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Thank you very much for joining us for another edition of Donnybrook.

Boy, we have too many topics, too little time.

So let's meet the panelists and then jump into the topic, starting with the media veteran herself, Wendy Weise.

Bill McClellan, from your St.

Louis Post-Dispatch.

From the 314 podcast, St.

Louis Magazine and the daily newsletter, Sara Fenske.

And from the St.

Louis American, we welcome Alvin Reid.

And you know, we have a rotating art exhibit here on the Nine PBS set.

And this week, the art comes from Bill Gangle, who passed away in 2004.

This beautiful piece, looking at the American flag, was submitted by his son for our show.

Thank you, Bill.

And also, a little knowledge about Mr.

Gangle.

He was a St.

Louis native, an artist, and a World War II veteran.

And so we thank the Gangle family for sharing that.

Wendy, I wanna ask you about housing in the news.

In St.

Charles County, they're thinking about a six-month moratorium on new apartment permits.

This is on multifamily housing.

They're gonna try and sit back and figure out what the strategy is before they approve any new ones.

And then, in Ladue and Rock Hill, at the corner of Litzinger and McKnight, there's a development proposed there that would have 235 luxury apartments, I think 31 town villas, and 11 big homes.

This is luxury, these are gonna be expensive.

But the neighbors have showed up, at City Hall, and they said, look, we have Deer Creek, which floods, we have a lot of traffic on McKnight, especially when Tillis Park has its holiday display.

We don't think we need this huge development.

It's the old McCarthy site.

What do you think?

Well, and the quarry.

And the quarry.

You've got the quarry.

And it's really, I think of that little bit of Ladue as being on the far, far, farthest outskirts of Ladue.

But I was really sort of taken by the change of attitude of the Zoning and Planning Commissioner of Ladue, her name is Robbie Toft, and she said that she was vehemently opposed to this project when it crossed her desk six months ago.

And she said, since then, she said, sort of the reality of the floodplain, that nobody else is gonna do anything to try to correct this flooding situation, but this development would.

The fact that the quarry has all sorts of problems in and of itself, including buildup of methane gas when the city of Ladue puts all of its leaves and yard waste in that particular area that makes it apparently a very, an awful, noxious smell.

And she also said something that really grabbed me.

She said, if we don't do something like this, she said it could end up being an Amazon distribution center.

And that is something I guarantee you that the people of Ladue do not want.

Obviously the school impact, they're speculating that it's gonna be what, 16 to 22 new students.

But I don't live in Ladue, but I could see where this would be sort of appealing, and it is on the outskirts of Ladue.

Well, when you take from, I guess, Manchester Road and go to 40 that route and go down McKnight.

Now, I'd go that way sometimes.

And when I pass that whatever it is, curb, I always think like, why doesn't someone do something with this?

I thought it was still owned by the construction firm and they were just sitting on it.

And one day, they might put a smelter there or something.

I just didn't know.

But when this came up, I was like, you windy.

I said like, why not?

I would also say this.

I don't like when, if we don't do this, it might be something worse than this.

That's not a reason or a rationale in my mind to do something.

It's either a good idea or it's not.

I think the good people of Ladue are not worried about people getting flooded out.

They're worried about the kind of the more people, what people, what kind of people, but it's high end.

Here's the problem.

I mean, you look at the big picture.

Ness Sandoval, who is the demographer from St.

Louis University has taken a look at the numbers.

And St.

Louis is ranked number 23 or 24 in the most populous regions in the nation, metro area.

But it ranks number 58 in new housing permits in the past five or so years.

We're just not building new housing.

And as a result, the housing stock is very expensive.

So overall, whether it's in St.

Charles or if it's in Rock Hill or Ladue, people have to start thinking about the future of this region.

Do you want just expensive housing because of the low supply?

Well, you want more students too.

I mean, all the schools are complaining that in 10 years, you're gonna have fewer kids and there's school buildings.

Look what's happening in the city of St.

Louis with these school buildings.

So I would think that Ladue would be thrilled.

And I live in the DeMun neighborhood, which is the greatest neighborhood in the city, I think.

But it's mostly apartments.

Yeah, I think DeMun is the greatest neighborhood.

I wish I couldn't live there.

But I think you've got this- But you have to apply.

Yeah, yeah.

You have to get by the committee.

I don't think they want my type there.

But I think there's this broad anti-apartment sentiment across the region.

And you see this now, like everybody's looking at, can we do a moratorium?

Can we somehow block this?

And I think it's so short-sighted.

We sent our reporter out to Dardene Prairie when they were considering their moratorium.

And he talked to some people there and they said, we want people who are gonna put down more permanent roots in this community.

We don't want people who are just passing through.

Let me tell you, as somebody who used to rent, you rent in a neighborhood and then you build your equity so you can buy.

It makes you understand whether or not it's a good place to live.

And to be so unwelcoming, I think, to people who are just getting started or maybe can't get to the point that they're ready to get a mortgage yet, seems like this is not where we wanna be as a region.

I think that was the point that Steve Ellman was trying to make in the article.

And some of the other candidates out in St.

Charles County, that we don't want to have that rep as being the ones who turn away the younger families because they are ultimately going to be homeowners.

Elvin, I wanna ask you about what's going on in Kansas City.

The Kansas City Star reports that, believe it or not, FIFA, the organizing group that's putting together the World Cup this month, rented, or booked rather, 5,000 room nights during the World Cup, during the six major nights of the World Cup in Kansas City.

5,000 hotel nights, but they've just recently canceled 75% of them.

And now the hotel operators are telling the Kansas City Star, actually, we have more bookings on a typical summer weekend in Kansas City than we do this year during the World Cup.

Was this a flop?

Absolutely not.

Right now, as we speak, the World Cup Festival has already started in Kansas City.

There's thousands of people on the streets.

It's gonna be going on for the next, they have events on three separate weekends.

Hundreds of thousands of people are gonna descend upon Kansas City.

Now that they know that some hotel rooms are open, like the dates after this weekend, which will be the 27th, by the way, I'm going to actually miss a show on the 25th, or no, July the 2nd, because I'm gonna be over in the Kansas City area.

It's just a good thing.

I wish St.

Louis had it.

I wish we had this problem.

I could, simple as that.

But the hotel owners are saying that the rooms aren't booked.

They will be booked.

Look, the hotel owners are just crying wolf.

What are they gonna do?

Trust me, this will work out big time.

No, FIFA canceled, the hotel owners.

FIFA is the most corrupt sporting organization in the history of the world.

I don't believe anything they say.

Worse than the IOC?

Yes.

I think Ellen's right.

It's gonna be a great thing.

But I'm so petty, as you know, Kansas City's always doing everything right.

We're always doing everything wrong.

And it would be shot and fruit.

Is that the German?

Shot and fruit, yeah.

To see this not go so well for Kansas City.

Well, I still think, and no, I don't believe there's a cabal of globalists, and I don't wear an aluminum foil hat to bed at night, and all that other stuff.

But somebody is trying awfully hard in this country to make soccer happen.

I mean, they are trying awfully hard.

But to not, but to not.

Is it not?

Apparently.

But everything's up to date in Kansas City, and they've already canceled 75% of the rooms.

Well, that was, FIFA did that.

But FIFA did that.

It could be.

I mean, the people you see at the festival might be Kansas City residents who are there anyway.

But how about this?

Is it possible that with the charismatic president that we have right now, a lot of people decided not to visit the summer, the United States in the summer of 2020?

Well, I think that is 100% a factor, and I think you're seeing fewer people in the US than previous World Cups.

But I will say, I think this is still a good shot in the arm for the people who haven't.

It was even a great shot in the arm for St.

Louis.

You know, we had this friendly match between Bosnia and Panama, and it brought so much energy and so much excitement to the city last weekend.

It was just amazing.

As much as I don't really like what is happening in Kansas City, I'm still jealous of it, because what happened last weekend was great.

Well, also what happened last weekend was at the Sky Zone in Shrewsbury, about 350 kids showed up on six, seven days.

Is that what it's called?

That's what it's called.

You did your little... So the last time we had something like this, it was three, one, four day.

Now it's six, seven day.

But the kids, I guess they started fighting.

They couldn't get into the Sky Zone, which I don't entirely understand what that is.

So they ended up going to Aldi's and Walmart and threatening the other customers and causing trouble.

It was another team takeover.

And one of these happened in Kansas City this past weekend.

Where was that?

Lee's Summit.

In Lee's Summit.

And the kids invaded the downtown days.

Like Edward Till.

And they decided to cancel the downtown days forever because of last weekend's mayhem.

Over three years, just to be... It's happened in the last two years before this one, too.

Okay, so what the heck is going on, Sarah?

Yeah, I mean, it's very unfortunate and you are seeing it happen everywhere.

So we can't say, oh, this is just a St.

Louis thing.

I think what happened in this particular case is Sky Zone has a very strict policy that if you're under a certain age of like, I think it's 25, you have to be accompanied by an adult, specifically because they're trying to avoid this stuff.

You have people like my seven-year-old going in there having birthday parties and they want the kids to be able to jump without older teens making it an uncomfortable atmosphere.

It's a great policy.

But so what happens, they advertise the 6 -7 party and you get all these kids showing up without an adult.

They wouldn't let them in.

And so it was great on the inside.

It's what happened on the sidewalks that was the problem.

I have to say, I think this all goes back to phones.

You know, back in the day when we wanted to get in trouble, you had to like, you know, get the message from somebody who might whisper it to you or you'd like see a flyer or like something would be stapled up on a telephone pole.

Or you'd write a note to each other in school.

Yeah, so yeah, exactly.

So here they put up that they're having a 6-7 party.

The thing just goes totally viral.

Everybody shows up, isn't reading the fine print.

You didn't have to worry about masses of people looking for trouble, finding each other quite that easily back in the day.

I think that's the factor that shifted.

But the story that like drained, like I could feel the blood just draining out of my body.

The 12-year-old who Ubered in from Florissant with her knife.

Butcher knife.

With her butcher knife because she thought that there might be trouble.

A 12-year-old Ubers, not mom and dad with a butcher knife.

That is something that people need to- I heard Juan Cox, the new St.

Louis County Police Chief on KMOX today.

And he said that teen takeovers are the number one issue facing his force as well as regional police departments.

Can you believe that?

Everywhere, Chicago too.

I mean, I don't know what to do.

I mean, there's consequences.

I do, I do, okay.

Teenagers.

We grew up, you know, look, there was trouble when you got in trouble.

But also, I don't want the police to be, you know, unlawful, unruly.

But there is a, hey, if you want some, we will give you some.

And why are we babying these?

All right, you gonna show up with a butcher knife if you're 12 years old?

Well then, how about 12 hours in jail for the 12 years old?

For a 12-year-old?

Yes, yes.

Everybody else.

How about- Maybe her parents, her mother.

I'll tell you a quick story.

I was getting my hair cut at Greycliffs, Richmond Heights, as it turns out.

That's a lot of information.

Yeah, really?

Really, I mean.

It explains a lot.

The hairstylist had just moved here from Los Angeles.

She lives in Baden.

And I was telling her some of the topics of this show.

It was a couple of weeks ago.

And I said, and they can't open the pools in St.

Louis because the police won't patrol and they need a security force.

And she's cutting my hair and she says, now tell me, why do you need armed security at a swimming pool?

And that's exactly a good question.

When did we start needing armed security at a swimming pool?

Were you asleep the last couple of years when Plaza Frontenac had these gangs coming in and smashing and grabbing?

Or the Chesterfield Valley had gangs coming in - Now you're concerned.

Smashing and grabbing.

Now I'm concerned.

Smashing and grabbing.

And the police were, the owners of the companies, excuse me, that were victimized by this lawlessness were told to stand down.

Just let them do it.

Let them take everything that they need.

That's crazy.

There were protesters downtown St.

Louis and the chief of police had them escorted on to 64 40 so they wouldn't get hurt.

Yeah, I hear that.

At the same time, like I said, hey, look, if you're going to be, if it's going to be about that, then all right, all bets are off.

What, a taser doesn't know who's 16 years old?

I'm sorry.

But you remember from this story, the police felt threatened by the mobs of kids.

And like the police felt threatened by a mob of teenagers.

Oh, okay, I wouldn't be threatened tomorrow.

I mean, that just, I'm not saying beat the kids or anything like that.

But no, if you think you are going to physically intimidate the police, I don't care how old you are, you're asking for it.

All right, okay.

I'm glad you clarified that you're not in favor of the police beating kids because honestly, that is what a lot of this sounds like.

That's what I'm taking from what you're saying.

I'm just saying like, hey, you're going to jail and you're going right now.

And if you can't get in, all right, let's move on to the next topic.

Folks can send their letters to 36- All the streets, St.

Louis.

I'm sorry.

Philip Collin.

St.

Louis has a very unusual object in the town square that's bordered by Chestnut and Market and 10th and 11th.

It's called Twain.

It's a sculpture by the late artist, Richard Serra.

It was installed in 1982.

It was reported by your paper this week that this hardly beloved sculpture is going to be refurbished by Emily Pulitzer, who at one point was part of the family that owned the St.

Louis Post-Dispatch.

There are a lot of people who probably think there's a better use for that piece of real estate in downtown St.

Louis.

What do you think?

I can think of a lot of better uses for it.

But I remember when Mrs.

Pulitzer first came up with this, the tragedy was the newspaper made our art critic review it and knowing that this is Mrs.

Pulitzer's thing, you know, the art critic said, well, I think a lot of people are going to learn to like it.

You know, a lot of art connoisseurs like Mrs.

Pulitzer like the fact that the common people don't like what they like.

You know, like somebody like me, I like statues of guys on horses.

And like, I think that statue of Andrew Jackson in New Orleans pointing at the room that his mistress lived in is quintessential art.

You know, there's a story behind it and everything.

But Mrs.

Pulitzer is the sort of person who likes the fact that most people don't get this, that it's a sophisticated thing.

And she was, but she was quoted in the story as saying that St.

Louis used to essentially do, we used to be edgy, you know, and I think she's right in that regard.

Well, it depends on what you consider edgy.

Yeah, really.

I've always thought if I could do it, it's not art.

Yeah.

I can look at the Picasso statue in Chicago, I don't get it, but I couldn't do it.

Right.

I look at the Sarah Sculpture, I think I could do that.

I didn't know until this, I did not know until this latest bit of news that it was ever called the Twain.

I didn't either.

I always thought it was just, I always called it the Sera Sculpture.

And I remember in 1986, when KMOX great Bruce Bradley planted pink flamingos outside of the Sera Sculpture to try to make, and his listeners helped him trying to make it more attractive to the downtown, to the downtown community.

I gotta defend the sculpture just a little bit and I gotta defend Mrs.

Pulitzer here.

I feel like she could have easily turned her back on this sculpture.

It'd be very easy to forget that she had defended this thing.

And I love that she's putting her money where her mouth is.

She sort of talked about this like this is her legacy.

Like she said, you know, I'm 92.

She said I'm almost 92.

Almost 92, yeah.

And so I wanna get this right.

And I appreciate that, that she's trying to get this right.

And art doesn't have to be something you look at and say, it's pretty, it can be something that makes you think.

But I don't think it really does, Sarah.

To think, is this art?

I mean, I guess that counts.

Yeah, we're talking about art here.

I always thought it was a barrier around a construction site.

Like dominoes.

In New York City, there was a Richard Serra installment and it was removed in the middle of the night by city officials.

It was outside the Metropolitan Correction Center.

And they said, this is ridiculous.

It wasn't good enough for the president?

Yeah, well, I don't know who did it.

Well, he's at the Correction Center.

Let me ask you about Pitbulls.

It was a tragic, horrible story in Tower Grove Park, Alvin, where the dog owned by Steve Ewing, who owns Steve's Hot Dogs, was killed by two Pitbulls.

So this week in the St.

Louis Post -Dispatch, St.

Louis resident wrote an op-ed piece saying that, hey, look, in Canada and the United States last year, there were 84 people killed by dogs.

64 of those dogs were Pitbulls.

And he says, hey, they're wonderful, but the owners just don't know how to take care of them.

And for that reason, they should be banned.

What do you think?

Okay, you know, there was this guy named Saul and he had it out for a group of people and he got like struck by lightning and changed his name and his outlook just changed.

I was on the column, this writer's side, up until two and a half years ago.

And we rescued a Pitbull, a part Pitbull.

Bella is part Pit.

She is the sweetest dog ever.

I saw a light.

I cannot now sit here and say, you could outlaw this dog.

You can outlaw bad dog ownership and maybe look into where they are coming from or something like that.

But I can no longer say that you could just outlaw having a breed of dog.

Denmark doesn't, Denmark bans them.

I'm just saying, I don't live in Denmark.

Something's rotten there, by the way.

But in the metropolitan areas, I thought that was the editorial writer's biggest focus was that in dense metropolitan areas, densely populated metropolitan areas, they should not, you cannot monopolize the safety or potentially monopolize the safety and the comfort level of all of your neighbors if you live on a block.

There's a lot of people who, after their Pitbull attacks, somebody says, he was the sweetest dog.

Well, okay, all right, that being said, all right, now, so what do you do?

Do all of the dogs have to take a blood test to see like, well, you're only part Pitbull.

And right, do you euthanize every Pitbull right now that's at the shelter?

Who gets to decide, crazy Pitbull, nice Pitbull?

Who decides these things?

Shelters are full of Pitbulls.

It's the most commonly deposited dog at a shelter.

And I get it.

And I know there's problems, but I just cannot condemn any breed of dog.

I love a dog lover.

Right, and what about that other 20 dogs?

If, say, if 64 out of 84 were Pits, what were the other 20?

I mean, what do you do with them?

Because German Shepherds bite little people.

There's an issue there, too, at times.

I was just talking to a friend who was just over in England and he said there, they just, it's totally cool to have your dog off leash because they ban Pitbulls there.

So it's like, there's kind of this price that we pay for allowing what we allow that now everybody has to have leashes.

I feel like it's such a hard issue, but every municipality that has tried to do it, they open that same can of worms that you're talking about.

I don't know that it's as simple as the essay made it sound.

If Bella comes in your room one night with a knife and fork, we tried to warn you.

Well, you know, if I go down, you're going to say, like, God, I'll haunt Bill for the rest of his life.

Bella was a sweet dog until she was.

I'm going to call a little, what do you call it?

An audible line of scrimmage.

I'm going to throw in a topic here that I wasn't going to bring in, but I was wondering if you, Sarah, you had a story this week where those curb cuts, bump outs in parts of St.

Louis are wreaking havoc on the tires of motorists.

And a lot of people in South St.

Louis said, we're hitting a bump out and we're smashing our tires.

Have you, like Alvin, had a conversion on the road to Damascus?

Are you now against those bump outs?

Let me tell you, you could have asked my husband on this.

Do I ever change my mind on anything?

Never.

I actually have not had a conversion.

That's good for him.

Yeah, he knows where I stand, you know, and it's against whatever he's for.

No.

No, I think, you know, we reported on the fact that these bump outs, the angle is too sharp and cars were really having some trouble here to the point that the city said, hey, you need to call our contractor.

Our contractor is going to pay to fix your tires if you're hitting these things.

They have now shaved down the bump outs.

So I think we had some ill design bump outs.

I'm not against bump outs.

I can see that they are now slowing traffic.

These same ones that are causing problems for all my neighbor's cars are actually making people finally slow down because visually it's like you realize, okay, I can't just go a hundred miles an hour on this overly wide St.

Louis street.

Well, I hate bump outs.

I know you do, Bill.

I mean, I have a friend who hit one on a bicycle when they first came into Forest Park.

I was driving along and almost hit a bump out.

I thought, who designed this thing to make people hit them?

And then he said, well, actually, that's the idea that you have to slow down.

I thought, there's gotta be better ways than putting, you know, booby traps on the streets.

Called police officers.

And what you love.

We don't have those.

What you love more than anything is the new way of looking at it.

They're traffic calming devices.

And unfortunately they're giving everybody who talks about them, including the mild mannered Bill McClellan thrombos.

I mean, like, so this is, that to me is weird enough that it's supposed to calm traffic calming and it makes everybody crazy.

What is the alternative?

Charlie says the alternative is police officers.

You cannot get a police officer to come out after you've had a car crash in the city.

They're not gonna be out there pulling over speeders.

It is just, it's a fact that it's not gonna happen.

So what do you, what do we do?

Well, if they want those 7% raises to continue, they better start doing their jobs.

Well, I wouldn't argue with that.

The police are busy beating kids that are trying to have a good time.

All right, no, I got no problem with the bump outs.

I've got no problem with those, like the little barriers in the road because we're driving crazy in St.

Louis.

You gotta slow down.

I used to hate the roundabouts.

I've come to love the roundabouts.

I like roundabouts.

See, there you go.

So anything that calms traffic, to me, is a pretty good idea.

Just drive around the little roundabout.

I think we'll cover the little bump out.

What calms traffic is when a uniformed representative of the St.

Louis Metropolitan Police Department pulls you over, issues you tickets.

That calms you quickly.

It costs 75 to 150 bucks, and that's good for the coffers of the city, and it also calms traffic.

Yeah, it calms everybody.

Speaking for old people who drive slowly on the right-hand side, and all of a sudden, there's a big bump out there.

Yeah?

Yeah.

I mean, so we're supposed to drive.

And if it was a person, you'd still just go right on ahead.

They're not that obtrusive.

I just don't think they are.

If they think they're so wonderful, why are they taking them out of downtown St.

Louis?

Because people are whining.

Whining back in St.

Louis.

Because of whining.

Well, yeah, because they don't wanna be stuck in traffic.

After a concert or a ball game.

Oh, that's 12 votes I might lose.

Oh, those 12 votes.

Let's just imperil the entire community so I can stay in Alderman.

That, where have you been?

That's exactly how it goes.

Sarah, you're the expert on this.

In fact, I think the expert is out of Cleveland.

Is she not?

You have about 10 seconds to go.

What's the name of her book that we should all be reading?

Oh, shoot.

You gotta put me on the spot.

I'm sorry about that.

It's Angie Schmidt, but her book is amazing, and it explains that this is the way to go.

It's gonna convince all of you if you read it.

Please don't run me over.

Put her on the 314 podcast.

I should do that.

Why not?

I'll give you more programming suggestions, but first, let's go to the old mailbag and see what the viewers had to say about last week's show.

There is absolutely nothing positive about a school board member or municipal official sharing a partisan viewpoint.

She has a duty to serve all students, teachers, staff members, parents, and taxpayers in her district.

Why would you do or say anything to alienate yourself from any of the people you took an oath to serve?

We do not have Republican potholes and Democratic potholes.

That from Mike Wilcox, mayor of city of Glendale, whose students do go, or the students at Glendale, you're in Kirkwood School.

If you live in Glendale, you go to Kirkwood Schools.

That was last week's topic.

Hey, you can write us, CARE of 9PBS.

Don't forget that zip code 63108 on email.

It's donnybrook at 9PBS.org.

Hashtag DonnybrookSTL on social media.

Call the nine line, 314-512-9094, and listen to us on your favorite podcast.

Hey, we also have the Donnybrook Last Call YouTube channel.

It's our own channel.

If you scan that QR code and then you press the bell, we'll notify you whenever there's a new episode.

And we do have a new episode.

We're gonna take a look at the Euclid School, which is closing.

In fact, it's gonna be demolished by the St.

Louis Public Schools, even though a local developer offered to buy it and rehab it.

What gives?

We'll talk about that on Last Call.

See you next week.

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