>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON:" WITH JOE BIDEN PROMISING SIGNIFICANTLY MORE HELP TO UKRAINE AS THEY CONTINUE TO FIGHT AGAINST RUSSIA'S INVADERS, TWO EXPERTS JOIN ME ON HOW, AND IF, THIS WAR WILL EVER END, AND HOW.

THEN, WITH BOSTON GEARING UP FOR SEVERAL JUNETEENTH CELEBRATIONS THIS WEEK AND BEYOND, KING BOSTON EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR IMARI PARIS JEFFIRES JOINS ME ON HOW HIS ORGANIZATION PLANS TO HONOR THE HOLIDAY, AND HOW WE SHOULD BE HONORING IT.

>> Braude: PRESIDENT BIDEN PROMISED UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY TODAY THAT THE U.S. WILL SHIP ANOTHER BILLION DOLLARS OF WEAPONS AND SUPPLIES IN THE COMING DAYS, AS UKRAINE GOES ON FOUR MONTHS SINCE RUSSIA BEGAN ITS BRUTAL INVASION.

AND, WHILE THE FIGHTING HAS MADE IT IMPOSSIBLE TO GET AN ACCURATE COUNT OF HOW MANY UKRAINIANS HAVE BEEN KILLED, MOST ESTIMATES PUT THE NUMBER AT TENS OF THOUSANDS OF SOLDIERS AND CIVILIANS.

SEVERAL THOUSAND CIVILIANS WERE KILLED IN THE CITY OF MARIUPOL ALONE, WHICH IS NOW UNDER RUSSIAN CONTROL.

AND WHILE UKRANIANS HAVE MOUNTED A REMARKABLE DEFENSE, BEATING BACK RUSSIAN FORCES OUTSIDE KYIV AND STALLING THE INVASION ACROSS MUCH OF WESTERN UKRAINE, KREMLIN FORCES HAVE TAKEN OVER MUCH OF THE EAST, AND ARE CLOSING IN ON TOTAL CONTROL OF THE DONBAS REGION.

DEFENSE SECRETARY LLOYD AUSTIN ALSO MET WITH A GROUP OF AROUND 50 OTHER COUNTRIES IN BRUSSELS TODAY, WITH THE AIM OF SENDING MORE HELP.

BUT, IS IT ENOUGH?

CAN UKRAINE PREVAIL?

AND WHAT OF U.S.-RUSSIA RELATIONS GOING FORWARD?

I'M JOINED BY TOM NICHOLS, AN INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS EXPERT, A REGULAR CONTRIBUTOR TO "THE ATLANTIC," AND AUTHOR OF ITS "PEACEFIELD" NEWSLETTER.

AND, CAROL SAIVETZ, A SENIOR ADVISOR FOR M.I.T.

'S SECURITY STUDIES PROGRAM, AND A RESEARCH ASSOCIATE AT HARVARD'S DAVIS CENTER FOR RUSSIAN AND EURASIAN STUDIES, AND THE HARVARD UKRAINIAN INSTITUTE.

CAROL, TOM, THANKS, GOODS TO SEE YOU BOTH.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Braude: CAROL, IT STARTED WITH, THE CONVENTIONAL WISDOM WAS RUSSIANS WITHIN A WEEK THEN UKRAINIANS WERE HOLDING THEIR OWN, BRAIF UKRAINIANS, MAYBE THEY MIGHT EVEN WIN, AND THE LAST FEW DAYS WAS WELL, RUSSIA IS REGAINING AN ADVANTAGE, AGAIN, CONVENTIONAL WISDOM.

WHAT DO YOU ASSESS AS THE CURRENT STATE OF AFFAIRS?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT STORY IS PRETTY ACCURATE IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS SORT OF EVOLVING INTO A WAR OF ATTRITION, TOM CAN TALK MORE ABOUT THE MILITARY SITUATION THAN I KSM A WAR OF ATTRITION BETWEEN THE UKRAINIAN TROOPS AND THE RUSSIAN TROOPS, MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT THE UKRAINIANS ARE RUNNING OUT OF THE SOVIET ERA AMMUNITION THAT THEY WOULD NEED TO CONTINUE THE FIGHT.

AND THE TERRAIN IS VERY DIFFERENT IN THE DONBAS FROM WHAT IT WAS AROUND KYIV AND KHARKIV, THE UKRAINIANS CLAIM TO BE MAKING GAINS ALONG KHERSON TO THE SOUTH BUT IT'S NOT CLEAR EXACTLY WHAT IS GOING ON.

AND IN TERMS OF MAN POWER AND MATERIAL, THE RUSSIANS CERTAINLY HAVE IT HANDS DOWN OVER THE UKRAINIANS.

>> Braude: TOM, WHAT DO YOU WANT TO ADD TO THAT?

>> CAROL IS RIGHT.

AND THE THING TO BEAR IN MIND IS THERE WAS A LOT OF OVEREXUBERANT PREDICTION OF ULTIMATE UKRAINIAN VICTORY A LITTLE TOO EARLY IN THIS CONFLICT BECAUSE UKRAINIANS WERE DOS SO WELL.

AND IT IS IMPORTANT TO POINT SOMETHING OUT.

THE RUSSIANS BY THEIR OWN GOALS HAVE LOST THIS WAR.

THE RUSSIANS WENT TO WAR TO CAPTURE UKRAINE HOMES, THE KYIV COLLAPSE, TO DRIVE OUT THE RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT, THEY FAILED AND IN THAT SENSE THEY HAVE LOST THIS WAR.

THIS IS NOW A DIFFERENT WAR WHERE THEY ARE JUST GOING TO GRIND AWAY AT THE EASTERN EDGE OF UKRAINE, METER BY METER AND KILL PEOPLE FOR-- I THINK MOSTLY BECAUSE THE UKRAINIANS ARE SIMPLY BEING DEFIANT AT THIS POINT.

AND IN THAT KIND OF A STRUGGLE, TIME AND ATTRITION ARE NOT ON THE SIDE OF THE UKRAINIANS FIGHTING A MUCH BIGGER POWER, SURROUNDING THEM ON THREE SIDES.

SO YOU KNOW, THE NARRATIVE AS CARROLL-- CAROL POINTS OUT, THE NARRATIVE IS RIGHT, THE UKRAINIANS, I WAS ONE OF THE PEOPLE THAT THOUGHT THEY WOULD BE HIT PRETTY HARD AND POTENTIALLY COLLAPSE.

THEN THEY FOUGHT BACK, THEY WON THE BATTLE OF KYIV BUT THIS IS A DIFFERENT WAR NOW AND IT IS GOING TO BE A LONG SLOG OF ATTRITION THAT IS GOING TO REALLY TAKE A LOT OUT OF THE UKRAINIANS.

>> TOM, STAYING WHERE YOU.

MY IN-EXPERT ANALYSIS IS THE PUBLIC HAS LOST INTEREST OR AT LEAST REDIRECTED OUR INTEREST OUR TO THE PRICE OF GAS WHICH MAKES IT EASIER FOR OUR LEADERS NOT TO DO AS MUCH AS WE SHOULD.

ARE WE DOING ENOUGH?

IS THE UNITED STATES DOING ENOUGH TO HELP UKRAINE?

>> I DON'T THINK ANYONE IS DOING ENOUGH THROUGHOUT THE FREE WORLD BUT WE'RE ALSO DOING A LOT.

AND I THINK THERE HAS BEEN A FALSE DIE COT ME IN THE DEBATE ABOUT THIS WHICH IS THAT IF WE'RE NOT DOING EVERYTHING, THEN SOME PEOPLE THINK WE'RE DOING NOTHING.

WE'RE DOING QUITE A LOT.

WE CAN DO MORE.

THE EUROPEANS CAN DO MORE.

>> Braude: WHAT SHOULD WE BE DOING?

WHAT IS THE MORE THAT WE'RE NOT DOING.

>> FASTER DELIVERY OF BETTER WEAPONS, PICK UP THE TEMPO, PICK UP THE TRAINING, MAKE SURE THOSE WEAPONS GET THERE, CUT THROUGH A LOT OF THE RED TAPE, SOME OF THIS ISN'T REALLY ABOUT HESITANCY ON OUR PART OR NATO'S PART, ST JUST THAT WE ARE BIG, CLUMSY BUREAUCRATIC ORGANIZATIONS THAT HAVE A LARD TIME SHIPPING THINGS AROUND.

SO I THINK THAT THE ONLY WAY THAT WE CAN REALLY HELP HERE IS TO MAKE THIS PAINFUL ENOUGH FOR THE RUSSIANS TO SLOW DOWN.

YOU'RE NOT GOING TO NEGOTIATE WITH THEM.

YOU ARE NOT GOING TO CON VINSZ PUTIN THAT HE WAS WRONG.

YOU JUST HAVE TO MAKE IT SO THAT THE UKRAINIANS CAN KEEP INFLICTING A REALLY HIGH PRICE ON THE RUSSIANS.

AND WE CAN DO THAT BUT WE HAVE TO PICK UP THE PACE AND KEEP SENDING BETTER WEAPONS.

>> CAN I JUMP IN.

>> OF COURSE.

>> I THINK ONE OF THE ISSUES IS THAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS BEEN PARTICULARLY FEARFUL OF CROSSING SOME IMAGINARY LINE THAT WOULD SHOW GET US INTO A HEAD-TO-HEAD CONFLICT WITH THE RUSSIANS.

WE'LL SEND THEM WEAPONS THAT ONLY EXTEND X MILES BUT DON'T HAVE THE RANGE FOR Y MILES, AND AT SOME POINT THE RUSSIANS HAVE THE ABILITY, WITH THEIR MISSILE CAPABILITIES FOR HITTING LVIV AND OTHER PARTS OF UKRAINE WHICH HAVEN'T BEEN HIT VERY REGULARLY INCLUDING TAKING OUT THE ARMED DE POTS THAT WE ALREADY PROVIDE TOGETHER UKRAINIANS.

AND THE UKRAINIANS ARE REALLY NOT RETALIATING.

THERE HAVE BEEN FIRES AND MINOR HELICOPTER RAIDS AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

BUT THEY DON'T HAVE THE CAPABILITY TO ATTACK LIKE THE MISSILE LAUNCHERS INSIDE RUSSIAN TER TOAR.

>> Braude: IS IT UNFAIR TO SAIVMENT I AM SO GLAD YOU BROUGHT UP THIS POINT.

I FELT THROUGHOUT THIS THAT PUTIN IS DETERMINING THE TERMS OF ENGAGEMENT WHEN HE SAYS CROSSING A LINE, WE WILL CONSIDER AS BEING A DIRECT ATTACK ON RUSSIA, THAN WE DON'T DO THAT THING.

I MEAN IT IS-- IS HE NOT CALLING THE SHOTS?

IS THAT UNFAIR?

>> IT CERTAINLY SEEMS THAT WAY, JIM.

I AM NOT GOING TO DISAGREE WITH YOU.

EVERY TIME HE MENTIONS THE WORD NUCLEAR WEAPONS OR THEIR NUCLEAR ARSENAL, WE SUDDENLY SAY OH MY GOD, WE CAN'T DO ANYTHING MORE.

>> Braude: AND POLAND CAN'T SEND PLANES BECAUSE EVEN IF WE USE THIS BACK DOOR METHOD, LIKE A MONTH AGO, WE WILL QUR CONSIDER THAT A DIRECT ATTACK ON RUSSIA.

SO ENOUGH OF THAT.

>> RIGHT, SO WE'RE HAMSTRUNG AT LEAST BY THIS PERCEPTION THAT WE DO NOT WANT TO PROVOKE THE RUSSIANS AND THAT WE DO NOT WANT TO TAKE ITS RISK THAT PUTIN MIGHT INDEED IF HIS BACK IS UP AGAINST THE WALL USE A NUCLEAR WEAPON OR CHEMICAL WEAPON IN UKRAINE ITSELF.

I'M NOT CONVINCED THAT THE RUSSIANS WOULD RESORT TO A NUCLEAR WEAPON ALTHOUGH IT IS PART OF THEIR MILITARY DOCTRINE IF THEY FEEL THAT THERE IS AN EXISTENTIAL THREAT, THAT THEY WOULD BE THE FIRST TO USE NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

>> TOM, LET ME SPEAK TO YOU IN YOUR JOURNALISTIC HAT FOR A MINUTE IT IS SORT OF POGOESQUE.

WE HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY IN THE DUST.

MY FAVORITE NATIONAL NUP, "THE WASHINGTON POST," TWO SATURDAYS AGO, ON MY PHONE I COUNTED THE NUMBER OF STORIES UNTIL WE GOT TO UKRAINE.

THERE WERE THINGS THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN UP THERE THAT MADE A LOT OF ACCEPTS.

BUT THEN THERE WAS THE AMBER HEARD JOHNNY DEPP TRIAL, THE BEST SPOTS TO VISIT ON THE MARYLAND SHORE.

NUMBER 27 WAS UKRAINE.

IT SEEMS TO ME WHEN ITS PRESS REDIRECTS ITS ATTENTION FROM SOMETHING LIKE THAT, VLADIMIR PUTIN, MAYBE NOT INDIVIDUALLY, BUT HIS PEOPLE ASSESS THAT THEY CAN BE EVEN MORE BRUTAL BECAUSE WE'RE NOT PAYING CLOSE A STENGS BECAUSE WE'RE NOT SEEING THE CARNAGE ON OUR TELEVISION SCREENS AT NIGHT.

IS THAT A DECENT ASSESSMENT.

>> I'M GOING TO PUSHBACK, JIM, AND SAY YOU CAN'T BLAME THE MEDIA FOR SERVING UP JUNK FOOD WHEN THAT IS WHAT PEOPLE WANT TO READ.

WELCOME TO DEMOCRACY, SORRY, BUT I WISH PEOPLE CARED MORE ABOUT UKRAINE THAN THEY DO ABOUT JOHNNY DEPP AND I HAVE, YOU KNOW, BANGED THE TABLE ABOUT THIS MY WHOLE CAREER.

BUT I ALSO THINK THAT ITS MEDIA IS DOING A REALLY GOOD JOB OF REPORTING ON WHAT IS ACTUALLY GOING ON, IF YOU ARE A CITIZEN WHO CARES ENOUGH TO FIND OUT ABOUT IT.

AND I WANTER TO LEAVE MY MILITARY HAT ON FOR A MINUTE AND SAY THE FEAR OF ESCALATION PROBLEM IS NOT SOMETHING TO JUST WAVE AWAY.

WE ARE NOW IN THE BIGGEST WAR, EUROPE IS IN THE BIGGEST WAR SINCE THE NAZIS ROLLED EAST.

THERE ARE FOUR NUCLEAR-ARMED COUNTRIES INVOLVED IN THIS CONFLICT, THE UNITED STATES, RUSSIA, BRITAN AND FRANCE.

I'M NOT-- I TAKE CARROLL'S POINT THAT I DON'T THINK THE RUSSIANS ARE SITTING AROUND SAYING TODAY IS NUCLEAR GO DAY.

I WORRY ABOUT PUTIN BEING RECKLESS ENOUGH BECAUSE HE WAS RECKLESS ENOUGH TO DO THIS STUPID THING TO BEGIN WITH, THAT CHAIN OF EVENTS THAT THEN LEADS TO AN ES YOU CAN LA TORE SPIRAL THAT WE DIDN'T WANT AND THEY DIDN'T WANT.

SO WHILE I TAKE THE POINT THAT I THINK IT'S NOT FAIR THAT PUTIN HAS BEEN DICTATING THIS ENGAGEMENT, BUT I DO THINK THAT FEAR OF ESCALATION AND CAUTION ABOUT ESCALATION ISN'T SOMETHING TO JUST WAVE AWAY.

AND WE WILL WISH WE HAD BEEN PLOR CAREFUL ABOUT IT.

>> CAN I STAY WITH YOU AND QUOTE YOU TO YOU.

YOU WROTE PUTIN WANTS TO STAY IN POWER, IT IS NOT A CHALLENGE, I'M LOOKING FOR AN EXPLANATION.

THE RUSSIAN WANTS THRAIR ESSENTIALS OF SUPERIOR OR-- THE RUSSIAN ELITE WANT TO-- DSHT RUSSIAN MILITARY WANT TO PROVE THEY ARE NOT A BUNCH OF INCOMPETENT STUMBLEBUMS, THIS ISN'T GOING TO END SOON.

SO WHAT WILL CAUSE IT TO END?

WHAT IS THE THING THAT WILL HAPPEN FOR OR SET OF THINGS THAT FINALLY BRINGS THIS TO A CONCLUSION?

>> VLADIMIR PUTIN LEAVING POWER, EITHER BY THE WILL OF GOD OR BY ACTION, PEOPLE AROUND HIM.

>> AND IF HE DOESN'T, IT NEVER ENDS.

>> RIGHT, I THINK THAT'S ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

>> Braude: CAROL.

>> I AGREE WITH TOM ON THIS.

ALTHOUGH I WILL SAY THAT THIS SEEMS LIKE THERE IS SOME SKIPPING AROUND ITS EDGES.

THEIR ARTICLE, IN FACT TOM AND I WERE CORRESPONDING ON FACEBOOK ABOUT THIS, THERE ARE MORE ARTICLES ABOUT, YOU KNOW, SOLDIERS, MOTHERS WANTING TO KNOW WHERE THEIR CHILDREN ARE, WHERE THEIR MEN, YOU KNOW, MALE CHILDREN ARE.

>> RUSSIAN MOTHERS.

>> RUSSIAN.

THIS LINE THAT SANCTIONS DON'T WORK, ARE NOT HURTING THE RUSSIAN PUBLIC ENOUGH.

I JUST SAW AN ARTICLE NBC NEWS SAYING THE RUSSIANS HAVE STARTED PRODUCING CARS AGAIN BUT THERE ARE NO AIR BAGS, NO SEATBELTS, NO STABILIZERS IN THE CAR BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE THE PARTS TO PRODUCE IT.

SO AT SOME POINT ONE WOULD HOPE THAT IT WOULD CATCH UP.

I'M NOT SURE IT IS TO THE POINT THAT THERE WILL BE A COUP AGAINST VLADIMIR PUTIN.

UNTIL ACTUALLY, ULTIMATELY, I BELIEVE WITH TOM, THAT WHETHER IT IS BY THE GAYS OF GOD OR SOME MILITARY PEOPLE TAKING ACTION AGAINST HIM BECAUSE THIS IS A THANKLESS DOOR, BUT I THINK WE ALSO HAVE TO BE CAREFUL THAT WHAT COMES NEXT MAY NOT BE BETTER.

WHEN IT WAS RUMORED ABOUT A MONTH AGO THAT PUTIN WAS SERIOUSLY ILL, THE PERSON MOST SPOKEN ABOUT WAS EVEN MORE HAWKISH THAN PUTIN IS ABOUT PROSECUTING THE WAR.

>> Braude: ON THAT NOALT, ONLY A MINUTE LEFT BUT STARTING WITH UCAR OLD BUT FOR BOTH OF YOU, SO BUILD ST PUTIN OR PUTIN 2.0, WHEN THIS IS FINALLY OVER, CAN YOU DESCRIBE WHAT THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND THAT RUSSIA IS LIKE CAROL?

>> I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE VERY FROSTY FOR QUITE AWHILE.

I THINK THAT WE'LL DEAL WITH THEM, WE'LL REVERT, WE'LL DEAL WITH THEM ULTIMATELY WHERE WE HAVE COMMON INTEREST OR WHERE OUR INTERESTS ACTUALLY COINSIDE BUT I DON'T SEE ANY WARMING.

I DON'T SEE-- THEY HAVE WITHDRAWN FROM ALL KINDS OF INTERNATIONAL BODIES WHETHER THEY ARE ACADEMIC OR MILITARY OR SOCIETIAL, SO I DON'T SEE, IT IS NOT GOING TO BE RESET 3.0 I GUESS ANY TIME SOON.

>> HOW BUT, TOM?

>> I AGREE WITH THAT.

I THINK THE RUSSIANS, I WAS ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARGUED FOR A MUCH WARMER RELATIONSHIP WITH THE RUSSIANS 25 YEARS AGO.

BRING THEM IN AS NATO OBSERVERS.

THE GA, ALL OF THAT.

YOU FLOW, THEY, FOOL ME ONCE, SHAME ON YOU.

FOOL ME TWICE, SHAME ON MEEVMENT THE RUSSIANS ARE OUT OF SECOND CHANCES.

THAT THIS REALLY HAS RESETS THE CLOCK ALL THE WAY BACK TO 19899 OR 1990.

WHERE THE RUSSIANS ARE JUST GOING TO HAVE TO PROVE THAT THEY ARE CAPABLE OF LIVING, CAPABLE OF LIVING IN EUROPE AS A CIVILIZED NATION AND I DON'T THINK ANY OF THE EUROPEANS ARE WILLING TO EXTEND THAT KIND OF DOUBT ANY MORE.

THEY WERE 30 YEARS AGO BUT ONE THING THAT WILL HAPPEN AT THE END OF THIS IS THAT RUSSIA WILL BE FACING A NATO THAT IS 32 COUNTRIES INCLUDING SIN LAND AND SWEDEN.

THEY DID THIS TO THEMSELVES AND THEY'RE NOT GOING TO GET OUT OF IT ANY TIME SOON.

>> I THOUGHT YOU WOULD END WITH THE GORK GEORGE W. BUSH WE COULDN'T GET FOOLED AGAIN.

THAT WAS CHILLING BUT REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR TIME.

>> NAH.

SUNDAY WILL MARK THE SECOND JUNETEENTH SINCE BEING ESTABLISHED AS A FEDERAL HOLIDAY BY PRESIDENT BIDEN LAST YEAR, AND SEVERAL CELEBRATIONS ARE PLANNED ACROSS THE CITY TO MARK THE DAY THAT SLAVES IN TEXAS, THE LAST CONFEDERATE STATE WITH INSTITUTIONAL SLAVERY, WERE NOTIFIED OF THEIR LONG-OVERDUE FREEDOM, MORE THAN TWO YEARS AFTER LINCOLN SIGNED THE EMANCIPATION PROCLAMATION.

AMONG THE CELEBRATIONS, KING BOSTON'S WEEK-LONG "EMBRACE IDEAS FESTIVAL," FOR WHICH GBH IS A SPONSOR, KICKED OFF MONDAY, WITH A LINEUP OF SPEAKERS INCLUDING YOLANDA RENEE KING, THE ONLY GRANDDAUGHTER OF MARTIN LUTHER KING JR. AND CORETTA SCOTT; BOSTON FOUNDATION PRESIDENT LEE PELTON; "BOSTON GLOBE" COLUMNIST JENEE OSTERHELDT; AND PLENTY MORE.

I'M JOINED BY THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF KING BOSTON, IMARI PARIS JEFFRIES.

IMARI, GREAT TO SEE YOU.

>> GREAT TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

>> Braude: I AM ASSUMING THAT MOST PEOPLE WATCHING BECAUSE I WAS IN THIS BEAT AWHILE AGO, KNOW VERY LITTLE ABOUT THE HISTORY OF JUNE TEENTD, DON'T KNOW IT HAS BEEN CELEBRATED IN MANY PARTS OF THE COUNTRY FOR MORE THAN 150 YEARS, YOU CAN PUT A LITTLE FLESH ON THE BARE BONES THAT I DESCRIBED A MINUTE AGO.

>> YEAH, YOU KNOW, IT IS A HOLIDAY THAT COMMEMORATES A TIME WHEN THE LAST FOLKS WHO WERE ENSLAVED FOUND OUT THAT THEY WERE INDEED FREE.

IT WAS BASED ON A MILITARY ORDER.

AND IN SOME COMMUNITIES ACROSS THE COUNTRY, THIS FINAL DAY IN JUNE, THIS JUNETEENTH, THE DAY OF EMANCIPATION HAS BEEN CELEBRATED, BEEN A DAY OF LIBERATION, INDEPENDENCE, AND OFTENTIMES CELEBRATED ALMOST LIKE A FOURTH OF JULY THAT WE CELEBRATE IN THE COUNTRY BUT FOR THE BLACK COMMUNITY.

AND SO THERE HAS BEEN A LONG-STANDING JUNETEENTH CELEBRATION HERE IN BOSTON AND FRANKLIN PARK, THAT HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR YEARS.

AND THE ELDERS OVER AT COMMUNITY HAVE BEEN THE SPONSORS OF THIS EVENT.

>> Braude: DO YOU WORRY, I MEAN SUNDAY WILL BE SELL RATE-- CELEBRATED ON MONDAY, THE FEDERAL HOLIDAY, DO YOU THINK THIS WILL BE LIKE SO MANY FEDERAL HOLIDAYS, A DAY OFF AND YOU GO AND BUY SOMETHING ON A DISCOUNT.

AND YOU DON'T SPEND A MINUTE TO THINK ABOUT WHY WE ARE COMMEMORATING ANYTHING?

>> I DO WORRY ABOUT THAT, I THINK SOME OF US HAVE SEEN THAT RECENT CONTROVERSY, I THINK IT WAS A BIG BOX STORE IN THE COUNTRY THAT WAS SELLING JUNE TEENTS ICE CREAM AND JUNETEENTH PARTY FAVORS.

THERE WAS A MUSEUM IN ANOTHER PART OF THE COUNTRY THAT WAS FOR JUNETEENTH SELLING WATERMELON FLAVORED SALADS, WATERMELON INFUSED SAL ADS, SO WE ARE WORRIED ABOUT JUNETEENTH BEING COMMODITYIFIED AND COMMERCIALIZED IN A WAY THAT THERE SAY FICTIONAL SIPPINGO DE MAYO OF WEARING-OF-PAINTING-- WHERE SOME OF US NOT OF CHINESE DESCENT CELEBRATING CHINESE NEW YEAR.

SO WE ARE WORRIED ABOUT THAT.

>> Braude: WHICH IS WHAT I ASSUME WHAT GIVES BIRTHS TO THE EMBRACE IDEAS, WHICH STARTS TOMORROW.

YOU CAN GIVE US A TASTE OF WHAT IS HAPPENING AND WHAT YOU INTEND, MOST IMPORTANTLY TELL ME WHAT LITTLE 14 YEAR OLD GRANDDAUGHTER OF MARTIN LUTHER KING, JR. AND CORETTA SCOTT HAD TO SAY ON MONDAY.

>> YOU KNOW, IT IS-- YOU NEVER HEARD HER SPEAK.

I MEAN SHE IS PHENOMENAL.

SHE SAY PHENOMENAL YOUNG PERSON, SO ON THE PANEL IN THE FIRST DAY WITH OUR PARTNER, THE GLOBAL CITIZEN CIRCLE, WE HADIOLANDA KING AND THE YOUNG PERSON FROM BOSTON, REALLY HAVE AN INCREDIBLE CONVERSATION ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF YOUTH ACTIVISM LEADERSHIP IN THIS MOMENT THAT IS HOW WE KICK OFF THE DAY T WAS AN HONOR TO HAVE MARTIN LUTHER KING THE THIRD UP HERE AND YOLANDA, TO KICK OFF THIS HOLIDAY WITH, WE WILL HOPEFULLY SEE THEM BACK OR SOME OF THEM BACK FORTH UNVEILING OF THE KING MEMORIAL JANUARY OF NEXT YEAR.

>> AND IS TOMORROW GBH, REPARATIONS.

>> THAT'S RIGHT, SO IN IDEA OF JUNETEENTH BEING A HOLIDAY THAT IS CENTERING BLACK PEOPLE IN OUR COUNTRY, BUT ALSO COULD BE THE DAY OF LEARNING, CON TELL PLACE, ET CETERA.

AND SO THAT IS WHY BOSTON, WHICH IS AN ORGANIZATION COMMITTED TO RAIKS EQUITY IN THE BUSINESS OF MONUMENTS, MEMORIALS AND SYMBOLS FEELS LIKE JUNETEENTH WITH THIS NEW HOLIDAY THAT HAS MERGED DURING THE PANDEMIC, AN OPPORTUNITY FOR BOSTON TO HAVE TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY AND SHOWING THE COUNTRY HOW TO SELL BRAIT JUNETEENTH.

>> WE SHOULD BE CLEAR MOST PEOPLE ASSOCIATE KING BOSTON WITH THIS INCREDIBLY BEAUTIFUL THING THAT IS BEING BUILT THAT YOU REFERENCED A MINUTE AGO, THE EMBRACE THAT WILL BE STUNNINGLY BEAUTIFUL, I THINK, ON BOSTON COMMON.

BUT SPEND A MINUTE, THAT IS NOT-- IN ADDITION TO THE IDEAS FESTIVAL, THERE IS A DEEPER LONG-TERM PURPOSE FOR KING BOSTON THAT YOU ARE WORK ON MAKING HAPPEN, CAN YOU BRIEFLY TELL PEOPLE WHAT THAT IS, IMARI.

>> YEAH, KING BOSTON IS THE RACIAL EQUITY ORGANIZATION THAT IS AT THE INTERSECTION OF A POLICY AND RESEARCH ORGANIZATION.

AND SO THAT IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE DO IS THAT WE CREATE UNIQUE POLICY AND RESEARCH THAT IS FOCUSED ON ANTIRACISM, THAT IS FOCUSED ON-- SO REPARATIONS IS ONE OF THE THINGS ON OUR POLICY AGENDA AND WE ARE AN ARTS AND CULTURE ORGANIZATION.

SO PART OF OUR OVERALL WORK IS TO BUILD THE EMBRACE WHICH WILL BE UNVEILED NEXT YEAR BUT ALSO THE EMBRACE CENTER.

SO THIS ONE OF A KIND MUSEUM, CULTURAL EXPERIENCE THAT WE'RE HOPING TO PUT IN P3.

>> YOU KNOW, THE EXECUTION OF GEORGE FLOYD WAS BOTH A TIME OF OBVIOUSLY UNIMAGINABLE HORROR BUT FOLLOWING THAT, A TIME OF ALMOST UNIMAGINABLE HOPE IN THE MINDS OF A LOT OF PEOPLE.

WE FINALLY SEE POLICE REFORM.

FINALLY SERIOUS TALK ABOUT REPARATIONS, THERE WOULD BE HEALTH EQUITY, EQUITY IN SOCIAL DETERMINE ATS BUT A COUPLE OF YEARS SOWT A POLICE REFORM HAS DISAPPEARED ON THE FEDERAL LEVEL.

SOME LEVEL HAS BEEN IMPLEMENTED IN A FEW PLACES LIKE MASSACHUSETTS.

THE WEALTH GAP IS STILL YAWNING.

AND AT LEAST BY MY LOOK AT THINGS, WE HAVE WHITE SUPREMACY ON THE RISE.

SUPPRESSION OF VOTING RIGHTS OF POOR PEOPLE AND PEOPLE OF COLOR IN PARTICULAR, A SUPREME COURSE THAT IN THE NEXT TERM VERY POSSIBLY IS GOING TO REPEAL HIRING THE VESTAGES OF AFFIRMATIVE ACTION AND HIGHER EDUCATION.

AMI MISCHARACTERIZING THE DIRECTION IN WHICH WE'VE GONE IN THESE COUPLE OF YEARS.

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK, I DON'T THINK WE HAVE.

I THINK WITH THE TYPE OF FORWARD MOMENTUM WE HAVE SEEN SINCE INN THE LAST FEW YEARS PRIOR TO NOW, YOU KNOW, WE EXPECTED THIS TYPE OF PUSH BACK.

AND I THINK 400 YEARS OF SOCIETY IN A CULTURE ROOTED ON WHITE SUPREMACY AND A CULTURE THAT STARTED OFF WITH FOLKS BEING ENSLAVED ISN'T GOING TO CHANGE OVERNIGHT.

AND SO I THINK PART OF OUR CHANGE WORK IN BOSTON IS THINK BEING THIS DE-- DECADE 2020400 ANNIVERSARY OF THE MAYFLOWER LANDING ON THE PLANTATION TO 2030 WHICH IS THE 400th ANNIVERSARY OF BOSTON, SO WE ARE THINK BEING THIS TEN YEARS AS INCREMENTAL CHANGE AND I THINK WE HAVE A LOT TO BE EXCITED ABOUT IN MASSACHUSETTS THROUGH THE EMERGENCE OF OUR CIVIC AND ELECTED LEADERS AND THE TYPE OF CONVERSATIONS THAT WE'RE HAVING.

I THINK BOSTON IS INCREDIBLY INTERESTED IN KEEPING THIS MOMENTUM AND THE CHANGE AT HAND.

I THINK THE REST OF THE COUNTRY, WE'RE SEEING THAT PUSHBACK FRONT AND CENTER.

SO I AM HOPEFUL ABOUT MASSACHUSETTS.

I'M HOPEFUL WHEN I SEE THINGS LIKE THE DRIVER'S LICENSE FOR UNDOCUMENTED FOLKS BE SOMETHING THAT PASSED RECENTLY.

I'M HOPE THAFL WE ARE OPEN MINDED AND OPTIMISTIC AROUND HOW WE LEAN INTO, INCLUDING PEOPLE IN OUR STATE.

AND I THINK BECAUSE MASSACHUSETTS IS ONE OF THE STORYTELLING CITIES OF AMERICA, THERE SAN ECHOING EFFECT ON WHAT HAPPENS HERE, LIKE HEALTH-CARE REFORM, RIGHT.

SO WE ARE ONE OF THE PLACES WHERE THAT ORIGINATED AND THE REST OF THE COUNTRY FOLLOWED SUIT, SO I THINK WHAT HAPPENS IN MASSACHUSETTS REVERBERATES THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY.

SO I AM OPTIMISTIC ABOUT THAT.

>> LET ME TELL YOU, THERE IS NOT NERLY ENOUGH HOPE ON THIS SHOW, IMARI, GOOD LUCK THE REST OF THE WEEK, NEXT WEEK AND THE MONTHS AHEAD, WE'LL TALK TO YOU PLENTY I'M SURE.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME, LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING YOU SOON.

>> THANK YOU.

THE EMBRACE IDEAS FESTIVAL CONTINUES TOMORROW, WHEN GBH HOSTS DAY FOUR FROM 11:30 A.M. TO 5:30 P.M., AND CONCLUDES FRIDAY AT THE MASS COLLEGE OF ART AND DESIGN, FOLLOWED BY THE "EMBRACE IDEAS BLOCK PARTY" IN NUBIAN SQUARE.

FOR TICKETS, YOU CAN GO TO EmbraceIdeasFestival.org.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, BUT COME BACK TOMORROW FOR ANOTHER RECAP OF THE MAJOR TAKEAWAYS FROM DAY THREE OF THE JANUARY 6 HEARING.

MICHAEL CURRY OF THE N.A.A.C.P.

AND FORMER NEW HAMPSHIRE G.O.P.

CHAIR JENNIFER HORN WILL ONCE AGAIN JOIN ME WITH THEIR ANALYSIS.

THE HEARING STARTS AT 1:00.

AND A REMINDER, YOU CAN LISTEN LIVE ON GBH RADIO 89.7, ALONG WITH MARGERY EAGAN AND ME.

YOU CAN ALSO STREAM THE HEARINGS LIVE AT GBHNews.org, OR CATCH THEM LIVE ON THE GBH WORLD CHANNEL, WHICH IS OFFERING A FULL RE-AIRING AT 3:00 A.M.

THE MORNING AFTER EACH HEARING, AS WELL.

FOR NOW, THANKS FOR WATCHING.

AND PLEASE STAY SAFE.

CCaptioned by +Media Access Group at WGBH Caccess.wgbh.org >> HEY, FOLKS!

EDGAR B. HERWICK, III FROM GBH'S "CURIOSITY DESK," WHERE YOU ASK QUESTIONS, AND I FIND ANSWERS.

TODAY, WE'RE AT THE FAMED MASSACHUSETTS INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY, WHERE THANKS TO A QUESTION FROM NEW HAMPSHIRE'S LORRAINE VON SNEIDERN, WE ARE LITERALLY CHASING RAINBOWS.

>> MY QUESTION IS WHY ARE THE RAINBOWS THAT I SEE OUTSIDE AFTER A RAINSTORM ALWAYS A PERFECT ARC?

>> RAINBOWS ARE, OF COURSE, ONE OF NATURE'S MOST CHARMING TRICKS OF LIGHT.

AND LIGHT IS EXACTLY WHAT SCIENTIST MATHIAS KOLLE SPENDS HIS DAYS PONDERING.

IN ORDER FOR A RAINBOW TO APPEAR IN THE SKY, YOU NEED THREE INGREDIENTS, SO TO SPEAK.

SUNLIGHT, RAIN DROPS, AND YOU.

AND AS KOLLE EXPLAINS, ALL THREE HAVE TO BE IN A VERY PARTICULAR SPOT FOR THE MAGIC TO HAPPEN.

>> SO THE SUN HAS TO BE BEHIND YOU.

>> OKAY.

>> THAT'S THE FIRST THING, THE SUN BEHIND YOU.

THEN AS WE WHOLE OF THE ATMOSPHERE IN FRONT OF YOU.

AND THAT'S USUALLY WHEN IT RAINS, YOU GET THE CONDITION.

AND THEN WHAT DO YOU ALSO WANT TO DO IS YOU WANT TO LOOK AT THE RIGHT SPOT.

>> THESE POSITIONS ARE CRITICAL BECAUSE OF THE TWO PHENOMENA RESPONSIBLE FOR THE APPEARANCE OF A RAINBOW, COUPLE OF OLD FRIENDS YOU MIGHT REMEMBER FROM MIDDLE SCHOOL, REFRACTION AND REFLECTION.

REFRACTION IS RESPONSIBLE FOR A RAINBOW'S COLORS.

WHEN SUNLIGHT ENTERS A RAINDROP, IT BENDS.

WHITE LIGHT, LIKE SUNLIGHT, IS COMPRISED OF A SPECTRUM OF COLORED LIGHT.

NOW EACH COLOR IS AT A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT WAVELENGTH AND BENDS AT A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT ANGLE WHEN IT ENTERS THE DROPLET.

>> ALL OF A SUDDEN, YOU GET THIS SPLITTING OF COLORS THAT ARE REDS AND THE ORANGES AND THE GREENS AND THE BLUES GO INSIDE DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS.

>> AFTER THE LIGHT ENTERS THE RAINDROP AND IS SPLIT INTO ITS COMPONENT COLORS, A SMALL PORTION OF IT REFLECTS OFF THE BACK AND HEADS IN A NEW DIRECTION WITH EACH COLOR NOW ON A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT PATH, IT REFRACTS ONE MORE TIME AS IT'S LEAVING THE DROPLET AND HEADS BACK DOWN TOWARD THE EARTH AT A VERY PRECISE ANGLE, 40 DEGREES FOR THE RED, ABOUT 42 DEGREES FOR THE VIOLET, WITH THE OTHER COLORS IN BETWEEN.

AND THAT'S JUST ONE RAINDROP.

ALL OF THIS IS HAPPENING AT AN INCREDIBLE SCALE WITH LITERALLY BILLIONS OF RAYS OF LIGHT HITTING BILLIONS OF RAINDROPS.

>> IT HAPPENS IN EVERY RAINBOW, AS LONG AS IT SEES THE RAY OF SUN, IT WILL DO THAT REFRACTION, REFLECTION, REFRACTION, SECOND, BUT IF YOU'RE NOT STANDING IN THE RIGHT POSITION, YOU WILL NOT SEE THIS BY MOST OF THE RAINDROPS.

>> BUT IF YOU ARE IN THE RIGHT POSITION, THAT MAGIC ANGLE BETWEEN 40 AND 42 DEGREES, THERE WILL BE RAINDROPS GALORE, THROWING IN NUMERABLE BEAMS OF DISTINCT RED, ORANGE, YELLOW, GREEN, BLUE, INDIGO, AND VIOLET LIGHT, RIGHT AT YOU.

AND THE RAINDROPS THAT ARE AT THAT PERFECT ANGLE RELATIVE TO THE SUN, AND YOU FORM A DISTINCT SHAPE.

>> ALL THE DROPLETS THAT ARE ON THIS ARC ARE GOING TO SEND THE LIGHT IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION FOR ME TO CATCH IT.

>> SO WE HAVE THINK ABOUT IT THREE-DIMENSIONALLY RIGHT.

SO IT'S LIKE THIS.

>> EXACTLY.

>> AND MY ELBOWS KIND OF MY EYES.

>> ELBOWS WOULD BE YOUR EYES IN THE SCENARIO.

EXACTLY.

>> YOU CAN THINK OF IT LIKE A CONE, WITH YOU AT THE POINT, AND THE RAINBOW APPEARING ALONG THE CIRCUMFERENCE OF THE BASE.

NOW, AS FOR WHY THE ENTIRE CIRCUMFERENCE DOESN'T LIGHT UP LIKE A RAINBOW.

WELL, THE GROUND GETS IN THE WAY, IF YOU COULD GET UP HIGH ENOUGH, SO THAT THERE'S A LOT OF RAIN BELOW YOUR FEET, WELL, COLE SAYS, "IMAGINE YOU'RE JACK ON A BEANSTALK."

>> AND AS HE CLIMBS UP THIS ARC WOULD ACTUALLY SHIFT WITH HIM, BUT EXTEND FULLER AND FULLER BELOW AND START TO ACTUALLY, ONCE IT'S IN HALF ARC, START TO ARC BACK ON ITSELF.

AND AS HE CLIMBS HIGHER AND HIGHER, THIS ARC MIGHT CLOSE.

AND ALL OF A SUDDEN, YOU DON'T HAVE AN ARCH, BUT YOU HAVE A CIRCLE.

>> A RAIN CIRCLE?

>> A RAIN CIRCLE, NOT A RAINBOW ANYMORE.

>> AND IF YOU THINK RAIN CIRCLES ARE COOL, CONSIDER THIS, ALL OF THOSE INDIVIDUAL RAINDROPS THAT ARE MAKING THE RAINBOW THAT YOU SEE, ARE UNIQUE TO YOUR POSITION.

AND THEY'RE CHANGING CONSTANTLY MOMENT TO MOMENT.

SO FORGET ABOUT LEPRECHAUNS AND POTS OF GOLD.

THE REAL MAGIC IS IN THE SCIENCE AND THE FACT THAT ANYTIME YOU SEE ONE, YOU ARE LITERALLY STANDING IN THE CENTER OF YOUR OWN PERSONAL RAINBOW.

DON'T FORGET TO LIKE AND SUBSCRIBE.

AND PERHAPS MOST IMPORTANTLY, LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU ARE CURIOUS ABOUT BECAUSE NO MATTER HOW COLORFUL THE QUESTION, I MIGHT LOOK INTO IT FOR YOU.

I'M EDGAR B. HERWICK III, STAY CURIOUS OUT THERE, TASTY RAINBOW.

IT