>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," MICHAEL CURRY OF THE N.A.A.C.P.

AND FORMER NEW HAMPSHIRE G.O.P.

CHAIR JENNIFER GERTSNER JOIN ME TO WADE INTO JANUARY DAY THREE OF THE JANUARY 6th HEARING AND TODAY WAS ALL ABOUT MIKE PENCE AND THE TARGET PUT ON HIM BY THE ACTIONS OF DONALD TRUMP, AND THOSE AROUND HIM.

BUT WHILE THE HEARING WAS BILLED AS FOCUSING ON THE PRESSURE THE THEN-PRESIDENT PUT ON PENCE TO ILLEGALLY OVERTURN THE 2020 ELECTION RESULTS ON HIS BEHALF, MUCH OF TODAY'S TESTIMONY FOCUSED ON ANOTHER MAN.

>> MR. EASTMAN.

>> DR. EASTMAN.

>> Braude: JOHN EASTMAN, A TRUMP ATTORNEY WHO, THE COMMITTEE MADE THE CASE TODAY, WAS THE MAIN DRIVING FORCE IN TRYING TO GET THE VICE PRESIDENT TO DECERTIFY ELECTORS WHO WOULD GIVE TRUMP A SECOND TERM IN OFFICE.

>> ALL WE ARE DEMANDING OF VICE PRESIDENT PENCE IS THIS AFTERNOON AT 1:00, HE LET LEGISLATURES OF STATES LOOK INTO THIS SO WE GET TO BOTTOM OF IT, AND AMERICAN PEOPLE KNOW IF WE HAVE CONTROL OVER DIRECTION OF OUR GOVERNMENT OR NOT.

>> Braude: IT WAS JOHN EASTMAN ACCORDING TO A BUMPLEG OF WITNESSES WE HEARD FROM TODAY FIRST CAME UP WITH THE DECERTIFICATION IDEA AND RELENTLESSLY PUSHED IT TO ANYONE WHO WOULD LISTEN.

>> MR. EASTMAN FROM THE BEGINNING SAID TO THE PRESIDENT THAT THERE WAS BOTH LEGAL AS WELL AS HISTORICAL PRECEDENT FOR THE VICE PRESIDENT TO OVERTURN THE ELECTION AND ALL THE PLAYERS LED BY MR. EASTMAN GOT WRAPPED AROUND THE AXLE.

BUT AS WE ALSO HEARD FROM NEARLY EVERY WITNESS, NO ELSE COULD LIVE AN ON TAPE TODAY, NO ONE ELSE COULD FIND ANY VALIDITY IN THE ARGUMENT AND EVEN OUTRIGHT WARNED EASTMAN THAT IT WAS DANGEROUS.

>> THERE WAS NO BASIS IN THE CONSTITUTION OR LAWS OF THE UNITED STATES AT ALL FOR THE THEORY ESPOUSED BY MR. EASTMAN, AT ALL NONE.

>> THE WAY IT WAS COMMUNICATED TO ME WAS THAT PAT CIPOLLONE THOUGHT THE IDEA WAS NUTTY AND AT ONE POINT CONFRONTED EASTMAN WITH THE SAME SENTIMENT.

>> I SAID,YOU'RE GOING TO TURN AROUND AND TELL 78-PLUS MILLION PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY THAT YOUR THEORY-- THAT THIS IS HOW YOU'RE GOING TO INVALIDATE THEIR VOTES BECAUSE YOU THINK THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN?

THEY'RE NOT GOING TO TOLERATE THAT.

I SAID, YOU'RE GOING TO CAUSE RIOTS IN THE STREETS AND HE SAID WORDS TO THE EFFECT OF "THERE'S BEEN VIOLENCE IN THE HISTORY OF OUR COUNTRY IN ORDER TO PROTECT THE DEMOCRACY OR PROTECT THE REPUBLIC."

>> Braude: AND YET, HE PERSISTED, DESPITE THE FACT THAT, ACCORDING TO THE TESTIMONY WE HEARD TODAY, EVEN EASTMAN DIDN'T REALLY EVEN BELIEVE THE PATH THAT HE WAS PUSHING WAS LEGALLY SOUND.

>> I SAID, JOHN BASICALLY WHAT YOU HAVE IS SOME TEXTS THAT MAY BE A LITTLE BIT AMBIGUOUS, THEN NOTHING ELSE THAT WOULD SUPPORT IT, INCLUDING THE FACT THAT NOBODY WOULD EVER WANT THAT TO BE THE RULE.

WOULDN'T WE LOSE NINE TO NOTHING IN THE SUPREME COURT.

AND AGAIN, HE INITIALLY SAID, WELL MAYBE WE'D ONLY LOSE SEVEN TO TWO BUT ULTIMATELY ACKNOWLEDGED THAT NO, WE WOULD LOSE NINE TO 0, NO JUDGE WOULD SUPPORT HIS ARGUMENT.

>> Braude: LEGAL ADVICE THAT AT ONE MAN DID LISS INTO DISES MIGHT THE DANGER THAT FOLLOWED >> THE VICE PRESIDENT NEVER BUDGED FROM THE POSITION THAT I HAVE DESCRIBED AS HIS FIRST INSTINCT, WHICH WAS THAT IT JUST MADE NO SENSE FROM EVERYTHING HE KNEW AND HAD STUDIED ABOUT OUR CONSTITUTION, THAT ONE PERSON WOULD HAVE THAT KIND OF AUTHORITY.

>> Braude: AND SO, AS PENCE SET OUT TO DO HIS CONSTITUTIONAL DUTY ON JANUARY 6th, 2021, THE COMMITTEE RECAPPED SOME OF THE EVENTS THAT FOLLOWED.

STARLTING WITH THE PRESIDENT'S ADDRESS TO THAT CROWD.

>> MIKE PENCE IS GOING TO HAVE TO COME THROUGH FOR US, AND IF HE DOESN'T THAT'S GOING TO BE A SAD DAY FOR OUR COUNTRY.

AND MIKE PENCE, I HOPE YOU'RE GOING TO STAND UP FOR THE GOOD OF OUR CONSTITUTION AND FOR THE GOOD OF OUR COUNTRY.

AND IF YOU'RE NOT, I'M GOING TO BE VERY DISAPPOINTED IN YOU, I'M GOING TO TELL YOU RIGHT NOW.

BUT THEN CAME TRUMP'S TWEET AT 2:24 THIS AFTERNOON.

MIKE PENCE DIDN'T HAVE THE COURAGE TO DO WHAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE TO PROTECT OUR COUNTRY AND OUR CONSTITUTION, SETTING OFFER THE REAL CHAOS.

>> HE'S NOTHING BUT A TRAITOR AND HE DESERVES TO BURN.

>> WHERE IS PENCE?

BRING HIM OUT!

BRING OUT PENCE!

BRING HIM OUT!

BRING OUT PENCE!

BRING HIM OUT!

BRING OUT PENCE!

>> HANG MIKE PENCE!

HANG MIKE PENCE!

HANG MIKE PENCE!

HANG MIKE PENCE!

HANG MIKE PENCE!

IF WAS THE LAST THING THAT NEEDED TO BE TWEETED, THE SITUATION WAS ALREADY BAD, AND SO IT FELT LIKE IT WAS ADDING FUEL TO THE FIRE.

>> RIOTERS OPENED THE EAST ROTUNDA DOOR JUST DOWN THE HALL, AND JUST 30 SECONDS AFTER THAT RI OTTERS BREACHED THE CRYPT ONE FLOOR BELOW THE VICE PRESIDENT.

>> THE SECRET SERVICE COULDN'T CONTROL THE SITUATION.

>> AT 12:26 P.M., SECRET SERVICE RUSHED VICE PRESIDENT PENCE DOWN THE STAIRS.

>> I THINK THEY HAD BEEN TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHETHER THEY HAD A CLEAR ROUTE TO GET US TO WHERE IT WAS THEY WANTED TO MOVE US TOO.

>> WE MOVED PRETTY QUICKLY DOWN THE STAIRS AND THROUGH VARIOUS HALLWAYS AND TUNNEL TO A SECURE LOCATION, UPON ARRIVING THERE THERE WAS FURTHER DISCUSSION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT WE WERE GOING TO LEAVE THE CAPITOL COME PLEX OR STAY WHERE WE WERE.

>> VICE PRESIDENT PENCE AND HIS TEAM ULTIMATELY WERE LEAD TO A SECURE LOCATION WHERE THEY STAYED FOR THE NEXT FOUR AND A HALF HOURS.

BARELY MISSING RIOTERS A FEW FEET AWAY.

>> APPROXIMATELY 40 FEETS, THAT IS ALL THERE WAS.

>> 40 FEET.

>> Braude: I'M JOINED AGAIN BY MICHAEL CURRY, CHAIR OF THE NATIONAL N.A.A.C.P.

ADVOCACY AND POLICY COME AND FLANSEE GERTNER, ALSO SUPPOSED TO BE JOINED BY FORMER CHAIR OF THE NEW HAMPSHIRE REPUBLICAN PARTY JENNIFER HORN AGAIN AS WELL BUT SHE HAD A TECHNICAL ISSUE RIGHT BEFORE TAPING, JUDGE, MICHAEL, GOOD TO SEE YOU BOTH, THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE, JUDGE GERTNER, STARTING WITH YOU, WHAT IS YOUR PRIME TAKE AWAY FROM DAY THREE?

>> I ACTUALLY THOUGHT, FIRST I THINK THE HEARINGS ARE BRILLIANT BECAUSE THEY'RE MAKING US-- IT IS VERY INTERESTING, IN ADDITION, SO THE FIRST DAY WAS THE TRUMP KNEW THAT THE ELECTION WAS FINE AND THAT IN FACT THERE HAD BEEN NO FRAUD.

TODAY IS THAT HE KNEW THAT EASTMAN'S THEORY OF HOW TO SET ASIDE THE ELECTION WAS UNCONSTITUTIONAL, AGAIN, MULTIPLE VOICES TELLING HIM THAT THAT WAS ILLEGAL.

AND THEN THERE WAS A MOMENT DURING THE JUDGE LUTTIG PRESENTATION WHERE HE TALKED ABOUT THAT TRUMP AT THE VERY LEAST HAD WHAT THEY CALLED WRONG-- WILLFUL BLINDNESS ABOUT THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER.

THAT SAY CRIMINAL LAW TERM.

THAT IS A CRIMINAL LAW TERM.

YOU TALK ABOUT WILLFUL BLINDNESS WHEN THE BLANK ROBBER SAY STS RIGHT TO ROB A BANK, IT'S MY MONEY, AFTER ALL, IN FACT SOMEONE SAYS THAT IS ACTUALLY NOT TRUE.

HE SAID I DON'T WANT TO KNOW.

SO DID WAS WILLFUL BLINDNESS BECAUSE THE CRIMINAL LAW TERM, THE OTHER THING IS THE NOTION OF REMARKABLE LAWYERS WHO WERE ADVISING TRUMP, HE SEEKS OUT THE GUY, EASEMAN-- EASTMAN WHO IS GOING TO TELL HIM THIS BILL OF GOODS.

AND AGAIN IN THE LAW THERE IS A CONCEPT OF RELYING ON THE ADVICE OF COUNSEL, BUT YOU CAN'T FIND YOUR COUNSEL ON FOX NEWS.

YOU CAN'T FIND THE GUY WHO IS GOING TO SAY WHAT YOU WANT TO SAY.

SO THIS WAS CLOSER TO TRUMP, FRANKLY, CRIMINAL CULPABILITY FOR THE EVENTS OF JANUARY 6th AND THE EFFORTS OF-- ELECTION THAT I HAVE SEEN.

>> Braude: YOU MENTIONED HOW BRILLIANT IT WAS TO DO IT THROUGH REPUBLICAN VOICES, FOR THOSE NOT FAMILIAR WITH JUDGE LUTTIG HE IS A CONSERVATIVE ICON TO SAY THE LEAST.

MICHAEL, WHAT WAS YOUR PRIME TAKEAWAY FROM DAY THREE.

>> SAME AS THE JUDGES.

I THINK THERE WERE SOME THINGS THAT REALLY STUCK OUT WITH ME.

ONE, YOU KNOW, I THINK WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR A REPUBLICAN LEADER TO SIMPLY AND IN THE LEGAL FIELD TO REALLY SPEAK OUT FULL THROATEDLY AGAINST WHAT THIS PRESIDENT WAS DOING.

I THINK THIS HEARING PROCESS IS GIVING US A LENS INTO WHAT WAS BEING DISCUSSED IN REPUBLICAN CIRCLES, PARTICULARLY LEGAL CIRCLES AROUND EASTMAN, JULIAN-- GEUL ANNIE, THE TRUMP ACTION TO OVERTURN THIS ELECTION.

AND WE'VE BEEN WAITING FOR THAT.

SO I THINK THE HEARING TODAY WAS-- I THINK WHAT SHOCKED ME MOSTLY AT THE END OF THE HEARING WAS JUDGE LUTTIG POINT.

AND I THOUGHT HE WAS COMPELLING TODAY.

BUT HE TALKED ABOUT DONALD TRUMP BEING A CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER ON OUR DEMOCRACY.

AND HE HAMMERED HOME THIS POINT AT THE END, THAT IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT JANUARY 6th.

IT'S ABOUT THE NEXT PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.

IF A REPUBLICAN PICKS TRUMP FOR A NOMINEE IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, IS NOT ELECTED, IS NOT TAKING THAT OATH, WE COULD SEE ANOTHER JANUARY 6th AND HE WAS PRETTY COMPELLING ABOUT THAT.

>> I WOULD ARGUE ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT LINES OF THE WHOLE DAY, AND IT WAS THE FINAL LINE OF THE WOLL DAY FROM THE WITNESSES WHAT YOU JUST DESCRIBED FROM THE JUDGE, SO NANCY GERTNER, YOU HAVE THE POOR PATHETIC RUDY GIULIANI AS THE PRIMARY PER HAVE AER OF THE BIG LIE AND THEN THE PAS THETIC JOHNNIESMAN WITH THE BIG ILLEGAL, I GUESS YOU CAN CALL T THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS HE WASN'T INEBRIATED.

AND EAST MRN WAS THE CENTERPIECE TODAY.

HERE IS AN INCREDIBLE MOMENT FROM ERIC HIRSCHMAN IN THE WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL'S OFFICE THE DAY AFTER JANUARY 6th TALKING ABOUT A CONVERSATION HE HAD WITH EASTMAN.

>> I ONLY WANT TO HEAR TWO WORDS COMING OUT OF YOUR MOUTH FROM NOW ON.

ORDERLY TRANSITION.

REPEAT THOSE RECORDS.

-- WORSED, AND HE SAID ORDERLY TRANSITION.

I SAID GOOD, JOHN.

NOW I'M GOING TO GIVE YOU THE BEST FREE LEGAL ADVICE YOU'RE EVER GETTING IN YOUR LIFE.

GET A GREAT FING CRIMINAL DEFENSE LAWYER, YOU'RE GOING TO NEED IT AND THEN I HUNG UP ON HIM.

>> NANCY GERTNER, WAS THERE ANY PIECE OF THE ADVICE THAT JOHNNIESMAN WAS GIVING THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES THAT EVEN IN A MOOT COURT DEBATE HAD EVEN IN MUCH OF LEGITIMACY TO IT?

>> SO THAT IS WHAT IS SO INTERESTING ABOUT THE TESTIMONY TODAY THERE WAS NO LEGITIMACY TO IT, BUT EVEN ORIGINALISTS, NUMBERS OF THE PEOPLE WHO TESTIFIED ARE-- BELIEVE IN THE ORIGINAL INTENT OF THE CONSTITUTION WHO SAID NEITHER IN THE LANGUAGE NOR IN THE SURROUNDING DEBATE NOR IN THE PRECEDENCE IS THERE ANY BASIS FOR ONE TO CONCLUDE THAT ONE MAN, MAINLY THE VICE PRESIDENT, HAS THE RIGHT TO SET ASIDE THE ELECTION.

THE OTHER THING BY THE WAY WHICH RELATES TO YOUR PREVIOUS QUESTION ABOUT, IF EASTMAN BELIEVES THAT HE HAS CRIMINAL RESPONSIBILITY BOTH FOR JANUARY 6th AND PERHAPS FOR THE EFFORTS TO GET IN TOUCH WITH OTHER STATE LEGISLATORS, IF HE HAS CRIMINAL RESPONSIBILITY AND SEEKS A PARDON FOR IT, THEN SO DOES TRUMP.

THEY ARE-- BECAUSE TRUMP IS FOLLOWING WHAT IS CLEARLY INSUBSTANTIAL, ILLEGAL ADVICE, SO THA WAS TELLING.

>> AND BY THE WAY IF PEOPLE DIDN'T SEE THE HEARING THAT JUDGE GETTER FLR IS REFERRING TO, WAS THE POINT WAS MADE BY REPRESENTATIVE AGUILAR, HE GAWLED RUDY GEUL ANNIE EASTMAN DID AND SAID I WOULD LIKE BE TO BE PUT ON THE PARDON LIST AND WHEN HE CALLED BEFORE THE JANUARY 6th COMMITTEE HE TAKES THE 5th AMENDMENT MORE THAN A HUNDRED TIMES AND THE IRONY, THE GUY WHO ONCE SAID ONLY MOB MEMBERS TAKE THE FIFTH AMENDMENT, YOU KNOW WHO THAT GUY WAS?

DONALD TRUMP.

>> THE OTHER THING IS THAT TRUMP HAS NOW ASKED OR CALLED-- BEFORE THE COMMITTEE, IN THE LATEST SOCIAL MEDIA.

I THINK THEY SHOULD TAKE HIM UP ON IT, BECAUSE IF ELYS BEFORE THE COMMITTEE AS HE IS BOUND TO DO, THAT IS ESSENTIALLY A FELONY.

>> Braude: TRUST ME, HE'S NOT SHOWING UP BEFORE THE COMMITTEE.

MICHAEL, YOU KNOW, AT THE BEGINNING OF THE HEARING, LIZ CHENEY, CONGRESSWOMAN KLAINY SAID YOU ARE GOING TO LEAR AT SOME POINT THAT WHEN THE CHANCE OF CHANTS OF "HANG MIKE PENCE" THE PRESIDENT TURNED TO SOMEONE AND SAID IT IS NOT A BAD IDEA.

I WAS SURPRISED THAT DIDN'T COME UP TODAY.

IT SEEMED TO FIT TODAY'S DISCUSSION ASSUMING IF WAS LEGIT AND I ASSUME SHE WOULDN'T HAVE SAID IT IF IT WASN'T.

I CAME AWAY MORE CONVINCED THAN EVER, NOT ONLY BECAUSE OF HIS INACTION, THE PRESIDENT, NOT ONLY BECAUSE OF THIS 2:24 TWEET THAT I READ BEFORE WHICH REALLY WAS A CALL TO ACTION, TO THE RIOTERS, THE INSURRECTIONISTS ON CAPITOL HILL WHO WERE LITERALLY LOOKING AT THEIR PHONES WAITING FOR MARCHING ORDERS, THAT DONALD TRUMP WOULD HAVE BEEN OKAY IF MIKE PENCE HAD BEEN EXECUTED ON JANUARY 6th.

IS THAT UNFAIR?

IS THAT HYPERBOLE ON MY PART?

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK WE FIND OURSELVES OFTEN QUESTIONING WHAT WE SAW AND WHAT WE HEARD.

I MEAN DONALD TRUMP IS A MASTER AT GETTING US TO QUESTION WHAT WE SAW AND WHAT WE HEARD.

THE REALITY IS IS THAT HE PUT HIS OWN INTERESTS OVER COUNTRY.

AND IF A VIOLENT INSURRECTION WOULD HAVE PROLONGED THE INEVITABLE OR PROVIDED AN OPPORTUNITY FOR HIM TO STAY IN THE WHITE HOUSE, HE WOULD HAVE BEEN FINE WITH THAT.

I THINK HIS ACTIONS ABOUT CLEAR, THE TIME LINE SPEAKS FOR ITSELF.

AND I THINK AS A CONSEQUENCE F THAT VIOLENT MOB HAD ATTACKED VICE PRESIDENT PENCE WE WOULD HAVE GOT THE DONALD TRUMP WE KNOW, THE DONALD TRUMP WE SAW IN THE RALLY, THE DONALD TRUMP WE HAVE SEEN IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

IT SORT OF DISMISSES VIOLENCE IF HE THINKS IT SERVES HIS US MATE PURPOSE.

I THINK WE HAVE TO STOP QUESTIONING OURSELVE, HE IS WHO HE SAYS HE IS.

>> SORRY, JUDGE.

>> LET ME TALK ABOUT THAT FOR A MOMENT.

UP UNTIL THIS PRESENTATION, YOU GET THE SENSE THAT TRUMP COMES-- GOES BEFORE A CAMERA AND SAYS STUFF, HE JUST SAYS IT WHETHER HE BELIEVES IT, HE JUST SAYS IT THOUGHTILESSLY.

THIS PRESENTATION WAS ABOUT HOW THOUGHTFUL HE WAS.

YOU WERE TOLD MULTIPLE TIMES THAT THE ELECTION WAS FINE.

YOU WERE TOLD MULTIPLE TIMES THAT EASTMAN WAS FULL OF IT.

YOU WERE TOLD MULTIPLE TIMES THAT PENCE WAS IN JEOPARDY.

AND YOU GO AHEAD.

THIS IS MORE THAN JUST, I'M GOING TO SAY ANYTHING FOR THE CAMERAS.

THIS WAS A SERIES OF EVENTS, IN WHICH HE WAS WILLFULLY GOING ALONG WITH AND EVEN LEADING EFFORTS TO SET ASIDE THE ELECTION AND ENDANGER PEOPLE.

>> I WOULD SAY THE TWEET WAS AN INSIGHTSMENT TO SATE LEAST.

JUDGE GERTNER, I WANT TO RETURN TO SOMETHING YOU SAID A MINUTE AGO THAT IF EASTMAN BROKE THE LAW THEN TRUMP BROKE THE LAW, WE HAD THIS DISCUSSION ON THE RADIO TODAY, SO MY APOLOGIES FOR BRINGING IT UP AGAIN.

BUT SOME PEOPLE KNOW ARE YOU VERY CLOSE TO HILARY CLINTON, THERE ARE A LOT OF RUMORS YOU WOULD BE HER ATTORNEY GENERAL.

SO PUT ON THAT HAT JUST FOR A SECOND.

I AM AMONG THOSE WHO CRITICIZE THE MEEKNESS OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL AND WORRY THAT DESPITE WHAT I SEE AS OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE, THAT HE WILL TAKE A PASS ON A CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION OF THIS PRESIDENT.

BE THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR A SECOND.

BASED ONLY ON THREE DAYS OF TESTIMONY, WHATEVER ELSE YOU HAVE LEARNED IN THE YEAR AND A HALF SINCE JANUARY 6th.

DID DONALD TRUMP COMMIT CRIME?

>> FROM WHAT I HAVE SEEN BASED ON THE REPORTING, THE ANSWER IS YES.

DONALD TRUMP'S RELATIONSHIP TO THE RALLY IS, THAT ALONE WOULD HAVE BEEN A HARDER CASE TO MAKE.

BECAUSE POLITICAL FIGURES, IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO GET A POLITICAL FIGURE FOR INCITEMENT TO RIOT, IF YOU GO BACK TO THE EFFORTS TO CONVICT MEMBERS OF THE ANTIWAR MOVEMENT FOR THINGS THAT OCCURRED DURING DEMONSTRATIONS.

IT IS A MUCH MORE DIRECT RELATIONSHIP HERE, THE BIGGER PICTURE, THAT IT WILL GET FLOO, IS NOT JUST THE JANUARY 6th EVENTS BUT THE PHONE CALLS TO SECRETARY OF STATES, THE PHONE CALLS, ARE YOU NOW NOT TALKING AGAIN ABOUT A POLITICIAN WHO GOT SWEPT AWAY BY HIS OWN RHETORIC.

YOU ARE REALLY TALKING ABOUT A PLOT SWI MUCH MORE SUBSTANTIAL, SO YES, I WOULD ADVICE, I WOULD ADVICE CONVENING A GRAND JURY.

THERE IS NO QUESTION THAT IT IS A DECISION-- I THINK IF GARLAND IS PAUSING, IT ST BECAUSE YOU KNOW, THE NOTION OF CONVICTING OR PROSECUTING ONE'S POLITICAL ENEMIES IS A VERY, VERY DIFFICULT THING TO DO.

BUT THIS WAS ALSO A UNIQUE SET OF FACTS, SO I THINK THAT THERE IS ENOUGH TO CERTAINLY CONVENE A GRAND JURY.

AND IF A GRAND JURY HEARS WHAT WE HAVE BEEN HEARING,-- HE WILL INDICTMENT HIM.

>> I DON'T ANY ANYONE WAS GOING TO APPOINT YOU ATTORNEY GENERAL FROM WHAT I KNOW BUT YOU ARE A PRETTY CONFIDENT LAWYER WHAT IS YOUR TWO CENTS ON WHETHER A CRIME HAS BEEN COMMITTED, BASED ON WHAT YOU KNOW?

>> YOU KNOW, I'M A LATIN-- FROM LATIN ACADEMY, A TERM WE USUALLY GO RES IPSA LOQUITOR.

THE REALITY IS HE DID COMMIT A CRIME AND WE NEED THE ATTORNEY GENERAL TO ACT.

BUT I UNDERSTAND, JIM, THE POLITICS OF THIS, AS THE JUDGE JUST POINTED OUT.

AND SOMETIMES THE POLITICS CAUSE US US TO PAUSE, RIGHT, ON EVERY LEVEL AND I THINK THE POLITICS HERE IS WE ARE GOING INTO A MID TERM ELECTION, WE ARE A DIVIDED NATION, FOLKS WILL LOOK AT THIS AS A PARTISAN WITCH-HUNT.

AND YOU HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT IF YOU GO FOR THE KING OR WHATEVER THAT PHRASE IS, THEN.

>> YOU HAVE TO KILL HIM, RIGHT, RIGHT.

>> YOU HAVE TO KILL HIM, SO THERE IS SOME CAUTION HERE THAT I WISH THAT THE ATTORNEY GENERAL WOULD ACT DE SIETIONIVELY AND SWIFTLY, BECAUSE IT IS GIVING THE REST OF US SOME ANXIETY TO KNOW THAT WE KNOW HE'S GUILTSY BUT HE'S NOT BEING HELD ACCOUNTABLE.

>> YOU KNOW, FOR THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN CRITICIZING THE HEARINGS, AND I HEAR THAT A DECENT AMOUNT ON THE RADIO AND SOCIAL MEDIA, OUT IN THE WORLD.

HAVE I TO SAY ONE OF THE THINGS I THOUGHT THEY REALLY HAVE DONE WELL IS CREATE AN HISTORICAL RECORD AND DO A PRETTY GOOD JOB OF EDUCATION, PUTTING THINGS IN CON SECRETARIES.

AND-- CONTEXT.

AND I THOUGHT A REALLY IMPORTANT MOMENT WAS THE DISCUSSION TODAY ABOUT AL GORE AND I DON'T THINK MANY PEOPLE THINK ABOUT THAT.

AL GORE WAS NOT JUST THE VICE PRESIDENT WHO HAD THE SAME JOB THAT MIEBLG PENCE DID A YEAR AND A HALF AGO.

HE WAS THE VICE PRESIDENT WHO WAS RUNNING FOR THE PRESIDENCY AND HAD HE DONE WHAT JOHNNIESMAN SAID THAT MIKE PENCE HAD THE POWER TO DO, THAT IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN PRESIDENT GORE ACCORDING TO EASTMAN RATHER THAN PRESIDENT BUSH.

HERE IS GORE, THIS IS DPR AN INTERVIEW HE DID ON INAUGURATION DAY LAST YEAR, AL GORE.

>> THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IN ALL OF HUMAN HISTORY IN LINCOLN'S PHRASE, WE STILL ARE THE LAST BEST HOPE OF THE HUMANKIND.

AND THE CHOICE BETWEEN ONE'S OWN DISAPPOINTMENT IN YOUR PERSONAL CAREER AND UPHOLDING THE NOBLE TRADITIONS OF AMERICA'S DEMOCRACY, IT'S A PRETTY EASY CHOICE WHEN IT COMES DOWN TO IT.

>> Braude: AND THE REASON I PLAYED THAT IS THE FINAL WORDS, BEYOND THE EDUCATION, NANCY GERTNER, PRETTY EASY CHOICE.

I THE MORE I HEAR MIKE PENCE, HIS COURAGE DESCRIBED, HIS HEROISM FOR DOING WHAT IS HIS CONSTITUTIONAL JOB.

AND I'M NOT BELITTLING THE THREAT THAT HE WAS UNDER, THE DANGER HE WAS IN.

THAT KIND-- MY ATTITUDE IS IF YOU ARE A PERSON OF COURAGE, IF YOU ARE A HERO, IF YOU ARE A PATRIOT, YOU SHOW UP AT THE DAMN HEARING.

YOU TESTIFY YOURSELF, NOT JUST YOUR COUNSEL, NOT JUST YOUR CHIEF OF STAFF, WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TO THAT?

>> I MEAN, TO WHETHER OR NOT PENCE SHOULD SHOW UP.

>> Braude: YEAH, YEAH.

>> WELL, I MEAN, YES, THAT'S WHAT HE OUGHT TO DO.

BUT HE IS WALKING A FINE LINE HERE.

HE WANTS OTHERS TO SPEAK FOR HIM.

HE WANTS OTHERS TO PRAISE HIM FOR DOING THAT WHICH HE HAD TO DO.

SO THAT HE COULD RUN AGAIN.

YOU KNOW, THERE SAN INTERESTING ISSUE, IF BSH BSH SHOWED UP YOU SHOULD IMAGINE PENCE HAD SHOWED UP, IF HIS FAMILY MEMBERS WERE SAYING THAT THIS WAS WRONG THEN PENCE SHOULD SHOW UP.

AND IT'S REALLY QUITE EXTRAORDINARY THAT WE ARE CONGRATULATING HIM FOR DOING THAT WHICH HAS BEEN DONE OVER THE PAST, YOU KNOW, 200 YEARS, 200 SOME ODD YEARS T IS NOT ONLY THE-- COMMENT THAT IS INTERESTING.

AT THE FIRST DAY OF THE HEARINGS THERE WAS A DISCUSSION OF ABRAHAM LINCOLN'S LETTER TO HIS STAFF WHICH WAS, YOU KNOW, IN ANTICIPATION OF LOSING A SECOND TERM AND ENSURING THAT EVERYONE WOULD ACCEPT THE RESULTS, KNOWING BY THE WAY, THAT WERE HE TO LOSE VIRTUALLY EVERYTHING THAT WAS FOUGHT FOR IN THE CIVIL WAR WOULD BE UNDONE.

AND HE SAID ORDINARILY TRANSITION IS MORE IMPORTANT EVEN THAN THE PRINCIPLES WE FOUGHT FOR IN THE CIVIL WAR, WHICH IS EXTRAORDINARY.

>> Braude: NOT ONLY WAS IT BEAUTIFUL, YOU GOT TO SEE THE HANDWRITING OF PRESIDENT LINCOLN ON THE SCREEN TOO WHICH WAS REALLY MOVING.

MICHAEL, I'M SORRY, I INTERRUPTED YOU.

>> YEAH, I THINK IT IS SO FUNNY.

I WOULD SAY MIKE PENCE IS A COWARD NOT FOR THE REASONS THAT DONALD TRUMP CALLED HIM A COWARD, FOR NOT OVERTURNING THIS ELECTION.

BUT THROUGHOUT THIS PRESIDENCY MIKE PENCE HAS NOT PUSHEDBACK ON THE PRESIDENT AND FOUGHT FOR THIS DEMOCRACY.

I THINK ULTIMATELY THIS HAS BEEN A HISTORY LESSON FOR ALL OF US THAT WHEN YOU HAVE A LEADER WHO ACTS LIKE A RULER, WHO MAKES HORRIBLE DECISIONS THAT ARE NOT IN THE BEST INTERESTS OF OUR COUNTRY, WHOSE BOLD ENOUGH, WILLING TO STAND UP TO THAT PERSON.

AND I THINK MIKE PENCE DESERVES NO PROFILE IN COURAGE BECAUSE HE ON RECORD NOW BUT DID NOT SHOW UP AT THE HEARING.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW NANCY GERTNER, I ASKED YOU BEING AN ATTORNEY GENERAL, LET'S GO BACK TO BEING A JUDGE FOR A SECOND.

IF THIS KISS DID COME BEFORE YOU, AND DESPITE THE FACT THAT DONALD TRUMP SEEMS TO SAY WHATEVER POPS IN HIS HEAD AT ANY PARTICULAR MOMENT, WE'VE HAD TESTIMONY FROM FAMILY MEMBERS, FROM STAFF, FROM CONSULTANTS, FROM LAWYERS, YET NO TESTIMONY THAT SAID THAT DONALD TRUMP HIMSELF EVER SAID I KNOW I'M LYING.

I KNOW THAT WHAT I AM ASKING MIKE PENCE TO DO IS ILLEGAL AND OR UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

WOULD THAT CONCERN YOU AS A JUDGE OR NO?

>> NOT AT ALL.

NOT AT ALL.

BECAUSE THE PEOPLE SAID TO HIM, AND THOSE PEOPLE TESTIFIED, THEY SAID TO HIM MULTIPLE TIMES, THE ELECTION IS FINE, THERE IS NO THEIR THERE, BUT ONE PERSON AFTER ANOTHER, THAT HE, THE NEXT DAY OR THAT AFTERNOON SAID YOU KNOW, THERE WAS A BIG FRAUD HERE.

PEOPLE SAID TO HIM THAT EASTMAN'S THEORY WAS COMPLETELY UNCONSTITUTIONAL AND ILLEGAL, AND HE WENT AHEAD AND CALLED PEOPLE BASED ON IT.

YOU RARELY HAVE A DEFENDANT SAYING OH, I KNOW I'M ABOUT TO DO SOMETHING ILLEGAL AND I'M GOING TO DO IT YOU MAKE YOUR EVIDENCE BY WHAT OTHERS AROUND HIM SAY ABOUT WHAT HE KNEW AND THEN WHAT HE DID.

>> YOU KNOW, WE ONLY HAVE A COUPLE OF MINUTES LEFT BUT I WANT TO TALK ABOUT ONE OTHER INSURRECTIONIST WHO ACTUALLY ALSO WAS IN TOUCH WITH MR. EASTMAN AND THAT IS BEGINY THOMAS, THE WHIEF OF CLARENCE THOMAS.

HERE IS THE HEADLINE, AN EXCLUSIVE IN "THE WASHINGTON POST" LAST NIGHT TALKING ABOUT COMMUNICATIONS BETWEEN THOMAS AND EASTMAN ON TOP OF WHAT WE ALREADY KNOW, AN EMAIL THAT 27 REPUBLICAN LEGISLATORS IN ARIZONA, OVERTURN THE RESULTS IN ARIZONA, HER TEXTS THAT WERE SENT TO MARK MEADOWS, CHIEF OF STAFF, AGAIN ARGUING FIGHT HARD, LET'S GET THIS OVERTURNED, MICHAEL CURRY, QUICKLY FROM YOU.

WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TO WHAT WE ARE LEARNING ABOUT BEGINY THOMAS.

>> DEEPLY DISTURBING FOR ANY SITTING SUPREME COURT JUSTICE TO HAVE A CLOSE FAMILY MEMBER TRYING TO CONTRIBUTE TO OVERTURNING AN ELECTION AND ARGUABLY-- SHOULD TERRIFY US ALL.

THE SEAT, THE CLOSE PROXIMITY THAT SHE HAS TO OUR HIGHEST COURT IN THE LAND, AND TO OUR SEAT OF POWER IN THE WHITE HOUSE SHOULD DISTURB US.

SO I THINK THIS REQUIRES MORE INVESTIGATION AND IF POSSIBLE, HOLDING HER ACCOUNTSABLE AS WELL AS MANY OTHERS.

>> Braude: SO I AM WHERE MICHAEL IS AND THEN SOME.

ARE WE BOTH SEXIST DOGSES, JUDGE GERTNER.

>> WITH RESPECT TO THIS OR IN GENERAL?

(LAUGHTER) SORRY, I COULDN'T RESIST.

>> Braude: NO, I KNOW.

>> I MEAN I THINK THAT THERE OUGHT TO BE AN INVESTIGATION OF HER BUT THIS IS NOT AN INVESTIGATION ONLY OF HER T IS OF EVERYONE ELSE WHO PARTICIPATED IN THIS PLOT.

THAT THERE IS A PLOTTIST HERE, THAT IT WAS UNCONSTITUTIONAL IS CLEAR AND EVERYONE WHO PARTICIPATED IN IT, IT SEEMS TO ME SHOULD BE INVESTIGATED.

THEY SHOULDN'T GO, JUST, THIS IS RELATED TO THE CONVERSATION ABOUT INDICTIG TOM WE SHOULDN'T GO AFTER BEGINY THOMAS IF SHE WAS A MINOR PLAYER AND THERE ARE OTHER PLAYERS THAT YOU ARE IGNORING.

THE QUESTION IS PROPORTIONALITY BUT THAT SHE PARTICIPATED IS JUST EXTRAORDINARY.

>> Braude: BUT QUICKLY THERE IS NO QUESTION, NO QUESTION IN YOUR MIND, JUDGE GERTNER, THAT HER HUSBAND SHOULD RECUSE HIMSELF IN ANYTHING RELATING TO DONALD TRUMP AS A RESULT.

>> NO QUESTION ABOUT IT, NO QUESTION ABOUT IT.

>> Braude: CORRECT?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> Braude: WE SHOULD SAY THAT THE CHAIR OF THE COMMITTEE BETTY THOMPSON WHO I BELIEVE IS A FRIEND OF YOURS, I SHOULD HAVE MENTIONED THAT, MIKE CURRY S THAT NOT TRUE.

>> THAT HE IS A FRIEND, WE GAINED A FRIENDSHIP THROUGH THE N.A.A.C.P.

>> Braude: BENNY THOMPSON SAID TODAY THEY WOULD BE INVITING BEGINY THOMAS TO TESTIFY BEFORE THE COMMITTEE SO WE WILL SEE WHETHER THAT HAPPENS.

THERE ARE SOME RUMORS THAT MIKE PENCE, DESPITE WHAT I SAID A MINUTE AGO, MAY SHOW UP AT A FUTURE HEARING, MORE TO LEARN NEXT WEEK, JUDGE GERTNER, MICHAEL CURRY, AS ALWAYS, REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR THOUGHTS, THANKS SO MUCH TO BOTH OF YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Braude: THE NEXT HEARING STARTS ON TUESDAY AT 1 P.M., WE WILL BRING YOU MORE ANALYSIS RIGHT HERE AT 7:00, TUESDAY NIGHT AND A REMINDER, YOU CAN LISTEN LIVE ON GBP RADIO 8 -9D.7 ALONG WITH MARJORIE EAGAN AND ME AND STREAM THE HEARINGS LIVE AT GBH NEWS.ORG OR CATCH THEM ON THE GBH WORLD CHANNEL WHICH IS OFFERING A FULL REAIRING AT 3 A.M.

THE MORNING AFTER EACH HEARING AS WELL.

THAT IS IT FOR NOW, WE WILL BE BACK WITH THE SUIVET THE PULITZER PRIZE WINNING BROADCAST SUAVE WHICH FOLLOWING A MAN SENTENCED TO DEATH AS A MINOR TO HIS PATH TO FREEDOM.

>> THEN, MONDAY AT 7:00.

THANKS FOR WATCHING.

AND PLEASE DON'T FORGET UKRAINE.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org