>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON": TURBULENT TIMES FOR SOME KEY POLITICAL FIGURES IN MASSACHUSETTS NOT USED TO TURBULENCE: GOVERNOR CHARLIE BAKER AND HIS GOOD FRIEND, FORMER BOSTON MAYOR MARTY WALSH.

PLUS TRUMPISM, HOMOPHOBIA, AND INFIGHTING IN THE STATE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

FORMER CHAIR OF THAT PARTY, JENNIFER NASSOUR, AND CHAIR OF THE NATIONAL NAACP ADVOCACY AND POLICY COMMITTEE, MICHAEL CURRY, JOIN ME ON ALL OF IT.

THEN, LATER, THE FATE OF THE MASSACHUSETTS FILM TAX CREDITS IS ONCE AGAIN UP FOR DEBATE ON BEACON HILL.

STATE SENATOR MICHAEL BARRETT AND CHRIS O'DONNELL, FROM A LOCAL FILM WORKERS UNION, WILL EACH MAKE THEIR CASE.

♪♪ >> Braude: IT'S ONLY WEDNESDAY, BUT IT'S ALREADY BEEN A ROUGH WEEK FOR A FEW KEY FIGURES IN MASSACHUSETTS POLITICS, INCLUDING FORMER BOSTON MAYOR, NOW LABOR SECRETARY, MARTY WALSH, WHO'S BEEN DRAWN INTO THE CONTROVERSY OVER THE CITY'S POLICE CHIEF FOR A DAY, DENNIS WHITE, OVER WHAT HE KNEW AND WHEN ABOUT PAST ALLEGATIONS OF ASSAULT AGAINST HIM.

WHITE, WHO'S APPEALING HIS FIRING BY ACTING MAYOR KIM JANEY, NOW SAYS HE TOLD WALSH PERSONALLY ABOUT A RESTRAINING ORDER FROM HIS EX-WIFE.

THEN THERE'S GOVERNOR CHARLIE BAKER, WHO'S BEEN FACING SIMILAR QUESTIONS ABOUT BENNETT WALSH, THE EX-SUPERINTENDENT OF THE HOLYOKE SOLDIERS' HOME, WHO'S NOW FACING CRIMINAL CHARGES OVER THE 76 VETERANS WHO DIED OF COVID AT THE HOME LAST SPRING.

AND NOW SOME STATE LAWMAKERS ARE CALLING ON THE GOVERNOR TO TESTIFY ON BEACON HILL.

FINALLY, THERE'S THE STATE REPUBLICAN PARTY, WHICH IS CERTAINLY NOT THE PARTY OF THE VERY POPULAR REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR BUT RATHER THE VERY UNPOPULAR -- AT LEAST IN MASSACHUSETTS -- FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP.

AND NOW MANY IN THE MASSACHUSETTS G.O.P.

ARE CALLING ON A MEMBER OF THEIR STATE COMMITTEE, DEBBIE MARTELL, TO RESIGN OVER ANTI-GAY COMMENTS SHE MADE ABOUT REPUBLICAN CONGRESSIONAL CANDIDATE JEFFREY SOSSA-PAQUETTE, WRITING IN AN E-MAIL THAT SHE WAS "SICKENED" TO LEARN HE IS MARRIED TO A MAN AND HAS ADOPTED CHILDREN.

JOINING ME TO DISCUSS ALL OF THIS ARE JENNIFER NASSOUR, FORMER CHAIR OF THE MASSACHUSETTS REPUBLICAN PARTY, NOW THE FOUNDER AND PRESIDENT OF THE POCKETBOOK PROJECT; AND MICHAEL CURRY, THE PRESIDENT AND C.E.O.

OF THE MASSACHUSETTS LEAGUE OF COMMUNITY HEALTH CENTERS AND CHAIR OF THE NATIONAL NAACP ADVOCACY AND POLICY COMMITTEE.

>> Braude: MICHAEL, JENNIFER, GOOD TO SEE YOU BOTH.

THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

>> NICE TO BE HERE.

>> GOOD TO BE BACK.

>> Braude: JENNIFER, MARTY WALSH SAID HE KNEW NOTHING ABOUT THIS, ONE OF HIS POLICE COMMISSIONERS SAYS WALSH KNEW NOTHING ABOUT THIS, BUT THERE ARE SWORN AFFIDAVITS FROM THE FORMER POLICE COMMISSIONER SAYING THERE IS NO WAY HE DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT THIS, AND NOW WE HAVE A VIDEO AFFIDAVIT, SWORN AGAIN, FROM DENNIS WHITE HIMSELF SAYING HE HAD REPEATED CONVERSATIONS WITH THE MAYOR AT THE TIME, MARTY WALSH, ABOUT THE RESTRAINING ORDER THAT WAS TAKEN OUT AGAINST HIM, HE SAYS INAPPROPRIATELY.

WHAT DOES THIS DO TO WALSH'S REPUTATION, AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, WHAT DOES IT DO FOR HIS JOB SECURITY IN THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION?

>> THERE ARE TWO THINGS AT PLAY.

IT IS A CASE OF HE SAID/HE SAID.

I UNDERSTAND THESE ARE SWORN AFFIDAVITS, AND WE HOPE THAT PEOPLE ARE RECALLING THINGS ACCURATELY, BUT I THINK THERE IS MORE OF A P.R.

CAMPAIGN GOING ON HERE, AND HE DOES NOT WANT TO LOSE HIS JOB, SO HE LOSES JOB SECURITY.

HOWEVER, IF THESE CONVERSATIONS ACTUALLY DID TAKE PLACE, THEN I THINK, YOU KNOW, FORMER MAYOR WALSH'S POSITION ON THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS DEFINITELY GOING TOB TO BE IN PERIL BECAUSE I CAN'T SEE HOW THE NEW PRESIDENT BIDEN OF THE UNITED STATES WOULD WANT TO KEEP ON SOMEONE WHO WOULD HAVE THIS BAGGAGE RIGHT BEHIND HIM.

>> Braude: JENNIFER SAID, MICHAEL, IT IS A HE SAID/HE SAID, BUT TO PARAPHRASE WHAT RACHEL ROLLINS SAID, IT IS NOT QUITE THAT BECAUSE TWO OF THE HE SAIDS, WILLIE AND DENNIS, ARE WORN AFTER AFFIDAVITS, AS OPPOSED TO UNSWORN FROM BILL EVANS AND MARTY WALSH.

ARE THEY TO BE MORE BELIEVED IN THIS BALANCING ACT HERE?

>> YEAH.

I THINK TO JENNIFER'S POINT, IT IS A DEGREE OF HE SAID/HE SAID, EVEN WITH THE SWORN AFFIDAVITS.

I'M FRIENDS WITH COMMISSIONER WALSH, AND HE SWEARS BY DENNIS WHITE AS A SOLID LEADER.

BUT I'M ALSO FRIENDS WITH MAYOR WALSH.

SO I THINK YOU'RE IN A SITUATION WHERE PEOPLE ARE RECALLING DIFFERENT FACTS ABOUT WHAT THEY KNEW AND WHAT TRANSPIRED IN THAT PROCESS OF APPOINTING HIM COMMISSIONER.

WHAT IT REALLY COMES DOWN TO, JIM, YOU'RE STILL ACCOUNTABLE -- YOU'RE STILL ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE PEOPLE YOU HIRE AND THEIR ACTIONS AND VETTING THEM PROPERLY.

I THINK THAT'S WHERE THE FAILURE HAPPENED HERE.

WE, HISTORICALLY IN THE CITY, ALWAYS FAILED TO PROPERLY VET CANDIDATES.

THAT IS NOT NEW IN THE BOSTON POLICE DEPARTMENT.

AND IT SHOULDN'T BE TAGGED FOR A BLACK CANDIDATE WHO IS UP FOR THAT POSITION.

QUITE FRANKLY, THERE HAVE BEEN MANY WHITE MALE OFFICERS WITH JUST AS MUCH BAG GOUGE GATCH ASBAGGAGE THAT WE FIND IN THIS CASE.

>> Braude: "LET'S BE CLEAR, I'M A BLACK MAN WHO HAS BEEN ACCUSED FALSELY OF CRIMES.

I'VE NOT YET BEEN GIVEN A FAIR TRIAL."

AS YOU KNOW, THAT IS A PATTERN THAT HAS BEEN REPEATED IN COUNTRY FOR CENTURIES.

I BELIEVE IT WILL BE BAD FOR BOSTON IF THAT PATTERN IS REPEATED HERE WITH ME."

IS THIS IN ANY WAY ABOUT RACE?

IT IS, APPARENTLY, ACCORDING TO DEN DENNIS WHITE.

>> I CAN TELL YOU THERE IS A DISPARITY IN HOW CITY GOVERNMENTS, AND PARTICULARLY THE BOSTON POLICE DEPARTMENTS, DEAL WITH DISCIPLINE.

I'VE HAD THAT CONVERSATION WITH FORMER COMMISSIONER EVANS.

I'VE HAD THAT CONVERSATION WITH COMMISSIONER DAVIS BEFOREHAND.

THERE IS A CHALLENGE WHERE ENTRENCHED WHITE MALES IN THE BOSTON POLICE DEPARTMENT HAVE HAD A REALLY OPEN SEASON ON BAD BEHAVIOR AND COULD MAINTAIN STLIER JOBS.

THEIR JOBS.

BUT YOU BLACK OFFICERS WILL TELL YOU, IF YOU DID 2% OF THAT, YOU WOULD GET FIRED IF YOU'RE A BLACK OFFICER -- >> Braude: MICHAEL, IF I CAN INTERRUPT YOU, THERE IS CONCLUSIVE RESEARCH TO SHOW, AS PER YOUR COMMENT, WHEN IT COMES TO RANK-AND-FILE OFFICERS, BLACK OFFICERS ARE DISCIPLINED MORE AND REWARDED LES.

THE QUESTION I'M ASKING YOU IS: IS THE TERMINATION OF DEN NIT WHITE DENNIS WHITE BASED ON THE COLOR OF HIS SKIN?

>> I CAN'T MAKE AN ACCUSATION AND SAY YOU DID SOMETHING WITHOUT -- OFFICER WHITE HAS A POINT.

YOU CAN'T BE THE SCARLET LETTER AND YOU SAY SOMEBODY DID SOMETHING AND ALL OF A SUDDEN THEY'RE FLOGGED OR LYNCHED BECAUSE OF THAT.

HE SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT AS A PERSON, AS AN OFFICER -- HE SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO A DUE PROCESS, AND A PROCESS TO PLAY OUT WHETHER HE SHOULD OR SHOULD NOT HAVE THE POSITION.

>> Braude: LET'S MOVE TO GOVERNOR BAKER, A MEMBER OF YOUR PARTY.

I WANT TO READ YOU AN EXCERPT FROM THE SPOTLIGHT SERIES ON THE WHOLE NIGHTMARE AT THE HOLYOKE SOLDIERS' HOME.

BAKER SAID HE HAD BEEN APPOINTED BY THE BOARD OF TRUSTEES, WHICH REALLY WANTED BENNETT TO HAVE THAT JOB.

THE FIRST TIME I EVER MET HIM OR TALKED TO HIM WAS WHEN WE SWORE HIM IN.

THAT WASN'T TRUE, WRITES THE GLOBE.

DISPUTE WALSH'S LACK OF HEALTH CARE MANAGEMENT EXPERIENCE, A SPOKESMAN RECENTLY CONFIRMED."

THERE IS NO QUESTION THIS WALSH WAS WILDLY UNQUALIFIED FOR A REALLY IMPORTANT JOB.

WHEN ASKED THE OTHER DAY ABOUT THIS PORTION OF THE SPOTLIGHT REPORT, CHARLIE BAKER'S RESPONSE WAS, "I FORGOT.

IT WAS A BRIEF CONVERSATION," MEANING THAT 30-MINUTE CONVERSATION.

DOES THAT CUT IT?

DOES IT COVER BAKER ON THIS ISSUE OF MISREPRESENTATION, WHETHER IT WAS CONSCIOUS OR OTHERWISE, BEFORE HIS DEALINGS WITH WALSH BEFORE THE HIRING?

>> NO, I DON'T THINK IT DOES.

HOWEVER, THIS IS KIND OF THE SAME SITUATION THAT IS GOING ON IN THE CITY, WHICH IS THAT THERE IS SO MANY LAYERS OF BUREAUCRACY IN STATE GOVERNMENT AND CITY GOVERNMENT, THAT, NUMBER ONE, I THINK IT IS REALLY DIFFICULT TO EXPECT OUR LEADERS OF THE CITY AND OF THE STATE TO REMEMBER EVERY SINGLE PERSON THEY MET WITH.

I THINK ALSO THERE ARE SO MANY OTHER PEOPLE THAT ARE IN THIS VETTING PROCESS.

IF IT IS NOT THE GOVERNOR OR THE MAYOR DOING THE VETTING, IT IS THE PEOPLE WAY BELOW THEM.

SO BY THE TIME THE PERSON GETS UP THE RANK, THEIR EXPECTATION IS ALL OF THE HOMEWORK HAS BEEN DONE.

ALL OF THE DUE DILIGENCE HAS BEEN DONE.

SO BY THE TIME BENNETT WALSH GOT UP TO THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE, HE HAD A 30-MINUTE MEETING WITH HIM.

OF COURSE HE CAN'T REMEMBER WHAT HAPPENED FOUR OR FIVE YEARS AGO.

SINCE THEN, WE'VE BEEN THROUGH SNOWSTORMS AND COVID AND COVID AND COVID AND BUSINESSES SHUTTING.

THIS IS A TRAGEDY AND NOT SOMETHING TO LOOK LIGHTLY AT ALL.

76 PEOPLE WHO GAVE THEIR LIVES IN SERVICE TO THE COUNTRY, SHOULD TOTALLY NOT BE OVERSHADOWED.

BUT IN THE CHAIN OF BUREAUCRACY, SOMEONE ELSE DOWN THE LINE SHOULD HAVE BEEN DOING THEIR HOMEWORK.

AND THERE ARE MANY SOMEONES WHO HAVE SHOULD HAVE BEEN DOING THEIR HOMEWORK.

>> Braude: SPEAKING OF "DOWN THE LINE," ALSO IN THIS SERIES, MICHAEL CURRY, IT IS MADE PRETTY CLEAR THAT THE FORMER SECRETARY OF VETERANS AFFAIRS TOOK THE FALL FOR THIS, THAT THE DIRECT SUPERVISION ON MUCH OF THE TIME THAT WALSH WAS THERE WAS NOT BY THAT SECRETARY, BUT BY THE SECRETARY OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES, MARY LOU SUDDERS.

IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE INVESTIGATOR WENT OUT OF HIS WAY TO IGNORE CERTAIN FACTS, PEARLSTEIN, TO INSULATE HER.

CHARLIE BAKER, ONE OF HIS CALLING CARDS IS HIS ABILITY TO MANAGE EXTRAORDINARILY WELL.

SHOULD HE BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR THE BEHAVIOR OF SECRETARY SUDDERS SHEAR?

>> ULTIMATELY, IF ANY OF US TAKE PUBLIC OFFICE -- AND I KNOW, JIM, YOU'VE BEEN IN THIS SPACE BEFORE.

YOU TAKE A POSITION, YOU BECOME AN ELECTED OFFICIAL, AND YOU HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY THAT COMES WITH THAT.

YOU'LL MAKE A LOT OF GREAT DECISIONS, AND YOU WILL ABSOLUTELY HIRE SOME PEOPLE THAT ARE BAD CHOICES.

RIGHT?

WE ALL DO IT AS AN EMPLOYER.

WE'VE ALL HAD THAT EXPERIENCE.

BUT TO BE ACCOUNTABLE FOR IT IS WHAT MATTERS.

TO SAY THIS WAS A BAD HIRE, THAT THIS WAS MISHANDLED, AND EVEN THE G.P.

H. CANDLE A H. SCANDAL A FEW YEARS AGO REMINDS ME OF THIS.

WE SHOULD SAY WE MISHANDLED IT.

SECRETARY SUDDERS HAS DONE A TREMENDOUS JOB ON THE PUBLIC HEALTH SIDE, BUT SHE HAS TO BE ACCOUNTABLE, AS WE ALL DO, FOR WHATEVER THE FAILURES ARE.

AND THIS MAY BE ONE OF THE THINGS SHE HAS TO BE ACCOUNTABLE FOR.

IT COMES WITH A LEADERSHIP ROLE.

>> Braude: I WANT TO SWITCH A PARTY YOU USED TO RUN.

A COMMITTEE WOMAN, WHO'S RESIGNATION HAS BEEN CALLED FOR BY PEOPLE FROM THE GOVERNOR ON DOWN SAID SHE WAS SICKENED WHEN SHE HEARD THAT A CANDIDATE FOR CONGRESS, A REPUBLICAN, A GAY MAN, WAS NOT ONLY MARRIED BUT HAD ADOPTED CHILDREN.

THAT MAN, JEFFREY SOSSA-PAQUETTE, REACHED OUT TO THE CHAIR OF THE STATE REPUBLICAN PARTY LIONS.

>> HIS ANSWER WAS HE WASN'T GOING TO GET INVOLVED IN PARTY POLITICS.

AND I SAID IN PARTY POLITICS, YOU'RE THE CHAIRMAN OF THE MASS G.O.P.

ARE YOU NOT SUPPOSED TO BE RUNNING THE PARTY?

>> Braude: THE CHAIR OF THE G.O.P., FOR THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW, IS ALSO SOMEONE WHO SAYS THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN FROM DONALD TRUMP.

LIONS HAS REFUSED TO COMMENT.

IT SEEMS TO ME THAT DOING CRICKETS ON A SITUATION LIKE THIS ESSENTIALLY REMOVES YOUR RIGHT TO HOLD THE JOB AS PARTY CHAIR.

AM I OVERREACTING TO THIS, OR NO, JENNIFER?

>> YOU'RE TOTALLY RIGHT.

I THINK THAT ALL THAT JIM LIONS IS DOING AT THIS POINT IS MAKING THE MASS BE OBSOLETE.

NO ONE CAN TAKE IT SERIOUSLY.

I WANT TO REACH OUT TO THIS CANDIDATE BECAUSE I GIVE HIM A LOT OF CREDIT FOR BOG OUT THERE.

IF I WAS CHAIR, I WOULD HAVE KICKED THIS STATE COMMITTEE WOMAN OFF.

YOU CAN'T KICK THEM OFF, BUT YOU CAN REPRIMAND THEM.

AND YOU CAN HAVE A CONVERSATION.

THIS BEHAVIOR IS COMPLETELY NOT APPROPRIATE.

IT IS ONLY APPROPRIATE IF WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO DO IS SHRINK THE AMOUNT.

RIGHT NOW IN MASSACHUSETTS, 10% OF REGISTERED VOTERS ARE ACTUALLY REPUBLICAN, AND THAT NUMBER CONTINUES TO SHRINK.

SO JIM LIONS LEFT THE SMALLEST PARTY IN THE COUNTRY, HE SHOULD KEEP GOING DOWN THIS PATH, COMMITTEE MEMBERS WHO WANT TO HOLD ON TO A CLAIM THAT ISN'T TRUE, THAT WANT TO KICK PEOPLE OUT OF THE PARTY THAT AREN'T PURISTS.

THEY WOULD LIKE TO GET RID OF GOVERNOR BAKER.

THEY WOULD LIKE TO MAKE SURE THAT, YOU KNOW, EVERYONE IS MARRIED TO A MAN OR A WOMAN, THAT KIDS ARE ONLY WITH THE PEOPLE WHO THEY THINK THEY SHOULD BE WITH.

I MEAN, WE CAN GO DOWN THE LINE.

BUT AS A SINGLE MOTHER, RAISING MY KIDS, I WOULD HAVE (indiscernable).

AND SO IF YOU'RE GOING TO KICK OUT PEOPLE LIKE MYSELF, AND PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR A LONG TIME BECAUSE THEY DON'T LIKE THE WAY THAT WE CONDUCT OUR PERSONAL LIFE, THEN THEY SHOULD JUST PACK UP THEIR BAGS AND GO HOME.

BUT AT THIS POINT, I HAVE NOTHING ELSE TO SAY ABOUT JIM LIONS.

HE REALLY NEEDS TO OWN UP TO THIS.

HE NEEDS TO APOLOGIZE TO HIS CANDIDATE.

>> Braude: UNFORTUNATELY, I ONLY HAVE 15 SECONDS.

>> AMEN.

>> Braude: IS THAT A ONE WORD RESPONSE?

THAT'S GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME.

>> THAT'S ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

CRAZY HAS MOVED INTO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HERE AND ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

>> Braude: JENNIFER NASSOUR, GOOD TO SEE YOU, AND MICHAEL CURRY, GREAT TO SEE YOU AS WELL.

THANKS TO BOTH OF YOU.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING US.

>> Braude: NEXT UP, FOR THE PAST 15 YEARS, THE STATE HAS OFFERED TAX INCENTIVES FOR FILMMAKERS WHO SHOOT THEIR PROJECTS IN MASSACHUSETTS.

THAT INCLUDES A 25% PAYROLL TAX CREDIT ON PRODUCTIONS THAT SPEND MORE THAN $50,000 IN THE STATE, PLUS A SALES TAX EXEMPTION AND A 25% CREDIT ON PRODUCTION EXPENSES FOR PRODUCTIONS THAT SHOOT AT LEAST HALF THEIR PROJECT OR SPEND MORE THAN HALF THEIR BUDGET HERE.

THE PROGRAM COSTS THE STATE BETWEEN $50 MILLION AND $80 MILLION A YEAR.

AND SINCE FIRST TAKING EFFECT IN 2006, THE CREDITS HAVE SURVIVED REPEATED ATTEMPTS TO ELIMINATE THEM, INCLUDING FROM GOVERNOR CHARLIE BAKER.

BUT THEY'RE SET TO EXPIRE AT THE END OF NEXT YEAR.

IN APRIL THE STATE'S HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES VOTED UNANIMOUSLY TO MAKE THEM PERMANENT.

BUT SOME IN THE SENATE AREN'T SO SURE, INCLUDING STATE SENATOR MICHAEL BARRETT, WHO JOINS ME NOW, ALONG WITH CHRIS O'DONNELL, BUSINESS MANAGER FOR I.A.T.S.E.

LOCAL 481, WHICH REPRESENTS NEW ENGLAND FILM AND TV WORKERS.

HE'S IN FAVOR OF MAKING THE CREDITS PERMANENT.

AND BEFORE WE START, I SHOULD NOTE: SOME GBH PROJECTS BENEFIT FROM THESE INCENTIVES.

>> Braude: CHRIS AND SENATOR, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANKS.

>> GLAD TO BE HERE.

>> Braude: CHRIS, LET ME START WITH YOU.

WHY SHOULD THESE BE MADE PERMANENT?

>> WELL, LOOK, THE PROGRAM HAS BEEN WORKING FOR THE LAST 15 YEARS.

AND IT HAS DONE EXACTLY WHAT IT IS INTENDED TO DO, WHICH WAS TO ATTRACT WELL OVER 270 PRODUCTIONS, CREATE THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF JOBS, AND REALLY ENCOURAGE TENS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN INVESTMENTS IN BUSINESSES THAT NOW PROVIDE GOODS AND SERVICES TO THE INDUSTRY THAT DIDN'T EXIST FIVE, 10 YEARS AGO.

AND THOSE BUSINESSES ARE READY TO MAKE THE NEXT LEVEL OF INVESTMENT.

AND THEY CAN'T DO THAT UNLESS THEY HAVE A GOOD, SOLID RUNWAY TO MAKE THOSE INVESTMENTS, WHETHER IT IS IN INFRASTRUCTURE OR EQUIPMENT OR HIRING NEW WORKERS.

THEY'RE READY TO DO THAT.

AND FOR THE WORKFORCE THAT I REPRESENT, THERE IS A NEW PERIOD OF GROWTH THAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN IN THIS INDUSTRY.

AND TO SEND THE MESSAGE TO HOLLYWOOD AND TO THE PEOPLE WHO WORK HERE, AND THE PRODUCERS WHO ARE SPENDING THE MONEY HERE, THAT WE'RE OPEN FOR BUSINESS FOR THE LONG-TERM WILL ONLY ENCOURAGE THAT GROWTH EVEN MORE.

>> Braude: SENATOR, AS I MENTIONED A MINUTE AGO, THE SENATOR IS PROPOSING A SUNSET AND A NARROWING OF ELIGIBLE, BUT CHRIS SAYS THE LAW IS DOING EXACTLY WHAT IT IS INTENDED TO DO.

IS IT?

>> THE SENATE'S POSITION, JIM, IS NOT THAT THERE IS NO BENEFIT.

WHAT WE'RE STRUGGLING WITH IS THE COST/BENEFIT TRADEOFF.

WE DO HAVE THE DATA, WHICH WE DIDN'T HAVE BEFORE.

WE HAVE 10 YEARS OF DATA, A GOOD DECADE, WHY WHICH TO EVALUATE THESE TAX BREAKS.

IN 2016, THE YEAR MOST RECENTLY THAT WE HAVE, 277 NET NEW JOBS CREATED FOR MASSACHUSETTS AT A COST OF, WELL, ABOUT $30 MILLION IN TAX BREAKS.

SO $30 MILLION IN TAX BREAKS, 277 FDEs, AND THIS IS AN ECONOMY THAT HAS 3.5 MILLION JOBS, AND THAT'S .0001% OF THE STATE ECONOMY AND WORKFORCE, AND IT IS QUITE A BIT OF MONEY.

>> Braude: IT IS NOT JUST SENATOR BARRETT AND HIS COLLEAGUES, BUT SOMETHING CALLED THE TAX EXPENDITURE REVENUE COMMISSION, WHICH HAS THE AUDITOR AND THE STRAIGHT TREASURER, AND OTHERS, ISSUED A DETERMINATION ON TAX BREAKS IN THE STATE, AND THEY CONCLUDED ON THIS ONE THAT THEY SOMEWHERE BETWEEN STRONGLY AND SOMEWHAT DISAGREED THAT THE EXPENSE JUSTIFIED THE COST, AND THERE IS A GUY THAT NO ONE HAS EVER ACCUSED OF BEING ANTI-BUSINESS, NAMELY CHARLIE BAKER, WHO ISN'T CRAZY ABOUT THIS, EITHER, CHRIS.

ARE THEY ALL WRONG?

>> YES.

FIRST LETS LOOK AT THE TAX EXPENDITURE REVIEW COMMISSION.

THAT DATA AS THE SENATOR CORRECTLY POINTED OUT IS A PERIOD OF 2006 TO 2016.

THEY'RE ACTING ON DATA THAT IS FIVE YEARS OLD.

AND IT IS SIGNIFICANT BECAUSE SOMETHING HAPPENED IN 2017, FIVE YEARS AGO.

FOR THE FIRST TIME MASSACHUSETTS SAW EPSODIC STREAMING SERIES COME TO MASSACHUSETTS.

AND SINCE THEN, WE'VE SEEN SEVEN OR EIGHT EPISODIC SERIES COME.

AND THE DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE ACKNOWLEDGED THE VALUE OF THAT TYPE OF PRODUCTION.

WHY?

BECAUSE THEY EMPLOY MORE PEOPLE, MORE LOCAL PEOPLE, AND THEY GENERATE THE KIND OF JOB GROWTH AND THE KIND OF INVESTMENT IN THE INDUSTRY THAT THE STATE WANTS.

>> Braude: CHRIS, DO YOU QUARREL WITH THE NUMBERS THAT THE CREATION OF EVERY JOB IS COSTING TAXPAYERS ROUGHLY 100 GRAND?

OR YOU DON'T BUY THAT?

>> I DO.

THAT NUMBER IS BASED ON OLD, FIVE-YEAR-OLD DATA FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE THAT GROSSLY INFLATES THE VALUE -- >> Braude: YOU DON'T THINK GOVERNOR BAKER AND THE HEAD OF D.O.R., AND THE TREASURER AND THE AUDITOR KNOW THAT FIVE YEARS HAVE PASSED AND THEY SHOULD BE JUDGING THIS ON THE MERITS OF TODAY?

>> THEY CHOSE NOT TO.

>> Braude: MICHAEL BARRETT, IF I MAY, EVERY SINGLE FELLOW DEMOCRAT, EVERY SINGLE ONE IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, NOT TO MENTION THE 30 REPUBLICANS, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM THOUGHT MAKING THIS PERMANENT WAS A GOOD IDEA, ESSENTIALLY ENDORSING WHAT CHRIS IS SAYING HERE.

EVERY ONE OF THEM IS WRONG?

>> IT'S NOT A MATTER OF WRONG.

REMEMBER, THE SENATE'S POSITION, JIM, ISN'T THAT THE OTHER SIDE IS WRONG.

OUR POSITION IS NOT THAT THERE IS NO BENEFIT.

WHAT WE TAKE A LOOK AT IS THE COST/BENEFIT TRADEOFF AND IT IS HORRIBLE.

THIS IS MORE THAN A TAX BREAK, JIM, AS YOU KNOW.

THIS IS UNIQUE.

THESE TAX CREDITS, SO-CALLED, ARE REFUNDABLE AND TRANSFERABLE.

WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT HELPING THE ARTS WRITE DOWN THEIR COSTS IN MASSACHUSETTS.

THE MOVIE FOLKS WHO COME INTO THE STATE BRIEFLY HAVE VERY LITTLE TAX LIABILITY.

WHAT THEY GET IS A GIFT.

WE GIVE THEM A TAX CREDIT THAT THEY TURN AROUND BECAUSE THEY DON'T NEED IT -- THEY DON'T NEED IT TO LOWER THEIR COSTS IN MASSACHUSETTS, SO THEY TURN AROUND AND SELL IT TO RICH INDIVIDUAL TAXPAYERS, WHO NEED IT IN ORDER TO REDUCE THEIR LIABILITY FOR STATE TAXES.

IT IS THE TRANSFERABILITY THAT IS TOXIC.

WE'RE NOT TRYING TO ABOLISH SOMETHING.

WE'RE TRYING TO REFORM SOMETHING.

>> Braude: THE SUNSET PROVISION -- I USED TO DO A LITTLE TAX WORK ON BEACON HILL A CENTURY AGE --AGO -- HAS THERE EVER BEEN A TAX BREAK THAT -- >> WE HAVE RECOMMENDED IN THE SENATE BUDGET THREE TAX BREAKS BE TERMINATED IN THIS -- >> Braude: I'M NOT ASKING RECOMMENDATION.

I'M ASKING HAS THERE EVER BEEN ONE TERMINATED AFTER A SUNSET PROVISION -- >> YOU AND I ARE AND THE SAME PAGE.

I THINK EVERY TAX LOOPHOLE SHOULD BE SUNSETED.

THE LOBBIES ARE STRONG, THEY GET ENTRENCHED.

I'M NOT GIVING UP.

I'M OPTIMISTIC THAT PEOPLE ARE GETTING SENSITIVE TO THE LOSS OF MONIES.

THIS ONE IS THE WORST.

THIS ONE IS THE WORST.

277 JOBS, ALL BUT THE MOVIE COMPANIES DON'T NEED THE MONEY AND SO THEY SELL THE CREDITS TO BILLIONAIRES.

THAT TRANSFERABILITY AND REFUNDABILITY -- ENDING IT IS ONE OF THE REFORMS THE SENATE IS LOOKING FOR.

>> Braude: I ONLY HAVE 45 SECONDS LEFT, CHRIS, EVEN IF YOU'RE RIGHT THEY SHOULD BE ENTITLED TO A CREDIT BECAUSE OF THE JOB CREATION AND THE TRICKLE-DOWN IMPACT, WHY SHOULD THEY BE ABLE TO SELL THESE CREDITS TO WEALTHY TAXPAYERS WHO CAN THEN USE IT TO REDUCE THEIR TAX LIABILITY.

AND ALL I HAVE IS 30 SECONDS?

>> YOU GET RID OF THE TRANSFERABILITY, YOU'VE GUTTED THE PROGRAM.

MUCH OF THE PRODUCTION COMPANIES MAY NOT HAVE A TAX LIABILITY IN THE STATE OF MASSACHUSETTS.

THE POINT THAT NEEDS TO BE MADE IS THAT THIS IDEA THAT THE SENATE BUDGET IS MODEST IN HOW IT CHANGES THE PROGRAM IS FALSE.

>> Braude: QUICKLY.

>> I'LL -- >> Braude: CHRIS, FINISH YOUR THOUGHT.

15 SECONDS EACH.

[Simultaneous talking] >> Braude: CHRIS FIRST.

>> THEIR PROPOSAL WILL AFFECTIVELY KILL THE PROGRAM BECAUSE IT WILL PREVENT LARGER PRODUCTIONS FROM COMING TO MASSACHUSETTS, LIKE FEATURE FILMS, AND THOSE ARE THE ENGINES OF GROWTH.

>> Braude: YOU'VE GOT THE LAST 15 SECONDS.

>> GBH, YOU MENTIONED THEY'RE THE BENEFICIARY OF THE CREDIT.

YOU'RE BASED IN MASSACHUSETTS.

WE'RE DOING SOMETHING TO ALTER THAT.

YOU'RE GOING TO REMAIN HERE, EVEN IF WE CURTAIL THIS CREDIT A LITTLE ON THE MARGINS.

AND WE ARE TALKING ABOUT REFORM AND NOT ABOLITION.

YOU CANNOT LET MULTI-BILLIONAIRES ACCEPT THESE CREDITS -- >> Braude: SENATOR BARRETT AND CHRIS O'DONNELL, THIS IS HELPFUL TO ME AND I HOPE WE'LL HAVE A CHANCE TO CONTINUE IT.

>>> THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, BUT COME BACK TOMORROW.

STATE HOUSE STAFFERS ARE SPEAKING OUT ABOUT LOW PAY AND INCREASINGLY DIFFICULT WORKING CONDITIONS DURING THE PANDEMIC AFTER A RECENT SURVEY FOUND 90% OF WORKERS FELT THEY WEREN'T BEING PAID ADEQUATELY, AND ALMOST ONE IN SIX REPORTED BEING FOOD INSECURE WHILE WORKING ON BEACON HILL.

ALL OF THAT AND MORE, TOMORROW AT 7:00.

THANKS FOR WATCHING.

STAY SAFE AND STAY TUNED NEXT FOR A LOOK BACK AT HOW ONE HIGH SCHOOL VICE PRINCIPAL HAS TRIED TO KEEP HIS STUDENTS ON TRACK THROUGH THE PANDEMIC FROM OUR ONGOING GBH NEWS SERIES, "COVID AND THE CLASSROOM."

♪♪ >> WHAT SHOULD WE DO?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

BECAUSE A LOT OF KIDS ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT GOING BACK.

BECAUSE A LOT OF KIDS DON'T WANT TO GO BACK, LIKE, EVERY DAY.

>> IN A YEAR WHEN EDUCATION HAS BEEN DISRUPTED SO DRAMATICALLY, McCARTHY ARGUES THIS MOMENT OF TRANSITION SHOULD ALSO BE ABOUT CHANGING THE POWER DYNAMICS AROUND EDUCATION.

TO FOCUS LESS ON RULES, LIKE ATTENDANCE REQUIREMENT AND MORE ON WHAT STUDENTS HAVE TO SAY.

>> I'M WORRIED THAT KIDS ARE GOING TO GET ISOLATED EVEN MORE BECAUSE NO ONE IS LISTENING.

WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO DO A LOT OF BIG EARS WHEN THEY COME BACK.

>> Reporter: PLAY IT SMART, HE SAYS, AND KIDS WILL NOT ONLY FIND A WAY TO GET BACK ON TRACK BUT POTENTIALLY TURN AROUND WHAT HAS BEEN A LOSING GAME INTO A WIN.

[LAUGHTER] >> Reporter: CHRISTI