♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>>> THE UKRAINIAN PEOPLE PAY THE HIGHEST PRICE.

THEN -- >> CONGRESS CANNOT BEHALF LIKE OSTRICHES IN THE SAND WHEN IT COMES TO A.I.

>> AS GOVERNMENTS STRUGGLE TO REIN IN A.I., MICROSOFT PRESIDENT BRAD SMITH JOINS ME TO WEIGH THE RISKS AND THE REWARDS.

ALSO AHEAD, HOW AN AGGRESSIVE PUTIN LOOKS FROM GEORGIA.

ANOTHER COUNTRY LIVING UNDER HIS CONSTANT THREAT.

WE HEAR FROM THE GEORGIAN PRESIDENT.

PLUS -- ♪ LET'S MAKE IT A BETTER LIFE ♪ ♪ AND LEAVE IT FOR THE KIDS ♪ >> ROCK LEGEND GRAHAM NASH TALKS LOVE, MUSIC, AND MAKING A BETTER LIFE WITH WALTER ISAACSON.

>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY FUND, SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, CANDACE KING WEIR, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS, MARK J. BLECHNER, SETON J. MELVIN, BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

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THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

AS THE KREMLIN STRUGGLES TO CONTAIN THE FALLOUT FROM SATURDAY'S UPRISING, RUSSIA CONTINUES ITS BRUTAL AERIAL ASSAULT ON UKRAINE'S CIVILIANS.

RUSSIAN MISSILES STRUCK A PIZZA RESTAURANT IN THE HEART OF KRAMATORSK IN THE EAST, KILLING AT LEAST 11 PEOPLE.

INCLUDING THESE 14-YEAR-OLD TWIN SISTERS CELEBRATING THE END OF THE SCHOOL YEAR AT WAR.

AND WHILE THE U.S. GOVERNMENT IS KEEPING ITS DISTANCE FROM THE THWARTED REBELLION IN RUSSIA, PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN SAYS PUTIN HAS ABSOLUTELY BEEN WEAKENED.

CORRESPONDENT BEN WEDEMAN IS ON THE GROUND THERE IN EASTERN UKRAINE, AND HE'S JOINING ME NOW.

BEN, THE SCENES THAT WE SAW AND FROM YOUR REPORTING ARE JUST HORRIBLE, AND BRINGS IT RIGHT BACK HOME.

WHAT -- WHAT IS HAPPENING THERE, YOU KNOW, NOW?

I KNOW YOU HAVE JUST LEFT THE ACTUAL SCENE.

WHAT'S GOING ON THERE?

>> THEY ARE STILL, CHRISTIANE, TRYING TO FIND SURVIVORS, OR MORE LIKELY BODIES, UNDER THE RUBBLE.

KEEP IN MIND, IT'S A MASSIVE CONCRETE SLAB, SORT OF FELL ON -- WHERE THE STRIKE TOOK PLACE, SO, IT'S A LOT OF WORK, THEY'VE BROUGHT IN HEAVY EQUIPMENT, BUT WHILE WE WERE THERE, WE DID SEE RESCUE WORKERS BRINGING OUT A BLACK BODY BAG, LOADING IT INTO A VAN, AND RIGHT THERE WERE FRIENDS AND FAMILY, SOBBING, WATCHING THIS HAPPEN.

AND THERE ARE MORE PEOPLE SIMPLY WAITING TO FIND OUT NEWS OF RELATIVES THEY HAVEN'T HEARD FROM.

WE SPOKE TO PEOPLE WHO WORKED IN THE RESTAURANT, AND THEY SAID THAT THERE'S STILL PEOPLE THAT ARE UNACCOUNTED FOR.

BY THE LOOKS OF IT, IT LOOKS LIKE IT HIT THE KITCHEN.

THAT'S WHY SO MANY OF THE RESTAURANT WORKERS WERE EITHER WOUNDED, KILLED, OR ARE STILL MISSING AT THE MOMENT.

SO, IT'S A HUGE AMOUNT OF WORK.

THEY'RE DOING WHAT THEY CAN.

BUT ALSO THE PROBLEM IS, EVERY ONCE IN AWHILE, THEIR WORK IS INTERRUPTED BY AIR RAID SIRENS.

LAST NIGHT, WHEN WE WERE ON THE SITE, EVERYONE WAS SUDDENLY RUSHED AWAY FROM THE SCENE OF THIS STRIKE, BECAUSE THE FEAR WAS THAT THERE WAS GOING TO BE A SO-CALLED DOUBLE TAP, WHERE THE RUSSIANS WILL STRIKE A LOCATION AND THEN WAIT UNTIL FIRST RESPONDERS COME, RESIDENTS COME TO LOOK, AND THEN STRIKE AGAIN.

SO IT'S A VERY DIFFICULT TASK FOR THIS CITY.

CHRISTIANE?

>> DO YOU KNOW THE PLACE?

I MEAN, WHAT CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT IT?

>> WELL, IT'S A RESTAURANT CALLED THE RIA.

SOME PEOPLE DESCRIBE IT AS A PIZZERIA, BUT THEY SERVE A LOT OF 0 OTHER THINGS.

WE WERE THERE, THE DAY BEFORE THE STRIKE.

WHAT WE SAW WAS VERY BUSY.

IT WAS FULL OF SOLDIERS, FULL OF CIVILIANS, THERE WERE CHILDREN, THERE WERE PEOPLE EVEN BROUGHT THEIR DOGS THERE IN THE OUTSIDE TERRACE.

IT WAS A VERY BUSY PLACE, VERY POPULAR.

WE UNDERSTAND THAT, YOU KNOW, I WAS HERE IN KRAMATORSK IN APRIL OF LAST YEAR, IN THE EARLY WEEKS OF THE WAR.

THE CITY WAS PRETTY MUCH A GHOST TOWN.

YOU COULD BARELY FIND ANYTHING OPEN, BUT AS THE SITUATION HAS STABILIZED PEOPLE HAVE RETURNED, AND, OF COURSE, THIS IS A CITY THAT IS AN IMPORTANT MILITARY HUB.

THE FRONT LINES ARE JUST A HALF HOUR DRIVE AWAY FROM HERE, SO, THERE ARE LOTS OF SOLDIERS.

THERE'S A LOT OF MILITARY SORT OF LOCATIONS AND ACTIVITIES IN AND AROUND THE CITY, BUT THAT AREA ITSELF IS REALLY THE HEART OF KRAMATORSK.

IN ADDITION TO THE RESTAURANT, THERE'S A JEWELRY STORE NEXT DOOR, THERE'S A HOTEL NEXT TO THAT, THERE'S A POST OFFICE NEARBY.

SO IT'S A RESIDENTIAL -- IT'S A CIVILIAN AREA.

THERE'S NO MILITARY BASES IN, OR ANYTHING MILITARY IN THAT PART OF TOWN EXCEPT THE SOLDIERS HAVING LUNCH.

>> AND FINALLY, DO YOU KNOW WHAT HIT IT?

AT FIRST, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY THE RUSSIANS HAVE SAID WE JUST HIT A MILITARY TARGET, BUT THAT'S WHAT THEY SAY ABOUT EVERYTHING, INCLUDING, YOU KNOW, THAT ORIGINAL TARGET IN KRAMATORSK, WHICH WAS THE TRAIN STATION, WHEN YOU WERE THERE, YOU KNOW, EARLIER IN THE WAR, BUT -- DO WE KNOW WHAT IT HIT AND WHY IT CAUSED SO MUCH DESTRUCTION?

>> WELL, WHEN WE ARRIVED, WE SAW FROM THE LEVEL OF THE DAMAGE THAT IT WAS CLEARLY SOMETHING VERY BIG.

NOW IN THE EVENING, PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY IN HIS NIGHTLY ADDRESS SAID IT WAS AN S-300, THAT'S A SURFACE TO AIR MISSILE THAT IS NOT VERY PRECISE AND DOESN'T CARRY A HUGE PAYLOAD.

SO, I -- WHEN I SAW THAT, I WASN'T CONVINCED, AND IT TURNS OUT, IT'S A MISSILE THAT IS A HYPERSONIC BALLISTIC MISSILE THAT, BECAUSE IT'S HYPERSONIC, IT'S VERY HARD FOR RADAR TO PICK UP, IT'S VERY HARD FOR AIR DEFENSES TO TAKE DOWN.

AND IT HAS A MUCH BIGGER PAYLOAD.

AND IT'S MUCH MORE PRECISE, WHICH ONE HAS TO WONDER, WAS THIS LOCATION SPECIFICALLY TARGETED?

NOW, UKRAINIAN INTELLIGENCE HAS ARRESTED MAN THEY SAY WAS CASING OUT THE RESTAURANT, HAD TAKEN VIDEO, AND SENT IT TO THE GRU, RUSSIAN INTELLIGENCE.

WE DON'T KNOW WHAT MORE INFORMATION THEY RECEIVED FROM HIM OR GOTTEN OUT OF HIM, BUT YES, THIS DOES LOOK LIKE IT IS PERHAPS A DELIBERATE CHOICE OF TARGET, CHRISTIANE.

>> BEN, THANK YOU SO MUCH, INDEED.

AND, OF COURSE, PUTIN AND THE RUSSIAN MILITARY LASHING OUT AFTER THAT THWARTED REBELLION OVER THE WEEKEND.

>>> IT IS NOT JUST GOVERNMENTS THAT ARE BACKING UKRAINE, THOUGH.

MAJOR CORPORATIONS LIKE MICROSOFT ARE ALSO PITCHING IN.

THE COMPANY REPORTS ITS THREAT INTELLIGENCE TEAMS ARE WORKING TO SUPPORT UKRAINE'S DEFENSE.

ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE MAY OPEN NEW FRONTS IN CYBER WARFARE, BUT IT COULD BRING CRITICAL SOCIAL BENEFITS, AND LIKE OTHER INFORMATION COMPANIES, MICROSOFT STANDS TO REAP MAJOR PROFITS FROM THE FAST-GROWING TECHNOLOGY.

THAT'S WHY THE COMPANY'S PRESIDENT AND VICE CHAIR SAYS CORPORATIONS NEED TO COME TOGETHER WITH GOVERNMENTS TO REGULATE A.I.

AND HE, BRAD SMITH, IS HERE AND JOINS ME NOW.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU.

>> YOU KNOW, WE JUST HAD THIS HORRENDOUS REPORT FROM UKRAINE, THIS HORRIBLE ATTACK AGAINST A CIVILIAN INFRASTRUCTURE, AND I JUST WONDERED, HOW ARE YOU HELPING THEM, HOW THE TECHNOLOGY HELPS, IN WHAT AREAS, IS IT IN DEFENSE, INTELLIGENCE, OTHER AREAS?

>> IT'S REALLY IN ALL OF THOSE THINGS AND IT HAS BEEN AN EXTRAORDINARY EFFORT BY, I'D SAY, THE ENTIRE TECH SECTOR, SINCE THE WAR BEGAN LAST FEBRUARY.

IT'S INVOLVED IN PART IN EVACUATING DATA SO WHEN CRUISE MISSILES DESTROYED UKRAINIAN GOVERNMENT DATA CENTERS, THEY COULD SUSTAIN THEIR OPERATIONS BY RELYING ON OUR DATA CENTERS IN OTHER COUNTRIES.

BUT EVEN MORE THAN THAT, IT IS A DAILY EXERCISE OFTENTIMES OF DETECTING NEW CYBER ATTACKS AND IN EFFECT DISRUPTING THEM,ER IF INTERFERING, INTERCEPTING THEM SO THEY CANNOT DAMAGE MILITARY OR CIVILIAN TARGETS.

>> I MEAN, HAVE YOU EVER DONE THAT BEFORE?

THAT'S HELPING A MILITARY EFFORT.

>> NOT LIKE THIS.

WE'VE BEEN FOCUSED ON CYBER SECURITY, BUT IT'S BEEN IN TIMES OF PEACE SINCE THIS WAR BEGAN, MICROSOFT HAS PROVIDED MORE THAN $500 MILLION OF TECHNOLOGY AND FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE TO UKRAINE.

I WOULD NOT HAVE IMAGINED THAT WE'D BE PUT IN THAT POSITION.

I THINK IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

AND WHAT IT SHOWS IS THAT IN THE WORLD TODAY, COMPANIES AND GOVERNMENTS REALLY NEED TO COME TOGETHER TO DEFEND THEIR SOCIETIES.

>> SO, PRIGOZHIN, THE PROTAGONIST IN THE UPRISING THAT DIDN'T GO ANYWHERE ON THE WEEKEND, HE WAS KIND OF FIRST KNOWN AS THE ORIGINAL, YOU KNOW, TROLL FARMER, THE ORIGINAL HACKER, THE ORIGINAL, YOU KNOW, TROUBLEMAKER IN THE CYBER SPACE.

HOW MUCH DAMAGE HAS RUSSIA DONE -- HOW MUCH CYBER WARFARE HAS IT BEEN ABLE TO WAGE IN UKRAINE AND WHOEVER MIGHT BE SUPPORTING IT?

>> I REALLY LOOK AT THINGS IN TWO WAYS.

FIRST, IF YOU LOOK AT MALICIOUS ATTACKS, TRYING TO DESTROY INFRASTRUCTURE, DELETE DATA ON COMPUTERS, ACTUALLY DESPITE FORMIDABLE EFFORTS BY THE RUSSIAN MILITARY, THE IMPACT HAS BEEN RELATIVELY MINIMAL.

AND THAT'S REALLY BECAUSE DEFENSIVE TECHNOLOGY HAS BEEN STRONGER THAN OFFENSIVE TECHNOLOGY.

I THINK WE HAVE TO REMEMBER, THOUGH, THAT THE RUSSIANS ENGAGE IN VERY SOPHISTICATED CYBER INFLUENCE OPERATIONS.

PUTTING OUT DISINFORMATION.

THEY'RE AMONG THE MOST CAPABLE GOVERNMENTS, UNFORTUNATELY, IN THE WORLD IN DOING THAT, AND THAT IS NOT CONFINED TO UKRAINE.

THEY FOCUS ON THEIR OWN PEOPLE, THEY FOCUS IT ON GERMANY AND WESTERN EUROPE, THEY FOCUS ON THE U.S. AND OTHER COUNTRIES.

>> HOW BAD IS A.I.

FOR ALL OF THIS?

>> THE INTERESTING THING IS THAT A.I.

WILL BE USED IN EFFECT BOTH OFFENSIVELY AND DEFENSIVELY.

OFFENSIVELY, COUNTRIES LIKE RUSSIA, THE GOVERNMENT WILL USE A.I.

TO GENERATE MORE CONTENT, IT WILL PROBABLY REDUCE THE COST OF CREATING CONTENT.

THEY MAY USE IT TO SORT OF TARGET WHO THEY'RE AIMING OR DIRECTING IT AT.

BUT WE WILL USE A.I.

ON THE DEFENSIVE SIDE, AS WELL.

AND I THINK IN SOME WAYS, A.I.

WILL FAVOR DEFENSE OVER OFFENSE, BECAUSE WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT, OUR GREAT STRENGTH IS DATA.

WE SEE ALL OF THIS DATA COMING INTO DATA CENTERS.

THE CHALLENGE IS TO FIND THE PATTERNS IN THE DATA TO SHOW US WHERE A NEW ATTACK IS TAKING PLACE.

A.I.

CAN DO THAT FASTER THAN HUMANS CAN.

SO AT LEAST RIGHT NOW, I'M OPTIMISTIC THAT A.I.

WILL FAVOR DEFENSE OVER OFFENSE WHEN IT COMES TO CYBER SECURITY, AND THAT IS GOOD FOR EVERYONE.

>> OKAY, SO, THAT'S GOOD NEWS, BUT YOU, OBVIOUSLY, ARE AWARE THAT THERE'S A HUGE AMOUNT OF, YOU KNOW, AROUND -- ABOUT WHAT A.I.

COULD DO TO US ALL, THE HUMAN RACE, I MEAN, THE FEARS ARE HUGE, TO THE EXTENT THAT THE PRESIDENT IS TALKING TO THE BIG BOSSES, YOU'RE ALL GOING TO TESTIFY, AND YOU'RE HERE.

>> RIGHT.

>> AND YOU'RE GOING TO EUROPE, RIGHT?

>> THAT'S RIGHT, EXACTLY.

>> ABOUT THE REGULATION PIECE.

SO, FIRST, WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE?

WHAT DO YOU EXPECT TO ACHIEVE HERE IN THE UK?

>> WELL, HERE IN THE UK, AND I WAS IN NORWAY ON MONDAY, THE NETHERLANDS ON TUESDAY, THE UK ON WEDNESDAY, THERE REALLY IS A CONVERSATION TAKING PLACE AROUND THE WORLD ABOUT WHAT TO DO ABOUT A.I.

HOW DO WE MAXIMIZE THE BENEFITS?

IT WILL HELP US DIAGNOSE AND CURE CANCERS, BUT THEN HOW DO WE REGULATE IT SO IT'S USED SAFELY?

AND I THINK THAT REALLY DOES REQUIRE THAT WE IN THE TECH SECTOR STEP UP, THAT WE PUT IN PLACE SAFETY PROTOCOLS AND SAFEGUARDS, GUARDRAILS, IF YOU WILL, AND IT WILL REQUIRE, I THINK, A NEW ERA OF LAW AND REGULATION.

AND THAT'S THE CONVERSATION THAT SOMEBODY LIKE ME IS HAVING AROUND THE WORLD.

>> AND NOW YOU'RE CONTINUING THAT TO THE EU, IS THAT BECAUSE THEY ARE COMING UP WITH THE A.I.

ACT, OR THE A.I.

PROTOCOLS OR SOMETHING?

HOW MUCH HOPE DO YOU HAVE FOR THAT AND WHAT WILL IT DO?

>> I AM OPTIMISTIC THAT WE'LL STRIKE A SENSIBLE BALANCE.

THE FIRST INSTANCE, I THINK IT'S WORTH REMEMBERING THAT WE BENEFIT AND REALLY TAKE FUR GRANTED EVERY DAY TECHNOLOGIES THAT COULD HAVE A DANGEROUS IMPACT.

ELECTRICITY TURNS ON THE LIGHTS, BUT IT CAN E ELECTROCUTE YOU, SO, WE HAVE A CIRCUIT BREAKER.

SO, IN THE SAME WAY, WE NEED TO BUILD SAFETY PROTOCOLS, SAFETY BREAKS, IF YOU WILL, ESPECIALLY IF A.I.

IS GOING TO BE USED TO CONTROL CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE, THE WATER SUPPLY, THE ELECTRICAL GRID.

SO, WHAT WE'RE FOCUSED ON IS INSIDE A COMPANY LIKE MICROSOFT IS HOW WE PUT IN A.I.

SAFETY GUARDRAILS, THE CONVERSATION WITH GOVERNMENTS IS IN EFFECT SHOULD YOU AS A COMPANY NEED TO GET A LICENSE IF A.I.

IS GOING TO BE USED IN A CERTAIN WAY?

AND THIS IS NOT -- AT THIS POINT, AT LEAST, A POLARIZED OR PARTISAN DEBATE, EVERYBODY'S SORT OF ROLLING UP THEIR SLEEVES AND LEARNING ABOUT A.I., AND FIGURING OUT HOW TO MANAGE IT.

>> SO, WHY DO YOU -- WHAT DO YOU ACCOUNT -- HOW DO YOU ACCOUNT FOR THAT?

THAT IT APPEARS THAT ALL DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE EQUATION ARE THINKING ALONG THE SAME LINES?

WHY?

I MEAN, SOCIAL MEDIA CAME AND, YOU KNOW, IT -- WE ALL THOUGHT IT WAS GOING TO BE GREAT, THE ARAB SPRING REVOLUTION, TWITTER DEMOCRACIES, AND INSTEAD, IT'S WORSENED A CONSIDERABLE PART OF OUR PUBLIC SPACE.

>> I THINK MAYBE THERE'S A LESSON IN WHAT YOU JUST SAID.

BECAUSE I ACTUALLY HAVE THAT SAME CONVERSATION.

IN SOME WAYS, WE LOOK BACK A DECADE AGO, AND WE WERE ALL IN HINDSIGHT TOO EUPHORIC.

WE THOUGHT SOCIAL MEDIA WOULD BE THE SAVIOR OF DEMOCRACY.

AND SO, YOU FAST FORWARD, NOW IT'S 2023, WE ALL SAY, LET'S APPROACH THIS NEW TECHNOLOGY WITH OUR EYES WIDE OPEN.

IT WILL DO AMAZING THINGS.

IT WILL IMPROVE PRODUCTIVITY, IT WILL ADVANCE ECONOMIC GROWTH, IT WILL BE ALE TOOL FOR TEACHERS AND STUDENTS, BUT IT HAS RISKS.

LET'S NOT PUT THE RISKS ASIDE.

LET'S NOT JUST SAY, LET COMPANIES DO WHATEVER THEY WANT.

LET'S HAVE LAW, LET'S HAVE REGULATION.

I THINK THAT IS THE RIGHT KIND OF WISER APPROACH TO TAKE.

>> LET ME AGAIN BE THE DEVIL'S ADVOCATE.

SAM ALTMAN WHO, I KNOW YOU'RE IN BUSINESS WITH, YOU HAVE A SHARED ENTERPRISE, OPENAI, ET CETERA, HE'S BEEN FRONT AND CENTER IN CONGRESS AND HE COMES ACROSS LIKE, YOU KNOW, THE KNIGHT IN SHINING ARMOR, BUT HE SAYS ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THE REGULATION AND STUFF, HE SAYS TO THE U.S. SENATE, I THINK IF THIS TECHNOLOGY GOES WRONG IT CAN GO QUITE WRONG, WE WANT TO BE VOCAL ABOUT THAT, WE WANT TO WORK WITH THE GOVERNMENT TO PREVENT THAT FROM HAPPENING.

BUT THEN HE SAYS THAT IT COULD CEASE -- HIS COMPANY COULD CEASE OPERATING IN THE EU IF IT CAN'T COMPLY WITH LEGISLATION.

IS HE SPEAKING OUT OF TEN DIFFERENT SIDES OF HIS MOUTH, TRYING TO HAVE CAKE AND EAT IT, TOO?

>> NO, I DON'T THINK SO.

OPENAI, THE COMPANY THAT SAM HEADS AND MICROSOFT WORKED VERY CLOSELY TOGETHER.

WE'VE BEEN PARTNERS, AND -- >> YOU WANT A LITTLE BIT OF REGULATION, BUT NOT TOO MUCH?

>> WELL, I THINK, YOU KNOW, IT'S SORT OF A GOOD THING TO THINK ABOUT.

WE DON'T WANT TO STIFLE INNOVATION, I THINK THAT WOULD ULTIMATELY PREVENT SOCIETY FROM REAPING THE BENEFITS THAT THIS HAS TO OFFER, SO, IT'S ABOUT GETTING THE BALANCE RIGHT.

AND IT'S A TIME WHEN THE TECHNOLOGY IS ADVANCING QUICKLY.

IT'S A TIME WHEN PEOPLE ARE SITTING DOWN TOGETHER AND NOT SURPRISINGLY, SOME DAYS IT IS EASIER TO SORT OUT AN ANSWER THAN OTHERS.

WHAT YOU DO SEE, WHETHER YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, SAM ALTMAN OR MICROSOFT, IS, ULTIMATELY, SOME CONVERGENCE.

YOU KNOW, AROUND A SET OF PRACTICAL STANDARDS.

AND I THINK, IN SOME WAYS, BENEFITING FROM NOT JUST A YEAR, BUT A CENTRAL RUIES WORTH OF EXPERIENCE.

WE ALL FLY ON AIRPLANES.

WE DON'T WANT THEM TO CRASH, BUT WE WANT TO GO FARTHER THAN WE OTHERWISE COULD.

WE HAVE GLOBAL, AS WELL AS NATIONAL SAFETY STANDARDS, SAFETY FEATURES, TESTING BEFORE A PLANE IS CERTIFIED TO FLY, CONSTANT MONITORING OF AIRCRAFT AFTER THEY'VE ENTERED SERVICE.

I THINK THAT POINTS TO THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

WE ALWAYS WANT BETTER PLANES.

WE ALWAYS WANT THEM TO BE SAFE.

WE SHOULD WANT THE SAME THING FROM A.I.

>> WE SHOULD, BUT YOU KNOW, AS THE USER, AND AS THE POTENTIAL VICTIM, WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT YOU'RE ALL SERIOUS ABOUT IT AND GOVERNMENTS ARE SERIOUS ABOUT IT.

>> I AGREE.

>> SO, LET ME PLAY FOR YOU, AND JUST WALK YOU THROUGH WHAT THE PRESIDENT OF THE U.S. IS DOING, AS YOU KNOW, LAST WEEK, HE WENT OVER THERE TO THE WEST COAST TO TALK TO ALL OF YOU, I GUESS, I'M NOT SURE WHAT HE SAID TO YOU, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, I WAS SPEAKING TO THE FORMER PRESIDENT, BARACK OBAMA, IN GREECE, AND HE WAS SPEAKING ABOUT THIS, BECAUSE HE, YOU KNOW, WORKS ON DEMOCRACY AND THAT MEANS EQUALITY AND, YOU KNOW, HELPING -- HELPING ALL THOSE WITH JOBS AND TRY TO FIGURE OUT HOW NOT TO HAVE THEIR JOBS TAKEN AWAY.

THIS IS WHAT HE SAID ABOUT THIS AND I'D LOVE YOU TO RESPOND.

>> THIS IS A POWERFUL TECHNOLOGY, AND IT'S COMING FAST.

AND IF IT KIND OF GOES INTO THE WILD THE WAY SOCIAL MEDIA DID, WITHOUT US THINKING THROUGH THE CONSEQUENCES, WE COULD HAVE BIGGER PROBLEMS WITH A.I.

WE WILL HAVE BIGGER PROBLEMS WITH A.I.

NATIONAL SECURITY PROBLEMS, JOB DISPLACEMENT PROBLEMS, MISINFORMATION PROBLEMS THAT UNDERMINE OUR DEMOCRACY.

AND SO, YES, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO REGULATE IT IN AN INTELLIGENT WAY.

IF HARNESSED CORRECTLY, YOU COULD HAVE A.I.

TEACHERS THAT MUCH MORE CHEAPLY ARE DELIVER ING A VERY GOOD EDUCATION TO PEOPLE IN REMOTE AREAS.

THAT'S A POWERFUL THING.

AND BY THE WAY, IF YOU HAVE VILLAGES WHERE GIRLS HAVE TROUBLE GETTING TO SCHOOL, BUT YOU CAN GET THEM A DEVICE AND THEY CAN LEARN ON THEIR OWN, THAT CAN BREAK DOWN BARRIERS, AS WELL.

SO, THAT'S THE UPSIDE.

THE DANGER IS THAT IF IT'S WEAPONIZED, IT CAN BE A VERY POWERFUL TOOL FOR MISCHIEF.

THE POTENTIAL FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE IN JOBS THAT CAN BE DONE REMOTELY, TO BE REPLACED ENTIRELY BY MACHINES, I THINK THAT IS SOMETHING THAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN FAIRLY QUICKLY.

>> SO, AS USUAL, HE IS VERY CONSIDERED ABOUT THIS, SO LET'S JUST TALK ABOUT JOBS.

CAN IT PUT LEGIONS OF PEOPLE OUT OF WORK?

>> I DON'T KNOW THAT I WOULD SAY LEGIONS, BUT THERE ARE SOME JOBS THAT WILL LIKELY BE AUTOMATED.

A FEW YEARS AGO, WE WROTE A BOOK ABOUT THIS, AND WHEN ASKED TO PREDICT WHAT JOB WOULD BE IMPACT ED FIRST, WE SAID TAKING ORDERS AT A FAST FOOD RESTAURANT, BECAUSE ALL YOU FUNDAMENTALLY DO IS YOU LISTEN TO SOMEONE SPEAK AND YOU ENTER IN A KEY PAD WHAT THEY'RE ASKING FOR, AND WITH A.I., A COMPUTER CAN DO THAT WELL.

BUT THERE'S NEW JOBS THAT ARE BEING CREATED ALREADY, AND THERE'S ALWAYS THAT BALANCE.

WHENEVER THERE IS A MAJOR NEW ERA OF TECHNOLOGY.

THERE ARE JOBS IN 2023 THAT LITERALLY DID NOT EXIST A YEAR AGO.

THEY'RE CALLED PROMPT ENGINEERS.

THEY'RE BASICALLY PEOPLE WHO LEARN HOW TO USE A.I.

SYSTEMS AND IN EFFECT, HOW TO PROGRAM THEM, BUT WITH FAR LESS INTENSIVE REQUIREMENTS THAN IT TAKES, SAY, TO WRITE COMPUTER CODE.

SO, IN SOME WAYS, SOME JOBS WILL GO AWAY, NEW JOBS WILL BE CREATED.

WHAT WE REALLY NEED TO DO IS GIVE PEOPLE THE SKILLS SO THEY CAN TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIS, AND FRANKLY, FOR ALL OF US, YOU, ME, EVERYONE, OUR JOBS WILL CHANGE.

WE WILL BE USING A.I.

JUST LIKE 30 YEARS AGO, WE FIRST STARTED TO USE PCs IN MORE OFFICES.

AND WHAT IT MEANT IS, YOU LEARN NEW SKILLS SO THAT YOU CAN BENEFIT FROM THE TECHNOLOGY.

THAT'S THE BEST WAY TO AVOID BEING REPLACED.

>> BEFORE I ASK YOU -- I WILL ASK YOU, HOW DO YOU USE A.I.

IN YOUR DAILY LIFE?

>> I USE IT FOR RESEARCH.

YOU KNOW, THERE'S THE MICROSOFT SEARCH SERVICE, BING, IT RELIES ON GPT 4 FROM OPENAI.

I'M ABLE TO ASK IT QUESTIONS, IT GIVES ME ANSWERS, IT HAS FOOTNOTES TO SOURCES.

WHAT I FUNDAMENTALLY FIND, AND I THINK YOU'LL APPRECIATE THIS AS A JOURNALIST, WHEN YOU CAN GET AN ANSWER TO THE FIRST QUESTION MORE QUICKLY, YOU ASK THE NEXT QUESTION.

AND SO MUCH IN LIFE ACTUALLY TURNS OUT, I THINK, ON BEING ABLE TO ASK MORE QUESTIONS.

THAT'S WHAT I USE IT FOR.

>> WHAT IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHO YOU'RE TALKING TO OR WHO'S TALKING TO YOU?

WE'VE HEARD SO MUCH ABOUT, YOU KNOW, FAKES, DEEP FAKES AND NOW WE'RE IN ANOTHER REALM OF FAKES WHERE MY VOICEMITATED.

I HAVE NO RIGHTS AGAINST THIS, UNLESS YOU CAN TELL ME HOW WE HAVE THESE RIGHTS.

MY DAUGHTER, MY SON CALLS, I NEED SOME MONEY -- HOW DO WE FIGURE THIS OUT?

>> I THINK THAT'S AN EXCELLENT EXAMPLE OF THE KIND OF PROBLEM WE NEED TO SOLVE AND WHERE WE NEED PROTECTION AGAINST THE ABUSE OF THIS TECHNOLOGY.

I THINK WE WILL SEE EVEN JUST IN THE COMING WEEKS AND MONTHS, NEW APPROACHES, AGREEMENTS WITH GOVERNMENTS AND TECH COMPANIES WHERE, FOR EXAMPLE, THEY'LL SAY, IF YOU'RE USING A.I.

TO SIN THEE SIZE SOMEONE'S VOICE, OR A VISUAL IMAGE, THAT WHAT YOU NEED TO DO IS WATER MARK IT, YOU NEED TO MAKE IT CLEAR THAT THIS IS PRODUCED BY A.I., YOU NEED TO TELL SOMEBODY, IF THEY'RE ANSWERING THE PHONE AND THERE'S A COMPUTER ON THE OTHER END, THAT THEY'RE IDENTIFYING THEMSELVES AS A COMPUTER RATHER THAN A HUMAN BEING.

AND I THINK YOU'LL SEE LAWS EVOLVE, SO THAT IF PEOPLE THEN VIOLATE THAT NORM, THEY CAN BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE.

WE'LL STILL HAVE CRIMINALS, I MEAN, PEOPLE DO BAD THINGS.

BUT BETWEEN TECHNOLOGY CONTROLS, RESPONSIBLE ACTION, NEW LAWS AND EFFORTS BY GOVERNMENTS, THAT'S OUR BEST BET, I THINK, TO ADDRESS THAT.

>> YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT GOVERNMENTS WHO BELIEVE IN THE INTERNATIONAL SYSTEM AND THE RULE OF LAW AND WHO SIGN UP FOR VARIOUS, YOU KNOW, RULES OF THE ROAD.

BUT THERE ARE OTHERS THAT WE'RE DEALING WITH RIGHT NOW, RUSSIA, MANY, MANY, MANY OTHERS, WHO DON'T.

AND WHO HAVE ALREADY ASSAULTED OUR DEMOCRATIC SYSTEMS AND EVERYTHING ELSE.

USING THIS IN A VERY WILY WAY, AND THE PRECURSORS, AS WELL.

SO, LET'S SAY HALF THE WORLD IS GOING TO BEHALF AND THE OTHER HALF ISN'T, WHAT ARE THE CONSEQUENCES?

>> I THINK YOU START WITH BUILDING AN ALLIANCE OF LIKE-MINDED ALLIES.

AND THE BEST WAY TO GET IMPORTANT THINGS DONE IS TO BRING PEOPLE TOGETHER WHO WANT TO GET THEM DONE.

AND THAT'S WHAT WE'VE DONE.

FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE TRAGEDY, THE MASSACRE IN CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND, A MASS SHOOTING LIVE STREAMED ON THE INTERNET, THE THEN PRIME MINISTER OF NEW ZEALAND BROUGHT TOGETHER TECH COMPANIES, WE WERE DEFINITELY ONE -- WE WERE THE FIRST, AND SAID, LET'S PUT IN PLACE NEW RULES SO THAT CANNOT HAPPEN AGAIN.

IN THE SAME WAY, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THESE THREATS OF INFLUENCE OPERATIONS BEING WAGED BY A COUNTRY, A GOVERNMENT LIKE RUSSIA, LET'S BRING COMPANIES, CIVIL SOCIETY, NGOs, GOVERNMENTS TOGETHER, AND LET'S PUT IN PLACE THE RULES AND THE TECHNOLOGY MEASURES THAT WILL BE NEEDED TO PROTECT THE PUBLIC.

>> WHY DO YOU THINK THERE ARE CERTAIN, YOU KNOW, REALLY IMPORTANT TECH, YOU KNOW, INVEIGH INNOVATORS, GEOFFREY HINTON, HE RESIGNED IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO SPEAK MORE FREELY, IAN HOGARTH, WELL-KNOWN A.I.

ENTREPRENEUR, ON STRATEGY NOW, HE'S WORKING ON.

HE SAYS GOD-LIKE A.I.

COULD BE A FORCE BEYOND OUR CONTROL OUR UNDERSTANDING, AND ONE THAT COULD USHER IN THE DESTRUCTION OF THE HUMAN RACE.

>> I THINK THE WORLD IS FULL OF THOUGHTFUL PEOPLE WITH A WIDE RANGE OF VIEWS.

I DON'T THINK IT'S A BAD THING TO IMAGINE WHAT IS THE WORST THING THAT COULD GO WRONG.

THAT'S THE BEST WAY TO PREVENT IT FROM HAPPENING.

BUT LOOK, 150 YEARS AGO, IT WOULD LOOK LIKE AN ACT OF GOD TO HARNESS THE POWER OF ELECTRICITY.

YOU WOULD SAY, MY GOODNESS, PEOPLE CAN BE ELECTROCUTED.

AND WHEN ELECTRICITY WAS FIRST INSTALLED IN OUR CITIES, YOU HAD TO ENSURE THAT IT WAS UNDER HUMAN CONTROL.

THIS TECHNOLOGY IS DIFFERENT, IT FEELS LIKE A DIFFERENT ERA, IT'S A NEW CENTURY, BUT FUNDAMENTALLY, WE'VE DONE THIS AS A SPECIES MANY TIMES BEFORE.

WE TOOK TO THE AIR, WE HARNESSED THE POWER OF ELECTRICITY, YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THE PROBLEM IN THE EYE AND FIGURE OUT HOW YOU KEEP IT UNDER CONTROL.

>> SO, YOU'RE BEING VERY FRANK, AND PRESIDENT OBAMA LISTED QUITE A LOT OF IMPORTANT THINGS.

YOU ALSO SAID IN THE MEDICINE FIELD, IT COULD DO AMAZING THINGS.

BUT I GUESS THE LAST QUESTION IS, WILL IT BE UNDER HUMAN CONTROL?

IS IT GUARANTEED TO BE UNDER HUMAN CONTROL?

WE WERE TOLD THESE HUGE MASSIVE COMPUTERS CAN JUST DO WHAT THEY DO AUTOMATICALLY.

>> I BELIEVE WE HAVE THE CAPABILITY TO ENSURE THAT IT STAYS UNDER HUMAN CONTROL.

AND THAT IS INCUMBENT UPON THE COMPANIES THAT ARE CREATING THESE MORE POWERFUL MODELS, BUT FRANKLY, IT ALSO IS INCUMBENT ON THE COMPANIES LIKE MICROSOFT THAT'S OPERATING AT MULTIPLE LEVELS, TO BUILD THE DATA CENTERS WHERE THESE A.I.

SYSTEMS WILL RUN.

WE SHOULD HAVE MULTIPLE CONTROLS, MULTIPLE SAFETY BREAKS, AND FRANKLY, STRONG REGULATIONS AND RULES TO ENSURE THAT THIS TECHNOLOGY ALWAYS REMAINS UNDER HUMAN CONTROL.

>> AND JUST FINALLY, DO YOU FEEL THAT YOU'RE SO COMMITTED TO THIS, AND SO AWARE OF THIS, BECAUSE OF WHAT WENT WRONG WITH SOCIAL MEDIA?

BECAUSE OF ALL THE GOOD INTENTIONS THAT JUST WENT OFF THE RAILS?

>> I'D LIKE TO SAY THAT WE WOULD BE THOUGHTFUL ENOUGH TO IDENTIFY THIS EVEN IF THERE HAD NOT BEEN THESE ISSUES SAY A DECADE AGO, BUT WE'RE ALL OLDER AND WISER.

THAT'S A GOOD THING.

LET'S LEARN FROM ALL OF OUR EXPERIENCES AND LET'S HEED THE CONCERNS.

LET'S REAP THE BENEFITS.

THAT'S THE BALANCE WE SHOULD STRIKE.

>> BRAD SMITH, THANK YOU.

>>> NOW, FOR THE PEOPLE OF GEORGIA, RUSSIA'S WAR IN UKRAINE LOOKS ALL TOO FAMILIAR.

IN AUGUST 2008, RUSSIA INVADED GEORGIA, SEIZED CONTROL OF TWO PROVINCES THERE, AND THEN ILLEGALLY RECOGNIZED THEIR INDEPENDENCE.

IT WAS EUROPE'S FIRST 21st CENTURY WAR.

CRITICS SAY A MUTED REACTION BY WESTERN POWERS MAY HAVE EGGED ON PUTIN'S AGGRESSIVE EXPANSIONISM, INCLUDING, OF COURSE, NOW IN UKRAINE.

NOW, GEORGIA, MUCH LIKE UKRAINE, OR EVEN MOLDOVA, MUST NAVIGATE VERY ROCKY SHORELINES, SEEKING ENTRY TO WESTERN INSTITUTIONS LIKE THE EU OR NATO, WHILE ALSO TRYING NOT TO PROVOKE THE RUSSIAN BEAR ON THEIR DOORSTEP.

THE GEORGIAN PRESIDENT JOINS ME NOW FROM THE CAPITAL.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

CAN I FIRST START BY ASKING YOU, JUST TO GIVE ME YOUR ANALYSIS OF WHAT YOU MUST HAVE BEEN WATCHING VERY CLOSELY ON YOUR BORDER, WHAT HAPPENED IN RUSSIA OVER THE WEEKEND?

HOW MUCH -- HOW MUCH OF A SURPRISE WAS IT TO YOU, AND HOW MUCH OF A THREAT DO YOU THINK IT REALLY WAS TO PUTIN?

>> I THINK WE WERE TOTAL SURPRISE.

TOTAL SURPRISE TO SEE THAT FORM OF A REBELLION AGAINST PUTIN'S REGIME, WHICH CERTAINLY HAS BEEN WEAKENED BY THIS WAR, BUT NOT TO THAT POINT.

TOTAL SURPRISE TO SEE HOW EASILY ONE CAN CROSS THE BORDER AND GET INTO ROSTOV FIRST AND THEN INTO OTHER CITIES AND CLOSE TO MOSCOW.

SURPRISED TO SEE THAT THIS REBELLION ENDS AS QUICKLY AS IT STARTED.

WITHOUT A DIRECT REPRESSION, WHICH IS TOTALLY UNORDINARY FOR THE RUSSIAN TRADITION.

IT'S VERY BIZARRE.

EVEN THAT PRIGOZHIN CAN TRUST PUTIN WHEN HE ENSURES HIM THAT HE WILL HAVE SECURITY GUARANTEES.

THAT HAS NEVER EXISTED IN RUSSIAN HISTORY.

WHEN YOU ARE EITHER REBEL OR EVEN WAR PRISONER, IT'S NEVER FORGIVEN.

SO, WHAT IS HAPPENING?

IT'S A REALLY HAPPENING IN RUSSIA TODAY, AND THEN HOW CAN YOU TRUST LUKASHENKO TO ENSURE THE SECURITY GUARANTEES, WHEN LUKASHENKO HAS A VERY HARD TIME TO PROTECT ITS OWN VERY RELATIVE, BUT ITS OWN INDEPENDENCE TOWARDS THE RUSSIAN REQUESTS THAT ARE MORE AND MORE COMING TO HIM, INCLUDING THE LATEST WITH THE NUCLEAR WARHEADS THAT ARE ON HIS TERRITORY.

SO, ALL OF THAT DOES NOT LOOK AT ALL LIKE TRADITIONAL RUSSIA.

AND I THINK THAT WE ARE IN THIS NEW PHASE OF WHAT HAS BEEN HAPPENING SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE WAR THAT RUSSIA HAS WAGED AGAINST UKRAINE, WHERE RUSSIA REALLY HAS SEEN ALL ITS GAME PLANS DEFEATED ONE AFTER THE ANOTHER.

THAT IS NOT YET THE FINAL MILITARY DEFEAT, BUT EVERYTHING THAT PUTIN HAS TRIED TO DO HAS NOT WORKED OR HAS PROVOKED A TOTALLY UNEXPECTED REACTION.

>> OKAY.

>> UNITED EUROPE, UNITED NATO, STRONGER NATO, EU THAT IS AGAIN TALKING ABOUT ENLARGEMENT, THAT LOOKED LIKE SUBJECT THAT NOBODY WANTED TO COME BACK TO, SO ALL THE FOR PUTIN NEGATIVE RESULTS FROM THIS DIFFERENT -- RUSSIAN ARMY AND OF COURSE PRIGOZHIN LAST ACT OF THE THEATER IS ADDING TO IT.

RUSSIAN ARMY THAT IS COMPLETELY HUMILIATED.

THE GENERALS, I CAN IMAGINE, THE RUSSIAN TRADITIONAL ARMY THAT SINCE THE SECOND WORLD WAR WAS CONSIDERED AS ONE OF THE MAJOR ARMIES IN THE WORLD, AND IN EUROPE, CERTAINLY, NOW HAS TO COUNT IN THE DONETSK ON PRIGOZHIN.

>> OKAY, LET ME JUST INTERRUPT YOU THERE, BECAUSE THAT IS A REALLY INTERESTING AND VALUABLE ANALYSIS.

SO, IF ALL OF THIS IS THE CASE, DO YOU, IN GEORGIA, FEEL LESS THREATENED OR MORE THREATENED?

AS WE KNOW, AND WE'VE BEEN WATCHING, SO MANY, TENS IF NOT HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF ANTI-WAR RUSSIANS HAVE BEEN FLEEING TO GEORGIA AND THROUGH GEORGIA, BUT YOU HAD YOUR OWN INVASION IN 2008.

AND YOU STILL, I THINK, ARE CONCERNED ABOUT PEW TON'S INTENTIONS.

HOW DO YOU FEEL TODAY ABOUT THAT?

>> OF COURSE, I MEAN, ONE CANNOT NOT BE CONCERNED.

ESPECIALLY WHEN REGIME IS ENTERING AN END PERIOD AND CLEARLY PUTIN IS NOT MASTERING EVERYTHING TODAY.

AND CERTAINLY NOT MASTERING THE WAR IN UKRAINE.

YOU CAN ALWAYS BE CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT CAN BE THE ERRATIC DECISIONS THAT CAN BE TAKEN.

IN OUR CASE, AT THIS STAGE, I DO NOT THINK THAT THERE IS A MILITARY STRESS.

FIRST OF ALL, BECAUSE WE HAVE A MILITARY OCCUPATION THAT IS ONGOING SINCE 2008, AND EARLIER, UNDER DIFFERENT FORM, SINCE 1991.

SO, TWO REGIONS ARE OCCUPIED WITH MILITARY BASES OF RUSSIA.

SO, TO SAY THAT WE ARE FEARING A MILITARY OCCUPATION WOULD NOT MEAN MUCH.

BUT I THINK THAT WHAT IS HAPPENING, AND WHAT COULD HAPPEN EVEN MORE, IS THAT RUSSIA IS TESTING TODAY THE RESOLVE, AND TESTING WHAT I CALL SECOND FRONT OF SOFT POWER, WHICH IS PROPAGANDA, WHICH IS THROUGH THE RUSSIANS THAT HAVE COME TO TO BE CONTROLLED, WE CANNOT JUST LET WHATEVER AMOUNT OF RUSSIANS COME TO THE TERRITORY OF GEORGIA WITHOUT KNOWING WHO THEY ARE.

VAST MAJORITY, AS YOU MENTIONED, ARE PEOPLE THAT ARE FLEEING TODAY'S RUSSIA, SO, NOT REALLY -- POPULATION, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, WE KNOW THE THREATS THAT ARE USED BY RUSSIA, SAYING THAT RUSSIAN-SPEAKING PEOPLE, THEY ARE NOT PROTECTED CORRECTLY, THAT CAN BE SUBJECT AND REASON FOR SUPPORT AND INTERVENTION BY RUSSIA.

SO, ALL OF THAT IS THIS VERY GRAY ZONE THAT CAN BE USED BY RUSSIA.

>> OKAY.

>> I DON'T THINK HAS THE RESOURCES OR THE WISH TO TEST ANOTHER FRONT TO GET TOWARDS THE WEST IN GEORGIA, BUT THERE CAN BE TESTING SOFT POWER POLICY, PROPAGANDA, WHICH AFTER ALL, IS THE USUAL INSTRUMENT OF RUSSIA FOR SO MANY YEARS.

>> MADAME PRESIDENT, THIS STARTED FOR YOUR COUNTRY, JUST LIKE UKRAINE, PRESIDENT BUSH AGREED TO INVITE THEM TO START THE NATO PROCESS.

WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE REALISTIC FUTURE FOR YOUR COUNTRY, TO KEEP YOURSELF SECURE AND INDEPENDENT?

DO YOU THINK YOU HAVE ANY CHANCE OF GETTING INTO NATO OR THE EU, AS WE SPEAK, RIGHT NOW?

>> I THINK THAT WE HAVE A GREAT CHANCE TO GET INTO THE EU.

AND WE KNOW THAT THE ROADS TO EU AND NATO ARE VERY PARALLEL, AND GEORGIA HAS BEEN VERY ACTIVE IN IT RELATIONS WITH NATO, WAS PART OF NATO MISSIONS, VERY ACTIVELY IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN.

HAS NATO EXERCISES ALL OVER THESE YEARS, DESPITE THE FACT THAT OCCUPIED TERRITORIES.

OUR CONNECTION TO NATO IS VERY CLOSE.

TODAY, THE EU PATH SEEMS CLOSER, BECAUSE UKRAINE HAS, IN FACT, ACCELERATED FOR OTHERS, PROBABLY THE BALKANS, THAT'S ACCELERATED TOWARDS EUROPEAN ACCELERATION.

IN TERMS OF NATO, IT'S PROBABLY MORE WILL BE UKRAINE, WE ALL KNOW THAT, AND IT WILL BE SECURITY GUARANTEES FOR UKRAINE, OF WHAT TYPE, I DON'T KNOW.

AND THAT'S NORMAL, THAT IS WHAT UKRAINE DESERVES TODAY.

SO, THERE IS NO ANY FORM OF COMPETITION AND NO ADVANCEMENT OF UKRAINE WILL BENEFIT GEORGIA.

BUT EU IS A VERY -- AT A TURNING POINT.

GEORGIA NEEDS TO GET THE CANDIDATE STATUS AT THE END OF THE YEAR.

WE HAVE BEEN GIVEN THE PERSPECTIVE, WHICH FOR GEORGIA WAS VERY IMPORTANT, BECAUSE THAT MEANT THAT GEOGRAPHY IS NO LONGER AN ARGUMENT TO BE OPPOSED TO GEORGIA, WHICH IT WAS FOR MANY YEARS.

THE NEXT STAGE IS TO GET THE CANDIDATE STATUS, AND IN THIS SOFT WAR THAT WE HAVE WITH RUSSIA, OF SOFT POLICY, SOFT POWER, I THINK THE EU CANNOT AFFORD, AND IT'S A STRATEGIC DECISION, TO LOSE GEORGIA, TO HAVE THE GEORGIAN POPULATION DISAPPOINTED AGAIN, AND TO GIVE IN THAT SENSE AN EASY SENSE.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THAT.

REALLY INTERESTING.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> NOW, WE TURN TO SOME MUSIC HISTORY.

LEGENDARY SINGER GRAHAM NASH HAS RETURNED TO THE STUDIO ONCE PART OF THE WOODSTOCK ERA SUPER GROUP CROSBY, STILLS, NASH, AND YOUNG, HE HELPED DEFINE A GENERATION WITH HITS LIKE "OUR HOUSE."

♪ OUR HOUSE ♪ ♪ IS A VERY VERY VERY FINE HOUSE ♪ ♪ WITH TWO CATS IN THE YARD ♪ ♪ LIFE USED TO BE SO HARD ♪ ♪ NOW EVERYTHING IS EASY ♪ ♪ BECAUSE OF YOU ♪ >> NOW IS HIS FIRST ALBUM IN SEVEN YEARS, AND WALTER ISAACSON REFLECTS ON AN OUTSTANDING CAREER.

>> GRAHAM NASH, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> YOU'RE VERY WELCOME.

HOW ARE YOU DOING TODAY?

>> FINE, THANKS.

>> I WAS LISTENING TO YOUR NEW ALBUM LAST NIGHT, AND YOU SAID IT'S YOUR MOST PERSONAL ALBUM.

WHY IS IT SO PERSONAL?

>> I'M WEARING MY HEART ON BOTH SLEEVES.

I STARTED THE ALBUM WITH THE SENTENCE THAT I USED TO THINK THAT I WOULD NEVER LOVE AGAIN.

AND WHEN I REALLY REALIZED THAT I WAS COMING TO THE END OF MY LIFE AND INDEED I MIGHT NOT EVER LOVE AGAIN, AND THEN I MET AMY GRANTHAM.

AMY GRANTHAM IS A WONDERFUL WOMAN.

WE HAVE BEEN TOGETHER FOR NINE YEARS.

WE'VE BEEN MARRIED FOR FOUR YEARS.

AND I LOVE HER DEARLY.

AND I WISH I WOULD HAVE MET HER MANY YEARS AGO.

>> WELL, YOU'VE DONE A LOT OF LOVE SONGS IN YOUR CAREER, IT'S GREAT TO HAVE THIS ONE BE A LOVE SONG.

IT IS ALSO POLITICAL, THOUGH, BECAUSE YOU'VE DONE POLITICS THROUGHOUT YOUR CAREER.

THERE'S A REAL POLITICAL EDGE TO THIS ALBUM.

DESCRIBE WHY YOU DID THAT.

>> WHEN I SEE SOMETHING THAT I HAVE TO SPEAK ABOUT, I HAVE TO INTENSIFY MY RESEARCH AND MAKE SURE THAT EVERY SINGLE WORD THAT I SAY IS WHAT I MEAN.

THERE ARE TWO VERY POLITICAL SONGS ON THIS RECORD.

ONE OF THEM IS "GOLDEN IDOL," WHICH IS A SONG I WROTE WHEN I SAW AN INSTAGRAM IMAGE OF DONALD TRUMP IN SOLID GOLD.

♪ THEY'RE TRYING TO REWRITE ♪ ♪ RECENT HISTORY ♪ >> AND I REALIZE THAT THERE ARE MANY GOLDEN IDOLS IN THIS COUNTRY.

OUR SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE, THE NEW SPEAKER, KEVIN McCARTHY, MITCH McCONNELL, PEOPLE LIKE TED CRUZ.

THERE ARE MANY GOLDEN IDOLS IN THIS COUNTRY THAT NEED TO BE ADDRESSED.

>> CROSBY, STILLS, NASH, AND YOUNG, MORE THAN 50 YEARS AGO, IT BECAME THE SOUNDTRACK OF POLITICS IN THE UNITED STATES.

OF THE PROTEST MOVEMENT IN THE UNITED STATES.

♪ LOVE THE ONE YOU'RE WITH ♪ ♪ LOVE THE ONE YOU'RE WITH ♪ ♪ LOVE THE ONE YOU'RE WITH ♪ ♪ LOVE THE ONE YOU'RE WITH ♪ >> TELL ME HOW THINGS HAVE CHANGED IN THOSE 50 YEARS, THE POLITICS AND PROTESTS.

>> WE THOUGHT THAT RICHARD NIXON WAS CRAZY.

BUT DONALD TRUMP IS WAY CRAZIER THAN RICHARD NIXON WOULD EVER BE.

I HAVE SEEN THE RISE OF THE RIGHT WING IN THIS COUNTRY, AND THE EXTREMISTS, I HAVE SEEN THE RISE OF AUTOCRATS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD, WHICH IS VERY DISTURBING.

IN A WAY, WHEN I STUDY HISTORY AND I REALIZE THAT EMPIRES ARE CREATED AND EMPIRES FALL, AND MAYBE, JUST MAYBE, THE AMERICAN EMPIRE IS SPIRALING DOWNWARDS AND IT'S VERY DISTURBING.

>> YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH JOANIE MITCHELL WAS TUMULTUOUS.

IT WAS THE STUFF OF SONG, IN FACT, "OUR HOUSE" IS A SONG YOU WROTE ABOUT IT.

I WAS JUST WATCHING HER, JUST RECENTLY, JUST A FEW DAYS AGO, AT THE GORGE, IN THIS COMEBACK CONCERT.

TELL ME ABOUT YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH HER, AND DID YOU WATCH THAT CONVERT, AND WHAT ARE YOU THINKING?

>> I DID WATCH THE CONCERT.

I'M VERY PLEASED THAT SHE'S STILL ALIVE.

I HAVE BEEN HER FRIEND SINCE -- SINCE WE PARTED AS A COUPLE, FOR ALL THESE YEARS.

I HAVE SENT FLOWERS ON HER BIRTHDAY EVERY SINGLE YEAR SINCE WE PARTED.

I SAW THE SHOW.

WE NEARLY LOST HER.

I MEAN, SHE WAS IN A COMA FOR THREE DAYS ON HER KITCHEN FLOOR BEFORE ANYBODY FOUND HER.

I'M GLAD THAT SHE'S ALIVE.

AND I'M SO GLAD THAT SHE IS NOW MAKING MUSIC.

THE LAST TIME I SAW JOAN, WHICH WAS AT THE GERSHWIN PRIZE THAT SHE RECEIVED RECENTLY IN WASHINGTON, D.C., AND I ASKED HER, I SAID, JOAN, ANYTHING COMING?

ANY IDEAS FOR NEW SONGS?

ANY IDEAS FOR A NEW PAINTING?

AND SHE LOOKED AT ME AND SHE SAID, NO.

NOT YET.

AND I LOVED "NOT YET," BECAUSE I KNOW THAT SHE HAS BEEN THINKING ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED TO HER.

SHE HAS BEEN THINKING ABOUT HER MUSIC.

AND I THINK THAT AT THE END OF THE GERSHWIN PRIZE AWARD SHOW, I THINK THAT SHE REALLY REALIZED HOW MUCH SHE WAS LOVED WORLDWIDE.

FOR MANY YEARS, I -- JOAN DID NOT THINK THAT SHE WAS APPRECIATED ENOUGH.

SHE DIDN'T THINK THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE UNDERSTOOD WHAT SHE WAS DOING.

BUT AT THE END OF THAT CONCERT, I THINK SHE REALLY UNDERSTOOD HOW MUCH SHE IS LOVED.

>> DO YOU THINK YOU MIGHT HAVE A PLAY WITH HER AGAIN?

>> I'LL NEVER SAY NO.

>> YEAH.

YOU WROTE IN YOUR AUTOBIOGRAPHY THAT SHE WAS THE WHOLE PACKAGE.

SHE HAD AN ELUSIVE QUALITY THAT SEEMED LIT FROM WITHIN.

TELL ME HOW THAT RELATIONSHIP STARTED.

IT WAS, LIKE, MORE THAN 50 YEARS AGO, RIGHT?

>> YES.

1967, ACTUALLY.

THE HOLLIES WERE PLAYING A SHOW IN OTTAWA, IN CANADA, AND AFTER THE SHOW, THERE WAS A SMALL PARTY THROWN BY THE PROMOTER.

SO, WE'RE ALL STANDING THERE WITH A PLASTIC GLASS OF CHEAP WINE, WAITING FOR THE PROMOTERS TO COME, YOU KNOW, AFTER THE SHOW.

AND OUR MANAGER, ROBIN BRITON, KEPT TALKING IN MY EAR, AND I SAID, ROBIN, PLEASE, STOP TALKING TO ME, I'M LOOKING AT THIS BEAUTIFUL WOMAN ACROSS THE HALL.

HE SAID, WELL, IF YOU'D ONLY LISTEN, THAT'S JONI MITCHELL, AND SHE WANTS TO MEET YOU.

AND SHE SAID HER FRIEND DAVID CROSBY SAID THAT IF I EVER WAS AROUND THE SAME TIME, THAT WE SHOULD TALK.

AND SO, I WENT OVER TO JONI, SHE HAD ON A PALE BLUE SILK DRESS, AND SHE HAD WHAT I THOUGHT WAS A BIBLE IN HER LAP, BUT IT WAS ACTUALLY A MUSIC BOX.

AND IT HAD ONE NOTE THAT WAS NOT RIGHT.

IT HAD GONE WRONG IN THE 50 OR 60 YEARS THAT IT EXISTED.

AND SO WE WERE LAUGHING ABOUT IT, AND WE BECAME GOOD FRIENDS.

AND SHE INVITED ME TO A HOTEL ROOM, WE WERE STAYING IN THE PLAYED ME PROBABLY 18 OF THE MOST BEAUTIFUL SONGS I HAD EVER HEARD IN MY LIFE.

AND I KNEW THAT SHE WAS THE FULL PACKAGE.

NOT ONLY WAS SHE A GREAT SONGWRITER, NOT ONLY WAS SHE AN INTERESTING MUSICIAN, AND NOT ONLY WAS SHE AN INTERESTING PAINTER, BUT SHE WAS THE MOST BEAUTIFUL WOMAN I'D EVER SEEN IN MY LIFE AT THAT TIME.

AND I'VE ALWAYS BEEN FRIENDS WITH JONI, AND I WILL TO THE DAY I DIE.

>> YOU MENTIONED DAVID CROSBY, OF COURSE, YOUR FORMER BANDMATE.

YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM HAS BEEN -- HAD BEEN RATHER TUMULTUOUS.

HE DIED, YOU KNOW, WITHIN THE PAST YEAR.

TELL ME ABOUT YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM AND DID YOU EVER RECONCILE AND WHAT THOUGHTS YOU HAVE ON THAT?

>> CROSBY WAS MY BEST FRIEND FOR OVER 50 YEARS.

WE HAD A CERTAIN RELATIONSHIP THAT WAS VERY MUCH LIKE, YOU KNOW, LIKE LAUREL AND HARDY IN A WAY.

WE LOVED EACH OTHER'S MUSIC, WE COULD HARMONIZE TOGETHER.

I MET DAVID THROUGH CASS ELLIOTT, WHO WAS THE SINGER FROM THE MA'AM MAMAS AND THE PAPAS.

SHE INTRODUCED ME TO CROSBY, AND HE INTRODUCED ME TO STEPHEN.

AND WHEN DAVID AND STEPHEN AND I FIRST SANG TOGETHER IN JONI'S LIVING ROOM, SHE WAS THE ONLY WITNESS TO THE BIRTH OF THE VOCAL SOUND OF CROSBY, STILLS, AND NASH.

THAT SOUND THAT WE CREATED WAS BORN IN 45 SECONDS.

WE DID NOT HAVE TO REHEARSE FOR MONTHS.

I WAS VISITING JOAN, I HAD COME FROM ENGLAND.

WHEN I GOT TO THE -- TO THE DRIVEWAY OF JOAN'S HOUSE, THERE WERE OTHER PEOPLE THERE, AND THAT KIND OF UPSET ME, I JUST WANTED TO SPEND TIME WITH JONI, BUT IT WAS DAVID AND STEPHEN, AND THEY WERE HAVING DINNER WITH JOAN, SO, I WENT IN AND AT THE END OF DINNER, CROSBY SAID TO STEPHEN, HEY, PLAY WILL THAT SONG THAT WE WERE JUST SINGING.

SO, OBVIOUSLY DAVID HAD BEEN THROWN OUT OF THE BIRDS, OBVIOUSLY, THE BUFFALO SPRINGFIELD HAD BROKEN UP, AND DAVID AND STEPHEN WANTED TO GET TOGETHER AND CREATE A DUO KIND OF THING, AND THEY HAD THIS SONG WORKED OUT CALLED "YOU DON'T HAVE TO CRY," WHICH IS A SONG ON THE FIRST CROSBY, STILLS, AND NASH RECORD.

THEY SANG IT, THEY GOT TO THE END, I SAID, STEPHEN, THAT'S AN UNBELIEVABLY BEAUTIFUL SONG.

DO ME A FAVOR, SING IT AGAIN.

THEY LOOKED AT EACH OTHER, THEY SHRUGGED, THEY SANG IT AGAIN.

WHEN THEY GOT TO THE END OF IT, I SAID, ALL RIGHT.

I'M A HARMONY SINGER AND I'M PRETTY GOOD AT WHAT I DO.

I HAD LEARNED THE WORDS, I HAD WATCHED THE BODY LANGUAGE OF DAVID, I WAS WATCHING HOW STEPHEN STARTED A PHRASE AND HOW HE FINISHED A PHRASE.

AND I SAID, LOOK.

DO ME A FAVOR, SING IT FOR THE THIRD TIME.

I ADDED MY HARMONY AND IN 45 SECONDS, WE HAD TO STOP AND LAUGH, BECAUSE EVEN THOUGH THE BIRDS AND THE SPRINGFIELD AND THE HOLLIES WERE VERY DECENT HARMONY BANDS, WE HAD NEVER HEARD ANYTHING LIKE THIS.

WHEN DAVID AND STEPHEN AND I SANG AROUND ONE MICROPHONE, IT WAS A SOUND THAT CHANGED OUR LIVES.

I REALIZED I WOULD HAVE TO GO BACK TO ENGLAND, I WOULD HAVE TO LEAVE THE HOLLIES AND LEAVE ALL MY EQUIPMENT AND JUST COME TO AMERICA AND FOLLOW THAT SOUND.

I'M A MUSICIAN AND I AM NOT CRAZY.

WHEN I HEARD THAT SOUND THAT WE CREATED, I KNEW THAT MY LIFE HAD CHANGED.

>> THAT SONG YOU SANG TOGETHER, THREE OF YOU IN FRONT OF THE MICROPHONE.

CAN YOU SING A FEW BARS?

CAN YOU REMIND US OF THAT SONG?

>> SURE.

♪ IN THE MORNING ♪ ♪ WHEN YOU RISE ♪ ♪ DO YOU THINK OF ME ♪ ♪ AND HOW YOU LEFT ME CRYING ♪ >> AND THAT'S THE FIRST VERSE.

>> WHAT MEMORIES OF DAVID CROSBY, YOU SAY YOU WERE REALLY CLOSE TO HIM FOR 50 YEARS, YOU HAVE YOUR FALLING OUT, DID YOU RECONCILE, ARE THERE ANY MEMORIES THAT YOU SHARED NEAR THE END?

>> YES.

ABOUT EIGHT DAYS BEFORE DAVID PASSED AWAY, HE SENT ME AN EMAIL AND HE SAID, I WANT TO TALK TO YOU, I KNOW THAT I HAVEN'T SPOKEN TO YOU IN TWO YEARS, BUT WE NEED TO TALK.

I NEED TO APOLOGIZE.

AND SO, I SET UP A TIME TO -- TO USE FACETIME WHERE WE COULD SEE EACH OTHER, AND I SET IT UP FOR 2:00 MY TIME IN NEW YORK, WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN 11:00 A.M.

IN CALIFORNIA, AND I WAITED, AND I WAITED FOR THE CALL, AND THE CALL NEVER CAME.

BUT WE WERE TALKING TOWARDS THE END THERE.

AND I REALIZED THAT HE HAD -- HE HAD TO APOLOGIZE FOR SHOOTING HIS MOUTH OFF, PARTICULARLY ABOUT NEIL AND HIS WIFE DARYL HANNAH, AND ME, AND I'M INCREDIBLY GRATEFUL THAT HE WANTED TO STRAIGHTEN THINGS OUT BETWEEN US.

BECAUSE WE HAD BEEN FRIENDS FOR SO LONG, AND WE HAD BEEN THROUGH MANY, MANY THINGS TOGETHER.

BUT DAVID CROSBY WAS AN INCREDIBLE MUSICIAN, HE TUNED HIS GUITAR IN MANY DIFFERENT WAYS, HE WAS JAZZ INFLUENCED, HE WAS EVERLY BROTHS INFLUENCED.

HE WAS A GREAT MUSICIAN.

I WILL MISS HIM AND I WILL THINK ABOUT HIM EVERY DAY FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE.

>> WHAT'S YOUR FAVORITE SONG OF ALL YOUR YEARS?

>> THAT'S AN INTERESTING QUESTION.

PROBABLY "TEACH YOUR CHILDREN" OR "OUR HOUSE."

I THINK THEY WILL LAST LONGER, CERTAINLY THAN I WILL.

I MEAN, AT 81, I REALIZE I'M COMING TO THE END OF MY LIFE.

BUT I -- I WILL BE KICKING AND SCREAMING AS THEY PUT ME IN MY COFFIN.

I WANT TO BE MAKING MUSIC EVERY SINGLE DAY FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE.

>> "TEACH YOUR CHILDREN," I MEAN, AN AWESOME SONG.

♪ TEACH YOUR CHILDREN WELL ♪ ♪ BECAUSE THEIR FATHER'S HELL ♪ ♪ DID SLOWLY GO BY ♪ >> BOTH PERSONAL AND IT'S POLITICAL.

AND YOU'VE HAD SOME ROCKY RELATIONSHIPS WITH YOUR CHILDREN, TOO, I THINK.

HOW IS THAT INFORMED AND HOW DOES THAT RESONATE WITH A SONG LIKE "TEACH YOUR CHILDREN" AND I THINK YOU HAVE ONE SIMILAR, IF I'M RIGHT, CALLED "A BETTER LIFE" THAT'S ON THE NEW ALBUM.

>> WE HAVE TO MAKE THIS WORLD A BETTER PLACE THAN WE LEFT IT.

I LOVE WILLIE NELSON'S QUOTE WHEN HE SAYS, IF YOU WANT TO CHANGE THE WORLD, SORT OUT YOUR IMMEDIATE SURROUNDINGS.

PICK UP A PIECE OF LITTER.

PAT A CHILD ON THE HEAD.

ENCOURAGE HIM TO LEARN.

WE CAN -- WE CAN LEAVE THIS PLACE A BETTER PLACE FOR OUR CHILDREN.

AND IN "TEACH YOUR CHILDREN," WE HAVE A LOT TO LEARN FROM OUR KIDS.

AND THEY HAVE A LOT TO LEARN FROM US.

AND "BETTER LIFE" IS IN A WAY AN EXTENSION OF THAT THOUGHT PROCESS.

I WROTE "BETTER LIFE" WITH MY FRIEND GEORGE MERRILL, WHO WROTE THE NUMBER ONE HITS FOR WHITNEY HOUSTON, AND WE MADE A REALLY FINE RECORD OF OUR SONG.

>> CAN YOU LEAVE US WITH JUST A FEW -- SINGING A FEW BARS OF "BETTER LIFE"?

>> SURE.

♪ LET'S MAKE IT A BETTER LIFE ♪ ♪ AND LEAVE IT FOR THE KIDS ♪ ♪ IT'S A LOVELY PLACE ♪ ♪ A WELCOME HOME TO THE HUMAN RACE ♪ ♪ LET'S MAKE IT A BETTER LIFE ♪ ♪ ONE WE CAN BE PROUD OF ♪ ♪ SO AT THE END OF THE DAY ♪ ♪ I HOPE WE HEAR THEM SAY ♪ ♪ THAT WE LEFT THEM A BETTER LIFE ♪ >> GRAHAM NASH, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> YOU'RE VERY, VERY WELCOME.

>>> AND ON THAT MUSICAL NOTE, WE END OUR PROGRAM FOR TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING, AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.

♪♪