>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON:" THE BIG TAKEAWAYS FROM DAY 2 OF THE JANUARY 6 HEARING.

AHEAD, I'LL BE JOINED BY MICHAEL CURRY OF THE N.A.A.C.P., AND FORMER NEW HAMPSHIRE G.O.P.

CHAIR JENNIFER HORN, WITH THEIR ANALYSIS.

BUT IF YOU MISSED TODAY'S TWO-PLUS HOURS OF EVIDENCE AND TESTIMONY, HERE'S A SEVEN-MINUTE RECAP OF THE MAJOR MOMENTS, AS THE COMMITTEE SET OUT TO SHOW THAT THE PEOPLE CLOSEST TO DONALD TRUMP TOLD HIM OVER AND OVER AGAIN THAT HE'D LOST THE 2020 ELECTION, AND HIS VOTER FRAUD CLAIMS WERE NOTHING MORE THAN CONSPIRACY THEORIES, BUT THE PRESIDENT KEPT PEDDLING THEM NONETHELESS.

>> THIS IS A FRAUD ON THE AMERICAN PUBLIC.

THIS IS AN EMBARRASSMENT TO OUR COUNTRY.

WE WERE GETTING READY TO WIN THIS ELECTION-- FRANKLY, WE DID WIN THIS ELECTION.

[LOUD CHEERS] >> THERE WERE INSTANCES IN WHICH TRUMP WOULD SAY, "PEOPLE ARE TELLING ME THIS, I HEARD THIS, SAW THIS ON TELEVISION," THIS IMPROPRIETY IN ATLANTA OR PENNSYLVANIA OR SOMETHING, AND WE WERE IN A POSITION TO SAY, OUR PEOPLE HAVE ALREADY LOOKED AT THAT AND WE KNOW YOU'RE GETTING BAD INFORMATION.

>> HOW THE F.B.I.

AND DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE-- I DON'T KNOW, MAYBE THEY'RE INVOLVED-- BUT HOW PEOPLE ARE ALLOWED TO GET AWAY WITH THIS STUFF IS UNBELIEVABLE.

>> I TRIED TO, AGAIN, PUT THIS IN PERSPECTIVE, AND TO PUT IT IN VERY CLEAR TERMS FOR THE PRESIDENT.

AND I SAID SOMETHING TO THE EFFECT OF, "SIR, WE'VE DONE DOZENS OF INVESTIGATIONS, HUNDREDS OF INTERVIEWS.

THE MAJOR ALLEGATIONS ARE NOT SUPPORTED BY THE EVIDENCE THAT'S DEVELOPED."

>> I WAS SOMEWHAT DEMORALIZED, BECAUSE I THOUGHT, BOY, IF HE REALLY BELIEVES THIS STUFF, HE'S LOST CONTACT WITH-- HE'S BECOME DETACHED FROM REALITY.

>> Braude: TODAY, THE COMMITTEE FOCUSED ON PICKING APART THE "BIG LIE," CLAIM BY CLAIM, STARTING WITH THE ONE ABOUT THE ATLANTA ELECTION WORKERS COUNTING THOUSANDS OF ILLEGAL BALLOTS BROUGHT IN VIA SUITCASES.

>> WE FOUND THAT THE "SUITCASE FULL OF BALLOTS"-- THE ALLEGED BLACK SUITCASE THAT WAS BEING SEEN PULLED FROM UNDER THE TABLE-- WAS ACTUALLY AN OFFICIAL LOCK BOX WHERE BALLOTS WERE KEPT SAFE.

UNFORTUNATELY, DURING A SENATE HEARING, MR. GIULIANI ONLY PLAYED A CLIP THAT SHOWED THEM PULLING OUT THE OFFICIAL BALLOT BOX FROM UNDER THE TABLE, AND REFERRING TO IT AS A "SMOKING GUN" OF VOTER FRAUD IN FULTON COUNTY, WHEN IN ACTUALITY, IN REVIEW OF THE ENTIRE VIDEO, IT SHOWED THAT IT WAS ACTUALLY AN OFFICIAL BALLOT BOX THAT WAS KEPT UNDERNEATH THE TABLES.

NOTHING IRREGULAR HAPPENED IN THE COUNTY, AND THE-- THE ALLEGATIONS MADE BY MR. GIULIANI WERE FALSE.

>> Braude: THEN, THERE WAS THE WHOLE THING ABOUT A TRUCK DRIVER BRINGING IN HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF FRAUDULENT MAIL-IN BALLOTS FROM NEW YORK TO PENNSYLVANIA.

>> THIS CLAIM WAS BY A TRUCK DRIVER WHO BELIEVED, PERHAPS HONESTLY, THAT HE HAD TRANSPORTED AN ENTIRE TRACTOR-TRAILER TRUCK FULL OF BALLOTS FROM NEW YORK TO PENNSYLVANIA.

AND I ESSENTIALLY SAID, LOOK, WE LOOKED AT THAT ALLEGATION.

WE LOOKED AT BOTH ENDS.

BOTH THE PEOPLE WHO LOAD THE TRUCK AND THE PEOPLE WHO UNLOAD THE TRUCK.

AND THAT ALLEGATION WAS NOT SUPPORTED BY THE EVIDENCE.

>> Braude: AS FOR TRUMP'S CLAIMS ABOUT DOMINION VOTING MACHINES CHANGING TRUMP VOTES TO BIDEN VOTES?

FORMER ATTORNEY GENERAL BILL BARR TOOK ON THAT ONE.

>> I SPECIFICALLY RAISED THAT, THE DOMINION VOTING MACHINES, WHICH I FOUND TO BE AMONG THE MOST DISTURBING ALLEGATIONS-- DISTURBING IN THE SENSE THAT I SAW ABSOLUTELY ZERO BASIS FOR THE ALLEGATIONS.

THEY WERE MADE IN SUCH A SENSATIONAL WAY THAT THEY HONESTLY WERE INFLUENCING A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THE PUBLIC, THAT THERE WAS THIS SYSTEMIC CORRUPTION IN THE SYSTEM AND THAT THEIR VOTES DIDN'T COUNT, AND THAT THESE MACHINES WERE-- THAT WERE ACTUALLY CONTROLLED BY SOMEONE ELSE WERE DETERMINING IT, WHICH WAS COMPLETE NONSENSE.

WAS BEING LAID OUT THERE, AND I TOLD HIM THAT IT WAS CRAZY STUFF, AND THAT THEY WERE WASTING THEIR TIME ON THAT.

>> Braude: AND, WHEN IT CAME TO THE STORIES OF THOUSANDS OF DEAD PEOPLE VOTING IN PHILLY, ONE OF THE CITY'S FORMER COMMISSIONERS, THE ONLY REPUBLICAN, WAS CLEAR: >> NOT ONLY WAS THERE NOT EVIDENCE OF 8,000 DEAD VOTERS VOTING IN PENNSYLVANIA, THERE WASN'T EVIDENCE OF EIGHT.

>> Braude: IN THE DAYS, WEEKS, AND MONTHS AFTER THE ELECTION, THESE OFFICIALS, AND OTHERS, INCLUDING THE REPUBLICAN ELECTION LAWYER, DEBUNKED EVERY LAST VOTER FRAUD THEORY, AS THE COMMITTEE HAMMERED HOME: >> ARE YOU AWARE OF ANY INSTANCE IN WHICH A COURT FOUND THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN'S FRAUD CLAIMS TO BE CREDIBLE?

>> NO.

THERE WAS NEVER THAT INSTANCE.

IN ALL THE CASES THAT WERE BROUGHT-- AND I'VE LOOKED AT THE MORE THAN 60, THAT INCLUDE MORE THAN 180 COUNTS-- AND NO, THE SIMPLE FACT IS THAT THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN DID NOT MAKE ITS CASE.

>> PRESIDENT TRUMP AND HIS ALLIES CLAIM THAT THE COURTS REFUSED TO HEAR THEM OUT, AND AS A RESULT, THEY NEVER HAD THEIR DAY IN COURT.

MR. GINSBERG, WHAT DO YOU SAY ABOUT THE CLAIM THAT MR. TRUMP DIDN'T HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO PROVIDE THE EVIDENCE THEY HAD OF VOTER FRAUD?

IN FACT, DID THEY GET THEIR DAY IN COURT?

>> THEY DID HAVE THEIR DAY IN COURT.

ABOUT HALF OF THOSE CASES WERE DISMISSED AT PROCEDURAL STAGE.

BUT, IN THE OTHERS, THERE WAS DISCUSSION OF THE MERITS THAT WAS CONTAINED IN THE COMPLAINTS, AND IN NO INSTANCE DID THEY FIND THE CHARGES OF FRAUD WERE REAL.

GINSBURG ARGUABLY ITS MOST PROM NENTS ELECTION LAWYER IN AMERICA THE LAST FOUR YEARS, AMONG OTHER THINGS WAS ON THE WINNING SIDE OF BUSH V GORE.

>> Braude: BUT BEYOND ALL THE ELECTION LIES, THE COMMITTEE ALSO LAID OUT HOW TRUMP AND HIS ALLIES ESSENTIALLY STOLE MONEY FROM SUPPORTERS, PROMISING IT WOULD GO TOWARD FIGHTING THE 2020 RESULTS, BUT THEN FUNNELING IT TO OTHER PLACES ENTIRELY.

>> BETWEEN ELECTION DAY AND JANUARY 6, THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN SENT MILLIONS OF FUNDRAISING EMAILS TO TRUMP SUPPORTERS.

SOMETIMES AS MANY AS 25 A DAY.

THE EMAILS CLAIMED THE "LEFT-WING MOB" WAS UNDERMINING THE ELECTION, IMPLORED SUPPORTERS TO "STEP UP" TO PROTECT THE INTEGRITY OF THE ELECTION, AND ENCOURAGED THEM TO "FIGHT BACK," ENCOURAGING THEM TO DONATE TO SOMETHING CALLED THE "OFFICIAL ELECTION DEFENSE FUND."

THE SELECT COMMITTEE DISCOVERED NO SUCH FUND EXISTED.

ON NOVEMBER 9, 2020, PRESIDENT TRUMP CREATED A SEPARATE ENTITY, CALLED THE "SAVE AMERICA" PAC.

MOST OF THE MONEY WENT TO THIS NEWLY-CREATED PAC, NOT TO ELECTION-RELATED LITIGATION.

THE SELECT COMMITTEE DISCOVERED THAT THE SAVE AMERICA PAC MADE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF CONTRIBUTIONS TO PRO-TRUMP ORGANIZATIONS, INCLUDING $1 MILLION TO TRUMP CHIEF OF STAFF MARK MEADOWS' CHARITABLE ORGANIZATION; $1 MILLION TO THE AMERICA FIRST POLICY INSTITUTE, A CONSERVATIVE ORGANIZATION WHICH EMPLOYS SEVERAL FORMER TRUMP ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS; $204,857 TO THE TRUMP HOTEL COLLECTION; AND OVER $5 MILLION TO EVENT STRATEGIES, INC, THE COMPANY THAT RAN TRUMP'S JANUARY 6th RALLY ON THE ELLIPSE.

>> ALL OF US HERE TODAY DO NOT WANT TO SEE OUR ELECTION VICTORY STOLEN BY A BOLD AND RADICAL LEFT DEMOCRATS, WHICH IS WHAT THEY'RE DOING.

>> THE EMAILS CONTINUED THROUGH JANUARY 6, EVEN AS PRESIDENT TRUMP SPOKE ON THE ELLIPSE.

30 MINUTES AFTER THE LAST EMAIL WAS SENT, THE CAPITOL WAS BREACHED.

(CHANTING AND PUSHING) >> Braude: $204,000 TO THE TRUMP HOTEL COLLECTION?

I'M JOINED BY MICHAEL CURRY, CHAIR OF THE NATIONAL N.A.A.C.P.

ADVOCACY AND POLICY COMMITTEE, AND JENNIFER HORN, FORMER CHAIR OF THE NEW HAMPSHIRE REPUBLICAN PARTY, AND ONE OF THE CO-FOUNDERS OF THE LINCOLN PROJECT, A POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE FORMED BY A GROUP OF PROMINENT REPUBLICANS AND FORMER REPUBLICANS WORKING TO DEFEAT TRUMPISM IN THE G.O.P.

>> WAS THERE ANYONE IN THAT JENNIFER, MICHAEL, GOOD TO SEE YOU BOTH, THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

LET ME START WHICH, WHAT WAS YOUR TAKEAWAY, WHAT WOULD YOU GUESS WAS THE TAKE AWAY OF ANY OF THE 74 MILLION PEOPLE WHO VOTEDDED FOR TRUMP ASSUMING SOME OF THEM ACTUALLY WATCH THIS THING.

>> I MEAN THERE WAS SO MUCH TO TAKE FROM IT WE KNEW THAT TRUMP LIED.

WE KNEW THAT TRUMP KNEW HE WAS LYING.

WE KNEW THAT MANY AROUND HIM WERE ENABLING THAT LIE.

AND I THINK TODAY TO CONFIRM THAT FOR MOST AMERICANS, EVEN THOUGH WE SUPPORT TRUMP, EVEN THOUGH BELIEVE THE LIE MOST LIKELY KNOW IT WAS A LIE, THAT HE LOST THE ELECTION.

BUT I THOUGHT WE GOT TO SEE REALLY BEHIND THE CURTAIN HOW THIS ALL PLAYED OUT.

AND HOW TRUMP AND HIS CRONIES REALLY TRIED TO PERPETRATE THAT LIE ON THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

I THINK WHAT WAS MOST DISTURBING FOR ME IS THAT HE E THAT A LOT OF HIS ALLEGATIONS WENT UNCHECKED BY THE PEOPLE WE THINK WOULD BE IN PLACE TO DO THAT.

WHEN WE THINK ABOUT THE ATTORNEYS WHO WORK FOR THE LAWYER, THE CAMPAIGN TEAM WHO WORKED FOR THE LAWYER, MANY OF THEM SAY NOW IN RETROSPECT IN THE HEARING THAT THEY CHALLENGED SOME OF THE NOTIONS THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS PUTTING FORWARD OR THESE FALSE ALLEGATIONS.

BUT I AM DISTURBED THAT IT WASN'T AS EMPHATIC, AS STRONG AS IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN.

BUT IT'S GOOD TO KNOW THAT THERE WERE PEOPLE CHALLENGING.

>> Braude: THEY ARE PROBABLY LOOKING FOR JOBS TOO.

TO JENNIFER, SAME QUESTIONS TO YOU, WHAT WAS YOUR TAKE AWAY.

YOU REPRESENTED REPUBLICANS FOR MUCH OF YOUR LIFE.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THEY SAW IN TODAY'S HEARING?

>> WELL, I WOULD SAY THERE ARE TWO THINGS.

ONE IS THE BREATH OF THE FRAUD.

AND THAT'S WHAT THIS WHOLE THING WAS.

IT WAS A FRAUD.

IT WASN'T THAT SOMEONE TOLD A LIE AND SOME OTHER PEOPLE BELIEVED A LIE.

THIS WAS AN ORGANIZED COORDINATED FRAUD ON THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

AND WE SEE THAT FROM WHAT WE SAW THE HEARINGS TODAY, IN PARTICULAR FROM THE TESTIMONY OF PEOPLE LIKE JARED KUSHNER, WHO WAS ONE OF THE PRESIDENT'S CLOSEST ADVISORS FOR THE ENTIRE FOUR YEARS WHO WAS RIGHT THERE, YOU KNOW, THE PRESIDENT WHAT LEAD THE PRESIDENT, THE PRESIDENT LISTENED TO HIM.

BILL STEPIEN, THE PRESIDENT TRUSTED BILL STEPIEN TO LEAD HIS CAMPAIGN AND YET IN THIS MOMENT, WHEN THESE PEOPLE THAT THE PRESIDENT TRUSTED THE MOST IN THIS CIRCUMSTANCE CAME TO HIM WITH SOMETHING HE DIDN'T LIKE, THEN HE DECIDED THEY WERE NO LONGER TRUST WORTHY.

I TRUST RUDY GIULIANI WHO WAS IDENTIFIED BY SOMEONE WHO WAS THERE THAT NIGHT, AS BEING INTOXICATED.

SO THIS IS A FRAUD AND THAT'S WHAT IT ALWAYS WAS.

BUT AS, FROM THE REPUBLICAN PART OF THAT QUESTION, YOU KNOW, IF ALL THESE GUYS WHO WERE THERE ON ELECTION NIGHT KNEW THAT THE PRESIDENT WAS WRONG, THEY KNEW THAT THE NUMBERS WERE NOT THERE FOR HIM, THEY KNEW THAT HE WAS COMING OUT WITH A LIE, THEN I BET KEVIN McCARTHY AND MITCH McCONNELL AND ALL THE OTHER REPUBLICANS IN CONGRESS WHO ADVANCED THAT LIE FOR TWO MONTHS AFTERWARDS ALSO KNEW IT AS WELL.

AND CONTINUED TO ADVANCE THAT LIE TODAY, THAT THEY ALSO KNEW THE TRUTH.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, CAN WE SAY, STAY WITH YOU JENNIFER FOR YOU WITH WHERE ARE THE REPUBLICAN LEADERS.

ULTIMATELY YOU HAVE TO SLEEP WITH YOURSELF, YOU HAVE TO FACE YOUR CHILDREN, YOU HAVE TO WHATEVER.

THE ONLY GUY, ON THE RYE TODAY YULE YET CHIMIZE ASA HUTCHINSON GOVERNOR OF ARKANSAS WHO WAS ONE OF THE FEW PEOPLE WHO HAD A COURAGE TO SAY ANYTHING, HERE IS A BRIEF TAKE FROM HIM ON FOX NEWS SUNDAY, COUPLE OF DAYS AGO, STHEER.

I WOULD AGREE HE IS POLITICALLY MORALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR MUCH OF WHAT HAS HAPPENED BUT IN TEMPLES OF CRIMINAL LIABILITY, I THINK THE COMMITTEE HAS A LONG WAY TO GO BEFORE THEY COULD ESTABLISH THAT SO FOR ALL THE REP CAP LEADERS THE ONLY THING THEY STAR FOR IS RE-ELECTION?

IS THAT THE BOTTOMLINE WITH VIRTUALLY EVERYBODY?

>> JIM, THAT IS EXACTLY WHY I AM A FORMER REPUBLICAN.

I DIDN'T LEAD THE PARTY UNTIL AFTER THE ELECTION.

HI THE HOPE THAT THE PARTY WAS GOING TO SHOW RETURN TO ITS PRINCIPLE ONCE THEY SAW THAT TRUMP HAD LOST, THAT THEIR MONEY MAKER WAS GONE.

AND THAT'S NOT WHAT HAPPENED AT ALL.

AND TO THIS DAY, TO THIS DAY, YOU KNOW, TALK TO KEVIN McCARTHY TODAY, TALK TO ANY OF THOSE GOVERNORS WHO ARE THINK BEING RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT TODAY.

YOU KNOW, THAT'S EXACTLY WHY I D-- MY PERSONAL COMMITMENT, I MADE IT VERY CLEAR I WILL NEVER VOTE FOR ANOTHER REPUBLICAN AGAIN FOR AS LONG AS I LIVE WHO IS UNWILLING TO DENOUNCE DONALD TRUMP AND HIS LIES.

>> YOU KNOW, A STORY THAT UNFORTUNATELY, MICHAEL, HAS GOTTEN TOTALLY LOST BECAUSE OF Z THESE HEARINGS, AND BELIEVE ME I THINK THE HEARINGS ARE ALL ABOUT THE FUTURE OF DEMOCRACY, SO THEY SHOULD STAY CENTER STAGE, AT THE SAME TIME THAT DONALD TRUMP IS TRYING TO LEAD AN INSURRECTION, THE WIFE OF THE SUPREME COURT JUSTICE IS TRYING TO LEAD AN INSURRECTION OR AT LEAST BE A LIEUTENANT IN AN ARMY.

WE READ OVER THE WEEKEND THAT BEGINY THOMAS DIDN'T-- DID WIFE OF CLARENCE THOMANCE, DIDN'T CONTACT JUST TWO MEMBERS OF THE ARIZONA LEGISLATES TURE, SHE CONTACTED 29 IN AN ATTEMPT TO HAVE THEM CREATE A SEPARATE SET OF ELECTORS.

WHAT IS YOUR REACTION WHEN YOU SEE THAT THAT IS BARELY A BLIP ON THE DAMN SCREEN, MICHAEL CURRY?

>> YEAH, I MEAN IT'S SO MUCH DISAPPOINTMENTED IN HOW GOVERNMENT OPERATED THAT WE ALMOST ARE NUMB TO IT OR AS WE WOULD SAY WEATHERED TO IT.

WHEN YOU SEE HOW COMPLICIT MANY OF THE MEMBERS OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY WERE WITH THE BIG LIE, WITH THE INSURRECTION, WHEN YOU WATCH EVEN A SITTING SUPREME COURT JUSTICE'S WIFE ENGAGE IN AN ATTEMPT TO OVERTURN, OVERTHROW THE GOVERNMENT, THAT SHOULD DISTURB US ALL.

>> YEAH.

>> BUT THERE IS HOW MUCH WE'RE WEATHERED TO THIS PERVERSE PLAY OUT OF DEMOCRACY THAT NOW WE, IT'S ALMOST LIKE YOU SAID, A BLIP OP THE SCREEN.

I WAS THINK BEING THE REFERENCE TO DEAD PEOPLE VOTING AND OF COURSE THEY KNEW THAT WAS BOGUS, AND THOUGHT ABOUT THE BRUCE WILLIS MOVIE WHEN THE YOUNG KID SAYS I SEE DEAD PEOPLE, SIXTH SENSE.

AND WE ARE AT THAT POINT NOW THAT WE'RE MAKING THINGS UP IN ORDER TO WIN.

THAT IS THE POLITICAL VICTORY THAT PEOPLE ARE SEEKING WITH AN ELECTION.

WE SHOULD ALL BE DISTURBED BY THAT.

>> YOU MENTIONED A MINUTE AGO THE COMMENT THAT RUDY GIULIANI WAS INEVEN RAISED.

BILL STEPIAN REFERRED TO HIM SESM, I WAS HAPPY TO HEAR ME AND MY FELLOW HONEST SOULS BEING CALLED-- NORMAL HE DIDN'T USE THIS TERM, THERE WAS THEN TEAM NORMAL AND THEN THERE WAS TEAM INEBRIATED.

HERE SAY LITTLE BIT ABOUT RUDY GHOULIANEE ON ELECTION NIGHT.

>> WAS THERE ANYONE IN THAT CONVERSATION WHO IN YOUR OBSERVATION HAD TOO MUCH TO DRINK?

>> MAYOR GIULIANI.

>> THE MAYOR WAS DEFINITELY INTOKS RATE-- INTOXICATED BUT I DO NOT KNOW HIS LEVEL OF INTOXICATION WHEN HE SPOKE WITH THE PRESIDENT.

THERE WAS SUGGESTIONS BY I BELIEVE IT WAS MAYOR GIULIANI TO DECLARE VICARY AND SAY THEY WON IT OUTRIGHT.

>> IT WAS FAR TOO EARLY TO BE MAKING ANY CALLS LIKE THAT.

>> I THINK EFFECTIVELY MAYOR GIULIANI WAS SAYING WE WON IT.

THEY'RE STEALING IT FROM US, WHERE DID ALL THE VOTES COME FROM.

HE JUST SAID WE WON AND ESSENTIALLY THAT ANYONE WHO DIDN'T AGREE WITH THAT POSITION AS BEING WEAK.

>> JENNIFER, IT SEEMS TO ME THE MAJOR PURPOSE OF TODAY'S HEARING, DAY TWO OF SIX OR SEVEN, WE'RE NOT SURE HOW MANY THEY ARE GOING TO BE, WAS APPROVED NOT ONLY TRUMP LIED BUT THAT TRUMP KNEW THAT HE WAS LYING.

BUT IT SEEMS TO ME THAT INEVEN RATE ORDER NOT, GIULIANI IS A COVER.

IF DONALD TRUMP WAS, LET'S ASSUME HE IS PROSECUTED.

WE'LL GET TO THAT IN A SECOND.

DONALD TRUMP'S DEFENSE IS SURE, STEPIEN TOLD ME HE THOUGHT WITH IT WHAT ISES OVER, JANE DOE TOLD ME THEY THOUGHT IT WAS OVER, AMERICA'S MAYOR AT ONE POINT TOLD ME HE THOUGHT I WON ANY LANDSLIDE.

I FOLLOWED HIS ADVICE, I HAD TO GO ONE OF TWO WAY, ISN'T GIULIANI HIS COVER?

>> YOU KNOW, I SUPPOSE IN MISS DORCH ALT TRUMP'S MIND GIULIANI IS HIS COVER.

BUT WHO DID HE HIRE AND PAY TO GIVE HIM ADVICE ON THE CAMPAIGN TO TELL HIM HOW TO WIN AND IF HE WOP.

AND YOU KNOW, STEPIEN, YOU KNOW, GOD BLESS HIS LITTLE HEART SITTING THERE WITH HIS, WE TOLD HIM TO SAY IT IS TOO CLOSE TO CALL.

THAT IS SUCH A TRANSPARENT, POLITICAL LINE.

YOU KNOW, FIRST OF ALL, IT WASN'T TOO CLOSE TO CALL.

IN MOST CASES WHERE THEY WERE TRYING TO SUGGEST IT WAS.

BUT THAT IS WHAT PLILT KAL OPERATIVES TELL THEIR CANDIDATES TO SAY WHEN THE CANDIDATE JUST DOESN'T WANT TO LET GO.

AND THE IDEA IS BY THE MORNING, HE WILL HAVE SLEPT A LITTLE, HE WILL HAVE SEEN THE NUMBERS, UNDERSTAND WHERE HE IS AND EVERYTHING WOULD COME TOGETHER.

YOU KNOW, IN MY, FROM THE POLITICAL PERSPECTIVE, I DON'T SEE ANY COVER IN A DRUNK RUDY GIULIANI TELLING HIM THAT HE REALLY WON THIS RACE.

>> BY THE WAY TRUMP HAS GOTTEN TO SLEEP ON IT LIKE 550 TIMES NOW AND STILL HASN'T COME TO HIS SENSES.

MICHAEL, YOU WERE ON THE RADIO WITH US TODAY, I BROACH THE QUESTION I WANT TO BROACH WITH BOTH OF YOU AGAIN.

IF THIS COMMITTEE ULTIMATELY MAKES THE REFERRALS TO THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT SAYING WE BELIEVE HE COMMITTED A CRIME.

HE DID THE ILLEGAL ACTS AND HE KNEW THAT HE WAS LYING IN HIS ATTEMPT TO ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO ENGAGE IN ILLEGAL ACTS, THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE, AND BY THE WAY, EVEN IF THEY DON'T MAKE A REFERRAL, MERRICK GARLAND IS STILL OBVIOUSLY ON HIS OWN.

HE STILL COULD PROSECUTE DONALD TRUMP, THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WITH WHOM I HAVE POK EN, PRETTY GOOD LAWYERS WHO THINK YEAH, DONALD TRUMP HAS COMMITTED SERIOUS CRIMES.

BUT IT'S NOT IN THE INTEREST OF THIS COUNTRY TO PROSECUTE A FORMER PRESIDENT DESPITE THOSE CRIMES.

WHETHER WHERE DO YOU FALL ON THAT?

>> YEAH, WELL, AS I SAID ON THE RADIO WITH YOU EARLIER, I THINK IT IS A CONTRADICTION THAT WE TALK OFTEN AS A COUNTRY ABOUT HOLDING OTHER LEADERS OF OTHER COUNTRIES ACCOUNTABLE FOR CRIMES.

AND YET WHEN IT COMES TO OUR OWN COUNTRY AND CRIMES, THE CONTRADICTION IS WE SAY WELL, IT'S TOO DAMAGING ON OUR DEMOCRACY.

THE REALITY IS IF HE COMMITTED AND CRIME, AND I THINK IT SAY FORE GONE CONCLUSION THAT DONALD TRUMP INCITED THE INSURRECTION THAT HE HAS A HISTORY, A LONG HISTORY GOING BACK TO HIS REAL ESTATE DAYS OF BEING CORRUPT, AND SHOULD BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THAT.

WE SHOULD NOT EVEN HESITATE TO HOLD HIM ACCOUNTABLE, EVEN THOUGH HE IS A FORMER PRESIDENT.

I FIND THAT CONTRADICTORY AND I WANT TO REFERENCE QUICKLY BECAUSE I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT.

IN THE HEARING TODAY THEY TALKED ABOUT HIS DAY IN COURT AND QUITE FRANKLY THE JUDGES AND THE COURTS HAVE COME ACROSS 61 LOSS, ONE WIN, 22 JUDGES APPOINTED BY REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTS OVERSAW THOSE CASES, TEN TRUMP APPOINTED JUDGES, THREE ALL TRUMP APPOINTED SUPREME COURT JUSTICES REJECTED THE FRAUD CLAIMS.

THESE ARE EVEN PEOPLE WHO YOU THINK WOULD BE NATURALLY ALIGNED WITH TRUMP WHO THEN ALSO SAW THESE AS BOGUS CLAIMS, THAT SHOULD TELL US SOMETHING.

>> Braude: HOW ABOUT PROSECUTION F THERE WERE CRIMES ESTABLISHED, JENNIFER?

>> LOOK, IF THERE WERE CRIMES ESTABLISHED, I THINK THAT IT IS DAMMING TO OUR DEMOCRACY IF YOU DON'T HOLD DONALD TRUMP-- .

>> Braude: WHY.

>> ACCOUNTABLE.

BECAUSE WE'VE-- OUR WHOLE, THE WHOLE CORNER STONE OF OUR NATION.

OF OUR CONSTITUTION IS THE IDEA THAT NO MAN IS ABOVE THE LAW, THAT NO MATTER HOW POWERFUL YOU ARE, NO MATTER WHAT-- STATE YOU ARE ELECTED NO MATTER HOW MUCH MONEY YOU HAVE, THAT YOU AND I ARE EQUAL IN THE LIES OF THE LAW.

AND IF WE LOSE THAT, THEN THAT IS-- IT IS THE DRUKSZ OF OUR DEM SOCK HE-- DEMOCRACY.

AND FRANKLY, THE IDEA THAT DONALD TRUMP HAS GOTTEN AWAY WITH AS MUCH AS HE HAS ALREADY HAS CREATED VISIBLE DESTRUCTION WITHIN OUR SOCIETY, IN OUR CULTURE AND IN OUR DEMOCRACY.

WE'VE SEEN THAT AS IT'S UNFOLDED OVER THE LAST YEAR AND A HALF, LAST TWO YEARS.

>> YOU KNOW, YOU MENTIONED THE DESTRUCTION OF DEMOCRACY.

AND I THINK THAT REALLY IS WHAT IT IS ALL ABOUT, IS WHETHER DEMOCRACY CAN SURVIVE.

BUT IT'S NOT JUST DEMOCRACY THAT MAYBE THE CASUALTY OF ALL OF THIS STVMENT ALSO SERVICE AND PUBLIC SERVICE.

THIS GUY FROM MY HOMETOWN TESTIFIED AL SCHMIDT, HE WAS ONE OF THREE ELECTION COMMISSIONERS IN PHILADELPHIA, THE ONLY ONE WHO IS A REPUBLICAN.

HE TALKS ABOUT THE THREATS HE GOT OVER ELECTION, YOU KNOW, THOSE WHO BELIEVED IN CONSPIRACY THEORIES.

HERE SAY LITTLE BIT OF WHAT SCHMIDT HAD TO SAY.

>> AFTER THE PRESIDENT TWEETED AT ME BY NAME, CALLING ME OUT THE WAY THAT HE DID, THE THREATS BECAME MUCH MORE SPECIFIC.

MUCH MORE GRAPHIC.

AND INCLUDED NOT JUST ME BY NAME, BUT INCLUDED MEMBERS OF MY FAMILY, BY NAME, THEIR AGES, OUR ADDRESS, PARTICULAR TURE BSH-- PICTURES OF OUR HOME, EVERY BITS OF DETAIL THAT YOU COULD IMAGINE.

THAT IS WHAT CHANGED WITH THAT TWEET.

>> SO IF ARE YOU AN AVERAGE PERSON WATCHING THAT TESTIMONY TODAY, MICHAEL, WHEN YOU SAY ACTUALLY I DON'T BELIEVE IN CORRUPTION, I BELIEVE IN HONEST AND PROFESSIONAL, TO USE STEPIEN'S WORDS, HONEST, WHY WOULD YOU EVER PUT YOURSELF IN THE CROSS HAIRS LIKE SCHMIDT'S FAMILY FOUND THEMSELVES IN.

>> I MEAN IT IS ABOUT SERVICE.

AND THAT SERVICE SOMETIMES COMES WITH THESE KIND OF RISKS.

I THINK, I FOUND MYSELF REALLY SAD FOR THE SCHMIDT FAMILY.

THE REALITY IS HE FOUGHT BACK AGAINST THAT FALSE NARRATIVE AND PAID THE ULTIMATE PRICE IN TERMS OF HIS FAMILY BEING PULLED INTO THE POLITICS.

AND I'M SURE WE COULD GET INTO THE DEPTH OF THAT STORY ABOUT THREATS ON HIS LIFE OR HIS FAMILY'S.

BUT ULTIMATELY WHAT THIS COMES DOWN TO, IS THERE IS A PRICE TO PAY FOR STANDING UP TO INJUSTICE, TO A LEADER WHO ACTS LIKE A RULER.

AND MANY OF RUSS GOING TO HAVE TO HAVE THAT SORT OF PROFILE AND COURAGE OURSELVES IN THE NEXT FEW MONTHS AND YEARS IF WE'RE GOING TO FIGHT BACK THIS DONALD TRUMP MOVEMENT THAT HAPPENED IN THE LAST FEW YEARS.

>> CAN YOU SAY THE SAME THING, JIRCH.

IF SOMEONE CAME TO YOU AND SAID I KNOW YOU'VE DONE SERVICE TO YOUR PARTY, YOUR STATE, ET CETERA, I'M THINKING OF RUNNING FOR, OR VOLUNTEERING FOR X BUT THAT SCHMIDT TESTIMONY REALLY MAKES ME NERVOUS.

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT MAN OR WOMAN.

>> SIMPLY THE SAME THING.

WE HAVE TO STAND UP AND IT HAS TO BE ALL OF US T CAN'T JUST, WE CAN'T ALWAYS BE LOOKING FOR SOME HERO WHO IS GOING TO COME IN AND ONE PERSON IS GO TOLLING SAVE THE DAY T IS THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, AND RIGHT NOW STA LOT OF THOSE FOLKS WHO UP UNTIL NOW HAVE REALLY BEEN DEDICATED TO DONALD TRUMP.

IT IS TIME FOR PEOPLE TO REALLY STOP AND THINK MORE CLEARLY ABOUT THIS, AND RECOGNIZE HOW THEIR INDIVIDUAL CONTRIBUTION CAN GENUINELY MAKE A DIFFERENCE, CAN CHANGE THE OUTCOME OF WHAT THE FUTURE OF OUR COUNTRY IS GOING TO BE.

WE ALL NEED TO STAND UP.

WE ALL NEED TO VOTE FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING TO STAND AGAINST DONALD TRUMP, WE ALL NEED TO BE THAT PERSON.

>> YOU KNOW.

>> AND LET ME JUST QUICKLY, YOU KNOW, WITH SOME OF THE WORK THAT I HAD DONE DURING THE 2020 ELECTION, I ALSO RECEIVED SOME CEDABLE THREATS, NOT TO THE DEGREE THAT MR. SCHMIDT DESCRIBED NAMING A FAMILY AND THAT SORT OF THING BUT ENOUGH WHERE I NEEDED TO GET THE APPROPRIATE AUTHORITIES VOFERRED.

SO IT IS OUT THERE.

THIS IS THE UGLINESS THAT DONALD TRUMP HAS BROUGHT INTO POLITICS.

IT IS A LEVEL DIFFERENT THAN ANYTHING WE HAVE SEEN BEFORE.

AND THE ONLY WAY IT STOPS IS IF THE PEOPLE STAND TOGETHER AGAINST IT.

>> WE ONLY HAVE A COUPLE MINUTES LEFT.

QUICK REACTION FROM BOTH OF YOU TO A ANOTHER DRAMATIC LINE WE PLAYED EARLIER THAT WE HAVEN'T SPOKEN ABOUT TONIGHT IS BILL BARR, FORMER TONE GENERAL COOKED THE BOOK WHEN HE SUMMARIZED THE MUELLER THING BUT TODAY APPARENTLY, OR AT LEAST, DECIDED TO COME CLEAN AND SAID WHEN I HEARD THE PRESIDENT SAY WHAT HE SAID, I'M PARAPHRASING, I SAID TO MYSELF THIS GUY HAS TO BE DETACHED FROM REALITY.

QUICKLY JENNIFER, WITH YOU, WE HAVE THE 25th TEAMENT, THAT HAS NEVER BEEN USED.

WE ARE HELD HOSTAGE TO ANY PRESIDENT WHO IS DETACHED FROM REALITY.

AND WE HAVE NO INSTITUTIONAL PROTECTION AS PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY FROM THAT KIND OF LEADER WHETHER IT IS TRUMP OR NIBBLES, DO WE?

>> WELL, AND BUT THAT'S EXACTLY THE POINT THAT WE ARE JUST MAKING.

BETSY DEVOS JUST MADE A COMMENT ABOUT THE 25th AMENDMENT COMING INTO THE CONVERSATION AND AFTER THAT WAS WHEN SHE RESIGNED.

WE KNOW IT CAME INTO CONVERSATION WITH MIKE PENCE.

WE DO HAVE THE PROTECTION THAT OUR FOUNDING FATHERS OFFERED US FOR EXACTLY THIS CIRCUMSTANCE.

BUT WHAT WE DID NOT HAVE WAS COURAGE IN THE LEADERS WHO WERE RESPONSIBLE FOREIGN FORCING IT.

>> MIKE EM YOU ARE A PRETTY GOOD LAWYER, HOW ABOUT IT, THE 25th AMENDMENT F YOU HAVE AN AMENDMENT BUT ARE YOU NOT WILLING TO USE IT FOR WHATEVER REASON, YOU DON'T REALLY HAVE IT, SO WHAT PROTECTION DO WE HAVE?

>> IN THESE CIRCUMSTANCES.

>> I MEAN JUST AS WAS SAID, WE HAVE THE CONSTITUTIONAL PROTECTIONS IN PLACE.

WE ARE HEAVILY RELIANT ON PEOPLE TO DO THE RIGHT THING.

AND THE REALITY IS THE GREAT EXAMPLE WHEN PEOPLE DID NOT DO THE RIGHT THING, THEY SHOULD HAVE EXERCISED THAT OPTION.

HE WAS DETACHED FROM REALITY.

THEY ALL KNEW IT.

AND THEY HAD A RESPONSIBLE.

I WOULD ARGUE AN OBLIGATION TO ACT AND THEY DIDN'T.

SO I WANT HISTORY TO REFLECT ON ALL OF THEM EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE FLOW TELLING ANOTHER SIDE OF THAT STORY.

WE NEED TO HOLD THEM TO ACCOUNT FOR WHAT THEY DIDN'T DO.

>> DO YOU THINK THEY CARE ABOUT HISTORY?

WHAT WAS THE GREAT LINE IN THE FIRST HEARING FROM LIZ CHAIPY ABOUT TRUMP WILL BE GONE BUT THEIR DISHONOR MEANING GOP LEADERS WILL LIVE.

THEY DECIDED TO LIVE WITH THAT DISHONOR, JENNIFER.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW WHAT, I THINK WE HAVE TO STEP OUTSIDE OF THE ELECTED LEADERS OF THE PARTY.

AGAIN, I GO BACK TO, THOSE MILLIONS OF EMAILS THAT THEY TALKED ABOUT IN THE OPENING OF THIS SEGMENT, THOSE MILLIONS OF FUNDER RAISING EMAILS THAT WENT OUT, THEY DIDN'T GO OUT TO PARTY LEADERS.

THEY WENT OUT TO FOLKS LIKE ME AND YOU, JIM.

AND THOSE PEOPLE GAINED.

AND THE PRESIDENT STOLE FROM THEM.

HE DID NOT SPEND THE MONEY THEY GAVE HIM FOR WHAT HE TOLD THEM HE WAS GOING TO SPEND IT ON.

I FEEL LIKE THOSE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO NEED TO SORT OF BECOME REATTACHED TO REALITY AND STAND UP.

THOSE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE AND FORCE OUR ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES TO BEHAVE WITH THE COURAGE AND INTEGRITY THAT WE EXPECT FROM THEM.

>> LET ME BE CLEAR, I DID NOT GIVE.

>> JENNIFER HORN, MICHAEL CURRY.

>> AND I DID NOT EITHER.

>> Braude: JENNIFER AND MICHAEL, GOOD TO SIGH BOTH, THANK YOU FOR YOUR THOUGHTS.

>> THANKS.

THE NEXT HEARING IS THIS WEDNESDAY AT 10 A.M. AND YOU CAN LISTEN TO THAT AND THE REST OF THEM LIVE ON GBH RADIO 89.7 ALONG WITH MARNLINGSRY EAGAN AND ME AND STREAM THE HEARINGS LIVE AT GBH NEWS.ORG OR CATCH THEM LIVE ON THE WORLD CHANNEL WHICH IS ALSO OFFERING A FULL REHEARING AT 3 A.M. AFTER EACH HEARING, THAT IS IT FOR TONIGHT.

PLEASE COME BACK TOMORROW, ECONOMIST LARRY SUMMERS WILL JOIN ME ON THE RISING KO COST OF EVERYTHING AND WHETHER A RESCISSION IS AROUND THE CORNER AND WHAT THE WHITE HOUSE CAN AND CAN'T DO ABOUT THAT.

AND KATY TUR OP HER NEW MEMOIR "ROUGH DRAFT."

THAT AND MORE TOMORROW AT 7:00.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

PLEASE STAY SAFE.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org