♪ >> TORI: I AM TORY BEDFORD.

TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," I WILL TALK TO REPORTER LAUREN CHOOLJIAN ON HER EFFORTS TO EXPOSE SEXUAL ABUSE IN THE STATE PROCESS BIGGEST RECOVERY CENTER ANY HARASSMENT SHE HAS FACED SINCE.

AND CLEMENTINA CHERY OF THE LEWIS DUBON PEACE INSTITUTE.

BROKEN WINDOWS, VULGAR GRAFFITI AND THREATS OF MORE TO COME.

REPORTER LAUREN CHOOLJIAN HAS FACED ALL OF IT SINCE SHE PUBLISHED A DOMINANT EXPOSE OF A PUBLIC FIGURE IN THE STATE ADDICTION RECOVERY COMMUNITY LAST YEAR.

THE ATTACKS HAVE BEEN FOLLOWED BY ILLEGAL ONES IN AN EFFORT TO DISCREDIT HER REPORTING TRIVIAL YEARS OF SEXUAL ABUSE ALLEGATIONS AGAINST ERIC SPOFFORD, THE FOUNDER OF NEW HAMPSHIRE'’S LARGEST REHAB NETWORK.

SPOFFORD REPORTEDLY SENT TO LAUREN, HER AT HER STATION AND HER SOURCES AS A RESULT MESSAGES PRESSURING THEM TO RESTART THE STORY -- RETRACT THE STORY.

WHEN THEY DIDN'’T, HE SUED THEM FOR LIBEL.

CICADAS CHARGED THREE MEN FOR CONSPIRING TO HARASS LAUREN AND HER EDITOR REPORTEDLY AT THE REQUEST OF A CLOSE ASSOCIATE OF ERIC SPOFFORD.

AS BOTH CASES PLAY OUT, LARD HAS EXPANDED ON HER REPORTING IN NEW PODCAST SERIES CALLED "THE 13TH STEP," THANKS FOR JOINING ME NOW.

I CAN'’T IMAGINE WHAT YOU ARE DEALING WITH NOW, HOW CHAOTIC IT IS.

THAT WANT TO TAKE A STEP BACK AND TALK ABOUT THE TITLE OF THIS PODCAST, THIS CONCEPT OF TH "THE 13TH STEP, WHICH I WAS NOT FAMILIAR WITH.

LAUREN: ME NEITHER.

I WAS STRAPPED THAT THIS IS SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN GOING ON SINCE THE BEGINNING OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS.

THE 12 STEP PROGRAM IS OFTEN TIMES THE PLACE WHERE PEOPLE HAVE FOUND RECOVERY.

BUT IT TURNS OUT THERE IS THIS PHRASE IS CALLED THE 13TH STEP, WHERE SOMEONE WHO IS FURTHER ALONG IN THEIR RECOVERY, INSERT VERSION HERE, -- INSERT THE VERB HERE, PREYS ON SOMEONE EARLY IN THEIR RECOVERY.

EARLY RECOVERY IS AN EXTREMELY VULNERABLE TIME.

WE TALK ABOUT ACTIVE ADDICTION AND WE KNOW HOW DIFFICULT THE BRAIN IS AT TIMES, TRYING TO SORT OUT THE SUBSTANCES.

PEOPLE WITH ACTIVE ADDICTION ARE STRUGGLING, OF COURSE, BUT MANY ARE TRYING TO YOUR FOOT IN, AND ADDICTION AS WE KNOW IS A CHRONIC DISEASE AND VERY COMPLICATED.

WHEN YOU ARE FINALLY ABLE TO TRY AND FIND RECOVERY, YOUR INTERVERTEBRAL POSITION WHERE EVERYTHING YOU HAVE BEEN TRYING TO NUMB WITH DRUGS AND ALCOHOL IS IN FRONT OF YOUR FACE, EVEN HAVE THE COPING MECHANISM YOU HAVE BEEN USING FOR LONG, AND SUDDENLY YOU MIGHT BE DEALING WITH A CONSENT SITUATION WHERE YOU FEEL THAT YOU DON'’T EVEN KNOW YOU ARE AND CONSENT CAN BE COMPLICATED.

SO THIS IDEA OF 13TH STEP IN, IF YOU ASK ANYONE IN RECOVERY, THEY KNOW WHAT IT IS.

IT TOOK ME YEARS TO UNDERSTAND THAT WHAT I WAS LOOKING AT HIS IS IT IS AN UNFORTUNATE PHENOMENON THAT MANY PEOPLE IN RECOVERY HAVE EXPERIENCED.

TORI: ERIC SPOFFORD.

WHO IS HE?

LAUREN: HE IS FROM NEW HAMPSHIRE.

NEW HAMPSHIRE HAS HAD A REALLY HARD TIME WITH THE OPIATE CRISIS.

WE WERE ONE OF THE STATES HARDEST HIT UP THE OUTSIDE AND WE ARE STILL DEALING WITH IT.

ERIC WAS A GUY WHO EVERYBODY LOOKS TO FOR A SOLUTION.

IN 2008 HE STARTED A SMALL SOBER HOME AND HE DID THAT BECAUSE HE HIMSELF IS IN RECOVERY AND DEVOTED HIS LIFE TO HELPING OTHER PEOPLE FIND RECOVERY.

THAT SMALL SOBER HOME GREW INTO A NETWORK OF RECOVERY CENTERS.

THAT IS THE BIGGEST ADDICTION COVERAGE NETWORK WE HAVE IN NEW HAMPSHIRE STILL TO THIS DAY.

ERIC HAS SINCE SOLD THE COMPANY, BUT DURING THE TIME WHEN HE WAS FOUNDER AND CEO, I LEARNED THAT THIS POSITIVE RECOVERY STORY THAT HE PUT AT THE CENTER OF HIS BUSINESS, THAT HE DEVOTED HIS LIFE TO HELPING PEOPLE, THAT IS NOT THE ONLY STORY ABOUT ERIC SPOFFORD OUT THERE.

I HAVE GRANTED DOZENS OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE SHARED WITH ME ALLEGATIONS OF WHETHER IT IS SEXUAL MISCONDUCT THAT THEY EXPERIENCED OR A TOXIC WORKPLACE.

I HAD A STORY AND LATER IN THE PODCAST THAT MULTIPLE PEOPLE, CREDIT RECOVERY CENTERS BECAUSE OF AN ALLEGATION THAT INVOLVED ERIC SPOFFORD, THAT INVOLVED SEXUAL MISCONDUCT, WHERE HE SEXUALLY ASSAULTED A WOMAN WHO WORKED FOR HIM WHO USED TO BE A CLIENT AT THE GRANITE RECOVERY CENTER.

IT IS A COMPLICATED STORY.

IT HAS TAKEN ME YEARS TO REPORT IT.

A LOT OF IT STARTED WITH THE INITIAL PUBLISHING OF THE NEWS WORRY ABOUT THE ALLEGATIONS I HAD FOUND.

ERIC THREW A LAWYER, DENIED THE ALLEGATIONS OF MISCONDUCT AND ALSO THREATENED TO SUE US IF WE PURSUED THE STORY.

OF COURSE WE PUBLISHED THE STORY AND LIKE YOU SAID, ERIC SPOFFORD SUED ME, TWO OF MY COLLEAGUES AND SOURCES FOR DEFAMATION.

SO IT HAS BEEN A LOT.

TORI: IT HAS BEEN AT LEAST THREE YEARS OF REPORTING.

LAUREN: YES, IT STARTED IN DECEMBER OF 2028 WHEN I GOT A TAPE ABOUT THE MISCONDUCT ALLEGATIONS.

I WOULD NOT HAVE GOTTEN THE TIP IF IT WEREN'’T FOR A STORY ABOUT EDIT INCLUDED OUTBREAK AND 2020, ALL OF US WERE DOING OUTBREAK STORIES AT THAT POINT.

BECAUSE THEY WERE HELPING MANY PEOPLE WITH SUBSTANCE ABUSE DISORDER, AN OUTBREAK AT THIS FACILITY WAS NEWSWORTHY.

WHEN I DID THE STORY, I RECEIVED AN ASTOUNDING TAPE FROM A FORMER CLINICIAN WHO ALLEGED SHE KNEW ABOUT MISCONDUCT ALLEGATIONS, AND THAT SHE AND OTHER PEOPLE QUIT BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY HAD HEARD THAT WAS DECEMBER OF 2020.

I HAD TO DO A LOT OF WORK TO CORROBORATE THESE STORIES.

AS YOU KNOW FROM REPORTING HAVE DONE YOU DON'’T JUST GET AN ALLEGATION AND PUT IT ON THE AIR, YOU HAVE TO DO THE BEST YOU CAN TO BACK-CHECK SOMETHING THAT OFTEN TIMES THERE ISN'’T PHYSICAL EVIDENCE.

SO THE PROCESS THAT WE CORROBORATE THESE THINGS IS, DO THIS PERSON WHO EXPERIENCED THIS TELL ANYONE?

WHEN DID THEY TELL THEM?

CAN YOU TELL ME SOMETHING THAT SHOWS YOU WHERE THEY'’RE AT THE TIME YOU SAY YOU ARE?

ONE OF THE ALLEGATIONS WAS FROM A WOMAN NAMED ELIZABETH WHO SAID SHE RECEIVED EXPLICIT SNAPCHATS ERIC THE DAY AFTER SHE LEFT HIS TREATMENT CENTER.

SHE SAYS ERIC PAID FOR HER TO ATTEND THE TREATMENT CENTER.

SO THERE WAS A REALLY TOUGH POWER DYNAMIC THERE.

NOW SNAPCHATS DOESN'’T SAVE THE PICTURES.

SO I COULDN'’T SEE THE PICTURES, BUT SHE TOLD PEOPLE AT THE TIME.

I WAS ABLE TO COLLABORATE FROM DOCUMENTATION AT GRANITE RECOVERY CENTERS THAT SHE ATTENDED WHEN SHE SAID SHE ATTENDED SO THERE ARE WAYS TO CORROBORATE THESE THINGS.

BUT THAT IS WHY IT TOOK SO LONG, FROM DECEMBER 2020 UNTIL NOW.

TORI: I WANT TO GET INTO THE PROCESS OF COLLABORATINGM BECAUSE I IMAGINE THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE YOU SPOKE TO WHOSE ACCOUNT YOU ARE NOT ABLE TO USE.

IT IS FRUSTRATING, RIGHT, HAVE SPOKEN TO SOME OF THE PEOPLE AND HAVE PEOPLE WHO ARE CORROBORATED AND VERIFIED, THEIR CREDIBILITY THEN QUESTIONED.

BECAUSE THOSE ARE THE ONES WHO ACTUALLY MADE IT ONTO PRINT OR TO THE PODCAST.

I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE ALLEGATIONS THEMSELVES.

YOU MENTIONED A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE SNAPSHOT AND THE GRAPHIC IMAGES THAT HE SENT -- SNAPCHAT, AND THE GRAPHIC IMAGES HE SENT.

WHAT OTHER STORIES HAVE YOU HEARD FROM SURVIVORS?

LAUREN: PEOPLE HERE IN THE FORECAST ABOUT EMPLOYEE A.

WE USE A LOT OF PSEUDONYMS IN THE PODCAST AND IN THE INITIAL REPORTING, BECAUSE PEOPLE WERE AFRAID OF RETALIATION OF ANY KIND FOR COMING FORWARD.

SO EMPLOYEE A WORKED OUT ONE OF THEIR FACILITIES.

SHE RECEIVED SIMILAR SNAPCHATS WHILE WORKING FOR ERIC BUT ELIZABETH ALSO RECEIVED, AND SHE ALSO TOLD ME THAT THERE WAS A DAY WHEN SHE WAS WORKING DURING THE WORKDAY, ERIC CALLED HER IN FOR A MEETING AT HIS OFFICE, AND SHE ALLEGES HE SEXUALLY ASSAULTED HER.

THIS IS IN HIS OFFICE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE WORKDAY.

PEOPLE SAID WE WERE WORKING RIGHT OUTSIDE THE DOOR.

AND SHE TOLD PEOPLE THAT THIS HAPPENED AND I WAS ABLE TO CORROBORATE IT WITH THEM.

OBVIOUSLY THAT IS A REALLY HARROWING EXPERIENCE.

TO SHARE IT WITH A STRANGER AND THEN BE WORRIED ABOUT RETALIATION, THAT IS A LOT.

THE LEGAL RETALIATION THEY WORRIED ABOUT, THAT WE GET ENDED UP FACING, IT IS LIKE THEIR FEARS CAME TRUE.

THE DAY AFTER THAT STORY, MAY NEWS STORY WITH EMPLOYEE A'’S ALLEGATIONS, SHE RECEIVED A LITIGATION HOLD LETTER.

YOU MIGHT BE IN LITIGATION SO YOU SHOULDN'’T DELETE ANYTHING -- I DIDN'’T KNOW WHAT THAT WAS AND SHE DIDN'’T KNOW WHAT THAT WAS.

WHEN YOU SEE THIS COMPLICATED LEGALESE ON YOUR PHONE IT'’S, LIKE, EMMA BEING SUED RIGHT NOW?

SHE HAD JUST DONE THIS COURAGEOUS THING OF BEING COURAGEOUS AND COMING FORWARD.

THAT IS A LOT FOR A PERSON TO EXPERIENCE.

THAT IS ONE ALLEGATION.

ANOTHER ALLEGATION IS FROM A WOMAN I DID NOT SPEAK WITH THAT FORMER EMPLOYEES AT GRANITE RECOVERY CENTERS TOLD ME THAT SHE TOLD THEM DIRECTLY THAT SHE AND ERIC HAD A SEXUAL RELATIONSHIP THAT WAS NOT ALWAYS CONSENSUAL -- OF COURSE, THAT IS SEXUAL ASSAULT -- AND SHE WAS A FORMER CLIENT OF GRANITE RECOVERY CENTERS AS WELL.

ERIC WOULD LATER TELL A COLLEAGUE THAT I WORKED WITH THAT HE SETTLED WITH HER.

SO THESE ARE BIG, SERIOUS ALLEGATIONS, SERIOUS THINGS IN ANY INDUSTRY.

BUT I WANTED TO TAKE THE TIME AND CARE WITHIN THESE ALLEGATIONS BECAUSE IN THIS INDUSTRY, IT IS AN INDUSTRY SUPPOSED TO HELP PEOPLE GET WELL IN A PUBLIC HEALTH CRISIS.

THE STAKES COULD NOT BE HIGHER.

TORI: I WANTED TO ASK ABOUT WHAT IS BEING DONE, BECAUSE ONE OF YOUR SOURCES MENTIONED SHE HAD PREVIOUSLY HAD A CONVERSATION WITH AN FBI AGENT, AND THE FBI AGENT SAID, YOU HAVE TO TAKE THAT UP WITH THE COPS.

AND I THINK SHE SAID, "YOU ARE THE COPS,", LIKE, WHO WILL HELP ME IN THIS SCENARIO?

SO HOW PREVALENT IS THIS ISSUE, DO YOU THINK THIS MAN'’S BEYOND GRANITE RECOVERY CENTERS?

LAUREN: OH, WITHOUT A DOUBT.

AS I STARTED TO TALK TO OTHER PEOPLE ABOUT WHAT I HAD FOUND, I UNFORTUNATELY HEARD FROM OTHER WOMEN WHO HAD NOT GONE TO GRANITE RECOVERY CENTERS, BUT DESCRIBED A SITUATION WHERE ANYTIME THEY WOULD ENTER A FACILITY THAT WAS TO HELP THEM, I HEARD ALLEGATIONS ABOUT A FOOD PANTRY, WOMEN, ALLEGATIONS ABOUT THE GUY WHO DROVE THEM TO DETOX FOR THE FIRST TIME.

YOU CAN HEAR THIS IN THE PODCAST.

UNFORTUNATELY, SEXUAL MISCONDUCT IS PREVALENT, AS WE KNOW AS WOMEN, EVERYWHERE THAT ARE ESPECIALLY HERE, BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE IN AN EXCEEDINGLY VULNERABLE POSITION.

THEY ARE OFTEN NOT BELIEVED.

THEY ARE NOT A PERSON THE SOCIETY -- WITH ACTIVE ADDITION -- THAT PERSON THAT SOCIETY OFTEN BELIEVES, UNFORTUNATELY.

WE HAVE LEARNED IN THE METOO MOVEMENT THAT OBSTACLE ON OBSTACLE ON OBSTACLE IS STACKED AGAINST THE PERSON MAKING SUCH A BIG ALLEGATION.

WELL, TRIED BEING A PERSON WHO HAS SUBSTANCE USE DISORDER, WHO OFTEN TIMES ISN'’T BELIEVED BECAUSE SOMETIMES IN ACTIVE ADDICTION, YOU HAVE LIED.

IT IS AN EXCEEDINGLY COMPLICATED SITUATION.

I'’VE ALWAYS BELIEVED THAT, THAT MEANS WE NEED TO TAKE EXTRA CARE TO HELP PEOPLE DEAL WITH THIS CRIME.

IT'’S A LOT.

AND NO, THERE IS NOT ENOUGH OVERSIGHT, AND, NO, THERE AREN'’T ENOUGH EASY PATHWAYS TO ACCOUNTABILITY.

SO, YOU TALK ABOUT EMPLOYEE A, IT IS TRUE THAT IT WAS IN THE FBI'’S JURISDICTION TO TAKE ON THE SEXUAL ASSAULT ALLEGATION, THAT WHEN YOU'’RE IN A POSITION WHERE THE PERSON YOU ARE ALLEGING IS MORE POWERFUL THAN YOU, IT FEELS LIKE YOU DON'’T KNOW WHICH PATHWAY TO TAKE OR WHO WILL BELIEVE YOU.

TORI: AND THAT HAS BEEN THE ARGUMENT'’S PART HAS USED THAT THESE ARE PEOPLE IN RECOVERY AND NOT CREDIBLE.

WHICH IS SOMETHING UNBELIEVABLE TO SAY WHEN YOU HAVE GONE THROUGH THAT IN ITSELF.

HE HAS MADE THE STATEMENTS.

FOR YOU AS A JOURNALIST, YOUR RESPONSIBILITY IS TO TRUST AND VERIFY.

LAUREN: RIGHT.

TORI: THE ISSUE OF CONSENT -- I KNOW THAT YOU HAVE DONE A LOT OF POLITICAL REPORTING -- THAT THIS IS METOO KIND OF REPORTING, AND ALSO THE ISSUE OF PEOPLE EXPERIENCING SUBSTANCE USE DISORDER, THERE IS A LOT OF -- TO NAVIGATE IN TERMS OF ESTABLISHING TRUST, AND MAKE SURE THAT YOU ARE NOT COERCING PEOPLE TO COME FORWARD.

LAUREN: RIGHT.

THE THING THAT I FOCUS ON IS TELLING PEOPLE THAT IT IS THEIR CHOICE.

OF COURSE, AS A REPORTER I WANT MANY PEOPLE TO COME FORWARD FOR THE STORY.

THE MORE PEOPLE IN THE STORY, THE MORE CREDIBLE.

BUT I NEED SOURCES TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THAT WOULD LOOK LIKE.

NOW I DID NOT TELL THEM THAT I THOUGHT MY HOUSE WOULD GET VANDALIZED, BUT WHAT I CAN TELL THEM IS THAT IT IS ABSOLUTELY YOUR CHOICE.

IT'’S NOT GOOD FOR ME AND GOOD FOR YOU IF YOU DECIDE YOU ARE NOT COMFORTABLE COMING FORWARD.

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING FOR ME IS TO ESTABLISH TRUST.

AND I WANTED SOURCES TO UNDERSTAND THAT IN THE POLITICAL REPORTING SITUATION, IF THE MAYOR SAYS TO ME, WE ARE ON THE RECORD AND THEN LATER CALLS ME AND SAYS WE ARE NOT, THAT DOESN'’T FLY WITH ME.

THAT IT'’S A PERSON IN A POSITION OF POWER.

IN THIS CASE, THERE WERE MANY SITUATIONS WHERE WOMEN WANTED TO SHARE SOMETHING WITH ME, DID INTERVIEWS WITH ME, THEN DECIDED THEY COULDN'’T DO IT.

AND FRANKLY, THAT IS THEIR DECISION.

IT IS THEIR STORY.

AND AS DIFFICULT AS THAT IS, I JUST HAD TO ACCEPT THAT BECAUSE THAT IS THEIR LIFE AND IT IS A TOUGH ONE.

YOU GET REALLY CLOSE AND SPEND ALL OF THIS TIME, BUT IT WAS IMPORTANT TO ME THAT PEOPLE KNEW WHAT THEY WERE GETTING INTO.

SOMETIMES THAT TIME DAYS OFF, SO TO SPEAK.

I HAD A NUMBER HR DIRECTOR GO ON RECORD AND USE HER WHOLE NAME AND SHE WAS AN EXCEEDINGLY IMPORTANT SOURCE BECAUSE SHE HAD NOTES THAT BACKED UP SOME OF THE CONVERSATIONS SHE HAD.

EVEN WITH THAT STRONG CORROBORATION OF WHAT SHE WAS SHARING, IT TOOK HER OVER A YEAR TO DECIDE THAT WAS SOMETHING SHE WAS WILLING TO DO, BECAUSE SHE WAS AFRAID OF LEGAL RETALIATION.

IT'’S A LUXURY THAT MY STATION, A SMALL STATION, AFFORDED ME THE TIME TO DO THAT, BUT THAT IS WHAT YOU NEED IN ORDER TO GAIN HIS TRUST.

TORI: THAT LOOMING THREAT OF THIS POWERFUL PERSON RETALIATING, THAT DID SEEM TO PAN OUT, RIGHT?

LET'’S TALK ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED AFTER YOU PUBLISHED YOUR FIRST STORY OF THE ATTACKS ON YOU AND YOUR FAMILY.

LAUREN: SO, THE STORY CAME OUT IN MARCH OF 2022.

THEN IN APRIL I GOT A CALL FROM MY PARENTS THAT THEIR HOUSE HAD BEEN VANDALIZED.

I CALLED MY BOSS TELL HIM ABOUT IT.

TURNED OUT HIS HOUSE HAD BEEN MINIMIZED.

THEN A THIRD HOME ARE USED TO LIVING IN ANDOVER COMPANY HAMPSHIRE WAS ALSO VANDALIZED.

THE C-WORD SPRAY-PAINTED ON THE DOOR, IN MY PARENTS'’ CASE, ON THEIR GARAGE.

A BRICS RUNNING TO THE HOUSE THAT BROKE THEIR WINDOW.

SAME IN THE HOUSE IN HANOVER.

PRETTY AWFUL.

I THINK THAT IS AN UNDERSTATEMENT.

NOT KNOWING WHY OR HOW OR WHAT DO YOU EVEN DO.

I HAD NEVER FACED ANYTHING LIKE THIS IN MY 10-ISH YEARS.

WE FACE HARASSMENT AS JOURNALISTS, BUT NEVER LIKE THIS.

A MONTH LATER I AM OUT OF TOWN AND MY FATHER CALLS AND SAYS IT HAPPENED AGAIN AT THEIR HOUSE.

AND MY HUSBAND CHECKS THE SECURITY CAMERAS AND, SURE ENOUGH, A BRICK HAD BEEN THROWN THROUGH THE WINDOW AND THE WORDS "JUST THE BEGINNING" HAD BEEN SPRAY-PAINTED.

TORI: YOU HAVE A YOUNG DAUGHTER WAS THERE A POINT WHERE YOU THOUGHT MAYBE I WILL NOT BE CONTINUING THIS?

THE U.S. ATTORNEY'’S OFFICE FOR MASSACHUSETTS HAS NOW CHARGED THREE MEN BUT I THINK THERE IS STILL THIS THREAT.

THEDO YOU FEEL SAFE OR PROTECTIVE OF HER, DID HE THINK ABOUT NOT CONTINUING TO WORK ON IT?

LAUREN: YOU KNOW, I NEVER CONSIDERED STOPPING.

NOT BECAUSE IT'’S NOT SCARY, NOT BECAUSE IT'’S NOT INTIMIDATING.

IT IS INTIMIDATING.

AND INTENSE.

IT WAS REALLY HARD ON MY SOURCES .

I HAD A CONVERSATION WITH EMPLOYEE A WHO MADE THE SEXUAL ASSAULT ALLEGATION AND SHE SAID THE SCARIEST THING THAT HAPPENED WAS THAT THEY CAME TO HER YOUR HOUSE.

THAT IS A PROFOUND THING FOR A REPORTER TO SHARE WITH HER SOURCE.

TORI: YOU DON'’T WANT TO BECOME THE STORY.

LAUREN: CERTAINLY NOT.

SO, THAT IS REALLY DIFFICULT.

IT WAS DIFFICULT FOR MY PARENTS.

IT IS STILL DIFFICULT.

BUT AS YOU SAY, FEDERAL INVESTIGATORS PUT TOGETHER QUITE A CASE AGAINST THREE MEN.

I KNOW THE INVESTIGATION IS ONGOING SO THERE'’S ONLY SO MUCH THAT I CAN SAY, BUT NO, THIS REPORTING IS IMPORTANT AND IT WOULD NOT HAVE PUT IT OUT THERE IF I DIDN'’T CORROBORATE IT.

YOU UNDERSTAND HOW COMPLICATED THIS KIND OF REPORTING IS, IT DOESN'’T JUST HAPPEN OVERNIGHT.

MY LAWYERS LOOKED AT IT.

I HAVE FACT CHECKERS.

THIS ISN'’T JUST SOMETHING THAT I THREW OUT THERE.

TORI: NOW, IT IS A YEARS-LONG EFFORT THAT CULMINATED IN THE PODCAST "THE 13TH STEP."

THANK YOU SO MUCH, LAUREN CHOOLJIAN.

NEXT UP, WE HEAR EVERY YEAR THAT VIOLENT CRIME SPIKED EVERY YEAR.

LAST YEAR OR 12 PEOPLE WERE KILLED IN BOSTON BETWEEN JUNE AND AUGUST, MORE THAN THE ENTIRE FIRST HALF OF THE YEAR.

AND THIS YEAR, MURDERS ARE ON THE RISE, PROMPTING THE CITY TO UP ITS EFFORTS WITH AN EXPANSION OF SUMMER YOUTH PROGRAMS.

BUT COMMUNITY LEADERS QUESTION WHETHER THOSE EFFORTS WILL MAKE A DIFFERENCE OR ADDRESS THE PROBLEM.

THEY HAVE RAISED QUESTIONS ABOUT THE ROLE OF POLICE, AS THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'’S OFFICE INVESTIGATES ALLEGATIONS OF RACIAL BIAS.

MY NECK TEST HAS BEEN WORKING TO PREVENT VIOLENCE IN BOSTON FOR DECADES, AS THE FOUNDER AND CEO OF THE LEWIS D BROWN PEACE INSTITUTE, NAMED FOR HER SON WHO WAS KILLED BY A BULLET.

CHAPLAIN CLEMENTINA CHERY JOINS ME NOW.

SO, I GET FRUSTRATED.

AT THE START OF THE SUMMER WE HEAR ABOUT VIOLENCE PREVENTION.

IT SEEMS LIKE OVER THE SUMMER IT IS AN ISSUE AND THEN WE JUST FORGET ABOUT IT.

BUT YOU HAVE NEVER FORGOTTEN ABOUT IT, EVER.

IS THAT FRUSTRATING, TO GO THROUGH THIS AGAIN?

WE ARE STARTING THE SUMMER, AND THAT IS HOW WE ARE KICKING OFF THE SEGMENT.

GUEST: IT IS SAD.

IT IS RE-TRIGGERING AND RE- TRAUMATIZING BECAUSE WE TEND TO WAIT UNTIL THE SUMMER TO TALK ABOUT SHOOTINGS.

I KNOW THAT YOU SAID WHAT, 11 FROM JUNE TO AUGUST?

WELL, FROM JANUARY TO MAY IT IS 11.

AND THEN FROM SOME SEPTEMBER TO DECEMBER IT IS 17.

SO THE FACT THAT WE ONLY WAIT FOR THE SUMMER TO TALK ABOUT THE VIOLENCE, IT IS, ONE, MINIMIZING AND DEVALUING ALL OF THOSE FAMILIES WHO LOST THEIR LOVED ONES BEFORE THE SUMMER AND AFTER THE SUMMER.

SO THERE HAS TO BE A WAY -- WE KNOW THAT THIS HAPPENS.

30 YEARS AND WE ARE STILL FOCUSING ON THE SUMMER.

THE YOUNG PEOPLE KILLED AND THAT ARE KILLING WERE NOT EVEN BORN WHEN LOUIS WAS KILLED.

WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THIS FROM A HOLISTIC PERSPECTIVE.

ARE WE READY FOR SUMMER OF 2024?

FULLY WE ARE NOT WAITING UNTIL JUNE OF 2020 FOUR SAYING AND REPEATING THE SAME THING.

TORI: WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THESE NEW PROGRAMS?

DO YOU FEEL LIKE THERE IS -- ARE YOU HOPEFUL ABOUT TOMORROW?

CHAPLAIN CHERY: ALWAYS HOPEFUL.

I HAVE TO BE HOPEFUL.

WHAT I STRUGGLE WITH IS, WE DON'’T SUSTAIN -- THEY ARE NOT SUSTAINABLE.

EVERY ADMINISTRATION COMES IN, WE ARE FOLLOWING WITH SOMETHING DIFFERENT AND NOT SUSTAINING.

PROGRAMS COME AND GO.

PEOPLE COME AND GO.

THOSE THAT ARE LIVING, THE ISSUES ARE STILL THERE AND IT IS NOT SUSTAINABLE.

SO, YES, I AM HOPEFUL.

I HAVE TO BE HOPEFUL.

BECAUSE THIS IS MY CITY.

.

THIS IS MY COMMUNITY AND I AM RAISING YOUNG BLACK GRANDCHILDREN, BOYS, AND I DON'’T WANT TO WAIT FOR THEM TO GET IN TROUBLE, TO TALK ABOUT PROVIDING SUPPORT TO THEM.

TORI: YOU ARE DOING THIS WORK TO REFRAME THE WAY PEOPLE TALK ABOUT VICTIMS OF HOMICIDE.

WHY IS THAT IMPORTANT, AND CAN YOU TALK ABOUT WHAT IT IS YOU ARE DOING AND WORKING ON AT THE FOUNDATION?

CHAPLAIN CHERY: WE TEND TO ALWAYS FOCUS ON INDIVIDUALS.

YOU WANT TO FOCUS ON THE GANGS.

THE GANGS BELONG TO SOMEBODY.

THE FACT YOU KNOW THAT SOMEBODY IS IN A GANG, IT IS PAINFUL FOR ME TO HEAR THAT.

AS MOTHERS IN THE INNER-CITY, WE DON'’T RAISE OUR CHILDREN TO KILL AND WE DON'’T RAISE THEM TO BE KILLED.

SO WHEN LOUIS WAS KILLED, AND I FIRST HEARD THAT IT WAS A DRUG DEAL GONE BAD.

THERE WAS KIND OF THIS JUSTIFICATION AS TO WHAT HE WAS KILLED AND WHERE HE WAS KILLED.

-- WHY HE WAS KILLED AND WHERE HE WAS KILLED.

WHEN THEY FOUND OUT WHO HE WAS, THAT HE WANTED TO BE THE FIRST BLACK PRESIDENT, THAT HE HAD GOALS AND DREAMS AND VISION, THE NARRATIVE CHANGED.

THEN THAT JUSTIFICATION WAS, " UNFORTUNATELY HE WAS IN THE WRONG PLACE AT THE WRONG TIME.

THESE THINGS HAPPEN.

THIS IS A HOTSPOT."

I DIDN'’T WANT TO DEAL WITH THAT NARRATIVE.

.

I WANTED TO SHIFT THAT NARRATIVE, ONE, TO TEACH THE VALUE OF PEACE, AND TWO, TO TRANSFORM THE WAY WE RESPOND TO FAMILIES OF HOMICIDE VICTIMS.

WHEN WE TALK ABOUT NUMBERS, IT IS ONE VICTIM.

WE WENT TO FOCUS ON THE FAMILIES LEFT BEHIND.

AND THERE ARE REALLY NO RESOURCES, OR THERE WEREN'’T ANY RESOURCES BACK IN 1993, SO FOR US, IT IS WORKING WITHIN THE SCHOOLS TO EQUIP TEACHERS TO TEACH THE VALUE OF PEACE, THEN WORKING WITH OUR CITY LEADERS, WITH THE LATE MAYOR MENINO, ALL THE DIFFERENT MAYORS AND OUR POLICE COMMISSIONER AND OUR POLICE DEPARTMENT AND HOSPITALS, TO REALLY TRANSFORM THE WAY SOCIETY RESPONSE TO HOMICIDE.

WE HAVE DEVELOPED THE BEST PRACTICES IN HOMESTEAD RESPONSE PROTOCOL WITHIN BOSTON.

NOT, RESPONSE, THAT IS ONE, HOMICIDE RESPONSE PROTOCOL.

PHYSICALLY, NOTHING HAS HAPPENED TO US.

INTERNALLY, EVERYTHING IS HAPPENING TO US.

WE WANT TO SHIFT THAT NARRATIVE AND NOT ALWAYS FOCUS ON THE PROBLEM.

WE HAVE TO FOCUS ON THE SOLUTIONS.

TORI: I WANTED TO TALK ABOUT THAT PROFILING THAT YOU JUST MENTIONED, BECAUSE YOU HAVE HEARD FROM THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY'’S OFFICE THEY JUST RELEASED LATER THAT I THINK THE CONCENTRATION THE MAJORITY OF VIOLENT CRIME OCCURS IN DORCHESTER ROXBURY, JAMAICA PLAIN AND ANOTHER NEIGHBORHOOD.

AT THE SAME TIME, ARREST RATES HAVE INCREASED.

BOSTON HAS NOT THE BIGGEST RACIAL GAPS FOR THE HOMICIDE CLEARANCE RATE, WHICH IS THE AMOUNT OF HOMICIDES THAT WERE SOLD BY POLICE.

THAT HAS BEEN KINDA PROPORTIONAL, IT IS HAPPENING AT THE SAME TIME.

HOW DO YOU THINK WE CAN ADDRESS THAT BIAS, RIGHT, BECAUSE IT RIGHT NOW WE ARE TALKING IS ALL ABOUT LOOKING INTO THE GANG UNIT, ALLEGATIONS OF RACIAL BIAS SINCE 2018.

ALL OF THAT TO ME SEEMS RATHER CONNECTED WHEN LOOKING AT BOSTON AND SYSTEMIC RACISM AND HOW THAT PLAYS A ROLE.

CHAPLAIN CHERY: THIS IS NOTHING NEW.

THIS IS NOTHING NEW.

WHAT HAPPENS IS THAT THERE IS NO ACCOUNTABILITY.

EVERY SINGLE YEAR WE HAVE THAT SAME STATEMENT.

EVERY DISTRICT ATTORNEY HAS DONE IT BEFORE.

EVERY POLICE COMMISSIONER HAS DONE IT BEFORE.

EVERY LAYER HAS DONE IT BEFORE.

EVERY MINISTER HAS DONE IT BEFORE.

THE MISSING LINK IS BELOW THE CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL'’S SOCIAL ECOLOGICAL FRAMEWORK TELLS US THAT IN ORDER TO ADDRESS THE ISSUE, INTERVENTION MUST HAPPEN AT MULTIPLE LEVELS.

WE CONTINUE TO FOCUS ON A SMALL NUMBER OF PEOPLE DOING THE HARM.

FOR ME, IT IS, WHO DO THEY BELONG TO?

IF THERE IS A GANG UNIT, IF THERE IS A GANG DATABASE, THEY BELONG TO SOMEBODY.

HOW DO WE MAKE SURE THAT WE ARE BRINGING THOSE CAREGIVERS INTO THAT CONVERSATION?

BECAUSE TWO THINGS HAPPEN -- THEY EITHER END UP DEAD AND THEN THEY ARE RE-VICTIMIZED AND THEIR FAMILIES RE RE-VICTIMIZED BECAUSE OF THE INVOLVEMENT, OR THEY END UP KILLING SOMEBODY AND THAT CYCLE OF VIOLENCE CONTINUES TO HAPPEN.

SO FOR ME, AS A REPORTER, YOU HAVE TO GO DEEPER AND ASK, WHY IS IT THAT EVERY YEAR AT THE SAME TIME, WE ARE GETTING THE SAME NARRATIVE?

WHEN, AGAIN, THE VICTIMS WERE NOT EVEN BORN?

THIS IS 30 YEARS DOING THIS AND IT IS STILL DORCHESTER, ROXBURY AND MATTAPAN.

WE KNOW THESE ARE HOTSPOTS, RESEARCHER HAS TOLD US WE CAN COOL IT DOWN.

IF THIS WAS NEWTON AND WELLESLEY, WE WOULD NOT BE DOING THIS.

SO, YES, ARREST RATES WILL GO I.

THE CLEARANCE RATE IS NOT HAPPENING, BECAUSE IT IS THE SAME PEOPLE THAT ARE SHOOTING, THAT ARE KILLING.

WE DON'’T TRUST GOVERNMENT OR THE SYSTEM.

SO PEOPLE ARE NOT GOING TO COME FORWARD.

ONE OF THE THINGS WE ARE DOING, WE ARE CREATING THE UNSOLVED HOMICIDE AMBASSADORS GROUP WHERE MOTHERS WHOSE CHILDREN HAVE BEEN MURDERED WANT TO BE AND WANT TO WORK WITH OUR POLICE COMMISSIONER AND OUR DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND OUR FAMILY RESOURCE OFFICER, TO REALLY BEGIN TO HAVE THESE CONVERSATIONS.

AND WE WANT TO BE A PART OF THE SOLUTION.

IF WE ARE NOT INCLUDED IN THAT, HOMICIDE RATE WILL NOT BE SOLVED, ARREST RATES WILL CONTINUE, AND WE ALSO WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT WE BRING IN THE CAREGIVERS OF THOSE THAT ARE PULLING THE TRIGGER THAT ARE ON THE GANG DATABASE.

THE SOLUTION IS REALLY SIMPLE.

TORI: THING -- THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONTINUED WORK, DECADES OF WORK CREATING HOPE AND SOLUTIONS FOR PEOPLE.

CHAPLAIN CHERY: THANKS FOR THE INVITATION.

I AM HERE TO SERVE.

TORI: THANK YOU SO MUCH.

THAT IS IT FOR TONIGHT.

COME BACK TOMORROW FOR "TALKING POLITICS."

I AM TORY BEDFORD.

THANKS FOR WATCHING.

GOOD NIGHT.

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