>> Announcer: DONNYBROOK IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE SUPPORT OF THE BETSY AND THOMAS PATTERSON FOUNDATION AND THE MEMBERS OF NINE PBS.

>>> ALL RIGHT, EVERYBODY.

THANKS FOR JOINING US FOR THIS EDITION OF DONNYBROOK.

GREAT TO HAVE YOU WITH US AND ON THE SECOND HALF OF THE PROGRAM, ALVIN AND RAY ARE GOING TO TALK TO STEVE BRAWLEY, WHO'S THE FOUNDER AND THE HISTORIAN FOR THE LGBT HISTORY PROJECT.

THAT WILL BE FASCINATING, JUST ABOUT HALFWAY THROUGH THIS EPISODE.

LET'S MEET OUR PANELISTS, STARTING WITH THE NEWS DIRECTOR FOR THE BIG 550 KTRS, WENDY WIESE.

ALSO THE COHOST THE JENNIFER AND WENDY SHOW.

SITTING IN FOR BILL McCLELLAN WHO'S TAKING THE WEEK OFF, WE WELCOME FROM THE ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH MR. JOE HOLLEMAN.

FROM RAWSTORY.COM, THE RIVERFRONT TIMES, AND HIS OWN PROGRAM ON 550 AM, MR. RAY HARTMANN.

AND WE WELCOME FROM THE ST. LOUIS AMERICAN, THE PRIDE KIRKWOOD, ALVIN REID AS WE TAKE A LOOK AT THE TIME SERVED FOR THE FORMER COUNTY EXECUTIVE STEVE STENGER, WHO WAS FOUND GUILTY OF A PAY-TO-PLAY SORT OF DEAL WHERE HE WAS GIVING GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS IN EXCHANGE FOR CAMPAIGN DONATIONS.

HE WAS SENTENCED TO ALMOST FOUR YEARS IN JAIL.

HE WENT TO JAIL SEPTEMBER OF 2019.

NOW HE'S OUT.

WE UNDERSTAND HE'S LIVING IN HOUSE ARREST IN HIS OWN HOME SOMEWHERE IN THE GREATER ST. LOUIS AREA.

THAT'S LESS THAN HALF THE TIME SERVED, ALTHOUGH HE'LL GET OUT OF HOUSE ARREST IN LATE DECEMBER.

NONETHELESS, WHAT KIND OF SIGNAL IS THAT WHEN THE WHITE COLLAR CRIMINALS ARE SERVING FULLY HALF OF THE TIME THEY WERE SENTENCED TO?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, NEVER MIND THE WHITE COLLAR CRIMINAL.

THIS IS POLITICAL CORRUPTION.

SO YOU DIDN'T, YOU KNOW, YOU DIDN'T RIP OFF A BUSINESS, A COMPA COMPANY, INDIVIDUAL INVESTORS.

YOU STOLE FROM MORE THAN A MILLION PEOPLE AND IF YOU STEAL FROM THAT MANY PEOPLE, I THINK THE PUNISHMENT THAT YOU'RE GIVEN IS THE PUNISHMENT YOU SHOULD SERVE.

THAT WAY, YOU AT LEAST GET POLITICIANS TO THINK TWICE MAYBE BEFORE THEY JUST STEAL AND JUST GO BUTT WILD.

I DON'T WANT ANYBODY TO GO TO PRISON, OKAY, BEFORE THEY HAVE DONE SOMETHING THAT SENDS THEM THERE, BUT ONCE THEY GET SENT THERE -- OKAY?

-- I START LOSING MY PATIENCE WITH WHY AREN'T THEY STILL IN THERE, OKAY?

AND THERE'S NO JUSTIFICATION, I THINK, FOR THE FORMER COUNTY EXECUTIVE TO BE JUST OUT.

I DON'T CARE WHERE HE LIVES AT THAT TIME.

I DON'T CARE HOW MUCH HIS HOUSE COST.

IT'S JUST -- WHY IS HE OUT?

>> IT'S DECEIVING AND DEFLATING AND AS RITA HEARD DAYS ON THE ST. LOUIS COUNTY COUNCIL SAID THE OTHER NIGHT, IT'S SUCH A GREAT ILLUSTRATION OF THE SENTENCING INEQUITIES AND HOW UNFAIR IT IS FOR PEOPLE TO LOOK AT SOMEBODY LIKE STEVE STENGER WHO, AS ALVIN ACCURATELY, YOU KNOW, IS DESCRIBING, THE DAMAGE THAT HE DID TO THE PUBLIC TRUST WAS SERIOUS, REALLY SERIOUS, AND FOR TO THINK OF HIM OUT IN LESS THAN HALF THE TIME SENTENCED IS ALSO SERIOUS AND AWFUL.

>> I ONLY DISAGREE WITH THE COUNCILWOMAN IN THAT I THINK THERE IS A CONSISTENCY IN THE FACT THAT PRETTY MUCH EVERY CORRUPT POLITICIAN WHO GOES TO JAIL GETS LET OUT EARLY.

SO I THINK IT'S FAIRLY CONSISTENT, YOU KNOW THAT, THEY GET CUT LOOSE.

YOU KNOW, I GUESS YOU HAVE TO LIVE WITH THE FACT THAT HE'S ALWAYS GOING TO BE DOWN AS THE FORMER FELON, STEVE STENGER, RUINED A CAREER, WHAT HAVE YOU.

SO MANY PEOPLE GET LET OUT EARLY ON A LOT OF CHARGES, CRIMINAL, CORRUPTION, WHATEVER, THAT I THINK SHOULDN'T, BUT THEN AGAIN, WHERE DO YOU DRAW THE LINE AT?

ARE YOU A DANGER TO SOCIETY?

EVERYBODY KNOWS WHAT STEVE STENGER IS AND HE'S LIKE EVERY OTHER CROOKED POLITICIAN THAT GOT OUT EARLY.

>> HE SEEMED SO UNAPOLOGETIC.

SO UNAPOLOGETIC.

>> I WAS A DIFFERENT VIEW OF IT.

I WAS SURPRISED HE ONLY GOT 46 MONTHS.

HE SHOULD HAVE GOT -- SCOTT ROSENBLOOM DID A VERY GOOD JOB FOR HIM IN THAT RESPECT.

AS FAR AS HIS RELEASE, HE DIDN'T RELEASE HIMSELF, OBVIOUSLY.

HE ALSO DIDN'T WRITE THE RULES, WHICH THE RULES PROVIDE FOR -- AND THEY'RE NOT IRRATIONAL, FOR PEOPLE TO BE INCENTIVIZED FOR GOOD BEHAVIOR TO GET OUT EARLY AND THAT MAKES SENSE IF YOU'RE RUNNING A PRISON SYSTEM, AND IT'S A FEDERAL SYSTEM.

THEY ALSO PROVIDE FOR PEOPLE GETTING OUT EARLY FOR DRUG REHABILITATION.

AGAIN, YOU CAN ARGUE WHETHER HE SHOULD HAVE QUALIFIED FOR IT, WHATEVER, BUT THOSE ARE NOT UNREASONABLE RULES AND I DON'T THINK HE -- AND PARTICULARLY WITH COVID, A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE BEEN GETTING OUT EARLIER ACROSS THE SPECTRUM BECAUSE OF THAT.

SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK THE ARGUMENT ABOUT HIM GETTING OUT TOO EARLY IS REALLY -- I THINK RITA'S ARGUMENT IS GREAT ABOUT THE SYSTEMIC INJUSTICE, BUT THE IDEA OF HIM GETTING OUT TOO EARLY IS REALLY JUST THE SYSTEM WE HAVE.

>> I WOULD SAY CHANGE THE SYSTEM THROUGH LEGISLATION.

I DON'T THINK PEOPLE SHOULD GET OUT THAT EARLY.

THAT'S MY OPINION, BUT ALSO, DURING COVID, WHAT WE FOUND, RAY, I MEAN TOM SULLIVAN, THE GOVERNMENT WATCHDOG HAS SHOWN THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE SPENDING A YEAR, TWO YEARS, THREE YEARS, IN JAIL AWAITING THEIR TRIAL.

THEY'RE SPENDING MORE TIME WAITING FOR TRIALS IN OUR AREA.

ONE GUY IN THE COUNTY HAS BEEN IN THE JAIL FOR FIVE YEARS WAITING AND -- >> THAT'S THE KIND OF STUFF RITA IS TALKING ABOUT AND SHE'S RIGHT.

>> I'LL TELL YOU WHAT.

IF THAT MAKES THE -- THE GUY GOT CONVICTED AND HE'S SPENDING LESS TIME IN JAIL THAN THE PEOPLE WHO HAVEN'T EVEN GONE TO TRIAL YET.

>> AND AGAIN, IT'S GOT TO DO WITH WEALTH AND YOUR REPRESENTATION, BUT THE POINT IS THAT WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF FEDERAL PRISONERS, HE RECEIVED WHAT THEY RECEIVE AND IT'S -- >> WELL, NOW, OKAY, SPEAKING OF COMING AND GOING, WENDY WIESE, NICOLE GALLOWAY, THE ONLY DEMOCRAT THAT HAS STATEWIDE OFFICER, SHE'S THE AUDITOR, HAS ANNOUNCED THAT SHE'S NOT RUNNING FOR RE-ELECTION.

SHE'S GOING TO SPEND MORE TIME WITH HER FAMILY.

WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION TO THAT, WENDY?

>> I THOUGHT THAT WAS AS LEGITIMATE A REASON AS, YOU KNOW, WE'VE HEARD BECAUSE IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, WHEN A WOMAN SAYS I'VE MISSED COUNTLESS FAMILY EVENTS, I'VE MISSED COUNT COUNTLESS LITTLE LEAGUE GAMES, MY HUSBAND AND FRIENDS HAVE BEEN VERY PATIENT ABOUT THIS.

SINCE I WAS APPOINTED BY THEN GOVERNOR NIXON AFTER THE UNTIMELY DEATH OF TOM SCHWEICH IN 2015, I APPLAUD HER AND WISH HER WELL AND ALL THIS POLITICAL HAND WRINGING ABOUT HOW SHE'S THE ONLY DEMOCRATIC STATE OFFICE HOLDER, THAT'S NOT ON HER.

THE PARTY WILL FIND SOMEONE TO WORK IN THERE, BUT I WISH HER WELL.

>> AND SHE WAS A REALLY GOOD AUDITOR.

YOU DON'T HEAR MANY REPUBLICANS EVEN -- I MEAN, IN THE CONTEXT OF SOME POLITICIANS, SHE'S NOT SOMEBODY THAT THE REPUBLICANS MESSED WITH VERY OFTEN IN THE CONTEXT OF HER AUDITS.

SHE'S REALLY RESPECTED ACROSS THE AISLE.

I THINK SHE'S DONE WELL.

NOTHING IS FOREVER.

SHE MIGHT COME BACK TO THE POLITICAL SCENE, BUT I THINK SHE WOULD HAVE WON RE-ELECTION, I DO, IN 2022.

WHICH ISN'T A CERTAINTY BECAUSE THIS IS -- NORMALLY THE OFF YEAR IS NOT GOOD FOR THE PARTY IN POWER NATIONALLY, SO WHILE IT IS IN POWER IN MISSOURI, I JUST THINK -- >> FOR AN AUDITOR, SHE'S -- >> I TAKE HER WORD ON THIS.

>> WHAT ABOUT VICKY HARTZLER WHO HAS THROWN HER HAT IN THE RING, HER BONNET OR WHATEVER YOU CALL IT, TO RUN FOR U.S. SENATE?

AS WE KNOW, THE SENIOR SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF MISSOURI, ROY BLUNT, IS STEPPING DOWN.

NOW WE HAVE MARK McCARLLOARLOS CLOSK, THE ST. LOUIS ATTORNEY, ERIC SCHMITT AND VICKY HARTZLER.

WHO WINS AND WHO LOSES?

>> THE CONVENTIONAL WIZ DONL IS THE MORE CANDIDATES, THE BETTER FOR GREITENS IF HE HAS THE Q-ANON BASE LOCKED UP.

BUT VICKY HARTZLER IS UNDERESTIMATED ON THIS HALF OF THE STATE AND I DON'T JUST SAY THAT BECAUSE SHE'S A FELLOW MIZZOU.

SHE'S A VERY CONSERVATIVE -- VERY RIGHT-WING CONGRESSWOMAN, BUT SHE HAS A LOT OF PRESENCE IN THE COLUMBIA AND THE KANSAS CITY MEDIA MARKETS IN PARTICULAR BECAUSE OF THE NATURE OF HER DISTRICT AND I WOULD SAY THAT MUCH LIKE -- I KNOW ANNE WAGNER IS LOOKING AT THIS RACE.

SHE'S GOT TO PRETTY -- IF I CAN USE A SPORTS ANALOGY, IF SOMEBODY JUMPS OFFSIDES AT A FOOTBALL GAME, YOU HAVE WHAT YOU CALL A FREE PLAY.

THIS IS A FREE LOOK FOR ANY MEMBER OF CONGRESS.

JASON SMITH IN SOUTHEAST MISSOURI AND WHAT'S THAT IN THE SOUTHWEST, THE CONGRESSMAN WHO'S -- BILLY LONG.

BOTH ARE LOOKING AT IT, HAVE GONE TO MAR-A-LAGO.

YOU KNOW, EVERYBODY GETS A FREE LOOK.

ANY MONEY THEY RAISE, THEY CAN USE IT FOR RE-ELECTION NEXT YEAR.

I WOULDN'T RULE HER OUT.

IF I WASN'T GOING TO BE GREITENS, I'D ARGUE SHE HAS AS GOOD A CHANCE AS ANY OF THE CHALLENGERS TO WIN THAT.

>> I THINK THAT -- GO AHEAD.

>> NO, GO AHEAD, ALVIN.

>> I WAS GOING TO SAY, WHAT CAN SHE PLAY?

SHE CAN PLAY THE ST. LOUIS CARD, THAT'S A CLOWN SHOW IN ST. LOUIS.

McCLOSKEY, GREITENS, SCHMITT, THAT'S A CLOWN SHOW.

I'M TALKING ABOUT SERIOUS DOWNHOME POLITICS ON THIS SIDE OF THE STATE.

I CALLED BILLY LONG HUEY LONG THE OTHER DAY ON A SHOW I WAS ON.

I DON'T THINK HE'S THAT BAD, BUT WHO IS HE?

NO, SHE HAS HALF THE STATE IN HER POCKET WHILE I THINK WE'RE FIGHTING OVER VOTES IN THE LARGEST METROPOLITAN AREA ON THIS SIDE.

I THINK SHE'S GOT A VERY GOOD CHANCE.

SHE ALSO HAS ACROSS THE BOARD MORE MONEY, WHICH NONE OF THESE FOLKS ON THIS SIDE HAVE.

NOTHING FROM ILLINOIS, BUT THE PEOPLE FROM MISSOURI LIVE ON THAT -- IT'S VERY AFFLUENT OVER THERE IN OVERLAND PARK AND ALL THOSE PLACES.

THERE'S A LOT OF MONEY COMING BACK TO HER FROM PEOPLE WHO DON'T EVEN LIVE IN THE STATE.

>> I THOUGHT IT WAS REALLY INTERESTING AND VERY TELLING THAT THE FIRST THING SHE DID WAS INVOKE THE NAME OF THE TITULAR HEAD OF THE GOP AND TALK ABOUT PRESIDENT TRUMP.

IF PEOPLE ARE TIRED OF PRESIDENT TRUMP, THE SHADOWY PRESENCE IN THE DISTANCE, IT DOESN'T LIKE IT'S GOING TO DISSIPATE ANYTIME SOON.

>> I STILL THINK THAT ERIC SCHMITT IS THE FAVORITE, BUT -- >> ERIC SCHMITT OR ERIC GREITENS?

>> ERIC SCHMITT.

I DON'T SAY THAT GREITENS IS NOT A VIABLE CANDIDATE, BUT HE ALSO CLEARLY, AS WE REPORTED, HAS SOME BAGGAGE.

ERIC SCHMITT ALSO STATEWIDE, NAME RECOGNITION.

I THINK SOMETIMES THAT WE THINK THAT EVERYBODY PAYS AS MUCH ATTENTION TO POLITICS AS WE DO, AND THEY DON'T.

I CAN GUARANTEE YOU THAT OVER THE YEARS OF BEING A REPORTER AND THEY'RE GOING TO GO, YEAH, ERIC SCHMITT, ATTORNEY GENERAL.

I STILL PUT HIM AS THE FAVORITE.

CAN ANY OF THE THREE PEOPLE, GREITENS OR HARTZLER OR SCHMITT WIN?

ABSOLUTELY, BUT RIGHT NOW, I'D PUT SCHMITT AT NUMBER ONE.

>> IF GREITENS -- >> WE REALLY SHOULD MOVE ALONG BECAUSE OF TIME.

JOE, SPEAKING OF CONGRESSWOMEN AND WE WERE WITH VICKY HARTZLER, CORI BUSH, I THINK IS KIND OF GETTING A PASS BECAUSE SHE'S DOING SOMETHING COMPLETELY UNPREDECESSOR, BUT NOT GETTING -- UNPRESS DENTZ, BUT NOT GETTING A LOT OF ATTENTION TO IT.

SHE'S VOTING AGAINST MILITARY CONTRACTS NOT ONLY IN THE ST. LOUIS AREA, BUT HER OWN DISTRICT.

FOR EXAMPLE, THE DELEGATION FROM MISSOURI, EVERY ONE, EVEN THE EMMANUEL CLEAVER AND BOTH U.S.

SENATORS, VOTED TO SEND A LETTER TO BOEING TO SAY -- RATHER, TO THE NAVY, SAYING YOU'VE GOT TO CONTINUE TO ORDER THESE FA-18 HORNETS WHICH HAPPEN TO BE MADE IN NORTH COUNTY IN CORI BUSH'S DISTRICT, AND SHE WAS THE ONLY PERSON WHO DIDN'T SIGN THAT LETTER, ASKING THE NAVY TO KEEP THAT PRODUCTION LINE GOING.

SAM PAGE SAID THAT'S 16,000 JOBS AT STAKE.

THEN SHE ACTUALLY VOTED AGAINST THE JOINT DIRECT ATTACK MUNITIONS, THE JDAM, THE WEAPON BEING SOLD TO ISRAEL THAT'S MADE IN ST. CHARLES AND SHE SIGNED A LETTER WITH OTHER MEMBERS OF THE SQUAD SAYING SHE DOESN'T WANT THE BOEING PRODUCTION TO BE SENDING THAT OUT TO ISRAEL.

I'VE NEVER SEEN ANYTHING QUITE LIKE THIS.

IS SHE PRINCIPLED OR A LITTLE CRAZY OR HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THAT?

>> I'M GOING TO SAY THAT SHE'S NEITHER AND TAKE THAT AS THE COMPLIMENT OR INSULT THAT ANYBODY WANTS TO.

I THINK SHE'S JUST DECIDED TO ALIGN HERSELF, AS YOU MENTIONED IT, WITH THE SQUAD AND IT WAS SQUAD POSITION.

AND I DON'T NECESSARILY HAVE A PROBLEM WITH A POLITICIAN VOTING AGAINST SOMETHING BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE THAT IS INDEED WHAT IS THE BEST THING FOR THE PEOPLE THEY REPRESENT, BUT THE TWO THINGS THAT I'VE HEARD FROM MS. BUSH SINCE SHE'S BEEN IN THE OFFICE IS THAT WE NEED LESS POLICE OFFICERS, MONEY INVESTED IN POLICING IS NEVER A GOOD IDEA, I BELIEVE WHAT SHE SAID, AND SHE'S AGAINST JOBS IN HER DISTRICT.

I'M CURIOUS, THE PEOPLE WHO ELECTED HER, THAT IS REALLY WHAT YOU ENVISIONED THAT DISTRICT TO BE, THAT THAT DISTRICT MEANS LESS POLICE AND LESS JOBS?

I DON'T THINK IT IS.

FIRST OFF, IF YOU ACTUALLY TALK TO PEOPLE, THEY WOULDN'T AGREE, BUT I THINK WHEN YOU HAVE SOMEONE WHO GOT ELECTED, IT SEEMS CLEAR TO ME THAT THE THING SHE IS TAKING THE MOST PRIDE IN IS BEING A MEMBER OF THE SQUAD AND THIS IS WHAT THE SQUAD WANTS TO DO.

AND I THINK THAT'S WHERE YOU HAVE IT.

WE'LL SEE IN TWO YEARS HOW WELL THAT PLAYS OUT.

SHOULD THOSE JOBS DISAPPEAR, SHOULD THE POLICE QUIT SHOWING UP, WE'LL SEE WHERE IT GOES.

>> I DISAGREE WITH JOE AND LET ME SAY THIS.

FIRST OF ALL, CRAZY, RIDICULOUS, THIS IS HER PHILOSOPHY.

SHE BELIEVES -- AND I DISAGREE WITH JOE.

FIRST OF ALL, I DON'T AGREE WITH HER DECISION ABOUT ISRAEL.

I THINK THAT'S NOT -- I DISAGREE WITH IT, BUT HERE'S THE DEAL.

SHE DIDN'T DECIDE TO ALIGN HERSELF WITH THE SQUAD.

IT'S WHAT SHE BELIEVES.

SHE HAS A VERY SIMILAR BELIEF TO AOC AND SOME OF THE OTHERS IN THE SQUAD.

THAT'S DIFFERENT -- WHEN YOU SAY SHE'S TRYING TO ALIGN, IT'S SORT OF LIKE SHE'S AFFECTED HERE.

THIS IS WHAT SHE BELIEVES AND -- >> AND YOU THINK OF THIS FROM WHAT EXPERTISE?

YOU SAT DOWN AND IN-DEPTH CONVERSATIONS WITH HER?

SHE'S SIMPLY EMBRACED THE SQUAD THEORIES.

>> THERE'S STRENGTH IN NUMBERS.

>> TO THE POINT THAT JOE MADE, I THINK THAT SHE RAN VERY CLEARLY ON POLICE REFORM.

I DON'T THINK THAT NECESSARILY MEANS THAT YOU'RE ALWAYS AGAINST ALL POLICING, BUT SHE DEFINITELY RAN ON THAT.

TO SAY THAT SHE'S AGAINST JOBS, I ACTUALLY LIKE THE FACT THAT A CONGRESS PERSON IS WILLING TO CALL THEM AS THEY SEE THEM.

WHEN THEY DON'T, IN PARTICULAR WHEN IT'S IN ANOTHER DISTRICT, THERE'S A WORD WE HAVE FOR IT.

IT'S PORK.

WE ALWAYS ACCUSE THE CONGRESSMEN IN OTHER DISTRICTS OF BEING ADVOCATES OF PORK, HAVE NO PRINCIPLES, ALL THEY CARE ABOUT THEIR JOBS.

THEY'D BE FOR AL-QAEDA IF IT BROUGHT JOBS TO THE DRICT.

I DON'T BELIEVE IT'S A CRIME FOR HER TO STAND UP FOR WHAT SHE THINKS AND I HAPPEN TO AGREE WITH THE GENERAL FEELING THAT WE ARE SENDING WAY TOO MUCH OF OUR MILITARY RESOURCES ON FIGHTING YESTERDAY'S -- THE LAST WAR AND NOT NEARLY ENOUGH ON CYBERSECURITY, WHICH IS WHAT WE REALLY NEED TO BE FOCUSED ON.

>> ENOUGH TO SAY GOODBYE TO THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF JOBS?

>> THE JOBS AREN'T GOING ANYWHERE AND THEY'RE NOT PAYING ANY ATTENTION TO CORI BUSH.

CORI BUSH ALSO WANTS TO DEMOCRATIZE THE UTILITY COMPANY, AMEREN GOING TO LOSE THEIR MIND AND LEAVE ST. LOUIS BECAUSE OF CORI BUSH?

THERE'S ONLY SO MUCH -- YOU CAN PAY ATTENTION TO IT, BUT ALL THIS DRASTIC ACTION OVER, THIS THAT'S NOT -- AND I'LL THROW IN, TOO.

ANNE WAGNER REPRESENTS ME.

SHE MAY NOT BE ANY PART OF ANY SQUAD OR THIS OR PHILOSOPHICAL, BUT SHE'S MADE ALL KIND OF VOTES THAT I GUARANTEE YOU 45% OF THE PEOPLE, MORE THAN THAT, IN HER DISTRICT DISAGREE WITH 1,000%, BUT WE'RE NOT GOING TO SAY THAT, OH, WELL, SHE DOESN'T REPRESENT US.

YOU KNOW -- >> I DON'T BELIEVE -- I THINK 45% IS TOO LOW.

IF YOU ASK PEOPLE IN THE FIRST DISTRICT IF THEY THOUGHT THEY NEEDED MORE POLICE OR NOT OR MORE JOBS OR NOT, I THINK IT'S HIGHER THAN 45%.

>> I THINK IT'S -- >> I'M TALKING ABOUT THE THINGS SHE VOTES ON THAT WE DISAGREE WITH WHO DID NOT VOTE FOR HER.

SHE DIDN'T WIN 65/45.

IT WAS LESS THAN THAT.

>> BUT YOU AGREE WITH PRINCIPLES -- >> I GOT IT.

HAS ANY MEMBER OF CONGRESS EVER VOTED AGAINST A WEAPON OR A MILITARY PROJECT IN HIS OR HER OWN DISTRICT IN THE HISTORY OF THE UNITED STATES?

>> I MENTION THIS.

CHARLIEING I'M NOT SURE OF THE -- >> I'VE NEVER SEEN IT.

>> IF YOU WANT TO MAKE A HUGE BET ON THAT, THAT THAT'S IN TRIPLE FIGURES OVER THE LAST 100 YEARS, I -- I'LL TAKE THAT BET, SO DON'T WALK DOWN THAT ROAD BECAUSE I GUARANTEE YOU -- >> HOW ABOUT A SANDWICH AT NATHANIEL REED IN KIRKWOOD.

>> YOU'RE ON, YOU'RE ON.

>> OKAY, SO ALVIN I'M GOING TO MOVE TO THE NEXT TOPIC WHICH IS TOD ROBBERSON IS THE EDITORIAL PAGE EDITOR OF THE ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH.

HE ANNOUNCED IN HIS COLUMN THIS WEEK IN A STORY HE WROTE THAT HIS WIFE HAS TAKEN A JOB IN THE ARTS IN HARTFORD, CONNECTICUT, AND SO HE'S GOING TO HAVE AN APARTMENT HERE IN TOWN.

HE'LL SPEND 50% OF HIS TIME HERE IN ST. LOUIS, 50% IN HARTFORD.

WE ARE IN THE AGE OF TELECOMMUTING AND WORKING VIRTUALLY.

EVERYONE IS DOING THAT.

CAN AN EDITORIAL PAGE EDITOR OF THE CITY'S LARGEST PAPER DO THAT?

>> ABSOLUTELY NOT AND I THINK THAT -- THIS IS NOT JUST ON HIM, BUT IF YOU CAN'T BE BOTHERED WITH ST. LOUIS, WHY DOES ST. LOUIS HAVE TO BE BOTHERED WITH YOU?

I THINK THIS IS RIDICULOUS, OKAY?

AND TOO, I WOULD LIKE TO APPROACH MY WIFE AND SAY, HEY, I GOT AN APARTMENT BACK IN ST. LOUIS AND I'M GOING TO LIVE WITH YOU SOME OF THE SOMETIME AND I'LL BE BACK IN ST. LOUIS SOME OF THE TIME.

SHE'D LOOK AT ME AND SAY, NO YOU AIN'T.

SO I JUST -- NO.

YOU KNOW, LIKE NO!

THIS IS -- NO.

MOVE ON.

GET A JOB IN HARTFORD.

GET A JOB IN ESPN.

THAT'S RIGHT DOWN THE ROAD IN BRISTOL.

GET A JOB SOMEPLACE ELSE AND MOVE ON BECAUSE, LOOK, PEOPLE THINK YOU GOT VENDETTAS AGAINST PEOPLE -- THE MAYOR -- ALL RIGHT?

AND SO NOW YOU'RE GOING TO PLAY THIS OUT WHEN YOU'RE NOT EVEN LIVING IN ST. LOUIS?

YOU'RE GOING TO BE COMMENTING, DIRECTING THE EDITORIAL PAGE OF A FINE NEWSPAPER AND YOU'RE NOT LIVING IN ST. LOUIS?

FINE, GOOD RIDDANCE, SAYONARA.

>> I HAVE A BIG PROBLEM WITH THE ST. LOUIS -- THAT'S JUST MY -- >> I DON'T THINK TOD AND HIS WIFE CARE.

>> I THINK HE SHOULD GET -- >> YEAH, THAT'S TRUE.

>> I'M SORRY, BUT ALVIN'S RIGHT AND GIVE HIM THE BRYAN HALL AWARD.

HE'S MOVED HERE, I BELIEVE, BUT HE SPENT A DECADE WHERE HE WAS PROMOTING HOW GREAT ST. LOUIS WAS AND HE WAS WRITING HIS COMMENTS ON THE WAY HOME TO BALTIMORE ON SOUTHWEST AIRLINES.

>> BUT IT WORKED FOR -- >> HE WROTE SOME GREAT STUFF ABOUT THAT.

IT DOESN'T REALLY MAKE US LOOK THAT GREAT THAT THE PEOPLE -- THE GUY TELLING US ALL HOW TO LIVE IN ST. LOUIS ISN'T EVEN LIVING HERE.

>> BUT YOU'RE ALL 250th CENTURY.

THIS IS THE -- 20th CENTURY.

THIS IS THE 21st CENTURY AND AFTER COVID, WE KNOW THAT PEOPLE -- FIRST OF ALL, PEOPLE HAVE BEEN WORKING FROM AFAR FOR A LONG TIME.

ELAINE BEACH WAS LIVING IN FLORIDA -- >> NOT THIS JOB.

>> WE HAD ROBERT SHAPIRO, THE CEO OF MONSANTO LIVING IN CHICAGO.

THAT'S HOW THINGS WORK.

>> BOB CLARK.

>> THAT'S NOT HOW THINGS WORK FOR CERTAIN POSITIONS, AND THAT'S ONE.

>> AND BY THE WAY, I'LL FULLY ADMIT IF HE WASN'T -- DIDN'T HAVE THE KIND OF EDITORIAL POSITION, INCLUDING THIS INCREDIBLE VENDETTA, I DON'T THINK I'VE EVER SEEN A WORSE PERSONAL VENDETTA THAN THE POST HAS AGAINST TISHAURA JONES GOING BACK TO HER DAYS AS TREASURER, SO YEAH, I'M DEFINITELY BIASED.

>> I PERSONALLY, AS AN EMPLOYEE OF THAT COMPANY, I DON'T SEE WHY YOU GUYS ARE MAKING SUCH A BIG DEAL ABOUT IT.

FOR YEARS, READERS AND A LOT OF EX-READERS HAVE MADE THE POINT THAT THE POST-DISPATCH EDITORIAL PAGE SOUNDS LIKE SOMETHING THAT'S WRITTEN BY LIBERALS ON THE EAST COAST.

THERE YOU GO.

[ LAUGHTER ] I DON'T SEE WHAT YOU ALL ARE UPSET ABOUT.

I HONESTLY DON'T.

>> I THINK IT'S INTERESTING THAT ALL OF YOU FEMINISTS ON THE PANEL ARE DECRYING THIS DECISION ON THE PART OF THE TWO -- OF THE COUPLE.

I SAY GOOD FOR THEM AND I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE FINE.

>> OH, NO -- >> IF THE POST-DISPATCH -- >> CAN I JUMP IN REAL FAST?

>> WENDY, I'M FOR HIM MOVING TO HARTFORD BECAUSE HIS WIFE'S POSITION SHOULD COME FIRST.

I'M NOT BEING -- SAYING ANYTHING AGAINST THAT.

I'M JUST SAYING HE SHOULDN'T BE TELLING PEOPLE HOW TO LIVE IN ST. LOUIS WHILE HE'S LIVING IN HARTFORD.

THAT'S ALL.

>> REAL QUICK, I'M GOING TO SAY, WE MADE DECISIONS TO GO INTO THE PROFESSION WE DID.

AT ONE POINT, I TRAVELED MORE.

I WAS A THE SUNDAY EDITOR, I WORKED EVERY SUNDAY, ON CHRISTMAS DAY.

WE'VE ALL WORK ON HOLIDAYS BECAUSE WE CHOSE THE PROFESSION THAT WE WENT INTO, OKAY?

IT DOES NOT CHANGE THAT THERE'S NOW A DIGITAL AGE AND ALL THAT.

WE WANTED TO DO WHAT WE WANTED TO DO WHERE WE LIVED AT.

>> IT ACTUALLY DOES.

IT ACTUALLY DOES.

>> NO, IT DOESN'T, IT DOESN'T.

>> I THINK THAT YOU CAN WRITE YOUR COLUMNS FROM ANYWHERE T ALVIN, KNOWING WHAT YOU KNOW -- >> BUT I CAN'T RUN A NEWSPAPER.

I CAN'T RUN A NEWSROOM.

I CAN'T BE IN CHARGE OF THE EDITORIAL PAGE LIVING ANY PLACE ELSE OTHER THAN THE TOWN I'M COVERING.

YOU JUST CAN'T DO IT.

>> I TELL YOU WHAT, ALVIN IN RADIO, ISN'T IT TRUE THAT FRANK DID HIS SLOW FROM -- >> CALIFORNIA, CALIFORNIA.

>> NO ONE KNEW.

FOR ALL WE KNOW, TOD ROBBERSON IS WRITING A LOT OF HIS COLUMNS OUT OF HARTFORD NOW AND WE WOULDN'T KNOW.

>> HE'S THE BOSS OF THE EDITORIAL PAGE AND THE BOSS SHOULD BE IN TOWN.

>> OKAY.

HOW ABOUT YOU, JOE?

SPEAKING OF WHERE PEOPLE SHOULD SLEEP, JEFF CARSON, THE INTERIM JAIL COMMISSIONER IN ST. LOUIS, SAYS THAT WHILE THE MAYOR IS MOVING INMATES OR RESIDENTS FROM THE CITY'S WORKHOUSE TO THE CITY JUSTICE CENTER DOWNTOWN IN ST. LOUIS, THAT THEY DON'T HAVE ENOUGH ROOM.

THEY DON'T HAVE ENOUGH MATTRESSES, SO THESE GUYS, AND MAYBE GALS, ARE SLEEPING ON THE FLOOR OR THEY'RE SLEEPING ON BENCHES, BUT THEY DO HAVE SHOWERS.

SO THERE'S GOOD NEWS THERE.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF IT WHERE THE MAYOR IS MOVING PEOPLE OUT OF THE WORKHOUSE WHERE THEY HAVE BEDS TO THE JUSTICE CENTER WHERE THEY SLEEP ON THE FLOOR?

>> I THINK IT IS A WONDERFUL RETURN TO OLD-SCHOOL POLITICS WHERE YOU LOOK DOWN THE CHECKLIST OF THINGS THAT YOU PROMISED TO DO WHEN YOU WERE CAMPAIGNING AND YOU DECIDE YOU NEED TO DO AT LEAST ONE OF THOSE THINGS.

TO HECK WITH THE CONSEQUENCES, TO HECK WHETHER IT'S WELL-PLANNED OR HOW IT WOULD BE EXECUTED.

JUST DO IT, AND THEN WE'LL FIX IT LATER.

BUT WHEN THE TIME COMES FOR RE-ELECTION, YOU SAY REMEMBER HOW I SAID I'D CLOSE THE WORKHOUSE?

I CLOSED THE WORKHOUSE.

SO IF THEY HAVE TO SLEEP ON THE FLOOR, IF THE LOCKS DON'T WORK, NONE OF THAT MATTERS.

THIS IS ALL ABOUT FULFILLING THAT ONE LITTLE IDEA.

>> THERE'S POSTERS AGAINST THE MAYOR -- >> THE LOCKS DIDN'T WORK BEFORE SHE WAS THE MAYOR, OKAY.

>> SHE CAN SAY I KEPT MY PROMISE.

>> THE LOCKS DIDN'T WORK LONG BEFORE SHE WAS THE MAYOR, SO DON'T HEAP THAT ON HER.

>> IT'S KEEPING A CAMPAIGN PROMISE THAT MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL.

THERE'S NO MAGIC IN 100 DAYS, ALVIN.

DO IT RIGHT, DO IT RIGHT AND -- >> YOU DON'T CARE WHAT HAPPENS TO ANY INMATE OTHER THAN WHAT -- PEOPLE DON'T CARE WHAT HAPPENS TO THOSE INMATES OTHER THAN HOW IT PLAYS POLITICALLY.

SO THEY GOT TO SLEEP ON THE FLOOR.

THE DAY WILL COME THEY WON'T SLEEP ON THE FLOOR.

THEY WANT THEM TO SLEEP IN THE RADISSON, THE RITZ CARLTON?

>> SO YOUR POSITION IS IT'S OKAY TO MISSTREET THE PRISONERS -- MISTREAT THE PRISONERS AS LONG AS SHE KEEPS HER CAMPAIGN PROMISE?

>> I DON'T CARE IT'S BEING MISTREATED.

YOU MIGHT SLEEP OUT HERE IN AN OPEN AREA.

>> OR YOU CAN DO AT THIS TIME LOGICALLY WITH A PLAN.

>> OR I CAN NOT GO TO JAIL IN THE FIRST PLACE.

HOW ABOUT THAT?

HOW ABOUT DON'T GO TO JAIL?

>> THEY'RE ACCUSED OF CRIMES, ALVIN, THEY'RE NOT CONVICTED YET.

>> YOU'RE RIGHT.

I STAND CORRECTED.

CHARLIE, YOU'RE RIGHT.

>> FIRST OF ALL, I THINK THE PLEDGE SHE MADE TO CLOSE THE WORKHOUSE WAS THE CORRECT ONE.

IT NEEDS TO HAPPEN, BUT -- >> BUT ISN'T THE TIMING WRONG, RAY?

>> EVEN THOUGH IT'S IN BETTER CONDITION THAN THE CITY JAIL?

>> WE DON'T KNOW THAT.

I AIN'T BEEN THERE.

>> I'VE BEEN THERE.

>> SO YOU KNOW, HUH?

CHARLIE -- OKAY.

>> I'VE GOT PHOTOS.

I'LL SHARE PHOTOS WITH YOU.

WE'LL HAVE THAT SANDWICH AT NATHANIEL REED AND WE'LL LOOK AT THE PHOTOS.

>> YOU'LL BE BUYING ME A SANDWICH AND WE'LL LOOKING AT THAT MOVIE BRUBAKER.

>> CHARLIE, THE DECISION WAS RIGHT AND THERE IS A TEMPORARY ISSUE THAT A YEAR FROM NOW NOBODY WILL REMEMBER.

IT'S A TEMPORARY SHORT-RUN INCONVENIENCE.

IT'S A BAD SITUATION, BUT IT'S TEMPORARY.

>> RAY, HOLD YOUR FIRE BECAUSE IN A MOMENT, YOU'LL BE POSING QUESTIONS TO STEVE BRAWLEY, THE FOUNDER AND HISTORIAN FOR THE LGBT HISTORY PROJECT IN ST. LOUIS.

THAT'S ON NEXT UP.

THE REST OF YOU, JOE, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR SITTING IN FOR BILL.

HE RETURNS NEXT WEEK.

EVERYBODY, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

DON'T TOUCH THAT DIAL.

>> Announcer: DONNYBROOK IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE SUPPORT OF THE BETSY AND THOMAS PATTERSON FOUNDATION AND THE MEMBERS OF NINE PBS.

* >> WELCOME BACK.

RAY HARTMANN, ALVIN REID.

WE'RE JOINED BY STEPHEN LOUIS BRAWLEY, A HISTORIC HISTORIAN FOR THE LGBT PROJECT.

WE'RE COMING UP ON -- WE'RE ACTUALLY IN PRIDE MONTH AND STEPHEN, WELCOME ABOARD.

WE'RE GETTING ALL NEW TO THIS WITH JUST THE TWO OF US, SO IT'S FUN.

WE ALWAYS HAVE A GREAT TIME.

ANYWAY, EXPLAIN TO US WHAT'S GOING ON THIS MONTH AND I WILL TELL YOU THAT, LIKE WHEN I SIGNED ON EARLIER TODAY, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT POPPED UP ON -- LIKE MY YAHOO SCREEN IS THEY'RE GOING TO BE POSTING THINGS THROUGHOUT THE UNITED STATES, LIVE EVENTS, DIGITAL EVENTS THROUGHOUT ALL OF THE -- YOU KNOW, THE NEXT COUPLE WEEKENDS AND ALL THE MONTH.

THIS IS A BIG MONTH, YOU KNOW, FOR THE COMMUNITY AND JUST EXPLAIN KIND OF WHAT'S GOING TO BE GOING ON.

>> SURE.

BECAUSE OF THE PANDEMIC THE LAST TWO YEARS, THE PRIDE EVENTS ACROSS ST. LOUIS ARE A LITTLE DIFFERENT.

THINGS HAVE ADJUSTED.

THERE'S A LOT OF EVENTS POSTPONED, SOME CANCELLED, SO THINGS THAT HAVE HAPPENED, LAST WEEKEND THERE WAS SOMETHING CALLED A CARAVAN WHERE THERE WAS A CAR RALLY THROUGHOUT ST. LOUIS AND PEOPLE HAD DECORATED THEIR CARS AND -- THE MAYOR AND REPRESENT CORI BUSH WERE IN THE PARADE.

TO THAT WAS AN ADJUSTMENT BECAUSE NORMALLY THERE'S A BIG PRIDE FESTIVAL.

ST. LOUIS HAS AROUND, MAYBE ONE OF THE LARGEST PRIDE FESTIVALS IN THE NATION.

WE HAVE SIX INDEPENDENT PRIDE FESTIVALS, YOU KNOW, THE TRADITIONAL ONE DOWNTOWN, ST. CHARLES, METRO EAST, ALLTON, BLACK PRIDE, TRANS MARCH.

THIS YEAR THINGS ARE DIFFERENT.

THINGS ARE, LIKE I SAID, MOVING TARGETS, BUT PRIDE STILL GOES ON AS A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE PARTICIPATING IN DIFFERENT WAYS, VIRTUALLY OR SOME SCALED DOWN A BIT.

>> STEPHEN, AS A HISTORIAN, I'M NOT SURE QUITE HOW FAR BACK YOU GO, NOBODY GOES BACK AS FAR AS I DO, BUT HOW DO YOU SEE THE PROGRESS OR THE CHANGE THAT HAS BEEN MADE WITH REGARD TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC'S ATTITUDES TOWARDS THE LGBT COMMUNITY IN, SAY, THE PAST DECADE, 20 YEARS?

>> SURE.

JUST GOING BACK TO ST. LOUIS'S FOUNDING IN 1760 IS WHERE IT WAS ILLEGAL AND, OF COURSE, YOU WOULD BE STONED TO DEATH.

SO NOW, OF COURSE, THINGS ARE A LITTLE DIFFERENT.

WITH THE ADVENT OF THINGS LIKE GAY MARRIAGE, A LOT OF PEOPLE TOOK A BREATH AND ARE LIKE, OKAY, THINGS ARE OKAY NOW, BUT OF COURSE, WE KNOW THEY'RE NOT.

MISSOURI HAS DISCRIMINATION LAWS THAT DON'T PROTECT PEOPLE FROM HOUSING DISCRIMINATION, JOB DISCRIMINATION FOR SEXUAL ORIENTATION, SO THAT'S STILL A FIGHT WITH THE STATE LEGISLATURE ONGOING.

HAVE THINGS IMPROVED?

ABSOLUTELY.

THINGS ARE -- I ALWAYS SAY THAT WE STAND ON EACH OTHER'S SHOULDERS, SO THERE ARE A LOT OF YOUNGER FOLKS STANDING ON MY SHOULDERS WHO ARE GOING TO BIFRT FROM THE THINGS I'VE DONE AND I'M BENEFITING FROM THINGS MY ELDERS HAVE DONE.

WHILE THINGS ARE BETTER, THERE'S STILL SO MUCH TO DO.

THERE'S STILL A LOT HAPPENING, ESPECIALLY IN THE TRANS COMMUNITY SO MUCH THAT'S STILL BEING -- THAT WAR THAT'S BEING WAGED, SO THERE'S STILL A LOT TO DO.

>> WELL, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HISTORY AND THE PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATION WAS IN FOR FOUR YEARS.

OVER THAT FOUR YEARS, DID PROGRESS HALT?

DID PROGRESS REGRESS?

HOW DAMAGING WAS THAT TO THE LGBT COMMUNITY?

>> WELL, IT WAS BOTH A MORAL SETBACK AS WELL AS SETBACK, ESPECIALLY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION'S WAR AGAINST THE TRANS COMMUNITY, ESPECIALLY WITH THE MILITARY.

THERE WERE, YOU KNOW, OF COURSE, HE DIDN'T DO THE PROCLAMATIONS AND THE THINGS THAT BIDEN IS DOING OR OBAMA DID AND THAT'S BEEN REVIVED.

BUT YEAH, IT WAS A SETBACK, BUT I THINK COMING OFF THE HEELS OF GAY MARRIAGE AND THE SUCCESS OF THAT, I THINK BIDEN, OF COURSE, IS MAKING A LOT OF SYMBOLIC AND I THINK HE ALSO -- I DON'T HAVE ALL THE DETAILS, I THINK HE RE RESCINDED THE TRANS RULES THAT TRUMP PUT IN PLACE.

WAS IT DAMAGING?

YES.

YOU CAN SEE POLLS NATIONALLY THAT SLOW -- AND I DON'T KNOW, THE LATEST ONE THE OTHER DAY SHOWING SUPPORT FOR THE LGBTQ COMMUNITY AND SAME SEX MARRIAGE HIGHER AND HIGHER, SO IT'S NOT LIKE TRUMP DENTED INTO THAT SUPPORT.

SO WHILE WE HAVE TO BE CAUTIOUSLY OPTIMISTIC, THERE'S STILL SO MUCH TO DO, A AS I SAID, MISSOURI STILL HAS SO MUCH THINGS THAT NEED TO BE DONE, ESPECIALLY SUPPORTING OUR TRARNZ BROTHERS AND SISTERS AND MAKING SURE -- IT USED TO BE THE WHOLE ON GOD, GUNS, AND GAYS THING, THE REPUBLICAN PARTY MANTRA, AND NOW THEY USE THE BATHROOM BILLS AND ALL THAT.

IT'S ALL POLITICS AND CULTURE WAR AND WE HAVE TO BE AWARE OF IT.

>> STEPHEN, TALK ABOUT THAT CULTURE WAR IN ST. LOUIS.

WE KNOW MISSOURI -- MISSOURI ACTUALLY DIDN'T GO QUITE AS FAR AS SOME OTHER STATES THAT ACTUALLY, LIKE ARKANSAS WAS WORSE THAN OTHERS, WITH REGARD TO TRANS PEOPLE IN TERMS OF MEDICAL ISSUES FOR KIDS UNDER 18 AND SO FORTH.

AND TREATMENT, I MEAN.

AND -- TREATMENT IS NOT THE RIGHT WORD, NOT WHAT I'M LOOKING FOR, BUT THE IDEA THAT SOMEONE WHO IS TRANS CAN BE THEMSELVES IS VERY MUCH CHALLENGED NOT JUST BY TRUMP, BUT BY THE ENTIRE -- REALLY, THE ENTIRE REPUBLICAN PARTY AT THE MOMENT.

SO IS ST. LOUIS, WHICH IS NOT QUITE AS MUCH REPUBLICAN AS MAYBE THE REST OF MISSOURI, IS THIS -- WHAT ARE TRANS PEOPLE IN YOUR MIND FEELING HERE WITH PUBLIC OPINION AND POLICY?

>> YEAH, I MEAN, IT'S A MIXED BAG.

AGAIN, THINGS HAVE CHANGED OR COME A LONG WAY.

ST. LOUIS HAS A LONG HISTORY, ESPECIALLY WITH WASH-U, DOING GENDER AFFIRMING SURGERIES BACK IN THE '70s, SO ST. LOUIS WAS A WELL-KNOWN PLACE FOR PEOPLE TO HAVE, WHAT PEOPLE USED TO CALL SEX REASSIGNMENT, SEX CHANGE OPERATIONS, BUT WE STILL HEAR LOTS OF STORIES OF ISSUES WITH THE POLICE DEALING WITH THE TRANS COMMUNITY, ESPECIALLY, YOU KNOW, MISGENDERING PEOPLE AND WE'VE HEARD A LOT OF THAT, EVEN RECENTLY.

AND SO THERE'S A REAL SENSITIVITY IN THE LGBTQIA COMMUNITY IN ST. LOUIS FOR US TO BE LOOKING, HOW CAN WE SUPPORT THE TRANS COMMUNITY.

SO IT'S STILL, YOU KNOW, LIKE I SAID, THERE'S STILL SO MUCH TO DO AND SO MUCH AWARENESS TO BUILD, ESPECIALLY WITHIN EVEN THE LGBTQIA COMMUNITY, NOT EVEN UNDERSTANDING AS A WHITE MALE, WE UNDERSTANDING, I HAVE A LOT OF TRANS FRIENDS, BUT I CAN'T RELATE TO THEM BECAUSE I CAN'T PUT MYSELF IN THEIR POSITION, BUT I CAN HOPEFULLY BE AN ALLY AND BE EMPATHETIC AND HELPFUL.

>> I WANT TO EMPHASIZE, FIRST OF ALL, GENDER AFFIRMING SURGERY WAS WHAT I WAS AWKWARDLY GRASPING FOR, THE PHRASE.

I THINK PEOPLE UNDERESTIMATE -- TELL US ABOUT THE FACT THAT LGBT COMMUNITY IS MONOLITHIC AND JUST TO ASK YOU AS A GAY MAN, I THINK PEOPLE MAKE A MISTAKE OF LUMPING TOGETHER PEOPLE IN THAT COMMUNITY.

TALK ABOUT THAT.

>> YEAH, SURE, ESPECIALLY AS A HISTORIAN HERE IN ST. LOUIS AND UNDERSTANDING THE HISTORY OF PEOPLE OF COLOR IN ST. LOUIS, THE AFRICAN AMERICAN HISTORY IS SOMETHING WE ARE CONTINUING TO WORK TOWARDS, TO FIGURE OUT HOW DO WE -- WE'RE WORKING OUT GREAT IDEAS AND SOME PROJECTS, AND I CAN TALK ABOUT THAT LATER, BUT HOW DO WE TELL STORIES, BUT HOW DO WE LET PEOPLE TELL THEIR OWN STORIES AND THAT'S WHAT I'M ABOUT.

HOW CAN WE ALLOW AND FIND WAYS FOR THE AFRICAN AMERICAN PEOPLE WHO HAVE STORIES AND LEGACIES IN THE COMMUNITY, THE TRANS COMMUNITY, THE BISEXUAL COMMUNITY.

THERE'S ALL THE ALPHABET THAT CONTINUES TO EVOLVE.

SO THERE ARE LOTS OF VOICES, LOTS OF FOLKS WHO HAVE BEEN MARGINALIZED FOR CENTURIES AND NOW THAT THE WORLD IS SUCH A VIBRANT PLACE OF COMMUNICATION WITH SO MANY WAYS FOR PEOPLE TO GET OUT THERE AND TELL THEIR STORIES AND BE HEARD, AGAIN, WE'RE NOT A MONOLITH.

IT'S A STRUGGLE.

ONE OF THE REASONS PEOPLE SAY THERE ARE A LOT OF PRIDES IN ST. LOUIS BECAUSE IT'S HARD TO HAVE A SINGULAR PRIDE THAT ADDRESSES AND VOICES CONCERNS OF EVERYONE.

I THINK ALL THE PRIDE GROUPS IN ST. LOUIS WORK TOWARD THAT GOAL, BUT WHEN YOU HAVE PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, WHO ARE IN ST. CHARLES WHO DON'T WANT TO GO DOWNTOWN OR PEOPLE ON THE EAST SIDE WHO WANT TO STAY ON THE EAST SIDE FOR THEIR FESTIVAL, I THINK THERE'S ROOM FOR EVERYONE, BUT I THINK THERE NEEDS TO BE A GOOD ONGOING DISCUSSION ABOUT HOW CAN THE ENTIRE COMMUNITY UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER BETTER, BUT YET HAVE RESPECT AND ADMIRATION FOR EACH OTHER'S INDIVIDUALITY.

IT'S TOUGH.

>> JUST GOING OFF WHAT YOU SAID, RAY, I ACTUALLY KNOW -- I KNOW A GAY MAN WHO IS A TRUMP SUPPORTER, TO THIS DAY.

I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT DURING HIS ADMINISTRATION.

IT GOES ON NOW.

SO, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT A MONOLITHIC COMMUNITY.

STEVE, YOU MENTIONED THE POLICE.

SOME OF THE PRIDE PARADES THROUGHOUT THE UNITED STATES DO NOT WANT UNIFORMED POLICE OFFICERS THERE, AND WE'RE NOT HAVING ONE THIS YEAR, BUT AS FAR AS THE, YOU KNOW, THE PRIDE PARADE HERE, IS THAT SOMETHING YOU WOULD SUPPORT OR WHAT ARE YOUR FEELINGS ON THAT?

>> SURE.

AS A HISTORIAN, IT'S MY JOB TO DOCUMENT AND REPORT, NOT TO NECESSARILY HAVE OPINIONS.

I CAN TELL YOU WHAT'S HAPPENED.

WE'VE HAD ISSUES IN PAST PRIDES WHERE, ESPECIALLY THE TRANS COMMUNITY FELT UNCOMFORTABLE WITH THE POLICE THERE.

THERE WAS A BIG -- WE'LL CALL IT A SCANDAL ABOUT IT WHERE THE TRANS COMMUNITY ENDED UP HAVING THEIR OWN EVENT, THEIR OWN FIRST-EVER TRANS MARCH WHICH THEY FELT THEY WANTED TO HAVE THEIR OWN EVENT SO THEY COULD FEEL RESPECTED AND SAFE.

AND ST. LOUIS HAS A COMPLICATED HISTORY.

BACK, I BELIEVE IT WAS DATING BACK IN THE '50s, I HAVE RECORDS OF THE POLICE HAVING, YOU KNOW, USING BIBLE QUOTES IN THEIR TRAINING THAT REALLY WERE ANTI -- OR HOMOPHOBIC AND THAT SORT OF THING.

WE HAVE LOTS OF INSTANCES WHERE ST. LOUIS HAD A CODE WHERE YOU COULDN'T DRESS AS A MEMBER OF THE OPPOSITE SEX.

PEOPLE WERE ARRESTED FOR DECADES IN ST. LOUIS FOR MASS KERR RAIDING AND THAT WAS -- MASSER RAIDING AND THAT WAS A REASON FOR POLICE TO MAKE ARRESTS.

THERE'S BEEN POSITIVE MOVEMENTS, BUT THERE'S A LOT OF WORK TO DO.

>> STEPHEN, ARE YOU STUDYING THE STATE OF MISSOURI WITH REGARD TO THIS OR MORE IN ST. LOUIS?

>> WELL, OUR HISTORY PROJECT IS LOCAL, BUT I HAVE TWO SISTER ORGANIZATIONS.

WE HAVE A HISTORY PROJECT IN KANSAS CITY, GLAMA, AND WE HAVE A GAY AND LESBIAN HISTORY PROJECT IN SPRING FIELD AT THE MISSOURI STATE, I DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY CALL IT NOW.

MISSOURI STATE.

PEOPLE ARE SURPRISED THAT MISSOURI HAS THREE VERY INDEPENDENT, BUT VERY -- WE LIKE TO WORK TOGETHER AND WE'RE SUPPORTIVE OF EACH OTHER AND I'M ALSO A TRUSTEE OF THE STATE HISTORICAL SOCIETY OF MISSOURI AS FAR AS I'M THE FIRST OPENLY GAY PERSON ON THAT BOARD, SO THERE ARE EFFORTS TO LOOK AT THE STATE AS WELL AS REGIONAL ACTIVITIES.

>> THE REASON I ASK THAT, I DON'T KNOW HOW -- WITH RESPECT TO YOU'RE A HISTORIAN, SO I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THERE.

AS RECENTLY AS THE LATE 1970s, WITH TAXPAYER DOLLARS, OUR STATE ARGUED AGAINST ALLOWING WHAT WE CALLED AT THE TIME GAY RECOGNITION AT THE UNIVERSITY OF MISSOURI COLUMBIA AND IT MEANT NO MORE -- MAYBE YOU CAN ELUCIDATE, IT MEANT THAT NO MORE THAN SIMPLY ALLOWING GAYS, GAYS AND LESBIANS TO MEET ON CAMPUS TO DISCUSS ISSUES.

THERE WAS NO FUNDING, THERE WAS NO NOTHING.

IT WAS JUST -- AND THEIR ARGUMENT WAS THAT HOMOSEXUALITY WAS AN ILLNESS AND THAT THE PEOPLE WOULD SPREAD IT.

THEY ACTUALLY ARGUED THAT IN COURT, THAT IT COULD BE PROSTHE PROSTHELETYZED AND PEOPLE COULD GET IT.

ARE THERE A LOT OF STORIES THAT PEOPLE DON'T KNOW LIKE THAT?

>> OH, YEAH OUR HISTORY BOOKS ARE VERY INCOMPLETE.

YOU GO TO THE NEWSPAPER ARCHIVES AND WHEN YOU STUDY THIS HISTORY, YOU HAVE TO UNFORTUNATELY TYPE IN TERMS LIKE PANSY AND PERVERT AND SODOMY.

YOU HAVE TO TYPE IN ALL THOSE WORDS TO TRY TO GLEAN WHAT HISTORY MIGHT TELL US.

YES, THAT CASE, THERE WAS A -- YOU KNOW, SEVERAL CASES WHERE A PROFESSOR MIGHT BE GAY AND THERE WAS UPROARS OVER THAT.

THERE'S MORE THAN I COULD MENTION HERE, BUT IT'S GOING ON TODAY SOMEWHERE, SOMEHOW, THAT BEING -- THAT MESSAGE IS BEING PROPAGATED.

>> ALONG THOSE LINES, WE CAN GO -- THERE ARE PLACES IN MISSOURI, PLACES ALL OVER THE UNITED STATES, AND YOU'LL ASK ABOUT A GAY COMMUNITY AND PEOPLE IN THAT TOWN WILL SAY, WELL, WE DON'T HAVE ANY GAY PEOPLE HERE.

AND THAT'S TODAY.

NOW, WHETHER IT'S FEAR OR, YOU KNOW, THAT KEEPS THEM TO THEMSELVES, YOU KNOW, HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THAT IN THIS DAY AND A AGE?

YOU'RE NOT -- YOU DON'T JUST THROW YOUR HANDS UP, BUT HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THAT?

>> I HAVE ACTUALLY RESPONDED THIS WAY TO SEVERAL FRIENDS AND FAMILY.

THESE ARE THE SAME FOLKS IN RURAL AREAS WHO SAY ALL THE PEOPLE ON WELFARE LIVE IN THE CITY.

IT'S THE SAME ISSUE.

IT'S THE ISSUE OF URBAN-RURAL.

IT'S THE CITY THAT'S FULL OF SIN AND THE CITY THAT'S FULL OF THE QUEERS.

IT'S THE CITY THAT IS DRAINING OF THE TAX DOLLARS WITH, YOU KNOW, WELFARE AND ALL THAT.

AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE NUMBERS, IT'S VERY CLEAR THAT SOME OF THE VERY POOREST PARTS OF THE STATE ARE ALL VERY, VERY RURAL AND THERE'S LOTS OF FOLKS WHO ARE ON SUPPORT AND WHOSE SUPPORT -- YOU NAME THE SUPPORT, BUT MY POINT IS, THAT'S JUST AN EASY, BLANKET POLITICAL, YOU KNOW, AGAIN, CULTURE DIVIDE ISSUE THAT'S BEEN USED SINCE THE REAGAN YEARS VERY EFFECTIVELY AND NOW THAT WE'RE A LITTLE BIT MORE -- I THINK THE GAY, LGBTQIA COMMUNITY HAS MOBILIZED WELL AND LEARN A LOT WILL FROM THE STONEWALL IN THE '70s HOW TO COUNTER THESE ISSUES AND GET INTO THE POLITICAL REALM AND FIGHT IT, BUT DEFINITELY THAT RURAL -- THE LGBTQIA COMMUNITY HAS THE SAME ISSUE IN MISSOURI AS ALMOST ANY OTHER POLITICAL ISSUE WHEN IT COMES TO THE RED STATE -- THE RED PARTS OF THE STATE AND THE BLUE PARTS OF THE STATE, BUT THERE ARE LOTS OF LGBTQIA CITIZENRY THROUGHOUT THE STATE IN THE MOST RURAL OF AREAS AS WELL AS THE BIG CITIES.

>> I'M GOING TO FOLLOW UP ON THAT BECAUSE I WOULD IMAGINE THAT -- I GRADUATED HIGH SCHOOL IN 1978 AND I WOULD IMAGINE, WHILE IN HIGH SCHOOL, YOU KNOW, YEARS RIGHT AFTERWARDS, THE PERCENTAGE OF GAY INDIVIDUALS I KNEW IS PROBABLY THE EXACT SAME AS IT WOULD BE, YOU KNOW, NOW.

BUT AT THAT TIME, ESPECIALLY, YOU KNOW, YOUNG PEOPLE, THAT WAS THE -- YOU KNOW, THE GENERATIONS THAT WEREN'T GAY.

WELL, NOW THEY'VE COME OUT AND WE KNOW THAT THIS IS THERE, YOU KNOW, OVER THE YEARS.

HOW DO YOU SEE THAT?

IF WE LOOK THROUGH HISTORY, YOU JUST DON'T READ A LOT OR SEE A LOT ABOUT HIGH SCHOOL KIDS AND EARLY COLLEGE KIDS, YOU KNOW, DECLARING WHAT THEY -- THEIR LIFESTYLE.

SO THAT'S, I GUESS A HISTORIC MEASURE?

CAN YOU PUT IT LIKE THAT?

>> WELL, IN TWO WEEKS, I'M HAVING A HIGH SCHOOL REUNION WITH OUR LGBTQIA FOLKS.

I THINK -- SHOUTOUT TO WEB CLASS OF '83.

>> OKAY.

>> THERE'S EIGHT OF US GETTING TOGETHER.

THEY'RE COMING IN FROM ACROSS THE AMERICA.

SEVERAL WILL BE IN TOWN.

DID WE KNOW AT THE TIME?

WE DIDN'T KNOW AT THE TIME, YOU KNOW, WE WERE -- WHAT OUR SEXUALITY WAS OR TALKED ABOUT IT WITH EACH OTHER.

IT WASN'T -- BUT OVER THE LAST X YEARS, WE'VE FIGURED THAT OUT AND WE KNOW EACH OTHER NOW, BUT YOU'RE RIGHT.

I THINK THOSE NUMBERS ARE PROBABLY THE SAME.

IT'S JUST THAT I THINK -- I THINK THERE ARE STUDENTS WHO ARE MUCH MORE OPEN ABOUT IT THAN WOULD HAVE BEEN BACK IN OUR DAY, BUT I STILL THINK THERE'S A LOT CLOSETED STILL AND THEY'RE PROBABLY CLOSETED FOR THE SAME REASON.

BECAUSE THEY'RE AFRAID OF PARENTS, BEING DISCRIMINATED AGAINST OR MADE FUN OF OR BEAT UP OR WHATEVER.

>> STEVE, TALK ABOUT WHAT YOUR ROLE AS A HISTORIAN IS IN TRYING TO IMPACT EDUCATION WITH REGARD TO LGBTQ BECAUSE -- I MEAN, I TELL YOU, NOT RELATED TO THIS, BUT IN THE LAST MONTH, YOU KNOW, IT WAS, LIKE, ON A DIFFERENT TOPIC, I REALIZED I NEVER WAS TAUGHT ABOUT THE TULSA MASSACRE AT ALL, WHICH IS -- COME ON.

YOU THINK ABOUT THAT, AN ENTIRE -- ONE OF THE WORST CHAPTERS IN AMERICAN HISTORY DIDN'T COME UP AND I WOULD IMAGINE FOR LGBT PEOPLE, NOT MAKING AN ANALOGY TO IT, BUT JUST TALKING ABOUT THE IN THE WORLD OF LGBT PEOPLE, I'M GUESSING THERE ARE LARGE CHUNKS OF OUR HISTORY THAT HAVE JUST BEEN, I DON'T KNOW, STALINIZED, WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT.

IT'S JUST VAPORIZED.

I'M CURIOUS HOW YOU VIEW THAT AS A ROLE YOU MIGHT HAVE.

>> SURE.

MOST GAY HISTORY IS STONEWALL, HARVEY MILK, THOSE ARE THE TWO BIGGIES.

OTHERWISE, THERE MIGHT BE SOME FOLKS WHO KNOW ABOUT SOME OTHER ASPECTS, BUT IT'S SORT OF THAT HISTORY BETWEEN THE -- YOU HAVE WHAT HAPPENED IN SAN FRANCISCO, NEW YORK, AND THE REST OF THE FLYOVER AMERICA, THAT HISTORY IS LOST.

THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS I WORK ON WITH OTHER PARTS OF AMERICA THAT LIVE BETWEEN THERE.

SO THERE IS A LARGE EFFORT, JUST AS REFERRED ON THE ISSUE OF CRITICAL RACE THEORY, THE 1619 PROJECT, OH, NO, YOU AIN'T GONNA DO THAT.

SO IT WOULD BE THE SAME WAY IF YOU WANTED TO DO LGBTQIA CURRICULUM.

I KNOW ILLINOIS, I BELIEVE, HAS -- I THINK IS FOR THAT, BUT I CAN'T MISSOURI IS GOING TO BE A FAN OF THAT DISCUSSION.

SO YEAH, THAT'S GOING TO, I THINK, IMPORTANT AS A HISTORIAN TO FIND OTHER WAYS TO COMMUNICATE.

SO THAT'S WHY MY WORK WITH THE HISTORY PROJECT IS A PARTNERSHIP MODEL, WORKING WITH THE MISSOURI HISTORY MUSEUM, THE STATE HISTORICAL SOCIETY.

UMSL, WASH-U, YOU KNOW, THE BLACK HISTORY, THOSE FOLKS ARE PROFESSIONAL HISTORIANS.

THEY HAVE ARTIFACTS, THEY HAVE MUSEUMS, SO MY PARTNERSHIP MODEL, WE'RE ALL WORKING TOGETHER TO DO INNOVATIVE COMMUNITY PROJECTS.

THE HISTORY MUSEUM IS LAUNCHING A GATEWAY TO PRIDE INITIATIVE.

THEY HAVE A REALLY COOL ONLINE EXHIBIT YOU CAN LOOK AT.

WASH-U HAS A GREAT ONLINE MAP OF GAY HISTORY WHICH IS COOL TO LOOK AT.

THERE'S A LOT OF ACTIVITIES GOING ON THAT ARE HELPING EDUCATE THE PUBLIC, BUT ONE OF MY GOALS IS TO BE A FIDE PIPER AND CHAMPION -- PIED PIPER AND CHAMPIONSHIP OF ALL THE THINGS HAPPENING IN ST. LOUIS TO MAKE THE PUBLIC AWARE.

>> SORRY.

[ CELL PHONE RINGING ] >> GO AHEAD, RAY.

>> I WAS JUST KILLING TIME.

>> NO, I WAS GOING TO SAY, YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT THE HISTORY, IS IT -- OKAY.

WITH AFRICAN AMERICAN HISTORY, BLACK HISTORY, IT'S ALWAYS BEEN NOTED LIKE, HEY, AMERICA DOESN'T RECOGNIZE, YOU KNOW, BLACK PEOPLE THAT DID GREAT THINGS, 1800s, YOU KNOW, GOING WAY BACK.

IS THERE A TIMELINE LIKE THAT THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU NOW SHOW NOT JUST GAY PEOPLE, BUT THE WHOLE WORLD THAT THESE PEOPLE WERE GAY.

NEVER MIND THAT, THIS IS WHAT THEY ACCOMPLISHED.

DO YOU TRY TO DO THAT ALSO?

>> YEAH, SURE.

I THINK THERE ARE LOTS OF FOLKS NATIONALLY, BUT EVEN LOCALLY.

ONE EXAMPLE THAT COMES TO MIND, JUST BECAUSE IT'S BEING WORKED ON NOW IS HELEN STEPHENS, THE OLYMPIAN, WHO WAS A LESBIAN, AND OBVIOUSLY, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF FOLKS, YOU KNOW, DON'T REALLY CARE EITHER WAY, BUT THERE ARE PROBABLY FOLKS WHO ARE LIKE, WELL, LENS NOT TALK ABOUT THAT ASPECT OF HER LIFE.

LET'S JUST TALK ABOUT WINNING THE OLYMPICS.

THAT'S NOT MENTION SHE'S A LESBIAN.

NOW THERE'S LOTS OF -- THERE'S A DOCUMENTARY COMING OUT, THE BOOKS ARE WRITTEN, LOTS OF INFORMATION, PEOPLE WHO KNEW HELEN AND HER LIFE WHO ARE COMING FORWARD AND TELLING THAT STORY.

THAT'S JUST ONE EXAMPLE OF KIND OF THAT WHITE WASHING OF LET'S JUST KEEP THAT OUT OF THE NARRATIVE.

I THINK THERE'S GOING TO BE A LOT OF THAT MOVING FORWARD IN THE NEXT, YOU KNOW, FEW YEARS AS WE LEARN MORE ABOUT FOLKS AND THEIR LIVES, LANGSTON HUGHES FROM MISSOURI COMES TO MIND AND OTHERS.

SOME PEOPLE OBVIOUSLY IN THE LGBTQIA COMMUNITY, THAT ROLE IS HARD SOMETIMES TO KEEP UP.

IT'S HARD TO -- IT'S HARD FOR THE GAY COMMUNITY TO EVEN KEEP ALONG THAT HISTORY, LET ALONE COMMUNICATING IT TO A BROADER AUDIENCE.

BUT I THINK THERE'S A WHOLE LOT OF HISTORY OUT THERE TO COME AND I'M EXCITED ABOUT THE POTENTIAL OF IT.

>> THERE ARE FIVE, I BELIEVE -- I'M ALWAYS KIND OF AMUSED WITH THIS EXPRESSION -- OPENLY GAY MEMBERS OF THE MISSOURI LEGISLATURE NOW, AND I DON'T KNOW AGAIN AS A HISTORIAN IF YOU -- WE DON'T KEEP TRACK OF HOW MANY ACTUALLY LGBT PEOPLE THERE ARE, JUST OPENLY, IT'S LIKE WHATEVER.

BUT THE POINT IS, DO YOU KEEP -- ARE THERE IN YOUR WORK, WILL WE BE LEARNING ABOUT ST. LOUISANS WHO WERE MEMBERS OF THE LGBT COMMUNITY WHEN THERE WAS NO ACTUAL OPEN COMMUNITY AT SOME POINT?

DO YOU THINK -- ARE THERE A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT WILL LEARN SOMETIMES -- NOT THAT IT REALLY SHOULD MATTER, THAT WE DIDN'T KNOW WERE LGBT WITHOUT NECESSARILY OUTING PEOPLE THAT DON'T WISH TO HAVE IT DISCUSSED REQUESTS.

>> THAT'S A TOUGH ONE.

I CALL IT LIFRL OUTING BECAUSE -- HISTORICAL OUTING BECAUSE THERE ARE SEVERAL FAMOUS ST. LOUISANS WHO ARE RUMORED TO BE GAY OR LESBIAN AND, OF COURSE, WE DON'T HAVE ANY WAY TO SAY ONE WAY OR THE OTHER, SO THERE'S LOTS OF INNUENDO AND JOKES ABOUT IT.

I WOULD HOPE WITH THE ADVENT OF PEOPLE WANTING TO -- I HAVE A LOT OF FRIENDS WHO ARE OLDER, AND THEY SAID THEY MIGHT WANT TO DO AN ORAL HISTORY, BUT THEY DON'T WANT TO RELEASE IT UNTIL THEY'RE DEAD OR AFTER THAT HE PASS.

YOU UNDERSTAND THAT AND RESPECT PEOPLE'S PRIVACY.

IT'S A MIXED BAG.

GOING BACK AND WITHOUT SOME HARD EVIDENCE OF A JOURNAL OR PHOTOS WHICH THEY SAID VERY EXPLICITLY, I THINK THAT GRAY AREA IS ALWAYS GOING TO BE PROBLEMATIC BECAUSE UNLESS YOU CAN USE SOME SORT OF MEASURE OF RESPECTABLE RESEARCH, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO BE FIRM ABOUT THAT.

>> I GUESS I'M CURIOUS.

IF YOU WANT TO WALK A LINE THAT I THINK WOULD BE DIFFICULT, IRRESPECTING -- AGAIN, SOMEBODY'S SEXUAL ORIENTATION IS NOBODY'S BUSINESS UNLESS THEY WANT IT TO BE, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, IF WE DON'T KNOW, I THINK IT'S HELPFUL FOR PEOPLE TO HAVE SOME CONTEXT, THAT MANY PEOPLE WHOSE SEXUALITY WAS LGBTQ, WHATEVER, I GUESS IT'S A BALANCING ACT.

>> YEAH, IT'S TRICKY.

LIKE I SAID, I'M HOPING THAT BECAUSE THE MORE EDUCATION WE DO, THAT FOLKS WILL BE WILLING TO COME FORWARD AND SAY, YEAH, I WOULD LIKE MY STORY TOLD AND LET'S TELL IT.

SO WE'RE JUST HOPING THAT THE MORE WE CAN REACH PEOPLE AND COMMUNICATE THE NEED FOR IT, THEN THE MORE WE CAN GET DONE.

>> STEVE, IS OUR STATE'S TOWARDS THE GAY -- STATE'S ATTITUDE TOWARDS THE GAY COMMUNITY, IT DOES COST US IN TERMS OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND PLACING THEY'RE LOOKING TO EXPAND AND THEY SAY JUST -- WE'RE NOT DOING THAT?

>> YEAH, THE STATE OVERALL FOR SURE.

I'M SURE THERE'S SOME POLLS OR NUMBERS I CAN'T QUOTE THAT SHOW MISSOURI IS NOT AT THE TOP OF THAT, BUT PLACES LIKE ST. LOUIS, ST. LOUIS MIGHT BE HIGHER IN THOSE RANKINGS.

YOU LOOK AT THE BRAIN DRAIN, THE TALENT DRAIN OF FOLKS WHO SAID I AIN'T GONNA LIVE HERE, SO WE HAVE FAMOUS ACTORS AND WE HAVE A FAMOUS ACTOR, MICHAEL KERNS, FROM THE ST. LOUIS AREA AND MOVED TO L.A. AT A YOUNG AGE AND IS AN ACTOR.

THEY'RE COUNTLESS NUMBERS OF PEOPLE WHO FLED AND ARE NEVER COMING BACK.

THERE'S SMALL EXAMPLES I HERE OF PEOPLE WHO COME BACK, BUT I THINK IT DOES DAMAGE THE STATE ECONOMICALLY.

KANSAS CITY AND COLUMBIA SEEM TO HAVE FAVORABLE ENVIRONMENTS, BUT THE STATE OVERALL.

>> YOU WANT TO TAKE THE LAST ONE?

>> WE OUT OF TIME?

>> WE HAVE A MINUTE OR TWO.

>> SO WHAT DO YOU SEE FUTURE HISTORIANS, 50 YEARS, 100 YEARS, LOOKING AT IN THEIR WORK, STANDING ON YOUR SHOULDERS, STEPHEN BRAWLEY, WHAT DO YOU PREDICT THEY'LL BE TALKING ABOUT ABOUT OUR TIME?

>> I THINK, YOU KNOW, OUR TOWN, OUR TIME, I THINK WE'RE SORT NEVER THAT MIXED BAG OF TRANSITION OF SOME -- SORT OF IN THAT MIXED BAG OF TRANSITION, OF SOME VICTORIES AND STRUGGLES.

I THINK IT'S ONE OF THOSE MOMENTS OF PERSISTING AND CONTINUING, FIGHTING AGAINST SOME OF THE DISCRIMINATORY LAWS AT THE STATE LEVEL AND A LOT OF ISSUES THAT ARE BEING WAGED HERE IN THE TRANS COMMUNITY.

I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE -- I THINK WE ARE -- I SEE US A FEW DECADES AWAY FROM BEING COMFORTABLE IF WE HAVE A SUCCESSFUL EFFORT IN THE NEXT COUPLE DECADES, OF PURSUING -- HAVING A BETTER LIFE FOR THE LGBTQIA COMMUNITY.

I THINK THERE'S STILL LOTS OF LAWS TO FIX, LOTS OF MINDS S TS TO CHANGE, LOTS OF HEARTS TO CHANGE.

I WISH IT WAS SOONER.

MAYBE I'LL BE WRONG, BUT I THINK WE'RE STILL IN THE MIDDLE OF A FIGHT.

>> I'M DONE.

THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH, STEPHEN, AND TO EVERYBODY.

>> Announcer: DONNYBROOK IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE SUPPORT OF THE BETSY AND THOMAS PATTERSON FOUNDATION AND THE MEMBERS OF NINE PBS.