TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>>> WE JUST WANT TO HEAR HIS VOICE AND MAKE SURE HE'S OKAY BECAUSE WE'RE IN HELL SINCE THE DAY THIS HAPPENED.

>> HUNDREDS OF MIGRANTS ARE STILL MISSING AFTER THEIR BOAT CAPSIZED IN WATERS OFF THE GREEK COAST.

I ASK THE CEO OF THE INTERNATIONAL RESCUE COMMITTEE, DAVID MILIBAND, HOW WE CAN STOP PEOPLE DYING IN SEARCH OF A BETTER LIFE.

>>> THEN -- >> WE NOW HAVE UNDERWATER SEARCH CAPABILITY ON SCENE.

>> THE RACE TO FIND A MISSING SUB BEFORE ITS OXYGEN SUPPLY RUNS OUT.

>>> ALSO AHEAD, NAVIGATING THE NEW WORLD ORDER.

>> DIRECT ENGAGEMENT AND SUSTAINED COMMUNICATION AT SENIOR LEVELS IS THE BESTS WAY TO RESPONSIBLY MANAGE OUR DIFFERENCES AND ENSURE THAT COMPETITION DOES NOT VEER INTO CONFLICT.

>> I ASK THE FORMER CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS, MIKE MULLEN, AND THE FORMER U.S.

AMBASSADOR TO SOUTH KOREA HARRY B. HARRIS, HOW THE U.S. SHOULD ENGAGE WITH A MORE CONFIDENT CHINA.

>>> PLUS, THE HEAD OF THE WORLD TRADE ORGANIZATION NGOZI OKONJO-IWEALA TELLS ME WHY WE SHOULDN'T ABANDON GLOBALIZATION.

>>> AND -- >> WE ARE IN MANY WAYS FACING AN EPIDEMIC OF HOPELESSNESS WITH OUR YOUNG PEOPLE.

>> CHANGING THE WAY WE SEE NATIVE AMERICANS, PHOTOGRAPHER MATIKA WILBUR TELLS HARI SREENIVASAN WHY IT'S VITAL TO CHALLENGE NATIVE AMERICAN >>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY FUND, SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, CANDACE KING WEIR, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, THE FAMILY FOUND DAY OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER, SETON J. MELVIN, BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, THE WE TRY TO LI LIVE IN THE MOMENT, TO NOT MISS WHOOS RIGHT IN FRONT OF US.

AT MUTUAL OF AMERICA, WE BELIEVE TAKING CARE OF TOMORROW CAN HELP YOU MAKE THE MOST OF TODAY.

MUTUAL OF AMERICA FINANCIAL GROUP, RETIREMENT SERVICES AND INVESTMENTS.

CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

ON THIS WORLD REFUGEE DAY, WE ARE MORE ACUTELY AWARE THAN EVER OF THE RISKS PEOPLE ARE FORCED TO TAKE IN SEARCH OF A BETTER LIFE.

A LIFE BEYOND WAR, PERSECUTION, CLIMATE CHANGE, AND POVERTY.

THE U.N.

ESTIMATES THAT TODAY 110 MILLION PEOPLE ARE DISPLACED WORLDWIDE, MORE THAN AT ANY OTHER TIME SINCE THE SECOND WORLD WAR.

RIGHT NOW HUNDREDS OF MIGRANTS ARE STILL MISSING AFTER THEIR OVERCROWDED FISHING VESSEL CAPSIZED OFF THE GREEK COAST.

THE EU SAYS IT MAY BE THE WORST TRAGEDY THE MEDITERRANEAN SEA HAS EVER HAD AS FAMILIES WAIT FOR NEWS OF THEIR MISSING LOVED ONES, THE GREEK COAST GUARD AND THE GREEK GOVERNMENT ARE UNDER INTENSE PRESSURE.

AND A COURT CASE IS UNDERWAY IN ATHENS WHERE NINE MEN ARE ACCUSED OF PEOPLE SMUGGLING.

MEANWHILE, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE ANTONY BLINKEN IS HERE IN COUNTERPART, JAMES CLEVERLY, HAVE BEEN AT A CENTER WHICH IS SET UP TO HELP UKRAINIAN REFUGEES WHO FLED RUSSIA'S INVASION.

DAVID MILIBAND IS THE CEO OF THE INTERNATIONAL RESCUE COMMITTEE.

HE WAS BRITISH FOREIGN SECRETARY FROM 2007 TO '10, AND HE'S ALSO THE SON OF JEWISH REFUGEES E. DAVID MILIBAND, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE, GREAT TO BE WITH YOU.

>> SO YOU KNOW, ON THE ACTUAL ANNIVERSARY, IT'S OFTEN RARE TO BE FACED WITH SUCH A STARK REMINDER AND ONGOING CRISIS SUCH AS THE ONE IN THE SEA OFF THE GREEK COAST, AND I WONDER, YOU KNOW, WHAT YOU CAN TELL US BECAUSE YOU'VE WRITTEN ABOUT THE CRUELTY OF HAVING NO MIGRATION POLICY AND KEEP SEEING THESE DEATHS.

WHAT ARE YOU THINKING RIGHT NOW?

>> WELL, OBVIOUSLY ONE'S FIRST THOUGHT IS WITH THE PEOPLE WHO ARE ON THE BOAT, THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE LOVED ONES ON THE BOAT AS AN INSTANT HUMAN REACTION THAT COMES AS YOU THINK ABOUT THE ABSOLUTE HORROR SHOW IN THE MEDITERRANEAN.

BUT THE SECOND THOUGHT, THE RATIONAL THOUGHT, IS THAT THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN DESPERATE PEOPLE HAVE NO OFFICIAL REGULATED, LEGAL ROUTE TO FIND THEIR WAY TO SAFETY.

AS YOU REPORTED IN THE INTRO, THE VAST BULK OF THE REFUGEE POPULATION THAT PART OF THE 110 MILLION FIGURE THAT YOU MENTIONED, ABOUT 40 MILLION OR SO REFUGEES AND ASYLUM SEEKERS, 40 TO 45 MILLION, HALF OF THEM COME FROM AFGHANISTAN, SYRIA, AND FROM UKRAINE, AND WE KNOW THAT REPORTS FROM THIS CAPSIZED BOAT EMPHASIZE AFGHAN AND SYRIA AS COUNTRIES OF ORIGIN.

IF THERE IS NO LEGAL WAY FOR PEOPLE TO FIND SAFETY, THEY WILL PUT THEIR LIVES AND THEIR CASH IN THE HANDS OF PEOPLE AND SO IT'S THE ABSENCE OF POLICY, COHERENT MIGRATION POLICY.

TO SAY THAT CRUELTY AND CRUEL RHETORIC ARE ACTUALLY THE BEST RECRUITING SERGEANT FOR THE PEOPLE SMUGGLERS, IT'S COHERENT POLICY, MORE HUMANE AND COHERENT POLICY THAT'S THE WAY TO PUT THEM OUT OF BUSINESS.

>> TELL ME WHAT YOU MEAN BY CRUELTY.

DO YOU MEAN BY OUR PUBLIC SPACE?

DO YOU MEAN BY GOVERNMENTS?

DO YOU MEAN BY THE PRESS?

>> I MEAN, EUROPE HAS NO EFFECTIVE REFUGEE RESETTLEMENT SCHEME FOR THE MOST VULNERABLE REFUGEES THAT THE U.N. IDENTIFIES.

IN THE U.S.

THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS BUILDING IT UP TO 125,000 PEOPLE A YEAR, PEOPLE WHO ARE WIDOWS, PEOPLE WHO ARE VICTIMS OF TORTURE.

THAT DOESN'T EXIST IN EUROPE.

SECONDLY, THE ASYLUM PROCESSING SYSTEM ACROSS EUROPE IS A PATCHWORK AT THE MOMENT.

THE UK GOVERNMENT IS TRYING TO MAKE EVEN CLAIMING ASYLUM ILLEGAL.

SO ON THE ASYLUM FRONT YOU'VE ALSO GOT THIS SITUATION.

THIRDLY, THE AID AND SUPPORT FOR REFUGEES, COUNTRIES IN NORTH AFRICA, COUNTRIES IN THE MIDDLE EAST, COUNTRIES LIKE JORDAN AND LEBANON, THAT IS HAPHAZARD AND INSUFFICIENT.

SO YOU'VE GOT THE ABSENCE OF SAFE AND EFFECTIVE LEGAL PATHWAYS FOR PEOPLE TO REGISTER THEIR CLAIMS.

THE LOSS OF HOPE IS WHAT MAKES PEOPLE THINK THE ONLY WAY TO SAVE MY OWN LIFE OR TO SAVE THE LIFE OF MY KIDS IS TO PUT MY FUTURE IN THE HANDS OF THE PEOPLE SMUGGLERS, THAT'S THE DEADLY TRADE THAT IS BEING FED BY THE ABSENCE OF POLICY.

IT'S PRACTICAL, AND PEOPLE FOLLOW THE SIGNALS VERY CLEARLY.

>> SO IN THAT REGARD, LET ME JUST QUOTE TO YOU WHAT THE EU EXHIBITIONER FOR HOME AFFAIRS HAS SAID, BLAMING THE SMUGGLERS SAYING THOSE SMUGGLERS WHO PUT THESE PEOPLE ON THESE BOATS, THEY'RE NOT SENDING THEM TO EUROPE.

THEY'RE SENDING THEM TO DEATH.

THIS IS WHAT THEY'RE DOING, AND IT'S ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY TO PREVENT IT.

YOUR STATEMENT ALONG WITH AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL, HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH AND OTHERS HAVE SAID, THE EU SHOULD ABANDON THE NARRATIVE OF BLAMING SHIPWRECKS ON SMUGGLERS AND STOP SEEING SOLUTIONS SOLELY IN THE DISMANTLING OF CRIMINAL NETWORKS.

AGAIN, WHAT IS GOING TO MAKE THEM DO IT?

AND I SAY THIS AND I ASK IT BECAUSE IF IT WAS A FEW YEARS AGO, IF YOU REMEMBER, EU COMMISSIONERS, ITALIAN PRIME MINISTERS, OTHERS WOULD RUSH TO THE -- YOU KNOW, TO THE TRAGEDY AREA.

THEY'D EXPRESS THEIR SYMPATHY AND THEIR SADNESS.

NOW IT'S SORT OF DESENSITIZED.

NO EU OFFICIAL OR RATHER GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL HAS REALLY SAID ANYTHING ABOUT THIS.

>> WELL, TO BE FAIR TO THE EU COMMISSIONER, I MET HER IN BRUSSELS LAST MONTH.

I MET HER ON PREVIOUS OCCASIONS.

SHE'S BEEN WAGING A SOMETIMES LONELY BATTLE FOR HER THREE AND A HALF YEARS IN OFFICE TO GET A REFUGEE AND ASYLUM PACT AGREED ACROSS THE EUROPEAN UNION, AND SO SHE'S THE COMMISSIONER FOR MIGRATION POLICY, BUT OBVIOUSLY NATIONAL GOVERNMENTS ARE THE ULTIMATE DECISION-MAKERS IN THIS AREA, AND SHE'S BEEN TRYING TO GET THIS PACT AGREED.

NOW, SHE'S MADE SOME PROGRESS, BUT WE'RE STILL A LONG WAY FROM HAVING A COHERENT EUROPE-WIDE APPROACH THAT WILL OFFER THE SAFE AND LEGAL PATHWAYS THAT GIVE PEOPLE THE SENSE OF HOPE AND THEN REDUCES THE INCENTIVE TO PUT THEMSELVES IN THE HANDS OF THE PEOPLE SMUGGLERS.

OBVIOUSLY THE U.S.

VERSION OF THIS IS A REAL ONE TOO BECAUSE WE'VE HAD THE TRUMP YEARS WHERE THERE WAS AN EFFECTIVE BAN ON ALL FORMS OF REFUGEE STATUS, AND THAT -- WHAT HAPPENED THEN?

SOUTH OF THE BORDER YOU ACTUALLY HAD CHAOS.

THAT'S WHY I WRITE THAT CRUELTY LEADS TO CHAOS BECAUSE WHILE THE POLICIES THAT SAY WE'RE GOING TO SEAL THE BORDER ARE RHETORIC AND ARE SOMETIMES TRANSLATED INTO POLICY, AND THEY DON'T ACTUALLY BRING ORDER.

THEY DON'T ACTUALLY END THE CHAOS BECAUSE OF THIS -- THESE ACTORS, THE SMUGGLING OPPORTUNITY THAT'S CREATED WHEN THERE ARE THESE LEGAL ROUTES TO GIVE PEOPLE A CHANCE TO START A NEW LIFE.

>> SO YOU MENTIONED JUST A LITTLE EARLIER ABOUT HOW THIS COUNTRY, THE UK, YOUR OWN COUNTRY, IS TRYING TO MAKE THE LEGITIMATE CLAIMING OF ASYLUM OR PETITION FOR ASYLUM ILLEGAL.

BUT IT DOESN'T MATCH WITH WHAT PEOPLE THINK.

YOUR NEW DATA RELEASED TODAY SHOWS THAT 65% OF THE UK PUBLIC THINK IT'S IMPORTANT THAT THE RIGHT TO SEEK ASYLUM IS MAINTAINED IN THIS COUNTRY.

YOU KNOW, GOING BACK TO YOURSELF BEING FOREIGN SECRETARY.

YOU KNOW, PUT ON THAT HAT AGAIN AND TELL ME WHAT YOU WOULD DO AS A BRITISH GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL OR EUROPEAN HEADS OF GOVERNMENT TO DO WHAT YOU'RE SAYING NOW.

THEY NEED A COHERENT, PROPER, YOU KNOW, MIGRATION POLICY.

WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE?

A, B, C. >> YEAH, WELL, THEY NEED A REFUGEE, AN ASYLUM POLICY.

SO A, THEY NEED A REFUGEE RESETTLEMENT ROUTE.

AT THE MOMENT, BRITAIN IS NOT PLAYING ITS PART IN THE INTERNATIONAL DRIVE TO OFFER REFUGEE RESETTLEMENT, A PLANNED, ORGANIZED TRANSFER OF PEOPLE IDENTIFIED AS THE MOST VULNERABLE BY THE UNITED PARLIAMENT, THERE WERE MORE PEOPLE COMING IN ON THAT ROUTE, BUT IT WAS STILL PRETTY LOW.

LAST YEAR'S FIGURES OR THE YEAR BEFORE, SIX PEOPLE PER PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY.

NO ONE'S GOING TO TELL ME THAT'S OVERWHELMING THE UK.

SO, A, REFUGEE RESETTLEMENT.

B, CLEAR THE BACKLOG.

AT THE MOMENT, THERE ARE 190,000 PEOPLE WAITING TO HAVE THEIR ASYLUM CLAIM ADMINISTERED IN THE UK.

FAST PROCESSING, FAIR PROCESSING IS ALSO HUMANITARIAN PROCESSING.

IT MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL TO HAVE PEOPLE WAITING FOR MONTHS OR IN THE U.S. CASE FOR YEARS TO HAVE THEIR CLAIM HEARD.

THIRD, ABSOLUTELY VITAL PART OF ANY EFFECTIVE PACKAGE IS TO HAVE COHERENT COLLABORATION, COOPERATION ACROSS THE ENGLISH CHANNEL.

BRITAIN IS AN ISLAND, BUT THE EUROPEAN CONTINENT IS A VITAL PART OF ANY EFFECTIVE MIGRATION MANAGEMENT POLICY FOR THE UNITED KINGDOM.

AT THE MOMENT, THE UK IS PAYING FRANCE, BUT ONLY ON THE POLICING AND SECURITY.

WHEN WE WERE MEMBERS OF THE EUROPEAN UNION, WE COULD RETURN ASYLUM SEEKERS TO THE CONTINENT OF EUROPE BECAUSE WE ARE PART OF THE EU RULES.

THAT DOESN'T EXIST NOW POST-PROTECTION.

BREXIT.

THE EUROPEAN UNION IS A VITAL PART.

THERE'S A FINAL PART THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT.

INFORMATION ALSO DISEMPOWERS.

WE HAVE A GLOBAL SYSTEM CALLED SIGN POST THAT IS THEN LOCALLY DEVELOPED TO AFTERADVICE AND INFORMATION TO REFUGEES ADMINISTERED BY REFUGEES AND DISPLACED PEOPLE.

THE INFORMATION UNDERCUTS THE PEOPLE SMUGGLERS TOO.

JUST ONE FINAL POINT, IF I MAY, CHRISTIANE, THANK YOU FOR LETTING ME EXPLAIN THE A, B, C AND THE D AS WELL.

I WANT TO GO BACK TO WHAT YOU SAID IN THE VERY BEGINNING.

YOU SAID IT WAS MY DATA, IT'S INTERNATIONAL RESCUE COMMITTEE'S RECENT POLL, WHICH IS PUBLISHED TODAY, WHICH SHOWS AS YOU SAY 65% OF BRITISH PEOPLE WANT TO HAVE A PROPERLY ADMINISTERED ASYLUM POLICY.

THAT DOESN'T MEAN EVERYONE CAN COME TO THE UK.

THAT WOULD BE A NONSENSE.

IT DOES MEAN THAT IF YOU DO COME, YOU CAN HAVE YOUR CLAIM FAIRLY ADMINISTERED.

BRITAIN HELPED CREATE REFUGEE CONVENTION IN 1951.

THE IDEA THAT WE'RE ABANDONING IT NOW IS SHAMEFUL.

>> SO FOR THE LAST QUESTION, WE KNOW THAT THIS IS GOING TO GET WORSE.

CLIMATE CHANGE IS GOING TO FORCE PEOPLE, THE STATE OF THE ECONOMY AROUND THE WORLD IS GOING TO CONTINUE TO PUSH PEOPLE OUT.

WHAT DO YOU SEE DOWN THE ROAD?

I MEAN, IF THIS DOESN'T GET RATIONALIZED AS YOU'VE JUST LAID OUT, WHAT THEN?

>> WELL, THE FIRST THING IS WE DON'T SURRENDER.

WE DON'T GIVE UP ON DIPLOMACY.

IT'S ABSOLUTELY VITAL THAT, FOR EXAMPLE, THE MOST RECENT SPILLAGE OF PEOPLE HAS BEEN THE MOST RECENT EXODUS OF PEOPLE HAVE BEEN FROM SUDAN, 60,000 SUDANESE ARE NOW IN CHAD, THE INTERNATIONAL COMMITTEE ORGANIZATION HELP PEOPLE THERE.

LET'S NOT GIVE UP ON DIPLOMACY.

SECONDLY, WE'VE GOT TO HAVE FAIR BURDEN SHARING AROUND THE WORLD.

RESPONSIBILITY SHARING.

IF ONLY A FEW COUNTRIES DO THIS, THERE IS NO REFUGEE RESETTLEMENT SCHEME IN THE GULF.

CHINA IS NOT PART OF THIS SYSTEM.

IT'S GOT TO BE A PROPER GLOBAL SYSTEM.

WE'VE GOT A GLOBAL RIGHT TO REFUGEE STATUS, BUT NOT GLOBAL CONTRIBUTION.

IT'S POOR COUNTRIES, POOR AND LOWER MIDDLE INCOME COUNTRIES WHO ARE PUTTING THE RICHER COUNTRIES TO SHAME, AND THAT'S WHAT NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED AS WELL.

>> ON THIS REFUGEE DAY, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US, DAVID MILIBAND FROM THE IRC.

THANK YOU.

>>> MEANWHILE, THE RACE IS ON TO FIND A MISSING SUB BEFORE ITS OXYGEN SUPPLY RUNS OUT.

THE VESSEL LOST COMMUNICATIONS ON SUNDAY, LESS THAN TWO HOURS AFTER IT BEGAN ITS DESCENT TO THE WRECK OF THE TITANIC, WHICH LIES SOME 13,000 FEET BELOW AT THE BOTTOM OF THE NORTH ATLANTIC OCEAN.

THE FIVE PEOPLE ON BOARD ARE A BRITISH BILLIONAIRE, A FRENCH DIVER, AND A PAKISTANI FATHER AND SON.

WE'VE ALSO NOW LEARNED THAT THE FOUNDER AND CEO OF OCEAN GATE IS ALSO AMONG THE MISSING CREW.

EARLIER I SPOKE WITH TWO RETIRED ADMIRALS, MIKE MULLEN WAS CHAIRMAN OF THE U.S. JOINT HARRIS JR. WAS U.S.

AMBASSADOR TO SOUTH KOREA.

WE INVITED THEM ON THE PROGRAM TO TALK ABOUT U.S., CHINA RELATIONS AND THE TENSIONS OVER TAIWAN.

I BEGAN WITH A QUESTION ABOUT THE DEEP SEA SEARCH FOR THIS MISSING SUB.

>> ADMIRALS, WELCOME TO OUR PROGRAM.

WE WANT TO GET INTO THE VERY IMPORTANT ISSUES REGARDING U.S./CHINA RELATIONS, BUT FIRST I WANT TO TAP INTO YOUR EXPERTISE WITH THE NEWS OF THIS SUBMERSIBLE.

ADMIRAL MULLEN, YOU KNOW, WHAT MUST BE GOING ON UNDER THERE?

WHAT MUST BE THE CONDITION IN THAT SUBMERSIBLE, WHICH APPARENTLY HAD ENOUGH OXYGEN PERHAPS UNTIL THURSDAY.

>> WELL, I THINK OBVIOUSLY THEY WILL BE TRYING TO CONSERVE AS MUCH OXYGEN AS POSSIBLE.

I'M NOT INTIMATELY FAMILIAR WITH THE SPECIFIC CAPABILITIES OF THE SUBMERSIBLE.

WHAT I WORRIED ABOUT INITIALLY WAS POSSIBLY THEY HAD JUST HAD PROBLEMS WITH THEIR ASSUME AFTER A RELATIVELY SHORT PERIOD OF TIME WITH NO COMMUNICATIONS, THEY WOULD ACTUALLY COME BACK TO THE SURFACE TO MAKE SURE THEY HAD THAT THROUGHOUT THE VOYAGE.

AND TIME IS INCREDIBLY RELEVANT AND OBVIOUSLY IN A WAY THE ENEMY.

SO THE LONGER IT TAKES, THE LESS LIKELY THAT, YOU KNOW, A POSITIVE OUTCOME WILL OCCUR.

I AM SURE, I MEAN, YOU'VE SEEN THE U.S. COAST GUARD IN CHARGE OF THIS, THE U.S. NAVY IS FLYING AIRPLANES.

I'M SURE THERE WAS -- THERE ARE MANY, MANY PEOPLE MOVING AS MANY ASSETS IN PLACE AS POSSIBLE TO TRY TO FIND IT AS SOON AS POSSIBLE, BUT IT'S VERY DEEP AND IT'S A VERY TOUGH, YOU KNOW, SUBMERSIBLE TO MAKE CONTACT WITH, CERTAINLY AT THIS POINT.

>> ADMIRAL HARRIS, I GUESS MANY PEOPLE ARE ASKING THIS IS THE -- YOU KNOW, IT'S 2023.

ISN'T THERE, YOU KNOW, A SOUND OR SOME KIND OF, YOU KNOW, SIGNAL THAT THEY COULD BE HOW COME THAT SOMETHING THAT DIFFICULT TO MAKE IS NOW IN COMMUNE KA DOE, I GUESS, WITH ALL THE TECHNOLOGY WE HAVE AVAILABLE?

>> SO IT'S A TWO-WAY STREET.

AS ADMIRAL MULLEN SAID, AND I'M WITH HIM ON THIS.

I DON'T KNOW THE CAPABILITIES OF THE SUBMERSIBLE.

I MEAN, IT'S A PRIVATE SUBMERSIBLE.

IT'S NOT BUILT BY ANY GOVERNMENT, SO I DON'T KNOW THE COMMUNICATIONS CAPABILITIES THAT'S RESONANT IN THE SUBMERSIBLE, WHAT EMERGENCY CAPABILITIES IT HAS.

THE FACT THAT IT HASN'T SURFACED ON ITS OWN IS INDICATIVE OF A PROBLEM.

SURELY THE FOLKS THAT ARE IN THE SUBMERSIBLE THAT ARE IN CHARGE OF IT KNOW THAT THERE'S A PROBLEM.

AND AS FAR AS FINDING IT, I MEAN, IT'S -- TO ME IT'S OBVIOUSLY IN THE LOCATION, IN THE PROXIMITY OF THE TITANIC, SO PEOPLE KNOW ROUGHLY WHERE IT IS.

BUT BECAUSE IT'S PROBABLY NOT MAKING NOISE.

IT'S PROBABLY NOT UNDER ITS OWN LOUD PROPULSION, TO FIND IT ACOUSTICALLY WOULD BE A CHALLENGE.

>> AND OF COURSE IT'S SO DARK AND THERE'S THOUSANDS OF POUNDS OF PRESSURE DOWN THERE.

WE UNDERSTAND IT'S AROUND 13,000 FEET DOWN.

ALL RIGHT, WELL, LOOK, THANK YOU FOR YOUR EXPERTISE.

LET ME NOW TALK ABOUT WHAT WE NEED TO DISCUSS, AND THAT IS THE VERY SERIOUS RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND CHINA.

BOTH THE CHINESE PRESIDENT AND THE U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE HAVE SPOKEN POSITIVELY ABOUT A CONSTRUCTIVE VISIT.

BEFORE I PLAY ANY SOUNDBITES, ADMIRAL MULLEN DO YOU SEE A CHANGE IN TONE SINCE THE VISIT?

WHAT IS THE MOST YOU HAD HOPED FOR THIS ACTUAL VISIT AND MEETING?

>> WELL, I THINK THE MOST I HAD ONE, THE SECRETARY OF STATE WOULD BE WELL-RECEIVED.

TWO, THAT HE ACTUALLY WOULD BE ABLE TO GET TO SEE PRESIDENT XI, AND TO REALLY TAKE THIS -- IT'S ALMOST A FIRST STEP BECAUSE THE RELATIONSHIP IS IN SUCH BAD SHAPE.

AND OBVIOUSLY THIS COMES ON THE HEELS OF SECRETARY BLINKEN WHO CANCELED HIS VISIT WHEN THE BALLOON INCIDENT OCCURRED HERE.

SO IN THAT REGARD, I THINK IT'S POSITIVE.

I DIDN'T EXPECT A WHOLE LOT OF SPECIFICS TO COME OUT OF THIS VISIT, AND CERTAINLY THERE WILL BE SOME BEHIND THE SCENES.

I ACTUALLY THINK THE FENTANYL ISSUE IS A HUGE ISSUE AND A VERY POSITIVE THING.

WE REALLY NEED TO WORK TOGETHER ON THAT AS AN EXAMPLE, BUT THERE ARE MANY MORE THINGS THAT NEED TO BE DISCUSSED AND CHANGED, I THINK, TO MOVE THIS RELATIONSHIP TO A CONSTRUCTIVE RELATIONSHIP THAT IS NOT TRYING TO DEFEAT EACH OTHER OR IN ANY WAY CONTINUE THE DETERIORATION, WHICH HAS OCCURRED OVER THE LAST MANY YEARS.

>> OKAY.

SO THOSE ARE REALLY THE IMPORTANT ISSUES RIGHT NOW, REESTABLISHING COMMUNICATIONS, AND TRYING TO PULL BACK FROM THE BRINK OF SOME KIND OF ACCIDENTAL OR DELIBERATE MILITARY CONFRONTATION.

LET ME PLAY FOR YOU BOTH THE SOUNDBITE THAT -- FROM SECRETARY BLINKEN AFTER HIS TRIP.

>> I CAME TO BEIJING TO STRENGTHEN HIGH LEVEL CHALLENGE OF COMMUNICATION TO MAKE CLEAR OUR POSITIONS AND INTENTIONS IN AREAS OF DISAGREEMENT AND TO EXPLORE AREAS WHERE WE MIGHT WORK TOGETHER.

WHEN OUR INTERESTS ALIGN ON SHARED TRANSNATIONAL CHALLENGES AND WE DID ALL OF THAT.

>> OKAY.

THAT'S HIS SIDE.

NOW PRESIDENT XI JINPING ISSUED A STATEMENT ALSO SAYING CHINA RESPECTS THE U.S.

INTERESTS AND THAT IT WON'T SEEK TO CHALLENGE AND REPLACE THE U.S. BY THE SAME TOKEN, THE U.S. SHOULD RESPECT CHINA AND NOT UNDERMINE ITS LEGITIMATE RIGHTS AND INTERESTS.

SO ADMIRAL HARRIS, AND IN VIEW OF THE REPORT THAT YOU'VE BOTH JUST, YOU KNOW, CHAIRED AND PUT OUT FROM THE COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS ABOUT TAIWAN, HOW DO YOU READ XI JINPING'S STATEMENT THAT IT RESPECTS THE U.S., NOT TRYING TO REPLACE IT, BUT BY THE WAY, THE U.S.

NEEDS TO RESPECT ITS LEGITIMATE RIGHTS?

>> YEAH, SO THERE'S A COUPLE OF THINGS THAT ARE, IN MY OPINION EMBEDDED IN XI JINPING'S REMARKS.

BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING THAT HAPPENED AS ADMIRAL MULLEN SAID IS ENGAGEMENTS AND COMMUNICATIONS.

WE HAVEN'T HAD THAT IN TOO LONG A PERIOD.

THE FACT THAT THE SECRETARY WENT THERE, MET WITH THE RIGHT PEOPLE, AND THERE WAS A POSITIVE OUTCOME IS GOOD NEWS INDEED.

I'M A LITTLE CONCERNED, I HEARD THIS MORNING ON THE NEWS THAT XI JINPING HAS DECIDED TO NOT ALLOW MILITARY TO MILITARY COMMUNICATIONS AT THIS TIME.

THAT'S WHERE THE RUBBER MEETS THE ROAD, IF YOU WILL.

THAT'S WHERE SHIPS COME IN CLOSE PROXIMITY TO OTHER SHIPS, AIRCRAFT IN CLOSE PROXIMITY TO OTHER AIRCRAFT, AND WE MUST HAVE A WAY TO DEESCALATE THOSE TENSIONS ON THE HIGH SEAS AND IN THE AIR SPACE ABOVE THOSE SEAS.

AND THE MILL TO MILL COMMUNICATIONS IS THE NORMAL 21st CENTURY NATION STATE WAY TO DIFFUSE THOSE ISSUES.

AND IF WE'RE NOT ALLOWED TO DO THAT, THEN THOSE INSTANCES COULD TURN INTO SOMETHING BAD.

SO I'M WORRIED ABOUT THAT.

>> AND YES, AND MAYBE, WHO KNOWS, MAYBE THEY'RE JUST DOLING IT OUT PIECEMEAL.

I DON'T KNOW.

I'D BE INTERESTED IN WHY YOU DIDN'T THINK THEY ALLOWED MIL TO MIL, AND WE KNOW THEIR SECRETARY OF DEFENSE DIDN'T HAVE A PROPER MEETING, MAYBE A SIDELINE HANDSHAKE WITH AUSTIN WHEN THEY YOUR REPORT IS ENTITLED U.S. TAIWAN RELATIONS IN A NEW ERA RESPONDING TO A MORE ASSERTIVE CHINA, AND MIKE MULLEN, YOU SAY THAT IT'S VITAL FOR THE U.S. TO DETER CHINA FROM FORCIBLY UNIFYING TAIWAN.

HOW WHEN YOU ALSO SAY IN THE REPORT U.S. MILITARY GAPS MEAN THAT THE UNITED STATES CANNOT ASSUME THAT IT WOULD BE ABLE TO DECISIVELY INTERVENE ON TAIWAN'S BEHALF.

HOW DO YOU THEN STOP THIS UNIFICATION?

>> I THINK WHAT WE SAY IN THE REPORT IS THAT THE UNITED STATES NEEDS TO MAKE THE TAIWAN CONTINGENCY ITS PACING CHALLENGE, ITS PRIORITY, AND THAT INCLUDES TRAINING AND EQUIPPING IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE LAW AND SUPPORTING THE CONTINUED EVOLUTION OF THE TAIWANESE MILITARY.

THEY HAVE NOT ALWAYS BEEN AT THE TOP OF THE HEAP, IF YOU WILL, IN TERMS OF PRIORITY.

THAT'S ONE ANSWER TO HOW THIS GETS DONE.

THE OTHER IS -- I MEAN, THE MAINTAINING THE ONE CHINA POLICY, WHICH IS SUPPORTING PEACEFUL REUNIFICATION, AND THAT'S REALLY CRITICAL AS WELL.

WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN THE LAST DECADES IS, YOU KNOW, THE CONTEXT HAS CHANGED.

THE STAKES ARE GOING UP, THE RISK IS GETTING HIGHER, AND WE NEED TO -- WE NEED TO STRENGTHEN DETERRENCE FROM THE UNITED STATES' PERSPECTIVE IN ORDER TO BALANCE THAT RISK.

>> ADMIRAL HARRIS, YOU'RE A FORMER AMBASSADOR IN THE REGION TO SOUTH KOREA AND AMERICA'S ALLIES IN THAT REGION ARE ALSO CONCERNED ABOUT, AS ADMIRAL MULLEN DESCRIBED, THE INCREASED ASSERTIVENESS, THE CHANGE IN CONTEXT SINCE XI JINPING'S SUCCESSION TO POWER MORE THAN TEN YEARS AGO.

DO YOU THINK ARE FROM WHAT YOU KNOW NOW THAT THE CHINESE WANT TO BY HOOK OR BY CROOK AS THEY SAY ALL THE TIME, EVEN MILITARILY, WHICH WOULD MEAN CHALLENGING THE UNITED STATES, TAKE BACK TAIWAN?

>> I DO BELIEVE THAT THAT IS CHINA'S ULTIMATE GOAL, AND THEY HAVE BEEN VERY CLEAR, YOU KNOW, WE TALKED ABOUT STRATEGIC AMBIGUITY OR STRATEGIC CLARITY.

THE CHINESE HAVE BEEN CRYSTAL CLEAR THAT THEIR INTENT IS TO TAKE TAIWAN BACK, PEACEFULLY IS PREFERABLE, BUT MILITARILY IF NECESSARY.

SO THE U.S.'S NEW INDO-PACIFIC STRATEGY AND OUR NEW NATIONAL SECURITY STRATEGY SPECIFICALLY SUPPORTS TAIWAN DECIDING ITS OWN FUTURE.

I MEAN, WHAT A CONCEPT, RIGHT?

AND SO THAT'S WHY WE ARE AT ODDS WITH THE PRC, THE PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA OVER TAIWAN.

>> AND CAN I ASK YOU BOTH, THIS IS SUCH A FRAUGHT AND IMPORTANT, AND AS YOU MENTIONED, POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS RELATIONSHIP.

AND YET, THERE ARE MANY IN CONGRESS, PARTICULARLY REPUBLICANS, WHO ARE ALREADY CRITICIZING THE SECRETARY OF TO TRY TO THAW THESE RELATIONS, CRITICIZE, YOU KNOW, BIDEN'S CHINA POLICY AS, YOU KNOW, TRYING TO MAKE HIM EVEN MORE HAWKISH.

I MEAN, WHERE DO YOU STAND, ADMIRAL MULLEN, ON THE NECESSITY FOR DIPLOMACY, AS WE'VE JUST SEEN FROM THE SECRETARY OF STATE?

>> I THINK IT HAS TO LEAD THE RESOLUTION OF THE ISSUE.

I THINK DESPITE THE POLITICS THAT ARE INVOLVED IN THIS, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS BEEN PRETTY STRINGENT WITH RESPECT TO CHINA, PARTICULARLY WITH RESPECT TO HIGH END TECHNOLOGIES AND THE ECONOMY AND IN A WAY VERY CONSISTENT WITH WHAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION LAID OUT.

I THINK THE U.S. HAS TREMENDOUS LEVERAGE IN GREAT PART BECAUSE OF THE ECONOMIC RELATIONSHIP THAT WE HAVE, YOU KNOW, WITH CHINA IN TERMS OF PRODUCING AN OUTCOME, WHICH WOULD BE PEACEFUL IN THE LONG RUN.

IT'S A VERY -- IT'S NOT TOTALLY INTRACTABLE PROBLEM, BUT THE LEADERS, PRESIDENT XI AND PRESIDENT BIDEN HAVE TO LEAD THIS, AND IT'S GETTING TOUGHER AND TOUGHER TO SOLVE.

SO THE FIRST STEP THAT SECRETARY BLINKEN TOOK AND THAT PRESIDENT XI TOOK IN THE LAST DAY OR SO I THINK IS REALLY CRITICAL AND HOPEFULLY THAT WILL LEAD TO A MEETING OF THE MINDS BETWEEN BIDEN AND XI LATER ON THIS YEAR.

I THINK IT'S IN NOVEMBER FOR THE APEC SUMMIT, WHICH IS IN SAN FRANCISCO I THINK IN NOVEMBER.

SO IT'S TO EVERYBODY'S INTERESTS TO MOVE THIS IN A CONSTRUCTIVE AND PEACEFUL DIRECTION.

>> LET ME JUST SWERVE A LITTLE BIT OVER TO ANOTHER, YOU KNOW, RELATED AT LEAST TANGENTIALLY CONFLICT, THAT IS CHINA'S GREAT ALLY RUSSIA AND ITS CONTINUED WAR ON UKRAINE.

ADMIRAL HARRIS, WHEN YOU LOOK AT IT, WHAT DO YOU SEE, FIRST OF ALL, EVEN MILITARILY RIGHT NOW WITH THE COUNTEROFFENSIVE, BUT WHAT ARE THE STAKES IF, AS THE PRESIDENT SAYS AND NATO SAYS, RUSSIA ISN'T STOPPED IN ITS TRACKS?

>> WELL, THE IMPLICATIONS ARE ENORMOUS FOR THE WORLD.

MORE SO IF YOU ARE A SMALL COUNTRY NEXT TO A LARGE AUTOCRATIC COUNTRY, WHICH DESCRIBES UKRAINE AND RUSSIA.

IT DESCRIBES TAIWAN AND CHINA, AND MANY OTHER COUNTRIES IN THE INDO-PACIFIC WHO WORRY ABOUT A REVISIONIST PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA.

I THINK WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THE ISSUE OF SUPPORTING UKRAINE.

THERE ARE VERY FEW BIPARTISAN ISSUES IN WASHINGTON THESE DAYS, AS YOU KNOW WELL.

OUR NATIONAL CONCERN FOR CHINA IS ONE OF THOSE, AND OUR NATIONAL CONCERN ABOUT RUSSIA'S INVASION ILLEGAL, IMMORAL INVASION OF A SOVEREIGN INDEPENDENT UKRAINE IS ANOTHER BIPARTISAN ISSUE.

>> ADMIRAL MULLEN, ADMIRAL HARRIS, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED FOR JOINING ME.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

AND FOR NEARLY 30 YEARS THE WORLD TRADE ORGANIZATION HAS OILED THE GEARS OF GLOBALIZATION, BUT GEOPOLITICAL TENSIONS BETWEEN THE WEST AND CHINA AS WE'VE JUST BEEN DISCUSSING ALONG WITH THE WAR IN UKRAINE, THE MIGRANT AND THE CLIMATE CRISES AND THE RISING COST OF LIVING HAVE MADE NAVIGATING THE NEW WORLD ORDER MORE COMPLICATED THAN EVER.

WILL THE FRAYED TRADE TIES THAT BIND OUR ECONOMIES SURVIVE, OR ARE WE HEADED INTO A NEW ERA OF DEGLOBALIZATION.

THE W.T.O.

SAYS THAT ITS ROLE AS GLOBAL DEAL MAKER IS MORE VITAL THAN EVER, AND ITS DIRECTOR GENERAL, NGOZI OKONJO-IWEALA, IS JOINING US NOW.

WELCOME BACK DIRECTOR GENERAL TO THE PROGRAM.

SO YOU JUST HEARD THAT CONVERSATION, YOU KNOW, ABOUT TRADE AND ALL THE TENSIONS CERTAINLY THE UNITED STATES.

WE DIDN'T REALLY GET INTO THE TRADE PART OF IT.

IT WAS MORE MILITARILY.

SO WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THOSE TENSIONS AND THE FACT THAT THE UNITED STATES STILL HAS A PRETTY HARD LINE TARIFF LADEN TRADE RELATIONSHIP WITH CHINA?

>> WELL, THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

IT'S A PLEASURE TO BE WITH YOU AGAIN.

LET ME START BY SAYING THAT THE TRIP BY SECRETARY BLINKEN TO CHINA IS VERY WELCOME BECAUSE ANY ATTEMPTS AT DIPLOMACY TO LOWER THE TEMPERATURE AND THE TENSIONS IS VERY HELPFUL TO US AT LEAST ON THE TRADE SIDE.

AND WE CERTAINLY FEEL THOSE TENSIONS.

I HAVE TO ADMIT THAT.

BUT THERE ARE TWO THINGS I'D LIKE TO SAY.

FIRST OF ALL, IN TERMS OF THE ACTUAL TRADE NUMBERS, WHEN WE LOOK AT THE TRADE NUMBERS FROM LAST YEAR, YOU KNOW, THE U.S. COMMERCE DEPARTMENT RELEASED NUMBERS THAT SHOWED TRADE BETWEEN CHINA AND THE U.S. AT ABOUT $690 BILLION, WHICH, YOU KNOW, IS THE PEAK WE SAW IN 2018.

IF WE LOOK AT CHINA, EU, IT'S OVER $800 BILLION.

SO IN ACTUAL NUMBERS, YOU KNOW, WE DON'T YET SEE THE EFFECTS OF THE -- LET'S SAY THE DECOUPLING AND THE TENSION THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT.

BUT I WILL HASTEN TO SAY THAT THESE NUMBERS ARE BASED ON PAST INVESTMENT PATTERNS.

>> RIGHT.

>> AND NEW INVESTMENT PATTERNS MAY LEAD TO NEW TRADE FLOWS, AND WE'RE ALREADY SEEING SOME SIGNS OF THAT.

>> YOU JUST SAID DECOUPLING, AND IN FACT, IT APPEARS THAT THE EU COMMISSION PRESIDENT URSALA VON DER LEYEN HAS USED THE WORD DE-RISKING, AND THAT IS TRANSLATED AND TRAVELED ACROSS THE ATLANTIC, AND THAT'S WHAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION ARE TALKING ABOUT RIGHT NOW REGARDING CHINA, AND MAYBE ANY OTHER, YOU KNOW, THREATENING CHALLENGES THEY FACE, THAT IT'S DE-RISKING RATHER THAN DECOUPLING.

AT THE WORLD TRADE ORGANIZATION, HOW DO YOU EVEN DEFINE THAT DIFFERENCE?

WHAT DOES IT MEAN?

>> WELL, THE WAY WE LOOK AT IT, CHRISTIANE, IS THAT WE WELCOME THE DE-RISKING, RATHER THAN THE DECOUPLING BECAUSE THE DECOUPLING FRAGMENTATION WILL BE VERY COSTLY FOR THE WORLD.

WE'VE ACTUALLY CALCULATED A 5% LOSS IN REAL GDP IN THE LONG-TERM.

SO THE RISK CAN MEAN TO US THAT SOME SUPPLY CHAINS ARE TOO CONCENTRATED AND WHAT WE SAW DURING THE PANDEMIC, THAT TEN COUNTRIES PRODUCED 80% OF THE WORLD'S VACCINES, THIS DOES NOT BUILD GLOBAL RESILIENCE, SO THERE'S SOME ARGUMENT TO BE MADE THAT IF YOU WANT TO DE-RISK, YOU MAY WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THOSE SUPPLY CHAINS ARE MORE DIVERSIFIED.

THERE'S ALSO THE SAME THING WITH RARE EARTH MINERALS, THERE'S THE SAME THING WITH CHIPS.

SO THERE ARE SOME SECTORS AND SOME SUPPLY CHAINS YOU REALLY NEED TO DIVERSIFY THE SUPPLY CHAINS ALL OVER THE WORLD OR THE MORE COUNTRIES I WOULD SAY IN ORDER TO BUILD RESILIENCE.

BUT LET ME JUST SAY THAT IN ADDITION TO THE WORD DE-RISKING, WE WANT TO PUT ANOTHER WORD OUT THAT WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT, REGLOBALIZATION.

AND THAT IS VERY MUCH ANOTHER WAY TO INTERPRET DE-RISKING.

WHEN YOU ARE DIVERSIFYING SUPPLY CHAINS, IT SHOULDN'T ONLY BE TO NEARBY COUNTRIES OR TO FRANCE.

IT SHOULDN'T BE JUST CHINA PLUS ONE CHINA, PLUS VIETNAM OR INDONESIA, INDIA, ALTHOUGH WE LIKE THOSE.

IT SHOULD ALSO BE CHINA PLUS MOROCCO.

CHINA PLUS BRAZIL.

CHINA PLUS BANGLADESH.

CHINA PLUS SENEGAL.

OR KENYA OR RWANDA.

WE NEED TO THINK MORE BROADLY WHEN WE DIVERSIFY SUPPLY CHAINS.

I THINK THAT'S THE WAY WE CAN BUILD BETTER RESILIENCE IN THE WORLD.

>> OKAY.

ABOUT THIS, YOU'VE ACTUALLY WRITTEN RECENTLY ABOUT THIS SAYING THAT INTERNATIONAL CORPORATION INCLUDING ON TRADE IS NECESSARY TO MEET CHALLENGES IN THE GLOBAL COMMONS SUCH AS CLIMATE CHANGE, INEQUALITY, PANDEMICS, GLOBALIZATION IS NOT OVER, YOU SAY, NOR SHOULD ANYONE WISH FOR IT TO BE.

BUT NEEDS TO BE IMPROVED AND REIMAGINED FOR THE AGE AHEAD.

IS THAT WHAT YOU MEAN WHEN YOU SAY CHINA PLUS AND, YOU KNOW, ALL OF THAT?

IS THAT WHAT YOU MEAN, THAT'S HOW IT SHOULD BE REIMAGINED?

>> YES.

>> YEAH.

>> YEAH, WE SHOULD REIMAGINE GLOBALIZATION INTO SOMETHING WE CALL REGLOBALIZATION.

WE SHOULD USE THE OPPORTUNITY WE HAVE NOW TO DIVERSIFY SUPPLY CHAINS, TO SPREAD THEM TO COUNTRIES AND REGIONS THAT WERE LEFT OUT IN THE FIRST PHASE OF GLOBALIZATION.

YOU KNOW, WE LOOK AT RICH COUNTRIES.

THERE WERE REGIONS, PEOPLE WERE LEFT OUT OF THE FIRST PHASE, AND THAT'S WHY YOU HAVE A GROWTH IN POPULISM WHERE PEOPLE DON'T HAVE JOBS AND THEY'RE SITTING IN THE JOBS.

YOU NEED TO FIND A WAY TO CREATE NEW JOBS, AND WHY DON'T WE DIVERSIFY SUPPLY CHAINS TO THOSE AREAS.

THERE ARE COUNTRIES THAT DID NOT BENEFIT IN THE FIRST PHASE OF GLOBALIZATION.

MANY DEVELOPING COUNTRIES WERE LEFT OUT.

LET'S USE THIS AS AN OPPORTUNITY TO BRING THEM INTO THE GLOBAL VALUE CHAIN PROVIDED THEY HAVE THE RIGHT BUSINESS ENVIRONMENT.

AND I SUBMIT THAT MANY OF THEM DO.

>> MANY OF THEM DO, OKAY, THAT'S INTERESTING.

I MEAN, ALSO I GUESS YOU'RE DEALING WITH THE HEADWINDS THAT CONTINUE FROM INFLATION, THE FOOD INSECURITY.

A LOT OF IT DUE TO THE WAR, CLIMATE PRESSURES.

ARE THOSE -- ARE THOSE THINGS THAT YOU SEE AND YOU CAN MANAGE, OR DO YOU SEE THAT JUST, YOU KNOW, ALIENATING PEOPLE MORE FROM THE IDEA OF GLOBALIZATION AND DRIVING PEOPLE FURTHER INTO POVERTY?

>> YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, CHRISTIANE, THAT THOSE ISSUES, THE HIGH FOOD PRICES, THE HIGH YOU KNOW, ARE VERY DIFFICULT FOR PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY PEOPLE IN POOR COUNTRIES.

YOU'VE SEEN AFRICAN PRESIDENTS GO TO MOSCOW RECENTLY TO TRY AND TALK ABOUT THE IMPACT OF THE WAR IN UKRAINE ON AFRICA BECAUSE IT'S DRIVING UP FOOD PRICES.

SO THOSE THINGS ARE DIFFICULT, BUT THEY'RE NOT DUE JUST TO GLOBALIZATION.

THEY'RE ALSO DUE TO SOME OF THE THINGS WE'VE SEEN, THE PANDEMIC, THE WAR IN UKRAINE.

HOWEVER, WE MAINTAIN THAT AN OPEN TRADING SYSTEM, THE OPEN MULTILATERAL TRADING SYSTEM IS NECESSARY TO SOLVE THESE PROBLEMS.

>> RIGHT.

>> YOU KNOW, ONE IN FIVE CALORIES CONSUMED IN THE WORLD IS TRADED, SO IF YOU WANT TO MAKE SURE PEOPLE HAVE FOOD AND THAT FOOD PRICES COME DOWN, YOU'VE GOT TO HAVE AN OPEN TRADING SYSTEM.

OTHERWISE YOU WON'T BE ABLE TO ACCOMPLISH THAT.

SO THIS IS ONE OF THE REASONS WHY WE SAY THAT NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS, SUPPORTING THE KEY TO SOLVING THE FOOD CRISIS, THE CLIMATE CRISIS.

LET ME JUST SAY, CHRISTIANE, THAT WHEN YOU ARE TALKING OF SPREADING TECHNOLOGIES IN RENEWABLES AND OTHER TYPES OF LOW CARBON EMISSION TECHNOLOGIES, YOU NEED TRADE.

HOW ELSE ARE YOU GOING TO SPREAD THOSE TECHNOLOGIES?

SO WE THINK THAT THE OPEN MULTILATERAL TRADING SYSTEM IS CENTRAL TO HELPING SOLVE THE PROBLEMS OF THE GLOBAL COMMONS WE FACE TODAY.

>> I HAVE A VERY QUICK IN 15 SECONDS, CHINA GOT INTO THE W.T.O., RUSSIA GOT INTO THE W.T.O., THEY'RE BOTH, QUOTE, UNQUOTE, BENDING THE RULES.

ONE HAS INVADED A COUPLE OF COUNTRIES.

WAS IT WORTH THE RISK?

WAS IT A GAMBLE THAT BACKFIRED BRINGING THEM IN?

>> THAT'S A VERY LOADED QUESTION, CHRISTIANE.

I WOULD SAY -- I WOULD SAY NO.

THAT I THINK THE WORLD BENEFITTED FROM THE SPREAD OF GLOBALIZATION AND THE OPEN TRADING SYSTEM TO THESE COUNTRIES.

>> ALL RIGHT, WELL, I WANTED TO GET IT FROM YOU, DIRECTOR GENERAL OF THE W.T.O., NGOZI OKONJO-IWEALA.

THANK YOU.

>>> AND NOW TO ONE WOMAN'S MISSION TO PHOTOGRAPH EVERY NATIVE AMERICAN TRIBE IN THE UNITED STATES.

MATIKA WILBUR HAS SPENT A DECADE DOCUMENTING INDIGENOUS CULTURE FOR HER PHOTO BOOK PROJECT 562, AND SHE'S JOINING HARI SREENIVASAN TO DISCUSS HOW SOCIAL AND POLITICAL ISSUES ARE AFFECTING NATIVE AMERICAN LIFE.

>> CHRISTIANE, THANKS, MATIKA WILBUR, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

YOU ARE THE AUTHOR OF "PROJECT 562," AND IF I GET THIS CORRECT, THIS WAS, WHAT, BACK IN 2012 THAT YOU DECIDED TO START ON THIS ADVENTURE, NOT KNOWING REALLY HOW BIG IT WAS GOING TO BE, AND YOU HAVE TRIED TO, WHAT, CATALOG THE 562 FEDERALLY RECOGNIZED NATIVE NATIONS?

I MEAN, I THINK THAT NUMBER RIGHT THERE IS PROBABLY GOING TO BE A SHOCK TO A LOT OF PEOPLE.

SO WHAT GAVE YOU THIS INTERESTING IDEA?

>> GOOD AFTERNOON RELATIVES, MY NAME IS MATIKA WILBUR, I'M FROM THE SUN MISH AND TA LEILA TRIBES WHERE I AM COMING TO YOU TODAY FROM.

I'M THE CREATOR OF PROJECT 562, WHICH STANDS FOR THE NUMBER OF TRIBES.

WHEN I STARTED THE PROJECT, THERE ARE NOW 574, SO THAT NUMBER IS CONTENTIOUS AND ALWAYS CHANGING BASED ON THE PLENARY POWER OF CONGRESS.

SO YEAH, I IN A MASSIVE EFFORT ASK UNDERTAKING IN 2012 LEFT MY HOME AND MY FAMILY AND SOLD EVERYTHING AND HIT THE ROAD TO VISIT OVER 500 TRIBES IN WHAT IS NOW KNOWN AS THE UNITED STATES, AND I TRAVELED FOR EIGHT YEARS, WITH A GIRL, THAT'S MY RV, SHE LIKES TO BACK IT UP.

AND YEAH, WE -- WE HAD A GREAT ADVENTURE.

I WENT TO OVER 400 DIFFERENT TRIBAL COMMUNITIES, AND I, YOU KNOW, FROM THE BARING SEA TO SEMINOLE COUNTRY TO WHAT IS KNOWN AS FLORIDA.

I WENT TO EVERY STATE.

I LOGGED HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF MILES AND MADE LOTS O'FRIENDS AND RELATIVES ALONG THE WAY.

>> WHAT GAVE YOU THE INTEREST TO DO THIS?

THIS IS A BOOK OF GORGEOUS PORTRAITS, BUT IT'S MORE THAN THAT.

IT'S ALSO, YOU KNOW, THUMBNAIL SKETCH STORIES OF WHO THESE PEOPLE ARE THAT YOU'RE TAKING PHOTOS OF.

>> YEAH, WELL, YOU KNOW, ALL TOO OFTEN IN THE PUBLIC CONSCIOUSNESS, WE'VE BEEN MISREPRESENTED, RIGHT?

BOTH IN TEXTBOOKS, YOU KNOW, MOST TEXTBOOKS DON'T REPRESENT NATIVE PEOPLE IN A POST-1900 CONTEXT.

THEREFORE PEOPLE'S FIRST INTRODUCTIONS TO NATIVE IDENTITY IS EITHER THROUGH DISNEY REPRESENTATIONS LIKE POCAHONTAS WHERE PEOPLE ACTUALLY LEAVE THINKING THAT NATIVE PEOPLE CAN HEAR THE COLORS OF THE WIND.

OR YOU KNOW, FROM TALES OF WHITE MALE HEROISM, LIKE LEWIS AND CLARK WHO, YOU KNOW, SLAVE TRADE WITH SACAJAWEA, BUT WE'VE ERASED THESE TALES OF NATIVE WOMEN AND OF NATIVE PEOPLE IN GENERAL, AND WE'VE CREATED THIS AMERICAN HISTORICAL AMNESIA THAT CELEBRATES NOTIONS LIKE THANKSGIVING, WHICH WE DO EVERY YEAR INSTEAD OF TELLING THE REAL HISTORY OF WHAT HAPPENED IN THIS COUNTRY, THE STORY OF INDIGENOUS DISPOSSESSION OF LAND, OF STOLEN LABOR, YOU KNOW, FROM ENSLAVED PEOPLE FROM AFRICA, AND INSTEAD WE'VE TOLD A STORY THAT COMPLETELY DILUTES THE HORRIBLE REALITY OF NATIVE GENOCIDE.

OVER 80% OF COLLEGE KIDS BELIEVE THAT NATIVE AMERICANS ARE EXTINCT, AND THE EXTINCT NARRATIVE HAS BEEN RETOLD OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN, RIGHT?

THERE'S OVER 10 MILLION NATIVE PEOPLE IN WHAT IS NOW KNOWN AS THE UNITED STATES.

YOU KNOW, WE'VE DONE THINGS LIKE -- WE'VE BEEN A PART OF THE GROWTH OF THIS NATION.

WE'VE CONTRIBUTED TO THE COLLECTIVE CONSCIOUSNESS IN MORE WAYS THAN I CAN COUNT, AND SO MANY OF THE -- MUCH OF THE SHAPING OF THIS NATION WAS DONE IN CONCERT WITH INDIGENOUS PEOPLES, BUT THAT HAS NOT BEEN CELEBRATED.

>> I WANT TO TALK -- I'M GOING TO GO THROUGH A FEW PHOTOGRAPHS.

LET'S JUST START WITH KIND OF THE COVER HERE.

YOU'VE GOT DR. HEN YETTA MAN, A CHEYENNE MEMBER, SHE'S THE COVER OF THE BOOK.

I HAVE TO IMAGINE THAT THIS -- WRITING THIS AND TAKING THESE PHOTOS WAS ALSO AN OPPORTUNITY FOR YOU TO, WELL, KIND OF LEARN AT THE FOOT STEPS OF THESE FOLKS WHO ARE EXPERTS IN LOTS OF DIFFERENT FIELDS, AND EVEN INSIDE CONSIDERING YOU HAVE ANOTHER DR. MARY EVELYN BELLGARDE, WHAT DID YOU LEARN FROM THESE TWO WOMEN?

>> WELL, BOTH ARE MATRIARCHS IN THEIR OWN RIGHT.

DR. HENRIETTA MANN, IS CHEYENNE, SHE'S SOUTHERN CHEYENNE.

YOU KNOW, SHE RECENTLY WAS GIVEN -- AWARDED BY PRESIDENT ENDOWMENT OF THE HUMANITIES, AND IN HIS SPEECH HE SAID, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE OF DR. HENRIETTA MANN WE TEACH AMERICAN INDIAN STUDIES ACROSS THE NATION.

SHE HAS BEEN A CHAMPION OF INDIGENOUS EDUCATION FOR GENERATIONS NOW, AND YOU KNOW, DR. HENRI WENT TO BOARDING SCHOOL HERSELF.

SHE EXPERIENCED FIRSTHAND THE HORRIFIC REALITY OF AMERICAN BOARDING SCHOOLS THAT, YOU KNOW, ARE STILL OPERATING TODAY.

THIS ISN'T SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED A LONG TIME AGO.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT'S STILL ONGOING, WHICH IS THIS IDEA THAT INDIGENOUS PEOPLE SHOULD ASSIMILATE INTO WESTERN CULTURE.

AND YOU KNOW, THE BOARDING SCHOOLS HAD A TREMENDOUS EFFECT ON OUR PEOPLE.

SO FOR DR. HENRI TO BE ABLE TO GO TO BOARDING SCHOOL, TO EXPERIENCE A PLACE WHERE SHE REMEMBERS MARCHING AND NEVER BEING TOLD THAT SHE WAS LOVED AND EXPERIENCED EXTREME HATRED FOR HER CULTURE AND FOR HER SURVIVE THAT AND THEN GO ON AND BECOME A Ph.D. AND A SCHOLAR AND THEN OPEN TRIBAL SCHOOLS AND WORK TOWARDS CHAMPIONING INDIGENOUS EDUCATION IS, TO ME, AN INCREDIBLE FEAT AS IS DR. MARY EVELYN BELL GARDE WHO YOU MENTIONED WHO IN MY CONVERSATION WITH HER SAID WHEN ARE WE GOING TO STOP ASKING OUR CHILDREN TO CHOOSE BETWEEN CULTURAL EDUCATION AND WESTERN EDUCATION, I THINK WE'RE READY TO STOP THE ASSIMILATION PROCESS.

DR. MARY WAS ALSO A CHAMPION OF INDIGENOUS CHARTER SCHOOLS IN NEW MEXICO SO THAT OUR YOUNG PEOPLE WOULD HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO LEARN IN THEIR LANGUAGE, WHICH IS SO PROFOUND.

>> YEAH.

YOU'RE NOT NECESSARILY A NEWS PHOTOGRAPHER, BUT YOU ALSO TOOK SEVERAL IMAGES THAT ARE IN THE BOOK FROM STANDING ROCK, AND THERE'S AN ENTIRE SECTION IN THE BOOK WITH DIFFERENT PORTRAITS.

WHY WAS STANDING ROCK IMPORTANT FOR NATIVE COMMUNITIES BEYOND JUST THE AREA AFFECTED BY THE DAKOTA ACCESS PIPELINE?

>> YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE GREATEST REALIZATIONS THAT I HAD ALONG THE JOURNEY IS THAT I REALIZED THAT MANY OF OUR PEOPLE STILL IDENTIFY BY THEIR TRADITIONAL PLACE BASED IDENTITIES.

YOU KNOW, THE PEOPLE OF, OR THE PEOPLE OF THE SALMON, THE PEOPLE OF THE TIDE, THE PEOPLE OF THE BLUE SALT WATER, THE PEOPLE THAT LIVE AMONG THE FOUR SACRED MOUNTAINS AND THESE OTHER LAND-BASED IDENTITIES, AND SO AS I WENT ALONG MY JOURNEY, I FOUND THAT ALL OF OUR PEOPLE HAD THESE TRADITIONAL PLACE-BASED IDENTITIES AND A PED GOD JI TO TEACH OUR CHILDREN HOW TO BECOME A STEWARD AND HOW TO BE IN RELATIONSHIP WITH THAT LAND.

AND SO YOU KNOW, STANDING ROCK WAS A MOVEMENT TO PROTECT THAT PLACE-BASED IDENTITY, AND YOU KNOW, I HAD THIS REALIZATION ALONG THE WAY THAT, YOU KNOW, OUR PEOPLE IN ALL OF THESE DIFFERENT PLACES ARE EXPERIENCING THIS ENVIRONMENTAL HAVEN'T MOVED OR BEEN RELOCATED, WE FEEL DISPLACED BECAUSE THE FACE OF MOTHER EARTH IS CHANGING SO DRAMATICALLY AROUND US.

SO EVEN IF WE HAVEN'T LEFT OUR TRADITIONAL TERRITORIES, YOU KNOW, IN PLACES LIKE COCA PAW, YOU KNOW, WHERE THE COLORADO RIVER USED TO ONCE FLOW IN ABUNDANCE IS NOW BASICALLY DRIED UP FROM SO MUCH DIVERSION AND DAMMING UP RIVER THAT THE PEOPLE WHO USED TO HAVE THEIR COMING OF AGE CEREMONIES BY SWIMMING THE BREADTH OF THE COLORADO RIVER CAN NO LONGER DO SO.

THE PEOPLE THAT USED TO IRRIGATE FROM THE COLORADO RIVER AND GROW THESE LUSCIOUS GARDENS ARE NO LONGER ABLE TO DO SO BECAUSE THE RIVER NO LONGER FLOWS THERE.

SO WHAT HAPPENS TO THESE PLACE-BASED IDENTITIES, WHO WE ARE AS INDIVIDUALS WHEN MODERNIZATION IS CHANGING THE FACE OF EARTH, MOTHER EARTH SO DRAMATICALLY AROUND US.

>> YOU HAVE ANOTHER SECTION IN HERE THAT REALLY STARTS OUT WITH A STRIKING IMAGE OF QUINN HAM BEE, SHE'S GOT A RED HAND PAINTED ACROSS HER FACE, AND SHE PROTESTING ABUSES AGAINST NATIVE WOMEN AND YOU SAY IN THIS SECTION, YOU SAY IF YOU READ NOTHING ELSE IN THIS ENTIRE BOOK, READ THIS, NATIVE WOMEN DESERVE SAFETY.

>> WELL, UNFORTUNATELY, IT WAS VERY OFTEN THAT I WOULD MEET NATIVE WOMEN WHO HAD TOLD ME THEIR STORIES OF SURVIVAL AND THEIR STORIES OF OVERCOMING SOME OF THE TERRIBLE THINGS THAT HAD HAPPENED TO THEM.

I REMEMBER ONE GRANDMA TOLD ME ABOUT WHAT HAD HAPPENED TO HER DAUGHTER.

ANOTHER TOLD ME ABOUT WHEN SHE WAS IN THE MILITARY AND SHE WAS RAPED, AND SHE CAME HOME AND SHE HAD A CHILD BORN OF RAPE, AND YOU KNOW, LIKE WAS TREATED UNFAIRLY BY BOTH THE MILITARY AND BY HER COMMUNITY BECAUSE OF THAT, WHAT HAD HAPPENED WITH THAT CHILD.

I SPENT A NUMBER OF MONTHS HEARING STORIES FROM INDIGENOUS WOMEN WHO HAD BEEN VIOLATED, WHO WERE IN THOSE STORIES WERE TAKEN TO CONGRESS WHEN THERE WAS AN EFFORT TO REFORM THE VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN ACT.

THIS IS WHAT WE KNOW TO BE TRUE, THREE OUT OF FOUR NATIVE WOMEN EXPERIENCE SEXUAL ASSAULT OR DOMESTIC VIOLENCE IN THEIR LIFETIME.

YOU KNOW, THAT IS AN OUTRAGEOUS, EGREGIOUS NUMBER.

YOU KNOW, WE HAVE THOUSANDS OF WOMEN THAT GO MISSING EVERY YEAR, AND IT SHOULD BE A PUBLIC HEALTH EMERGENCY, A PUBLIC HEALTH CRISIS, YOU KNOW, BUT NATIVE WOMEN'S BODIES HAVE BEEN DISREGARDED, AND THE SAFETY AND THE HEALTH OF INDIGENOUS PEOPLES IS ALL TOO OFTEN OVERLOOKED.

>> ANOTHER STAT THAT KIND OF LEAPT OUT AT ME AS I WAS THUMBING THROUGH THIS WAS THAT SUICIDE IS THE LEADING CAUSE OF DEATH FOR NATIVE AMERICAN YOUTH, AND ONE OF THE WOMEN YOU SHE'S A SUICIDE PREVENTION COORDINATOR, WHAT DID SHE TELL YOU ABOUT THIS?

>> KRISTA LYNN TALKED TO ME ABOUT THE NEED TO CREATE A ROAD TO HEALING FOR OUR YOUNG PEOPLE, THAT IT'S SO IMPORTANT FOR OUR YOUNG PEOPLE -- ONE OF THE THINGS THAT SHE SAID THAT REALLY STUCK WITH ME IS THAT SUICIDE HAS A SPIRIT OF ITS OWN, AND THAT WE DON'T NAME SUICIDE OFTEN IN OUR COMMUNITIES BECAUSE THE POWER OF THAT SPIRIT AND THE POWER OF NAMING IT THAT WE'VE CHOSEN INSTEAD TO USE DIFFERENT LANGUAGE TO IDENTIFY THAT TYPE OF DEATH.

AND, YOU KNOW, WE KNOW THAT YOUNG PEOPLE, MOST -- I THINK IT WAS POLLED LIKE 92% OF NATIVE YOUTH DON'T BELIEVE THEY'RE GOING TO LIVE BEYOND THE AGE OF 25, AND SO, YOU KNOW, WE ARE IN MANY WAYS FACING AN EPIDEMIC OF HOPELESSNESS WITH OUR YOUNG PEOPLE, AND SO WE NEED POSITIVE FILMS LIKE "RESERVATION DOGS," REPRESENTATIVES LIKE DEB HOLLAND, SO THAT OUR YOUNG PEOPLE CAN SEE THAT THEY CAN GO OUT INTO THIS WORLD AND BE WHOMEVER IT IS THAT THEY WANT TO BE, RIGHT?

BUT THAT THEIR REALITY ISN'T ROOTED AND THEIR OUTCOME ISN'T ROOTED IN THIS NARRATIVE, THIS NARRATIVE OF POVERTY OR THIS NARRATIVE OF HOPELESSNESS OR THIS NARRATIVE OF EXTINCTION.

THEY DESERVE MORE THAN THAT.

>> TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT LEON GRANT.

WHAT A REMARKABLE LIFE.

I MEAN, IT IS ALMOST, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THESE ZELLIC TYPE CHARACTERS AND ALL THE DIFFERENT PLACES HE'S BEEN AND THE KINDS OF IMPACTS HE'S HAD.

>> LEON GRANT, I THINK OF HIM KIND OF AS THE NATIVE FORREST GUMP IN THE BEST SORT OF WAY IN THAT HE HAD MANY GREAT LIVES AND WHEN HE WAS A YOUNG MAN, HE WAS A CHAMPION BRONC RIDER.

HE ONCE RODE FOR LIKE SEVERAL LIKE OVER 50 DAYS STRAIGHT IN MADISON SQUARE GARDEN.

WHEN HE WENT BACK HOME, HE DECIDED THAT HE WANTED TO GO TO COLLEGE, AND HE WENT TO HIS PARENTS AND HE TOLD THEM, LIKE I HEARD THEY'RE LETTING NATIVE PEOPLE INTO COLLEGE IN ARIZONA -- OF COURSE THIS WAS BEFORE SCHOOLS WERE INTEGRATED AND BEFORE NATIVE PEOPLE WERE ALLOWED INTO COLLEGE, AND HE HAD HEARD THAT THEY WERE ALLOWING THAT KIND OF CONTINUED EDUCATION IN ARIZONA, AND SO HE ASKED THEM IF HE COULD GO TO COLLEGE, AND HIS PARENTS WERE LIKE, NO, YOU'RE GOING TO STAY HERE.

YOU'RE GOING TO BE A RANCHER.

SO WHEN THEY WENT TO TOWN TO GET SOME FEED HE WROTE THEM A NOTE, HE SAID I'M GOING TO COLLEGE.

I'LL BE BACK IN FOUR YEARS, AND HE PROCEEDED TO WALK LIKE OVER A THOUSAND MILES FROM OMAHA, NEBRASKA, TO PHOENIX, ARIZONA.

WHEN HE ARRIVED, HE DIDN'T HAVE ANY MONEY, SO HE WENT TO THE -- HE WENT TO THAT SCHOOL.

HE OFFERED THEM TOBACCO.

HE SAID I DON'T HAVE ANY MONEY, I DON'T HAVE TRANSCRIPTS BUT I I'LL PAY BACK EVERY RED CENT.

THEY LET HIM IN.

HE GRADUATED AND WENT ON TO THEOLOGY SCHOOL AND EVENTUALLY LAW SCHOOL.

HE WORKED DURING THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT TO OPEN THE FIRST -- AT A TIME WHEN IT WAS VERY DANGEROUS TO BE A NATIVE PERSON.

WE NEEDED PUBLIC SPACES AND LEON CHAMPIONED THOSE PUBLIC SPACES IN A LOT OF WAY.

WHEN LEON PASSED AWAY, THE STATE OF ARIZONA NAMED THAT DAY AFTER HIM FOR THE WORK THAT HE'D DONE FOR THE SOCIAL JUSTICE AND CIVIL LIBERTIES OF INDIGENOUS PEOPLE.

>> ONE OF THE GROUPS THAT IS UNDER ATTACK RIGHT NOW ARE LGBTQ PEOPLE AND ONE OF THE PEOPLE THAT YOU PROFILE, JAY MEE COE THOMAS.

TELL ME WHAT IS A SPIRIT PERSON?

>> MICO IS AN INCREDIBLE FRIEND AND A LEADER OF THE TWO SPIRIT POWWOW IN THE BAY AREA.

TRADITIONALLY, YOU KNOW, TWO SPIRIT HAS SEVERAL MEANINGS DEPENDING ON WHICH COMMUNITY YOU TALK TO, BUT CLOAK WALLY AND GENERALLY I MIGHT SAY A TWO SPIRIT PERSON IDENTIFIES WITH HAVING A MALE AND FEMALE SPIRIT OR MAYBE AN AN SPIRIT.

WE DIDN'T JUST HAVE TWO GENDERS IN MANY OF OUR SOCIETIES.

MANY OF OUR LANGUAGES WERE NOT GENDERED.

THE LANGUAGE IS DEFINED BY WHAT HAS A SPIRIT AND WHAT DOES NOT, FOR INSTANCE.

SO LIKE THE ENTIRE WORLD VIEW IS FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT, RIGHT?

BUT MANY TWO SPIRIT PEOPLE IN OUR SOCIETIES HELD SPECIAL ROLES IN OUR COMMUNITIES, BOTH POWER HOLDING ROLES POLITICALLY AND ALSO SPIRITUALLY AND ALSO FAMILIARLY.

IT WASN'T QUITE AS TABOO OR CONTROVERSIAL AS IT IS IN WESTERN SOCIETY OR IN WESTERN RELIGIOUS BELIEF SYSTEMS.

WE HAD A DIFFERENT BELIEFS ABOUT TWO SPIRIT PEOPLE.

THAT.

AND SO THERE HAS BEEN A DEEP NEED FOR US TO CREATE SAFE SPACES FOR OUR TWO SPIRIT RELATIVES.

>> SO YOU HAD THIS UNBELIEVABLE OPPORTUNITY TO MEET SO MANY DIFFERENT TYPES OF NATIVE PEOPLES ON THEIR LAND IN ALL THESE DIFFERENT CONTEXTS OVER SEVERAL YEARS.

LOOKING BACK NOW, WAS THERE A COMMON THREAD TO YOUR CONVERSATIONS?

IS THERE SOMETHING THAT PULLED THIS BOOK TOGETHER FOR YOU?

>> I WOULD OVERWHELMINGLY SAY THAT THE COMMON THREAD IS THAT I FOUND INCREDIBLE HUMANITY, RIGHT?

WE'RE OFTEN TOLD THAT THE WORLD IS A VERY SCARY PLACE, AND THIS COUNTRY IS A VERY SCARY PLACE.

RIGHT?

THERE'S WAY TOO MANY GUNS IN THIS COUNTRY.

THERE'S WAY TOO MANY THINGS THAT ARE HAPPENING THAT ARE VERY DANGEROUS.

SO I DON'T WANT TO OVERLOOK THAT REALITY AND THAT TRUTH, BUT I HAVE FOUND ON A PERSONAL LEVEL WHEN I GO TO STRANGER'S HOME AND I PUT MY HAND OUT AND I BRING FOOD AND SNACKS AND GIFTS AND COME IN A GOOD WAY IN INDIAN COUNTRY THAT I HAVE BEEN OVERWHELMINGLY SUPPORTED WITH KINDNESS AND LOVE AND GOODNESS AND THAT THAT HUMANITY THAT EXISTS IS WORTHY OF TALKING ABOUT.

>> PHOTOGRAPHER AND AUTHOR MATIKA WILBUR, THE BOOK IS CALLED "PROJECT 562: CHANGING THE WAY WE SEE NATIVE AMERICA" THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>>> FINALLY TONIGHT, A DROUGHT IN MEXICO HAS REVEALED AN INCREDIBLE 16th CENTURY CHURCH, THE RESURFACED TEMPLE OF SANTIAGO WAS BUILT BY DOMINICAN MONKS BUT IT WAS ABANDONED IN THE LATE 1700s.

IT WAS FLOODED AROUND 60 YEARS AGO WHEN A DAM WAS BUILT NEARBY AND IT'S ONLY NOW THE SECOND TIME TOURISTS HAVE BEEN ABLE TO WALK AROUND THE SITE BECAUSE SIMILAR CONDITIONS REVEALED THIS CHURCH BACK IN 2002.

THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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THANKS FOR WATCHING AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.