>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING OUT.

TRUMPS PICK, BILL PULTE.

WE GET THE DETAILS FROM WASHINGTON, AND, > >> COLUMBIA LOOKS READY TO FIGHT AFTER A MEGA BACKED POPULACE LEADS A RACE TO THE PRESIDENCY.

I SPEAK TO A REPORTER ON THE GROUND.

> >> IT'S ABOUT 5:00 HERE.

THE SUN HAS RISEN ON A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT UK AND A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT DATA.

10 YEARS SINCE THE UK'S STUNNING SPLIT FROM THAT EU.

WE LOOK AT THE POLITICAL FORCES AT PLAY, THE COST OF GOING SOLO, AND WHAT COULD COME NEXT.

> >> PLUS, HOW TO TELL THE AMERICAN STORY.

THE ATLANTICS YONI APPELBAUM SPEAKS ABOUT BRINGING THE U. S. BACK TO ITS FOUNDING PROMISE.

> >> AMANPOUR AND COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM, THE STRAUSS FAMILY FOUNDATION, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND , CHARLES ROSENBLUM, AND CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I AM BIANNA GOLODRYGA, SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

MASS FIRINGS ARE UNDERWAY AT THE U. S. INTELLIGENCE AGENCY CREATED TO PREVENT ANOTHER 9/11.

DONALD TRUMP'S PICK FOR DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE, BILL PULTE, REPORTEDLY SHOWED UP TO THE JOB BEFORE HE WAS DUE TO START.

PULTE HAS NO INTELLIGENCE ARE EXPERIENCE.

TOP DEMOCRATS ARE CONCERNED THIS WEEK'S JOB SLASHING IS CHAOTIC AND COULD POSE A NATIONAL SECURITY RISK.

FOR MORE OF THE DETAILS, KEVIN LOVE TECH JOINS ME IN WASHINGTON.

KEVIN KOCH BRING ME UP TO SPEED WITH THESE FIRINGS.

>> WE DON'T HAVE A PRECISE PICTURE OF THE SCOPE OF THE FIRINGS, OR WHO PRECISELY AT THE AGENCY HAS BEEN LET GO AT THIS POINT, BUT IT IS CLEAR THAT BILL PULTE IS WASTING NO TIME, TRYING TO EXECUTE WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS MADE CLEAR IS HIS OBJECTIVES FOR HIS TENURE AS DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE.

PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS SAID EXPLICITLY THAT HE WANTS PULTE TO START SLASHING TO THE WORKFORCE WITH A PARTICULAR EYE TO INDIVIDUALS THAT TRUMP AND PULTE ARE TRYING TO UNDERMINE THE ADMINISTRATION AND WHAT ONE SOURCE SAYS IS THAT THE DEEP STATE FIRINGS HAVE BEGUN, WHICH GIVES YOU EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT WHERE EXACTLY HE WILL BE LOOKING TO SLASH SOME OF THIS WORKFORCE.

YOU KNOW, HE HAS BEEN EAGER TO GET INTO THIS JOB, EVEN BEFORE HIS TENURE WAS TO OFFICIALLY BEGIN, HE SHOWED UP AT THE OFFICE LAST WEEK TO ASK FOR THESE LISTS OF STAFFERS AT DECK SIX, WHICH CAUGHT TULSI GABBARD OFFGUARD.

YOU HAVE A PICTURE OF HOW PULTE WILL BE GOING ABOUT THIS POSITION.

PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID IN A SOCIAL MEDIA POST THAT HE WANTED PULTE TO EXECUTE THE IMMEDIATE AND NEEDED DOWNSIZING OF THE OFFICE.

PRESIDENT TRUMP ISN'T THE ONLY PERSON IN WASHINGTON WHO THINKS THAT THE ODNI IS BLOATED, POTENTIALLY HAS BECOME INEFFICIENT IN THE TWO DECADES SINCE IT WAS FOUNDED IN THE YEARS AFTER 9/11.

TULSI GABBARD HAS ALREADY REDUCED THE OFFICE BY 24%.

THE REAL CONCERN HERE IS WHO IS GOING ABOUT IT?

BILL PULTE IS NOT SOMEONE WHO HAS ANY NATIONAL SECURITY EXPERIENCE.

HE IS SOMEONE WHO IS MOST KNOWN FOR USING HIS CURRENT POSITION ATOP A HOUSING AGENCY TO GO AFTER SOME OF PRESIDENT TRUMP'S PERCEIVED RIVALS AND THAT HAS REALLY RAISED THE IRE OF SOME DEMOCRATS.

YESTERDAY, THE TOP DEMOCRATS ON THE HOUSE AND SENATE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE WROTE A LETTER TO PULTE, SAYING THAT GIVEN HIS LACK OF EXPERIENCE IN THE NATIONAL AND INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITIES THAT IT WAS DIFFICULT TO IMAGINE HIM, QUOTE, AND SUCH A SHORT AMOUNT OF TIME, YOU HAVE ALREADY DEVELOPED FULLY INFORMED USE ABOUT HOW TO SHRINK ODNI WITHOUT INCURRING RISKS TO NATIONAL SECURITY.

NOW, PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS ALREADY SAID THAT HE WILL ONLY HAVE PULTE IN THIS JOB IN AN ACTING CAPACITY, SAYING THAT ONLY AN ACTING AND NOT BEING PERMANENT WOULD ME THAT HE WAS, QUOTE, LESS SHACKLED.

HOW LONG HE IS IN THIS JOB REMAINS TO BE SEEN.

JUST LAST WEEK, THE PRESIDENT PULLED BACK HIS NOMINEE FOR THE PERMANENT POSITION BECAUSE HE WANTED PULTE TO HAVE SOME TIME IN THE JOB TO CARRY OUT THESE OBJECTIVES.

THE ON OUT.

>> AND THAT IS J CLAYTON, WHO BY ANY MEASURE WAS SEEN AS MORE OF A PALATABLE NOMINEE AND PICK BY BOTH DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS AFTER THE OUTRAGE THAT BILL PULTE WOULD BE NOMINATED FOR THIS ROLE.

THE PRESIDENT SAID THIS WOULD ONLY BE IN AN ACTING CAPACITY, WHY WOULD HE GO ABOUT NAMING SOMEONE LIKE JAY, CLAYTON, ONLY TO TELL HIM TO NOT COME TO HIS OWN CONFIRMATION HEARING AND TO WAIT THINGS OUT?

>> I THINK IT WAS BECAUSE THE PRESIDENT HEARD LOUD AND CLEAR FROM A NUMBER OF REPUBLICANS ON CAPITOL HILL, THEIR DISCOMFORT WITH HAVING BILL PULTE IN THIS JOB.

IT THREATENED THE EXTENSION OF A VERY IMPORTANT SURVEILLANCE AUTHORITY ON THE HILL.

YOU SOUGHT REPUBLICANS REALLY DIGGING IN THEIR HEELS, SAYING THEY WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO VOTE FOR THIS UNTIL THEY GOT ASSURANCES THAT BILL PULTE WOULD NOT BE IN THIS JOB FOR A VERY LONG AMOUNT OF TIME, AND THE PRESIDENT, COMING UP WITH A NAME IN JAY CLAYTON, THAT NOT MANY REPUBLICANS CAN GET BEHIND.

THAT IS WHY I THINK YOU SAW THE PRESIDENT RUSH TO PUT HIS NAME OUT THERE BUT I THINK IT BECAME CLEAR TO PRESIDENT TRUMP AFTER HEAT NAMED JAY CLAYTON TO THIS JOB THAT PERHAPS BILL PULTE WOULD NOT BE ACTING DNI VERY LONG BECAUSE REPUBLICANS IN THE SENATE HAD FAST TRACKED CLAYTON'S NOMINATION.

THEY HAD SET THE DATE FOR A HEARING.

IT SEEMED PRETTY CLEAR THAT HE COULD POTENTIALLY BE CONFIRMED WITHIN A MATTER OF DAYS AND THAT IS WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP LAST WEEK SAID, NO, NO, NO, WE ARE GOING TO HOLD UP THIS NOMINATION FOR BOTH THE PULTE ASPECT OF IT BUT ALSO BECAUSE PRESIDENT TRUMP WANT TO TELL AUNT IN THIS NEW VOTING REFORM LAW THAT HE WANTS TO SEE PAST, SO IT'S ALL KINDS OF COMPLICATED LEGISLATIVE MANEUVERING, BUT I THINK IT ALL BOILS DOWN TO THE DISCOMFORT THAT CERTAINLY DEMOCRATS FEEL WITH BILL PULTE BUT ALSO A LOT OF REPUBLICANS BECAUSE HE HAS NO NATIONAL SECURITY EXPERIENCE BECAUSE WHAT THEY FEAR WILL BECOME A POLITICIZATION OF THIS VERY CRITICAL INTELLIGENCE HOST.

>> ALL RIGHT, KEVIN LIPTAK, REPORTING TO US FROM THE WHITE HOUSE IN WASHINGTON, D. C. THANK YOU SO MUCH.

WELL, NOW IT'S ALL BUT CERTAIN.

COLUMBIA'S NEXT PRESIDENT WILL BE ABELARDO DE LA ESPRIELLA.

HIS PROGRESSIVE RIVAL, IVÁN CEPEDA, CONTESTED THE RESULTS.

THIS PROMPTED THE U. S. PRESIDENT TO PUT HIS THUMB ON THE SCALE.

ORGANIZED CRIME AND RAPID FINANCE WERE ALSO KEY ISSUES AT THE BALLOT BOX.

FOR MORE ON ALL OF THIS, I AM JOINED NOW BY DANIEL PACHECO, JOURNALIST AND GENERAL EDITOR.

DANIELLE, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, SO IF INDEED DE LA ESPRIELLA IS PRESIDENT, IT WOULD BE A HUGE SHIFT.

IT WOULD BE A TIGHT WIN BUT NO DOUBT A WIN.

WHAT MESSAGE ARE VOTERS IN COLUMBIA SENDING RIGHT NOW?

>> HI.

THANKS.

IT'S GREAT TO BE HERE.

THE MAIN MESSAGE IS A REBUKE TO THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT OF GUSTAVO PETRO.

GUSTAVO PETRO WAS A POPULIST ON THE LEFT ON HIS OWN, SO THIS IS A REFERENDUM ON THAT PRESIDENCY, AND IT'S THE ARRIVAL OF POLARIZED SOCIAL MEDIA POLITICS AND THIS POPULIST TREND IN PECTORALS THAT HAS BEEN GOING THROUGH ALL THE CONTINENT, THROUGHOUT LATIN AMERICA LED BY DONALD TRUMP.

>> AND OFFICIALS AS WE'VE NOTED STILL HAVEN'T DECLARED A LEADER.

CEPEDA IS CONTESTING POLLING STATIONS.

DOES THIS CHALLENGE AT THIS POINT HAVE ANY LEGAL MERIT?

>> NO.

IT DOESN'T HAVE LEGAL MERIT BECAUSE THE ELECTION IS FINALLY CERTIFIED BY THE --.

THAT WILL BE DONE IN A COUPLE OF DAYS, BUT WE'VE GOT SOME INFORMATION ON THE COUNTING ON THE SECOND COUNT AND NOTHING HAS CHANGED.

--HAS WIDENED A LITTLE BIT BUT HISTORICALLY THE CHANGES BETWEEN THE FIRST COUNT AND THE SECOND COUNT DON'T VERY MUCH.

THIS IS BASICALLY THE PRESIDENT, PETRO WHO HAS THROWN AND UNSUBSTANTIATED CLAIMS OF FRAUD AND POLITICS.

AND THE LEFT TRYING TO ESTABLISH A STARTING POINT TO A VERY HARD AND ROBUST OPPOSITION WHICH WE WILL SEE IN THE NEXT FEW YEARS.

>> THE UNSUBSTANTIATED CLAIMS OF FRAUD THAT YOU MENTIONED, SPECIFICALLY IS ACCUSING ISRAEL OF HACKING INTO THE COUNTRY AND HACKING ACCOUNT TO RIG ALL OF THIS AND SAYS THERE'S NO PRESIDENT UNTIL THIS CLAIM IS REVIEWED.

WHAT DOES A CLAIM LIKE THIS FROM A SITTING PRESIDENT SAY ABOUT COLOMBIAN FAITH IN THE VOTE?

HOW MUCH PRESSURE IS PUT ON A SITTING PRESIDENT RIGHT NOW FROM HIS OWN CONSTITUENTS MONDAY MAKE UNSUBSTANTIATED CLAIMS LIKE THIS?

>> SO WE SEE THIS IN OTHER COUNTRIES.

IT HAPPENED IN THE U. S. IT HAPPENED IN BRAZIL.

ALSO IN NORWEGIAN.

WE SAW PEDRO HAS BEEN DOING THIS FOR A LONG TIME, BUT HE HAS ALSO WON BIG ELECTIONS.

SO HE WON A MAJORITY IN CONGRESS SO I THINK PEOPLE AT THIS POINT ARE PRETTY SET IN THAT ABELARDO DE LA ESPRIELLA IS GOING TO BE PRESENT -- PRESIDENT AND EVEN HIS PART ON THE LEFT IS ALREADY PREPARING THE OPPOSITION AND THEY KNOW THEY HAVE LOST SO AT THIS POINT, IT'S GOING TO BE PETRO SETTING UP WHITE MIGHT BE A HEATED TRANSITION.

I DON'T KNOW HOW THAT'S GOING TO UNFOLD BUT ALL THE BASIC FACTORS OF POWER, THE ARMED FORCES, THE JUDICIAL SYSTEM, THE ELECTORAL SYSTEM AND THE POLITICIANS AND THE PEOPLE IN GENERAL ARE PRETTY WELL SET ON THAT ABELARDO HAS WON THE ELECTION AND THERE WILL BE A TRANSFERENCE OF POWER.

PEOPLE ARE GOING TO --AT THE WORLD CUP AT THIS POINT.

>> COLOMBIA IS PLAYING.

ARE THEY PLAYING TODAY, TOMORROW, SOON?

TODAY.

WE ARE ROOTING FOR COLOMBIA TODAY.

ABELARDO DE LA ESPRIELLA GOT A COMPLETE AND TOTAL ENDORSEMENT.

THAT WAS THE POST FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP.

HE POSTED THAT HE WON BIG IN ALL CAPS.

WE SET THOUGH THIS WAS A RATHER TIGHT ELECTION WHEN IT CAME DOWN TO THE FINAL COUNT HERE, HE CAME FAR UNDER THE 5 TO 7 POINTS THAT HAD BEEN PREDICTED.

HOW MUCH OF A FACTOR IN HIS WIN WAS PRESIDENT TRUMP'S ENDORSEMENT?

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK IT DIDN'T HELP HIM AT THE END.

ABELARDO'S LEAD WAS WIDER THAN BEFORE THE TRUMP ENDORSEMENT.

THE WAY THAT TRUMP TALKED ABOUT THE ELECTION, IT SHOWS THAT HE DOESN'T REALLY KNOW WHAT HAPPENED IN COLUMBIA, -- COLOMBIA BUT WE ARE EXPECTING THIS ALLIANCE WITH THE UNITED STATES, WHICH COLUMBIA HAD HISTORICAL LEAVE VERY STRONG TIES TO WASHINGTON IN THE REGION, BEFORE THE GUSTAVO PETRO PRESIDENCY WILL BECOME EVEN STRONGER AND THEY WILL UNFOLD IN DIFFERENT TERMS AROUND THIS MONROE DOCTRINE WHICH IS BASICALLY THE MONROE DOCTRINE IN WHICH THE UNITED STATES HAD A DEFINED LATIN AMERICA AS ITS BACKYARD IN WHICH IT COULD INTERFERE WITH DONALD TRUMP ADDITION OR ADDENDUM, WHICH MEANS HE WILL INTERVENE IN THE ISSUES HE FINDS IMPORTANT WHICH ARE DRUG TRAFFICKING, MIGRATION, AND GENERAL SECURITY, SO THAT IS GOING TO BE AN IMPORTANT FACTOR MAINLY BECAUSE THERE ARE A LOT OF FRIENDLY PRESIDENTS ALIGNED TO TRUMP IN THE REGION.

SO IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE HOW MUCH INTERVENTIONISM WE WILL SEE.

HOW MUCH PUSHBACK AGAINST THE GROWING INFLUENCE OF CHINA AND RUSSIA IN THE REGION AND HOW AFFECTED THEY WILL MANAGE TO BE FIGHTING , YOU KNOW, THE PERPETUAL DRUG WAR AGAINST COCAINE, WHICH HAS YIELDED VERY FEW RESULTS ON THE GROUND HERE IN COLUMBIA.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

PLEASE SEE --THIS IS SEEN AS A SHIFT TO THE RIGHT WITHIN THE REGION.

IS THIS AN IDEOLOGICAL NEW WAY THAT WE ARE SEEN, OR IS THIS JUST CONSTITUENTS WHO ARE FRUSTRATED WITH THE INCUMBENTS AND ARE BASICALLY CASTING A VOTE FOR ANYBODY BUT THE SAME?

>> YOU KNOW, THAT IS A GREAT QUESTION BECAUSE WE HAD A PREVIOUS LEFT WING WAVE WHICH IS BEING REPLACED VERY RADICALLY WITH A PENDULUM, GOING VERY FAST TO THE RIGHT IN THIS ELECTION.

I THINK THERE IS SOMETHING THEY HAVE TAPPED INTO .

IT WAS PRESENT IN 2016.

YOU GUYS WENT THROUGH IT WITH BREXIT.

WE ALSO WENT THROUGH IT WITH A REFERENDUM AROUND THE PEACE ACCORD.

I THINK THERE IS A PART OF COLOMBIANS WHO ARE IDENTIFIED AND WHO REALLY THINK THAT THERE IS AN IDEOLOGICAL SHIFT.

I THINK IT WILL BE KEY TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS IN 2028 WHEN THE U. S. ELECTIONS ARE COMING AND WHEN WE WILL ACTUALLY SEE THAT LEADERSHIP THAT STEMS FROM THE UNITED STATES IS ABLE TO HAVE A SECOND PRESIDENCY AND IF THAT INFLUENCE MANAGES TO MAKE A COHESIVE IDEOLOGICAL BLOCK INSIDE THE CONTINENT.

IT WILL ALSO BE INTERESTING TO SEE WHATEVER ABELARDO DE LA ESPRIELLA TURNS OUT TO BE BECAUSE HE HASN'T HAD OFFICE PREVIOUSLY.

HE HAS NO EXPERIENCE AND COLOMBIA IS A HARD COUNTRY TO MANAGE.

WE HAVE ARMED GROUPS.

WE HAVE VERY STRONG OPPOSITION.

HE WON VERY NARROWLY.

WE HAVE PROBLEMS WITH THE HEALTH SYSTEM.

WE HAVE FISCAL PROBLEMS.

SO IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE IF HE CAN BE THE LEADER OF THE NEW RIGHT IN COLUMBIA WHICH HAS HAD A LEADER, A VERY STRONG HISTORICAL THEATER IN THE PRESENCE OF ABELARDO DE LA ESPRIELLA, WHICH MAYBE YOU REMEMBER.

>> DE LA ESPRIELLA IS A NOVICE POLITICIAN.

HE WAS AN ATTORNEY BEFORE THAT AND A CONTROVERSIAL ONE.

HE SPENT HIS ENTIRE CAREER DEFENDING A MADURO MONEYLENDER.

NOW HE IS VOWING TO DISMANTLE THESE VERY NETWORKS THAT HE WAS DEFENDING AND LET'S JUST TALK ABOUT SOME OF THESE PROMISES HE CAMPAIGNED ON.

A 90 DAY CRACKDOWN PEACE TALK SCRAPS, MAKE A PERSON TO BE BUILT THAT HE WOULD MODEL ON THE --.

AND BASICALLY TAKE A CHAINSAW TO GOVERNMENT SPENDING.

HE WON BY THE NARROWEST MANDATE IF NOT ONE OF THE NARROWEST MANDATES IN HISTORY.

HOW MANY OF THOSE PROMISES WILL HE ACTUALLY BE ABLE TO DELIVER?

>> WE'LL SEE.

I CAN ANTICIPATE THAT NOT MANY OF THEM.

COLOMBIA HAS NOT BUILT A MAKE A PRISON IN THE LAST DECADE AND HE VOWS TO BUILD 10 IN HIS FOUR YEARS.

SO THOSE WERE LIKE THE MAIN POINTS IN A PROGRAM OF GOVERNMENT THAT WAS NOT IMPORTANT IN THE ELECTION BECAUSE THE ELECTION WAS ABOUT EL TIGRE, THE LIGHTS, VIDEO, PRODUCED WITH A. I. , WHICH PICTURED HIS OPPONENTS IN VERY STRANGE SITUATIONS, SO, I THINK WE HAVE SOME FIRST SIGNALS WHICH WERE HIS VICTORY SPEECH.

HE TOOK A VERY STARK TURN IN HIS VICTORY SPEECH.

HE SEEMED MORE MODERATE AND NOW, WE ARE WAITING TO SEE HOW HE IS BUILDING HIS CABINET AND THAT WILL GIVE YOU A SIGN OF WHETHER HE WILL BE A TRUE POPULIST, A HARD RIGHT PIPE LIST OR WHETHER HE WILL BE CO- OPTED BY THE RIGHT LEANING ESTABLISHMENT WHICH HAS GOVERNED DOUMBIA -- COLOMBIA WITH SUCCESSES AND NOT SO MANY SUCCESSES FOR A DECADE.

>> AND WE WILL BE WATCHING HIS RECORD ON HUMAN RIGHTS AS WELL GOING FORWARD, NONETHELESS, A SIGNIFICANT SHIFT IN POLITICS IN COLOMBIA TODAY.

THANK YOU SO MUCH, DANIEL PACHECO.

WE WILL BE ROOTING FOR COLOMBIA IN THE OLD CUP.

STRIKE RETURN TO THE UK AS THE COUNTRY REELS FROM KEIR STARMER'S RESIGNATION.

IT IS ALSO MARKING A MOUSE NONE, 10 YEARS SINCE BREXIT.

>> THE DAWN IS BREAKING ON AN INDEPENDENT UNITED KINGDOM.

IN MANY WAYS, A HISTORIC REFERENDUM IN WHICH BRITAIN VOTED TO LEAVE THE EUROPEAN UNION CAN AND FROM THIS MOMENT IN BRITISH POLITICS AND HOW WE GOT HERE.

FROM POLITICAL INSTABILITY TO THE RISE OF POPULISM.

NIGEL FARAGE AND BRUCE JOHNSON ROAD A WAVE URGING VOTERS TO TAKE BACK CONTROL FROM THE EU IN BRUSSELS WITH PROMISES OF HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF POUNDS EXTRA FOR THE NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE.

WHERE 52% OF THE POPULATION GOT ON BOARD AND OPTED TO LEAVE, 10 YEARS ON, THE COST IS CLEAR.

INDEPENDENT ECONOMIC ANALYSTS ESTIMATE THE HIT TO THE GDP IS ANYWHERE FROM 4 TO 8% SALT SPRING AND TWO JOURNALISTS WELL PLACED TO UNPACK ALL OF THIS.

JONATHAN FRIEDLAND AND JULIAN TECH OF THE FINANCIAL TIMES.

WELCOME BOTH OF YOU.

LET ME START WITH YOU, JONATHAN.

JUST TO TAKE A WALK DOWN MEMORY LANE AND GET YOUR PERSPECTIVE ON WHERE YOU WERE THAT DAY 10 YEARS AGO WHEN ENGLAND OFFICIALLY VOTED TO LEAVE THE EU.

>> YEAH, THE WHOLE OF THE UK WERE TAKEN OUT BY THAT BOAT.

I WAS IN THE NEWSROOM AT THE GUARDIAN NEWSPAPER ALL NIGHT ALL THROUGH THE NIGHT BECAUSE I WAS IN CHARGE OF OUR OPINION COVERAGE THAT NIGHT AND WE SAW IT TURN BECAUSE EVEN NIGEL FARAGE WHO WE SAW THERE, AT THE POLLS THAT CLOSE AT 10:00 AT NIGHT SAID, I THINK WE LOST THEM AND CONSULT HIS SUPPORTERS AND THEN HE TURNED AS THE NIGHT WENT ON.

AS SOON AS ACTUAL RESULTS CAME IN, HE SAW AREAS OF TRADITIONAL LABOR PARLANCE, INDUSTRIAL AREAS, MANY OF THEM VOTED TO LEAVE AND VOTED IN HUGE NUMBERS SO BY DON, IT WAS VERY CLEAR THAT IT HAPPENED AND I REMEMBER FEELING EXTREMELY GONE THAT SOMETHING HUGELY SIGNIFICANT HAPPENED THAT THE COUNTRY A LOT AND HAD MOVED TO SEPARATE ITSELF FROM ITS NEAREST NEIGHBORS AND THAT THIS WAS AGAINST THE WILL OF SO MANY PEOPLE .

THE YOUNG WERE HUGELY AGAINST IT.

SCOTLAND VOTED AGAINST IT.

BIG CITIES VOTED AGAINST IT, SO THE MARGIN WAS SO NARROW FOR SUCH A HUGE AND PROFOUND MOVE AND AS HE SAID IN THE INTRODUCTION, ALL OF THE EVIDENCE THAT HAS COME IN IN 10 YEARS SINCE SAID THAT THIS WAS A NEEDLESS ACT OF SELF-HARM FOR WHICH WE ARE STILL PAYING THE PRICE.

>> I SAID ENGLAND.

IT WAS THE UNITED KINGDOM THAT VOTED TO LEAVE BY A NARROW MARGIN.

FORGIVE THEM I CAN HEAR.

JULIAN, I WAS 10 YEARS AGO THAT ONE OF BREXIT'S LEADING CAMPAIGNERS, DANIEL HANNON HIM AT THIS CONFERENCE ABOUT WHAT LEAVING THE EU WOULD NEED FOR BRITAIN AND ITS FUTURE.

LISTEN TO WHAT HE SAID BRITTA >> THE BRITISH PEOPLE WILL BE THE CHIEF BENEFICIARIES.

WE'LL BENEFIT FROM GETTING OUR LAWS BACK, OUR PARTNERS BACK AND ABOVE ALL, WILL BE ABLE TO TRADE WITH THE WHOLE WORLD AND BE A GLOBAL COUNTRY.

DESPITE 10 YEARS ON, HOW MUCH OF THAT PROMISE, JILLIAN, HAS BEEN DELIVERED?

>> WELL, IT'S VERY HARD TO HEAR THOSE WORDS WITHOUT FEELING A TREMENDOUS SENSE OF BITTERNESS BECAUSE THAT IS NOT PLAYED OUT AT ALL.

I WAS IN NEW YORK WHEN THE BREXIT VOTE HAPPENED AND WAS VERY SHOCKED.

THESE DAYS I'M WRITING FOR THE FINANCIAL TIMES BUT I ALSO'S DOJO --OVERSEE KING'S COLLEGE.

ONE OF THE INTERESTING THINGS THAT CAME OUT OF THAT IS TWO THIRDS OF BRITISH PEOPLE NOW THINK IT WAS A BAD IDEA TO LEAVE THE EUROPEAN UNION BUT ONLY ONE THIRD ACTUALLY WANT TO REJOIN.

AND THE REASON IS THAT IN SOME WAYS, IS AND HAS GONE THROUGH THE EQUIVALENT OF A PROTRACTED DIVORCE FOR THE LAST 10 YEARS WHERE YOU HAVE TWO PARENTS WHO ARE SO FOCUSED ON ARGUING WITH EACH OTHER ALL THE TIME THAT THEY FORGET TO LOOK AFTER THE KIDS, AND IN THIS CASE, IT'S BEEN SUCH A SENSE OF POLITICAL POISON AROUND THE WORD BREAKS IT AND IN PLACE ARGUMENTS ABOUT IT THAT MANY OF THE KEY STRUCTURAL CHALLENGES FACING BRITAIN HAS SIMPLY NOT BEEN ADDRESSED TO DO WITH PRODUCTIVITY, AND FOR STRUCTURE, EDUCATION, THINGS LIKE THAT.

SO EXIT IS NOT JUST DAMAGING IN TERMS OF THE ECONOMIC COST OF LOSING THOSE TRADE LANES ARE HAVING TO REFORMULATE THEM -- IT'S BEEN DESPERATELY DAMAGING IN TERMS OF THE DESTRUCTION IT PROVIDED, AS WELL, AND THAT IS AN UTTER TRAGEDY.

>> AND JONATHAN, ONE OF THE PROMISES, THAT THE BREXIT SUPPORTERS HAD RUN ON AND CAMPAIGNED ON WAS TAKING BACK CONTROL OF THE COUNTRY.

THEY PROMISED STABILITY.

HERE WE ARE 10 YEARS LATER.

BRITAIN IS ABOUT TO SEE AT SEVEN PRIME MINISTER IN 10 YEARS.

IS THAT CHAOS BREAKS IT'S DOING OR IS IT JUST BAD CANDIDATES?

>> NO.

IT IS CERTAINLY RELATED BECAUSE BRITAIN DIDN'T USED TO CHANGE PRIME MINISTERS WITH ANYTHING LIKE THIS REGULARITY.

LIKE YOU SAID, IT WILL BE SEVEN IN 10 YEARS.

BEFORE THAT, HE WOULD HAVE TO GO BACK 20 TO 40 YEARS TO HAVE A NUMBER.

IT DEFINITELY DID RELEASE A KIND OF POISON TO THE CITIES -- SYSTEM BUT ALSO A VOLATILITY BUT I THINK ABOVE ALL WHAT IT DID WAS IT -- BOTH SYMPTOM AND CONS OF INSTABILITY.

SYMPTOMS AND THAT THERE WERE HUGE NUMBERS OF VOTERS THAT WERE JUST DESPERATE TO SEE A CHANGE IN THEIR LIFE.

WHICH IS STAGNANT SINCE THE CRASH IN 2008.

AS ONE COMMENTATOR PUT IT, THE COUNTRY HASN'T HAD A PAY RISE IN 10 YEARS.

PEOPLE WANTED TO DO SOMETHING THAT WOULD CHANGE THINGS AND THEREFORE THEY THOUGHT, LEAVE MEANT LEAVING YOUR CURRENT REALITY RATHER THAN STAYING IN IT, AND SO THEY VOTED LEAF.

THIS OF COURSE DIDN'T BRING THAT PROMISE CHANGE.

IF ANYTHING, IT HAS MADE IT WORSE BECAUSE OF THE ECONOMIC CIRCUMSTANCES ARE EVEN HARDER, AND SO THEREFORE, THIS FRUSTRATION AND THIS NEED FOR CHANGE IS CONSTANTLY LOOKING FOR ANOTHER OUTLET.

ANOTHER LEVER TO PULL, AND EACH TIME AND ONLY BREEDS MORE FRUSTRATION AND MORE IMPATIENCE, AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT WE ARE SEEING IN OUR POLITICAL CYCLE NOW IS A KIND OF COLLECTIVE NATIONAL IMPATIENCE.

RIGHT.

WE FIGHT THAT.

IT DIDN'T WORK.

NEXT.

YOU CAN COME ALONG NEXT TIME?

BUT THAT DESIRE FOR HUGE CHANGE --I THINK WAS THE DRIVER FOR EXIT, WHICH RAISED ALL THESE FALSE HOPES.

YOU HEARD IT THERE WITH DANIEL HANNAN.

THE DISAPPOINTMENT ITSELF HAS BECOME THIS DOOM LOOP OF FRUSTRATION AND IMPATIENCE AND THE CYCLES ARE JUST GETTING NARROWER AND NARROWER.

>> AND JULIAN, BREXIT SUPPORTERS WERE ALSO PROMISING THAT LEAVING THE EU WOULD JUMPSTART THE ECONOMY.

THEY WERE PREDICTING THAT THE UK COULD TURN TO SINGAPORE ON THE TENTS THAT WITHOUT ALL THE REGULATORY HURDLES AND THE RED TAPE IMPOSED FROM BRUSSELS, THEY COULD ACTUALLY START TO SEE FREE MARKETS AND ECONOMY AND TRADE THRIVING SO WHY ARE WE NOW DISPUTING WHETHER THIS WAS ACTUALLY A NET NEGATIVE FOR THE ECONOMY AND LOSING HER FROM 8 TO 2% IN GDP GROWTH OVER THE LAST 10 YEARS.

>> WELL, THERE WERE ALWAYS TWO CONTRADICTORY VIEWS OF BREXIT FROM THE CAMP.

ONE WAS SINGAPORE ON THE TENTS.

A VERY OPEN FREE-MARKET INTERNATIONAL ECONOMY WITHOUT TOO MUCH REGULATION ET CETERA ET CETERA.

THE OTHER WAS FOR A MUCH MORE BACKWARD LOOKING ENGLAND MODEL THAT HAD A VERY DIFFERENT VISION OF HOW BREXIT WOULD PLAY OUT.

THAT HEDGE FUND THAT BACKED THE MODEL OF BREXIT, THE FIRST MODEL, AND PRACTICE, THE POLITICIANS WHO CAME IN HAD BEEN AIMING MORE FOR THE SECOND AND ONE OF BITTER IRONIES FOR BREXIT IS THAT IN THE INTERVENING 10 YEARS IN SOME WAYS, BRITAIN HAS BECOME MORE EUROPEAN BOTH IN TERMS OF OUR POLITICAL SYSTEM AS WE HAVE NOT JUST TWO MAIN PARTIES AND A THIRD MINOR ONE, WE HAVE FIVE OR SIX PARTIES COMPETING WITH EACH OTHER, ALTHOUGH WE DON'T KNOW HOW THE COALITION BUILDING TRADITIONS OF CONTINENTAL EUROPE UNFORTUNATELY, AND THE ECONOMY AS A WHOLE OR THE DIRECTION OF POLICY HAS GOTTEN MORE AND MORE EUROPEAN IN BEING MORE SOCIALIST IN SOME WAYS.

AND THAT IS VERY VERY VERY IRONIC INDEED.

AND TO GET OUT OF THAT, BRITAIN IS GOING TO REALLY HAD TO THINK VERY HARD ABOUT HOW IT UNLEASHES ANIMAL SPIRITS WITH A MUCH MORE DYNAMIC SET OF ECONOMIC POLICIES.

THEY DESPERATELY NEEDED RIGHT NOW BUT ARGUING ABOUT THAT HAS PREVENTED THE GOVERNMENT FINDING THOSE.

>> AND BRITAIN'S EXPERTS AND GOODS AND SERVICES HAS BEEN REDUCED BY 12%.

AGRICULTURAL AND FOOD EXPERTS TOTALING ABOUT 30%, BUT THERE HAS BEEN SOME UPSIDE AS WELL.

WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE INVESTMENT IN ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, LET'S SAY, AND EVEN RENEWED INTEREST IN FINANCIAL SERVICES IN THE UNITED KINGDOM.

WHEN YOU ARE WEIGHING THE PROS AND CONS, ARE THERE ANY BENEFITS ECONOMICALLY THAT WE HAVE SEEN TRANSPIRE, JILLIAN?

>> THERE ARE BENEFITS FOR SURE.

CERTAINLY HAVING A MORE FLEXIBLE AND NIMBLE A. I. REGIME COULD POTENTIALLY BE VERY HELPFUL FOR THE UK.

THEY TOOK FULL ADVANTAGE OF THAT.

IT'S WORTH POINTING OUT, THOUGH, THAT FRANCE HAS ALSO GOT A VERY EXPENSIVE TECH AND A. I. CENTER, EVEN WITHIN THE EU, SEEKING JUST SAY THAT BEING IN THE EU KILLS OFF YOUR A. I. OR TECH INDUSTRY AT ALL.

AGAIN, HAVING MORE FREEDOM AROUND FINANCIAL SERVICES COULD BE A MAJOR ADVANTAGE, BUT THE SIGNS ARE THE PREPARATION DOESN'T WANT US IF WE DID -- THE REGRESSION OF FINANCIAL SERVICES OR INDEED ANYTHING ELSE RIGHT NOW AND THAT'S PART OF THE PROBLEM.

>> AND EVEN THE BURGEONING A. I. INDUSTRY IN THE UK PALES IN COMPARISON TO WHAT WE ARE SEEING IN THE UNITED STATES AND CHINA.

JONATHAN, LET'S TALK ABOUT THE MALES THAT VOTERS WERE PROMISED AND THAT WAS CONTROL OF IMMIGRATION.

INSTEAD, ARRIVALS HIT RECORD HIGHS.

HAS ANYONE BEEN HELD TO ACCOUNT FOR SOME OF THESE FALSE PROMISES, WHETHER IT IS THE NIH SEEING AN INCREASE IN REVENUE BECAUSE OF THIS OR A PROMISE TO REALLY CLAMPDOWN ON IMMIGRATION?

>> NO.

I DON'T THINK ANYONE HAS REALLY BEEN HELD TO ACCOUNT.

ONLY IN THE SENSE THAT ONE OF THE BIG FACES OF THE LEAF CAMPAIGN, BORIS JOHNSON WAS ELEVATED, BECAME PRIME MINISTER, WHICH IN MANY WAYS WAS PERHAPS HIS GOAL ALL ALONG BUT HE WAS DRIVEN OUT OF OFFICE BUT NOT BECAUSE OF THIS.

HE WAS DRIVEN OUT BECAUSE OF HIS BREAKING OF COVID LOCKDOWN ROLES RATHER THAN HIS PROMISES.

PEOPLE REFER TO THE POROUS WAVE OF IMMIGRATION.

HE WAS THE GUY HEADING UP A CAMPAIGN THAT WAS REALLY FUELED BY AND DRIVEN BY PEERS AND ANTIPATHY TO IMMIGRATION AND YET, THE NUMBERS ROCKETED AS YOU SAY IN THE YEARS AFTER BREXIT.

I THINK THAT HAS CHANGED A LOT OF THE POLITICS AROUND THIS ISSUE BECAUSE NOBODY CAN SAY WELL, THE WAY TO KEEP IMMIGRATION UP OR DOWN IS BY LEAVING THE EU.

QUITE THE REVERSE.

THE IMMIGRATION NUMBERS ABSOLUTELY LEFT AFTER OUR EXIT FROM THE EUROPEAN UNION.

I DON'T WANT TO TRADE POLL NUMBERS TOO MUCH WITH JILLIAN.

I THINK SHE SAID ONLY A THIRD FAVORITE REJOINING.

THERE IS A STEADY STREAM OF POLLS THAT SHOW A SETTLED MAJORITY OF BRITISH VOTERS WOULD FAVORITE REJOINING.

A HUGE MAJORITY WOULD FAVOR MUCH CLOSER RELATIONS.

THEY DON'T NECESSARILY PUT IT HIGH ON THEIR LIST OF ISSUES.

THAT IS DEFINITELY TRUE, BUT THEY HAVE COME TO THAT THE THAT IT WAS A MISTAKE AND IF WE COULD REJOIN, WE SHOULD .

THE QUESTION IS HOW YOU TURN THAT INTO A POOL IT'S A LOCAL IS THE WAY POLITICIANS ARE BEHIND, THEY DON'T WANT TO TOUCH IT BECAUSE IT WAS SO DIVISIVE, SO POLARIZING, BUT I THINK VOTERS, YOUNGER VOTERS, THE NEXT GENERATION, ARE AHEAD OF POLITICIANS ON THIS AND THEY DO THINK THAT IF A COUNTRY MIX A HUGELY WRONG DECISION THEN THE BEST THING TO DO IS UNMAKE THAT DECISION AND I THINK IN THE NEXT FIVE, 10, 12 YEARS, WE ARE GOING TO HEAR MORE ABOUT THAT.

IT >> THAT IS AN INTERESTING POINT TO MAKE BECAUSE THOSE WHO YOU ARE ARGUING OPPOSED BREXIT ARE NOT TOUCHING IT RIGHT NOW, EVEN THOUGH POLLS SHOW THAT PERHAPS EVEN THE MAJORITY OF THOSE IN THE UK NOW WOULD FAVORITE REJOINING BUT EVEN THOSE WHO ARE ITS STRONGEST ADVOCATES LIKE NIGEL FARAGE, HE IS REALLY DEFENDING IT AT THE SAME RATE, AT THE SAME ENTHUSIASM LEVEL THAT WE SAW AT THE SAME TIME AS WELL, GET REFORM UK ESTRADA THAN EVER.

HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT?

IS IT OTHER SOCIAL ISSUES THAT HE'S BEEN ABLE TO GRASP ONTO?

>> YES INDEED.

YOU ARE EXACTLY RIGHT.

HE HAS MOVED THE ISSUE AWAY FROM BREXIT.

HE HARDLY SPEAKS ABOUT IT ANYMORE.

IT'S AS IF IT IS AN EMBARRASSING SECRET FROM HIS PAST.

HE BARELY TALKS ABOUT IT.

HE MOVED ON TO MIGRATION.

IT'S HARDER NOW BECAUSE THE NUMBERS ARE COMING DOWN BUT HE STILL GOES HARD ON THAT.

AND LOOKING OVER HIS RIGHT SHOULDER BUT THERE IS A FAR RIGHT PARTY BREATHING DOWN HIS NECK, HE IS GOING DEEPER AND DEEPER INTO THOSE CULTURAL ISSUES, CULTURE WAR ISSUES, EVEN, YOU KNOW, JUST A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO, TRYING TO INFLAME OPINION HERE AFTER THE YOUNG WHITE MAN WAS STAMPED AND POLICE DIDN'T GO TO HIS AID.

AND CALLED FOR COLD, PURE RAGE.

ANY KEYS TRYING TO IGNITE DIVIDENDS, EXPLOIT DIVISIONS, FEAST ON GRIEVANCE BUT NOT REALLY TALK ABOUT BREXIT BECAUSE THAT IS EMBARRASSING.

HE'S THE GUY THAT RAN THE RESTAURANT WHERE EVERYONE GOT FOOD POISONING.

HE BROUGHT TO THE COUNTRY BREXIT AND IT DIDN'T --WE ARE CHOKING ON IT NOW COSTA.

SO HE DOESN'T TALK ABOUT THAT AND I WONDER IF HIS PARTY IS -- WHEN YOU SAY SOCCER THAN EVER --THERE'S SOME INDICATION THAT HE WAS AT ITS PEAK SIX, NINE, A YEAR AGO BUT HE'S FALLEN SHORT IN TWO OR THREE SPECIAL DISTRICT ELECTIONS.

THESE SMALL PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS FOR INDIVIDUAL SEATS.

THREE TIMES IN A ROW NOW, THEY WERE EXPECTED TO WIN BUT DIDN'T OR COULD'VE WON BUT DIDN'T.

SO I'M NOT SURE ABOUT WHETHER WE'VE PASSED PEAK FARAGE.

WE MAY HAVE DONE BUT HE DOESN'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT WHAT HAS BEEN MISSING THEIR CONTRIBUTION TO BRITISH POLITICS.

HUGE, WHICH IS TAKING BRITAIN OUT OF THE EUROPEAN UNION.

I THINK HE AND HIS SUPPORTERS KNOW BEST NOT TO TALK ABOUT THAT.

>> AND HE MAY BE FACING A CHALLENGE FROM EVEN FURTHER RIGHT PARTY AS WELL AT THIS POINT.

JILLIAN, THE WORLD HAS CHANGED IN THE LAST 10 YEARS.

WE HAD RUSSIA'S WAR IN UKRAINE.

WE HAD THE WAR IN IRAN, OCTOBER 7th.

SOME THINGS, THOUGH, HAVE NOT CHANGED AND THAT IS WHO IS IN THE OVAL OFFICE.

JUST A FEW MONTHS AFTER THE BREXIT VOTE, WE SAW THE ELECTION OF DONALD TRUMP HERE.

AND SOME HAD PERHAPS NAÏVELY ASSUMED THAT IF THE UK HAD SEPARATED ITSELF FROM THE EU, WHICH THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES WE KNOW HAS LONG VIEWED NEGATIVELY, THAT PERHAPS THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THESE TWO COUNTRIES COULD BE STRONGER.

HOW DO THINGS LOOK NOW?

>> WELL, THAT'S BEEN A VERY NASTY AWAKENING, I THINK, FOR THE BRITISH PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE THE RHETORIC AROUND THE SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP FOR A LONG TIME, AND YES, IN CEREMONIAL TIMES, IT IS THERE.

CONTROLS DID A FANTASTIC JOB WHEN HE WENT ACROSS AMERICA A FEW WEEKS AGO, AND MANAGED TO REALLY FEAST ON THAT SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP MEME.

THAT SYMBOLISM, BUT THE REALITY IS THAT BRITAIN IS PRETTY SMALL AND AMERICANIZED.

MANY McKINSEY SPEE02 AROUND THE WHITE HOUSE --EVERYBODY IS SKATING, BOTH ABOUT EUROPE AND ABOUT BRITAIN AS WELL.

THERE ARE MANY OTHER BIGGER CHALLENGES TO FOCUS ON, AND BRITAIN'S STRENGTH HAS TRADITIONALLY BEEN ACTING AS A HINGE BETWEEN THE U. S. AND THE EUROPEAN UNION AND ACTUALLY AS A HINGE FOR OTHER BILATERAL RELATIONSHIPS, AS WELL, AND OF COURSE, IT MAKES IT HARDER FOR THE UK TO DO THAT.

SO THE FIRST KEY FOR THE UK TO WIN RESPECT IN THE U. S. WILL INDEED BE CREATING A, YOU KNOW, AN ECONOMY THAT IS VIBRANT, TO HAVE A MILITARY THAT IS VIBRANT, NOT STARVED OF MONEY AS IT CURRENTLY IS, AND HAVE SOME SENSE OF POLITICAL STABILITY.

AT THE MOMENT, IT LOOKS LIKE ITALY IN TERMS OF ITS POLITICS OR IT LOOKS LIKE YOU USED TO BE IN TERMS OF ITS POLITICAL UPHEAVAL AND TURBULENCE WITHOUT THE GOOD FOOD AND WITHOUT USUALLY AS MUCH SUNSHINE JUST BASED ON RIGHT NOW.

>> LISTEN, DO I NEED TO DEFEND THE UK NOW?

I DO THINK THE FOOD AND THE RESTAURANT SCENE HAS QUITE IMPROVED.

I ACTUALLY LOVE EATING THERE.

I'M ALSO --I'M ALSO --SORRY --WHAT DID YOU SAY?

YES.

>> IT IS VERY HARD TO USE THE MODELS THEY USED TO USE TAKE FIGURE OUT WHAT IS HAPPENING ECONOMICALLY OR PUBLICLY.

THERE ARE NOW SEVEN PARTIES JOSTLING WITH EACH OTHER AND BECAUSE WE HAVE A FIRST PARTY SYSTEM, IT'S NOT LIKE CONTINENTAL EUROPE.

SMALL SWINGS IN THE CAN HAVE INCREDIBLY BIG EFFECTS IN TERMS OF THE COMPOSITION OF THE NEXT PROBLEM IS AND IT'S REALLY HARD FOR INVESTORS TO TRY TO MODEL OR PREDICT.

>> YEAH.

I THINK THAT THERE COULD BE ANOTHER WAY TO SUM UP WHAT THESE LAST 10 YEARS HAVE BEEN LIKE AND YOU RECALL THAT THERE WERE HIS GREAT FEAR IN THE EU THAT THIS WOULD CAUSE A DOMINO EFFECT THAT OTHER NATIONS WOULD WANT TO FOLLOW SUIT.

THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN SO PERHAPS THERE IS YOUR TELLTALE SIGN THAT THIS DIDN'T GO ACCORDING TO PLAN.

JONATHAN FRIEDLAND, JULIAN -- JILLIAN TED, THANKS SO MUCH FOR COMING OUT WITH US.

STRUCK WELL, AMERICAS 250th ANNIVERSARY OF INDEPENDENCE IS APPROACHING AND WHEN IT COMES TO CELEBRATIONS, THE RIVALRY BETWEEN PRESIDENT TRUMP'S FREEDOM TO CITIGROUP AND THE BIPARTISAN NONPROFIT 250 SIGNALS A FREIGHT IN IDEALS.

HAD WE TELL THE STORY WHEN WE CAN'T AGREE ON A NARRATIVE?

>> THANK YOU, DEYONA.

WE ARE ABOUT TO CELEBRATE OUR 250th.

WHY IS IT IMPORTANT THAT WE HAVE A NARRATIVE?

A NARRATIVE OF OUR HISTORY IN ORDER TO CELEBRATE OUR BIRTHDAY?

>> YOU KNOW, THIS WAS A COUNTRY BUILT ON AN IDEA, THAT WE ARE EACH EQUAL TO EACH OTHER AND THAT WE ARE COMMITTED TO A COMMON PROJECT, AND IN A NATION THAT IS BUILT AROUND AN IDEA NOT TO BE ABLE TO TELL THAT STORY, NOT TO BE ABLE TO CALL BACK TO THAT COMMON PAST --A PAST THAT NEW ARRIVALS TO THIS COUNTRY ARE ABLE TO ADOPT AS THEIR OWN, LEAVES US UNABLE TO COME TOGETHER IN ANY KIND OF NATIONAL SUBMISSION AND LEAVES THE FUTURE OF THAT PROJECT I THINK UNCERTAIN IN ITSELF.

>> WELL, YOU TALK ABOUT US HAVING A NARRATIVE THAT IS SORT OF BASED ON VALUES RATHER THAN BEING A NATION THAT IS BASED ON LAND INHERITED, AND COMMON BACKGROUNDS.

LET ME READ YOUR SENTENCE AND THE PIECE YOU WROTE IN ATLANTIC.

HE SAID AT NATION DEFINED BY BLOOD AND SOIL BUILT AROUND A SHARED RELIGION OR ETHNICITY CAN SURVIVE IF URGENT NARRATIVES.

TO A COUNTRY BUILT ON AN IDEA, THOUGH, AND BOUND TOGETHER BY A SHARED UNDERSTANDING OF OUR HISTORY, THE INABILITY TO TELL A COMMON STORY MIGHT WELL PROVE FATAL.

I MEAN, FIDDLE.

THAT'S A PUNCH OF A WORD.

I CAN'T --CAN IT BE THE DEATH OF US ALL?

>> YOU LOOK AT AMERICAN HISTORY, MOST NOTABLY THE DECADES LEADING UP TO THE CIVIL WAR, WHERE THERE WAS A RADICAL DISJUNCTION IN THE STORIES AGAINST TOLD THEMSELVES ABOUT WHAT THE COUNTRY WAS AND WHAT IT STOOD FOR.

THIS CAN BE REALLY HARD TO RESOLVE.

I THINK A LOT OF AMERICANS AND I NUMBER MYSELF AMONG THEM ARE WORRIED ABOUT WHERE THE COUNTRY IS AT PRESENT, CONCERNED THAT AN INCREASING NUMBER OF AMERICANS NO LONGER BELIEVE IN THIS NATION'S PROMISE.

NO LONGER SEE THEMSELVES AS A SINGLE COMMON PROJECT BUT INSTEAD ARE CONCERNED THAT THERE MAY BE MORE THAN ONE NARRATIVE THAT HAS TAKEN ROOT, THAT THEY MAY BE AT ODDS WITH EACH OTHER AND THAT'S INCREDIBLE THIS INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT THING TO RESOLVE.

A >> LET ME GO BACK TO THAT.

BUT IF THERE ARE INDEED LOTS OF DIFFERENT NARRATIVES IN OUR AMERICAN HISTORY AND WHAT IF THEY ARE HARD TO RESOLVE?

WHAT THEN?

>> WELL, I THINK THERE ARE IN FACT LOTS OF NARRATIVES.

AMERICANS THINK OF THEMSELVES AS PARTS OF MANY COMMUNITIES.

VERY FEW OF US HAVE ONLY A SINGLE IDENTITY TO WHICH WE SUBSCRIBE AND IT'S POSSIBLE TO TELL THOSE STORIES AS COMMON THREADS THAT ARE BRAIDED TOGETHER, BUT THEY NEED TO BRAID.

THEY NEED TO INTERTWINE AND TO MAKE OUT OF THE RICH DIVERSITY OF AMERICAN PAST SOME SORT OF COHERENT NATIONAL PROJECT.

IN THE ABSENCE OF THAT, IF YOU GET TWO BRAIDS THAT DIVERGE FROM EACH OTHER, AND THE THING PULLS APART.

>> SO TELL ME, WHAT IS, IN YOUR MIND, THE NATIONAL ACTIVE?

HOW DO THINGS BECOME COHERENT?

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK THERE ARE THREE NARRATIVES THAT ARE OUT THERE AT THE MOMENT, THE ONE I THINK MOST MORGAN'S SOUL SUBSCRIBE TO IS ONE THAT EMERGES OVER THE LAST 50 YEARS AND IT SAYS, LOOK, AMERICA IS A COUNTRY FOUNDED ON A SET OF IDEALS.

GOOD IDEALS.

TIMELESS IDEALS.

IT'S ALSO THE CASE THAT WE HAVE SELDOM LIVED UP TO THEM, THAT THE 250 YEARS OF THE AMERICAN PAST ARE A CONTINUAL STRUGGLE IN WHICH WE MEASURE OURSELVES AGAINST THOSE IDEALS.

ON THE WHOLE, WE MOVE FORWARD AND SOMETIMES, WE MOVE BACKWARDS.

WE'VE APPLIED THOSE IDEALS UNEQUALLY TO DIFFERENT GROUPS AT DIFFERENT TIMES, BUT THE PROJECT --THE GRAND AMERICAN EXPERIMENT REMAINS WORTH PURSUING , EVEN IF LIKE MOST ASPIRATIONAL IDEALS, WE DON'T ALWAYS LIVE UP TO THE FOUNDING VISION.

>> AND THAT WAS WHAT I THINK WAS TAUGHT IN THE 60s, 70s, 80s.

WHY DID THAT UNRAVEL?

>> YOU KNOW, IT'S COME UNDER ATTACK FROM BOTH LENGTHS AT ONCE.

ON THE LEFT, THERE'S A REVOLUTION THAT HAPPENS IN THE STUDY OF HISTORY.

THE DOORS TO THE ECONOMY WIDEN.

WOMEN ARE ABLE TO ENTER THE WORKFORCE IN LARGE NUMBERS.

VARIOUS MEMBERS OF MINORITY GROUPS ANSWER.

THIS IS A WONDERFUL ADVANCEMENT FOR THE COUNTRY.

THEY SAID ABOUT TELLING MANY OF THE FORGOTTEN AND NEGLECTED STORIES.

THEY SAID ABOUT WEAVING IN TO THE FABRIC OF AMERICAN HISTORY MANY OF THE DARKER EPISODES THAT HAD RECEIVED INSUFFICIENT ATTENTION.

THAT'S A POSITIVE DEVELOPED, BUT AS TIME GOES ON, INSTEAD OF THOSE BEING THE CONTRAPUNTAL NOTES INSERTED OF A NATIONAL TEAM, THEY BECOME DOMINANT.

THEY BECOME THE ONLY THINGS THAT ARE PURSUED AND TAUGHT BY SOME SCHOLARS.

>> ARE YOU REFERRING IN SOME WAYS TO THE 1619 PROJECT THEN?

BECAUSE I YOU WRITE ABOUT IT QUITE A BIT ABOUT IT IN THIS PIECE.

>> THE DEFINING MOMENT IN THIS PIECE IS THE START OF SLAVERY, NOT THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE.

AND IT COMES OUT OF A SCHOLARLY TRADITION THAT FLOURISHED IN THE PREVIOUS 30, 40 YEARS THAT SAYS THESE THINGS THAT ARE DISTINCTIVE ABOUT AMERICA ARE ITS WRONGS, ITS SINS.

THE THINGS THAT DIFFERENTIATE AMERICA FROM OTHER LANDS, OTHER NATIONS.

>> WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE 1619 PROJECT, LET'S MAKE SURE PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT IT WAS A PROJECT DONE BY THE NEW YORK TIMES AND OTHERS, A WHOLE GROUP OF PEOPLE, THAT HAD A BIG IMPACT IN THE PAST FIVE OR 10 YEARS.

RIGHT?

EXPLAIN WHO DID IT AND WHAT SHE SAYS ABOUT IT.

>> IT WAS PUT TOGETHER BY NICOLE HUNTER JONES.

WHAT SHE DID WAS PUT TOGETHER AN ASSEMBLAGE OF SCHOLARS TO CONTRIBUTE ESSAYS THAT WOULDN'T JUST BE ABOUT THE BLACK EXPERIENCE IN AMERICA BUT WOULD TRY TO REWRITE THE AMERICAN NARRATIVE CENTERING THE BLACK EXPERIENCE, NOT TELLING A NEW STORY BUT RETELLING THE NATIONAL STORY FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE.

IN MANY WAYS, IT REFLECTED THE FRUITS OF THIS SCHOLARSHIP THAT WE GET AS THE DIVERSITY OF HISTORIANS WERE TELLING THE AMERICAN STORY INCREASES.

THERE'S LOTS OF REALLY GOOD HISTORY IN THAT PROJECT, BUT ON THE WHOLE, THE FRAME IS THAT AMERICA STARTS IN A DARK PLACE, AND REMAINS A COUNTRY DEFINED BY ITS INJUSTICES.

THAT IS THE OVERALL THRUST OF THE PROJECT.

IT PROVOKES A FURIOUS BACKLASH FROM THE RED, WHICH HAS IN ANY CASE BEEN PUSHING BACK AGAINST THIS SORT OF HISTORY FOR DECADES.

WHICH SAYS, NO, YOU'RE GETTING AMERICA ALL WRONG.

THIS IS A NATION THAT WAS CONCEIVED WITH GODLY PURPOSE AND TO THE EXTENT THAT WE HAVE SOMETIMES DEVIATED FROM OUR HIGH IDEALS, THAT'S A MATTER FOR THE FOOTNOTES.

YOU KNOW, THE KEYNOTES TO SOUND ABOUT THE WRECK AND HISTORY ARE THE TRIUMPHAL ONES.

IF YOU HAVE DEVIATED FROM OUR IDEALS THAT'S NOT TO SAY THOSE CONCEPTIONS WERE EVER FLAWED OR, YOU KNOW, THAT THE MEN WHO MADE THOSE MISTAKES SHOULDN'T BE TAKEN TO BE REPRESENTATIVE OF THE AMERICAN PROJECT.

WE SHOULD FOCUS ON THE THINGS WE'VE DONE RIGHT, AND THAT TRIUMPHALIST NARRATIVE, THE HYPER AMERICAN NARRATIVE COMES TO TAKE ROOT ON THE RIGHT AND PRESIDENT TRUMP IN HIS FIRST TERM IN RESPONSE TO THE 6019 PROJECT WATCHES THAT 1776 COMMISSION THAT WILL TRY TO ADVANCE A PATRIOTIC HISTORY INSTEAD OF EMPHASIZING ONLY THE BAD IN AMERICAN HISTORY, IT WILL TRY TO LOOK ONLY AT THE GOOD ANSWER YOU GET THIS -- THIS SORT OF DOWNWARD SPIRAL AS THE RIGHT AND THE LEFT PUT FORTH TWO DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED VERSIONS OF HISTORY AND NEITHER ONE LOOKS LIKE WHAT AMERICANS TELL US THEY BELIEVE ABOUT THE PASTOR WANT TO LEARN ABOUT THE PAST.

OVERWHELMINGLY, I CAN SAY, OUR COUNTRY IS COME TO GET IT.

I WANT TO KNOW THE BAD AND THE GOOD.

I WANT TO GRAPPLE THE COMPLEXITY.

I WANT THE FULL PICTURE.

I WANT THE HONEST TRUTH.

THAT IS WHERE MOST AMERICANS ARE.

IT'S NOT THE NARRATIVE THAT YOU CAN FIND ON EITHER EXTREME AT THE MOMENT.

>> WELL, IF YOU SAY AT THE MOMENT MOST AMERICANS WANT THE COMPLEXITY OF AMERICAN HISTORY, ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT PRESIDENT TRUMP NOW, NOT JUST IN HIS FIRST TERM, TRYING TO TAKE THINGS OUT OF EVERYTHING FROM THE SMITHSONIAN TO THE NATIONAL PARKS AND MAKE THE HISTORY A LITTLE MORE SANITIZED?

>> I AM EXTREMELY WORRIED THAT THE MAN IS NOT A REAL PATRIOT.

IF YOU REALLY LOVE YOUR COUNTRY, IF YOU BELIEVE IN THE POWER OF THE AMERICAN STORY, THEN YOU DON'T NEED TO CENSOR IT.

THEN YOU BELIEVE THAT AMERICANS CAN KNOW THE TRUTH ABOUT THEIR COUNTRY AND STILL LOVE IT.

AND SO THERE IS A CURIOUS LACK OF CONFIDENCE THAT IS ON DISPLAY WHENEVER THE PRESIDENT ORDERS EXPLANATORY PLAQUE OR TAKEN DOWN, A TEXTBOOK EXCISED FROM THE CURRICULUM.

WHAT IS HAPPENING THERE IS A SORT OF CURIOUS AND FRAGILE APPROACH TO THE PAST.

ONE WHICH SAYS, AMERICANS AREN'T CAPABLE OF HOLDING MULTIPLE IDEAS IN THEIR HEAD AT THE SAME TIME.

THEY CAN'T UNDERSTAND THAT WE HAVE SOMETIMES FALLEN SHORT OF OUR IDEALS.

IT IS DANGEROUS TO TELL THE TRUTH.

I DON'T THINK IT'S EVER DANGEROUS TO TELL THE TRUTH.

WHEN I TALKED TO NICOLE AT THE TIME, ONE OF THE THINGS SHE TOLD ME IS THAT PATRIOTISM WAS ALWAYS A WORD THAT SHE HAS DRAWN WITH SUSPICION.

FATHER'S COMMITMENT TO RAISE THE AMERICAN FLAG.

UNTIL SHE REALLY STARTED RESEARCHING THE 1619 PROJECT AND CAME ACROSS THE NARRATIVES AND STATEMENTS MADE BY FREED PEOPLE WHICH SHE EXPECTED TO SAY TO HECK WITH AMERICA I'M GOING SOMEPLACE ELSE AND I'M GOING TO LEAVE THE PLANT THAT OPPRESSED ME.

INSTEAD WHAT SHE FOUND THEM SAYING IS THIS IS MY COUNTRY AND I WANT TO MAKE SURE IT LIVES UP TO ITS IDEALS AND THAT ACTUALLY FIRED THE FIRST SPARKS OF PATRIOTISM WITHIN HER.

I THINK THAT'S OFTEN THE CASE, THAT LOOKING BACK AT THESE DARKER CHAPTERS CAN BE DISCOURAGING BUT IT IS ALSO A SOURCE OF CONTINUED INSPIRATION BECAUSE EVEN THE DARKEST MOMENTS IN OUR HISTORY, THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE WHO CHOSE TO STAND UP FOR THE AMERICAN IDEAL, CHOSE TO FIGHT FOR IT AND CHOSE TO TRY TO MAKE THIS COUNTRY COME CLOSER TO THE VISION IT HAD SET.

>> YOU TALKED ABOUT HOW BOTH SIDES OF THE FAR LEFT, THE FAR RIGHT HAD TRIED TO GRAB THAT THE NARRATIVE AND MAKE IT THEIR OWN IN DIFFERENT WAYS AND THAT THAT HAS CAUSED PART OF THIS PROBLEM BUT YOU ALSO WRITE ABOUT ANOTHER CAUSE OF THIS PROBLEM, WHICH IS, WE QUIT TEACHING HISTORY.

WHY DO WE DO THAT?

>> IT WAS ONE OF THE REMARKABLE THINGS I FOUND RESEARCHING THIS WAS SORT OF AN UNEXPECTED DOWNSIDE OF THE EDUCATIONAL REFORMS IN THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION THAT THE NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND REFORMS -- THESE WERE INTENDED TO MAKE SURE SCHOOLS THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY WERE NOT FILLING THEIR STUDENTS BY IMPOSING NATIONAL STANDARDS AND TESTING RIGOR LOOSELY TO MAKE SURE SCHOOLS MET THEM.

THEY AGREED ON STANDARDS FOR MATH.

THEY AGREED ON STANDARDS FOR ENGLISH.

THEY SHOVED HISTORY TO THE SIDE NOT BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT IT WAS UNIMPORTANT BUT BECAUSE IT WAS SO FIERCELY CONTESTED IT THREATENED TO SINK THE ENTIRE ENDEAVOR AND THE PREDICTABLE RESULT WAS THAT SCHOOLS THAT STARTED STRUGGLING ON MATH OR ENGLISH TO MEET THE STANDARDS WOULD CUT THE CLASSROOM TIME DEVOTED TO HISTORY AND SOCIAL STUDIES ON AVERAGE BY A THIRD IN THE YEARS RIGHT AFTER NCLB PASSED.

ATHLETIC COACHES THAT NEEDED TO FIND FULL-TIME JOBS FOR, MOVE THEM OUT OF ENGLISH AND MATH CLASSROOMS AND INTO HISTORY CUSTOMS WHERE THEIR PERFORMANCE WASN'T GOING TO BE EVALUATED IN THE SAME WAY.

THE PRAYER --THE SCHOOLS FUNDING WOULD NOT BE -- THE STEPCHILD DOES THAT'S NOT TO SAY THERE AREN'T FIND HISTORY TEACHERS OUT THERE.

THERE ARE MANY WHO ARE LABORING MIGHTILY IN AMERICA'S CLASSROOMS, BUT, IT IS THE IRONIC RESULT OF HISTORY HAVING BEEN SO IMPORTANT TO EVERYONE THAT THEY COULDN'T AGREE ON WHAT WE SHOULD TEACH IS THAT HISTORY HAS RECEIVED FEWER RESOURCES.

HISTORY INSTRUCTORS ARE LESS LIKELY TO HAVE A DEGREE IN THE SUBJECT THEY ARE TEACHING AND TEACHERS AND OTHER SUBJECTS.

IT HAS BECOME SOMETHING THAT REALLY GETS SHORT SHRIFT IN THE EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM.

>> AND SO NOW, AS WE GO INTO THE 250th, GIVE ME SOME EXAMPLES OF WHERE YOU SEE THE ABANDONMENT.

THESE ARE YOUR WORDS.

THE ABANDONMENT OF THE EFFORT TO TELL THE AMERICAN STORY AND COULD WE HAVE USED --I THINK WE MISSED THE CHANCE --COULD WE HAVE USED THIS CELEBRATION TO RESTORE THAT?

>> YOU KNOW, WE'VE HAD TWO PRESIDENTIAL ADMITTED PATIENTS INVOLVED IN PLANNING FOR 250th IN A HEAVY WAY.

THE BIDEN ADMISSION FELT IN ONE DIRECTION.

RATHER THAN CREATING UNIFYING EVENTS OR REALLY TRYING TO PUT ANY KIND OF JUST BEHIND THE CELEBRATION, IT CLEANED IN SORT OF AN ALMOST CARICATURE OF THE PROGRESSIVE APPROACH TO THESE THINGS.

IT LAUNCHED A BIG WORLD HISTORY INITIATIVE TO ASK EVERY AMERICAN TO TELL THEIR OWN STORY.

CREATED SORT OF DOWNLOADABLE KITS THAT LOCAL ORGANIZATIONS, MUSEUMS, HISTORICAL SOCIETIES COULD USE TO BRAND THE THINGS THAT THEY'RE GOING TO BE DOING ANYWAY.

EVERY INDIVIDUAL, EVERY COMMUNITY WAS ENCOURAGED TO TELL THE STORY FOR ITSELF.

BUT THERE WAS NO ABILITY TO PULL TOGETHER ANYTHING COMMON FOR FEAR OF WHAT WOULD BE EXCLUDED, WHO WOULD BE OFFENDED SO THERE WAS A TOTAL ABDICATION.

ON THE OTHER HAND, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS COME IN AND IT VERY MUCH LOVES SPECTACLE.

IT HAS WANTED TO CREATE BIG EVENTS, BUT IT HAS NOT HAD ANY DESIRE TO DO IS TO CREATE UNIFYING EVENTS.

THESE EVENTS THAT WE'VE SEEN SO FAR, LIKE THE UFC MATCH ON THE SOUTH LAWN, HAD BEEN BIPARTISAN SPECKLES THAT BUT THE PRESIDENT RIGHT AT THE HEART OF IT.

HE IS SCHEDULED TO KICK OFF THE BIG STATE FAIR HERE IN WASHINGTON, D. C. WITH A SPEECH PUTTING AGAIN A MORE PARTISAN VALENCE --A GROUP THAT CONTROLS AND HAS TAKEN OVER MUCH OF THE SUBMISSION DOES A GROUP CALLED AMERICA 250 THAT HAS SEIZED THE MANTLE FROM AMERICAN CHARTER AND THE AMERICA 250 COMMISSION, SO IF THE DEMOCRATS COULDN'T THINK OF ANY UNIFYING STORY FOR THE COUNTRY TO TELL ITSELF, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS TACKED HARD ANY OTHER --OPPOSITE DIRECTION AND IT HAS A STORY TO TELL BUT IT IS A NARROWLY PARTISAN VISION AND ONE THAT EXCLUDES MANY AMERICANS SO WE ARE LEFT WITH REALLY A UNIFYING SPECTACLE AND THAT IS REALLY STRANGE.

IT HAS OFTEN BEEN THE CASE THAT THESE ANNIVERSARY YEARS HAVE COME ABOUT IN REALLY DIFFICULT MOMENTS.

IT'S NOT AS IF THIS IS A UNIQUE CHALLENGE.

IT IS A UNIQUE FAILURE.

>> ONE OF THE EXPRESSIONS OF THE PARTISAN FORCES RIPPING APART HISTORY CAME WITH THE MONUMENT REMOVALS AND THEN THE BACKLASH TO THE MONUMENT REMOVALS.

WHY DID THAT ALL OCCUR AND WHAT EFFECT DID THAT HAVE?

>> YOU KNOW, THE PROTEST MOVEMENTS THAT BEGAN BY TARGETING THE CONFEDERATE MEMORIALS TOOK THE CLASSIC TACK OF THE LEFT THROUGH MOST OF AMERICAN HISTORY AND SAID, THERE ARE THINGS THAT ARE NOT LIVING UP TO AMERICAN IDEALS.

ERECTING A STATUE OF SOMEBODY WHO TOOK UP ARMS AGAINST THIS COUNTRY IS THE TRAIL OF BASIC PATRIOTISM.

THAT WAS THE INITIAL ARGUMENT.

AND IT GARNERED BROAD PUBLIC SUPPORT FOR THE REMOVAL OF THE CONFEDERATE MEMORIALS BUT IT VERY QUICKLY SPUN WELL BEYOND THOSE BOUNDS AND INSTEAD OF LABELING THAT --LEVELING THAT SAME CRITIQUE, IT RESULTED IN THE REMOVAL OF MANY OTHER STAGES OF HISTORICAL FIGURES FOR VARIOUS SINCE THEY WERE SAID TO HAVE COMMITTED, AND AT THAT POINT, IT SORT OF JUMPED OVER INTO THE KIND OF NARRATIVE OF THE AMERICAN PAST THAT STRESSES THE SINS ABOVE THE TRIUMPHS THAT SAYS, TO THE EXTENT THAT ANY PARTICULAR HISTORICAL CHARACTER CAN BE TIED TO WRONGDOING THEN THAT PERSON IS NO SAINT AND SHOULDN'T BE MEMORIALIZED.

BUT ALL OF OUR FOUNDERS WERE NOT SAINTS.

VERY FEW OF US ARE SAINTS EITHER.

SO THE CALLING DOWN OF ICONOCLASM LEFT MANY IMMIGRANTS FEELING AS IF THAT THEIR OWN UNDERSTANDING OF THEMSELVES AND THEIR COUNTRY WAS BEING THREATENED AND WE SAW A SUDDEN AND DRAMATIC ACTING OF SUPPORT FOR THAT MOVEMENT AND A BACKLASH AGAINST IT AND NOW DONALD TRUMP IS PROMISING A STATUARY PARK WITH 250 GREAT AMERICAN'S INCLUDING STAGES OF MANY FOLKS WHO WERE REMOVED IN THAT SPASM OF ICONOCLASM SO AGAIN AND AGAIN, WE SEE THE CYCLE OF ACTION AND COUNTER REACTION INSTEAD OF AN EFFORT TO BRIDGE THE CHASM AND FIND THE COMMON THINGS THAT WE CAN RALLY AROUND.

>> YONI APPELBAUM, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> AND FINALLY, WORLD CUP FEVER IS WELL AND TRULY HERE.

AND NOT EVEN A TWO HOUR STORM BREAK IN PHILADELPHIA COULD STOP THE PARTYING.

I ACTUALLY WATCHED THIS GAME.

FRANCE FRIENDS --FANS NURSING CELEBRATING AND SINGING FOLLOWING THEIR VICTORY OVER IRAQ.

AND ALGERIA CLAIMED THEIR FIRST VICTORY IN THE TOURNAMENT AGAINST JORDAN.

IT'S A WAY THAT'S NOT ONLY BROUGHT GREAT JOY AT HOME BUT ALSO A SHARED TRANSFER LAWRENCE, KANSAS, HOME OF THE ALGERIAN SQUATS BASE CAMP.

IT'S A SMALL COLLEGE CITY THAT HAS EMBRACED THE TEAM AS ITS OWN.

SOME HAVE DUBBED THIS TOURNAMENT AS A GIANT INTERNATIONAL SLEEP EVER AND SEEING THESE SCENES, IT'S HARD TO DISAGREE.

BEST OF LUCK TO ALL OF THOSE PLAYING INCOMING BADGES.

THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.

ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AMANPOUR AND COMPANY ON PBS.

JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.

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