Michigan lawmakers finish the state budget and leave town to run for reelection.

At least to the Michigan House.

And what about that debate on the presidential stage?

A special correspondence edition of Off the Record is up next.

And you're invited to join in.

The panel includes Colin Jackson, Beth LeBlanc, Joey Chappell and Bill Ballenger.

Sit in with us as we get the inside out.

Off the record.

Production of Off the Record is made possible, in part by Martin Waymire, a full service strategic communications agency, partnering with clients through public relations, digital marketing and public policy engagement.

Learn more at MartinWaymire.com.

And now this edition of Off the Record, with Tim Skubick.

Thank you very much.

Welcome back to Off the Record Studio C Well, the budget is now sort of history.

What's the lead story?

Beth?

I mean, I think the lead story coming out of the budget negotiations was the education budget.

It caused a lot of ruckus within the Capitol in that 19 hour sessio where they were trying to come to some agreement with the school groups who were really disappointed that their foundation allowance wouldn't increase this year.

Not only that, it's not increasing, but the foundation allowance fo charter schools is increasing.

And although there's, you know, explanations as to why that happened, the look of it wasn't great.

When you see charter schools increasing and everybody else just staying the same.

Well, the education lobby argues we want that money in the foundation grant because then it's there for next year and we build on next year's raise, right?

Yeah, that's.

Been.

The tradition.

Since 2010.

They've had a raise in the foundation grant every year until this year.

So they're hopping mad.

I mean, the school lobby is furious.

They say this is the worst school budget they've seen in 20 years.

But yet, Joey, the governor and the Democrats are saying you're getting more money in this budget is just in a different cup.

Yeah, I think I mean, they're sayin the money is like you're saying, you know, coming from somewhere else.

I think going into this budget, you know, the governor, legislative leaders, school groups all had different priorities that they wanted in there.

You know, the governor wanted free preschool for everyone.

Free community college.

She got part of that.

You know, I think there's a lot of anger over the fact that, you know, there was a rate reduction that they're saying is going to, you know, add u to about 600 million in savings, but it's not permanent, which is upset some Democrat lawmakers as well.

So I think it's kind of, you know, how you're looking at it where those savings are coming.

Democrat obviously saying there's going to be some extra money in these classrooms still.

Yeah, I mean, this was one of the things going into it where we knew that the school aid budget was going to be a contentious thing to get both Democrats on board, as well as possibly some Republicans there for immediate effect.

And like everyone else had mentioned, that schools are not necessarily happy with this.

This is something that we've been discussing, it feels like, for a few weeks now, especially with some of the retirement contributions and everything else coming up during earlier economic development talks over legislation that didn't pass.

So knowing that schools and the different funding mechanisms had already been a topic of conversation, it's not surprising that this was something controversial.

And there's something also not settled.

There's still legislation hanging out there dealing with teachers contributions to the retirement system and everything else too.

It was a fascinating debate because very seldom do you have the MEA and the governor on the opposite side when you got a deal.Am I not right there?

Yeah, I mean, that part of it, you know, I think we've seen for about, you know, for 2023 at least, there was a lot of unity on the Democratic side.

A lot of these groups everyone was on the same side.

And now I think you'r seeing a little bit of a split.

I think partially, you know, past budget there were still these pandemic, you know fueled large amount of dollars.

And so kind of for the first time, you know, in a few years, they're having to button down a little bit, you know, make some savings.

Obviously this budget was only 1 billion more than last year's budget, which is different.

I think the last one was about, you know, five or $6 billion increase.

So I think there's just you know, there's not the same amount of money and you're seeing kind of, you know, everyone have their own prioritie and things they want in there.

And there's just not, you know, the surge in funds anymore.

The Tim, I think the the upset over this budget is not done after they passed the budget.

I mean, there's there's some residual effect here.

The MEA is asking for supplemental to push more money towards schools.

The House Democratic Caucus is very divided right now about how everything went dow with the passage of this budget and in the fact that there isn't a permanent, you know, myths or solutio out there, even though they were they found, This is the teacher retirement piece.

Yes.

And in House Democrat felt that that they were going to get a permanent solution and it didn't materialize and they didn't realize it didn't materializ until after session concluded.

So there's a lot of upset, still there.

Its a very Partizan vote as well.

I mean, all the Republicans.

Oppose it.

They sat and watched.

Chambers.

Yeah, the Democrats got with their bare majorities in the House and Senate got it through.

But as you pointed out, they're very divided.

And frankly, if I were Democrats running in some of these swing or marginal districts that can determine control of the legislature next year, I'd be very nervous about having to run on this school budget once.

There's a lot of ange because there's a lot of anger.

But they'll just come home and say, look, we gave them between $300 an $500 more than they had before.

What are they crying about?

Foundation grant income.

The guy at home doesn't know what a foundation grant they think it has to do with something you wear around your waist.

The school peopl in these individual districts.

They will let everybody kno what's happened in the schools will know.

I just think it's was a really bad school budget.

As I said, the school lobby says it's the worst they've seen in 20 years.

They said it's a rare thing when you get management and labor on the same side in the school lobby and we all were disappointe in what we ended up with.

Was.

To that point though, as well, like, you know, the constituents maybe don't know exactly, you know, what's what's in it.

You know, the details.

But when you have these school groups, MEA you know, coming out critically, those are the things, you know, that people are going to that's going to be the takeaway is that school groups, you know, whether they oppose it or they're critical of it, that's what they're going to hear.

And I think, you know, the saying that's going to be difficult to go back to these districts and explain.

I mean, schools are something I think that people don't want really messed with.

You know, they want funding their well.

So to that point, Representative Sara Lightner, who's the House minority appropriate vice chair in the Appropriations Committee in the House, she said something that stuck with me after all the votes happened, and that's elections have consequences.

And we heard that a lot from Democrats talking about Republicans and especially in the national politics to the overturn of Roe v Wade.

But hearing Republicans use that to talk abou what happened with the education budget and saying that this is a consequence of Democratic leadership, I think that's something that Democrats don't want out there as a message.

And this obviously is an election year budget for the House members.

So there was a bunch of pork in here, Billy, But I my my question is, how can Republican sit there and not vote on pork coming back to your district.

Because they didn't get much of the pork.

They were mainly in Democratic districts in the metropolitan Detroit area.

Northern Michigan those legislators are furious.

Back to the school aid bill.

Those districts up there are getting screwed by the school aid bill.

So anyway, it was easy for Republican to oppose the pork in this bill.

Did you like any of the pork?

Well, I mean, on that point I think Representative John Roth put out a statement saying there were only 12 projects in northern Michigan.

There are more than 200 projects total.

So I think that is a little bit revolting about where the money was going.

You know, there's always everybody always takes issue with the word pork, right, because they see it as an earmark, as an investment in their community.

Trust me, I've heard it all.

But, enhancement grass.

Oh I love that it we feel so warm and fuzzy, you know.

Oh, we're going to enhance.

They have come up with a lot of good names over the years for that.

You know, there was a lot in there.

We're still combing through it.

You know, sometimes it takes months to figure out all the pork that is in there.

There was a lot for sporting facilities, big sports comple in West Michigan, in other parts of the state in Shelby Township, I believe one was.

Lansing Yes, the Lugnuts got some money.

Yeah.

So I guess it's, you know all in the eye of the beholder, in the eye of the taxpayer in this sense.

I mean, are you happ where where that money is going?

I guess they'll figure out at the the ballot box.

The speaker gets pretty good marks for holding his 56 vote because as we as the march up to this final vote, there was all sorts of stuff going on subrosa.

The progressives are going to walk, you know, blah, blah, blah.

They pulled it together.

Yeah.

I mean and that's a little bit I think you do have to give Democrats some credit because I think, you know, journalists obviously, obviously talk and you know, is this going to pass?

You know, we have to come back later.

And as they have over the last 18 months have been in power, they got the vote and it took until 4 or 5 a.m..

But, you know, he people them together and, you know, speaker got the votes.

So I think there is some credit that even though there was division at the end, they got the budget passed.

So the debate last night.

Yes, I mean, this is something where I thin there was a lot of anticipation going into it.

What's going to happen on the big the themes of the debate wer kind of laid out in front of us.

You know, Trump coming in a fresh off a felony conviction and going in.

What's going to happe there ahead of the sentencing.

Meanwhile, President Biden, his age was a giant question.

How is he going to hold up?

This is going to be a long debate for him just to be talking one on one without an audience, without interruptions agains former President Donald Trump.

And I think if you're a Democrat, you're probably not coming away feeling the most optimistic.

There was a few moments early on where Biden stumbled.

He seemed to find his way at various points of it.

But then the debate kind of just got weird, for lac of a better way of putting it.

So, I mean, I don't necessaril know if any votes were changed.

I don't think that Democrats convinced anyone to vote for Biden after this debate.

It was a train wreck for Joe Biden.

I mean, it was just stated baldly.

It was a disaster for him.

And you got national Democrat worried sick and hand-wringing and talk about getting him off the ticket.

I mean, that has resurfaced.

So, you know, the Republicans are doing a victory lap.

They think they really scored big.

Yes, you can pick apart a lot of the stuff that Trump said.

No question he dodged questions, wouldn't give an answer.

Obviously, the usual hyperbole with Trump and the name calling from both sides.

So each one is the wors president in history or the best president in history.

And both were liars.

And maybe both were liars.

I think maybe we just take that out of it.

They were both liars on that subject.

So I mean, it overall, Joe Biden had one thing to prove last night that he's not a doddering old man and tha he's capable of doing the job.

And he didn't do that.

It was a big step backward.

The Democrats are sayin we fact checked and Donald Trump is not telling the truth.

That's not going t that's not a new story, is it?

No, it's not.

The allegation from th Democrats about him lying about.

Everything.

Yeah, exactly.

And I think, you know, a lot of the headline is, you know, but that Biden, you know, did in some ways, you know, a bomb, I guess.

And, you know, Trump kind of lied.

And I think that was but I think the thing is that when people are tuning in, as Bill said, you know they're they're looking at Biden to kind of show, you know, this energy.

And I think that was obviously the most important thing for him.

And I think a lot of voter are not maybe tuning in to hear, you know, the policy specifics and these you know, whether this is true or false, I think they want to see, you know, the ages.

That's one of the most important things.

And I think it's difficult to, you know, Biden didn't didn't dispel those concerns, I guess.

And, you know, I'm a reporter.

I'm not a pundit, so I'm not going to maybe.

But I think that was, you know, the maybe one thing that he had to prove.

Well, Mr. Biden, you know, did make it if you if you tracked it, if you put a line on it, he started very slow.

The bad news is people may have only watched the beginning the debate.

If you saw the first 9 minutes, you said, wha the heck's wrong with this guy?

First impression is the most powerful.

A lot of people just tune out after that.

But the line that went up, he got stronger as the debate went on, but it started out, deteriorated at the end.

Look at these debates are not about the content of the debates.

They are about the impression that is left afterwards.

And I was watching that just from the beginning.

Trump's voice was stronger.

Yes, Mr. Biden's voice was weaker, bad start.

Look, it's just like the Kennedy-Nixon debate, the famous debate in 1960.

People who listened to i on the radio thought Nixon won.

Right.

Anybody watching on television said Kennedy won.

I mean, you had the 5:00 shadow, the sweating, the kind of shifty eyed Nixon and Kennedy looked like a Greek god.

And that was really all people cared about.

And yet when it comes to impressions, I mean, I know there is a lot of talk about golf yesterday in it, but I mean, it was putt-putt basically.

I feel like it was you know, it just felt it it felt slow.

And it was he was soft spoken but it wasn't just soft spoken.

It was trailing off at the end of sentences.

And it was it left a bad impression.

And you're correct that h picked up steam towards the end.

And there was a lot that that Trump, you know, he obviously was dodging questions left and right.

He but I don't think tha many people will remember that.

I think they're going to remember the way Biden performed during that debate.

And to that point lik it was the way it started out.

You know, even before they even got their first question, when you saw Biden walk on stage, he's kind of moving a little bit slower.

He's kind of saying hi to the people that were in the room, you know, But he was kind of muttering.

So it didn't necessarily come off like someone, oh, just being friendly.

Versus Trump he just walked straight onto the right onto the stage and got behind his microphone and was ready to go.

It was the early questions that I mentioned.

Biden started off very slow.

Some answers were almost unintelligible at times.

And then he did pick it up.

You saw it in his eyes.

You saw when he kind of woke up, when he got more engaged, when he started being willing to go after Trump and showing them more vitality that people talk about.

The problem was it happened in flashes.

It didn't happen consistently over the course of the entire debate.

That was one of the national reporters last night said there was a congressional group that was group watching.

And at that early momen in the beginning of the debate, where he simply lost his train of thought, it was that was a mic drop moment.

Right.

And everybody knew, woof, we're in trouble here.

And that's what's been replayed repeatedly on radio and TV this morning, Last night after the debate.

You know, it's almost the post-debate discussion between the pundits in the nattering class.

That's as important as the debate itself.

And if they keep replicating these little incidents and show exactly what happene last night and who was talking and how they did it, that could have a powerful impact on the electorate.

So does this debate have a half life or does it have a full life?

Does this continue on for weeks on end?

It's going to continue at least until the September debate.

If it if.

If there is one.

If there is one.

Yeah.

All right.

What's that?

What's the scuttlebutt in town about people running for president other than Mr. Biden?

You're smiling.

Well, I think there's there's two things.

I mean, I'll comment on that.

But first of all, I think one of the other takeaways in Michigan from that debate is how this might impact other races, because the top of the ticket is going to have an impact on the congressional races.

We obviously have a huge Senate race and we have some House races.

I think one of the interesting things about the Senate race is that Elissa Slotkin, who's, you know, the favorite to win the Democratic nomination, she has ran kind of her own campaign in a sense.

You know, she's been has enough money where she can kind of run, you know, to the side of Biden a little bit.

She doesn't have to, you know, show up on stage with them and do these campaign events, some of these other House candidates.

You know, I think this might the top of the ticket is goin to have an impact on their race.

But to your second question, you know, I think if you go on Twitter, if you go on these things, you know, Whitmer's name is obviously mentioned.

Governor Whitmer's name is obviously mentioned as, you know, a potential you know, could she step in?

I think that is a little bit of a Democratic dream.

I think, you know, if you go to other states at this point, four months out, if you talk to a voter, you know, in Michigan, people know who Gretchen Whitmer is.

I don't know if someone, you know in Virginia knows who she is.

If they do, you know, the don't know about her platform.

So I don't know if that' a realistic thing at this time.

And there last nigh was the governor of California.

He was everywhere wasn't he?

To that point, though, every time I open up X, formly known as Twitter, I see some sponsored ad by Gavin Newsom, some sponsor message talking about him lately for the first time this past week, when I open it up, I saw some sponsored message from Governor Whitmer as well.

So I wonder what that's kind of playing into getting that name ID up like you mentioned.

Well, what about good old Kamala Harris?

What's going to happen to her?

You're going to have an all female ticket for the Democrats, pushed Jo into the closet and two females?

Well, go ahead.

I don't think the governor will will run as a vice president, but I will say the release of her book is is well timed.

It appears.

She had no idea.

She had no idea the timing would be so good unless she looked at the calendar.

Has she reacted to this debat to have we picked up anything?

I haven't seen anything.

There are some, you know, comments I think on X, formally Twitter, but I don't think I haven't really seen any statement or, you know, broad.

I'm sure she'll come out.

You know, today She's she's his campaign co-chair.

So I would imagine.

She has to come on.

Yeah.

Something look the standard.

Yes, she does.

Okay.

If she'll be pushe to make some kind of a comment.

Not if you can't find her.

No.

You can try to push your governor when you can't find them?

You are better at finding these people than anybody.

Yes, but I'm not Sherlock Holmes.

Okay?

When it comes to news gathering, I think you are.

And I know you're going to find her.

You're going to get a comment or somebody else is.

But look, the standard Democratic response in the debate last night, the best face that you put on it is that Trump lied, that he just misstated facts and, that doesn't matter.

Yeah, I'm not saying they're right in saying this.

If that's the best they got they're in trouble.

That's the best they got.

They are in trouble.

They know they're in trouble.

They're panicked right now.

Well, that's the thing, too, that a lot of the peopl that were watching this debate, I think, had already made up their mind.

I don't think that the level of swing voters ou there are as much as Democrats or Republicans will like to believe.

I think that there's a lot of people that have concerns, whether it's Biden's age, whether it's the economy, whether it's Biden stance on Israel versus Hamas, etc..

I think those people ar who Biden needs to reach out to.

But when I talk to people, for example, in the black community or just voters on the street, that the two mai kind of schools I get are either I don't care how old he is, I don't care if he's making sense the policies his administration is coming up with.

It's not just about the one man.

It's about the entirety of the administration.

And I support that or the same or the opposite, whereas I don't support that and I don't necessarily care if Trump's lying or I don't care because I feel like he cares about me and I feel like he's going to do what's best for the country and I'm going to thrive under him.

Here is another part of Mr. Biden's promise excuse me, as Mr. Trump has his base solid.

Mr. Biden's base is wobbly.

When we talk about this fairly small.

Don't make mistake.

They're with him but they're not in the numbers as they need to be.

One of the two parties say al along it's a turnout election.

So if you drive down enthusiasm for your standard bearer, what does that do for turning out the vote?

It doesn't help.

In fact, it hurts.

So that's the problem.

Remember the mushy middle independent voters may be few and far between compare to the basis of the two parties.

But but you've got a 1%, 2% 3% swing deciding who's going to win.

That's all that you need if you can just get a substantial portion of that.

To your point, though, Biden's base in Michigan, at least, is bigger.

And my you know, I think he won by three percentage points.

You see the Democratic base.

I mean, Governor Whitmer won by 11 percentage points.

So I do think, although you know, you're seeing division among that base, you know you're seeing the things about, you know, places like Dearborn.

You know, I do still think that Democrats, you know, they have a firm grasp on Michigan.

So I think they still have an advantage.

Even if Trump's base is maybe tighter, it's smaller, I think, in Michigan.

Well I think there is still concern that the Arab community down there is an important thing.

Yeah, they support them, but not in the numbers.

The black community is the numbers are not where they're supposed to be.

Absolutely right.

I mean, look, you're right.

The Democratic base is broader, but it's shallower.

And let's not forget about the union.

All i the union vote is shifting more and more to the Republicans up in Trump.

Country counties like Saginaw, Genesee getting more and more Republica conservative, blue collar voters don't like what they see in the Democratic Party.

But look beyond that again.

It gets back to the performance of the standard bearer, Joe Biden.

And if he doesn' inspire his people to turn out, that's what hurts.

You can have a very broad party base, but if they don't get out and vote for whatever reason and Joe Biden gave them a reason not to vote last night, it's not going to help you.

Perhaps the line of the night came during their debate of who had the best handicap on the golf course.

And Mr. Trump says let's not act like children.

I thought that was a line.

That was a tremendous line.

Let's not act like children.

Joe.

Trump the peacemaker.

Let's be adults here right.

Trump the peacemaker.

Trying to calm the water.

Yeah actuall reaching out in a human way to, you know, let's not act like children.

Yeah, I know.

Yeah, that was hilarious.

All right.

What was anything hilarious about the foil legislation moving it from the sublime to the ridiculous?

I mean, if I'm being pessimistic, I mean, if on one side, I don't want to take away the achievement of it passing the Senate, this is the first time since this legislation has been introduced tha it has gotten out of the senate.

All they had to do was remove Mike Shirky.

Okay.

That's all you have to do.

Right.

But then in the House, what's it going to happen?

If you look at the House Oversight Committees voting record they haven't voted on any bills.

Not a single fiscal committee.

No.

They've held one hearin on bills, two bills in a package that the Democrats had announced that had a lot of fanfare.

About only two bills in a package got a hearing.

It was one hearing, and that is it.

And I would be very surprised if we get another hearing before Election Day.

Alright so this was on the governor's office and the legislative branch.

There were a lot of exemption in there.

Some understandable.

We don't want to release information if there's a criminal investigation going on.

But what is this going to resonate?

I think it's been describe as being able to drive a truck through it in terms of loopholes in the law.

Yeah, I mean.

A big truck or just a little one?

I don't know, it depends on your perspective there.

But what Colin said is correct that it is a huge achievement.

Right?

It hasn't gotte through the Senate in forever.

I think in in it was a huge moment for the Senate to get it through.

It is a step forward.

But, you know, there are significant exemptions in terms of communications with constituents.

Right.

That those are exempt.

And for the life of me, I don't understand why, you know, if I were to foi a mayor or a city council member who had a public email, I would be able to get thei communication with constituents.

I don't understand why state lawmakers would be exempt in that sense or even the governor, but it is a step forward.

We will be getting more information than we did before or arguably under the law, we should be able to.

Kudos to Mr. McBroom and Mr. Moss.

I mean, these guys had been working on this thing longer than many of us had been alive, and it was an accomplishment.

But you're right the future in the House is iffy.

Why?

What do they have against it sharing information with reporters?

The house has passed this before many times.

It's always the senate.

Didn't they get 100 votes for that?

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's the Senate that has been the stumbling block.

And now all of a sudden the Senate is initiating this unless no legislators have a cynical deal.

Can we imagine that between the two chambers?

Okay, Senate, you go this tim and we'll stop it in the House.

You know, if we start.

It, that's not how it works, is it?

Yes, it is.

It is.

You know that.

I mean, I don't even think we know if really the hous is going to be back this year.

You know, seriously, they hav to start, you know, campaigning.

We've got a long summer break.

We don't really know what's going to happen in November if Democrats are going to maintain the majority or if retain the majority or if, you know, Republicans are going to it.

So I'm a little bit with column and I'm pretty pessimistic that, you know, I don't know if this is just symbolic.

I do.

I think we all agree, you know, give them kudos.

But at the same time, will the House be back?

Will they vote on this?

Will the governor sign it?

There's just still so many questions.

I actually I feel more optimistic about i in terms of that.

Good for you.

I feel like they have passed it before on a bipartisan basis when it had even stricter rules in terms of what would would be subject to foia.

So I do think they'll get it through where I think there might be the things might get snarled a little bit is if they try to make changes to it.

Any kind of detail change is problematic in the House when when they're trying to.

get through.

Remember, the House voted 100 votes because why they knew it was going to die in the Senate.

Right.

All right.

They're telling me we got to say good night or good day or whatever it is.

Okay.

Thank you all for showing up.

More off the record right here next week.

See you then.

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