(hopeful music) - [Narrator] This is a production of WEDU PBS, Tampa, St. Petersburg, Sarasota.

(inquisitive music) - Next on "Florida This Week," it's one of the big issues of the presidential campaign so far, what to do about immigration.

Thousands of would-be immigrants trying to enter the country every day, mostly through the southern border.

Some are asking for political asylum.

Others are seeking to escape poverty.

Our governor is warning the US cannot accommodate any more illegal immigrants, and he wants to crack down.

He wants the military to turn them back.

Many undocumented immigrants are already here and work in Florida's major industries.

The controversy over immigration right now on "Florida This Week."

(inquisitive music continues) (inquisitive music continues) Welcome back.

Joining us on the panel this week, Nanci Palacios is the deputy director of Faith in Florida, Steve Cona III is the president and CEO of the Associated Builders and Contractors, Shalyn Fluharty is the executive director of Americans for Immigrant Justice, and C.J.

Czaia is an attorney and the owner of the Czaia Law Firm.

Nice to see all of you.

Thank you for doing the program.

- Thank you.

- Thank you.

- Well, this week, in the first major policy announcement of his presidential campaign, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis proposed a sweeping crackdown on illegal immigration, including sending the US military to the border and mass detention and mass deportations of undocumented people.

(air whooshing) - Yeah, we will.

Well, there's gonna be a firm and swift consequence to violating the law.

- [Rob] DeSantis would also do what Donald Trump previously proposed, end birthright citizenship and build a wall at the southern border.

- We also need to remove the incentives to come illegally to begin with.

And that means employment.

That means taxpayer-financed benefit.

It also means this idea that you can come across the border, two days later have a child, and somehow that's an American citizen.

That was not the original understanding of the 14th Amendment.

And so we'll take action to force a clarification of that.

But I think it's wrong that people would use our country for things like birth tourism.

So we're gonna be removing the incentives to come into this country illegally.

- [Rob] Immigrants make up a large number of Florida's population, just over 21%.

Of those, more than 770,000 are undocumented.

The majority come from Mexico, Central America, and South America.

Across Florida, these illegal immigrants work mostly in tourism, construction, restaurants, waste management, retail, and agriculture.

Florida's tough new immigration law takes effect this weekend.

That law, SB1718, has a long list of provisions, including cutting social services for undocumented immigrants, providing another 12 million in tax money for the state's controversial migrant relocation program, and imposing harsher penalties for knowingly transporting or hiring those without the proper paperwork.

Employers are already seeing a shortage of workers as many flee the state.

This weekend, and in the past several weeks, immigrants have been holding protests around Florida.

- Most importantly, I know it's causing a lot of harm in our community, and I just wanna make sure that people feel that we are here in solidarity with them, and we want to make sure that everyone feels safe, and that people are not having their families broken by this law.

- There's a lot of nervousness.

A lot of guys have left the state already, kinda fled the state, just kinda scared.

- Okay, Shalyn, is this a serious problem?

Are a lot of people fleeing Florida, a lot of undocumented people fleeing Florida?

And are we seeing a shortage of workers around Florida?

I'm gonna ask everybody but, Shalyn, let's start with you.

- You know, I think the story of David Garra, a father and construction worker who has called Florida home for 20 years is a good one.

You know, there was a report about David's journey where he in May relocated his entire large family, including three US citizen children and one child who was undocumented, leaving the state of Florida because of the fear that he faces living here.

And what's interesting or heartbreaking really about David's story is he recounts, you know, leaving his bed, his mattress, you know, all of their earthly possessions behind.

But what for him was the most difficult to leave behind were the toys of his children.

So I would say that this is a real problem, not just because it's uprooting members of our community, Floridians who have been here for years based upon the fear that they face, but also because we know that we have such a critical labor shortage here in Florida.

You know, reports say that of the 100 open jobs that are available in this moment, we only have 53 workers to fill those positions.

And that in the agricultural industry, 46% of our labor comes from individuals who are undocumented.

So yes, I would say that this is a real problem for our state.

- Steve, what's the situation in building and construction, your industry?

- Yeah, so for us, I think we have been dealing with a workforce shortage for quite some time.

More a skilled labor shortage than a labor shortage.

But obviously, when this law goes into effect this weekend, you're gonna see now this law does require the vast majority of employers to use E-Verify.

Not just the construction industry, but every industry.

I think workers are scared, but I also think employers need to do a really good job of communicating the ins and outs of this law.

I know it sounds scary, but there are a lot of things in the law that can be worked with, such as you can't go backwards in the law.

If you're already employed, contractors don't have to go backwards, only people that they're hiring new.

- Was the construction industry generally in favor of passing this law?

- I will tell you that we were definitely not really at the table when this law was passed.

I don't think that our industry, we wanna follow the law.

Obviously, we've been doing E-Verify for quite some time in the construction industry.

But we also don't want to hinder people who want to come and work in this country.

- Uh-hmm, Nanci, what are you hearing and what are you seeing among the immigrant population that you serve?

- Yes, so we work really closely with a lot of congregations that have large amounts of immigrants in their communities.

And with speaking in the clergy, they have said that over the last month, they have seen a decline in presence in their congregations.

They're reporting that normally, they would have about a thousand or more members in every service.

And now, they're not even having close to 700, 800.

People are coming to the clergy and letting them know, "Hey, we're leaving," you know, "give us your blessing."

So you know, all of that tells us that there is fear, and that people are fleeing to be able to keep their families safe.

- And C.J.

what are you hearing?

- Well, absolutely.

Listen, I've been asked to speak to a construction company.

I've spoken to a few where I talk to the workers and say, "Don't panic."

This is clearly a political ploy by DeSantis to try to out-Trump Trump.

And there's a lot of holes in this law.

It's, I think, actually illegal.

It should be overturned at some point.

And it's like Steve had said, it goes back.

I mean, you're already here.

There are ways to get around this.

But reality is, if I'm undocumented, 'cause there's no illegal human being, it's immoral that a person would call somebody illegal for trying to feed their family.

There's no illegal person.

It's not even a crime.

If you commit a crime in this state or in this country, you're afforded an attorney.

In immigration, you're not, because it's a civil issue.

It's not a crime.

So they dehumanize people by calling 'em illegal, so you can step on them, because these are good Christians that are acting evil.

So what I would do if I was undocumented, probably move from the state.

There are 15 states that provide driver's licenses for undocumented people.

If you think about it, the state is responsible for driver's license and make sure there's insurance, et cetera, not immigration.

This governor has gone way over and overreaching his boundaries.

And when he is president, if he becomes president, and God forbid, then maybe he can bring some of these fascist ideology into play.

But until then, you run the state of Florida, follow state law and stay in your lane, if you will.

'Cause that's a federal issue.

This is Congress' responsibility, not even Biden's.

- I wanna get to that in a little bit.

But Shalyn, before we do, I wanna ask you about are families being affected by this?

How is this affecting families here in the state of Florida?

- You know, there's so many provisions in SB1718.

And most of them, but not all of them, take effect this weekend on July 1st.

And one of the provisions that we're most worried about is Section 10 that refers or actually imposes a felony charge on an individual who's transporting somebody who the law defines as a person who has not been inspected by the Federal Government.

And the reason I highlight this provision is because there's been such misinformation in the media, and many people believe that this means that if you're driving a person who doesn't have lawful immigration status, that you, even if you're a citizen, could be arrested, mandatorily detained, and charged with a felony.

And what's true about that is, yes, this criminalizes the conduct of driving into the state of Florida, regardless of your immigration status.

So if you are a citizen, a Floridian, you're at risk of this felony charge.

But what's wrong about the content that's being publicly shared is that it has nothing to do with the actual immigration status of the person who's in your vehicle.

And I think even our state-elected officials got this wrong and didn't understand it when they passed the bill.

This particular provision basically says that it relates to the way that somebody entered the United States, not their status in this moment.

So there are circumstances under federal immigration law in which somebody might have, for example, their green card, but they entered in a way in which they weren't formally or technically under the nuance of our federal immigration law inspected.

And there's just so much vagueness and lack of clarity in the law that we're at risk of it being applied in a way that's extremely discriminatory.

And that's what's worrying me the most.

- You know, a lot of people and, Steve, let me toss this to you and then go back to Nanci, a lot of people say, "Look, undocumented immigrants are taking away jobs "from US citizens."

So US workers will come forward, fill these jobs, and that undocumented workers drive down the wages of American workers, people that are citizens already.

What do you say to that?

- Well, I say, for example, in the skilled labor department, wages are going way up.

And so I don't think having people that are electricians and plumbers that wanna do that work is gonna drive down wages at all.

The demand, the construction industry is growing by leaps and bounds in Florida.

And there's no end in sight there for us.

So wages are not gonna be drove down, I believe, by, you know, by letting people work.

- Uh-hmm.

Nanci, what would you say to that?

That if Florida forces undocumented immigrants out of the state, scares 'em out of the state, that citizens, US citizens, will come in and fill those jobs?

- That's gonna be what will have to happen.

Otherwise, it's gonna drive up costs for all of us who live in this state.

You know, part of what we don't take into consideration is that, you know, a lot of the food that gets put on our tables gets picked majority by undocumented people.

You know, a lot of our homes get built by folks who maybe are in undocumented families or mixed status families.

And so when those folks are removed, you're leaving spaces where either they're not gonna get filled, so things are not gonna get done, your home is not gonna get built on time, or food is not gonna be as affordable as it probably was because folks who may wanna fill those jobs are not gonna work for the amount of money that people, unfortunately, were getting paid for before.

- And, Nanci, I saw a comment from a Florida farmer in South Florida who said that food prices are about to go way up because undocumented immigrants are being forced out of the state.

- Yes, I went shopping this weekend, and I was just so surprised how much food was missing from, you know, the store.

There was no fruits, there was nothing on the shelves, they were half empty.

And the stuff that was there, you know, a bag of tangerines was $10, which a couple of weeks back you could have gotten that for five.

And coincidence or not, I'm not sure, but it doesn't seem like it's adding up in a way where it's gonna benefit any of us.

- C.J., the governor says he's passing all this legislation this year and the previous year because the Federal Government isn't doing its job, and you see all these people coming to the southern border.

And since President Biden isn't acting on it, he's gotta do something.

- Well, it's not his prerogative.

It's the Federal Government's job.

I would say the Republicans in Congress are failing miserably.

If you remember our state's, our United States senator from Florida tried to do this and do immigration reform- - [Rob] Marco Rubio.

- Exactly, when he was first elected, they told him to stand down.

The last time Congress worked on immigration was 1986 when Reagan was president.

We need Congress to step in and do their job.

The president is not in control of this, Congress is.

The Republicans are stopping this, in my opinion, because if we fix immigration reform, which is not open the borders, fix the problem, what will they have to argue when they run for office?

This is something that both parties need to work on and fix immediately.

And it's Congress that has the responsibility, not the president.

Even if DeSantis is elected as president, he has to have a Congress that will actually pass the laws.

And if he doesn't, nothing will change.

- Go ahead.

- One thing to add, and I do think that I was just in DC a couple of weeks ago, and the Republicans did pass an immigration bill that secured the border, increased visas, sent it to the Senate.

But you're right, Congress has to solve this problem.

This is a federal issue.

We've been going to Washington for the last decade, talking about guest worker programs, pathways to work in this country, and it hasn't happened.

It's a federal issue.

This law is a response to the lack of the federal regulations in immigration.

- I just wanna show what Title 42, they were all worried about it ending.

Immigration is going down since this Title 42 ended, and it's because Biden is trying something.

It's like a prospect of giving more a lawful entry.

For example, if you are a resident of the United States and you live in Colombia, you can now apply to have people come in.

Before, that was not allowed, okay?

So now, it gives more avenues for people to do this correctly, and so that they don't have to come to the border.

And by the way, most of the people coming into the border are turning themselves in and saying political asylum.

That's not an illegal undocumented person.

That's a person now that needs to be processed.

But what's happening, I know personally people for 7, 8, 10 years waiting for the political asylum trial.

I've represented people in political asylum trials.

They should be done immediately, very quickly.

And if they don't qualify, they should be sent home.

But no, Congress has not funded immigration.

If we would do the things correctly, we wouldn't have this problem.

But then I guess, you know, people wouldn't come out and vote and, you know, hate Latinos.

I don't know.

It's the only logical explanation for non-movement by Congress.

- Nanci, one thing I heard, and this follows up on what C.J.

said, one thing I've heard from people who have immigrated here legally, they say, "Look, I came here legally.

I stood in line.

"I waited several years until I was admitted.

"I waited several more years until I became a citizen."

You're an undocumented immigrant or you were, excuse me.

Now, you're here legally.

But I'm wondering, what do you say to folks that say, "Look, people should just go home, "stay in their home country, "and wait in line and do the right thing."

What do you say?

- You know, a lot of the reasons why people have to flee doesn't allow for them to wait for a permit or for them to get authorized to come into this country.

People are fleeing persecution and violence.

That is part of the reason why my family immigrated here.

In order to be able to get a visa, you have to have money, you have to be well off back in your country, and you have to not be, you know, a threat that you're gonna stay in this country.

Most people who come here don't come thinking that they're gonna come and build a family here and stay here forever.

What I'll also add is that people who are coming here, you know, have been here for 20, 30 years.

So whenever our governor talks about people coming over the border, that's recently, right?

And that's what's happening right now.

But what is being done to address the issue of folks who have been here 20, 30 years?

People who have maybe are pending cases.

I have family members who have petitions from their family and have been waiting 20 years to get a process, you know, to become residents of this country.

And what will happen if they get caught up with a felony because of this law?

What's gonna happen to the 20 years that they've waited to be in this potential line that doesn't really exist to be able to adjust?

- Well, both of you and C.J.

are saying, essentially, the process is way too slow.

- But can I say, my wife is Colombian.

I don't have my wife here or the children.

I've been waiting years.

I'm an officer of the court.

I practice in federal court.

I practice in Minnesota and Florida, and I cannot even speak to an immigration person over my family.

It is the most hell to live through.

So be it one year, two years, five years, 10 years.

For you people that think it's a joke or they should stand in line, you stand in line, and then we'll talk about it.

The system is broken.

It needs immediate action by Congress.

Even if you're doing it what they say is the correct way.

- Steve.

- And I think there's two, I think there's two pathways we're talking about here.

Everyone who comes to this country doesn't necessarily want to be a citizen but they do wanna work.

And I think those are separate things.

Becoming a citizen is one thing, but coming here and to get a vehicle in which you could work legally in this country, I think that's what needs to be really fixed and worked on.

I think it is the cruelest thing to allow people to come into this country at will and not give them the opportunity to work legally.

Like that to me is criminal.

- Shalyn, I've seen some people argue that, look, people who are undocumented are coming here for free stuff.

They want free healthcare, they want free education.

That's why they're coming here, and that's why a lot of people are against undocumented immigrants.

What do you say back?

- Well, you know, I think so many people are conflating what's happening at the border and what SB1718 does to us right here in Florida.

This state legislation is hurting families who are already living and working here in Florida.

So it's important that we not combine these two things because I have found in sort of talking about the law that people realize that what they believe about SB1718 changes when they learn more.

You know, this is government overreach in its finest form, right?

We have a state governor who is trying to enact federal immigration policies while simultaneously interfering with local policies that reflect the needs of the communities that live there.

You know, doing things like taking away the ability for government IDs to be issued to the community.

That doesn't just impact immigrants, it impacts other people.

You know, we have been a place of welcome the entirety of our nation's existence, and we should continue to be that place of welcome for immigrants too.

- I wanna turn to solutions.

And Nanci, let me start with you.

If we're to solve this problem, what steps would you offer?

What would you suggest we take in order to deal with this issue?

- I think Congress has to act.

The fact that they haven't done any kind of reform or correct the process for people to be able to adjust their status, whether that is to become green card holders, whether it is to become citizens or people who just want to work.

At the federal level, that's what you need to do.

At the local level, there are things that we have promoted before that could be done where we can allow people to be able to drive in the state, right?

There's, as it was stated earlier, 16 other areas including DC that allows for people to have driver's licenses.

They're able to know who's here, and it makes all of us safer by allowing people to drive safely.

That alone will cut the amount of people who will end up in a detention center as a result of a traffic stop.

You know, those are just simple things that I think could be done and could really, if you're worried about who is in our country, if you're worried about keeping us safe, those are some things that we can do in the meantime to do that together.

- Steve, what do you think some of the solutions are?

- Well, I think a guest worker program is something that has to be done, but that only has to be done federally.

I mean, I think if the state would've been able to do that years ago, they would've done it, but they don't have the power to do that.

I do think the best way that you can track people in this country is to pay them and take taxes out.

And to me, that's the fairest way.

So I think a guest worker program.

But like I said, that's a federal problem, and the states can't regulate that.

- We already have a guest worker program.

Are you saying it should be expanded?

- It should definitely be expanded.

- And would that reduce the number of people at the border waiting to enter?

- I think if people are coming into the border and they pass whatever measures they have to pass in order to get in, giving them the right to come and earn a living in America, I think would be helpful.

- All right, Shalyn, what would you say?

What are some of the ideas that you would offer?

- Listen, this legislation flew through our state legislator, and our elected officials didn't hear enough from us.

They didn't hear enough from our businesses who are being impacted from this legislation.

They didn't hear enough from our faith-based communities to listen.

And so this is the time to pick up the phone and share how this law is impacting you and to take a stand for what's good for our state.

In addition to that, I would say, you know, if you are, let's say a frontline worker, maybe you're the person at the hospital who's working in the emergency room, and you are the person who now based upon this legislation has to ask someone to reveal their immigration status, to show you their papers.

I would hope that you just are sensitive to that because this law is gonna impact people in their most vulnerable moments.

When they're coming to the emergency room for lifesaving care, they're gonna think twice before they show up because they know that you're gonna ask that question.

So just try to communicate your welcome even if you are being required by this law to do things that conflict with your values and the values that we hold as Floridians.

- Hmm.

And, C.J., what do you think the solutions might be?

- Oh, there's a great deal of it.

First, you need Congress to work.

They just need to sit down with all parties.

Here in Florida, there's no checks and balances, and that's what really disturbs me.

There's all Republican in charge.

Now, I'm not saying all Republicans are bad because the Dems, when they would have, I believe in checks and balances.

Government is not supposed to be that efficient.

It's supposed to be fair.

And I think what has been said here today is correct.

Law was pushed through without consulting people.

It's a government overreach.

It's abuse of state power.

It instills fear in immigrant community.

And what we need is Congress to act.

Then, as Steve had said, the state doesn't feel like they have to do anything.

Congress needs to do.

This is on the Congress of the United States and the people that in Congress that will not act to work on immigration reform.

There are a lot of things that can be done.

But remember this, there are 10 million Americans without employment, I mean, jobs available in this country.

2.7, I think, percent of Florida unemployment rate.

If we pass immigration reform, inflation will come down, our pocketbooks would be better, everything will be better in this country, and we'll be back on track.

- But C.J., it's easy to say Congress should do something.

But the governor says, "Look, Congress hasn't done anything," so he's gotta step in and do something.

- He likes that because he's running for president of the United States, and there's nobody to thwart him.

He needs a law.

And really, if we look at this law that's passed, there's a lot of Swiss cheese.

There's a lot of holes here that will keep people here because he knows if he really stops people from working, there goes a multi-billion dollar agricultural industry.

There goes the construction industry.

If you know how to manage the law, you're not gonna lose people.

But he's grandstanding for national politics.

His party in Congress, and he was a congressman, he did nothing, absolutely nothing to fix immigration.

It's Congress' responsibility, and that's the problem.

And it falls squarely, unfortunately, at the moment on the Republican Party to make these changes.

- C.J.

Czaia, thank you very much.

Steve Cona, thank you very much.

Shalyn Fluharty, thank you.

And Nanci Palacios, thank you for an illuminating conversation.

- Thank you.

- And thank you for joining us.

Send us your comments at ftwwedu.org and like us on Facebook.

You can view this and past shows online at wedu.org or on the PBS app.

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We leave you with video from last summer's Newport Folk Festival, featuring Rhiannon Giddens and Paul Simon, playing his song, "American Tune."

Happy 4th of July.

See you soon.

(gentle music) (audience cheering) ♪ And I dreamed I was dying ♪ (audience cheering) ♪ I dreamed that my soul rose unexpectedly ♪ ♪ And looking back down at me ♪ ♪ Smiled reassuringly ♪ ♪ And I dreamed I was flying ♪ ♪ And high up above my eyes could clearly see ♪ ♪ The Statue of Liberty ♪ ♪ Sailing away to sea ♪ ♪ And I dreamed I was flying ♪ (audience cheering) ♪ We didn't come here on The Mayflower ♪ ♪ We came on a ship in the blood red moon ♪ ♪ We come in the age's most uncertain hours ♪ ♪ And sing an American tune ♪ (audience cheering)