>> BRAUDE: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY MICHAEL SULLIVAN AND WESTERN NEW ENGLAND UNIVERSITY LAW PROFESSOR JENNIFER TAUB JOIN ME TO WADE THROUGH TODAY'S JANUARY 6TH SELECT COMMITTEE EVIDENCE.

AND ON DAY FOUR OF THE HEARINGS, THE FOCUS WAS ON HOW DONALD TRUMP PRESSURED GEORGIA AND ARIZONA ELECTION OFFICIALS TO ILLEGALLY OVERTURN THEIR ELECTION RESULTS BECAUSE OF SUPPOSED FRAUD IN THE STATES, AND WHAT HAPPENED AFTER.

FRAUD THAT WE ONCE AGAIN HEARD FROM MULTIPLE WITNESSES DID NOT ACTUALLY EXIST, AS THEY TOLD HIM REPEATEDLY.

>> I SAID SOMETHING TO THE EFFECT OF SIR WE'VE DONE DOZENS OF INVESTIGATIONS, HUNDREDS OF INTERVIEWS.

THE MAJOR ALLEGATIONS ARE NOT SUPPORTED BY THE EVIDENCE DEVELOPED.

>> FIND THOSE VOTES!

THEY SHOULD ABSOLUTELY FIND THEM.

JUST OVER 11,000 VOTES.

THAT'S ALL WE NEED.

THEY DEFRAUDED US OUT OF A WIN IN GEORGIA, AND WE'RE NOT GONNA FORGET IT.

>> THE FULTON COUNTY ALLEGATIONS WERE -- HAD NO MERIT.

THERE WAS NO EVIDENCE OF A SUBTERFUGE.

>> THIS ELECTION HAS TO BE TURNED AROUND, BECAUSE WE WON PENNSYLVANIA BY A LOT AND WE WON ALL OF THESE SWING STATES BY A LOT.

>> I JUST REMEMBER-- I EITHER REPLIED OR CALLED SOMEBODY SAYING, UNLESS WE HAVE LITIGATION PENDING IN THESE STATES, LIKE, I DON'T THINK THIS IS APPROPRIATE.

OR, YOU KNOW, THIS ISN'T THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

>> BRAUDE: PERHAPS A BIT OF AN UNDERSTATEMENT.

AND ONCE AGAIN, WE HEARD THAT THE DRIVING FORCES BEHIND THIS, ALONGSIDE TRUMP, WERE HAS FAVORITE ATTORNEYS: RUDY GIULIANI AND JOHN EASTMAN, BOTH OF WHOM DISPLAYED IMPECCABLE LEGAL REASONING THROUGHOUT.

HERE'S A BIT OF WHAT WE HEARD TODAY ABOUT GIULIANI'S: >> HE SAID, WE'VE GOT LOTS OF THEORIES, WE JUST DON'T HAVE THE EVIDENCE.

>> BRAUDE: AND HERE'S SOME OF EASTMAN'S, AS HE PUSHED ARIZONA'S HOUSE SPEAKER TO ILLEGALLY DECERTIFY HIS STATE'S ELECTION RESULTS: >> HE SAID "JUST DO IT AND LET THE COURTS SORT IT OUT."

>> BRAUDE: WONDER WHAT HE CHARGED FOR THAT KIND OF ADVICE.

AND SO THE PRESSURE CAMPAIGN WENT ON, AIMED AT MULTIPLE ELECTION OFFICIALS, SPEARHEADED BY THE THEN-PRESIDENT HIMSELF, WHO MADE CALL AFTER CALL TO GEORGIA ELECTION OFFICIALS, AS WE HEARD AGAIN TODAY: >> HOPEFULLY, WHEN THE RIGHT ANSWER COMES OUT YOU'LL BE PRAISED.

I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW WHY, YOU KNOW, THEY'VE MADE IT SO HARD.

THEY WILL BE PRAISED.

PEOPLE WILL SAY GREAT!

BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT IT'S ABOUT, THAT ABILITY TO CHECK AND TO MAKE IT RIGHT.

BECAUSE EVERYONE KNOWS IT'S WRONG, THERE'S JUST NO WAY.

ANYWAY, BUT WHATEVER YOU CAN DO, FRANCES, IT WOULD BE A GREAT THING, IT'S AN IMPORTANT THING FOR THE COUNTRY, SO IMPORTANT.

YOU HAVE NO IDEA, IT'S SO IMPORTANT.

AND I VERY MUCH APPRECIATE IT.

SO LOOK ALL I WANT TO DO IS THIS.

I JUST WANT TO FIND 11,780 VOTES WHICH IS ONE MORE THAN WE HAVE BECAUSE WE WON THE STATE.

WHY WOULDN'T YOU WANT TO FIND THE RIGHT ANSWER, INSTEAD OF KEEP SAYING THE NUMBERS ARE RIGHT?

SO LOOK, CAN YOU GET TOGETHER.

GRANT, WE JUST WANT THE TRUTH.

IT'S SIMPLE.

AND, UH - AND EVERYONE'S GOING TO LOOK VERY GOOD IF THE TRUTH COMES OUT.

IT'S OKAY, IT MAY TAKE A LITTLE WHILE BUT LET THE TRUTH COME OUT.

THE REAL TRUTH IS I WON BY 400,000 VOTES.

AT LEAST.

SO WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO, FELLAS?

I ONLY NEED 11,000 VOTES.

FELLAS.

I NEED 11,000 VOTES, GIVE ME A BREAK!

>> Braude: HE ONLY NEEDED 1,000 VOTES.

BUT THE OFFICIALS UNDER PRESSURE WERE METICULOUS, REFUTING TEAM TRUMP'S CLAIMS POINT BY POINT.

>> THE NUMBERS ARE THE NUMBERS.

THE NUMBERS DON'T LIE.

WE HAD MANY ALLEGATIONS AND WE INVESTIGATED EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.

IN FACT, I CHALLENGED MY TEAM 'DID WE MISS ANYTHING?'

THEY SAID THAT THERE WAS OVER 66,000 UNDERAGE VOTERS, WE FOUND THAT THERE'S ACTUALLY ZERO; YOU CAN REGISTER TO VOTE IN GEORGIA WHEN YOU'RE 17 AND A HALF YOU HAVE TO BE 18 BY ELECTION DAY.

WE CHECKED THAT OUT.

EVERY SINGLE VOTER.

THEY SAID THAT THERE WAS 2,423 NON REGISTERED VOTERS.

THERE WERE ZERO.

THEY SAID THAT THERE WAS 2,056 FELONS.

WE IDENTIFIED LESS THAN 74 OR LESS THAT WERE ACTUALLY STILL ON FELONY SENTENCE.

EVERY SINGLE ALLEGATION WE CHECKED, WE RAN DOWN THE RABBIT TRAIL TO MAKE SURE THAT OUR NUMBERS WERE ACCURATE.

>> BRAUDE: TRUMP'S RESPONSE TO THE SECRETARY OF STATE'S LITANY OF FACTS?

>> I WATCHED YOU THIS MORNING AND YOU SAID WELL THERE WAS NO CRIMINALITY, BUT ALL OF THIS STUFF IS VERY DANGEROUS STUFF WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT NO CRIMINALITY.

I THINK IT'S VERY DANGEROUS FOR YOU TO SAY THAT.

>> BRAUDE: AND INDEED IT WAS, AS FAR TOO MANY PEOPLE FOUND OUT, INCLUDING TOP ELECTION OFFICIALS, AND THEIR FAMILIES: >> MY CELL PHONE WAS DOXXED, SO ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

THEN EVENTUALLY, MY WIFE STARTED GETTING TEXTS.

HER'S CAME AS SEXUALIZED TEXTS WHICH WERE DISGUSTING.

AND THEN SOME PEOPLE BROKE INTO MY DAUGHTER AND LAW'S HOME.

>> WE STARTED TO HEAR THE NOISES OUTSIDE OUR HOME AND THAT'S WHEN, MY STOMACH SUNK AND I THOUGHT 'IT'S ME' AND THEN WE DON'T KNOW THE UNCERTAINTY OF THAT WAS THE FEAR.

ARE THEY COMING WITH GUNS, ARE THEY GONNA ATTACK MY HOUSE, I'M IN HERE WITH MY KID, I'M TRYING TO PUT IM TO BED.

>> BRAUDE: AND THEN THERE WERE THE ELECTION VOLUNTEERS, WHO WERE JUST TRYING TO PLAY A ROLE IN THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS, BUT WHOSE LIVES WERE ULTIMATELY UP-ENDED.

PEOPLE LIKE SHAYE MOSS AND HER MOTHER, RUBY FREEMAN, WHO WE HEARD FROM TODAY, DETAILING WHAT HAPPENED AFTER TRUMP AND FRIENDS RELEASED A SURVEILLANCE VIDEO THAT THE CAMPAIGN FALSELY CLAIMED SHOWED THE PAIR BRINGING SUITCASES FULL OF FRAUDULENT BALLOTS TO RIG THE VOTE IN FULTON COUNTY, GEORGIA.

>> I RECEIVED A CALL FROM MY GRANDMOTHER SCREAMING AT THE TOP OF HER LUNGS, LIKE "SHAYE SHAYE SHAYE OH MY GOD SHAYE."

JUST FREAKING ME OUT, SAYING THERE WERE PEOPLE AT HER HOME AND THEY KNOCKED ON THE DOOR AND OF COURSE SHE OPENED IT, SEEING WHO WAS THERE.

AND THEY JUST STARTED PUSHING THEIR WAY THROUGH, CLAIMING THEY WERE MAKING A 'CITIZENS ARREST.'

THEY NEEDED TO FIND ME AND MY MOM.

>> I HAVEN'T BEEN ANYWHERE AT ALL.

I'VE GAINED ABOUT 60 POUNDS.

I JUST.. DON'T DO NOTHING ANYMORE.

I DON'T WANNA GO ANYWHERE.

I SECOND-GUESS EVERYTHING THAT I DO.

IT'S AFFECTED MY LIFE IN A MAJOR WAY.

IN EVERY WAY.

ALL BECAUSE OF LIES, FOR ME DOING MY JOB, SAME THING I'VE BEEN DOING FOREVER.

>> I'VE LOST MY NAME, AND I'VE LOST MY REPUTATION, I'VE LOST MY SENSE OF SECURITY, ALL BECAUSE A GROUP OF PEOPLE STARTING WITH NUMBER 45 AND RUDY GUILIANI DECIDED TO SCAPEGOAT ME AND MY DAUGHTER TO PUSH THEIR OWN LIES ABOUT HOW THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN.

>> Braude: SIMPLY NO WORDS.

I'M JOINED NOW BY FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY MICHAEL SULLIVAN, WHO WAS APPOINTED BY GEORGE W. BUSH, SUCCESSFULLY PROSECUTED THE SHOEBOMBER, WORKED WITH FORMER SPECIAL COUNSEL ROBERT MUELLER AT THE D.O.J.

AND IS NOW A PARTNER WITH THE ASHCROFT GROUP.

WE'RE ALSO JOINED BY JENNIFER TAUB, A WESTERN NEW ENGLAND UNIVERSITY LAW PROFESSOR AUTHOR OF "BIG DIRTY MONEY: THE SHOCKING INJUSTICE AND UNSEEN COST OF WHITE COLLAR CRIME."

JENNIFER AND MYEL, I REALLY APPRECIATE -- MICHAEL, I REALLY APPRECIATE YOU TIME.

THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING US.

>> Braude: CAN WE TRY TO DIVIDE THIS?

LET'S TRY TO PUT ASIDE FOR THE MOMENT MS. MOSS AND FREEMAN.

WE'LL GET TO THE ELECTION WORKERS.

WHAT WAS YOUR TAKEN TO THE TESTIMONY FOCUSING ON THE ELECTION OFFICIALS FROM GEORGIA AND THE THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE IN ARIZONA.

>> IN TERMS OF THE ELECTED OFFICIAL IN GEORGIA, IT WAS APPARENT TO ME LISTENING TO HIS TESTIMONY, PARTICULARLY THE CLIPS THAT YOU PLAYED AS THE LEAD-IN HERE, THAT HE THOROUGHLY INVESTIGATED THE ALLEGATIONS CONCERNING FRAUD THAT WERE BEING PRESENTED TO HIM, YOU KNOW, BY THOSE ASSOCIATED WITH THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN.

SO I GIVE HIM CREDIT, YOU KNOW, FOR BRINGING THOSE ALLEGATIONS OF FRAUD DOWN.

THAT'S WHAT ELECTION OFFICIALS SHOULD BE DOING IS TO ENSURE THE INTEGRITY OF THE ELECTION PROCESS.

>> Braude: AND HOW ABOUT THE ARIZONA SPEAKER?

I DON'T HAVE TO SAY I'M NOT THE LAWYER EITHER OF YOU ARE, BUT IF I EVER SAW A PERFECT WITNESS IN A PUBLIC HEARING, HE WAS RIGHT UP THERE.

WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF THAT TESTIMONY, MICHAEL?

>> I THOUGHT HIS TESTIMONY APPEARED TO BE SINCERE.

IN THE TESTIMONY THAT I HERD, BOTH OF THE CLIP THAT YOU PLAYED AND A LITTLE BIT EARLIER TODAY AS AWATCHED SOME OF THE JANUARY SIXTH COMMITTEE TESTIMONY, HE NEVER ONCE INDICATED THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP ASKED HIM TO DO ANYTHING IMPROPER OR ILLEGAL.

YOU KNOW, PRESIDENT TRUMP INDICATED THAT ATTORNEYS WORKING ON THE CAMPAIGN BEHALF -- OR PRESIDENT TRUMP'S MARVEL, PARTICULARLY RUDY GIULIANI, REPRESENTED THEY HAD OVER 2 HOW 200,000 PEOPLE THAT RUDY GIULIANI DESCRIBED OR AT LEAST THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE DESCRIBED AS ILLEGAL ALIENS THAT VOTED, AND SOMEWHERE AROUND 5,000 PEOPLE THAT WERE DECEASED HAD VOTED.

AGAIN, IT WASN'T PRESIDENT TRUMP THAT WAS MAKING THOSE REPRESENTATIONS, IT WAS RUDY GIULIANI.

AND WHAT I HEARD FROM THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE IS THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP CLEARLY INDICATED AND INSTRUCTED RUDY GIULIANI TO TURN THAT EVIDENCE OVER TO THE SPEAKER, BECAUSE HE HAD ASKED SPECIFICALLY FOR THE EVIDENCE.

>> Braude: WHICH HE NEVER DID, BY THE WAY.

THE SPEAKER SAID HE NEVER GOT ANY OF IT DESPITE REFEED REQUESTS.

JENNIFER, I WANT YOUR OVERALL REACTION AND YOUR RESPONSE TO WHAT MIKE SULLIVAN SAID ABOUT TRUMP AND THE SPEAKER IN ARIZONA.

>> SURE.

THANKS.

YEAH, I HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO WATCH ALL OF THE TESTIMONY OTHER THAN MAYBE A TWO-MINUTE BREAK TOWARD THE END, AND I THINK THERE WAS CLOSER LINKS DRAWN BETWEEN, FOR THE FIRST TIME, DIRECT LINKS DRAWN BETWEEN DONALD TRUMP AND THE CONSPIRACY, IN PARTICULAR IT WAS TESTIMONY THAT WAS ON TAPE THAT YOU MAY HAVE NOTICED, JIM, WITH RAHM MCDANIELS THAT WAS ASKED ON THE TELEPHONE BY TRUMP, INTRODUCED BY EASTMAN, ASKED TO HAVE THE RNC TO WORK TO FIND THE ALTERNATIVE ELECTORS.

SO THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME WE SAW HE WAS DIRECTLY INVOLVED WITH EASTMAN ON THIS AND IT WASN'T JUST EASTMAN'S IDEA.

THAT'S IMPORTANT, BECAUSE WE HAVE THE JUDGE WHO SAID THIS IS A CONSPIRACY, IN VAI LAGS THAN FROM THE MORE LIKELY THAN NOT STANDARD THAT THE EASTMAN CONSPIRACY UNDER 371 AND CONGRESSIONAL PROCEEDING UNDER 1512 -- >> Braude: JUDGE CARTER IN CALIFORNIA.

>> CARTER.

QUICKLY, I THINK THIS HEARING SPOKE ON A LEGAL AND FACTUAL LEVEL, AND I DO THINK ALL OF THE WITNESSES THAT YOU MENTIONED WERE CRECIAL, WERE HONORABLE, AND I ESPECIALLY -- CREDIBLE, WERE HONORABLE.

WE WERE TALKING ABOUT RUSTY BOWERS FROM ARIZONA SAYING, YOU KNOW, SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE, AND TURNED OUT RUDY SAID WE DON'T HAVE EVIDENCE, WE HAVE A THEORY, YOU KNOW.

AND, GIVEN THAT DONALD TRUMP HIMSELF CONSTANTLY CHANGED THE NUMBERS AROUND, SO ON, I DON'T THINK HE CARED ABOUT THE EVIDENCE.

WE SAW HIM REJECTING THE EVIDENCE ABOUT -- IN FACT, EVEN WHEN HE WAS TOLD ABOUT EVIDENCE, FOR EXAMPLE, IN D.P.A., THAT THEY WERE NOT -- IN GEORGIA THAT THEY WERE NOT BRINGING IN VOTES OR WHATEVER, HE REFUSED TO LOOK AT THE LINKS -- >> Braude: JUST ON THE NOTE FOR PEOPLE WHO MISSED THE HEARING, DESPITE THE FACT OF EXTENSIVE RESPONSE FROM THERE TWO GEORGIA ELECTION OFFICIALS SAYING THE SO-CALLED SUITCASES FULL OF VOTES ALL OF WHICH WERE BIDEN WERE REFUTED AND AGAIN AND AGAIN, THE PRESIDENT REPEATED THE SAME SUITCASE THEORY WHICH IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT GOT MISS MOSS AND FREEMAN IN TROUBLE.

ON THE CRIMINALITY ISSUE, HOW ABOUT THE FAKE ELECTOR THING?

THIS IS THE HEAD OF THE G.O.P.

IN MICHIGAN, LAURA COX ON A CONVERSATION SHE HAD WITH A MICHIGAN ALTERNATIVE ELECIALGHT, SOME CALL FAKE ELECTORS, WORKING WITH THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN.

HERE'S WHAT SHE HAD TO SAY.

>> HE TOLD ME THAT THE MICHIGAN REPUBLICAN ELECTORS WERE PLANNING TO MEET IN THE CAPITOL AND HIDE OVERNIGHT SO THAT THEY COULD FILL THE ROLE OF CASTING THEIR VOTE IN PER LAW IN THE MICHIGAN CHAMBERS, AND I TOLD HIM IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS THAT THAT WAS INSANE AND INAPPROPRIATE.

>> Braude: MICHAEL, I ASSUME YOU WOULD AGREE THERE WAS NO BASIS FOR THESE ALTERNATIVE I ELECTRICS AND AS JENNIFER SAID A MINUTE AGO, ON THE PHONE CALL TO THE HEAD OF THE RNC SAYING HELP US WITH THE FAKE ALTERNATIVE ELECTOR SLATES, DONALD TRUMP INITIATED THE CALL AND THEN TURNED IT OVER TO HIS LAWYER.

IS THAT NOT A PROBLEM IN YOUR ESTIMATION, POTENTIALLY, CRIMINALLY, FOR THE FORMER PRESIDENT?

>> I THINK IT'S GOING TO TAKE FAR MORE THAN THAT TO CHARGE AND TO SUCCESSFULLY PROVE SOME TYPE OF CRIME.

THAT HE, AS I UNDERSTOOD IT, IN THAT TAPE YOU JUST PLAYED, THAT HE WAS NOT DONALD TRUMP, THAT HE WAS SOMEBODY ELSE.

>> YES, IT WAS A DIFFERENT TAPE.

>> Braude: EXCUSE ME.

THAT TAPE, IT WAS.

BUT TRUMP INITIATED THE CALL.

THIS IS NOT DISPUTED, TO HEAD OF THE REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE, ASKING TO HELP -- >> IT WAS RON OR RODNEY McDANIEL -- >> Braude: TOTALLY DIFFERENT THING.

MICHIGAN WAS AN EXAMPLE.

NO QUESTION TRUMP INITIATED THE CALL.

>> THE FACT THAT TRUMP INITIATED THE CALL IS NOT EVIDENCE OF A CRIME.

I THINK WHAT YOU HEARD IN TERMS OF THE RECORDED CONVERSATION THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAD WITH THE ELECTED OFFICIAL IN GEORGIA WAS ABOUT THE TRUTH.

THE PRESIDENT WAS LOOKING FOR THE TRUTH.

>> Braude: FIND ME 11 -- MICHAEL, FIND ME 11780 VOTES, WHICH HAPPENED TO BE JUST ONE MORE VOTE THAN HE NEEDED TO FLIP IT, THAT'S NOT A LEGAL PROBLEM FOR THE FORMER PRESIDENT?

>> I DON'T THINK SO.

IF YOU START FROM A PREMISE THAT YOU BELIEVE THAT OVER 4 400,000 VOTES EITHER WERE IMPROPER OR NOT PROPERLY COUNTED FOR YOU, AND YOU DO THE MATH AND YOU SAY, LISTEN, ALL NEED IS 11,000 -- THERE WAS A DIFFERENCE OF AROUND 11,700 VOTES.

AND IF YOU'RE JUST SWITCHING VOTES, YOU NEED HALF OF THAT.

( TALKING AT THE SAME TIME ) >> Braude: WHOA, WHOA.

ONE SECOND.

MICHAEL, DOESN'T THE PRIM IS, TO USE YOUR WORD, NEED SOME FACTUAL BASIS, RATHER THAN JUST MANUFACTURING NUMBERS THAT YOUR OWN PEOPLE, EXCEPT FOR GIULIANI AND EASTMAN SAY ARE TOTAL B.S.?

>> WELL, AT SOME POINT IN TIME, MAYBE MOST OTHER PEOPLE EXCEPT RUDY GIULIANI AND EASTMAN QUESTION WHETHER OR NOT ANY OF THOSE NUMBERS THAT HAD BEEN PREVIOUSLY PROVIDED TO THE PRESIDENT COULD BE SUPPORTED.

BUT CANDIDATES SEEK RECOUNTS IN A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT INSTANCES, WHEN THEY BELIEVE THAT THERE WERE VOTES THAT WEREN'T COUNTED FOR THEMSELVES.

>> Braude: GOT IT.

NOBODY'S EVER SUGGESTED A REQUEST FOR A RECOUNT OR TO QUGHT VOTER FRAUD WHEN A CHALLENGE ELECTION RESULT IS A CRIME.

OTHER CANDIDATE HAVE DONE IT INCLUDING HISTORIC.

>> Braude: LET'S HAVE JENNIFER'S RESPONSE.

>> I NEED EQUAL TIME HERE.

I JUST WANT TO BE CLEAR.

>>.>> Braude: YEAH, JENNIFER, THAT'S WHY I SAID YOUR NAME.

>> MY MOTHER IS A POLITICIAN AND HAS RUN FOR OFFICE MANY TIMES.

YOU DO NOT MAKE UP A NUMBER OF VOTES IN A RECOUNT.

SECOND OF ALL, EVEN IF YOU BELIEVE YOU HAD WON, EVEN IF THAT WAS FACTUAL, TO TELL SOMEBODY -- IF A GEORGIA POLITICIAN JUST PIRKD THE NUMBER OUT TO HAVE THE HAT AND CAME UP WITH THE EXACT VOTES, THAT WOULD BE A CRIME UNDER GEORGIA LAW AND THAT THE WHAT THE FULTON COUNTY ATTORNEY IS INVESTIGATING.

I DON'T THINK IT'S CREDIBLE FOR YOU TO SAY THAT, AT THAT POINT IN TIME, WHEN HE WAS TOLD ABOUT THE AUDITS -- HAND AUDITS, WHEN HE WAS TOLD OF THE DETAILS THAT HE ASKED ABOUT WHAT WENT ON, I THINK THAT GOES TO HIS CORRUPT INTENT AND SUPPORTS EXACTLY WHAT JUDGE CARTER SAID, WHICH IS, I BELIEVE THAT, MORE LIKELY THAN NOT, IT WAS A CONSPIRACY TO DEFRAUD THE UNITED STATES, AND THE ONLY QUESTION WHICH I THINK YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT ABOUT IS WHETHER A JURY WOULD BELIEVE IT.

I DON'T THINK THEY HAVE ENOUGH EVIDENCE NOW TO GET TO-YEAR-OLD IN FRONT OF A JURY.

I THINK WE JUST HAVE TO SEE WHAT FURTHER EVIDENCE THEY CAN COME UP WITH.

>> Braude: MICHAEL SULLIVAN, HOW ABOUT THE POINT JENNIFER JUST MADE ABOUT THE PRESIDENT'S REPEATED ASSERTIONS ABOUT FRAUD AND ILLEGALITY DESPITE THE FACT THAT, AGAIN, EVERYBODY AROUND HIM, AT LEAST AS FAR AS WE KNOW, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF GIULIANI AND EASTMAN, WERE TELLING HIM THERE IS NO BASIS FOR ANY OF THAT BUT MON IN OF IT STOPPED HIM FROM REPEATING THE SAME ISSUE.

DOESN'T THAT DESTROY HIS CREDIBILITY IN A CASE?

>> WELL, CREDIBILITY IS -- THE LACK OF CREDIBILITY IS NOT EVIDENCE OF A CRIME.

HILLARY CLINTON DECLARED PRESIDENT TRUMP AS AN ILLEGITIMATE PRESIDENT.

SHE SAID PRESIDENT PUTIN RIGGED THE ELECTION.

>> Braude: WHAT DID SHE DO IN FURTHER RANTSD OF THAT THAT MIGHT ARGUABLY BE A CRIME OTHER THAN SAY IT?

>> SHE ESSENTIALLY HAD HER PEOPLE DEMAND A RECOUNT WHEN THE ELECTION RESULTS WEREN'T NEARLY AS CLOSE AS THEY WERE IN THE THREE STATES IN PARTICULAR THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP ASKED ELECTION OFFICIALS TO TAKE A CLOSER LOOK AT THE RESULTS.

>> Braude: BUT, MICHAEL, IF I MAY, TRUMP'S MOST FIERCE CRITIC HAS NEVER SUGGESTED, AT LEAST FARCE R AS FAR AS I KNOW, THAT DEMANDING A RECOUNT IS PERFECT.

DEMANDING A RECOUNT IS PERFECTLY FINE.

ADVANCING CLAIMS OF FRAUD AND CONTINUING TO STATE -- WELL, LET'S GO TO JENNIFER.

GO AHEAD.

>> IT'S ALSO AFTER -- TIMING DOES MATTER.

IN OTHER WORDS, DECEMBER 14, WHEN THE STATES CERTIFIED THEIR ELECTORS, IS A VERY DIFFERENT THING THAN A FEW DAYS AFTER AN ELECTION PEOPLE ASKING FOR A RECOUNT OF VOTES.

I MEAN, WHAT TRUMP WAS ASKING TO BE DONE WAS FOR -- IN ADDITION TO THIS, AS WE KNOW, FROM MIKE PENCE, TO ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, THROW OPEN THE VOTES AND THROW OUT THE ELECTORS THAT HAD BEEN, YOU KNOW, HAD BEEN CERTIFIED BY THE STATES.

SO THIS WAS PART OF A LARGER CONSPIRACY.

THERE ARE ALL THESE DIFFERENT PIECES, AND THERE'S NO QUESTION IN MY MIND THAT IT'S MORE LIKELY THAN NOT THIS HAPPENED.

I THINK, FROM A PROSECUTION PERSPECTIVE, I THINK WE HAVE TO -- YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW WHAT MERRICK GARLAND MAY HAVE UNCOVERED, BUT TO SUGGEST THAT EVERYTHING DONALD TRUMP DID WAS LEGITIMATE, I THINK, IS PUTTING BLINDERS ON.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, IF WE CAN SWITCH GEARS, BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO RUN OUT OF TIME, BECAUSE I THOUGHT IT WAS SOME OF THE MOST MOVING TESTIMONY I'VE EVER HAD.

HERE'S MORE FROM GEORGIA ELECTION WORKER SHAYE MOSS DESCRIBING THE NATURE OF SOME OF THE THREATS THAT SHE RECEIVED.

>> A LOT OF THREATS WISHING DEATH UPON ME, TELLING ME THAT I'LL BE IN JAIL WITH MY MOTHER AND SAYING THINGS LIKE "BE GLAD IT'S 2020 AND NOT 1920."

YEAH.

>> WERE A LOT OF THESE THREATS AND VILE COMMENTS RACIST IN NATURE?

SHAYE MOSS: A LOT OF THEM WERE RACIST, A LOT OF THEM WERE JUST HATEFUL.

>> Braude: AND, MICHAEL, THIS IS A PRODUCT, I THINK THERE'S NO DISPUTE HERE, OF THE PRESIDENT CONTINUING TO SUGGEST THAT THOSE SUITCASES WERE STUFFED WITH BIDEN BALLOTS, WHICH WEREN'T SUITCASES, AND I BELIEVE THE COUNT WAS 18 TIMES IN THAT PERFECT 67-MINUTE CALL WITH SECRETARY OF STATE RAFFENSBURGER IN WHICH HE MENTIONS MS. MOSS.

I'M TALKING ABOUT HUMANITY HERE, IT'S ALMOST LIKE A TERROR CAMPAIGN DIRECTED AGAINST THESE TWO WOMEN THAT, FREEZE WARNINGLY, SUCCEEDED.

>> I THINK IT'S HORRIBLE THAT MISS MOSS AND HER MOTHER HAVE HAD TO ENDURE.

HARD BREAKS FOR THEM.

I'M NOT GOING TO DEFEND ANYBODY THAT ESSENTIALLY PUT THEM IN THAT TYPE OF A POSITION.

IT'S SAD.

I HOPE THEY'RE ABLE TO RECLAIM THEIR LIVES.

>> Braude: THE PRIMARY PERSON WHO PUT THEM IN THAT POSITION WAS DONALD TRUMP.

SHOULD HE BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THAT?

>> WELL, AGAIN, HELD ACCOUNTABLE IN WHAT WAY?

IN THE FORM OF PUBLIC OPINION?

CERTAINLY, HE SHOULD BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE IN THE FORM OF PUBLIC OPINION.

I DON'T THINK DONALD TRUMP -- I'VE NOT HAD ONE CONVERSATION WITH DONALD TRUMP ABOUT ANY OF THIS.

I DON'T THINK DONALD TRUMP PULLED ALL THESE THINGS OUT OF THE AIR.

I THINK PEOPLE CLOSE TO HIM SUGGESTED TO HIM THAT THERE WAS WIDE SCALE FRAUD AND HE HAD WON THE ELECTION IN A NUMBER OF STATES.

>> Braude: BUT RATHLINGSBURGER AND STERLING MADE IT CLEAR HIS ASSERTIONS ABOUT THE SUITCASES WERE COMPLETELY FACTUALLY WRONG, YET HE CONTINUED TO ADVANCE THEM TO THE DETRIMENT OF THESE TWO WOMEN.

>> I'M NOT GOING TO DEFEND THE HARM THAT'S BEEN CAUSED TO THEM.

>> Braude: JENNIFER, LET ME ASK YOU TO RETURN TO THE LEGAL ISSUE.

JACK GOLDSMITH, HEAD OF THE OFFICE OF LEGAL COUNSEL YEARS AGO AND PROFESSOR ADD HARVARD LAW SCHOOL, AND HE'S NOT THE ONLY ONE, RAISES AN ISSUE IN A BOOK HE WROTE WITH JACK BOWER AND WE'LL REPLAY IT THURSDAY ON HOW TO REFORM THE PRESIDENT TO INSTITUTE SAFEGUARDS, CAN YOU IMAGINE, JENNIFER, A SITUATION WHERE A PROSECUTOR WAS CONVINCED DONALD TRUMP COMMITTED CRIMES BUT DECIDED BECAUSE OF NATIONAL CENTER NOT TO PROSECUTE?

IS THAT, IN YOUR ESTIMATE, A PROFESSIONAL JUDGMENT TO BE MADE PI A PROSECUTOR WHETHER MERRICK GARLAND OR ANYBODY ELSE?

>> WELL, I MEAN, IT'S WITHIN THEIR -- >> Braude: OF COURSE.

-- TO MAKE CHOICES.

THAT'S NOT THE CHOICE I WOULD MAKE IN THAT ROLE, BUT WHEN YOU CHOOSE -- THERE ARE LIMITED RESOURCES, YOU HAVE TO CHOOSE HOW YOU'RE GOING TO DIRECT THEM, AND IF A PROSECUTOR BELIEVES THAT THEY CAN PROVE A CASE CASE BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT, THEN I THINK THEY SHOULD BRING THE CASE.

THIS COMES UP IN CORPORATE PROSECUTION, AND I CAN IMAGINE THERE BEING FEAR ABOUT BRINGING THIS KIND OF CASE, BUT IF THERE'S ENOUGH EVIDENCE TO I THINK GET A CONVICTION, EVEN IF THEY THINK THEY COULD SUSTAIN AN APPEAL, BUT IF THEY'RE CONVINCED THEY HAVE THE EVIDENCE AND COULD CONVINCE A JURY, I THINK THEY SHOULD BRING THE CASE.

>> Braude: LET ME ASK MIKE SULLSULLIVAN.

LET'S ASSUME MERRICK GARLAND AGREED THERE IS EVIDENCE THAT DONALD TRUMP COMMITTED CRIMES BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT, HOW SHOULD HE WEIGH THE QUESTION OF NATIONAL INTEREST AGAINST THE PROSECUTION OF A FORMER PRESIDENT, WHICH OBVIOUSLY HAS NEVER BEEN TONE IN THIS COUNTRY?

>> YEAH, I THINK, IN MOST INSTANCES, PROSECUTORS, WHETHER AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL OR THE STATE LEVEL DON'T ESSENTIALLY MAKE THAT TYPE OF JUDGMENT IN MOST OF THE MATTERS THAT YOU UNDERTAKE, BUT THERE ARE LIMITED CIRCUMSTANCES IN WHICH THE NATIONAL-INTERNATIONAL INTERESTS MIGHT MITIGATE AGAINST, YOU KNOW, PURSUING CRIMINAL CHARGES.

I KNOW IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES WE HAD A MATTER THAT HAD INTERNATIONAL IMPLICATIONS AND THE DEPARTMENT DECLINED TO AUTHORIZE US TO MOVE FORWARD IN THE CASE, SO IT DOES HAPPEN.

JIM, AGAIN, WE DON'T KNOW WHAT MERRICK GARLAND HAS.

>> Braude: OF COURSE WE DON'T.

ALL WE KNOW IS WHAT'S BEEN TESTIFIED IN FRONT OF THE JANUARY SIXTH COMMITTEE, AND I THINK WE ALL HAVE TO AGREE THAT IT'S CLEARLY ONE-SIDED.

>> Braude: OF COURSE, IT IS.

OF COURSE, IT IS.

>> IT'S NOT TYPICALLY WHAT YOU WOULD SEE IN A PROSECUTION, EVEN IN A GRAND JURY INVESTIGATION.

>> Braude: THAT'S UNDERSTOOD.

MICHAEL SULLIVAN, JENNIFER TAUB, APPRECIATE YOUR TIME.

THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

HOPE TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Braude: THANK YOU.

THE NEXT HEARING STARTS ON THURSDAY AT 3:00 P.M. WE'LL BRING YOU THE BIG MOMENTS HERE AT 7:00 ONCE AGAIN, AND AS ALWAYS, YOU CAN LISTEN TO THE FULL HEARINGS LIVE ON GBH RADIO 89.7, STREAM THEM AT GBHNEWS.ORG, OR CATCH THEM LIVE ON THE GBH WORLD CHANNEL, WHIC IS OFFERING A FULL RE-AIRING AT 3:00 A.M.

THE MORNING AFTER EACH HEARING AS WELL.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, BUT COME BACK TOMORROW.

THE NEW YORK TIMES BESTSELLING AUTHOR OF "HOW TO BE AN ANTIRACIST," IBRAM X. KENDI, JOINS ME ON HIS NEW BOOK: "HOW TO RAISE AN ANTIRACIST."

THAT AND MORE, TOMORROW AT 7:00.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND STAY SAFE.

PLEASE DON'T FORGET UKRAINE.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org