHAPPENED AT A REACTION TODONALD TRUMP.

TO WHATEXTENT ISHIS VALUESCHANGING?

>> THE ONE THING THAT IS TRUEIS THAT CHINA HASBEEN EVOLVING, ADAPTING AND ADJUSTING.

MAYBE BECAUSE THE WEST HAS BEENSO FOCUSED ON THE SAME THREESET OF ISSUES THEY HAVE OFTENMISSED THE VAST CHANGESANDEVOLUTION.

YES, WE CAN MAYBE SAY THERESOME PREFERENCES ON THE TOPTHAT ARE IMPOSED ON THEGENERALPUBLIC.

CHINA FACES A REAL CHALLENGE.

IT'S NO LONGER THE COUNTRYWHERE THE ENTIRE POPULATIONREVOLVES AROUND ONE GOAL WHICHIS HIGHER INCOMEAND MORE GDP.

IT'S BECOMING A MORE COMPLEXNATION WITHINDIVIDUALPREFERENCES, DIVERSE OPINIONSAND HOW DO YOU MANAGE A GREATCOMPLEX SOCIETY IS THE KEYCRITICAL CHALLENGE FOR THELEADERSHIP GOING FORWARD.

IT'S NOT GOING TO BE EASY.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE YOUTHUNEMPLOYMENT RATE, 25 % OFPEOPLE WITH BACHELOR'S DEGREEWITHOUT A JOB IS SIGNALINGSOCIAL INSTABILITY ISSUES.

DON'T UNDERESTIMATE THECHINESEGOVERNMENT AND SWIFT ADJUSTMENTTO POLICIES.

IN THE U. S. , POLICIES TAKE ALONG TIMETO CHANGE.

IN CHINA, THE PARTY DOES NOTCHANGE BUT POLICIES CAN CHANGEVERY QUICKLY.

IF THE GOVERNMENT HAS A MIND OFSOMETHING I BELIEVE THAT'S THERIGHT THING TO DO, THINGS WILLHAPPEN SWIFTLY.

NEVER LEAVE ANYTHINGBEINGPERMANENT.

THE MESSAGES ARE NOT PERMANENT.

THEY'RE ALWAYS RECALIBRATED,FINE TUNED TO FIT THECIRCUMSTANCES THAT ACCOMMODATETHE REALITY.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT A 25 %UNEMPLOYMENT RATE AMONG YOUNGPEOPLE.

PEOPLE JUST GRADUATING FROMCOLLEGE.

THAT SEEMS EXPLOSIVE.

WHY IS THAT HAPPENING?

IS THAT A BASIC ECONOMICPROBLEM AND WHAT COULD THATMEAN?

>> IT ISVERY HIGH.

THE WORLD AVERAGE IS AROUND14.

5 % OF YOUTH UNEMPLOYMENT.

THERESOME SHORT-TERM ECONOMICREASONS.

THE ECONOMY IS DOING POORLY INCHINA.

MORE GENERAL PROBLEM ISDIPLOMAS HAVE RACED AHEAD OFTHE ECONOMY.

THE CHINESE ECONOMY STILLMANUFACTURING BASE.

THEY DON'T NEED THAT MANYBACHELOR DEGREES.

WHAT THEY NEED IS VOCATIONAL,TECHNICAL,SKILL TRAININGESPECIALLY WHEN CHINA ASPIRESTO BE A GIANT GERMANY WITH THISINDUSTRIAL POWER.

AT THE SAME TIME, THERE'S YOUTHUNEMPLOYMENT.

30 MILLIONMANUFACTURING JOBSTO BE FILLED BY 2025 AND EVERYYEAR 300,000 SKILLED GAP IN THESEMICONDUCTORS INDUSTRY.

IT'S ASKILL,EDUCATIONMISMATCH.

THE PROBLEM LIES IN THEEXPECTATIONS AND REALITY THEDIFFERENCE BETWEEN EXPECTATIONAND REALITY FOR THE YOUNGPEOPLE.

THEY WENT TO GET A COLLEGEDEGREE YET THEY ONLY HAVE JOBSAS NANNIES OR A WORKER INACIGARETTE MANUFACTURINGCOMPANY.

THAT LEADSTO DISAPPOINTMENT,REDUCED EXPECTATIONS AND THATAFFECTS THE FAMILIES.

THAT'S A SIGN TOBE AWARE OF.

>> THE CHINESE LIVED UNDERZEROCOVID POLICIES.

I THINK IT WAS ALMOST THREEYEARS.

THE GOVERNMENT SEEM TO BEGIN TOPIVOT AWAY FROM THAT FOLLOWINGTHE PROTEST.

TWO WEEKS OF PROTEST.

HOW DID THE COVID ZERO POLICYIMPACT THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEENTHE STATE AND THE PEOPLE ANDWHAT DOES IT SHOW ABOUT THECHINESE GOVERNMENTTHAT WOULDDO A PARA WET ON THIS ISSUE?

>> IN THE EARLY STAGES OF THEPANDEMIC THE CHINESE PUBLICWERE GENERALLY SUPPORTIVE OFTHE CONTROLS IN PLACE ANDSAWCHINA AS A SUCCESS.

AS THE VIRUS EVOLVED, THEPOLICIES DID NOT EVOLVE ANDTHAT BECAME A HUGEPROBLEM.

TOWARDS THE END, PEOPLE WERELOSING JOBS.

THEY WERE NOT HAVING INCOME ANDWERE PRETTY MUCH FED UP WITHTHE LOCKDOWNS.

IN A SURPRISING TURN, YOU SAWHOW THE PEOPLE'S VOICES ANDPEOPLE'S PREFERENCES ULTIMATELYYOU CAN SAY IT WAS TOO SLOW BUTIT DID MOVE THE GOVERNMENT.

IT DID CHANGE THE GOVERNMENTFASTER THAN ANYONE HADEXPECTED.

IT IS ONE EXAMPLE OF THISFEEDBACK.

THIS MOST IMPORTANT THING ISTHAT THE COMMUNIST PARTY,THEBOAT STAYS AFLOAT BECAUSE OFTHE SEA OF PEOPLE.

THAT'S SOMETHING THAT ISIMPORTANT IN CHINA.

THEY ALWAYS HAVE TO ANSWER TOTHEVAST MAJORITY AND NOT EVERYINDIVIDUAL CHINESE BUT THE VASTMAJORITY.

IF THEY ARE NOT HAPPY, ITWILLTOPPLE THE BOAT.

DO REMEMBER THAT ABOUTCHINA.

>> THE ME READ YOU A SENTENCETHAT I FOUND FASCINATING.

YOU SAID ABOUT CHINA.

ITS AMBITIONS DO NOT INCLUDEEXPORTING ITS IDEOLOGY ORFOISTING ITS DEVELOPMENT MODELON THE REST OFTHE WORLD.

THAT SETS IT APART FROM WHAT WETHOUGHT ABOUT RUSSIA FOR THEPAST WHATEVER, 400 YEARS.

IT WANTED TO SPREAD ITSIDEOLOGICAL MODELS.

THAT IS ALSO UNLIKE THE U. S. FROM THE DAYS OF WOODROW WILSONTO THE DAYS OF BUSH ANDBIDENFELT THEY WERE SUPPOSED TOSPREAD DEMOCRACY.

DO YOU SEE THAT AS AFUNDAMENTAL CLASH?

>> CHINA IS MOREPRACTICAL.

IT UNDERSTANDS ITS UNIQUE MODELIS IMPOSSIBLETO BE REPLICATEDELSEWHERE.

IT DOESN'T STRIVE TO DO SO.

IT DOES BELIEVE SOME OF THEDEVELOPMENTAL LESSONS IT CANIMPART ON DEVELOPING COUNTRIESCOULD BE IMPORTANT.

FOR INSTANCE, IF INSTRUCTEDDEVELOPMENT WHICH IT HAS AGREAT AMOUNT OF EXPERTISE.

I DON'T THINK SPREADINGIDEOLOGIES IS A GOAL FORCHINA.

THIS LEADERSHIP ESPECIALLY INPAST GENERATION HAVE BEENPRACTICAL.

80 %OF THE POPULATION STILLLIVES IN DEVELOPING COUNTRIES.

CHINA WANTS TO WORK MORE WITHDEVELOPING COUNTRIES.

CHINESE TECHNOLOGIES ARE MORESUITABLE FOR DEVELOPINGCOUNTRIES THEN AMERICAN OREUROPEAN ONES.

YOU CAN SAY THE LEADERSHIP ISMORE IDEOLOGICAL BUT MOREINTERNALLY DRIVEN RATHERTHANREPLICATE OR EXPORT SOME IDEALSINTO THE REST OF THEWORLD.

>> THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> NEXT, TO THE EXTRAORDINARYMEGASTAR.

THE QUEENOF DISCO.

DONNA SUMMER.

SHE CHANGE THE COURSE OF DANCEMUSIC WITH SMASH IT'S LIKE IFEEL LOVE AND HOT STUFF.

SHE DIED OF CANCER IN 2012 ATTHE AGE OF 63.

NOW, A DOCUMENTARY IS TAKING ACLOSER LOOK AT HER COMPLICATEDLIFE.

HERE'S A BIT OFIT.

>> YOU LOOKING AT ME BUT WHATYOU SEE IS NOT WHAT I AM.

>> WHO IS SHE?

>> MY APPROACH TO SINGING IS IAPPROACH IT AS AN ACTRESS ANDNOT AS A SINGER.

IT'S REALLY ADDRESSING--ACTING.

>> SHE WAS THE FIRST FEMALEBLACK ARTIST TO EVER HAVE AVIDEO ON MTV.

>> THAT IS A CLIP FROMTHETRAILER.

IT'S MADE BY THESINGERSDAUGHTER.

SHE'S JOINING ME NOW FROMLOSANGELES.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I AM SURE THERE'S NOT A SINGLEPERSON WATCHING THIS OF MYPARTICULAR AGE WHO DOES NOTIMMEDIATELY REMEMBERDANCING TODONNA SUMMER FOR ALL THOSEWONDERFUL DECADES.

I LOVE THE FACT SHE SAYS I DIDTHIS AS AN ACTRESS.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

YOU YOURSELF AREONE.

>> THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGSTHAT MADE HER FUNDAMENTALLYDIFFERENT THAN MANY ARTIST OFHER TIME.

SHE REALLY TOOK EACH SONGANDAPPROACHED IT AS A CHARACTERFOR THATSONG.

I THINK THAT'S WHY EACH SONGHAS SUCH SPECIFICITY TOAID INREACHING THE AUDIENCE IN SUCH ADYNAMIC WAY.

I THINKIN SOME WAYS SHE WOULDHAVE HAD AN ACTING CAREER IFSHE FELT SHE COULD HAVE HAD ASUSTAINABLE CAREER AT THATTIME.

THERE WERE NOT AS MANYOPPORTUNITIES FOR WOMEN OFCOLOR TO HAVE A SUSTAINABLEACTING CAREER.

SHE USED THAT DREAMAND TALENTIN HER SINGING.

>> TO HEAR SHE WAS THE FIRSTBLACK FEMALE SINGER TO GET AMUSIC VIDEO ON MTV.

THAT'S ALSO A STUNNER.

HOW DID THAT CHANGEHER IMPACT?

>> I THINK SHE WAS THE FIRSTFORMANY THINGS.

THERE WAS A CHANGING DYNAMIC INTHE WAY PEOPLE WERE CONSUMINGMUSIC.

MTV OBVIOUSLY WAS AGROUNDBREAKING TOOL AND MEDIUM.

SHE WASALWAYS VISUAL AND HERPRODUCTION.

VERY THEATRICAL.

TAKING THAT AND GOING BACKTOTHE ACTING AND TAKING THAT INTOTHE MUSIC VIDEO REALM ANDALLOWING MUSIC TO HAVE THISVISUAL IMPACT WAS SOMETHING SHEFELT COMFORTABLEWITH.

SHE WORKS HARD FOR THE MONEYWAS HIS BREAKOUTSONG.

THAT VIDEO REALLY OPENED UPDOORS FOR MANY OTHER FEMALEBLACK ARTIST.

>>THE ICONIC SONG IS I LOVE TOLOVE YOU BABY.

IT'S PART OF THE REASON WHY YOUNAME THE DOCUMENTARY THAT.

IT'S SO IDENTIFIED WITH HER.

WE WILL PLAY ALITTLE BIT OF ITWHAT WE CAN PLAY ON A FAMILYTELEVISION SHOW.

> > >> INOTHER VERSIONS THERE'STHE SULTRY SIZE AND ECSTATICSIZE.

PRACTICALLY ORGASMIC.

SHE WAS YOUR MOM.

WHATDID YOU MAKE OF THAT SONGWHEN YOU FIRST HEARD IT?

>> I THINK THERE WASA LITTLEBIT OF SHOCK.

THERE'S A MOMENT INTHE FILMWHERE MY SISTER AND I HAVE THISINTERACTION WITH OLD MY GOD,WHO ISTHIS WOMAN.

WE DON'T KNOW HER.

THAT WAS VERY TRUE.

THAT REALLY HAPPENED.

AT THE TIME WHERE MY SISTER ANDI WEREGOING THROUGH MIDDLESCHOOL YEARS IS WHEN WE FIRSTDISCOVERED THE SONG.

AT THAT TIME, WE WERE VERY MUCHA PART OF MY MOTHER AND HERCAREER AND GO TO SHOWS ANDTHINGS SHE STOP PERFORMING THATSONG LIVE.

WE DIDN'T HAVE ANY TRUEUNDERSTANDING WHAT THAT SONGWAS ORTHE IMPACT FOR CULTUREIN HER LIFE.

>> DID SHE REALIZE--WE READSHE GREW UP IN ARELIGIOUSENVIRONMENT.

SHE CAME FROM A CONSERVATIVEBACKGROUND.

DID SHE UNDERSTAND WHAT SHE WASLETTING HERSELFINTO OR WAS ITJUST PERFORMING LIKEANACTRESS?

>> I THINK IT WAS ALL OF THOSETHINGS.

SHE HAD THIS DEEP SENSE SHE WASGOING TO BE ON THE WORLD STAGE.

SHE WAS GOING TO BE FAMOUS.

SHE HAD THISSTRONG CALLINGOVER HER LIFE.

I THINK SHE UNDERSTOOD THAT WASCAN IT BE HER PATH.

THE WAY IT HAPPENED WAS MUCHDIFFERENT THANSHE ANTICIPATED.

SHE WAS ONE OF THE WRITERS ANDCAME UP WITH THE IDEA OF LOVETO LOVE YOU.

SHE THOUGHT SOMEONE ELSE WILLSING THAT SONG.

WHEN IT BECAMEHER ENTRY INTOSUPERSTARDOM,I THINK BALANCINGHER REAL IDENTITY AND REALPERSONALITY WITH THIS PERSONATHAT WAS VERY SEXUALIZED ANDFORWARD WHEN SHE WASGOOFY,THEATRICAL PERSON.

THERE WAS SOME CONFLICT ANDTOOK HER SOME TIME TO FIND HERFOOTING AND TAKE OWNERSHIPOFIT BUT ALSO HAVE PEOPLEUNDERSTAND THAT WAS NOT HERLIMITATION.

THIS PERSONA WAS PART OF WHOSHE WAS.

>> TINA TURNER DIED RECENTLYAND APART FROM HER MEGA TALENT,SHE ALSO BECAMEA REAL MENTORAND ICON FOR YOUNG WOMEN.

SHE FINALLY SPOKE OUT ABOUT THEDOMESTIC ABUSE SHE SUFFEREDFROM IKE TURNER.

YOUR MOTHER SUFFERED ABUSEUNTIL FINALLY FINDING HERFATHER AND SETTLING DOWN.

THIS IS A PART OF WHAT SHE SAIDABOUT THAT.

HER THOUGHTS ON MOTHERHOOD ANDMARRIAGE.

LET'S LISTEN.

>> MY LIFESTARTED TO QUIETDOWN.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAPPENEDWASI GREW.

IT WAS THE TIME WITH USBECOMING MORE SPIRITUAL.

I HAD TO MAKE A DECISION ABOUTBEING A MOTHER AND HOW MUCHMOTHER I WAS GOING TO BE.

THERE'S NOTHING IN MY LIFEMORETHAN MY JEWELS.

MY CHILDREN.

MY HUSBANDAND FAMILY.

I LOVE TO PERFORM AND THAT'SIMPORTANT BUT DOESN'T BRING MEWHAT THEYBRING ME.

>> THAT'S MARVELOUS.

I SEE YOUR FACE LISTEN TO THAT.

WHAT KIND OF A MOTHER WHERESHEAND DID SHE SCALED-BACK THEHIGHLY SEXUALIZED PERFORMANCESONCE YOU WERE THERE?

>> YES.

LIKE I SAID EARLIER, THAT WAS APART OF HER WE DIDN'T HAVE AREAL UNDERSTANDING UNTIL WE GOTOLDER.

MY MOM WASA VERY NURTURINGPERSON.

I ALWAYS SAYSHE WASEVERYBODY'S STAGE MOM.

SHE SAW A GIFT OR TALENT INYOU, SHE WOULD CHAMPION THATAND SAY GO FOR YOUR DREAMS.

SHE EMPOWERED US TO DO THATFOROURSELVES.

INCLUDED USIN HERARTISTRY ANDIN HER CREATIVITY.

IT WAS NOT SOMETHING THAT WASSEPARATED FROM OUR DAILY LIVES.

WE WERE VERY MUCHA PART OF ALLTHE DIFFERENT ASPECTS OF HERLIFE AT THAT POINT.

IT ALLOWED US TO FEEL VERYCLOSETO HER EVEN THOUGH WE HADTO SHARE HER WITH THE WORLDMOST OF THE TIME.

>> SHE'S STILL IS BEINGREMEMBERED AND LOVEBY THEGENERATION NOW.

BEYONCÉ DID SOME COVERON HER.

TALK TO ME ABOUT HER LASTINGLEGACY?

HOW WOULD DONNA SUMMER WANT TOBEREMEMBERED?

>> I THINK SHE WOULD LIKE TO BEREMEMBERED AS A REAL ARTIST.

PEOPLE KNOW HER AS THE DISCOQUEEN OR THIS PERSONAOF DISCO.

SHE WAS A TRUE ARTIST.

SHE WROTE A LOT OF HER MUSIC.

SHE WAS A PAINTER.

EVERYTHING IN HER LIFE WASABOUT CREATION.

I WOULD THINK SHE WOULD WANT TOBE UP THERE WITH THE OTHERARTIST OF HER TIME ANDRESPECTED AS THAT.

SOMEBODY WHO BROUGHT LOVEANDJOY TO PEOPLE BY USING HERGIFT.

>> AMAZING.

THANK YOU.

LOVE TO LOVE YOU DONNA SUMMERIS AVAILABLEON HBO ANDSTREAMING ON MAX.

FINALLY TONIGHT, EVEN DAYSLATER.

THIS STORY CONTINUES TO AMAZE.

THE SHEAR WILL TO SURVIVE OFFOUR SMALL CHILDREN.

THE YOUNGEST ONLY ONEYEAR OLD.

THEY'VE BEEN FOUND ALIVE INCOLUMBIA'S AMAZON JUNGLE.

IT WAS AFTER MORE THAN A MONTHAFTER A PLANE CRASH WHERE THEYLOSTTHEIR MOTHER.

THE GENERAL WHO LED THE MASSIVESEARCH FOR THE KIDS TOLD CNN HEBELIEVES RESCUERS CAME WITHIN100 FEET AT ONE POINT BUTDIDN'T FIND THEM RIGHT AWAYBECAUSE OF THE RAIN FORESTDENSITY.

ALL THREE ADULTS ON BOARDINCLUDING THEIR MOTHER WEREKILLED.

HERE'S WHY THEIR FATHER SAID HEREMAINED HOPEFUL FORHISCHILDREN.

>> WE ARE INDIGENOUS PEOPLE.

I BELIEVE IN THE JUNGLE WHICHIS OUR MOTHER AND THAT'S WHATI'VE KEPT THE FAITH AND WOULDSAY BOTH THE JUNGLE AND NATUREHAVE NEVER BETRAYED ME.

>> EATING CASSAVA FLOUR HELPSAVE THE FLOWER WHO ALSOREPORTED HID FROM TORRENTIALRAINS AND DANGEROUS ANIMALS INHOLLOWED OUT TREE TRUNKS.

THEY ARE NOWRECOVERING INAHOSPITAL IN BOGOTÁ.

THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'SCOMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERYNIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OURNEWSLETTER AT CHRISTIANEAMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING ANDGOODBYEFROM LONDON.