>> Announcer: DONNYBROOK IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE SUPPORT OF THE BETSY AND THOMAS PATTERSON FOUNDATION AND THE MEMBERS OF NINE PBS.

>>> THANKS FOR JOINING US FOR THIS EDITION OF DONNYBROOK.

GREAT TO HAVE YOU WITH US AND ON NEXT UP, WE'RE GOING TO TALK TO FARRIN MANIAN, A PROFESSOR OF INFECTIOUS DISEASE, A PHYSICIAN AT MERCY HOSPITAL AND, IN FACT, THE CHAIR OF MEDICINE THERE.

HE'LL BE ANSWERING QUESTIONS TODAY FROM RAY AND WENDY.

LET'S MEET OUR PANELISTS.

THERE SHE IS, THE NEWS DIRECTOR FOR THE BIG 550, KTRS, WENDY WIESE.

ALSO COHOST OF THE JENNIFER AND WENDY SHOW.

MR. BILL McCLELLAN, ONE OF OUR FOUNDERS OF THE PROGRAM BACK IN 1987 WITH US, ALONG WITH HIS FELLOW FOUNDER FROM RAWSTORY.COM, THE BIG 550, AND THE RIVERFRONT TIMES.

MR. RAY HARTMANN.

AND FROM THE ST. LOUIS AMERICAN, HE'S ALREADY.

I DO WANT TO SAY -- HE'S ALVIN REID.

I WANT TO SAY THIS IS A SPECIAL DAY IN AMERICAN HISTORY.

IT WAS ON THIS DAY 100 YEARS AGO THAT OUR FOUNDER MARTIN DUGGAN WAS BORN.

JUNE 3rd, 1921.

I WANT TO THANK HIS DAUGHTER MARY FOR REMINDING US ABOUT THAT, BUT BILL AND RAY, YOU STARTED THIS PROGRAM WITH HIM BACK IN 1987. WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT THIS PRAM DONNYBROOK WOULD STILL BE ON PBS IN ST. LOUIS.

>> NOT I.

>> NOR I, BUT WE SURE -- IT'S GREAT.

I'M GLAD YOU PASSED THAT ON.

WE STILL MISS HIM, BUT THAT'S NICE.

>> FOR SURE.

>> I WAS GOING TO SAY, I THOUGHT OF MARTIN WHEN I WAS IN TEXAS RECENTLY BECAUSE HE WAS THERE AT ST. MARY ON DECEMBER 7th, 1941, AND SOMEBODY RAN INTO HIS ROOM AND SAID THE JAPANESE JUST BOMBED PEARL.

AND MARTIN THOUGHT THEY MEANT THE PEARL BREWERY.

AND HE THOUGHT WHAT A STRANGE PLACE FOR THE JAPANESE TO BOMB, BUT THIS MEANS WAR.

>> AND HE WAS PROUD THAT HE DEFENDED LAKE MICHIGAN FROM THE JAPANESE.

>> GOT THE WORD ALSO THAT HIS GRANDSON THOMAS WILL BE STARTING JOURNALISM SCHOOL AT THE UNIVERSITY OF MISSOURI IN THE FALL.

HOW ABOUT THAT?

THE TRADITION WILL CONTINUE.

>> WOW, WOW.

>> WENDY, WE'RE GOING TO START THE PROGRAM OFF WITH YOU.

THE MAYOR OF ST. LOUIS, TISHAURA JONES, HAS ANNOUNCED THAT AT LEAST A COMMITTEE THAT'S MAKING RECOMMENDATIONS TO HER FOR HOW TO SPEND SOME OF THAT 517 MILLION FEDERAL DOLLARS COMING OUR WAY.

OF COURSE, SHE HAS TO GET THIS THROUGH THE BOARD OF ESTIMATE AND APPORTION AND THE BOARD OF ALDERMEN, BUT THERE IS SOME DISCUSSION THAT 10,000 IN ST. LOUIS WILL RECEIVE CHECKS OF BETWEEN 350 AND $500 TO SOMEWHAT MITIGATE THE PAIN FOR THOSE WHO WERE SUPPOSED TO GET THE FEDERAL UNEMPLOYMENT CHECKS, BUT HAVE BEEN STOPPED BY THE STATE.

YOU KNOW, THERE WAS A $300 MATCH.

THAT'S GOING TO BE DISCONTINUED.

MISSOURI IS ONE OF 24 STATES TO CUT THAT OFF.

WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THIS CASH BONUS TO SOME ST. LOUISANS?

>> WELL, ON THE CITY'S WEBSITE, WHEN SHE VISITED -- WHEN MAYOR JONES VISITED WITH US SEVERAL WEEKS AGO, SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT THE FACT THAT SHE WAS LOOKING FOR INPUT FROM ST. LOUIS CITY RESIDENTS ON WHAT TO DO WITH THIS WINDFALL FROM THE GOVERNMENT, AND I'M SURE THAT THAT HAS, YOU KNOW, THAT HAS PROBABLY BEEN MENTIONED.

I THINK THE ONLY THING THAT WOULD BE DIFFICULT WOULD BE TO DETERMINE WHICH OF THE 10,000 AND WHY ONLY 10,000, BUT THIS IS -- THIS IS HER PREROGATIVE.

THAT'S THE KIND OF THING THAT SHE -- THAT WAS HER PLATFORM, EASING PAIN, REPARATIONS OF SOME SORT FOR THE PEOPLE WHO REALLY HAVE BEEN IN FINANCIALLY DIFFICULT CIRCUMSTANCES, SO I SAY GOOD FOR HER.

AND I JUST THINK IT WOULD BE VERY, VERY CHALLENGING TO DECIDE WHO AND HOW MUCH.

>> WELL, IF YOU LOOK THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE ESTIMATED, 10,000, AND LET'S SAY THEY ALL GOT 500, NOW WE'RE AT $5 MILLION AND IT WOULD PROBABLY BE LESS THAN THAT.

IF IT WAS A MILLION DOLLARS LESS, THAT'S 4 MILLION, THE EXACT AMOUNT OF MONEY BEING ROW LOCATED FROM THE POLICE DEPARTMENT.

TISHAURA HAS BEEN GREAT AT MAKING BILLS SO FAR IN REGARD TO ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT.

I THINK YOU SAY, HEY, FOUR GOES TO THE PEOPLE AND FOUR GOES BACK TO THE POLICE DEPARTMENT AND THAT WOULD BE MY ADVICE BECAUSE IT JUST -- THE INDIVIDUAL AMOUNTS OF MONEY DON'T BOTHER ME AT ALL.

I THINK IT'S A GOOD THING, BUT WHEN YOU THINK $5 MILLION, WOULD THAT, YOU KNOW, IN A MASS GO TO SOMETHING LIKE FIXING THE LOCKS AT THE JAIL OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

I KNOW OTHER MONEY IS COMING IN, BUT I'M REALLY TORN.

I REALLY AM TORN ON THAT ONE.

>> THAT'S AN INTERESTING POINT BECAUSE CARA SPENCER WHO RAN AGAINST NAIR JONES THIS PAST SPRING, BUT DIDN'T PREVAIL, SHE'S CONCERNED THAT INMATES ALREADY ARE BEING MOVED FROM THE WORKHOUSE TO THE CITY JUSTICE CENTER EVEN THOUGH THE LOCKS HAVEN'T BEEN FIXED YET.

I THOUGHT THAT WAS AN INTERESTING TWEET, BUT I WOULD SAY, OKAY, IS IT NOT POSSIBLE WITH ALL THE LITTER THAT'S ON THE HIGHWAY TO HIRE SOME PEOPLE FOR 300 OR $500 TO PICK UP SOME OF THE LITTER, OR FOR THAT MATTER, YOU DON'T KNOW HOW PEOPLE ARE GOING TO SPEND IT.

MOST WILL SPEND IT RESPONSIBLY, BUT THERE WILL BE SOME ON DRUGS OR GUNS.

WHY NOT A DAYCARE VOUCHER OR A FOOD VOUCHER.

THE CASH CONCERNS ME.

>> WHAT'S TO SAY THAT WITH THE NEXT INFUSION, YOU HAVE TO -- THERE WOULD BE PRESSURE TO REPEAT THE LARGESSE, I THINK, AGAIN, WOULDN'T THERE?

>> THERE MIGHT -- YEAH, YOU HAVE TO STAND UP TO THAT.

OKAY, SO ONE TIME, IT REALLY IS A ONE-TIME THING.

>> AND I LIKE THE IDEA OF IT BEING TARGETED, LIKE TO THE PEOPLE WHO WERE GETTING UNDER EMPLOYMENT AND NOW THE FEDS ARE STOPPING THAT.

WHEN THE NATIONAL GOVERNMENT WAS JUST GIVING EVERYBODY LIKE $1200 OR WHATEVER IT WAS, I THOUGHT, WELL, YOU KNOW THAT -- SOME PEOPLE NEED IT MORE THAN OTHERS.

AND THIS TARGETING TO PEOPLE WHO REALLY NEED IT, THAT MAKES A LOT OF SENSE TO ME.

>> ALSO, THERE IS -- FIRST OF ALL, IT IS CLEARLY A POLITICAL STATEMENT, THERE'S NO QUESTION ABOUT IT.

IT'S WHAT SHE -- HER POLITICS.

IT'S SORT OF A POKE IN THE EYE TO THE PARSONS OF THE WORD.

BY THE WAY, MIKE PARSON IS NOT THE ONLY ONE, ONE MORE PARTISAN ARGUMENT NATIONALLY.

MOST OF THE RED STATES ARE CUTTING IT OFF AND BLUE STATES AREN'T, BUT THERE'S A STIMULATIVE EFFECT LEGITIMATELY.

YOU MENTIONED GUNS AND DRUGS.

THE GUN PART IS PROBABLY ONE PART PEOPLE WOULD BE COOL WITH.

THE PEOPLE OF RELATIVELY MODEST MEANS ARE PROBABLY MORE LIKELY, ACCORDING TO EVERY STUDY DONE, TO SPEND MONEY AROUND THEMSELVES JUST OUT OF NECESSITY AND FOR NECESSITIES, AND THAT HAS A STIMULATIVE EFFECT ON THE ECONOMY MOVE MORE THAN AS BILL IS SAYING, THROWING MONEY OUT TO EVERYBODY.

IT'S NOT A BAD WAY TO STIMULATE -- >> BUT YOU DON'T KNOW THE MONEY IS GOING TO BE SPENT IN ST. LOUIS.

THAT'S WHY I SUGGEST, HOW ABOUT A GIFT CARD OR SOMETHING FOR A COMPANY IN ST. LOUIS.

>> BILL, REAL QUICK, IS CARA SPENCER OUT IN SHADOW MAYOR?

THAT WAS YOUR -- >> SHE CAN MAKE AN EFFORT AT IT, BUT IT TAKES MORE THAN ONE TWEET.

>> OKAY, ALL RIGHT.

>> IT'S A LEGITIMATE POINT.

IT'S A LEGITIMATE POINT.

HEY, HOW ABOUT THIS, WENDY WIESE?

THIS WEEK THE TWITTERVERSE WENT CRAZY IN MY VIEW AGAINST ELLIE KEMPER, THE QUEEN OF LOVE AND BEAUTY AT IF THE 1999 VEILED PROPHET BALL.

MS. KEMPER, OF COURSE, THE GREAT ACTRESS FROM "THE OFFICE" AND BEYOND.

WELL, PEOPLE ASSOCIATE HER WITH THE KKK BECAUSE THE GARB OF THE VEILED PROPHET LOOKS SIMILAR TO THE GARB OF THE PEOPLE WITH THE KU KLUX KLAN, WHICH MAKES NO SENSE.

BUT THERE YOU HAVE IT.

THE TWITTERVERSE AND SHE WAS SMEARED.

WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THIS?

>> WELL, I WAS STRUCK BY A FACEBOOK POST BY OUR FRIEND AND COLLEAGUE, LONGTIME ANCHOR AND REPORTER DON JOHNSON YESTERDAY, BECAUSE DON USUALLY ALWAYS SHOOTS VERY STRAIGHT FROM THE HIP, AND HE THOUGHT THAT TO SUGGEST SOME KIND OF CONNECTION BETWEEN ELLIE KEMPER AND THE KKK WAS ABSURD.

HE SAID, OBVIOUSLY IT WAS A RACIST ORGANIZATION.

IT WAS KEEPING BLACK PEOPLE OUT.

IT WAS ABOUT KEEPING JEWS OUT, ALL PEOPLE OF COLOR.

BUT THAT SINCE THE 1970s, THEY HAVE MADE AN EFFORT, THEY EXTENDED AN INVITATION TO DON HIMSELF.

THEY HAD EXTENDED INVITATIONS TO MANY PEOPLE OF COLOR IN AN EFFORT TO BE MORE DIVERSE, AND IT JUST -- I DISAGREED WITH HIM AND -- BECAUSE YES, EVERY ORGANIZATION WAS RACIST AT ONE TIME OR ANOTHER IN THIS COUNTRY.

BUT TO BLAME ELLIE KEMPER, A YOUNG WOMAN, HE JUST THOUGHT THAT THAT WAS UNFAIR AND I AGREE WITH HIM.

>> OKAY, I JUST -- LOOK, IF ANYBODY ANYWHERE CATCHES SOME GRIEF BECAUSE THEY HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE VEILED PROPHET, I'M SORRY.

I DON'T FEEL SORRY FOR THEM.

I'M NOT SAYING THEY'RE RACIST, I'M NOT SAYING THEY'RE -- LET'S GET REAL HERE.

SHE WAS THE QUEEN IN 1999 AND YOU GOT SOME GUY PARADING AROUND IN A HOODED MASK AND ALL WHITE AND IT'S ALL SECRET, AND I DON'T CARE HOW MANY, YOU KNOW, BLACK PEOPLE GOT INVITED OR THEIR DAUGHTERS COULD HOPEFULLY BE THE VEILED PROPHET QUEEN.

IT IS SO ANTEBELLUM THAT IT NEEDS TO GO.

IT NEEDS TO STOP.

AND I AM NOT PERSONALLY ATTACKING ANYBODY THAT HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT OTHER THAN THEY REALLY NEED TO ASK THEMSELVES, SERIOUSLY?

IN 2021, WE'RE STILL DOING THIS?

SO YEAH, IF SHE CAUGHT GRIEF, THAT'S BECAUSE SHE WAS THE SQUEEN AND SHE MAY HAVE ENJOYED IT, IT MAY HAVE LAUNCHED HER CAREER, BUT PEOPLE OF COLOR, PEOPLE WHO ARE WHITE, PEOPLE ACROSS THE WORLD WHO PROBABLY HAVE NEVER HEARD OF IT WOULD HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THIS WHOLE VEILED PROPHET THING.

>> SO YOU KNOW, IT'S A DEBUTANTE BALL AND MAJOR CITIES HAVE THEM.

THERE WAS A GREAT MOVIE ABOUT THEM IN NEW YORK CITY AROUND 1990 CALLED METROPOLITAN.

>> DID THEY WEAR A COSTUME, CHARLIE?

IS IT A SECRET?

>> CARNIVALE THEY WEAR COSTUMES.

HALLOWEEN, WE WEAR COSTUMES PPS IT'S WEIRD, I ADMIT.

IT'S NOT JUST BLACKS AND JEWS WHO WEREN'T ALLOWED TO JOIN.

YOU HAD TO HAVE A LOT OF MONEY.

IT WAS FOR THE CAPTAINS OF INDUSTRY.

>> A LOT OF MONEY.

>> A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO WERE NOT INVITED WHO WERE FROM ALL BACKGROUNDS WHO COULD NOT JOIN THAT.

>> SO THAT MAKES IT OKAY?

>> NO, I MEAN -- >> OH, YEAH, IF YOU HAD SEVERAL MILLION, YOU GET INVITED, BUT IF YOU HAD SEVERAL HUNDRED THOUSAND, YOU WOULDN'T, SO THAT MEANS JEWS, BLACK PEOPLE, Y'ALL COMPLETELY OUT.

>> I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THE RICH HANGING AMONG THEMSELVES.

THEY WANT TO DO THAT, HAVE THEIR BALL, WHO AM I TO SAY THEY SHOULD INVITE ME?

>> I DON'T WANT TO GET INVITED.

IF THEY INVITED ME, I WOULD NEVER EVER EVER EVER GO.

YOU TALK ABOUT BURNING A DRAFT CARD.

YOU SEE THAT ON THE TWITTER.

>> ALVIN, I DISAGREE WITH ALVIN ON THIS ONE AND I UNDERSTAND YOUR CONCERN, OBVIOUSLY, VERY INVOLVED BACK IN THE '80s TALKING ABOUT HOW I DIDN'T THINK THAT ST. LOUIS'S SIGNATURE EVENT AT THE RIVERFRONT SHOULD BE CALLED THE VP ANYTHING.

IT WAS THE VP FAIR AND I UNDERSTAND AND I DON'T DISAGREE WITH WHAT ALVIN IS SAYING, BUT ON A NUMBER OF LEVELS, FIRST OF ALL, IF WE'RE GOING TO HOLD ELLIE KEMPER TO THAT STANDARD, WE HAVE TO HAVE SIMILAR DISDAIN FOR PEOPLE NAMED DANFORTH AND SCHNUCKS AND GOD KNOWS WHO ELSE.

>> WHEN IT COMES TO THE VEILED PROPHET, I DO.

THESE ARE ALL GOOD PEOPLE AND GREAT FAMILIES, BUT IF YOU'RE GOING TO SIGN OFF ON THE VEILED PROPHET, I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT.

I WILL ALWAYS HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT AND NOTHING CAN BE SAID THAT WILL CHANGE MY MIND.

I'M NOT CALLING PEOPLE RACIST, BUT I'M CALLING THEM WRONG WHEN IT COMES TO THIS VEILED PROPHET THING.

>> I'M NOT SUGGESTING YOU'RE CALLING ANYBODY ANYTHING.

I DON'T THINK THAT 20-SOME YEARS LATER AFTER SHE TOOK PART IN THIS AS A KID, THAT ELLIE KEMPER SHOULD BE ANSWERING FOR IT, BUT I HAVE TO SAY, THIS KIND OF STORY UNFORTUNATELY MAKES IT HARDER TO ME TO GET RACIAL JUSTICE BECAUSE WE'RE CONSTANTLY DEALING WITH SYMBOLS AND WHAT SOME PEOPLE CALL POLITICAL CORRECTNESS.

I WOULD ARGUE THAT THE WHOLE CANCEL CULTURE IS AN IS MUCH ON THE RIGHT AS IT IS THE LEFT, BUT MY POINT IS, I JUST DON'T THINK IT'S HELPFUL.

I JUST DON'T THINK SHE SHOULD BE SUBJECTED TO IT.

I DON'T DISAGREE WITH -- I'M NOT SAYING SHOULDN'T HAVE A RIGHT TO -- >> WHAT I THINK IS MORE WEIRD THAN THE MASK, PEOPLE WEAR COSTUMES, THEY DO WHAT THEY DO.

I THOUGHT IT WAS WEIRD, I'M NOT FROM ST. LOUIS, THAT THEY TELEVISED IT AND THE KIDS WOULD SIT AROUND, I GUESS IN THE '50s AND '60s, OTHER KIDS HOORN NOT ELITE WOULD SIT AT HOME AND WATCH THE GIRLS WHO HAD MONEY?

THAT'S RUBBING IT IN YOUR FACE.

>> AND LET'S DON'T EVEN LOOK AT IT FROM A SEXIST STANDPOINT.

ONE OF THE MANY PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN INTERVIEWED ON THIS IS LIKE, IT WAS A -- IT WAS LIKE A PARADE FOR VIRGINAL POTENTIAL WIVES.

I MEAN, IT WAS -- IT'S A PRETTY ANTIQUATED IDEA IN THE MINDS OF MANY PEOPLE AND I DON'T KNOW IF IT WILL STAND UP IN THE 2020 POST-WOKE CULTURE.

>> AND I THINK ONE THING -- >> AND THERE'S STILL A VERSION OF IT.

>> IT SHOULD TAUGHT MORE THAN IT IT IS THE HISTORY OF THIS -- YOU TALK ABOUT EDUCATION AND WHAT WE TEACHER AND DON'T TEACH.

THE FACT THAT WE HAVE LITERALLY WHITE WASHED THIS IS NOT COOL.

>> BUT IT'S NOT ASSOCIATED WITH THE KKK.

THAT'S CLEAR.

AND TWITTERVERSE SAYS IT WAS.

>> I THINK PEOPLE SHOULD KNOW MORE ABOUT OUR HISTORY IN THIS RESPECT AND QUITE HONESTLY, THIS ISN'T A GREAT PART OF IT.

>> OKAY, ALVIN REID, SPEAKING OF PARTS OF OUR HISTORY THAT ARE NOT GREAT, WE JUST CLOSED THE FEMA SITE WHICH WAS ADMINISTERING VACCINATIONS FOR EIGHT WEEKS.

THE RESULTS WERE WOEFUL.

WE EXPECTED 3,000 A DAY AND WE INOCULATED 800 A DAY.

AND HERE WE ARE THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS, ALL THESE WEEKS AFTER WE'VE HAD THE VACCINE, JUST 29% OF ST. LOUISANS ARE FULLY VACCINATED.

NOT MUCH BETTER IN THE COUNTY.

36% THERE.

I DON'T GET IT.

THE LINES WEREN'T LONG, IT WAS VERY WELL ORGANIZED, WHY DO YOU THINK THIS AREA IS NOT GETTING VACCINATED?

>> WELL, ST. LOUIS FIRST IN STDs, LAST IN GETTING A VACCINATION, YOU KNOW, THAT CAN SAVE YOUR LIFE.

I DON'T HAVE AN ANSWER.

I WILL SAY THAT THE SITE OPENED UP, YOU KNOW, AT THE DOME JUST LITERALLY WITHIN TEN DAYS OF -- MAYBE EVEN FEWER DAYS, THAT YOU COULD NOW MAKE APPOINTMENTS TO GO TO, LIKE, YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD PHARMACY.

SO I THINK THAT TOOK AWAY THE DEMAND THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN THERE AT THE DOME.

BUT WITH THAT BEING SAID, 30% IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH AND THEN THE CITY'S LEVEL IS JUST ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS AND THERE'S -- I MEAN, THERE'S SO MUCH EDUCATION THAT YOU CAN PUT OUT THERE, THERE'S SO MUCH KNOWLEDGE YOU CAN TRY TO GIVE TO PEOPLE, BUT THERE'S JUST NO EXCUSE FOR IT.

THAT'S SAD.

>> I THINK -- >> WELL, I AGREE THERE'S NO EXCUSE, BUT CERTAINLY THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE, AS YOU KNOW, ALVIN, THE BLACK COMMUNITY HAVE SOME ISSUES WITH WHAT HAPPENED TO BLACK PEOPLE ABOUT THE TIME WHEN THE VP FAIR WAS -- BUT THAT'S PRETTY CLEAR, THAT EXPERIENCE.

AND THERE'S THE FACT THAT, LET'S NOT FORGET THAT WE'VE GOT THE FOX NEWSES OF THE WORLD HAMMERING AWAY AT A SUBSTANTIAL PART OF THE POPULATION, TELLING THEM THEIR FREEDOM IS BEING DENIED AND THIS IS PLOT.

THAT'S NOT TO BE UNESTIMATED.

>> BUT THE PERCENTAGE IS HIGHER IN ST. CHARLES, 37%.

>> BUT THAT STILL DOESN'T MEAN THERE AREN'T PEOPLE AFFECTED BY THAT.

>> WELL, THERE'S -- OKAY, I HEAR YOU, RAY, BUT I DON'T THINK OF THE CITY POPULATION THAT HAS NOT BEEN VACCINATED, OF THAT 27% THAT HAVE BEEN VACCINATED, I WOULD GUESS THAT THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF THOSE ARE WHITE ST. LOUISANS, SO THE WHITE -- YOU KNOW, THE WHOLE IDEA OF BLACK PEOPLE NOT BEING VACCINATED, YOU CAN GO BACK TO TUSKEGEE AND A LOT OF OTHER THINGS, THAT LITERALLY, MOST YOUNG PEOPLE HAVE NO IDEA WHAT A TUSKEGEE SYPHILIS STUDY WAS.

SO THERE'S SOMETHING MISSING AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS.

>> IT'S UNFORTUNATE.

>> EVEN THOUGH -- >> I THINK PART OF IT IS LIKE FOR THE POLIO OR SPANISH FLU WHERE THE STRUCK YOUNG PEOPLE AND YOU COULD LOOK AROUND AND SEE PEOPLE YOU KNEW GETTING HIT BY IT, IF THERE WERE LIKE -- IT DEVASTATED THE POPULATION IN A LOT OF RETIREMENT HOMES, BUT IF YOU'RE JUST A YOUNG GUY OUT ON THE STREET, YOU DON'T KNOW ANYBODY WHO'S GETTING SICK AND SO THERE WASN'T AN URGENCY TO GO OUT AND PROTECT YOURSELF AND IT SEEMED LIKE A LOT OF HYPE.

>> AND ANOTHER THING IS, EVEN THOUGH THE TUSKEGEE AIRMEN WERE AFRICAN AMERICAN, THE GENERATIONS OF WHITE AMERICANS AND HISPANIC AMERICANS WHO HAVE GROWN UP HEARING ABOUT THAT ARE NOT EXACTLY BABES IN RELIEF.

IF THE GOVERNMENT CAN DO IT TO ONE SEGMENT OF THE POPULATION, THEN THE GOVERNMENT CAN DO IT TO ANY SEGMENT OF THE POPULATION.

I THINK THAT MINDSET STILL EXISTS TODAY.

>> I'M JUST GOING TO CORRECT YOU REAL QUICK BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T MEAN TO SAY IT, WENDY, BUT THE TUSKEGEE AIRMEN WERE THE PILOTS THAT FLEW THAT WORLD WAR II.

>> WHAT DID I SAY?

>> YOU SAID THE TUSKEGEE AIRMEN.

>> BUT THE COMMUNITY IS NOT ESCHEWING THE MEASLES AND MUMPS VACCINE AND POLIO.

I DON'T GET IT.

>> THEY'VE BEEN AROUND FOR DECADES.

>> PARENTS AND GRANDPARENTS ARE OLD ENOUGH TO REMEMBER PEOPLE WHO HAD POLIO.

ALSO, YOU HAD TO HAVE THOSE SHOTS TO GO TO SCHOOL, SO THE SECOND THEY SAY YOU HAVE TO HAVE A VACCINATION TO COME TO SCHOOL NEXT FALL, GUESS HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE GOING TO GET VACCINATED.

>> THERE'S A BETTER INCENTIVE BECAUSE GOVERNOR PRITZKER IN ILLINOIS IS GOING TO SIGN LEGISLATION THAT ALLOWS BARS TO GIVE EVERYBODY A FREE BAR IF THEY CAN SHOW PROOF OF VACCINATION.

YOU TAKE THAT CARD TO 30 BARS, I GUESS YOU GET 30 BEERS.

IT'S SAD THAT WE HAVE TO INCENTIVIZE PEOPLE WITH BEER TO GET THEM A LIFE-SAVING CURE, BUT A-B IS GOING TO DO THAT TOO.

THEY'VE ANNOUNCED IT'S GOING TO GIVE A FREE BEER TO EVERY AMERICAN IF 70% OF US ARE VACCINATED BY THE FOURTH OF JULY?

>> I'LL GET MY FREE BEER, BUT IT'S ALL SILLY, REALLY, THAT YOU HAVE TO DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT AND I DON'T THINK IT'S GOING TO REALLY INCENT TI VIZE ANYBODY TO TRY TO MAKE THAT 70% SO OTHER PEOPLE CAN GET FREE BEERS.

THIS IS THE SORT OF THING IF YOU'RE WORRIED ABOUT COVID, YOU GO AND GET A VACCINATION.

AND LIKE WE ALL DID.

BUT IF YOU'RE NOT WORRIED, YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T CARE.

SO I THINK IT'S VERY NICE OF A-B AND I APPLAUD THEM, BUT I DON'T THINK IT MEANS ANYTHING.

>> WELL, ONE WAY TO DO IT IS TO MAKE IT COOL.

IF YOU MAKE THINGS COOL, THEN PEOPLE WANT TO DO IT.

WITH THAT BEING SAID, COLD BEER HERE!

COLD BEER HERE!

I LIKE THE 30-BEER THEORY, CHARLIE.

>> WHAT I'M TRYING TO FIGURE OUT IS HOW WELL GROUNDED IS YOUR -- THAT HESITATION IF YOU'RE GOING TO GO AHEAD AND, WOW, SOMEBODY OFFERED YOU ONE FREE BEER, YOU'RE GOING TO GO AHEAD AND GET SOMETHING THAT YOU THOUGHT WAS SO DANGEROUS.

IF YOUR FEAR CAN BE BOUGHT FOR A BEER, THEN WHATEVER WORKS.

>> IN THE STATE OF OHIO, PRETTY MUCH EVERY DAY THEY'RE ANNOUNCING MILLION-DOLLAR LOTTERY WINNERS.

THAT SEEMS TO BE -- >> THAT WILL WORK.

>> I THINK IT'S KIND OF, AT THIS POINT, I'M WITH BILL, CERTAINLY NOT GOING TO NECESSARILY -- I GUESS I SHOULDN'T SAY MOVE THE NEEDLE, BUT I THINK THAT IT'S FUN.

>> OKAY.

>> WHAT A-B IS DOING.

IT'S NOT DOING ANY HARM IT.

>>ANNOUNCED BY THE POST-DISPATCH, I THINK JOEL COURIER AND I HADN'T SEEN THIS UNTIL YOU POINTED IT OUT PRIOR TO THE PROGRAM, BUT JERRY CARMODY, THE SPECIAL PROSECUTOR SUPPOSED TO BE PROSECUTING DONA DONALD TISABY, THE SPECIAL PROSECUTOR FOR KIM GARDNER, TO MAKE A LONG STORY SHORT, CARMODY IS PULLING BECAUSE OUT THE TRIAL HAS BEEN DELAYED SO MUCH, HE'S NOT GOING TO -- HE'S GOT OTHER THINGS TO SAY -- OR OTHER THINGS TO DO, OTHER THINGS ON HIS AGENDA.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THIS?

>> ONLY IN ST. LOUIS WOULDN'T THIS BE A BIG STORY.

THIS IS A BIG CASE.

WHATEVER YOU THINK OF KIM GARDNER AND TISABY, THIS IS A BIG CASE.

IT WAS A BIG DEAL WHEN JERRY CARMODY WHO IS NOT BY NATURE A CRIMINAL PROSECUTOR, THAT WAS BROUGHT IN WITH MUCH FANFARE.

HE'S GOING TO DO THE SPECIAL PROSECUTION AND JOEL CURRIER DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT, BUT THE FACT IS THAT THE POST-DISPATCH HAD IT UP ON ITS WEBSITE FOR ABOUT TEN MINUTES.

IT PLAYED IT TODAY BURIED IN PAGE 7 SOMEWHERE, AND THIS IS A BIG DEAL.

WHATEVER YOU THINK ABOUT IT, THAT THE SPECIAL PROSECUTOR IN THIS CASE, WHICH BY THE WAY IS THE BASIS FOR AN EFFORT TO DISBAR OUR CIRCUIT ATTORNEY HERE, AND IT'S LIKE NOBODY CARES.

AND THERE'S GOING TO BE ANOTHER ELEMENT COME OUT, IN FACT, I'M WORKING ON IT, WHICH IS THAT JERMAINE WOOTEN, WHO REPRESENTS THE CITY, HAS FILED A MOTION TO -- WHAT'S THE -- >> DISMISS?

>> NO, TO SANCTION JERRY CARMODY.

THERE'S REALLY IRONY THERE.

>> OKAY, LET ME EXPLAIN A COUPLE THINGS HERE, RAY.

FIRST OF ALL, CRITICIZING THE POST-DISPATCH FOR THIS SHOULD BE A BIG STORY, WHEN DID MR. CARMODY FILE HIS MOTION TO GET OUT?

ON FRIDAY AFTERNOON BEFORE MEMORIAL DAY.

I MEAN, THIS IS AN EFFORT BY HIM TO KEEP IT QUIET.

JOEL CURRIER, BLESS HIS HEART, FOUND OUT AND HAD A STORY IN AND WHO ARE WE SUPPOSED TO GO TO?

KIM GARDNER, OF COURSE, WON'T TALK TO US.

MR. CARMODY JUST GAVE A SHORT STATEMENT AND LET THAT RIDE.

TISABY'S LAWYER WON'T TALK TO IT, AND AS FAR AS WHY THIS IS HAPPENING, I HAVE A PRETTY GOOD GUESS.

AS I SAID BEFORE, KIM GARDNER IS LIKE DONALD TRUMP.

I MEAN, HER PEOPLE ARE FIERCE AND FURIOUS AND IF I'M MR. CARMODY, YOU KNOW, HIS FIRM HAS TWO OF HIS CHILDRENING YOU KNOW, ADULT CHILDREN WORKING ON THIS CASE, AND THEY'RE ALL OF A SUDDEN BEING PUT IN THIS POSITION WHERE, YOU KNOW, YOU ARE PART OF THE RACIST -- >> OH, COME ON.

>> -- ESTABLISHMENT OUT TO GET KIM GARDNER AND IF I'M CARMODY, I DON'T WANT MY KIDS TO GO THROUGH THAT, SO I'M SAYING -- AND JUST LIKE YOU SAY, WOOTEN HAS ALREADY FILED A MOTION TO CENSURE THEM AND TO SANCTION THEM AND GOING AFTER KIM GARDNER, EVEN WHEN YOU'RE RIGHT ABOUT KIM GARDNER, HER FANS ARE FIERCE ABOUT THIS AND I'M NOT SURPRISED THAT CARMODY DOESN'T WANT ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT.

>> EXCUSE ME, BILL, BUT EVERY PART OF THAT -- FIRST OF ALL, THERE'S NO EVIDENCE OF ANY KIND OF THREATS OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

>> ANY EVIDENCE OF WHAT?

>> NO EVIDENCE THAT ANYBODY IS GOING AFTER MR. CARMODY'S -- >> WOOTEN DID.

>> HE'S THE ATTORNEY AND HE -- >> YEAH.

>> EXCUSE ME, HE'S ACCUSING CARMODY OF DOING THE STUFF THAT CAR PLOD I DID AND ALL -- CARMODY AND ALL THESE GUYS ACCUSED GARDNER OF, BUT EYE POINT IS ALL THE FACTORS YOU TALKED ABOUT WITH KIM GARDNER WERE IN PLACE WHEN HE AFFIRMATIVELY WENT AFTER THAT POSITION.

IT'S NOT LIKE SOME NEW DEVELOPMENT THERE.

EVERYTHING HE -- HE KNEW WHO HE WAS GOING AFTER.

>> HE WAS NAMED SPECIAL PROSECUTOR.

>> AND A HE WANTED THE JOB.

>> THAT IS A POSITION, THE SPECIAL PROSECUTOR AGAINST KIM GARDNER WHEN HER DEFENSE IS THE RACIST ESTABLISHMENT IS OUT TO GET ME, THAT'S NOT A GOOD POSITION TO BE IN.

>> ALL THE FACTORS THERE WHEN HE CAMPAIGNED FOR THERE JOB.

HE DIDN'T GET DRAFTED.

>> WHAT DO YOU MEAN HE CAMPAIGNED FOR IT?

>> HE DID.

HE WENT AFTER THE JOB.

>> I WILL SAY -- WE ONLY HAVE 30 SECONDS TO GO, BUT IT IS POSSIBLE, IT'S BEEN DELAYED SO MUCH.

I MEAN, BECAUSE OF COVID, THE COURTS -- >> I AGREE.

>> -- PUT CASES ON THE BACK BURNER.

>> IT'S STILL DELAYED.

>> CURRIER IS FINE, HE'S GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH THE FACT THAT IT SHOULD HAVE ON 1-A AND IT WASN'T.

>> ALL YOU CAN DO IS SOMETHING FILED FRIDAY AFTERNOON A MEMORIAL DAY WEEKEND IS YOU GET IT AND TRY TO MAKE AS MUCH AS YOU CAN, BUT WHEN PEOPLE WON'T TALK TO YOU, WHAT ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO DO?

>> PUT IT ON 1-A.

>> HEY, THAT'S IT FOR THE FIRST HALF.

ON NEXT UP, JUST MOMENTS AWAY, RAY AND WENDY WILL TALK TO DR. FARRIN MANIAN FROM MERCY HOSPITAL, TAKING THEIR QUESTIONS ABOUT INFECTIOUS DISEASE.

THAT AND MORE NEXT ON NEXT UP.

>> Announcer: DONNYBROOK IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE SUPPORT OF THE BETSY AND THOMAS PATTERSON FOUNDATION AND THE MEMBERS OF NINE PBS.

* >> WELCOME BACK.

THIS IS DONNYBROOK NEXT UP.

I'M WENDY WIESE WITH MY COLLEAGUE RAY HARTMANN, AND WE ARE SO DELIGHTED TO WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM DR. FARRIN MANIAN.

HE IS AN INFECTIOUS DISEASE PHYSICIAN AND THE CHAIRMAN OF THE DEPARTMENT OF MEDICINE AT MERCY HOSPITAL.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE, DOCTOR.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> THERE IS A GREAT DEAL OF INTEREST AS WE MOVE AWAY OR AT LEAST SEMI OUT OF THE PANDEMIC'S CLUTCHES, THERE'S A GREAT DEAL OF INTEREST IN THE INFORMATION THAT IS COMING TO LIGHT ABOUT THE SO-CALLED LONG HAULERS.

WE'RE SEEING ALARMING SYMPTOMS FROM PEOPLE REALLY OF ALL AGES, MAINLY PEOPLE MAY BE IN THEIR 30s AND 40s, AND PERHAPS 50s, WHO STILL HAVE A LOT OF LIFE AHEAD.

WHAT CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THESE LONG HAULERS AND WHAT THEY'RE IN FOR?

>> YEAH.

SO, YOU KNOW, INITIALLY WHEN COVID WAS RECOGNIZED, I THINK EVERYBODY THOUGHT IT WAS GOING TO BE AN ACUTE INFECTION, INFECTION THAT YOU GET SICK FROM AND THEN IT KIND OF GOES AWAY AND YOU'RE DONE, HOPEFULLY WITH A GOOD RECOVERY, BUT AS MORE AND MORE PEOPLE HAVE GOTTEN SICK, WE'VE BECOME MORE AWARE OF THE FACT THAT SOME PEOPLE, DEPENDING ON THE STUDY AND HOW YOU ACTUALLY DEFINE IT, COULD BE AS HIGH AS, YOU KNOW, 75% OF PEOPLE AFTER SIX MONTHS MAY ACTUALLY HAVE SOME SYMPTOMS THAT ARE LINGERING AFTER THE ACUTE PHASE OF THE INFECTION IS GONE.

SO THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT REQUIRING HOSPITALIZATION ANYMORE, THEY'RE NOT HAVING HIGH FEVERS OR NECESSARILY HAVING RESPIRATORY SYMPTOMS, BUT THEY JUST CONTINUE HAVING FATIGUE, HEADACHES, ABDOMINAL PAIN, MUSCLE ACHES, AND THESE ARE THINGS AT THE THEY DID NOT HAVE BEFORE THE COVID ACTUALLY HIT THEM.

SO THE LONGER LASTING SET OF SYMPTOMS, AND SOME PEOPLE ACTUALLY CALL IT POST ACUTE.

POST ACUTE MEANS AFTER THE ACUTE INFECTION IS DONE, THESE ARE THE KIND OF AFTEREFFECTS, SYMPTOMS THAT SEEM TO LINGER ON MUCH LONGER THAN JUST A COUPLE OF WEEKS.

>> AND WHAT ARE SOME OF THOSE SYMPTOMS?

I MEAN, YOU MENTIONED THE RESPIRATORY, THE INTESTINAL, BUT I READ SOMEWHERE WHERE ONE OF THE PATIENTS DESCRIBED IT AS, SHE LITERALLY COULD NOT GET OUT OF BED.

YOU TALK ABOUT THE FATIGUE.

HOW DOES IT DIFFER FROM, SAY, A CHRONIC FATIGUE SYNDROME TYPE ILLNESS?

>> YEAH, SO IT HAS A LOT OF FEATURES THAT ARE ASSOCIATED, THAT WE OFTEN ASSOCIATE WITH CHRONIC FATIGUE AND SOMETIMES, YOU KNOW, LIKE FIBROMYALGIA, WHICH IS JUST KIND OF A CHRONIC MUSCLE AND JOINT PAIN.

FATIGUE IS A VERY COMMON PART OF THE SYNDROME.

ON THE OTHER HAND, THERE ARE OTHER THINGS, FOR EXAMPLE, LOSS OF SENSE OF SMELL WHICH IS RELATIVELY UNIQUE TO COVID AND THAT CAN GO ON FOR A COUPLE OF MONTHS BEFORE YOU REGAIN THAT.

THERE ARE ALSO A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE, YOU KNOW, ABDOMINAL PAIN THAT SOME PEOPLE ACTUALLY STILL HAVE THIS COUGH THAT JUST GOES ON LONGER THAN JUST A COUPLE OF WEEKS.

SO IT HAS FEATURES THAT ARE SOMEWHAT COMMON WITH THE CHRONIC FATIGUE, BUT IT ALSO HAS FEATURES THAT ARE UNUSUAL IN TYPICALLY PATIENT POPULATION THAT HAS CHRONIC FATIGUE SYNDROME.

AND, YOU KNOW, TO BE HONEST, I THINK WE'RE ALL REALLY LEARNING RIGHT NOW, TRYING TO, NUMBER ONE, DEFINE IT SO THAT WE CAN STUDY IT BETTER, AND THEN REALLY CHARACTERIZE IT IN A WAY THAT WE CAN FIGURE OUT WAYS TO BEST TREAT THEM FOR IT.

SO WE'RE STILL IN OUR INFANCY IN REALLY UNDERSTANDING THIS SYNDROME.

>> DOCTOR, IT'S CERTAINLY GREAT -- THE HUMILITY THAT WE'RE ALL LEARNING NOW IS IMPRESSIVE, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, PROBABLY GIVES PEOPLE A LITTLE BIT OF A CHILL THAT WE DON'T KNOW.

DO WE HAVE ANY SENSE FOR WHAT PROPORTION OF THE POPULATION OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE HAD COVID MIGHT BE UNFORTUNATE CANDIDATES FOR THE LONG HAUL EFFECTS?

>> YEAH, SO MANY OF THESE PATIENTS ARE KIND OF YOUNGER POPULATION WHO REALLY WERE HEALTHY BEFORE COVID.

DEPENDING ON THE STUDY, THERE'S ONE STUDY, FOR EXAMPLE, FROM CHINA THAT THEY ACTUALLY REPORTED THAT 75% OR 76% OF PEOPLE HAD AT LEAST ONE SYMPTOM AFTER SIX MONTHS.

THERE WAS ANOTHER STUDY THAT CAME OUT OF THE U.S., A HOSPITALIZED PATIENT, ABOUT A THIRD OF PEOPLE STILL HAVE SYMPTOMS AFTER 60 DAYS.

THERE'S ALSO A SIMILAR STUDY THAT PEOPLE THAT NEVER GOT HOSPITALIZED AND THEY ACTUALLY HAVE SYMPTOMS STILL -- ABOUT A THIRD OF THEM HAVE SYMPTOMS AFTER A COUPLE OF WEEKS.

SO -- BUT I THINK THE THING THAT IS REALLY IMPORTANT AND THE THING THAT ACTUALLY KIND OF SURPRISED ME WAS THIS DISEASE IS THAT THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY HAD MILD COVID DISEASE, THAT NEVER ACTUALLY REQUIRED HOSPITALIZATION, THAT WOUND UP WITH THIS SYNDROME.

WE KNOW, AT LEAST IN MY EXPERIENCE, WHEN I IDENTIFIED PEOPLE WHO HAVE CHRONIC -- HAVE THE FATIGUE OR ILLNESS ASSOCIATED WITH AN ACUTE INFECTION, MOST OF THE ACUTE INFECTIONS HAVE BEEN ON THE SEVERE SIDE, BUT THERE'S A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF PEOPLE WITH COVID WHO REALLY DIDN'T HAVE SEVERE ENOUGH DISEASE TO REQUIRE HOSPITALIZATION WHO ARE ALSO GETTING THIS.

I THINK IT'S A VERY INTERESTING DEVELOPMENT WITH THIS DISEASE.

>> IF I COULD FOLLOW UP ON THAT POINT, I HAVE A FRIEND WHO FITS EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE DESCRIBING.

SHE HAD FAIRLY MILD SYMPTOMS, SHE HAD COVID, DID EVERYTHING RIGHT, AND NEVER HAD ANYTHING NEAR HOSPITALIZATION.

AND SHE HAS ONGOING FATIGUE THAT'S KIND OF UNPREDICTABLE.

AND THE UNPREDICTABILITY OF IT IS PERHAPS THE WORST PART OF IT.

SHE WANTS TO KNOW IS THIS GOING TO BE FOREVER OR IS -- WHAT DO YOU SAY TO SOMEBODY?

BECAUSE AS YOU SAY, CANDIDLY, AS WELL AS -- NO PROFESSION HAS EVER SHINED BETTER THAN THE MEDICAL PROFESSION IN THIS NIGHTMARE, BUT WE DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON.

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO SOMEBODY ABOUT HOW LIKELY THIS IS THAT THIS IS GOING TO BE AROUND FOR JUST AROUND FOR A LITTLE WHILE AND WHATEVER?

>> RIGHT, I THINK THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

AGAIN, A DOSE OF HUMILITY IS A REALLY GOOD THING TO PRESENT AT THE VERY BEGINNING.

KNOWING THAT SOMEBODY HAS HAD AN ACUTE INFECTION AND THEY DIDN'T HAVE THIS PROBLEM BEFORE AND NOW THEY HAVE IT GIVES ME MORE HOPE THAT THIS IS GOING TO GO AWAY.

AND THE REASON I SAY THAT IS IF THESE SYMPTOMS WERE PRESENT IN ANY FORM OR FASHION BEFORE COVID, THEN I WOULD BE LESS SANGUINE ABOUT THEM GOING AWAY AS THE ILLNESS -- AS YOU GET FURTHER AND FURTHER OUT FROM COVID.

A LOT OF SYMPTOMS, SAY FOR EXAMPLE, LOSS OF SMELL THAT ARE MORE SPECIFIC TO COVID, DO ACTUALLY GO AWAY AFTER A FEW MONTHS.

SO THERE IS HEALING THERE, TOO, AND CERTAINLY MY EXPERIENCE, PEOPLE I'VE SEEN IN THE HOSPITAL AS WELL AS SOME EVEN FRIENDS THAT HAVE HAD -- WHO HAD IT TWO OR THREE MONTHS, THEY REALLY DO GET BETTER OFTEN.

NOW, WILL ALL THE SYMPTOMS GO AWAY OR NOT?

FATIGUE HAS ALWAYS BEEN ONE OF THE MAJOR PROBLEMS AND IT FLUCTUATES.

AT LEAST IN MY EXPERIENCE, WHEN I TAKE CARE OF A LOT OF PATIENTS WITH CHRONIC DISEASE, IT WAS PRETTY AMAZING.

THERE ARE DAYS WHEN PEOPLE COULDN'T GET OUT OF BED AND THEN THERE WERE DAYS WHERE YOU FELT LIKE, WOW, I GOT A LOT OF ENERGY TODAY, I'M GOING TO GO DO SOME GARDENING OR GO JOGGING, AND THEN BOOM, THEY GOT SICK AGAIN.

THEY FELT REALLY WEAK AGAIN.

WHAT I TELL PEOPLE IS BE PATIENT.

I MEAN, BE PATIENT.

I KNOW WE ALL WANT 100% YESTERDAY AND I GET IT.

I'M THE SAME WAY.

I WANT TO BE WELL, I DON'T WANT TO BE SICK.

BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, I THINK RECOGNIZING THAT WE NEED TO HAVE PATIENCE WITH THIS, TO HAVE A MORE GRADUAL EXERCISE PROGRAM, MAKE SURE YOU'RE GETTING ENOUGH SLEEP BECAUSE THAT'S ONE THING THAT I THINK I PROBABLY NEED TO EMPHASIZE IS THAT MANY PEOPLE WITH THIS SYNDROME ACTUALLY HAVE A SLEEP DISORDER, THEY JUST CAN'T GET ENOUGH REFRESHING SLEEP AND I ASK THEM TO TRY TO GET AS MUCH, KIND OF THE QUALITY SLEEP AS POSSIBLE, KIND OF A GRADED EXERCISE PROGRAM, MAKE SURE YOU'RE NUTRITION IS TAKEN CARE OF, KEEP THEIR LEVEL OF STRESS TO A MINIMUM AND WHEN YOU DO THESE THINGS FROM DIFFERENT ANGLES, I REALLY FEEL VERY HOPEFUL THAT GRADUALLY, NOT OVERNIGHT, BUT GRADUALLY THESE SYMPTOMS, IN MOST PEOPLE, WILL GO AWAY.

>> ARE YOU RECOMMENDING ANYTHING, DR. MANIAN, FROM AN OVER-THE-COUNTER STANDPOINT?

IS THERE ANYTHING THAT SEEMS TO BE WORKING TO ALLEVIATE A LITTLE BIT OF THESE SYMPTOMS?

>> YEAH, THERE'S ABSOLUTELY NO SPECIFIC MEDICATION.

UNFORTUNATELY, AGAIN, I WISH THERE WERE, BUT I THINK RIGHT NOW, WE NEED TO GO BY THE SCIENCE AND RIGHT NOW, THERE ARE A LOT OF STUDIES GOING ON ACROSS THE COUNTRY TO TRY TO FIGURE OUT WHERE SOME SPECIFIC MEDICATIONS MIGHT BE HELPFUL FOR ANY OF THESE SYMPTOMS, BUT CERTAINLY OVER-THE-COUNTER MEDICATIONS, IF YOU HAVE A HEADACHE, SURE, YOU CAN TAKE SOMETHING FOR HEADACHE, BUT IN TERMS OF SPECIFICALLY ADDRESSING THE FATIGUE PART OR SPECIFICALLY ADDRESSING SOME OF THE OTHER GENERALIZED -- YOU KNOW, BRAIN FOG THAT PEOPLE HAVE, COGNITIVE PROBLEMS THEY HAVE, UNFORTUNATELY IT'S ALMOST -- AT THIS TIME, I THINK ALL THESE THINGS NEED TO HEAL INTERNALLY.

WHETHER IT'S SLEEP, NUTRITION, GRADUAL EXERCISE, YOU KNOW, RIGHT NOW WE DO NOT HAVE A SPECIFIC MEDICATION FOR THESE THINGS.

>> DR. FAUCI HAS MENTIONED A MENTAL HEALTH, A POST COVID MENTAL HEALTH PANDEMIC.

WHAT CAN YOU TELL OUR DONNYBROOK VIEWERS ABOUT THAT?

WHAT IS HE TALKING ABOUT?

>> YEAH, I SUSPECT THAT IF HE'S TALKING ABOUT THE COVID, YOU KNOW, ILLNESS ITSELF, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE DO GET QUITE DEPRESSED.

I THINK A CHRONIC FATIGUE ILLNESS CAN BE QUITE DEPRESSING.

THE DEPRESSION ITSELF CAN ALSO LEAD TO MORE SYMPTOMS AND GET IN THIS KIND OF VICIOUS CYCLE.

SOME PEOPLE HAVE DIFFICULTY WITH ANXIETY AFTER HAVING, YOU KNOW, COVID, WHICH THEY DIDN'T HAVE BEFORE.

SO THERE MAY BE SOME, YOU KNOW, SOME KIND OF A DIRECT OR INDIRECT RESULT FROM THE COVID ITSELF THAT CAN HAVE AN IMPACT ON MENTAL HEALTH.

ON THE OTHER HAND, HONESTLY, THERE MAY BE A BROADER PANDEMIC ONLY BECAUSE OF FEAR OF GETTING THIS DISEASE, FEAR OF GETTING IT WHEN A RELATIVE OR FAMILY MEMBER GETS SICK, OR GOD FORBID IF WE LOST A FAMILY MEMBER, I THINK THE ANXIETY IS GOING TO BE THERE LONG AFTER THE ACUTE ILLNESS PANDEMIC IS GONE.

I THINK PEOPLE ARE ALWAYS GOING TO WORRY ABOUT, IS THIS GOING TO COME BACK, YOU KNOW, HOW AM I GOING TO DEAL WITH IT, THE DISRUPTION THAT THE PANDEMIC CAUSED.

I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE -- THE TRAUMA FROM THAT IS GOING TO BE WITH US FOR A WHILE.

SO YEAH, I THINK THERE WILL BE SOME MENTAL HEALTH RAMIFICATIONS TO THIS PANDEMIC FOR A WHILE.

>> DR. MANIAN, AS A SEGUE, WHAT ABOUT YOUR OWN PROFESSION AND DEPRESSION OR THAT BECAUSE -- AND AGAIN, AT THE RISK OF BEING PATRONIZING, I ALWAYS HEAR ABOUT THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE.

I ALWAYS WANT TO SAY THAT TO SOMEBODY WHO WAS A FRONTLINE WORKER IN THIS, AND WHAT WAS REALLY -- YOU ALL WERE TURNED INTO KIND OF A GIANT M.A.S.H.

UNIT OR WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT, AND CERTAINLY WHERE THE PROFESSION ALREADY HAD CERTAIN BURNOUT IN CERTAIN PARTS OF IT, WHAT'S THE FUTURE LOOK LIKE FOR YOUR PROFESSION IN TERMS OF THE IMPACT THIS NIGHTMARE HAS HAD ON IT?

>> YEAH, I THINK IT'S A GREAT QUESTION, AND AGAIN, THAT'S PROBABLY A WORK IN PROGRESS FOR US BECAUSE I THINK -- AND YOU HAVE TO MAKE QUICK DECISIONS, YOU KNOW, WHERE WILL THIS PATIENT BE BEST TREATED, IN THE ICU OR ELSEWHERE.

NURSES, THE FATIGUE THAT COMES WITH SEEING PATIENTS, MENTAL AS WELL AS PHYSICAL FATIGUE, DAY IN, DAY OUT, ESPECIALLY WHEN WE COULDN'T REALLY DO MUCH FOR THEM UNTIL WE GOT MORE EFFECTIVE DRUGS.

ALL THOSE THINGS ARE A REAL PROBLEM.

BURNOUT AMONGST PROFESSIONALS WAS THERE BEFORE THE PANDEMIC, AND NOW I THINK IT JUST ADDED TO THAT.

SO I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT.

I THINK THAT THERE WILL BE, AGAIN, JUST LIKE THE GENERAL POPULATION, I THINK THERE WILL BE LINGERING EFFECTS OF THIS PANDEMIC, YOU KNOW, ON THE PROFESSIONALS WHO ARE ALREADY TRAINED AND ALSO ON THE PROFESSIONALS WHO ARE IN TRAINING BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, WE TALK ABOUT MEDICAL STUDENTS, TALKING ABOUT RESIDENTS AND THEY'RE STARTING TO REALLY GET INTO HOW TO TAKE CARE OF PATIENTS AND THERE WAS A HUGE DISRUPTION IN THAT AS WELL.

SO YEAH, I THINK WE'RE GOING TO BE DEALING WITH THE RAMIFICATIONS OF THIS PANDEMIC NOT ONLY ON THE MENTAL HEALTH OF THE GENERAL POPULATION, BUT ALSO THE PROFESSIONALS.

>> IS THERE AN EFFORT WITHIN THE PROFESSION TO ENCOURAGE MORE YOUNG PEOPLE NOW, BECAUSE OF WHAT YOU JUST DESCRIBED, DESPITE THAT, THERE'S ALSO THE OTHER SIDE OF THAT COIN IS THERE'S MORE OPPORTUNITY, I WOULD GUESS, FOR POSITIONS AND SO FORTH.

IS THERE SOME KIND OF EFFORT BEING MADE TO ENCOURAGE MORE YOUNG PEOPLE TO GET INTO MEDICINE OR GET INTO -- WHETHER IT'S TO BECOME A DOCTOR, A NURSE, TECHNICIAN?

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK IT WAS INTERESTING BECAUSE I'M IN INFECTIOUS DISEASE AND I HAVE TO SEE WHAT THE IMPACT WILL BE ON, FIRST OF ALL, PEOPLE WHO WANT TO DEVOTE THEIR LIVES TO INFECTIOUS DISEASES AND I DON'T KNOW THE A'S TO THAT YET.

I HAVE TO SEE -- THE ANSWER TO THAT YET.

I HAVE TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS TO FELLOWSHIP AND TRAINING PROGRAMS, IF THERE'S MORE APPLICANTS, LESS APPLICANTS.

ON THE OTHER HAND, I KNOW THAT RIGHT AFTER THE PANDEMIC WAS RECOGNIZED GOING INTO 2020, THERE WERE REPORTS OF THIS INCREASING NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO -- APPLICANTS TO MEDICAL SCHOOLS BECAUSE THERE JUST SEEMED TO BE THIS KIND OF NEED TO CARE FOR PEOPLE AND THERE WAS A SHORTAGE OF PHYSICIANS, ESPECIALLY FRONTLINE PHYSICIANS, AND SO THERE WAS -- THAT WAS ACTUALLY VERY POPULAR.

THERE WAS AN UPTICK IN THE NUMBER OF APPLICANTS AT LEAST WHEN I SAW THE REPORTS EARLY IN 2020.

I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S GOING TO CONTINUE, TO BE HONEST.

I THINK WE'LL HAVE TO SEE, BUT I HOPE THAT IT DOES.

I THINK THAT WE HAD A SHORTAGE OF PHYSICIANS BEFORE THE PANDEMIC AND, YOU KNOW, I HOPE THAT THIS PANDEMIC DOESN'T TURN PEOPLE AWAY FROM WHAT I CONSIDER A WONDERFUL PROFESSION.

>> IS YOU'RE JUST JOINING US ON DONNYBROOK NEXT UP, DR. FARRIN MANIAN OF MERCY.

HE IS THE CHAIRMAN OF THE DEPARTMENT OF MEDICINE AND AN INFECTIOUS DISEASE EXPERT, AND WE'RE TALKING OBVIOUSLY ABOUT THE POST-COVID WORLD OR HOPEFULLY WE'RE MOVING OUR WAY TOWARD A POST-COVID WORLD.

AS A SCIENTIST, DOCTOR, BECAUSE WE ARE NOT SCIENTISTS, IS THERE SOMETHING -- AND I WANT TO MAKE SURE I USE THE RIGHT WORD.

I WOULD THINK IT WOULD BE EXHILARATING TO BE CONFRONTED WITH THIS KIND OF CHALLENGE.

OBVIOUSLY YOU NEVER WANT LOSS OF LIFE.

OBVIOUSLY YOU NEVER WANT PEOPLE IN ICUs AND IN NEED OF VENTILATORS, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, TO BE A PART OF THIS MOMENT IN MEDICAL HISTORY, I WOULD THINK WOULD BE REWARDING IN SOME WAY.

>> NO, I AGREE.

I THINK, YOU KNOW, PART OF BEING A SCIENTIST IS KIND OF THE SPIRIT OF CURIOSITY, AND HOW DO I ADVANCE SCIENCE, AND I CAN TELL YOU THAT THERE WERE PLENTY OF THINGS TO WORK ON EVEN IN INFECTIOUS DISEASE BEFORE COVID, BUT WHEN COVID HIT, I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, FROM A VERY SCIENTIFIC STANDPOINT, THERE WAS JUST LIKE THOUSANDS OF PROBLEMS THAT JUST SAID, WE NEED TO BE SOLVED, AND YOU DIDN'T EVEN HAVE TO THINK TOO HARD ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO DO IF YOU'RE ALREADY ASSIGNED TO -- YOU COULD JUST, YOU KNOW, PICK ANYTHING AND THERE WOULD BE NO ANSWER TO THAT.

AND SO YOU COULD BE THE FIRST TO TRY TO ANSWER IT AND REALLY HELP PEOPLE.

AND, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A REASON WE WENT INTO MEDICINE.

WE ALL WENT INTO MEDICINE SO WE CAN REALLY HELP OTHERS.

I MEAN, THAT'S THE CORE OF WHO WE ARE, AND NOW WE'RE GIVEN ALL THESE OPPORTUNITIES, WHETHER IT HAS TO DO WITH POST-COVID, YOU KNOW, PRE-COVID, OR, YOU KNOW, HAVING COVID, ALL THOSE OPPORTUNITIES ALL OF A SUDDEN WAS PRESENTED TO US.

SO YES, IT WAS VERY DISRUPTIVE, IT WAS VERY PRESSING AND ANXIETY-FILLED IN MANY WAYS BECAUSE WE ALSO HAVE TO GO HOME AND WE HAVE FAMILIES, BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, IT REALLY PRESENTED US WITH SO MANY OPPORTUNITIES AND I THINK FROM JUST A PURELY SCIENTIFIC STANDPOINT, THERE WAS A LOT OF EXCITEMENT.

I CAN ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING, AND THE OTHER THING THAT EXCITED, I THINK, MOST PEOPLE IS THERE WAS NO SHORTAGE OF PATIENTS.

YOU COULD ACTUALLY DO STUDIES THAT WOULD ORDINARILY TAKE SEVERAL YEARS TO DO AND NOW YOU HAVE, YOU KNOW, LITERALLY YOUR HOSPITAL MAY HAVE 400 PATIENTS ANY GIVEN TIME.

SO YOU DON'T HAVE TO WAIT SEVERAL YEARS.

YOU COULD LITERALLY WITHIN TWO MONTHS HAVE ENOUGH PATIENTS, HAVE A DRUG YOU THINK IS GOING TO WORK, DO THE RIGHT STUDIES AND GET THE ANSWER.

I MEAN, THAT WAS JUST LITERALLY UNHEARD OF BEFORE.

SO EVERYTHING WAS ON FAST TRACK, WHICH IS WONDERFUL, BECAUSE WE HAD, YOU KNOW, THE RESOURCES IN MANY INSTANCES AND WE HAD THE PATIENTS THAT WERE WONDERFUL ENOUGH AND GRACIOUS ENOUGH TO SIGN UP ON THESE VARIOUS STUDIES AND, YOU KNOW, I DON'T THINK IT'S PURE COINCIDENCE THAT WE WERE ABLE TO GET THE ANSWERS AS QUICKLY AS WE DID.

VACCINATION SAME WAY.

IT'S LIKE WE HAD TONS OF PEOPLE THAT VOLUNTEERED FOR VACCINATION.

WE DIDN'T REALLY HAVE TO, YOU KNOW, TWIST A LOT OF PEOPLE'S ARMS AND WE HAD ENOUGH PEOPLE THAT WE GOT OUR ANSWERS RELATIVELY QUICKLY.

SO IT'S JUST A VERY -- YOU'RE RIGHT.

I MEAN, THIS IS AN EVERY-100-YEAR PANDEMIC AND A DISRUPTIVE, ANXIETY-FILLED EVENT THAT IT WAS, I THINK IT ALSO PROVIDED US WITH A LOT OF OPPORTUNITIES FOR THE SCIENTISTS TO COLLABORATE AND, YOU KNOW, GET ALL THE FORCE OF TOGETHER AND THEN COME UP WITH REASONABLE ANSWERS THAT ACTUALLY MAKES A DIFFERENCE IN BOTH TREATMENT AS WELL AS PREVENTION OF THIS DISEASE.

>> DR. MANIAN, IS IT AN EVERY-100-YEAR PANDEMIC?

AS SOMEONE WHO HAD STUDIED AND UNDERSTANDS INFECTIOUS DISEASES -- >> YEAH, I THINK -- I HAVE TO TELL YOU THAT 25, 30 YEARS AGO WHEN I WAS DOING FULL-TIME INFECTIOUS DISEASE, I ALWAYS ASKED MY OLDER PATIENTS WHO LIVED THROUGH 1918 INFLUENZA PANDEMIC, WHAT IT WAS LIKE BECAUSE I KNEW THAT I WAS NEVER GOING TO SEE A PANDEMIC TO THAT MAGNITUDE BECAUSE IT WAS THE -- THE PANDEMIC OF THE CENTURY, 1918.

AND HERE WE ARE.

I MEAN, IT'S BEEN -- IT WAS OVER 100 YEARS LATER.

I MEAN, THERE WERE PANDEMICS OF DIFFERENT SIZES, BUT REALLY NOTHING LIKE THIS.

SO I THINK THE MAGNITUDE, THE EXTENT AND LEVEL OF DESTRUCTION THAT IT CAUSED, IT'S NOT MATCHED BY ANYTHING ELSE WE'VE SEEN IN OUR LIFETIME.

>> ALONG THOSE LINES OF UNEXPECTED THINGS, I'M GOING TO GUESS THAT WHEN YOU WENT INTO THIS NOBLE SPECIALTY OF INFECTIOUS DISEASES, YOU WEREN'T, LIKE, MINORING IN POLITICAL SCIENCE.

AND YET, THE POLITICS OF THIS, REGARDLESS OF WHAT SIDE YOU MIGHT BE ON, HAVE BEEN REALLY VERY MUCH A PART OF THIS STORY.

>> RIGHT, RIGHT.

>> TALK ABOUT THAT.

>> RIGHT.

YOU KNOW, I HAVE TO ADMIT, I BECAME MORE AWARE OF THE POLITICS EVEN BEFORE THIS COVID PANDEMIC AND IT HAD TO DO WITH VACCINATIONS.

YOU KNOW, LITERALLY A FEW YEARS AGO, I JUST -- I JUST KIND OF PULLED MY HAIR AND I SAID, YOU KNOW, I NEVER THOUGHT I'D HAVE TO EXPLAIN WHY VACCINATION IS SO IMPORTANT.

AND THIS WAS BEFORE THE PANDEMIC.

AND I TALKED TO EXPERTS WHO HAVE DONE MORE RESEARCH ON THIS THAN I HAVE, AND YOU KNOW, WE DIDN'T HAVE AN ANSWER.

WE DIDN'T REALLY HAVE AN ANSWER WHY PEOPLE, DESPITE THE SCIENCE, WERE SO HESITANT AND THEN, YOU KNOW, THIS PANDEMIC HIT AND THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN, LIKE YOU SAID, IT BECAME REALLY POLITICIZED.

AND SO IT ALMOST SEEMS LIKE SCIENCE DOESN'T MATTER, YOU KNOW.

IT REALLY DOESN'T MATTER WHAT WE DO TO TRY TO REALLY GET TO THE TRUTH, THAT, YOU KNOW, OPINIONS SOMETIMES MATTER MORE, WHICH IS NOT RIGHT.

YOU KNOW, AND I THINK THE PANDEMIC REALLY KIND OF BROUGHT OUT THE DIVIDE THAT THERE EXISTS IN OUR COUNTRY, I THINK, UNFORTUNATELY.

I DON'T THINK SCIENCE SHOULD EVER BE POLITICIZED.

I DON'T THINK CDC SHOULD EVER BE POLITICIZED.

IT'S IN A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CATEGORY IN OUR ASSOCIATE AND THEY -- IN OUR SOCIETY AND THEY NEED TO STAY AWAY FROM EACH OTHER IF WE'RE GOING TO DO THE RIGHT THING FOR THE MASSES OF PEOPLE.

>> I AGREE WITH THAT, DOCTOR.

TO HAVE THE MEDICAL PERSONNEL IN THE EARLY DAYS OF THE PANDEMIC REPORTING IN A PRESS CONFERENCE TYPE ATMOSPHERE INSTEAD OF BEING SEPARATE AT A SEPARATE FACILITY LIKE THE CDC, THAT MIGHT HAVE CURED A LOT OF THE PROBLEMS THAT WE'VE SEEN.

DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THIS, FROM WHAT YOU KNOW AT THIS POINT, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THIS WAS A LAB ACCIDENT IN WUHAN?

DO YOU BELIEVE IT ORIGINATED IN THE WET MARKETS?

I KNOW THAT IS -- IF YOU CAN ANSWER THAT, WE'VE GOT A BIG HEADLINE TOMORROW.

>> YEAH, THAT'S -- YOU KNOW, THAT'S A REALLY INTERESTING, REALLY INTERESTING QUESTION BECAUSE I'M JUST WONDERING, YOU KNOW, WHEN WE HAD -- THERE WERE OTHER DISEASES, KIND OF CORONAVIRUSES THAT GOT INTO THE POPULATION AS YOU RECALL, THERE WAS THE SARS VIRUS THAT HIT THE POPULATION EARLY IN 2000 AND AGAIN ORIGINATEDS IN SOUTHEAST ASIAN AND IT WAS THOUGHT TO BE RELATED TO BATS THROUGH THESE, YOU KNOW, THESE CIVIT CATS AND HUMANS.

AND THERE WAS THE MERS VIRUS, THE MIDEASTERN VIRUS.

NOBODY EVER RAISED THE QUESTION WAS THIS AN ACCIDENT, TO MY KNOWLEDGE.

THAT MAKES SENSE, BATS MAYBE CARRYING -- THEY'RE MAMMALS AND THEY CARRY A LOT OF VIRUSES THAT ARE VERY SIMILAR TO CORONAVIRUSES AND THERE ARE MILLIONS OF THEM, SO THEY CAN SIMPLY HAVE MUTATION OF VIRUSES AND THEY CAN POTENTIALLY HAVE CONTACT WITH THESE ANIMALS AND THEN WE HAVE CONTACT WITH THESE ANIMALS SO WE GET IT BECAUSE WE'RE MAMMALS AS WELL.

THAT'S NEVER REALLY -- THAT QUESTION OF LAB ACCIDENT WAS NEVER RAISED DURING THESE TWO OTHER CORONAVIRUSES, WHICH I THINK IS KIND OF FASCINATING.

BUT THIS ONE, I THINK, IT'S BEING RAISED AND I HAVE NO IDEA.

YOU KNOW, RIGHT NOW, I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE PREMISE FOR THAT IS.

I'M JUST NOT HAVING ALL THAT INFORMATION WITH ME.

>> SADLY, DOCTOR, WE HAVE TO END IT THERE.

I'M SURE WE'LL INVITE YOU BACK TO APPEAR ON NEXT UP, BUT DR. FARRIN MANIAN, INFECTIOUS DISEASE SPECIALIST AND THE CHAIRMAN OF THE DEPARTMENT OF MEDICINE AT MERCY, ON BEHALF OF ALL OF US AT DONNYBROOK AND DONNYBROOK NEXT UP, WE THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

I APPRECIATE THE TIME.

>> THANK YOU ALL FOR WATCHING.

ON BEHALF OF RAY HARTMANN AND OUR DONNYBROOK COLLEAGUES, KEEP IT RIGHT HERE ON NINE PBS.

HAVE A WONDERFUL EVENING.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Announcer: DONNYBROOK IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE SUPPORT OF THE BETSY AND THOMAS PATTERSON FOUNDATION AND THE MEMBERS OF NINE PBS.