♪♪ >>> HELLO AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> Translator: I DO NOT EVEN KNOW HOW TO DESCRIBE IT.

MY SON WAS KILLED IN THE WAR AND NOW THIS.

>> AS THE WAR CONTINUES TO TAKE A DEEP HUMAN TOLL, THE QUESTION IS HAS THE TIME COME FOR UKRAINE TO JOIN NATO.

AHEAD OF ITS CRUCIAL SUMMIT, WE DEBATE WITH FORMER ANDERS FOGH RASMUSSEN AND HISTORIAN STEPHEN WERTHEIM.

>>> PLUS -- >> HE GAVE US ONE VOICE AND POWER.

>> 50 YEARS SINCE SHE CREATED THE WOMEN'S WILLIAMS, TRAILBLAZING ICON BILLIE JEAN KING ON HOW IT CHANGED THE GAME AND THE ISSUES FACING FEMALE ATHLETES TO THIS DAY.

>>> THEN, "THE TALK."

PULITZER PRIZE WINNER DARRIN BELL ON HIS STUNNING NEW GRAPHIC MEMOIR.

AN INTIMATE LOOK AT POLICE BRUTALITY AND HOW IT IMPACTS BLACK FAMILIES ACROSS AMERICA.

>>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY FUND.

SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

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BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

WE TRY TO LIVE IN THE MOMENT, TO NOT MISS WHAT IS RIGHT IN FRONT OF US.

AT MUTUAL OF AMERICA WE BELIEVE TAKING CARE OF TOMORROW CAN HELP YOU MAKE THE MOST OF TODAY.

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THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

ALMOST 500 DAYS OF WAR AND THE PAIN INFLICTED ON UKRAINE SHOWS NO SIGN OF ABATING.

IN FACT, IT CAN COME AT ANY TIME AND ANYWHERE.

IN KRAMATORSK, PARENTS HAVE BURY CHILDREN AFTER A MISSILE STRIKE ON A BUSY RESTAURANT THIS WEEK.

THE ATTACK ON CIVILIANS HAS LEFT THE COUNTRY REELING.

AND THE PRESSURE IS ON NATO ALLIES TO START FORGING A PROPER ROUTE TOWARDS PERMANENT SECURITY GUARANTEES FOR UKRAINE.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY THIS WEEK STEPPED UP HIS CALLS FOR AN INVITATION TO JOIN THE ALLIANCE.

AND THIS CRITICAL QUESTION WILL DOMINATE NATO'S SUMMIT IN VILNIUS IN TWO WEEKS' TIME.

ANDERS FOGH RASMUSSEN IS THE FORMER SECRETARY GENERAL OF NATO AND FORMER PRIME MINISTER OF DENMARK.

HE NOW ADVISES THE GOVERNMENT IN KYIV AND HE BELIEVES ALL OF EUROPE'S SECURITY IS STRENGTHENED BY INVITING UKRAINE INTO NATO.

MEANWHILE, HISTORIAN AND AUTHOR STEPHEN WERTHEIM REPRESENTS THE DIFFERENT VIEW.

RECENTLY WRITING IN "THE NEW YORK TIMES" THAT UKRAINE'S BEST PATH TO PEACE IS TO BE WELL ARMED AND SUPPORTED OUTSIDE NATO.

>> GENTLEMEN, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

YOU BOTH HAVE PRETTY DIVERGENT VIEWS AND ON THE RECORD AS SUCH REGARDING THE BEST ROUTE FORWARD FOR SECURITY FOR UKRAINE.

FIRST AND FOREMOST, I WANT TO ASK YOU TO PUT IT INTO THE CONTEXT OF WHAT HAPPENED.

DOES WHAT HAPPENED OVER THE WEEKEND, THE CHALLENGE TO PUTIN, CHANGE ANY EQUATION?

ANDERS FOGH RASMUSSEN?

>> OVER THE WEEKEND, IT SHOWED HOW FRAGILE THE RUSSIAN SOCIETY IS AND THE INSTABILITY THAT RUSSIA REPRESENTS.

THAT STRENGTHENS THE ARGUMENT FOR LETTING UKRAINE JOIN NATO.

WE NEED UKRAINE AS A STRONG AND STABLE EASTERN EUROPEAN ALLY THAT CAN SERVE AS A BALL WORK AGAINST A STILL AGGRESSIVE RUSSIA.

>> AND STEPHEN, YOU DON'T THINK UKRAINE SHOULD BE A NATO NOW OR IN A FIRST INSTANCE.

BUT DO YOU THINK THINGS HAVE BEEN CHANGED SINCE THE EVENTS OF THE WEEKEND AND HOW IT SHOWED PUTIN, YOU KNOW, IS POTENTIALLY VULNERABLE.

>> GOOD TO BE WITH YOU.

I DON'T THINK WHAT HAPPENED OVER THE WEEKEND CHANGES THE EQUATION AT ALL WITH RESPECT TO UKRAINE'S MEMBERSHIP PROSPECTS IN NATO OF THE SIMPLE FACT IS THAT IF UKRAINE WERE TO JOIN NATO, FIRST OF ALL, WOULD CROSS A WELL ESTABLISHED RED LINE FOR RUSSIA THAT MANY HAVE WARNED ABOUT OVER THE YEARS AND, THUS, IF THIS CURRENT WAR ENDS, COULD PROMPT A RUSSIAN REINVASION OF UKRAINE.

SECONDLY, WOULD CONFRONT THE ENTIRE NATO ALLIANCE WITH TWO UNPALATABLE OPTIONS.

FIRST, TO WAGE WHAT PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS CALLED WORLD WAR III WITH RUSSIA OVER UKRAINE, OR, SECOND, TO DECLINE TO DEFEND UKRAINE AND THEREBY WEAKEN NATO'S ARTICLE 5 SECURITY GUARANTEE ACROSS THE ENTIRE ALLIANCE.

SO I THINK THAT'S THE INESCAPABLE REALITY OF TRYING TO BRING UKRAINE INTO NATO.

>> WELL, BEFORE I GET FORMER SECRETARY GENERAL TO COMMENT ON THAT, I DO NEED TO ASK YOU, BECAUSE THAT IS THE ARGUMENT THAT HAS PREVAILED SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THIS.

PRECISELY AS YOU LAY IT OUT.

I AM WONDERING WHETHER EVENTS OVER MORE THAN A YEAR OF WAR MAY HAVE OUTDATED THOSE.

I THINK, FOR INSTANCE, STEPHEN, YOU SAY UKRAINE'S BEST PATH TO PEACE IS TO BE WELL ARMED AND SUPPORTED OUTSIDE THE NATO.

BUT THIS FEAR OF PUTIN DOING OTHER THAN THE INVASION, THESE SO-CALLED ESCALATIONS, HAVE ACTUALLY NOT COME TO PASS.

>> WELL, I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, THE INCREASING COOPERATION BETWEEN NATO AND UKRAINE WAS ONE FACTOR AMONG OTHERS THAT PROBABLY PRECIPITATED PUTIN'S TERRIBLE DECISION TO LAUNCH A FULL-SCALE INVASION OF UKRAINE.

NOW SHALL IT'S TRUE IN THE COURSE OF THE WAR SOME FEARS THAT RUSSIA WOULD ESCALATE HAVE PROVED TO BE UNFOUNDED.

ON THE OTHER HAND, UKRAINE AND ITS PARTNERS HAVE TRIED TO ACT WITH A SENSE OF RESTRAINT BECAUSE THE OVERALL GOAL, AT LEAST BY THE UNITED STATES AND THE NATO ALLIANCE, HAS BEEN TO AVOID A DIRECT CLASH BETWEEN NATO FORCES AND RUSSIAN FORCES.

SO I THINK WE HAVE TO -- IT'S VERY HARD IN THE MIDST OF THIS TERRIBLE INVASION COMPLETELY UNJUSTIFIED INVASION OF UKRAINE TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT PROVOKING RUSSIA.

OF COURSE, THAT'S NOT WHERE PEOPLE ARE THINKING TODAY.

AT SOME POINT THANK GOODNESS THIS WAR WILL COME TO AN END AND AT THAT POINT IT WILL BECOME VERY IMPORTANT TO FIND THE MOST STABLE PATH FOR UKRAINE AND FOR EUROPE.

>> ANDERS FOGH RASMUSSEN, I WANTED TO ASK YOU A SIMILAR QUESTION ABOUT THE FEARS OF PUTIN.

BECAUSE, FROM THE VERY BEGINNING, AS STEPHEN SAID, YOU KNOW, PRESIDENT BIDEN SAID I AM NOT GOING TO START WORLD WAR III OVER UKRAINE, EVEN BEFORE THAT PRESIDENT OBAMA WOULD SAY, YOU KNOW, THE SIMILAR THINGS.

EVERYBODY CONCERNED ABOUT STARTING A NUCLEAR WAR AND THE LIKE.

DID WE GET IT WRONG ABOUT PUTIN?

DO YOU THINK THAT'S A LEGITIMATE FEAR AND HAVE WE PLAYED INTO THAT NARRATIVE?

>> YES, WE GOT IT WRONG.

THE FACT IS THAT PUTIN WILL NOT USE NUCLEAR WEAPONS BECAUSE THAT WILL BE THE END OF HIS REGIME IN RUSSIA.

AND WE SHOULD NEVER, EVER GIVE IN TO THREATS FROM RUSSIA.

THE PROBLEM IS THAT WE PROMISED UKRAINE BACK IN 2008 THAT UKRAINE WILL BECOME A MEMBER OF NATO BUT WE DIDN'T DO ANYTHING.

FOR 15 YEARS THEY HAVE BEEN IN THE WAITING ROOM, AND THE WAITING ROOM IS NOT SAFE PLACE.

THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT FINLAND AND SWEDEN HAVE REALIZED AND WHAT WE SHOULD RECOGNIZE FOR UKRAINE AS WELL.

SO I THINK WE SHOULD EXTEND AN INVITATION TO UKRAINE SOONER RATHER THAN LATER.

>> STEPHEN WERTHEIM, YOU DON'T THINK THERE SHOULD ABIN NATO NOW.

YOU ARE NODDING ABOUT THE WAITING ROOM, WHICH EVERYBODY SAYS WAS THE WORST OF ALL THE POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS HAVING BEEN INVITED AND THEN NOTHING HAPPENED ALL THOSE YEARS.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THEN NOW IS THE BEST WAY TO OFFER UKRAINE, YOU KNOW, SECURITY GUARANTEES IF AND WHEN THIS WAR ENDS?

>> I LIKE TO SEE PRETTY BOLD ACTION STARTING AT THE VILNIUS SUMMIT TO SHOW UKRAINE A VIABLE PATH FORWARD, NOT ONLY AFTER WAR, BUT ALSO DURING THIS WAR.

SO I THINK IT'S AN IDEA MANY HAVE DISCUSSED, INCLUDING THE UKRAINIAN GOVERNMENT, BASED ON THE MODEL OF ISRAEL IN WHICH UKRAINE'S PARTNERS WOULD ESSENTIALLY FORMALIZE THE KIND OF VERY EFFECTIVE SECURITY COOPERATION THAT THEY HAVE EXTENDED DURING THIS CONFLICT, MAKE SURE THAT UKRAINE HAS MULTIYEAR AGREEMENTS AND THAT THERE IS INTERNATIONAL COORDINATION RATHER THAN THE AD HOC KIND OF SUPPORT THAT HAD TO BE IMPROVISED IN THE WAKE OF RUSSIA'S INVASION LAST YEAR I THINK THAT'S A VIABLE WAY FORWARD THANKS TO THE BRAVERY THAT UKRAINIAN FORCES HAVE SHOWN IN THEIR EFFECTIVENESS ON THE BATTLEFIELD.

>> BUT ISRAEL HAS NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

THEY ARE NOT DECLARED, BUT EVERYBODY KNOWS THEY HAVE THEM.

UKRAINE GAVE THEM UP PRECISELY WITH A GUARANTEE FROM THE WEST AND RUSSIA TO PROTECT ITS TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY.

IT DOESN'T HAVE THOSE HE HAS WITH NOW.

RUSSIA DIDN'T PROTECT ITS TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY.

SO HOW WOULD THAT HELP?

>> NOT EVERY ASPECT OF ISRAEL NEEDS TO BE COPIED BY UKRAINE.

I WILL SAY IN 1994 WHEN UKRAINE GAVE UP NUCLEAR WEAPONS THAT WERE STATIONED ON ITS TERRITORY IT RECEIVED ASSURANCES NOT GUARANTEES TO GO TO WAR ON BEHALF OF UKRAINE.

THOSE ASSURANCES, OBVIOUSLY, ARE NOT STRONG ENOUGH AND RUSSIA'S WORD CANNOT BE TRUSTED.

BUT WHAT I SEE US HURTLING TOWARDS IN THE UPCOMING SUMMIT IN VILNIUS IS SOMETHING LIKE BUCHAREST REDUX, A COPY OF 2008 WHERE WE HAVE SOME NATO MEMBERS THAT ARE PUSHING TO ADMIT UKRAINE, NOT THE UNITED STATES TIME, AS IT WAS IN 2008, AND OTHERS THAT REALLY DON'T WANT TO DO THAT, AND SO WHAT I FEAR IS THAT I COMPLETELY AGREE A WAITING ROOM DOES NOT MAKE SENSE FOR UKRAINE OR FOR ANYONE, BUT I FEAR THAT THAT'S WHERE WE'LL END UP UNLESS THERE IS SOME REAL WILL POWER SAY ACTUALLY THIS NOT THE RIGHT TIME FOR UKRAINE TO JOIN NATO AND IT'S VERY HARD TO SEE WHAT THAT RIGHT TIME COULD POSSIBLY BE, BUT THERE IS ANOTHER PATH THAT CAN BE VERY EFFECTIVE THAT WILL TAKE A LOT OF MONEY, RESOURCES AND COMMITMENT FROM UKRAINE'S INTERNATIONAL PARTNERS, BUT THAT'S WHERE WE SHOULD ALL REALLY FOCUS OUR ENERGY.

>> I GUESS THE QUESTION THERE IS THAT EFFECTIVE AND EFFICIENT.

ANDERS FOGH RASMUSSEN, EFFECTIVE AND EFFICIENT, AND IF THEY DON'T GET THE INVITATION, WHICH I THINK NOBODY EXPECTS THEM TO GET AT VILNIUS SUMMIT, WHAT IS YET ANOTHER WAITING ROOM, ANOTHER INTERIM SOLUTION?

YOU SAID I SPOKE WITH SEVERAL EASTERN EUROPEAN LEADERS AND THERE IS A GROUP OF HARDCORE EASTERN CENTRAL EUROPEAN ALLIES THAT WANT A CLEAR PATH FOR UKRAINE TOWARDS NATO MEMBERSHIP.

YOU ALSO SAID THEY MIGHT STEP IN AND PROVIDE SOLDIERS AND PRESENCE.

>> YEAH, I WARNED AGAINST THAT KIND OF -- I WOULD LIKE TO SUPPRESS THE ULTIMATE SECURITY GUARANTEE FOR UKRAINE WOULD BE TO JOIN NATO [ INAUDIBLE ].

IT MAY, AS YOU INDICATED, THAT THEY WILL NOT GET AN INVITATION IN VILNIUS.

SO I WOULD SUGGEST A WAY FORWARD.

FIRSTLY, A NUMBER OF NATO ALLIES SIGN UP TO PROVIDE SECURITY GUARANTEES FOR UKRAINE BECAUSE THEY WILL NEED THEM ANYWAY UNTIL UKRAINE CAN JOIN NATO, THEY WILL NEED SECURITY GUARANTEES TO MAKE THEM MORE CAPABLE TO DEFEND THEMSELVES AGAINST ANY FUTURE RUSSIAN ATTACK.

THAT'S EXACTLY THE CONTENT OF THE KYIV SECURITY COMPACT THAT I HANDED OVER TO PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY LAST YEAR.

THAT SHOULD BE ONE THING.

AND THEN AT THE VILNIUS SUMMIT WE SHOULD OFFER UKRAINE THE SAME ACCELERATED PATH TOWARDS NATO MEMBERSHIP AS FINLAND AND SWEDEN HAVE RECEIVED.

AND WE SHOULD ESTABLISH A NATO UKRAINE COUNCIL WITH A MANDATE TO DETERMINE THE CONDITIONS THAT MUST BE MET FOR UKRAINE TO JOIN NATO.

AND THE TIMELINE OF THAT, THE DEADLINE SHOULD BE THE NEXT NATO SUMMIT THAT WILL TAKE PLACE NEXT YEAR IN WASHINGTON, D.C. >> IT'S REALLY INTERESTING.

AGAIN I WANT TO PUT FORWARD WHAT PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY SAID TO ME WHEN I INTERVIEWED HIM A FEW MONTHS AGO, THAT THEY ARE FED UP OF, YOU KNOW, OF THE FEAR THAT THE OUTSIDE WORLD HAS BECAUSE THEY KNOW PUTIN AND THE RUSSIANS BETTER THAN ANYBODY ELSE.

THIS IS WHAT HE SAID TO ME.

>> Translator: I THINK THAT RUSSIA FEEDS ON THESE FEARS AND I THINK THIS IS A BIG MISTAKE OF THE LAST FEW DECADES.

RUSSIA FEELS IT HAS THE POWER.

THE MORE YOU GIVE IT, THE MORE IT FEELS YOUR FEAR.

IT LIVES BY IT.

>> SO, TO BOTH OF YOU THEN, THAT'S THE VIEW FROM THE INSIDE.

AND I KNOW YOU KNOW THIS BECAUSE YOU ADVISE THEM, ANDERS FOGH RASMUSSEN.

I MEAN, THE BIG FEAR FROM EVERYBODY IS, IF IT BECOMES A MEMBER OF NATO, THEN ARTICLE 5 MEANS THAT YOU ALL HAVE TO PROTECT IT, OR NOT.

OR NATO'S, YOU KNOW, KEY, YOU KNOW, THE HEART OF NATO DISINTEGRATES.

SO WHAT WOULD BE SO BAD ABOUT ACTUALLY COMMITTING TO PROTECT UKRAINE WITHIN A NATO FORMAT AS YOU'RE DOING OUTSIDE A NATO FORMAT?

AND WHAT WOULD BE BETTER THAN THAT?

>> I THINK THE PROBLEM WITH THE NATO FORMAT IS SIMPLY THAT THERE IS A VERY REAL RISK THAT EVEN IF THIS WAR ENDS, THERE WOULD BE A RECURRENCE, AND, THEREFORE, THE COMMITMENT THAT NATO MEMBERS WOULD MAKE TO DEFEND UKRAINE OR A PORTION OF UKRAINE IS QUITE -- WOULD BE A VERY REAL PROSPECT OF COMING DUE.

AND THEN WE WOULD BE IN A SITUATION THAT WE CAN SEE NO ONE ACTUALLY WANTS IN NATO COUNTRIES TO DIRECTLY FIGHT RUSSIA OVER UKRAINE EVEN NOW.

AND SO THIS COMMITMENT, RATHER THAN PROVIDING THE VERY STRONG SECURITY GUARANTEE THAT UKRAINIANS WOULD LIKE, WOULD SPECIFICALLY IN THE SPECIFIC CASE OF UKRAINE LACK SUFFICIENT CREDIBILITY FROM MOSCOW'S PERSPECTIVE.

MOSCOW WOULD LOOK AND SEE THAT SINCE 2014 WHEN RUSSIA IN FACT INVADED UKRAINE, EVERY NATO MEMBER DECLINED TO FIGHT RUSSIA OVER UKRAINE.

AND SO IT WOULD ACTUALLY HAVE OPPORTUNITY, IF UKRAINE WERE TO JOIN, TO FRACTURE THE NATO ALLIANCE AND WEAKEN ARLINGTON 5 ACROSS THE ENTIRE ALLIANCE IF IT TRIED TO TEST THAT COMMITMENT IN THE WEAKEST POINT.

SO IT'S JUST A BRIDGE TOO FAR.

I THINK I COMPLETELY AGREE ON THE FRAMEWORK OF THE KYIV SECURITY COMPACT TO CREATE A UKRAINE THAT TRULY IS ABLE TO DEFEND ITSELF AND DO SO CREDIBLY OVER THE LONG TERM.

>> SO ANDERS FOGH RASMUSSEN, I WANT TO READ YOU WHAT HENRY KISSINGER HAS SAID ON THE OCCASION OF HIS 100th BIRTHDAY.

HE DID NOT THINK -- HE THOUGHT LAKE STEPHEN THAT UKRAINE SHOULD NOT BE PART OF NATO.

HE SAYS HE HAS CHANGED HIS MIND NOW.

WE HAVE NOW ARMED UKRAINE TO A POINT WHERE IT WILL BE THE BEST ARMED COUNTRY AND WITH THE LEAST STRATEGICALLY EXPERIENCED LEADERSHIP IN EUROPE.

FOR THE SAFETY OF EUROPE, IT IS BETTER TO HAVE UKRAINE IN NATO.

SO YOUR COMMENT ON THAT, BUT ALSO THE FLIP SIDE OF WHAT STEPHEN SAID.

YOU KNOW, THE FEAR IS OF PROVOKING RUSSIA AND HAVING ANOTHER WAR AND ALL OF IS NOT OVER YET, BUT WE HAVE SEEN RUSSIA'S INCOMPETENCE OVER THE LAST YEAR.

ITS INABILITY TO CONVERT THIS TO A RAPID VICTORY.

I GUESS MY QUESTION IS, HAVING SEEN RUSSIA'S CAPABILITY, DOES THAT GIVE YOU MORE -- GIVE UKRAINE MORE, YOU KNOW, MORE KUDOS FOR ACTUALLY JOINING?

>> I SPOKE WITH HENRY KISSINGER SOME DAYS AGO AND I FULLY AGREE WITH HIS ARGUMENT FOR LETTING UKRAINE JOIN NATO.

THE ONLY THING PUTIN RESPECTS IS NATO'S ARTICLE 5.

THAT'S THE REASON WHY HE HASN'T ATTACKED ANY NATO COUNTRY YET.

HE RESPECTS THAT.

AND THAT'S WHY UKRAINE SHOULD JOIN NATO.

WE HAVE TO ENSURE A MORE PEACEFUL AND STABLE EUROPEAN CONTINENT.

TO THAT END, WE NEED UKRAINE AS A NATO MEMBER.

WE NEED THAT BECAUSE THAT WOULD FREE UP RESOURCES AND GIVE THE U.S. AND OTHERS MORE ROOM TO MANEUVER TO ADDRESS THE REAL LONG-TERM GEOPOLITICAL CHALLENGE.

NAMELY, CHINA AND THE INDO-PACIFIC.

THAT'S WHY WE NEED A NEW EUROPEAN SECURITY ARCHITECTURE WITH UKRAINE, FINLAND AND SWEDEN AS MEMBERS OF NATO.

STEPHEN WERTHEIM AND ANDERS FOGH RASMUSSEN, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>>> NEXT TO THE WORLD OF SPORTS AND SPECIFICALLY HOW TO FINALLY LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD FOR FEMALE ATHLETES.

HERE IN THE UK A BLOCKBUSTER REPORT FOUND THAT ENGLISH CRICKET ONE OF THE COUNTRY'S MOST POPULAR SPORTS IS BLIGHTED BY WIDESPREAD RACISM AND SEXISM.

PERHAPS NO OTHER ATHLETE HAS WORKED HARDER FOR SPORTS EQUALITY THAN TENNIS LEGEND BILLIE JEAN KING.

ON THE COURT HER ACHIEVEMENTS ARE COUNTED IN RECORD-BUSTING TITLES.

OFF THE COURT, THEY WERE IMMEASURABLE.

CHIEF AMONG THEM, THE FOUNDING OF THE WT A-50 YEARS AGO THIS MONTH.

IT ESTABLISHED A PROFESSIONAL WOMEN'S TOUR AND WAS WATERSHED MOMENT FOR WOMEN'S RIGHTS.

I SAT DOWN WITH BILLIE JEAN KING AT THE GLOUCESTER HOTEL HERE IN LONDON, THE VERY PLACE SHE MADE IT HAPPEN ON THE EVE OF WIMBLEDON 50 YEARS AGO.

>> WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

>> WE HAVE TALKED MANY TIMES ABOUT SIGNIFICANT MILESTONES IN YOUR CAREER AND THE BIGGER GAME.

THIS NOW MARKS 50 YEARS SINCE YOU CREATED I GUESS WHAT ORDINARY PEOPLE WOULD SAY IS THE FIRST EVER FEMALE TENNIS PLAYERS UNION.

HOW DID YOU DO IT AND WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES TO MAKE?

>> WOW!

HOW DID WE DO IT?

HOW LONG DO WE HAVE?

I TRIED TO GET THE MEN AND WOMEN TOGETHER IN THE LATE '80s OF THE MEN SAID NO.

THEN WE HAVE TO GET TOGETHER.

THE WOMEN.

SO BASICALLY WE ALL HELPED EACH OTHER.

LIKE I WOULD ASK ROSIE CASALS OR BETTY STOVE OR FRANCOISE DURR TO SAY WHO DO YOU HAVE INFLUENCE OVER?

YOU HAVE TO DELIVER TWO PEOPLE TO THIS MEETING WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO SEE IF WE CAN HAVE THIS ASSOCIATION OR UNION.

AND IT WAS REALLY HECTIC BECAUSE PLAYERS ARE ALWAYS PRACTICING, IT'S HARD TO GET PLAYERS TOGETHER.

SO THIS IS ON A THURSDAY IN 1973 BEFORE WIMBLEDON STARTED ON A MONDAY.

WE GOT 60 PLUS PEOPLE IN THE ROOM HERE AT THE GLOUCESTER.

AND AT THE END OF IT, WELL, LET'S TALK ABOUT BEFORE THE END OF IT.

I HAD PETTY STOVE.

>> WHO WAS A VERY LARGE DUTCH WOMAN.

>> LARGE, STRONG.

AND I SAID, BETTY, COME OVER HERE.

I AM LAUGHING BECAUSE I AM LOOKING UP AT HER.

I SAID, YOU HAVE TO STAND AT THE DOOR AND DON'T LET ONE PLAYER OUT UNTIL WE EITHER HAVE OUR UNION OR ASSOCIATION OR WE DON'T.

BUT DON'T LET ANYBODY OUT UNTIL WE VOTE.

SHE LOOKS DOWN AT ME AND SHE STARTS LAUGHING.

SHE SAYS, DON'T WORRY.

SHE PUT HER ARMS ACROSS LIKE THIS AND SAID, DON'T YOU COME OUT.

WE WERE AT THE PODIUM, MICROPHONE.

I WAS LIKE, I SAID, PLEASE GOD, LET THIS HAPPEN.

AND SO I SAID TO THEM, THIS IS A MOMENT OF TRUTH.

AND WE HAVE TO DO THIS.

WE HAVE TO DO IT TODAY.

WE HAVE TO BE TOGETHER.

WE HAVE HAD TWO TOURS.

WE HAVE BEEN SPLIT UP.

THAT'S NO GOOD.

WE HAVE TO ALWAYS MAKE SURE THAT AT LEAST AT THE MINIMUM THE TOP PLAYERS ARE ALWAYS TOGETHER TO PROVIDE THE BEST ENTERTAINMENT IN PERFORMANCE TO OUR FANS.

WE OWE IT TO THEM.

>> AND THEY WROTE IT ON THE FIRST ROUND?

>> YES.

EVERYONE VOTED YES.

>> WHAT DID IT PHYSICALLY DO?

HOW IT DID IT HELP YOU ALL IN THE IMMEDIATE?

WHAT DID IT DO?

>> IT GAVE US ONE VOICE AND POWER.

>> POWER TO NEGOTIATE?

FOR EQUAL PAY?

>> THAT WAS, OBVIOUSLY, FOR ME PERSONALLY AT THE TOP.

BUT WE HAD TO ARGUE FOR OTHER THINGS.

WE GOT VERY LITTLE MONEY.

BY '73 WE ARE STARTING TO GET PRIZE MONEY.

I DID VERY WELL BECAUSE I WAS WINNING.

I WAS KIND OF THE TOP OF MY CAREER BUT A LOT -- MOST PEOPLE WERE NOT.

AND WE REALLY WANTED TO ADD TOURNAMENTS AT LOWER LEVELS TO GIVE MORE AND MORE WOMEN A CHANCE TO PLAY AND MAKE MONEY.

AND THE THREE THINGS WHY WE HAD THIS ASSOCIATION THAT ANY GIRL BORN IN THIS WORLD IF SHE WERE GOOD ENOUGH WOULD HAVE A PLACE TO COMPETE.

NUMBER TWO, TO BE APPRECIATED FOR OUR ACCOMPLISHMENTS, NOT ONLY OUR LOOKS.

AND NUMBER THREE, MOST IMPORTANTLY, TO BE ABLE TO MAKE A LIVING PLAYING THE SPORT THAT WE LOVED AND HAD A PASSION TO PLAY.

AND WE WANTED IT FOR OTHERS.

WHAT THIS DID WAS PROVIDED A PLATFORM FOR EVERY SINGLE PROFESSIONAL WOMAN TENNIS PLAYER.

A PLATFORM FOR HER TO BE A LEADER, BE EFFECTIVE IN HER COMMUNITY WHEREVER SHE LIVED.

COULD BE A VILLAGE.

IT COULD BE A TOWN.

IT COULD BE A COUNTRY.

IT COULD BE A CONTINENT.

>> HAD YEAR HAPPENED TO BE, SO THE 1973 WAS MARKING THE 50th ANNIVERSARY OF THE WTA AND WHAT YOU DID.

IT ALSO HAPPENED TO BE THE YEAR YOU WON A TRIPLE CROWN AT WIMBELDON.

>> WOW.

>> FOR THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW, SINGLES, DOUBLES AND MIXED DOUBLES.

>> DOESN'T HAPPEN VERY OFTEN.

>> ALMOST EVER.

YOU WERE THE LAST TO WIN AT WIMBLEDON THAT TRIPLE CROWN.

>> TODAY MOST PLAYERS DON'T PLAY THREE EVENTS.

I LOVE TENNIS.

I WAS THE FIRST TO ARRIVE, THE LAST TO LEAVE.

IF I COULD BE ON THE COURT HITTING A PAUL AND I LOVED DOUBLES MORE THAN SINGLES.

I PLAY MIXED DOUBLES WITH OWEN DAVIDSON, DOUBLES WITH ROSIE CASALS, AND OH, YEAH, THE SINGLES.

>> BUT MY POINT IS SHALL DRNLTS I THINK IT WAS CHRIS EVERT.

>> MY POINT IS THAT HERE YOU ARE WINNING.

I MEAN, I GUESS THAT TAKES A LOT OF EFFORT TO PLAY ALL THOSE MATCHES AND TO DOING ALL THIS STUFF OFF STAGE.

ALL THIS ACTIVISM.

HOW DID YOU -- I MEAN, HOW DOES THAT WORK?

HOW CAN YOU DO THAT?

MENTALLY, IFLELY?

>> I MADE A DECISION WHEN I WAS 12 YEARS OLD, I WOULD FIGHT FOR EQUALITY THE REST OF OF MY LIFE.

AND I MADE A VERY CONSCIOUS DECISION THAT I WOULDN'T WIN AS MANY TITLES AS A PLAYER IF I WERE GOING TO DO THIS.

>> DID YOU?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THAT WAS SO OBVIOUS.

I WOULD GO TO SPONSOR -- SEE A SPONSOR NEW YORK IN THE MORNING AND THEN TAKE A TRAIN TO PHILADELPHIA AND PLAY IN THE FINALS IN PHILADELPHIA.

THAT IS NOT THE WAY TO WIN TITLES.

I AM SURE I DIDN'T WIN THAT ONE.

I THINK I LOST TO CHRISSY EVERETT.

>> AT.

TIME YOU THE RECORD NUMBER OF TITLES AND WINS.

DO YOU REGRET RETIRING WHEN YOU DID?

>> THE FIRST TIME, ABSOLUTELY.

IN '75, I JUST WON WIMBLEDON AND ANNOUNCED MY RETIREMENT BECAUSE I WAS LISTENING TOO MUCH TO OTHERS AND NOT MY OWN HEART AND SOUL.

THEY SAID YOU SHOULD GO OUT ON TOP.

ATHLETES HEAR THIS ALL THE TIME.

GO OUT ON TOP.

THAT'S THE WAY TO GO.

WELL, I WAS -- I COULD HAVE WON, ACTUALLY, SOME MORE SINGLES AS WELL BECAUSE I WAS PRACTICING WITH CHRISSY EVERITT AND MARTINA AND A HALF RA LATOVA.

THEY ARE LIKE, YOU'RE RIDICULOUS.

SO I PROBABLY SHOULD HAVE PLAYED AT LEAST 1-2 MORE YEARS OF SINGLES.

BUT I PLAYED DOUBLES AND THEN SINGLES AS WELL.

BUT -- >> AND GOT MORE TIMES WHEN YOU CAME BACK?

>> NOT IN SINGLES.

I CAME BACK IN '77, '78.

IN '76 I DEFINITELY COULD HAVE WON MORE.

>> HOW DIFFICULT IS IT FOR WOMEN ON THE TOUR?

I AM ASKING BECAUSE, OBVIOUSLY, YOU A LOAD OF ISSUES.

EVERYTHING.

I MEAN, EVEN EATING DISORDERS AND THE WHOLE THING.

YOU HAD A LOT OF PRESSURE ON YOU AS WELL.

AND TODAY WE'RE HEARING AND SEEING AND LISTENING TO MORE AND MORE FEMALE PLAYERS.

WE DON'T HEAR IT FROM THE MALE PLAYERS.

>> THE MEN DON'T SPEAK UP BECAUSE THE MEDIA DON'T ASK THEM ENOUGH, OKAY?

WOMEN ARE ALWAYS ASKED A LOT MORE PERSONAL QUESTIONS THAN THE MEN.

WHICH GETS IRRITATING BECAUSE 85% OF THE MEN ARE IN COMMUNICATIONS AND MEDIA.

THEY TEND TO HOLD BACK FOR THE GUIDES.

BECAUSE THEY FEEL IT'S ABOUT HOW THEY FEEL AS A MALE.

>> YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THE MALE JOURNALISTS?

>> ABSOLUTELY, MALE JOURNALISTS LOW EFFECT -- THEY DON'T MEAN TO -- >> IT'S A NATIONAL BIAS?

>> RIGHT, THE WAY WE ARE SOCIALIZED.

WE ARE ALWAYS ASKED ABOUT SEXUALITY, ALL OUR PERSONAL STUFF.

THE MEN NEVER WERE.

BUT I WOULD ALSO LIKE MEN, IF THEY ARE GAY, TO COME OUT.

I WISHED, YOU KNOW, WOULD HAVE THE COURAGE TO DO THAT.

DO YOU KNOW HOW HARD IT IS FOR THINK OF THE LOCKER ROOM.

>> SPORTS NOW WHERE MEN ARE COMING OUT.

BUT -- >> DO YOU THINK TENNIS -- >> NOT YET, OBVIOUSLY.

>> HELLO?

>> DO YOU THINK -- ARE YOU SAYING THERE ARE?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

I WOULD THINK ONE OR TWO MUST BE.

I DON'T KNOW THOUGH.

I HAVE NO IDEA.

>> BUT DO YOU THINK -- DO YOU KNOW THAT MALE TENNIS PLAYERS HAVE THE KIND OF MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES THAT WE HAVE HEARD FROM NAOMI TO OSAKA AND -- >> ABSOLUTELY.

ABSOLUTELY.

>> BUT THEY DON'T TALK ABOUT IT?

>> KYRGIOS TALKED ABOUT IT.

BUT NOW IT'S OKAY TO TALK ABOUT THESE THINGS.

AND THAT'S WONDERFUL.

THAT'S FANTASTIC.

I MEAN, DURING THE TOUR I WAS TOLD BY SPONSORS IF I SAID ANYTHING BECAUSE I WAS GOING THROUGH -- I COULDN'T FIGURE OUT WHO I WAS.

THEY SAID IF YOU SAY ANYTHING ABOUT YOUR CONFUSION OR WHAT'S GOING ON IN YOUR HEART OR SOUL THAT WE WILL NOT HAVE A TOUR.

NOW, WHEN I AM GIVEN THAT TYPE OF INFORMATION, DO YOU THINK I AM GOING TO SAY ANYTHING?

OF COURSE I AM NOT.

WE HAVE THE TOUR.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT ME.

THIS IS ABOUT EVERYBODY.

SO, NO.

>> SO LAST WEEK EMMA RAD CANOE, YOU AWARDED HER THE TROPHY AT THE U.S. OPEN.

SHE WAS ONLY 18.

SHE STRUGGLED TO PERFORM.

SHE HAS HAD INJURIES AND NOW DESCRIBED THE TOUR AS COMPLETELY BRUTAL.

SHE TOLD "THE SUNDAY TIMES" I REALIZED IN THE PAST TWO YEARS THE TOUR AND EVERYTHING THAT COMES WITH IT IS NOT VERY NICE, TRUSTING OR SAVE SPACE.

YOU HAVE TO BE ON GUARD BECAUSE THERE ARE A LOT OF SHARKS OUT THERE.

IT HAS BEEN REALLY HARD.

IT IS A LOT HARDER WHEN YOU ARE MAKING MISTAKES IN FRONT OF EVERYONE AND EVERYONE HAS SOMETHING TO SAY ABOUT IT.

WHAT'S YOUR REACTION TO THAT?

I MEAN, DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE BRUTAL TOUR?

>> BEING A PRO ATHLETE, IT'S HARD.

THE WTA HAS BEEN FANTASTIC WITH MENTAL HEALTH FOR YEARS.

BUT PEOPLE WOULD SAY, WHY AREN'T YOU DOING ANYTHING?

WE HAVE TO KEEP IT PRIVATE.

THIS IS ABOUT PRIVATE ISSUES WITH EACH PLAYER.

I USED TO TALK TO KATHLEEN, THE HEAD OF HEALTH SERVICES, AD NAUSEAM WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN IN THE FUTURE, HOW TO MAKE IT BETTER, HELP WITH THIS, WE HAVE PSYCHOLOGISTS.

BELIEVE ME.

SINCE THE '80s AND '90s THE WT AS HAS BEEN ON THIS:WE HAVE PSYCHOLOGISTS.

WHATEVER YOU NEED, OKAY?

THEY ARE THERE.

BUT YOU HAVE GOT TO KEEP IT PRIVATE.

>> WHY?

>> BECAUSE WHATEVER THE PERSON WANTS.

>> YOU HAVE TO KEEP PRIVATE?

>> NO, THE WTA DOES.

NO, I ENCOURAGE IT.

I MEAN, I WENT TO AN EATING DISORDER PLACE.

I HAVE A PSYCHOLOGIST.

I TOTALLY BELIEVE IN ALL OF THIS.

NO.

BUT I JUST WANT EVERYBODY TO KNOW THAT THE WTA HAS BEEN AWARE OF IT.

>> WHY DOES SOMEBODY LIKE EMMA SAY IT'S BRUTAL OR NAOMI OSAKA?

IT GOES TO THE HARANGUING THEY GET IN THE PRESS ROOM AFTERWARDS.

>> IS THAT WHAT THEY SAY?

>> I HAVE HEARD THAT.

>> WHAT DO THEY EXPECT?

I WISH -- OKAY.

IT IS GOING TO BE DIFFICULT.

BUT YOU ARE CHOSEN TO BE A PROFESSIONAL ATHLETE.

WITH THAT GOES CERTAIN THINGS THAT YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT.

IT'S COMPETITIVE.

YOU HAVE TO ASK FOR HELP IF YOU NEED IT.

SEE, I DON'T THINK A LOT OF ATHLETES -- YOU KNOW, WE ARE USED TO -- YOU KNOW, STIFF UPPER LIP, BE TOUGH.

NO.

IT'S ON THE COURT MAYBE.

BUT OFF THE COURT, YOU NEED HELP, ASK FOR WHAT YOU WANT AND NEED.

GIRLS ARE SOCIALIZED NOT TO DO THAT.

HAVE YOU EVER NOTICED THAT GIRLS HAVE A HARD TIME TO ASK FOR WHAT THEY WANT?

AND WHAT THEY NEED.

AND THEY NEED TO STEP UP AND ASK FOR IT.

>> I WONDER IF YOU HAVE EMPATHY -- >> TOTALLY.

>> YOU REMEMBER IN THE EARLY DAYS IN THE '70s AND '60s YOU WERE LIKE STORMING AROUND THE COURT, SOMETIMES BASHING YOUR RACKET, YOU KNOW, YOU WERE VERY, VERY VOLATILE.

>> FOR THEN.

FOR NOW I WOULD BE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

I MEAN, I HELD -- >> WHAT WAS GOING ON?

>> WHAT WAS GOING ON?

I HATE LOSING.

I HATE LOSING.

WE HAVE A LOT OF THINGS GOING ON OFF THE COURT.

I HAVE A LOT OF MEETINGS WHEN I GET OFF THE COURT.

I HAVE TO TALK TO PLAYERS OR SPONSORS OR WHATEVER.

AND SO I HAVE THAT IN MY HEAD.

THAT WAS A PRIVILEGE TO HAVE THAT.

OKAY?

THAT WASN'T -- AND I AM VERY INTENSE.

I WOULDN'T SAY -- I WOULD SAY I AM A LOT OF A HOTHEAD.

BUT NOW YOU ARE ALLOWED TO BE, WHICH IS GREAT.

I WOULD LOVE TO BE A PLAYER TODAY.

I WOULD THRIVE ON TODAY'S SITUATION.

FIRST OF ALL, YOU CAN BE HONEST WITH THE MEDIA.

I THINK WE SHOULD ALWAYS TALK TO THE MEDIA, BY THE WAY.

I THINK WHEN WE DON'T, IT'S A MISTAKE BECAUSE AS A PROFESSIONAL ATHLETE THAT'S PART OF THE TERRITORY.

WHEN YOU SIT DOWN AND YOU ASK YOURSELF DO I WANT TO BE A PRO ATHLETE, PRO TENNIS PLAYER, THIS IS WHAT GOES WITH IT.

DO YOU WANT TO DEAL WITH IT OR NOT?

AND I KNOW IT'S TOUGH, BUT I THINK IT'S A PRIVILEGE.

IT'S A PRIVILEGE TO HAVE MEDIA -- IT'S A PRIVILEGE TO TALK TO YOU.

BUT YOU DON'T EVEN CARE ABOUT WHAT I THINK OR WHAT WTA -- >> NOT WHEN YOU COME OUT OF A LOSING MATCH AND YOU ARE SWEATING AND CRYING -- >> I THROW MY RACKETS IN THE LOCKER ROOM.

GIVE ME FIVE.

WALK IN AND DO MY PRESS CONFERENCE BECAUSE THEY TOLD OUR STORY.

WITHOUT THE MEDIA -- WE DIDN'T HAVE SOCIAL MEDIA.

SO WE WERE -- IF THE MEDIA DIDN'T TELL OUR STORIES, THEN WE HAD NOTHING.

>> IT MUST BE MUCH TOUGHER NOW WITH SOCIAL MEDIA BECAUSE IT'S TROLLING AND MEAN AND HORRIBLE STUFF.

>> YOU HAVE TO NOT TAKE THINGS PERSONALLY.

>> NOT LOOK AT.

OKAY.

>> I DON'T LOOK AT IT.

BUT I DON'T TAKE THINGS PERSONALLY.

>> SO YOU GUYS WERE THE ROCK STARS OF THE TIME.

I MEAN, YOU ALL, CHRISSY, JIMMY CONNORS, THE RELATIONSHIP, THE ROMANCE, BEYOND -- >> YEAH.

>> ALL THESE TEEN ANY BOPPERS STORY.

THE HALLOWED GRASS COURTS.

UNBELIEVABLE STUFF.

>> I KNOW, THAT'S BECAUSE WE HAD THE MEDIA AND IT WAS PROFESSIONAL.

WEIGH WE TANTED TO -- >> DID YOU FEEL LIKE A ROCK STAR.

>> I WANTED TO BE, ABSOLUTELY.

I WANTED A PLATFORM.

WE ARE ENTERTAINERS.

MY JOB FROM I -- ATHLETES GET CONFUSED.

TO ME I AM THERE FOR THE AUDIENCE, TO ENTERTAIN THEM, MAKE HAPPY, GO HOME, PICK UP TENNIS FOR THE FIRST TIME OR COME BACK AND BUY TICKET, WHATEVER.

I WANT GET THEM HOOKED ON TENNIS.

IT'S A GREAT SPORT.

THE HEALTHIEST SPORT IN THE WORLD, BY THE WAY, MAYO CLINIC.

WHAT'S NOT GOOD TO GET PEOPLE TO DO THIS, RIGHT?

MOST ATHLETES AND ENTERTAINERS THINK THE AUDIENCE IS THERE FOR THEM.

NO.

OUR JOB IS WE ARE THERE FOR THEM.

THAT'S MY JOB.

THERE IS ONLY ONE PERSON SITTING IN THE STANDS, IF NO ONE IS SITTING THE STANDS, IT'S BEING -- ANYONE'S WATCHING ON TELEVISION OR WHATEVER ELSE WE HAVE TODAY, THAT'S MY JOB, TO ME.

>> LAST YEAR PAM SHRIVER REALLY WENT PUBLIC WITH AN ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIP THAT SHE HAD ON THE TOUR.

LET ME GET THIS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

SHE WAS 17.

HER COACH WAS 50 AND SHE HAD A SEXUAL RELATIONSHIP.

SHE SAYS SHE NOW UNDERSTANDS IT WAS A FIVE-YEAR-LONG AFFAIR THAT WAS SEXUALLY AND EMOTIONALLY ABUSIVE.

IS THAT UNUSUAL?

WAS SHE JUST ONE PERSON WHO WAS PREYED ON BY AN OLDER PERSON?

>> ABUSE IS SOMETHING WE TALK ABOUT ALL THE TIME AND TRY TO PREVENT.

AND REACH OUT TO THE PLAYERS.

I MEAN, I HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN A COUPLE OF SITUATIONS MYSELF.

SO TO I KNOW THIS FOR A FACT THAT THERE IS ALL KINDS OF SUPPORT FOR A PLAYER, BUT THEY ALSO HAVE TO DO WHATEVER IS -- THEY NEED TO DO TO GET OUT OF THE SITUATION.

SOME PLAYERS DO NOT HAVE THE WHEREWITHAL TO GET OUT OF IT, EMOTIONALLY, MENTALLY, WHATEVER, AND OTHER PLAYERS DON'T WANT TO GET OUT.

THEY WANT TO STAY WHERE THEY ARE.

THEY DON'T CARE.

THEY DON'T SEE IT.

MAYBE IT'S ABUSE.

THE REST OF THE WORLD DOES OR WHOEVER IS INVOLVED.

BUT SOMETIMES THEY WILL CHANGE IN TIME.

BUT PAM NOW BEING OLDER HAS PERSPECTIVE AND THAT'S THE GREAT THING ABOUT BEING OLDER IS YOU HAVE PERSPECTIVE.

NOW THREE REALIZES THAT HER COACH ABUSED HER AT THE TIME SHE WAS IN IT, SHE WAS PROBABLY REALLY HAPPY MAYBE OR UNHAPPY.

IT'S ABUSE NO MATTER HOW YOU TAKE IT.

WHEN YOU HAVE THE AUTHORITY -- >> WHEN YOU SAY YOU WERE INVOLVED IN TWO ISSUES, YOURSELF OR -- >> NO, PLAYER.

I HAVE BEEN INVOLVED WITH A COUPLE OF PLAYERS I HAVE BEEN BROUGHT IN BY, LIKE, I HAVE BEEN BROUGHT IN BY GOVERNING BODIES.

IT'S HARD.

I MEAN, I KNOW I WAS HELPING ONE PLAYER AND SHE DID NOT CHANGE.

SHE DECIDED NOT TO DO ANYTHING WHAT WAS GOING ON.

>> THE MOST FAMOUS ONE IS THE BROUHAHA OVER WHAT HAPPENED WITH PENG SHUAI.

CHINESE PLAYER.

WE HAVE NOT SEEN HIDE NOR HAIR OF HER SINCE SHE MADE HER ALLEGATIONS AND I GUESS REMOVED FROM THE CHINESE AUTHORITIES FROM PUBLIC LIFE.

WTA SAID THEY HAD NO LONGER GO CHINA NOW THEY ARE GOING BACK.

>> THEY TRIED THE BEST THEY COULD IN WHAT THEY WERE DOING AND NOTHING WORKED FROM WHAT I CAN UNDERSTAND.

YOU PROBABLY HAVE TO ASK THEM.

BUT I THINK WE SHOULD GO BACK TO CHINA.

I AM VERY BIG PERSONALLY, I AM BIG ON GOING TO PLACES BECAUSE I THINK YOU HAVE TO ENGAGE TO CHANGE.

>> IT'S ALSO ABOUT MONEY.

YOU NEED THE MONEY.

>> OF COURSE IT'S ABOUT MONEY.

AND I AM NOT THE WTA NOW, SO I DON'T KNOW.

BUT FROM WHAT I CAN GATHER, THEY ARE GOING TO GO BACK TO CHINA.

I THINK THEY SHOULD.

I AM VERY BIG ON ENGAGEMENT.

I THINK IT'S GOOD.

AND THE MONEY IS FANTASTIC, WHICH IS GREAT.

BUT I AM JUST TALKING ABOUT CULTURALLY NOW AND GETTING ALONG.

I AM VERY BIG ON INCLUSION.

I END TO ERR ON SIDE OF INFLUENCE, ALWAYS TRY TO ENGAGEMENT I THINK YOU CAN'T CHANGE YOURSELF OR OTHERS UNLESS THERE IS ENGAGEMENT OF DISCUSSION AND BEING IN -- AND IT'S IMPORTANT TO GO TO PEOPLE, NOT TO ALWAYS HAVE PEOPLE COME TO YOU.

I MEAN, I AM VERY BIG ON SHOWING UP.

>> 50 YEARS ON, ALL THESE MILESTONES, ALL THESE CELEBRATIONS.

HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT YOURSELF AND IS THERE STILL STUFF TO DO?

>> THERE IS TONS TO DO.

I AM NOT DONE YET.

THAT'S FOR SURE.

BUT I KNOW TIME IS RUNNING OUT AND I DON'T LIKE IT BECAUSE I WANT TO DO MORE AND MORE AND MORE.

I DON'T HAVE AS MUCH ENERGY.

I HAVE A LOT.

I AM FORTUNATE TO HAVE THAT.

BUT IT IS HARD.

BUT I AM NOT DONE YET.

>> BILLIE JEAN KING, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED.

>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

>> AND THE WIMBLEDON CHAMPIONSHIPS BEGIN NON.

>>> NEXT TO RACIAL EQUALITY AND CONVERSATION THAT MANY BLACK PARENTS ALL ACROSS HAVE WITH THEIR CHILDREN PREPARING THEM TO RECOGNIZE AND REDUCE THE RISKS OF VIOLENCE, INCLUDING AT THE HANDS OF DISCRIMINATORY POLICING.

PULITZER PRIZE-WINNING CARTOONIST DARRIN BELL HAS DRAWN A GRAPHIC MEMOIR ABOUT HOW "THE TALK" IMPACTED HIS LIFE.

HE IS JOINING MICHEL MARTIN TO SHARE HIS STORY.

>> THANKS.

DARRIN BELL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> PEOPLE MAY KNOW YOU FROM YOUR STRIP, KANDERVILLE, WHICH RUNS SYNDICATED ALL OVER THE COUNTRY.

WHAT MADE THIS THE TIME TO WRITE A GRAPHIC NOVEL?

>> WELL, THIS IS NOT ACTUALLY THE GRAPHIC NOVEL THAT I SOLD TO THE PUBLISHER OF I SOLD A DIFFERENT MEMOIR ABOUT MY TIME AS MY GRANDFATHER'S CARETAKER TOWARDS THE END OF HIS LIFE.

BUT AS I WAS WORKING ON THE FIRST CHAPTERS, GEORGE FLOYD WAS MURDERED.

AND THE SUMMER OF PROTESTS STARTED.

AND MY EDITOR, WE HAD A CONVERSATION AND WE DECIDED WE SHOULD PROBABLY PUT THAT BOOK ON THE BACK BURNER AND DO ANOTHER BOOK THAT SPOKE TO WHAT WAS >> SO I WOULD SAY "THE TALK" FEELS DIFFERENT TO ME THOUGH IN TONE.

I MEAN, CERTAINLY STYLISTICALLY, ARTISTICALLY IN ALIGNMENT WITH YOUR OTHER WORK.

IT DOESN'T GO FOR FUNNY.

IN THE WAKE OF NOT JUST GEORGE FLOYD, I WANT TO SAY TRAYVON MARTIN, I WANT TO SAY TIM EAR RICE, HOW MANY EXAMPLES OF BLACK BOYS AND MEN EXPERIENCING VIOLENCE EITHER THROUGH VIGILANTEISM OR POLICE VIOLENCE OR WHAT WAS YOUR CONCEPT OF THE -- OF EXPRESSING IDEAS OF "THE TALK" IN THIS WAY?

>> IT'S FRAMED WITH THE FIN ONLY NONOF POLICE VIOLENCE.

BUT "THE TALK" IS NOT JUST ABOUT THAT.

"THE TALK" IS ABOUT HOW RACISM AND DISCRIMINATION COMES AT YOU FROM DIFFERENT PLACES, FROM UNEXPECTED PLACES, AND IT COMES AT YOU DIFFERENTLY AT DIFFERENT POINTS IN YOUR LIFE.

WHEN YOU'RE A KID IT MIGHT BE A KID TELLING YOU HAVE BIG UGLY LIP OR WITH YOU'RE OLDER IT MIGHT BE A HOME APPRAISER VALUING YOUR $600,000 HOUSE FOR 250,000.

AND SO "THE TALK," THE BOOK TAKES US THROUGH ABOUT 40 YEARS OF HISTORY, 40 YEARS OF PERSONAL GROWTH.

THERE IS SOME LOVE STORIES IN IT.

THERE IS STORIES OF FRIENDSHIP.

IT'S A COMING-OF-AGE STORY.

IT'S ALSO AN EXAMINATION OF HOW YOU ARE CONTINUALLY BUFFETED BY THESE RUDE INTERRUPTIONS, THESE RUDE RACIST INTERRUPTIONS.

AND YOU HAVE TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO DEAL WITH IT.

YOU CAN EITHER LET IT BEAT YOU OR YOU COULD LET IT HELP YOU FIND YOUR VOICE, FIND WHO YOU ARE.

AND DESPITE WHAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE TELLING YOU ARE.

>> I'LL START WITH ONE OF THE FIRST EXPERIENCES IN BOOK THAT YOU TALK ABOUT IN THE BOOK IS A CONFRONTATION WHEN YOU ARE PLAYING WITH A TOY WATER GUN AND YOU ARE JUST A LITTLE GUY.

YOU KNOW, 6 YEARS OLD.

HE -- WOULD YOU TALK ABOUT THAT?

I ASSUME THAT REALLY HAPPENED?

>> DID.

IT DID.

IT HAPPENED WHEN I WAS 6.

I SAW SOME LITTLE KIDS IN PARK PLAYING WITH WATER GUNS.

REALISTIC LOOKING.

I THINK THEY WERE -- THEY LOOKED LIKE REVOLVERS.

I ASKED MY MOM TO GET ME A GUN AND SHE TOLD ME I COULDN'T HAVE ONE.

BUT THE NEXT DAY SHE SAW HOW CRUSHED I WAS BY THAT, SO SHE BOUGHT ME WATER GUN THAT WAS BRIGHT GREEN AND TRANSPARENT AND SHE GAVE ME THE TALK.

WHICH DIDN'T MAKE ANY SENSE TO ME.

SHE TOLD ME THE GUN WAS GOING TO KEEP ME ALIVE I THOUGHT THIS WAS PARANOIA.

AS SOON AS I COULD SHALL WHEN SHE WASN'T LOOKING I SNUCK OUT AND I WENT ALL OVER THE NEIGHBORHOOD SHOOTING EVERYTHING I COULD SEE.

STOP SIGNS.

BENCHES.

PRO TENDING THAT THERM STORMTROOPERS AND I WAS LUKE SKYWALKER ESCAPING THE DEATH STAR.

I BENT DOWN TO RELOAD IT AND I HEARD SOMEONE SAY DROP THE WEAPON.

AND I LOOKED UP AND IT WAS A POLICE OFFICER.

AND FOR A SPLIT SECOND I THOUGHT HE WAS PLAYING WITH ME.

BUT THE LOOK ON HIS FACE TOLD ME THIS WAS SERIOUS.

AND I JUST FROZE.

AND I GOT DOWN ON THE GROUND AND I CLOSED MY EYES AND WISHED HE WOULD GO AWAY.

EVENTUALLY, HE DID AFTER HE WAS DONE BARKING ORDERS AT ME.

AND I CARRIED SO MUCH SHAME FROM THAT INTERACTION FOR YEARS.

I DIDN'T TELL ANYBODY.

UNTIL I WAS MUCH -- UNTIL I WAS OLDER.

AND I FELT LIKE I HAD BROUGHT THAT ON MYSELF.

FIRST OF ALL, BECAUSE I IGNORED MY MOM.

I DIDN'T BELIEVE HER.

AND SECOND OF ALL, I THOUGHT I MUST HAVE BEEN ACTING LIKE A CRIMINAL.

I'M, YOU KNOW, I THOUGHT I PROVOKED THAT POLICE OFFICER.

AND IF ONLY I COULD ACT MORE RESPECTABLE AND PLAY BY ALL THE RESULTS, NOTHING BAD WILL HAPPEN TO ME.

AND I HELD ON TO THAT RESPECTABILITY POLITICS FOR ANOTHER DECADE OR SO UNTIL I -- UNTIL ANOTHER RUDE INTERRUPTION SHOWED ME THAT NO MATTER HOW GOOD I DO, NO MATTER HOW WELL BEHAVED, HOW ACCOMPLISHED, HOW AMBITIOUS I AM, SOMEONE STILL IS GOING TO COME ALONG AND SAY DOESN'T MATTER HOW YOU SEE YOURSELF.

THIS IS HOW I SEE YOU.

>> WHY DO YOU THINK YOU DIDN'T TELL ANYBODY FOR SO LONG?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU'RE 6, YOU DON'T REALIZE HOW SMALL YOU ARE.

I THOUGHT I SHOULD HAVE DONE SOMETHING.

I THOUGHT I SHOULD HAVE STOOD UP TO THIS POLICE OFFICER.

YOU KNOW, I WAS ASHAMED THAT I CRIED.

I WAS ASHAMED THAT I FROZE.

YOU KNOW, I THOUGHT I WAS TEN FEET TALL AND, YOU KNOW, I COULD HAVE -- I COULD HAVE TALKED SOME SENSE INTO HIM AT LEAST, BUT I DIDN'T EVEN TRY THAT.

SO IT WAS JUST AN OVERWHELMING SENSE OF SHAME.

>> THIS IS YEARS BEFORE TAMIR RICE, THE STORY FOR PEOPLE WHO I HOPE REMEMBER WAS A 12-YEAR-OLD PLAYING WITH A TOY GUN, THIS WAS IN OHIO, IN 2014, AND WAS SHOT TO DEATH IN FRONT OF HIS 14-YEAR-OLD SISTER.

THE OTHER THING THAT STRIKES ME THAT YOUR MOM IS WHITE, YOUR DAD IS AFRICAN AMERICAN.

YOUR MOM IS THE ONE WHO IS HAVING THE TALK WITH YOU.

>> RIGHT.

>> CAN YOU SAY MORE ABOUT THAT?

>> MY FATHER REFUSED -- HE REFUSED TO TALK ABOUT ANTI-BLACK RACISM, ESPECIALLY RACISM COMING FROM WHITE PEOPLE.

I THINK WHAT HAPPENED WAS I WAS A CHILD AND HE HAD HIS EXPERIENCES.

HE HAD SEEN HIS FATHER'S EXPERIENCES.

AND HE DIDN'T -- I DON'T THINK HE WANTED THE WORLD TO BE THE SAME FOR ME, AND I THINK HE WAS THE KIND OF PERSON WHO THOUGHT THAT YOU COULD CREATE YOUR OWN REALITY, THAT IF YOU PRETEND IT'S NOT HAPPENING, THEN IT CAN'T HURT YOU.

AND MY MOTHER, ON THE OTHER HAND, DID NOT HAVE THAT PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, SO SHE -- IT WAS MORE ACADEMIC FOR HER.

SHE WAS A LITTLE BIT REMOVED FROM IT.

SO I DON'T THINK SHE -- I DON'T THINK SHE HAD SAME -- THE SAME FEARS THAT MY FATHER HAD.

MY MOM DIDN'T KNOW HOW IT WOULD MAKE ME FEEL.

SO SHE WAS COMFORTABLE IN TELLING ME.

>> YOU KNOW, GASLIGHTING IS A BIG -- IS ALSO A PART OF THE BOOK.

>> RIGHT.

>> WHEN YOU, DARRIN, YOU TRY TO MAKE SENSE OF THESE EXPERIENCES WITH SOME -- EVEN YOUR BROTHER, AND SOMETIMES YOUR FRIENDS, THEY ACT LIKE IT'S NOT HAPPENING.

OR IT'S LIKE IT'S NOT ABOUT THIS, IT'S ACTUALLY ABOUT THAT.

>> YEAH.

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE HAD THIS EXPERIENCE.

YOU TALK ABOUT PERHAPS BEING FOLLOWED IN THE STORE AND YOU SAY THAT TO THE WRONG PERSON OR SOMEBODY YOU THINK IS A FRIEND AND THIS IS WHERE GREAT DIVIDING LINE HAPPENS WHERE THEY GO, ARE YOU SURE?

IT WASN'T REALLY THAT.

AND THEN YOUR WHOLE EXPERIENCE IS BEING DISCOUNTED.

I JUST WANTED TO ASK YOU IF YOU WOULD TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT.

>> WE ARE TOLD THAT IT'S NOBLE, IT'S ENLIGHTEN TO NOT GO STRAIGHT TO THAT, TO ENTERTAIN THE NOTION THAT THESE THINGS MIGHT BE CAUSED BY ANY ONE OF, LIKE, THOUSANDS OF OTHER REASONS EXCEPT FOR THE ONE MOST OBVIOUS REASON WHERE SOMEHOW PLAYING THE VICTIM OR, YOU KNOW, WE ARE BEING UNFAIR.

AND, YOU KNOW, WHO HAS BEEN TELLING US THAT FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS?

YOU KNOW, THE PEOPLE WHO WANT US TO THINK THAT.

THE PEOPLE WHO WANT US TO GIVE THEM THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT THEY DON'T DESERVE IT.

AND I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT WHITE PEOPLE IN GENERAL.

I AM TALKING ABOUT RACISTS.

I'M TALKING ABOUT -- EVEN PEOPLE OF COLOR WHO HAVE INTERNALIZED THAT AND ARE DIRECT -- LIKE THE SECURITY GUARD WHO WAS FOLLOWING ME AROUND WAS BLACK.

THE ONE WHO THOUGHT I WAS NO GOOD, EVEN THOUGH HE NEVER SEEN ME BEFORE.

>> I WONDER IF YOU THINK THIS EXPERIENCE OF HAVING YOUR EXPERIENCES DENIED AND NOT VALIDATED KIND OF -- WHERE DO YOU THINK THAT FITS INTO WORK THAT YOU DO TODAY?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT WORK THAT I DO TODAY REVOLVES AROUND THAT.

IT REVOLVES AROUND DENYING THE GASLIGHTING.

AND I DO NOT CARE, YOU KNOW, WHETHER PEOPLE TELL ME THAT I'M IMAGINING IT, THAT IT'S ALL IN MY HEAD.

I MEAN, HOW PATRONIZING IS IT.

HUMANS ARE VERY GOOD AT DISCONCERNING OTHER PEOPLE'S ATTITUDES, WE CAN TELL IF THEY ARE JEALOUS, ANGRY, WE CAN TELL IF SOMEBODY IS HUNGRY.

BUT PEOPLE TELL US THAT BLACK PEOPLE IN PARTICULAR ARE NOT ABLE TO TELL WHEN SOMEBODY IS RACIST.

THAT WE'RE NOT ABLE TO UNDERSTAND BODY LANGUAGE OR TONE OF VOICE OR EVEN THE WORDS COMING OUT OF THEIR MOUTHS THAT WE MISCONSTRUE ALL OF IT.

EVER SINCE THE CIVIL RIGHTS ERA, SOME PORTION OF THIS COUNTRY THINKS RACISM'S ALL IN THE PAST.

WE TOOK CARE OF IT THEN.

IT'S ALL OVER.

BUT IT'S NOT.

>> WHO DO YOU THINK THIS BOOK IS FOR?

DO YOU HAVE SOMEONE IN MIND THAT YOU HOPE WILL FIND IT?

>> THIS BOOK IS FOR A BROAD AUDIENCE.

IT'S FOR PEOPLE LIKE MY FATHER WHO WERE UNCOMFORTABLE WITH GIVING THE TALK.

I THINK IF THIS BOOK BEEN AROUND IN THE EARLY '80s, MY FATHER PROBABLY COULD HAVE JUST SAT DOWN WITH ME AND READ IT.

AND, YOU KNOW, WE WOULD HAVE A DISCUSSION OR NOT.

BUT IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A BIG HELP FOR HIM.

IT WOULD HAVE HELPED HIM FIND THE COURAGE TO DO IT.

IT'S ALSO FOR CHILDREN OF PARENTS LIKE THAT WHO HAVEN'T HAD THE TALK AND NEED IT.

IT'S ALSO FOR ANYBODY WHO IS NOT BLACK, WHO DOESN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT BLACK PEOPLE HAVE BEEN COMPLAINING ABOUT, BECAUSE, I MEAN, HALF MY FAMILY IS WHITE AND I CAN'T TELL YOU HOW MANY TIMES I HAVE HEARD THEM SAY OVER THE YEARS JUST OFFHAND, WHY ARE BLACK PEOPLE ALWAYS COMPLAINING?

BUT IF YOU READ THIS BOOK FOR 350 PAGES OR SO, YOU CAN UNDERSTAND.

>> I WANT TO GO BACK TO WHAT YOU JUST SAID, SOMETHING THAT YOUR, YOU KNOW, HALF YOUR FAMILY IS WHITE.

YOUR MOM'S SIDE OF THE FAMILY IS WHITE.

AND YOUR DAD COULD HAVE SHARED THESE EXPERIENCE SUPPRESSES -- LIKE HE COULD HAVE TALKED TO YOU.

BUT HE DIDN'T, AND HE DIDN'T WANT TO.

>> MY FATHER WAS CHOOSING TO PRO PRETEND IT WASN'T HAPPENING.

WE WOULD GO TO A RELATIVE'S HOUSE WHEN I WAS A KID.

AND I LOVED GOING OVER THERE BECAUSE IT MEANT I WOULD GET DONUTS.

THE REASON I WOULD GET DONUTS IS BECAUSE AFTER ABOUT TEN OR 20 MINUTES MY FATHER WOULD HEAR SO MANY RACIAL SLURS AND, YEAH, ABOUT US, ABOUT HIS SONS, THAT HE WOULD GET UP AND TAKE ME TO THE CORNER TO WINCHELL'S.

I DIDN'T KNOW WHY WE WERE THERE, BUT YOU WAS JUST GOING WITH IT.

>> WHY WAS HE THERE?

WHY WAS HE THERE?

SUBJECTING HIMSELF AND YOU TO DO.

>> THOSE WERE HIS IN-LAWS.

HE WANTED TO KEEP THE PEACE.

HE WANTED US TO KNOW OUR FAMILY.

HE JUST DIDN'T WANT US TO KNOW THEM FOR WHO THEY, YOU KNOW, WHO THEY REALLY WERE AND DIDN'T WANT TO CHALLENGE WHAT THEY WERE SAYING, ESPECIALLY IN FRONT OF US.

BECAUSE HE DIDN'T WANT US -- HE DIDN'T WANT US TO LIVE IN A -- HE DIDN'T WANT US TO THINK THAT WE LIVED IN A WORLD WHERE RACISM EXISTED.

>> WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT?

YOU KNOW, NOW THAT YOU ARE OLDER.

LIKE, WHAT DO YOU SAY SAY TO THAT, COULDN'T KIDS JUST HAVE SOME SORT OF A ZONE OF INNOCENCE WHERE THEY DON'T HAVE TO THINK ABOUT THESE THINGS?

>> WELL, YEAH.

THEY SHOULD.

AND WHEN YOU HAVE THE TALK, IT SHOULD BE AGE APPROPRIATE.

YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU'RE TALKING TO A SMALL CHILD, YOU HAVE TO EMPHASIZE THAT THIS IS A FAILING IN OTHER PEOPLE, THAT THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THEM.

THAT THEY SHOULD IGNORE IT AND JUST PLAY AND JUST, YOU KNOW, JUST HAVE FUN.

AND, YOU YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T HAVE TO TELL THEM EVERYTHING THAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN TO THEM IN LIFE.

BUT TELL THEM THINGS THAT THEY CAN RELATE TO.

AND I THINK IT'S NOT JUST THE ONE-WAY THING.

YOU ASK THEM ABOUT THEIR OWN LIFE, ABOUT HOW, YOU KNOW, HOW THEIR FRIENDS ARE TREATING THEM.

IF THEY ARE NOT EXPERIENCING ANYTHING THAT YOU THINK IS RACISM, MAYBE IT'S NOT TIME TO HAVE THE TALK YET.

BUT IF, FOR INSTANCE, AS HAPPENED IN MY BOOK, SOMEONE MAKES FUN OF THEIR LIPS BEING BIG OR THEIR HAIR BEING DIFFERENT, YOU KNOW, THAT'S WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT IT.

>> AND WHAT ABOUT TO WHITE PARENTS WHO MIGHT BE LISTENING TO THIS CONVERSATION AND THINK, WELL, I DON'T -- I DON'T -- I DON'T NEED TO INTRODUCE THAT.

OR EVEN PEOPLE WHO FEEL THAT TALKING ABOUT IT ACTUALLY ENHANCES DIVISION.

IT JUST IS DIVISION.

YOU KNOW, THERE IS THAT POINT OF VIEW.

>> THERE IS.

I MEAN, YOU KNOW, IGNORANCE IS BLISS IS A SAYING FOR A REASON.

BUT, YOU KNOW, IGNORANCE ALWAYS -- ALSO EVENTUALLY LEADS TO TRAGEDY.

IF I THINK WHITE PARENTS NEED TO HAVE THE TALK WITH THEIR WHITE CHILDREN BECAUSE IT'S GOING TO AFFECT THEM.

SOME DAY THEY MIGHT -- YOU KNOW, THEY ARE GOING TO GROW UP AND THEY MIGHT SAY THE WRONG THING OUT OF IGNORANCE, LIKE THEY DIDN'T KNOW THAT WHAT THEY WERE SAYING WAS RACIST OR HURTFUL, THEY MIGHT GET FIRED OVER THAT.

THEY MIGHT GET CANCELED OVER THAT.

WHY WOULD YOU WANT THEM STUMBLING THROUGH LIFE, STUMBLING THROUGH MINE FIELDS WITHOUT KNOWING THAT IT'S A MINEFIELD?

SO I THINK, YOU KNOW, THE NOTION -- AND THE NOTION THAT IT'S DIVISIVE, YOU KNOW, IF YOU DIDN'T PERSONALLY OWN SLAVES AND IF YOU DIDN'T PERSONALLY, YOU KNOW, TURN A FIRE HOSE ON ANYBODY OR SICK DOGS ON THEM OR BEAT THEM, YOU DON'T NEED TO FEEL GUILTY ABOUT IT.

YOU JUST NEED TO BE KNOWLEDGEABLE.

LIKE I LEARNED, YOU KNOW, WE LEARNED ALL SORTS OF ATROCITIES.

WE LEARNED ABOUT THE HOLOCAUST WHEN I WAS A SMALL KID.

WE A HOLOCAUST SURVIVOR COME IN AND SPEAK TO US.

THAT WASN'T DIVISIVE, YOU KNOW?

THAT WAS EDUCATION.

IF THEY -- IF YOU YOURSELF ARE NOT A RACIST, THEN THIS IS JUST EDUCATION.

YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT AN ATTACK.

IT'S NOT AN ACCUSATION.

>> DARRIN BELL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME.

IT'S BEEN AN HONOR BEING ON YOUR SHOW.

>>> THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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