>> Reilly: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON": I'M ADAM REILLY, IN FOR JIM BRAUDE.

STATE SENATOR SONIA CHANG-DIAZ MADE IT OFFICIAL THIS WEEK, JOINING FORMER STATE SENATOR BEN DOWNING AND HARVARD'S DANIELLE ALLEN IN THE 2022 GUBERNATORIAL RACE.

THAT COULD RAMP UP THE PRESSURE ON THE BIG-NAME MAYBES WHO ARE WEIGHING BIDS: DEMOCRATIC ATTORNEY GENERAL MAURA HEALEY AND, OF COURSE, THE CURRENT GOVERNOR, REPUBLICAN CHARLIE BAKER.

POLIÍTICO MASSACHUSETTS' LISA KASHINSKY AND U-MASS BOSTON POLITICAL SCIENCE PROFESSOR ERIN O'BRIEN JOIN ME TO SIZE UP THE RACE AND WHERE IT'S HEADING.

THEN, LATER, A LONG, OVERDUE ME-TOO MOVEMENT IN THE BREWING INDUSTRY, WITH WOMEN AND PEOPLE OF COLOR FROM ACROSS THE COUNTRY SHARING THEIR EXPERIENCES OF ABUSE AND HARASSMENT AFTER ONE LOCAL BREWER SHARED HER STORY HERE IN BOSTON.

♪♪ >> Reilly: IT MAY SEEM LIKE THE NEXT MASSACHUSETTS GOVERNOR'S ELECTION IS A LONG WAY OFF, BUT, ACTUALLY, THE CONTEST IS ALREADY UNDERWAY AND EVOLVING BY THE DAY.

DEMOCRATIC STATE SENATOR SONIA CHANG-DIAZ JUMPED IN ABOUT 24 HOURS AGO, SAYING HER DECADE-PLUS IN THE LEGISLATURE HAS TAUGHT HER HOW TO LIGHT A FIRE UNDER BEACON HILL ON ISSUES LIKE EDUCATION AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM.

>> I AM RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR TO BUILD THE COMMONWEALTH WE ALL WANT OUR CHILDREN TO GROW UP IN AND THAT I KNOW IN MY BONES IS POSSIBLE.

AND I AM ASKING YOU TO COME AND MAKE IT WITH ME.

>> Reilly: IF SHE WINS, CHANG-DIAZ WOULD BE THE FIRST LATINO TO LEAD MASSACHUSETTS.

HER DEMOCRATIC RIVAL, DANIELLE ALLEN, WHO ANNOUNCED HER CANDIDACY LAST WEEK, WOULD BE THE FIRST BLACK WOMAN TO RUN THE STATE.

SHE'S A HARVARD POLITICAL SCIENTIST AND A FORMER MACARTHUR GENIUS GRANT RECIPIENT, WHO SAYS COVID SHOWED THE COMMONWEALTH'S CIVIC BONDS ARE DANGEROUSLY FRAYED.

>> THERE WAS A LOT OF TALK ABOUT HOW WE'RE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER, ALL IN THE SAME BOAT.

BUT IT BECAME PRETTY CLEAR THAT SOME OF US WERE IN SINKING COWS, WHILE SOME WERE IN THE SAME YACHTS THEY'VE ALWAYS BEEN IN.

>> Reilly: AND THEN THERE IS THE FIRST CANDIDATE TO MAKE IT OFFICIAL, FORMER STATE SENATOR BEN DOWNING, WHOSE BEEN RUNNING SINCE FEBRUARY AND IS MAKING INEQUALITY A FOCUS OF HIS CAMPAIGN, TOO.

>> FOR TOO LONG WE'VE SEEN INCOME BECOME CONCENTRATED IN A FEW COMMUNITIES, WHILE OUR BLACK AND BROWN NEIGHBORS CONTINUE TO BEAR THE BRUNT OF ENVIRONMENTAL INJUSTICE, DEEPENING THE LEGACY OF DREAMS DEFERRED.

WE'VE BEEN TOLD THESE TRADEOFFS ARE NECESSARY.

THEY'RE NOT.

>> Reilly: WHICH BRINGS US TO THE MAYBES, INCLUDING DEMOCRATIC ATTORNEY GENERAL MAURA HEALEY AND REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR CHARLIE BAKER, WHO SAID TODAY ON "BOSTON PUBLIC RADIO" HE'S STILL WEIGHING WHETHER TO SEEK A THIRD TERM.

>> PEOPLE ASK ME, WHEN SENATE SEATS HAVE COME UP, OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, YOU KNOW, ANY INTEREST IN -- IN RUNNING FOR FEDERAL OFFICE?

NO!

>> Braude: ANY INTEREST IN RUNNING FOR STATE OFFICE?

>> AGAIN?

>> MY WIFE AND I WILL MAKE THAT DECISION, IN CONJUNCTION WITH THE LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR.

>> Reilly: SO HOW LONG CAN BAKER, HEALEY, AND OTHER POSSIBLE CANDIDATES WAIT TO MAKE A DECISION?

AND AS THINGS STAND NOW, WHO IS THE DEMOCRATIC FAVORITE?

JOINING ME TO SIZE UP WHERE THINGS STAND, AND WHERE THEY MIGHT BE HEADING, ARE LISA KASHINSKY, WHO WRITES POLIÍTICO'S MASSACHUSETTS PLAYBOOK, AND ERIN O'BRIEN, A PROFESSOR OF POLITICAL SCIENCE AT U-MASS BOSTON.

>> Braude: THANK YOU BOTH FOR BEING HERE.

>> IT'S FUN!

>> Reilly: LET ME START WITH YOU, YOU ERIN, WHEN YOU AND I TALKED YESTERDAY BEFORE CHANG-DIAZ'S ANNOUNCEMENT, YOU SAID YOU THOUGHT SHE IS WAS THE TOP CONTENDER IN THE DEMOCRATIC FIELD.

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT?

>> BECAUSE SHE HAS A CRITIQUE OF CHARLIE BAKER THAT IS CONSISTENT AND SUSTAINED.

SHE COMES FROM THE EASTERN PART OF THE STATE, WHERE THE POPULATION IS MOST DENSE.

DANIELLE ALLEN IS IMPRESSIVE, BUT SHE IS NOT A HOUSEHOLD NAME, AND THE SAME GOES TO BEN DOWNING.

>> Reilly: LISA, DO YOU SHARE ERIN'S ASSESSMENT THAT RIGHT OFF THE BAT, CHANG-DIAZ IS THE ONE TO BEAT?

>> I DO.

SHE IS THE ONE IN THE FIELD WHO IS CURRENTLY IN OFFICE.

SO SHE HAS EASY WAYS TO INSERT HERSELF INTO THE MIDDLE OF THE CONVERSATION, KEEPING THE MEDIA IN, AND SHE ALSO, RIGHT NOW, HAS THE BACKING OF THOSE YOUNG PROGRESSIVE ACTIVISTS, ONLINE ACTIVISTS, AND SHE HAS THAT MOVEMENT BEHIND HER AND ALL OF THOSE THINGS KIND OF PROPEL HER TO THE TOP OF THE PACK.

>> Reilly: YOU ARE ALLUDING TO THE SO-CALLED MARKEY VERSE, WHO A GROUP OF YOUNGER PEOPLE FLEXING THEIR MUSCLES RIGHT NOW?

>> YES.

AND TO BE CLEAR, THEY'RE NOT MONOLITHIC.

NOT ALL OF THEM ARE AUTOMATICALLY BEHIND CHANG-DIAZ, BUT A LOT OF pTHEM ARE AND THEY'RE GOING TO PLAY A BIG ROLE IN THE '22 GUBERNATORIAL RACE.

>> Reilly: AND I WILL SAY THE PRESENCE OF THEM ON THE STAND NEXT TO CHANG-DIAZ OR BEHIND HER ARE ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS I NOTICED AT HER EVENT.

I WANT TO SHOW OUR VIEWERS SOME POLL NUMBERS BECAUSE EVEN THOUGH THIS RACE IS STILL TAKING SHAPING, PEOPLE HAVE BEEN LOOKING AT IT FOR A WHILE.

THERE WAS A WCBB IS POLL DONE THAT SHOWED HYPOTHETICAL MATCHUPS.

SONIA CHANG-DIAZ WAS THE STRONGEST OF THOSE IN THE RACE.

A HUGE CHUNK OF PEOPLE WEREN'T SURE.

45%.

DANIELLE ALLEN DID A LITTLE WORSE, 31-14, WITH 49 NOT SURE.

AND BEN DOWNING WAS A TINY BIT WEAKER.

BAKER WAS AT 31%.

AND 12% SAID THEY WOULD BE INCLINED TO SUPPORT BEN DOWNING.

AND ABOUT HALF WERE NOT SURE.

IS IT A THIRD OF THE ELECTORATE, MAYBE A LITTLE LESS, SAYING THEY WOULD BACK HIM RIGHT NOW IN THE ELECTION WAS HELD RIGHT NOW, ARE THOSE NUMBERS SURPRISING SINCE HIS NUMBERS WERE HIGH, AROUND 70%, AROUND HIS GOVERNORSHIP.

>> MAYBE HIS NUMBERS ARE A BIT SOFT WITH THE COVID ROLLOUT.

IN ALMOST ANY RACE, EVEN IF YOU HAVE A POPULAR GOVERNOR, AT THIS POINT, ESPECIALLY WHEN MOST VOTERS DON'T KNOW THOSE OTHER CANDIDATES, I DON'T PUT A WHOLE LOT -- UNSURPRISINGLY, I DON'T PUT A WHOLE LOT OF WEIGHT IN THOSE POLLS RGHT NOW.

DOES IT SHOW HE MIGHT BE A LITTLE SOFT?

SURE.

BUT CHARLIE BAKER IS FORBIDFORBIDDABLE.

AND AFTER HIS INITIAL LOSS AGAINST -- BACK IN THE DAY, HE HAS REALLY SHOWED HIMSELF TO BE POPULAR.

SO, NO, I WOULDN'T READ MUCH INTO THOSE NUMBERS.

IF I WAS CHARLIE BAKER THINK ABOUT RUNNING, HE IS RICH, AND THE LAST TWO YEARS, YEAR AND A HALF, HAVE BEEN REALLY DIFFICULT, BUT I HAVE NO INSIDER INFORMATION THERE.

I DON'T THINK THE POLLS ARE GOING TO DISSUADE HIM FROM RUNNING.

>> Reilly: BOTH OF YOUR OBSERVATIONS DO CHECK OUT.

THAT'S THE WAY I WOULD THINK ABOUT IT IF I WERE IN HIS SHOES.

LISA, WHAT IS YOUR SENSE SO FAR, AND IT IS REALLY EARLY, CHANG-DIAZ IS A KNOWN QUANTITY, BUT WHAT IS YOUR SENSE, OTHER THAN DEMOGRAPHIC DETAILS AND THEIR RESUMES, ARE THERE CLEAR DIVIDING LINES BETWEEN THEM ON ISSUES AND THE WAY THEY VIEW THE WORLD?

OR ARE THEY SORT ON THE SAME PAGE?

>> THEY'RE ALL RUNNING AT PROGRESSIVES, BUT EVEN WITHIN THAT THERE ARE DIFFERENCES.

IT IS EARLY, AS YOU SAY.

BUT THERE ARE DIFFERENCES EMERGING IN THE ISSUES THAT THEY'RE CHOOSING TO PINPOINT.

YOU HAVE SONIA CHANG-DIAZ, SHE MADE A NAME FOR HERSELF WITH POLICING REFORM LAST YEAR, AND LAKE THE GROUND WORK FOR STUDENT OPPORTUNITY, WITH WHAT BECAME THE STUDENT OPPORTUNITY ACT, AND EDUCATION AND THINGS LIKE THAT WHEREAS BEN DOWNING IS STAKING HIS CLAIM AS THE CLIMATE GUY.

DANIELLE ALLEN IS STILL FORMULATING HER POLICIES, HOUSING AND JOBS AND TRANSPORTATION AS SOME OF THE THINGS SHE WILL BE FOCUSING ON.

SO I THINK YOU CAN START TO SEE THE DIFFERENCES IN THE POLICIES THEY'RE CHOOSING TO FOCUS ON AND STAKE THEIR CLAIMS TO EARLY ON.

>> Reilly: ERIN, AT WHAT POINT -- TURNING TO THE MAYBES, I WAS TRYING TO PUT THAT OFF AS LONG AS WE COULD, BUT THINK OF IT AS DESSERT.

AT WHAT POINT DOES MAURA HEALEY, IF IN FACT SHE IS GOING TO DO THIS, HAVE TO COMMIT TO DOING IT?

>> IF CHARLIE BAKER DOESN'T GET IN, YOU CAN EXPECT THE NEXT DAY MAURA HEALEY WILL GET IN.

SHE HAS A LOT OF NAME RECOGNITION.

WE FORGET THAT THIS RACE IS FOR 2022.

SO I THINK SHE HAS A FAIR AMOUNT OF TIME.

WE'RE PAYING ATTENTION TO THIS, BUT MOST VOTERS AREN'T.

THE BIGGEST QUESTION IS: WHAT DOES CHARLIE BAKER DO?

IF CHARLIE BAKER DOESN'T EXPECT FLOODGATES, THERE ARE INTERESTING PARALLELS TO THE BOSTON'S MAYORAL RACE.

ONCE MARTY WALSH LEFT FOR THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, YOU SAW FOUR MORE CANDIDATES GET IN THAT WEREN'T IN WHEN THEY HAD TO RUN AGAINST THE INCUMBENT.

>> Reilly: GOOD POINT.

>> THERE IS A PROGRESSIVE SUIT IN THE BOSTON MAYORAL AND IN THE DEMOCRATIC GOVERNOR PRIMARY RIGHT NOW.

>> Reilly: AND WE DO HAVE SOME VERY, VERY EARLY POLLING ON A HYPOTHETICAL HUEY BAKER MATCH-UP.

WHAT STRUCK ME HERE IS HEALEY DOES THE BEST OF ANY DEMOCRATIC DEMOCRAT AGAINST BAKER, AND FROM WHAT I SEE, AND I'M NO MATHEMATICIAN, BUT WHAT I SEE WHEN I LOOK AT THE NUMBERS, THE PEOPLE UNDECIDED, THEY DROP PRETTY DRAMATICALLY AND THEY ALL GO TO MAURA HEALEY, WHICH IS SOMETHING I WOULD THINK SHE WOULD BE EYEING AS SHE CONSIDERS GETTING IN.

LISA, WHAT IS YOUR SENSE OF WHERE HEALEY IS AT IN HER DECISION-MAKING PROCESS?

>> I AGREE SHE IS WAITING ON GOVERNOR BAKER.

SHE WOULD BE THE BIGGEST NAME IN THE RACE IF AND WHEN SHE DECIDES TO GO FOR IT.

SHE HAS THE STAYED WIDE STATEWIDE RECOGNITION AND THE DONORS.

SHE WOULD BE THE FRONT-RUNNER AND POSSIBLY THE PERSON WITH THE BEST CHANCE TO POSSIBLY BEAT CHARLIE BAKER IF HE RUNS AGAIN.

SHE CAN TAKE HER TIME WITH THIS.

>> I WANT TO PICK UP ON A POINT THAT LISA SAID EARLIER.

I THINK THE ONE RISK MAURA HEALEY HAS, IF SHE GETS IN RACE, THE MARKEY VERSE COULD SAY WE'RE WITH SONIA CHANG-DIAZ, AND YOU GETTING IN LATER IS OPPORTUNISTIC.

AND WE WOULD RATHER HAVE A WOMAN OF COLOR.

THAT IS ONE FACTOR THAT HEALEY WOULD HAVE TO WEIGH.

YES, SHE DEFINITELY LOOKS BETTER ON PAPER, BUT ASK JOE KENNEDY ABOUT THE POWER OF THE MARKEY VERSE.

>> Reilly: THAT'S A GREAT POINT.

I REMEMBER COVERING AN APPEARANCE THAT THE ATTORNEY GENERAL MADE ON BOSTON PUBLIC RADIO A FEW WEEKS BACK, AND THERE WERE CALLS DURING THE LISTENER PHONE-IN SEGMENT, WITH MEMBERS OF THE MARKEY VERSE WHO WERE NOT HAPPY WITH HER STANCE ON AN ISSUE, I THINK IT WAS NO- NO-KKNOCK WARRANTS -- >> YES.

>> Reilly: THANK YOU.

SHE MAY BE A TOUGH SELL WITH THE MARKEY VERSE -- >> I BELIEVE THAT SHE IS.

THAT IS AN INDICATION -- THEY'RE GOING TO POKE HOLES IN ALL OF THESE CANDIDATES, AND RIGHTFULLY SO.

EVERYONE SHOULD BE CHALLENGED ON THEIR RECORD.

THEY MADE IT CLEAR EVEN THOUGH MAUR MAURA HEALEY IS THE PROGRESSIVE BUYER BRAND, THEY'RE NOT JUST TAKING THAT IN STRIDE.

>> Reilly: LET'S WRAP UP WITH CHARLIE BAKER AND THE MASS G.O.P.

ERIN, HOW LONG CAN BAKER WAIT?

WHEN DOES SHE HAVE TO MAKE UP HIS MIND?

>> UNTIL THE DAY BEFORE THE ELECTION -- I'M KIDDING A LITTLE BIT.

BUT IT IS HIS.

OBVIOUSLY THE MASS G.O.P.

IN TERMS OF LEADERSHIP, THE JEFF DEALS, CERTAINLY DO NOT ENJOY CHARLIE BAKER, BUT THEY HAVE NOWHERE ELSE TO GO ELECTORALLY.

CHARLIE BAKER CAN WAIT AS LONG AS HE WANTS.

PRACTICALLY, THERE ARE FILING DEADLINES AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

BUT THOSE WHO DEPARTMENT FI AS THE G.O.P.IDENTIFY ASTHE G.O.P -- HE GETS TO ENJOY HIS OWN COAT TAILS, IF YOU WILL.

>> Reilly: YOU ANTICIPATED MY LAST QUESTION FOR LISA.

THERE ARE ANTI-GAY COMMENTS, CALLS FOR THE WOMAN WHO MADE THOSE, PROTESTATIONS OF CANCEL CULTURE AND NOW CALLS FOR JIM LIONS TO STEP DOWN.

DO YOU THINK THAT WHOLE MESS MAKES IT MORE OR LESS LIKELY THAT CHARLIE BAKER WILL GET A CHALLENGE FROM THE RIGHT, AGAINST SCOTT LIVELY, WHO RAN AGAINST HIM LAST TIME, OR JEFF DEAL?

>> YES, JEFF DEAL IS INTERESTED.

WHETHER HE GOES FOR IT REHANES TO BEREMAINS TO BE SEEN.

IT IS MOR MORE FODDER FOR DEMOCRATS, AND CHARLIE GETS IN THE RACE, IT WILL AFFECT HIM IN THE PRIMARY SENSE.

>> Reilly: ON THAT NOTE, LISA KASHINSKY AND ERIN O'BRIEN, THANK YOU BOTH FOR TALKING THIS THROUGH.

>> IT'S BEEN ENJOYABLE.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Reilly: IT'S BEEN YEARS SINCE THE #MeTOO MOVEMENT SWEPT THROUGH HOLLYWOOD, BRINGING LONG, OVERDUE CONSEQUENCES FOR HARASSERS AND ABUSERS IN MEDIA AND ENTERTAINMENT, BUT THERE ARE STILL PLENTY OF PEOPLE AND ENTIRE INDUSTRIES IN NEED OF SUCH SCRUTINY.

INCLUDING THE OVERWHELMING WHITE AND MALE CRAFT BEER INDUSTRY.

IN THE PAST MONTH, WOMEN AND PEOPLE OF COLOR FROM BREWERIES AROUND THE WORLD HAVE BEEN TAKING TO SOCIAL MEDIA TO SHARE THEIR EXPERIENCES OF ABUSE, ASSAULT, AND HARASSMENT.

IT KICKED OFF HERE IN BOSTON, WHEN BRIENNE ALLAN POSTED ABOUT HER EXPERIENCE WITH A GROUP OF CONTRACTORS AT NOTCH BREWING'S TAPROOM IN BRIGHTON, WRITING: "A MAN IS LITERALLY TALKING TO ME LIKE A DOG RIGHT NOW."

SHE THEN ENCOURAGED OTHER BREWERS TO SHARE THEIR STORIES, AND THEY DID, HUNDREDS OF THEM.

THE FLOOD OF MESSAGES HAS PROMPTED PLEDGES FROM MANY BREWERIES IN THE AREA TO DO BETTER, AND SOME NOTABLE PERSONNEL CHANGES.

LORD HOBO C.E.O.

DAN LANIGAN WAS REPLACED AFTER HE WAS ACCUSED OF SEXUAL HARASSMENT IN SEVERAL ANONYMOUS POSTS ON INSTAGRAM, AND ALMOST THE ENTIRE OWNERSHIP GROUP OF WORCESTER'S WORMTOWN BREWER STEPPED BACK FROM DIRECT INVOLVEMENT IN OPERATIONS THERE AFTER CLAIMS OF HARASSING AND DISCRIMINATORY BEHAVIOR THERE.

MY NEXT GUESTS HAVE SOME INSIDER PERSPECTIVE ON HOW BAD THE PROBLEM IS IN THE LOCAL CRAFT BEER INDUSTRY AND HOW TO CHANGE THINGS FOR THE BETTER.

I'M JOINED NOW BY MAUREEN FABRY, CO-OWNER AND HEAD BREWER AT MILFORD'S CRAFT ROOTS BREWING, AND DANI BABINEAU, CO-FOUNDER AND C.E.O.

OF REDEMPTION ROCK BREWING CO. >> Reilly: THANK YOU BOTH FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Reilly: MAUREEN, LET ME START WITH YOU.

WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION WHEN YOU SAW BRIENNE ALAN TAKE TO INSTAGRAM TO VENT AND THIS TORRENT OF OTHER STORIES FOLLOW?

>> TO SOME EXTENT, I WAS A BIT RELIEVED BECAUSE I pHAVE BEEN A BREWER IN THIS INDUSTRY FOR 20 PLUS YEARS.

SO I DON'T THINK IT WAS NEWS, BUT IT WAS COMPLETELY TAKEN ABACK BY THE TORRENT OF CLAIMS, AND THE RAPIDITY.

I THINK, AGAIN, WE ARE HAVING A BIT OF A RECKONING IN AN INDUSTRY THAT HAS BEEN WORKING REALLY HARD TO BE INCLUSIVE AND CREATIVE, BUT I DO THINK THAT IT IS TIME THAT WE TAKE A CLOSER LOOK AT WHAT IS REALLY HAPPENING.

>> Reilly: YOU AND YOUR WIFE RUN CRAFT ROOTS TOGETHER, AND I'M WONDERING IF THAT INSULATES YOU FROM THE DYNAMICS THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE, OR IF THIS STUFF IS SO PERVASIVE THAT YOU MANAGED TO BUMP UP AGAINST IT AND HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT ANYWAY?

>> I THINK IT IS A LOT OF THE FORMER RATHER THAN THE LATTER.

WHEN WE STARTED IN 2017, WE HAVE BEEN, I THINK, PRETTY INSULATED FROM RUBBING UP AGAINST SOME OF THESE TYPES OF BEHAVIORS AND THIS TYPE OF THING HAPPENING IN THE INDUSTRY.

THAT BEING SAID, I TRIED TO BE INVOLVED WITH THE MASS BREWERS' GUILD AND ALSO INVOLVED IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BUT IT IS QUITE A LUXURY TO BE ABLE TO OPEN YOUR OWN BREWERY, OPEN IT UP WITH YOUR WIFE, HIRE THE MOST DIVERSE GROUP THAT YOU CAN COME ACROSS, AND REALLY TRY TO REPRESENT YOURSELF IN A WAY THAT FEELS WHOLE, WHEN I KNOW THAT IS TRULY NOT THE CASE FOR THE VAST MAJOR IN THE BREWERY INDUSTRY.

>> Reilly: I THINK THERE IS A WIDER RANGE OF ISSUES HERE THAN WE CAN DO JUSTICE TO, BUT WHEN WE TALKED ABOUT SEXISM IN PARTICULAR IN THE CRAFT BEER INDUSTRY, WHERE DO YOU, IN THE WORK YOU DO NOW AND THE WORK YOU'VE DONE LEADING UP TO HERE, WHERE DO YOU SEE THAT MANIFEST FROM?

IS IT FROM CO-WORKERS, FROM BOSSES?

IS IT FROM COSTUMERS?

IS IT ALL OF THE ABOVE AND MORE THINGS THAT I DIDN'T EVEN THINK OF?

>> I THINK THERE IS KIND OF A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE AND WHAT I HEAR FROM MY COLLEAGUES AND OTHER WOMEN WHO WORK IN THE INDUSTRY.

AND JUST THE FACT THAT I, ESSENTIALLY, MY OWN BOSS.

I DO HAVE THREE MALE CO-FOUNDERS, BUT OTHER THAN THAT, WE'VE ACTUALLY NEVER HIRED ANY MEN HERE.

WE DO A BLIND HIRING PROCESS, SO IT WASN'T INTENTIONAL, BUT IT WAS AS A RESULT OF THAT PROCESS THAT WE ENDED UP WITH ONLY WOMEN EMPLOYEES.

SO WE ALSO FEEL LIKE WE'RE A LITTLE INS INSULATED JUST BY THE WAY WE RUN THINGS HERE.

I HAVE PERSONALLY HAVE EXPERIENCED SEXISM IN THE CRAFT BEER INDUSTRY, AND COMING FROM ARCHITECTURE AND CONSTRUCTION BEFORE THAT.

IN OUR TAP ROOM, IT IS MOSTINGMOSTLY COMING FROM COSTUMERS, WHETHER IT IS THE SOCIAL JOKING OR CASUAL SEXISM.

I ENDURED A PRESENTATION I WAS MAKING OVER ZOOM WITH CAT CALLS BY A CUSTOMER WHILE I WAS TRYING TO MAKE A PRESENTATION, WHICH WAS INCREDIBLY IRONIC BECAUSE IT WAS ABOUT THIS STUFF IN GENERAL.

SO THAT KIND OF STUFF IS SOMETHING THAT I THINK AS WOMEN WE'RE USED TO BRUSHING OFF.

YOU KNOW, WHETHER IT IS A CASUAL THING FROM SOMEBODY WALKING DOWN THE STREET AND YELLING SOMETHING AT YOU -- THAT'S THE STUFF WE JUST ALMOST BLOCK OUT BECAUSE IT IS SO FREQUENT.

BUT EVEN OUR PROCESS OF GETTING OPEN, WHERE WE HAD TO RAISE A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF MONEY, AND WE DEFINITELY HAD A HARDER TIME DOING THAT BECAUSE HAVING A FEMALE BASE IN THE BREWERY -- WHETHER IT WAS GOING TO MEETINGS, AND I STOPPED BRINGING MY MALE CO-WORKERS BECAUSE PEOPLE WOULD DIRECT QUESTIONS TO THEM THAT THEY DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO ANSWER BECAUSE THAT WASN'T THEIR ROLE IN THE BUSINESS.

OR I TALKED TO MEN WHO TOOKSAYIT TOOK THEM A LONG TIME TO OPEN, LIKE SEVEN MONTHS, AND IT TOOK YOU THREE YEARS.

AND I WROTE THE BUSINESS PLAN MYSELF.

AND THEY ASK WHO I HIRED TO WRITE IT FOR ME, WHICH IS NOT EXPERIENCES THAT MALE COLLEAGUES HAVE HEARD.

>> Reilly: I KNOW YOU TWO ARE PART OF THE MASS BREWERS GUILD, THE DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION COMMITTEE.

WHAT SORT OF WORK IS THAT TRADE GROUP DOING TO TRY TO ALLEVIATE SOME OF THE PROBLEMS HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS?

>> I WOULD SAY WE'RE IN AN INTERESTING POSITION AS A TRADE.

BECAUSE WE'RE TRYING TO FOCUS REALLY ON EDUCATION, PROVIDING RESOURCES, AS WELL AS PROVIDING A SET OF STANDARDS FOR OUR MEMBERSHIP, AND MAKING SURE WE'RE HOLDING PEOPLE ACCOUNTABLE, BUT ALSO GIVING PEOPLE THE RESOURCES TO BE ABLE TO HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE TO THOSE STANDARDS.

SO EVERYTHING -- MAUREEN AND I ARE ON A SUBCOMMITTEE, WORKING ON A CODE OF ETHICS FOR THE GUILDS THROUGHOUT THIS YEAR, AND REALLY BEING ABLE TO FOCUS ON MAKING THIS ORGANIZATION THAT EVERY BREWERY IN THE STATE CAN BE PROUD OF BEING A MEMBER OF AND REALIZE THAT STANDS FOR SOMETHING.

AND WE'RE PROVIDING RESOURCES, WHETHER IT IS PEOPLE STRUGGLING WITH HUMAN RESOURCES, AND NEEDING TO BE CONNECTED TO ASSOCIATE MEMBERS, OR JUST LEARNING WHAT KIND OF HUMAN RESOURCES THEY SHOULD HAVE IN PLACE BECAUSE THERE IS SUCH A RANGE OF MEMBERS FROM VERY, VERY SMALL BREWERIES, WHERE PEOPLE ARE JUST DOING THINGS ON THE WEEKEND.

SO YOU HAVE A HUGE RANGE OF COMPANIES THAT NEED ALL SORTS OF SUPPORT.

>> Reilly: MAUREEN, AS YOU TRY TO PUSH FOR INTERNAL CHANGES, I WONDER IF YOU GET RESISTANCE FROM PEOPLE OF POSITIONS OF POWER IN YOUR INDUSTRY -- I'M NOT ASKING YOU TO NAME NAMES, BUT IF THERE IS A RESISTANCE, HOW DO PEOPLE PUSH BACK?

DO THEY SAY YOU'RE MAKING A BIG DEAL OUT OF STUFF THAT REALLY DOESN'T MATTER THAT MUCH?

WHAT DO THEY SAY?

>> I THINK PEOPLE FORGET THAT OUR ROLE IS TO BE TRANSFORMATIVE JUST AS HUMANS, AND ALSO IN THIS INDUSTRY.

SOMETIMES WHEN WE TALK ABOUT WAYS WE CAN MAKE IMPROVEMENTS, THERE IS THAT INITIAL RESISTANCE.

MAYBE IT IS A KNEE-JERK REACTION, SOME OF THE THINGS WE'RE PROPOSING.

OR HOW ARE WE GOING TO FAIRLY TALK ABOUT WHAT THE PROCESS SHOULD BE TO REVIEW SOME ALLEGATIONS, SAY, AMONGST THEIR MEMBERS?

I THINK THOSE ARE REALLY VALID QUESTIONS.

I THINK OUR ROLE IS TO LISTEN TO THOSE, AND ALWAYS REMEMBER WE'RE TRYING TO MAKE SOME TRANSFORMATIVE CHANGES, AND WHEN YOU SEE THE TYPES OF CONVERSATIONS THAT RECENTLY HAVE BEGUN, IT IS PONER TIME FORMORE THAN TIME FOR THAT TO HAPPEN.

>> Reilly: WE'RE TALKING ABOUT SEXISM, BECAUSE I'VE BEEN FOCUSING ON SEXISM, BUT I KNOW FROM BEFORE THIS EPISODE, JUST FROM STUFF I'VE READ ONLINE, THERE IS A WHOLE SEPARATE BUT RELATED CONVERSATION ABOUT RACE AND RACISM IN THIS INDUSTRY, WITH THE OBVIOUS CAVEAT YOU'RE TWO WHITE WOMEN TALKING TO A WHITE GUY.

CAN YOU JUST OFFER AN OVERVIEW OF WHAT THE RACIAL DYNAMICS ARE IN CRAFT BEER AT LARGE?

>> I WOULD SAY THAT'S A GREAT POINT.

WE DON'T REPRESENT THE GROUP WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT HERE, BUT I THINK WE'RE SEEING A SMALLER NUMBER OF BLACK-OWNED BUSINESSES AND BREWERIES HERE IN THE STATE.

IT HAS GROWN A BIT, BUT THERE IS LOTS OF WORK THAT NEEDS TO BE DONE.

AS DANI REFERENCED WITH SOME OF THE BARRIERS TO GETTING FUNDING, I THINK SOME OF THE OLD RED-LINE POLICIES THAT ARE STILL VERY MUCH HAVING AN IMPACT.

I ALSO THINK THERE IS A MASSIVE NEED FOR PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS A VERY WELCOMING & AND OPEN AND ACCESSIBLE BEVERAGE.

SO EVERYONE CAN TASTE THESE FLAVORS HAPPENING IN BEER.

SO TO CONSIDER RACE TO BE ANY SORT OF IMPEDIMENT, WHETHER IT IS TO STARTING A BUSINESS OR OWNING A BUSINESS OR BREWING UNIQUE BEERS OR TRYING BEERS THAT MAYBE THEY HAVEN'T HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE IN THEIR COMMUNITIES.

>> Reilly: DANI, I KNOW THAT SEXISM PERMEATES SO MANY FACETS OF OUR CULTURE, MAYBE EVERY FACET.

FACET, BUT I'M WONDERING IF THERE IS SOMETHING ABOUT THE CRAFT BEER INDUSTRY, THE COSTUMERS WHO SUPPORT IT, THAT MAKE THE PROBLEM DIFFERENT IN SOME WAY.

WHETHER IT IS, FOR EXAMPLE, MEN SEEING A BAR AS A SAFE SPACE WHERE THEY GO TO BE WITH EACH OTHER, AS OPPOSED TO WITH THEIR FAMILIES.

THAT'S JUST ONE EXAMPLE.

ARE THERE DIFFERENCES WHEN IT COMES TO HOW IT MANIFESTS ITSELF IN YOUR WORLD?

OR IS IT SORT OF THE SAME PROBLEMS YOU SEE IN OTHER AREAS, BUT HERE AS WELL?

>> YEAH, I MEAN, I THINK THE DIFFERENCES IS THE RIGHT WORD; IT IS NOT NECESSARILY BETTER OR WORSE THAN IN TECH OR, YOU KNOW, ANY OTHER INDUSTRY.

BUT IT IS A LITTLE DIFFERENT, AND I THINK IT DOES HAVE TO DO WITH KIND OF THE WAY THIS INDUSTRY HAS GROWN.

THERE IS AUTOMATICALLY A LOT OF ALCOHOL AROUND, AND THAT IS OFTEN PART OF YOUR DAY-TO-DAY JOB, CHASING BEER EVERY DAY.

SO NOT EVERYBODY IS EQUIPPED TO HANDLE THAT RESPONSIBLY AND TREAT IT AS THE WORKPLACE THAT IT IS, AND KIND OF END UP TREATING IT MORE LIKE A BAR WHEN YOU'RE AT WORK, BECAUSE YOU'RE WORKING AT A BAR.

SO THERE ARE THESE LINES THAT ARE REALLY BLURRED.

AND THERE ARE THESE PEOPLE WHO STARTED THESE BREWERIES BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO GET AWAY FROM THE CORPORATE STRUCTURE, AND THEY'RE LOOKING AT THIS AS A FUN THING TO DO.

AND THEY LIKE BEER AND THE ATMOSPHERE AND THEY LIKE DRINKING, AND SO IF THEY HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF MONEY, OR ABLE TO RAISE SOME, THEY'RE STARTING A BREWERY TO BE MORE CASUAL AND HAVE FUN.

BUT THERE ARE CERTAIN CORPORATE STRUCTURES THAT YOU STILL NEED IN PLACE, BECAUSE THIS IS STILL A BUSINESS AND A WORKPLACE.

SO I THINK A LOT OF THOSE GET LEFT BEHIND BECAUSE PEOPLE WERE TRYING TO LEAVE THEM BEHIND, WHETHER CONSCIOUSLY OR SUBCONSCIOUSLY.

AND IT IS AN INDUSTRY THAT HAS EVEN A LOT OF GROWTH IN THE LAST DECADE OR SO.

SO IT IS VERY EASY TO OVERLOOK AND NOT PRIORITIZE THESE ISSUES OF HUMAN RESOURCES AND DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION EFFORTS AND REALLY MAKE THEM A REALLY KEY PART OF YOUR BUSINESS.

>> Reilly: I HAVE TO GIVE YOU BOTH A CHANCE TO -- THIS CONVERSATION IS MAKING LOOK FORWARD TO A POST-WORK BEER.

I WANT TO GIVE YOU A CHANCE TO PLUG YOUR RESPECTIVE BREWERIES.

MAUREEN, YOU'RE IN IN MILFORD?

>> YES.

>> Reilly: IS THERE A BEER PEOPLE SHOULD GET DOWN THERE TO GET THIS SUMMER.

>> THERE ARE ALWAYS EIGHT BEERS ON TAP.

I WOULD SAY (indiscernable) IT IS SUPER POPULAR.

>> Reilly: AND DANI, WHERE ARE YOU LOCATED?

>> IN WORCESTER.

AND WE'RE VERY MUCH OPENED.

>> Reilly: WHAT IS THE BEER PEOPLE SHOULD COME TASTE.

>> MY ONE FOR THIS SUMMER IS OUR HELIS LOGGER.

>> Reilly: DANI AND MAUREEN, WE THANK YOU BOTH FOR BEING HERE.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Reilly: THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT.

WE'LL BE BACK NEXT WEEK.

THANKS FOR WATCHING AND HAVE A GREAT WEEKEND.

♪♪ Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org