Democratic U.S. Senate candidate Hill Harper is in the queue.

Up next on Off the Record and our lead story.

Budgets, budget budgets.

And then another story around the OTR table, Jonathan Oosting Zoe Clark and Zachary Gorchow sit in with us as we get the inside out.

Off the record.

Production of Off the Record is made possible, in part by Martin Waymire, a full service Strategic communications agency, partnering with clients through public relations, digital marketing and public policy engagement.

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And now this edition of Off the Record with Tim Skubick.

Thank you very much.

Welcome back to Studio C on this Friday morning.

Busy news week.

Let's do budget first.

Ms.. Clark.

They have targets except for K through 12.

What's going on?

Yeah, well, this is what we're all trying to figure out is what's going on and is this going to get done by July one?

Good question.

Exactly.

Look, there are a lot of moving parts right now because we've got, as we've been talking about, this economic development sort of hanging over all of it.

We've got the MPSERS funding hanging, all of it.

This is the teacher retirement, the governor wants.

To the governor wants to move some money over to be able to see some of her priorities.

And as we've talked also a lot about is the fact that Dems just don't have a large enough majority and they have some members who just aren't ready to rubber stamp some of these issues.

They are all over the lot.

Right as a caucus is, you know, known to do.

But because it's such a small majority, what, you know, it's an issue.

So.

Zacker, what do you think?

Well, there's an old saying when it comes to the budget, until there's an agreement on everything, there's not an agreement on anything.

And when you hear things like, well, we have targets except for K-12, I'm reminded of that phrase because the K 12 budget is still one of the big kahunas in the whole budget.

Its a fulcrum for the whole thing.

Yeah, the whole thing.

So they still have a ways to go, but I don't think they're miles away.

From what I understand.

They have a few different kind of choose your own adventure options depending on how K 12 is resolved and what happens with this decision on retiree health care and whether to reduce what is paid into that as the governor wants.

Jonathan out of the blue.

The Senate yesterday spoke out on this issue, which surprised everybody.

Yeah, well, first of all, we'll see by the time people watch this, maybe they'll have targeted... We don't know.

It's a fluid situation.

Don't say that Jonathan.

Everybody just reached for the clicker is going to get a beer.

As of Thursday morning, House Speaker Joe Tate began the day saying, I think we're close.

I think we're good right now.

We get this done today or tomorrow.

And then the house very abruptly adjourned without taking up this teacher retirement contribution funding legislation.

The Senate.

It's my understanding they then decided to act simply to keep the issue alive.

There's a sort of esoteric procedural rule that a bill has to exist at least five days in each chamber, a second chamber, before it can be voted on.

So the Senate moved the bill with the understanding that it will probably be changed again during negotiations.

They can it a shell bill.

This one actually did have a policy put into it.

It wasn't completely a shell, but it's probably not going to be the final policy.

But they basically kept the debate alive for next week.

Can I just talk about to Jonathan and Zach and both alluded to.

I just really loving all the statements from Joe Tate like it's just been so optimistic and day after day, like we're having fun doing it.

This is an exciting time and this is what I'm saying.

Like, it's just been really interesting just to keep the sort of positive momentum going as we've continued to talk about just what a caucus and what a job this man has.

You know.

I do not have access to his frustration meter of what I would have guessed.

That thing is buried in Obama's anger translator.

Maybe.

Yeah, it is a good spin right now from Joe Tate.

He announced yesterday, for instance, that they weren't going to vote on this economic development package.

And he announced it by saying it's a great day, we're making really good progress.

And then reporters had to say, well, what's happening?

And then he acknowledged that they're not voting on it as planned.

Which means if you've got plans for next week, scrap them.

When in doubt, a legislative leader will always say progress has been made because unverifiable and it's un discernible.

And but the reality is that was a setback on the economic development and you know SOAR, strategic outreach attraction reserve fund read big money to businesses to get them to come to Michigan or stay in Michigan.

And that was a big setback that, you know, there was the House Democrats had had some hope that this plan that Representative Jason Morgan, a Democrat from Ann Arbor, had floated, that besides setting aside some money for businesses, we're also going to have some money for for transit and communities and other priorities of Democrats.

But it wouldn't just all be cash for businesses.

And they did.

You know, it was on the tentative agenda and it got yanked.

And it's not that it's dead, but boy, that is that is ominous.

Well, it's not dead yet, but I think it's interesting to like how quickly it seemed like that had momentum.

Right.

The bills sort of came.

They started talking about a pre Mackinaw and then Whitmer, unlike the Senate version, was like, oh, you know, kind of like it.

And then you instantly saw the letters from like Mary Barra and sort of the whole business community.

And then there was a whole nother set from like every mayor.

And so it seemed like, you know, sort of like the momentum was going to happen.

And now.

Some story here is how is the governor doing?

Is she winning or losing on this teacher retirement fund?

Yeah, I like that pause said it all right?

All to I think again, as of taping Friday morning, I think it's too early to tell.

The sides are really dug in on this.

I mean, I, I guess I don't have access to, you know, what Speaker Tate and majority leader Winnie Brinks are really thinking.

She's having fun watching him swim.

But I do think I don't think they are invested in this idea of reducing what the state pays into retiree health care.

The way that Governor Whitmer is.

Governor Whitmer wants to be able to speed up this, you know, state funded free preschool for all.

And that is dependent really on, you know, moving the money from what goes into retiree, retired public school employee health care and making it available for something like that.

And so they're really dug in.

And I do think the legislature, though, is willing to throw what the governor wants under the bus.

When I see the speaker swing that he's he's swinging all over the lot, trying to find something that will fly and get 56 votes.

And at the end of the day, will he need Republicans?

Potentially.

I mean, and so the thing is, so these the education budget and this economic development package, we're talking about two different things, but they're getting all mixed up right now.

There's people horse trading, you give me one thing on this package and I might give you a vote on that package.

So everything is sort of intermingled right now.

I mean, most likely, yes.

For or certainly for the economic development package that may now be stalled.

They were going to need at least a couple Republican votes.

But Republicans who might have been in position to offer those votes were like, well, you do this thing for, you know, maybe back off the MIPSERVs thing and we'd be willing to consider it.

Look at the.

Progressive, see, yeah, the progressives would like a corporate tax increase.

Okay and the Rs would like an income tax reduction.

Neither the twain will meet do we agree on that?

Thats correct.

Yeah.

I mean, those are two nonstarters.

Sure.

And that's what I mean Minority Leader Matt Hall has been doing sort of from the beginning, like a couple of months ago it was like, well, we want a repeal of right to work, you know, like.

Warm letter to follow.

But this is what I mean.

It's like, here's the list of the things that, you know, that there were they're bringing to the table for an agreement.

That's not going to happen.

It's becoming very clear to me that if if the SOAR economic development package is dependent on Republican votes, it is dead.

It will not happen.

I don't we watched after this idea came out of committee, there were a couple Republicans that spoke kind of warmly of it.

They didn't vote for it.

They spoke kind of warmly of it.

It seemed like they said we're getting closer to it.

What happens the next day?

A letter under their names, I'm going to guess.

Minority Leader Matt Hall had a lot to do with it goes out with just this list of demands that are a nonstarter for the Democrats.

Matt Hall has really done an effective job of holding his caucus and basically letting the Democratic majority twist in the wind with, you know, they have no votes to spare.

And it seems to me, Matt Hall saying, you know, no way, we're not supporting it.

All right.

So let's move to our second story, which is a state lawmaker was arrested early in the morning.

Everybody says nothing good ever happens after 2 a.m. And in the case of Mr. Friske, that is clearly the case, although he's innocent until proven guilty.

But we have those charges out there.

But I want to look what are the political implications, if any, of this story and are there any.

Well, I mean, there's certainly political implications for Representative Friske.

He is in a primary up in his You know, Charlevoix, he's based in Charlevoix, but up there, up north in that district.

And he's got a legitimate, it seems, challenger already.

And this is going to, I think, just, you know, add some fuel to the primary challenger Parker Fairbairns campaign.

Who ran once before.

In 2022.

Sure so he's you know, done this You know, it's not his first rodeo and, you know, he even we don't know if the representative Friske, sent out this tweet from a jail cell or if it was scheduled near his campaign Senate.

But even at this past 3 a.m. or close to 4 a.m. in the morning was tweeting about his primary challenger.

So perhaps for him.

I think it goes beyond this district.

I talked to a Democratic consultant last night who said brace yourself for this.

There will be mug shots of this representative on brochures going into swing districts.

And the theme will be, you can't trust the Republicans.

You're not going to say that.

I don't think it's not that I don't know.

That's been talked about.

People vote on the choice in front of them.

Not some state representative.

All they got to do is pick off one or two Z. I don't here's where I think it could have a broader effect that this is very premature.

As of the taping of this broadcast, Neil Friske has not been charged with anything.

The police have put out some information indicating what might have happened and.

A felony.

Felony level offense.

But again, the Ingham County prosecutor's not brought charges, but let's just suppose he does get charged, he does get convicted and he has to resign.

Now, all of a sudden, the House Democrats actually do have a vote to spare because it will only take 55 votes to pass items in the legislature in of 56.

And right now that's a pretty big deal.

So if we get to a, say, the lame duck session and the House is down, a member because Representative Friske is gone, that really does change the playing field.

Why does he have to resign?

Well, the tradition would be if you are convicted of a felony level offense, you do resign in Michigan or you're expelled.

But of course.

There's nothing.

But do we with that the political atmosphere out there on alleged wrongdoing by any politician, that bar has been lowered.

This is not 30 years ago.

He's not going anywhere unless he's convicted of something.

Let's be real clear about that.

That's that's nothing's going to happen.

But if if he again, a lot of things have to happen first.

He hasn't even been charged yet.

But if he were convicted of a felony, if any member were convicted of a felony, the tradition is they are gone.

That that is not been the case where we've seen somebody convicted of a felony allowed to continue serving.

to Zachs point well, we just don't know enough yet.

But the implications like like Jonathan and Zach both of said could be very big.

But it's too early to tell.

It just is.

Do you think the Democrats will use this issue?

I think I got a no vote over here.

I wasn't sure.

I again, I don't think we know enough yet.

And I think it's a tenuous conversation to have.

I think we just have to see more, see who was involved, what the actual facts were.

I know you don't like to keep hearing that, but I think we have to just wait and see how some of this comes down.

I do think in terms of though, the primary that is happening, Jonathan and I actually both were in that district separately last week.

We're kind of talking like over here.

And I mean, the amount of Friske signs all over the place like and a thousand times more than Trump signs, which I was just a whole nother aside.

But the Fairbairn signs, there were a number of them as well.

And so I think it's going to be interesting.

There's been this whole conversation about Friske and being part of the Freedom Caucus, right, who sort of refuses to vote on anything.

And so Fairbairns is sort of saying it's not so much the conservative nature, but I want to go to Lansing and actually work for you.

I agree with you guys that you have to be conservative on this because we do not have enough information.

We agree on that, right?

Oh, yeah.

Okay.

But you also in this business, you always have to look at the worst case scenario.

Okay.

You had a gun involved, allegedly.

You had a woman who was at a local bar, a dancing bar, should we say, who knows whether Why are you smiling?

There are other issues here as well.

Well, yeah, broken record.

But again, we don't know all the details.

We might learn some very soon, maybe even.

But again, by the time people see this episode.

But, you know, to your earlier point, Tim, about, you know, this being different times, I mean, I think the response we saw from the Friske campaign was very indicative in the where politics are in 2024, they put out a statement suggesting, you know, saying we don't know a whole lot.

But, yes, Neil Friske is known to exercise his second Amendment rights and then launched into a litany of conspiracy theories about the timing of this.

Media knew first.

Right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

No effort to say this is a serious issue.

We're taking it seriously.

Nothing remotely resembling any acknowledgment of, you know, saying they're sorry about apologies or anything.

Doubling down for the gun that that he, you know, practices his second Amendment rights.

Well, as Governor Granholm used to say.

Stay tuned.

Stay tuned.

Stay tuned for this.

We have Hill Harper on the other end of the line here.

Mr. Harper, good morning and welcome to Off the Record.

Great to see you.

Morning.

Thanks for doing the program.

Let's cut to the chase.

The mainstream media has anointed your opponent as the frontrunner.

Present your argument for us to tell us that that story is just dead wrong.

Well, it's this is a turnout race and our candidacy.

We have most of the the real grass roots enthusiasm.

I've been so proud of how many folks just come out to our events who were meeting with, who were having and and you're talking about building coalitions.

And I think that when we think about the Democratic Party, where the big tent party where everybody's welcome, so this idea of we're bringing African-American voters out and together we're bringing Arab, Muslim and immigrant voters out together, we're bringing progressive.

Just got the the endorsement by the Michigan Democratic Party Progressive Caucus, which I think is fantastic.

Environmentalists, moms, moms are out.

Moms demand Action in that group.

And so, you know, it's fantastic to me because we're truly representative of what the Democratic Party and the best of what the Democratic Party is.

And that's a lot of diversity, a lot of different ideas and thoughts about what's going to make this state better, our country better.

And we're the campaign with the momentum and the energy.

Well, would you concede that she is the front runner?

She has more money and she has more numbers in the polls than you do, which does not make her.

Absolutely.

She has a lot more money.

But the thing is, money is not votes.

You know, people vote polls.

Does the media have this story wrong?

Is she not the front runner?

Well, she's the front runner, without question.

I mean, she's the establishment candidate.

And so, you know, that that but see that's the interesting thing when we think about what November is going to look like and we think about the need of what we need to do as Democrats to win in November, particularly with straight party voting, particularly with RFK Junior on the ballot.

You know, I got a call from a consultant group just about two weeks ago saying, wow, you're going to you're going to like what you're about to hear.

And they basically said that Biden-Harris Harper ticket is a much stronger ticket in November then And Biden, Harris, my opponent ticket.

And the reason why is because we have to turn out those 110, 120,000 uncommitted votes.

We have to turn out in big numbers, African-Americans, to win this state.

We have to turn out progressives.

We have to turn out these groups that my campaign is speaking to and bringing out and bringing the energy out of.

And my opponent's campaign isn't doing it to that degree.

Now, certainly, if it's a money race, I lose.

No question.

If it's polls, I lose.

But look what happened in Maryland quite recently.

Angela Alsobrooks was outspent 10 to 1 by a sitting congressperson and the polls had her down seven points on Election Day.

She won by 12.

And so we got to remember that people are the ones that vote and we have to tell the true story.

And that's why it's so disappointing that my opponent has pulled out of multiple debates that we had on the books.

And we scheduled.

You know, I think that folks want to be informed voters and we need to be lighting up and engaging with voters to get them excited about voting.

August six in the primary, but also voting in November.

And I think taking a page out of Trump's book and refusing to debate because for the reasons you mentioned, there's a frontrunner status is is is a shame because it's disrespectful to the voter.

But it's also hurts us in terms of just momentum and voter engagement.

Now, let's see what Miss Clark has to say.

Well, so let's talk a little bit about what voters might hear at those debates.

Can you give me two really specific policy examples that you different that you're different from?

Elissa Slotkin.

Sure, sure, sure.

Here, here are the two that are very recent votes.

She just voted very recently to sanction.

She voted with MAGA Republicans actually to sanction the ICC and then them deeming Netanyahu's actions as crimes against humanity and human rights violations.

And and that's a vote that I think is wrong, just patently wrong and false.

Another is voting in favor of Visa 702, which allows for warrantless surveillance of American citizens.

I think that's wrong.

I think that we all understand that, that the folks that get targeted the most when it's warrantless surveillance are folks from the Muslim and Arab community, folks from the black community, etc..

I think that's wrong.

And then, you know, we can go to 2020 and she voted against student loan debt relief.

You know, that's a vote that I wouldn't take.

Right.

So those are just three examples of of clear votes that I would be completely on the other side of.

Let's talk about when you said that you'd be the better general election candidate then Elissa Slotkin, couldn't she say, hey, look, I ran in a district that is a pure 50/50 district?

Donald Trump actually won it once.

I've shown a knack for being able to win really tough national he focused expensive races, and that's what the Michigan U.S. Senate race is going to be.

How do you respond to that?

Sure.

You know, I've traveled all over the state.

I've been to all 83 counties, talk with voters everywhere.

And one thing that I keep hearing is that they don't want their choice for this open U.S. Senate seat to be somebody from the CIA and somebody from the FBI.

And they'd like to have a choice of folks with different sets of lived experience.

I mean, just think about this.

If I'm elected to the U.S. Senate, I'd be the only active union member in the U.S. Senate.

I'd be the only and the only one of two parents of an elementary age child.

I'd be one of very few small business owners.

You know, I keep hearing from folks that they don't want their choices to be folks that have primarily made their career as government employees and politicians.

The Senate needs more diversity.

And I'm not just talking about race.

I'm talking about lived experience and a different viewpoint or filter through which folks fight.

And folks know that, you know, I won't be bought, bossed, bullied.

I'm not taking any corporate PAC money.

I'm not I'm not part of the machine that they know I'll be fighting for them as people.

More so than any kind of big donor list or any group like that.

And I think that they want that choice.

They want that kind of choice.

Mr. Harper, Donald Trump was in Detroit just this last weekend, and he said something to the effect of he's been the best president for black Americans since Abraham Lincoln.

And he also attempted to court, you know, black voters in the city.

What do you make of those comments and these overtures by president former President Trump?

I'll tell you, you can you can go to my social media and see I went down to actually protest him coming to the church and and I went down there to the church.

Okay.

My dogs barking a little bit.

All right.

We're down to the church tomorrow, then I've thought and watch this.

I thought there would be a whole lot more people there.

A whole lot a whole lot of Democrats there to protest because the the fact that less than, you know, three and a half years ago, around 3 a.m., he had the audacity to try to disenfranchize and literally said that we were scamming 200,000 voters.

And now he comes back to ask for those same votes.

And not only is it wrong, is it inappropriate?

It's it's something that we have to check.

And so I went down there to check it.

I wasn't going to let it go unchecked.

And I was really surprised just to see that there were very few Dems down there doing.

There was a there were a few there.

There's a wonderful lady that said, I support you, glad you're there.

And she's handing things out.

But the point being is that what we have to check behavior that's that is clearly wrong.

And and if we keep allowing these things to happen and go unchecked, particularly even the media, we have to say what it is.

And so I'm doing my best to do that.

And we cannot allow him to come in here and in one breath say that you're going to disenfranchize 200,000 votes and say that we're scamming that there.

He actually said that they were more votes than people here and then we were scamming.

You know, it makes me angry and folks aren't falling for it.

Whatever they try to say in the media, the black community, black Michiganders are not falling and they're not voting for Donald Trump.

Let's be very clear.

Mr. Harper, you recently signed on to the the term limits pledge.

One of the things we talk a lot about bringing sort of our congressional delegation in is dollars right from D.C. to Michigan.

And so, you know, somewhat importance is seniority and having folks be able to be chairs of, for instance, Debbie Stabenow of the Agriculture Committee and thus the farm bill.

I'm curious about your thoughts about seniority vis a vis signing that term limits pledge and what that would mean for Michigan.

You've got to remember, it's not term limits for just Michigan senators.

It'd be term limits for everybody.

So so the seniority question is really not not really a part of that.

The idea, though, here is if we're truly got rid of Citizens United, we wouldn't need term limits.

Now, the problem is, is that there's so much dark money in in our politics that it makes it almost impossible for an incumbent to be defeated in the United States Senate.

And and the fact is that barrier to entry is anti-democratic.

Our I believe our democracy functions best when there's an exchange of ideas, when there's multiple people who are actually able to run for an office and legitimately have a chance to win.

Now, here in Michigan, we have an open U.S. Senate seat and arguably the first truly competitive Democratic primary for an open U.S. Senate seemed like 24 years.

It's really incredible.

Right.

And so we need I believe that that folks want to see the best people representing them and they want to have an opportunity to vote for the best people and have an opportunity for those people to win.

And given the barriers to entry specifically around money that we have.

Certainly term limits isn't what I want.

I want to end Citizens United, but short of ending Citizens United.

Term limits are actually a good thing, and most people are actually for them.

Mr. Harper, quickly, you're agreed graciously to do an off the record Overtime segment.

But quickly, will you sign the no tax pledge?

If elected, you will not vote to raise taxes?

I won't vote to raise taxes.

No.

The money's there.

So you would you would sign that pledge?

Yes.

So so let's let's break this down.

During the Obama years that the national federal budget was around $4.2 trillion, 4.4, that went up to 6.2.

Now.

Now we're announcing a $7.2 trillion budget.

The money's there.

It's about how we spend the money.

And this is what I talk about with voters all the time.

I asked him the question, would you want would you rather have your tax dollars go overseas to fund endless wars, or would you rather have it spent here for universal health care that includes mental health?

Mr. Mr. Harper okay.

We got to take a break here.

For close credits.

Go, go feed your dog, and then we'll be back with more off the record.

I'm going to go to the bathroom so I don't know.

See on the other side.

Stay to go to wkar.org for OT with Mr. Harper.

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Learn more at Martinwaymire.com For more off the record, visit wkar.org Michigan public television stations have contributed to the production costs of off the record