>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON": CONGRESSMEN JAKE AUCHINCLOSS AND SETH MOULTON JOIN ME ON ALL THINGS PARTISAN GRIDLOCK AND IF THEY, BOTH FORMER THINGS PARTISAN GRIDLOCK AND IF THEY, BOTH FORMER MARINES, ARE CONVINCED WE'LL PULL AT-RISK TRANSLATORS AND OTHERS WHO HELPED OUR TROOPS OUT OF AFGHANISTAN BEFORE WE PULL ALL OUR TROOPS OUT.

PLUS, THEIR THOUGHTS ON DONALD RUMSFELD, THE DEFENSE SECRETARY WHO OVERSAW THE BEGINNING OF THE IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN WARS, WHO DIED YESTERDAY AT 88.

THEN, LATER, BILL COSBY IS NOW OUT OF PRISON AFTER THE PENNSYLVANIA SUPREME COURT THREW OUT HIS CONVICTION.

WHY DID THIS HAPPEN, AND WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR SURVIVORS?

♪♪ >> Braude: THE FUTURE OF PRESIDENT BIDEN'S COMPROMISE INFRASTRUCTURE PLAN IS MURKY, AT BEST.

A BIPARTISAN POLICE REFORM BILL IS STILL VERY MUCH UP IN THE AIR, AND SENATE REPUBLICANS HAVE ALREADY BLOCKED A SWEEPING ELECTION REFORM AND VOTING RIGHTS EFFORT THE HOUSE PASSED IN MARCH.

BUT THERE IS ONE THING MOVING FORWARD THAT'S ACTUALLY AHEAD OF SCHEDULE: THE U.S. WITHDRAWAL FROM AFGHANISTAN.

THE MILITARY IS REPORTEDLY JUST DAYS AWAY FROM PULLING OUT ALL BUT 1,000 TROOPS, WHO ARE SET TO REMAIN IN THE COUNTRY TO HELP SECURE THE AIRPORT AND THE U.S. EMBASSY IN THE CAPITAL CITY, KABUL.

AND WHILE IN A RECENT OVAL OFFICE MEETING, JOE BIDEN ASSURED THE AFGHAN PRESIDENT, ASHRAF GHANI, THAT HIS COUNTRY CAN STILL COUNT ON U.S. SUPPORT, THE AFGHAN LEADER EMPHASIZED THE DANGERS THAT AMERICAN TROOPS ARE LEAVING BEHIND.

>> AFGHANS ARE GOING TO HAVE TO DECIDE THEIR FUTURE OF WHAT THEY -- WHAT THEY WANT.

BUT WE'RE GOING TO STICK WITH YOU, AND WE'RE GOING TO DO OUR BEST TO SEE TO IT YOU HAVE THE TOOLS YOU NEED.

>> PRESIDENT BIDEN'S DECISION HAS BEEN HISTORIC.

IT HAS MADE EVERYBODY RECALCULATE AND RECONSIDER.

WE ARE HERE TO RESPECT IT AND SUPPORT IT.

THE AFGHAN NATION IS IN AN 1861 MOMENT, LIKE PRESIDENT LINCOLN, RALLYING TO THE DEFENSE OF THE REPUBLIC, DETERMINED THAT THE REPUBLIC IS DEFENDED.

>> Braude: IN OTHER WORDS, THE BEGINNING OF AN ALL-OUT CIVIL WAR.

AND WHEN U.S.

TROOPS ARE GONE, THERE'S SERIOUS CONCERN THAT THE AFGHANS WHO HELP THEM WILL BE TARGETED BY THE TALIBAN.

IN AN AD FOR THE GROUP VOTE-VETS, ONE FORMER INTERPRETER FROM IRAQ, WHO WAS ABLE TO COME TO THE U.S. AFTER TROOPS PULLED OUT OF THE BASE WHERE HE SERVED, CALLS ON THE COUNTRY TO PROTECT THESE INTERPRETERS, TOO.

>> IT TOOK MANY YEARS, BUT NOW I'M A U.S. CITIZEN.

THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF INTERPRETERS IN AFGHANISTAN WHO DON'T HAVE YEARS TO WAIT.

AS YOU WITHDRAW AMERICAN TROOPS FROM AFGHANISTAN, DO RIGHT FOR THE AFGHAN MEN AND WOMEN WHO SERVED LOYALLY BESIDE THEM.

TAKE THEM, TOO.

>> Braude: TWO BILLS BEFORE CONGRESS, THE "ALLIES ACT" AND THE "HONORING OUR PROMISES EXPEDITION FOR AFGHAN SPECIAL IMMIGRANT VISAS," OR "HOPE FOR S.I.V.s" ACT, WOULD MAKE IT FASTER AND EASIER FOR THOSE INTERPRETERS TO COME TO THE U.S.

I'M JOINED NOW BY TWO OF THE BILLS' CO-SPONSORS, BOTH FORMER MARINES, CONGRESSMAN SETH MOULTON OF MASSACHUSETTS' SIXTH DISTRICT, WHO SERVED IN IRAQ, AND CONGRESSMAN JAKE AUCHINCLOSS OF DISTRICT FOUR, WHO SERVED IN AFGHANISTAN.

>> Braude: CONGRESSMEN, THANK YOU BOTH FOR BEING HERE.

I APPRECIATE IT.

>> GOOD TO BE HERE.

>> Braude: BEFORE WE GET TO AFGHANISTAN, JUST FOR A MINUTE, I WANT TO TALK ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED TODAY, CONGRESSMAN MOULTON, THE HOUSE PASSED A MEASURE IMPLEMENTING A SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE JANUARY 6th, AFTER THE FAILURE OF THE BIPARTISAN COMMITTEE AND THE SENATE.

VIRTUALLY ALL DEMOCRATIC VOTES, ONLY A COUPLE OF REPUBLICAN VOTES.

WON'T THE PUBLIC SEE WHATEVER COMES OUT OF THIS SELECT COMMITTEE AS JUST A PARTISAN HIT JOB ON DONALD TRUMP AT THE END OF THE DAY?

>> NO.

I THINK THE PUBLIC KNOWS IT IS REPUBLICANS WHO ARE PLAYING POLITICS.

THAT'S WHY 35 REPUBLICANS IN THE HOUSE VOTED FOR THE BIPARTISAN COMMISSION PROPOSED A FEW WEEKS AGO.

WE GOT FEWER VOTES TODAY BECAUSE MORE REPUBLICANS HAVE RALLIED FOR THE DEFENSE OF DONALD TRUMP.

BUT WHAT WE SHOULD BE DEFENDING IS THE CONSTITUTION AND OUR FUNDAMENTAL VALUES, AND THE RIGHT OF AMERICANS TO VOTE AND HAVE THEIR VOTES COUNTED IN OUR ELECTION.

>> Braude: CONGRESSMAN AUCHINCLOSS, IS THERE ANY SENSE THAT THE REPUBLICAN LEADER, McCARTHY, WHO THOUGHT DONALD TRUMP WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR JANUARY 6th, BEFORE HE CONCLUDED HE WASN'T RESPONSIBLE FOR JANUARY 6th, IS IT EVEN CLEAR HE'LL APPOINT ANY MEMBERS TO THIS SELECT COMMITTEE?

>> McCARTHY HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO ENGAGE PRODUCTIVELY IN THIS COMMISSION, AND HE CHOSE TRUMP.

THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE OWED ACCOUNTABILITY AND TRANSPARENCY OVER THE ATTACK OF OUR DEMOCRACY.

WITH OR WITHOUT REPUBLICAN SUPPORT, WE'RE GOING TO PRESENT A EMPIRICAL REPORT OF WHAT HAPPENED.

>> Braude: I WANT TO FOCUS ON WHAT IS HAPPENING IN OOOH AF, AFGHANISTAN WITH YOUR PERMISSION.

YOU HEARD PRESIDENT AFGHANI.

AND HE SAID SILVER HE SAID CIVIL WAR IS A PATH THAT COULD BE ON.

I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE WITHDRAWAL OF THE MEN AND WOMEN WHO HELPED PEOPLE LIKE YOU TWO DO YOUR JOBS, DRIVERS, ENGINEERS, TRANSLATORS, THOSE SORT OF THINGS.

CONGRESSMAN MOULTON, YOU AND A BUNCH OF YOUR COLLEAGUES SENT A LETTER TO THE PRESIDENT SAYING, LET'S GET WITH IT, LET'S PROTECT THESE PEOPLE.

IT APPEARS BASED ON THE LAST COUPLE OF DAYS THAT THE PRESIDENT IS LISTENING, NO?

>> YES, THAT'S RIGHT.

IT IS CLEAR, BASED ON THE PAST FEW WEEKS, THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THE ADMINISTRATION WHO AGREE WITH US ON THIS.

SECRETARY AUSTIN AND THE CHAIRMAN OF CHIEF-OF-STAFF CAME BEFORE US, AND GENERAL MILLY SAID WE HAVE A MORAL IMPERATIVE TO GET THESE GUYS OUT.

AND WE DON'T HAVE TIME FOR THE SPECIAL VISA TO WORK.

IT TAKES 800 DAYS TO GET A SINGLE VISA.

AND IT IS ONLY 80 DAYS FOR A SINGLE WITHDRAWAL.

>> Braude: THE HOUSE PASSED A BILL THAT WOULD SPEED UP THIS PROCESS.

IT SEEMS TO ME AS A PERSON WHO DOESN'T HAVE JOUR YOUR BACKGROUND, JUST A CITIZEN IN THIS COUNTRY, THE GOAL IS NOT TO PROTECT THESE 18,000 PEOPLE AND THEIR FAMILIES, MAYBE AS MANY AS 80,000, BUT TO ENSURE PEOPLE TO HELP US IN THE FUTURE, THAT THEY CAN TRUST US.

BUT IN LIGHT OF THE FACT THIS IS AN 11th HOUR SITUATION, COMING AFTER WE ABANDONED THE KURDS UNDER DONALD TRUMP, ARE YOU WORRIED THAT TRUST IN THE UNITED STATES, REGARDLESS OF WHAT WE DO HERE IS FRAYED?

>> TRUST IS EXACTLY THE RIGHT WORD.

I REMEMBER AS A PLATOON COMMANDER, I WOULD GO HOME TO HOME AND ASK FOR HELP, ASK FOR HELP FROM THE AHEAD OF THE FAMILIES, ASK FOR HELP FROM THE VILLAGE ELDERS, ASK FOR HELP FROM THE AFGHAN UNIFORMS AND THE INTERPRETERS, AND WITH THAT ASK FOR HELP CAME AN IMPLICIT PROMISE THAT AMERICANS WERE GOING TO BE THERE ON THE OTHER SIDE AS WELL.

AND WE NEED TO HONOR THAT PROMISE.

AS YOU SAID, UNDER PRESIDENT TRUMP, WE DISHONORED THAT COMMITMENT WITH THE KURDS, AND WE CANNOT REPEAT THAT IN AFGHANISTAN.

>> Braude: I THINK, CONGRESSMAN MOULTON, MOST OF US WHO HAVEN'T LIVED THROUGH WHAT YOU TWO LIVED THROUGH, DON'T EVEN UNDERSTAND WHAT THESE RELATIONSHIPS WERE.

I HOPE I'M NOT CONFUSING PEOPLE.

WE TALKED A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO, YOU AND I, ABOUT YOUR TRANSLATOR ND THE CLOSE RELATIONSHIP YOU HAD.

I THINK HIS NAME WAS MUHAMMAD.

AND I THINK YOU HAD A RADIO SHOW CALLED "MOULTON AND MUHAMMED"?

>> IT WAS A TV SHOW.

>> Braude: CAN YOU EXPLAIN HOW CRITICAL THAT RELATIONSHIP IS TO MEN AND WOMEN WHO DO WHAT YOU DID?

>> WE SPENT EVERY MINUTE OF THE WORKING DAY TOGETHER.

I PUT MY LIFE IN HIS HAND; HE PUT HIS LIFE IN MINE.

AND WE BECAME THE CLOSEST OF FRIENDS BECAUSE OF THAT TRUST THAT WE HAD TO DO OUR JOBS.

WHEN HIS FAMILY WAS THREATENED, AND HIS LIFE WAS THREATENED, HE CAME TO ME AND SAID, WHAT DO YOU THINK I SHOULD DO?

AND I MADE THE CASE THAT HE SHOULD CONTINUE IN HIS WORK BECAUSE IT WOULD HELP HIS PEOPLE, IT WOULD HELP US.

I PROMISED HIM TO HAVE HIS BACK.

WE HAVE MADE THAT PROMISE TO ALL OF THESE INTERPRETERS.

JUST TO PUT IT IN STARK TERMS FOR EVERYBODY, WHAT A POTENTIAL CIVIL WAR IN AFGHANISTAN MEANS, IF THE TALIBAN TAKES OVER, THEY WILL SEEK OUT ALL OF OUR ALLIES, THE PEOPLE WHO SERVED ALONGSIDE US, PEOPLE LIKE MUHAMMAD, AND THEY WILL KILL THEM.

AND IF THEY CAN, THEY WILL RAPE AND MURDER THEIR KIDS AND WIVES IN FRONT OF THEM FIRST.

THAT'S WHAT THE TALIBAN DOES.

THAT'S THE PROMISE THAT THEY HAVE MADE MADE TO THESE AMERICAN ALLIES.

THEY'RE NOT JUST AFGHAN HEROS, THEY'RE AMERICAN HEROS, TOO, AND WE'VE GOT TO GET THEM OUT IMMEDIATELY.

>> Braude: AND EVEN IF ALL OF THIS PROCESSING CAN'T BE DONE IN TIME, YOU, AND APPARENTLY THE PRESIDENT, SUPPORT THE NOTION THEY BE TAKEN SOMEWHERE, A SAFE HARBOR, WHILE ALL OF THIS PROCESSING GOES ON.

GUAM WOULD BE ONE OPTION.

MY UNDERSTANDING IS YOU BOTH SUPPORT THIS WITHDRAWAL, MAYBE WITH SOME CAVEATS, BUT EVEN IF THE INTERPRETERS AND THEIR FAMILIES ARE GONE, CONGRESSMAN MOULTON, THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE LEFT BEHIND.

ROZIA, WHO OPENED A GIRLS SCHOOL, ONE OF THE MOST INSPIRING STORIES EVER HEARD -- WHAT HAPPENS TO GIRLS AND WOMEN IF THE TALIBAN CONTINUES THIS OVERRUNNING OF THE GOVERNMENT IN AFGHANISTAN, CONGRESSMAN MOULTON?

>> THEIR FREE LIVES WILL END.

THEY WON'T BE ABLE TO GO TO SCHOOL OR PARTICIPATE IN THE ECONOMY OR THE GOVERNMENT.

THAT IS PRETTY MUCH A CERTAIN.

THAT IS A TOUGH PILL TO SWALLOW FOR SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN VERY CRITICAL OF THIS WAR BUT ALSO RECOGNIZES THE GOOD THAT AMERICA HAS BEEN ABLE TO DO.

IT IS CLEAR THE PRESIDENT IS GOING TO WITHDRAW.

THERE IS NO CHANGING HIS MIND ABOUT THAT.

THERE IS NO ARGUING TO KEEP A FEW MORE TROOPS TO GIVE THE AFGHAN GOVERNMENT A BETTER CHANCE HERE.

SO WE HAVE TO EXECUTE THE MOST HONORABLE WITHDRAWAL THAT WE CAN, AND THAT MEANS SAVING AS MANY ALLIES FROM CERTAIN EXECUTION AT THE HANDS OF THE TALIBAN BEFORE THAT HAPPENS.

SOME PEOPLE IN THE ADMINISTRATION SEEM TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT THE IMAGE OF A MASS WITHDRAWAL.

I CAN ASSURE YOU THAT THE IMAGE OF A MASS SLAUGHTER WOULD BE FAR WORSE.

>> Braude: CONGRESSMAN AUCHINCLOSS, THE MAN WHO ORCHESTRATED ALL OF THIS, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE RUMSFELD, BOTH IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN INVASIONS, DIED IN THE LAST 24 HOURS.

WHAT IS RUMSFELD'S LEGACY?

>> WELL, HE WAS IN PUBLIC SERVICE FOR MANY DECADES, AND HE IS GOING TO HAVE A MULTI-FACETED LEGACY.

BUT HIS LEGACY AS IT RELATES TO AFGHANISTAN AND IRAQ IS ENGAGING THE UNITED STATES IN TWO FAILED FOREVER WARS, TWO WARS THAT WE SPENT DECADES ON, SUNK $6 TRILLION AND TENS OF THOUSANDS OF LIVES INTO WITHOUT EVER GIVING THE MILITARY A CLEAR MISSION THAT IT COULD ACTUALLY EXECUTE.

IT IS A TESTAMENT TO POLITICAL BUNGLING THAT COST AMERICA STANDING ON THE WORLD STAGE, AND IT COST LIVES AND TREASURE.

NOW WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS REPAIR AMERICA'S GLOBAL STANDING.

WE DO THAT WITH A MARTIAL PLAN FOR VACCINATIONS, WE DO THAT WITH INCREASED FOCUS ON CLIMATE, BUT WE NEED TO LEARN THE LESSONS OF THESE FOREVER WARS AND ENSURE THAT OUR FOREIGN POLICY IS NOT GOING TO BE A MILITARY FIRST ONE.

>> Braude: I WANT TO RETURN TO THE LESSONS VERY BRIEFLY IN A SECOND, BUT QUICKLY, CONGRESSMAN MOULTON, YOUR THOUGHTS ON RUMSFELD?

>> PART OF HIS LEGACY IS WHAT YOU SEE HERE TODAY, A GENERATION OF DEMOCRATIC VETERANS WHO HAVE DECIDED TO RUN FOR OFFICE TO TRY TO CHANGE IT.

I HAVE NO INTENTION OF BEING IN PUBLIC SERVICE WHEN I WENT INTO THE MARINES.

IN FACT, THE FIRST JOB I TOOK WHEN I GOT OUT WAS IN DALLAS, TEXAS.

WHICH IS NOT WHERE YOU MOVE IF YOU'RE PLANNING TO RUN FOR OFFICE IN MASSACHUSETTS.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, I DECIDED TO RUN BECAUSE OF THE FAILED LEADERSHIP IN WASHINGTON THAT GOT US INTO IRAQ.

I SAID, YOU KNOW WHAT?

IF PEOPLE LIKE US WHO UNDERSTAND THIS ON A VISCERAL LEVEL, DON'T RUN FOR OFFICE, IT WILL NEVER CHANGE.

>> Braude: CONGRESSMAN AUCHINCLOSS, THE LESSONS, WE KNOW WHAT HAPPENED IN AFGHANISTAN, AMERICA'S LONGEST WAR.

AND ON THE HEELS AT THE TIME OF THIS WITHDRAWAL, AND WHILE WE'RE DISCUSSING HELPING PEOPLE WHO HELPED US, THE PRESIDENT ORDERS AN AIRSTRIKE OVER THE WEEKEND ON THESE IRAN-BACKED MALITIAS, WHICH LEADS A LOT OF PEOPLE TO ASK WHETHER PRESIDENTS HAVE LEARNED ANYTHING ABOUT UNILATERAL ACTION, IN WHETHER THEY BELIEVE IN ACTUALLY CONSULTING CONGRESS, AS I BELIEVE THEY ARE MANDATED TO DO?

OR IS IT MORE OF THE SAME?

CONGRESSMAN MOULTON FIRST.

>> I DON'T THINK THERE IS ANY QUESTION THAT CONGRESS' AUTHORITY OVER WAR AND PEACE HAS BEEN ERODED, PARTLY BY THE UNWILLINGNESS OF MEMBERS OF CONGRESS TO STEP UP AND EXERCISE THIS AUTHORITY.

MY UNDERSTANDING OF THE AIRSTRIKES IS THEIR LEGAL, BUT WE HAVE TO LOOK CAREFULLY AT THAT.

LOOK, ONE OF THE KEY LESSONS ABOUT THIS WHOLE EXPERIENCE IN THE LAST TWO DECADES IS THAT THESE WARS ARE A LOT HARDER TO GET OUT OF THAN THEY ARE TO GET INTO.

AND THE REASON WHY THE FOUNDING FATHERS PUT THE DECISIONS ABOUT GOING TO WAR, ABOUT PUTTING OUR YOUNG LIVES AT RISK IN THE HANDS OF THE CONGRESS, IS SO THEY WILL TAKE THIS SERIOUSLY.

I HOPE WE TAKE IT MUCH MORE SERIOUSLY IN THE FUTURE.

>> Braude: ARE THERE LESSONS LEARNED, CONGRESSMAN AUCHINCLOSS?

>> YES.

AND AS SETH MOULTON SAID, THEY'RE BEING LEARNED AND APPLIED BY OUR GENERATION, ESPECIALLY THE VETERANS.

WE NEED TO REPEAL AND REPLACE THE AUTHORIZATION OF THE MILITARY FORCE, AND CLAIM THE WAR POWERS FROM THE EXECUTIVE BACK TO CONGRESS, AND I BELIEVE WE NEED TO CUT THE PENTAGON'S BUDGET AND TO REALLOCATE THOSE FUNDS TOWARDS INITIATIVES LIKE CLIMATE RESILIENCE, GLOBAL PUBLIC HEALTH AND HUMANITARIAN AID THAT TRULY PREVENT CONFLICT.

>> Braude: THANK YOU BOTH SO MUCH FOR YOUR SERVICE AND YOUR TIME.

I APPRECIATE YOU GENTLEMEN.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU, JIM.

>> Braude: FOR DECADES BILL COSBY WAS KNOWN AS AMERICA'S DAD FOR HIS ROLE AS CLIFF HUXTABLE ON THE "COSBY SHOW."

THEN CAME A FLOOD OF CREDIBLE SEXUAL ASSAULT ALLEGATIONS FROM DOZENS OF WOMEN, MANY OF WHOM TOLD A SIMILAR STORY OF BEING DRUGGED AND THEN RAPED BY THE ACTOR.

MOST OF THE STATUTES OF LIMITATIONS HAD PASSED FOR HIS MANY SURVIVORS TO PRESS CRIMINAL CHARGES, BUT THE LIMITATIONS HADN'T PASSED FOR ONE ACCUSER IN PHILADELPHIA, ANDREA CONSTAND.

AND USING AN UNSEALED DEPOSITION COSBY GAVE IN A CIVIL SUIT CONSTAND HAD BROUGHT AGAINST HIM YEARS EARLIER, PROSECUTORS BROUGHT CHARGES AGAINST HIM DAYS BEFORE TIME RAN OUT.

THAT CASE WENT TO TRIAL AND IN 2018 COSBY WAS CONVICTED OF THREE COUNTS OF AGGRAVATED, INDECENT ASSAULT AND SENTENCED UP TO 10 YEARS IN PRISON.

BUT COSBY VOWED HE WOULD NEVER ADMIT GUILT AND KEPT PURSUING LEGAL AVENUES TO OVERTURN HIS CONVICTIONS.

AND TODAY PENNSYLVANIA'S HIGHEST COURT DID JUST THAT, ONLY TWO YEARS INTO HIS SENTENCE, AND COSBY WAS RELEASED FROM PRISON.

THE COURT FOCUSED ON A FORMER PROSECUTOR, AND LATER TO GAIN NATIONAL ATTENTION LEADING TRUMP'S SECOND IMPEACHMENT DEFENSE, PROMISING NOT TO BRING CRIMINAL CHARGES TO ENCOURAGE COSBY TO GIVE THE DEPOSITION INCRIMINATING HIMSELF, THAT WAS LATER USED IN THE 2018 TRIAL.

AND THE JUSTICES DECIDED FUTURE PROSECUTORS HAD TO HONOR THAT DEAL.

HERE IS WHAT AN ATTORNEY FOR SOME OF COSBY'S ACCUSERS HAD TO SAY: >> WELL, I'M GLAD HE GOT SOME TIME SERVED.

I REALLY AM.

BUT IF YOU THINK -- I BELIEVE IT'S MORE THAN 60 OR 70 WOMEN IN TOTAL THAT HAVE ACCUSED HIM.

HE GOT TO HAVE A GOOD, LONG LIFE OF WEALTH AND PRIVILEGE BEFORE HE WAS HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR HIS CRIMES.

SO IT WAS ONLY A VERY TINY, TINY MEASURE OF JUSTICE THAT HE SHOULD HAVE RECEIVED.

>> Braude: JOINING ME TO DISCUSS ARE FORMER ACTRESS AND MODEL HELEN GUMPEL, WHO HAS ACCUSED BILL COSBY OF MAKING UNWANTED SEXUAL ADVANCES AND LEWD GESTURES TOWARD HER, INCLUDING STANDING IN FRONT OF HER WITH HIS CROTCH IN HER FACE WHILE SHE WAS ONSET OF THE "COSBY SHOW" IN 1987, AND FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY FOR MASSACHUSETTS, CARMEN ORTIZ, NOW WITH ANDERSON AND KREIGER L.L.C.

>> Braude: CARMEN AND HELEN, GOOD TO SEE YOU BOTH.

THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

>> GOOD TO BE HERE.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Braude: CARMEN, CAN I START WITH YOU?

I FOLLOWED THE TESTIMONY IN THIS TRIAL PRETTY CLOSELY AND CAME AWAY CONVINCED HE WAS NOT JUST A SEXUAL PREDATOR, BUT A SERIAL SEXUAL PREDATOR.

BUT BRUCE CASTOR, THE FORMER PROSECUTOR, WHO WENT ON TO DEFEND TRUMP, DID CUT A DEAL WITH HIM SAYING HE WOULDN'T PROSECUTE, AND COSBY DID RELY ON THAT DEAL TO GIVE TESTIMONY IN THE CIVIL TRIAL THAT I SAID WAS SELF-INCRIMINATING.

DID THE SUPREME COURT NOT MAKE THE RIGHT DECISION IN PENNSYLVANIA?

THE SUPREME COURT, AS PAINFUL AS THAT MAY BE?

>> WELL, I THINK PROCEDURALLY THEY DID MAKE THE RIGHT DECISION IN TERMS OF THAT PROSECUTOR SHOULD BE HELD TO HIS WORD.

HIS AGREEMENT IS A FAIRNESS ISSUE.

IT IS A DUE PROCESS ISSUE.

AND HE AGREED THAT HE WOULD NOT BE PROSECUTED IF HE COOPERATED AND PARTICIPATED IN THAT CIVIL TRIAL.

IT WAS BECAUSE OF THAT CIVIL CASE THAT HE PROVIDED THE TESTIMONY THAT EVENTUALLY LED TO HIS CONVICTION IN THE CRIMINAL CASE.

>> Braude: I HEARD FROM A LOT OF PEOPLE TODAY SAYING HOW OUTRAGEOUS IT WAS THAT BRUCE CASTOR, THIS FORMER PROSECUTOR, MADE THIS DEAL TO BEGIN WITH.

BUT HIS CONTENTION WAS HE DIDN'T HAVE THE EVIDENCE IN 2005 TO PROSECUTE, AND THAT'S WHY HE, QUOTE, "ENCOURAGED" COSBY TO TESTIFY BY GIVING HIM IMMUNITY.

CAN YOU IMAGINE YOURSELF, UNDER SIMILAR CIRCUMSTANCES, HAVING MADE THE SAME KIND OF DEAL, AS DISTASTEFUL AS IT MAY HAVE FETAL?

>> UNFORTUNATELY, WHEN YOU HAVE NOTHING, YOU TRY TO LOOK FOR SOMETHING.

I KNOW PEOPLE CRITICIZED THE DEALS WE MADE IN THE WHITEY BULGER CASE.

THEY'RE DISTASTEFUL, THEY'RE HORRIBLE, BUT WHAT YOU GET AT THE END OF THE DAY -- MANY OF THESE CASES WERE VERY DIFFICULT TO MAKE.

NOW THAT SAID, WHAT IS SURPRISING HERE IS THAT THE COURT, I THINK, HAS REMOVED THE ABILITY TO RETRY THIS CASE AND HAS BASICALLY PUT AN END TO IT, RATHER THAN SUPPRESSING THE EVIDENCE THAT THEY SAY WAS A RESULT OF UNFAIRNESS AND UNDO PROCESS.

>> Braude: I WANT TO GET BACK TO THAT IN A SECOND.

HELEN, I WANT TO TURN TO YOU.

WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION WHEN YOU HEARD THIS THIS AFTERNOON.

THIS IS DAYS AFTER COSBY WAS DENIED PAROLE BECAUSE HE REFUSED TO SHOW REMORSE, TO SHOW ANY SENSE OF GUILT, TO SIGN UP FOR ANY PROGRAMS TO HELP SEXUAL OFFENDERS.

WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION?

>> I WAS VERY DISAPPOINTED.

I WASN'T ANGRY BUT VERY DISAPPOINTED.

BUT THEN I TALKED TO MYSELF, AND SAID THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL MEN IN THE NATION, IN THE WORLD, AND A BUNCH OF WOMEN GOT TOGETHER AND GOT -- AND WE DIDN'T EVEN ASK FOR ANYTHING.

WE JUST WANTED SOME KIND OF JUSTICE.

AND WE GOT TWO YEARS.

AND HE IS NO LONGER KNOWN AS AMERICA'S DAD.

>> Braude: GOOD POINT.

>> THAT'S PRETTY GOOD.

>> Braude: BY THE WAY, SPEAKING OF THOSE WOMEN, I'M SURE VIRTUALLY EVERYBODY REMEMBERS THE INCREDIBLE COVER OF NEW YORK MAGAZINE WITH DOZENS OF WOMEN WHO DID HAVE THE COURAGE TO STAND UP, AS YOU SAID, TO ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY.

HELEN, I'M GLAD TO HEAR WHAT YOU JUST SAID, BUT DO YOU NOT WORRY ABOUT THE POTENTIAL NEGATIVE AFFECT THIS HAS ON FUTURE SURVIVORS SAYING, AT THE END OF THE DAY, THEY GET OFF?

>> WELL, IT IS THE STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS, AND WE ALL KNEW THAT BEFORE, BUT WE STOOD UP ANYWAY.

THE THING IS, WE WERE THE FIRST.

WE BROKE GROUND, AND THAT IS WHAT IT IS WHEN YOU BREAK GROUND.

YOU DON'T GET AS MUCH AS YOU WANT, BUT YOU START IT OFF.

AND IT WAS LIKE AN AVALANCHE.

LOOK AT IT NOW.

EVERYTHING IS CHANGED.

WE SHOULD BE VERY PROUD OF THAT.

>> Braude: YOU SHOULD BE -- ALL OF YOU SHOULD BE VERY PROUD OF THAT.

AND I REALLY AM GLAD TO HEARSAY IT.

CARMEN, BACK TO YOU FOR A SECOND.

WHY DIDN'T THE COURT DO EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE SUGGESTING, SAYING THAT IS THE POISON FRUIT, SO TO SPEAK, OF HIS TESTIMONY THAT HE GAVE ONLY BECAUSE OF THE DEAL, DON'T ALLOW THAT TO BE ADMITTED, AND ALLOW CURRENT PROSECUTORS TO DECIDE IF THERE IS ENOUGH EVIDENCE IN THIS INDIVIDUAL CASE TO PROCEED AGAIN?

I DON'T GET THAT AT ALL?

>> I DON'T UNDERSTAND IT EITHER, JIM.

AND I HAVEN'T READ THE FULL DECISION.

SO I DON'T KNOW IF THEY EXPLAIN WHY THEY DECIDED ON THAT PARTICULAR THING.

BUT TO HELEN'S REMARK, AND MY HEART GOES OWL OUT TO ALL OF THE VICTIMS IN THIS CASE WHO ARE DEALING WITH LIMITED JUSTICE, BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, THIS RULING DID NOTHING TO NEGATE THIS CULPABILITY, TO EXPOSE HIM FOR THE PREDATOR THAT HE WAS AND STILL IS, AND SO THERE IS SOME SOLACE IN THAT.

THE COURT MAY WANT TO SEND ALSO A MESSAGE TO PROSECUTORS, WHEN YOU MAKE A CERTAIN COMMITMENT, WHEN YOU TAKE A CERTAIN POSITION, YOU JUST CAN'T GO BACK ON YOUR WORD, RELY ON EVIDENCE THAT YOU SAID YOU WOULD NEVER RELY ON, THAT SOMEONE THAT ACTED TO THEIR DETRIMENT, AND THEN WAS CONVICTED AS A RESULT OF THAT.

IT DOESN'T MATTER THAT THE DEFENDANT IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE IS DEPLORABLE.

THAT'S NOT WHAT THE LAW IS.

THE LAW DOESN'T CHANGE OR ISN'T APPLIED DIFFERENTLY BASED ON THE NATURE OF THE PARTICULAR DEFENDANT.

BUT I DO THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, THE COURT FELT STRONGLY THAT THIS HAD BEEN UNFAIRLY UTILIZED BECAUSE BUT POR FOR THAT DEPOSITION TESTIMONY, IN WHICH HE ADMITS HE HAD DRUGGED WOMEN, AND IN PARTICULAR I BELIEVE IT WAS ANDREA CONSTAND, THAT HE WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN ABLE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THEM AND ASSAULT THEM AND SO FORTH.

>> Braude: I WANT TO UNDERLINE -- I'M SORRY.

I WANT TO UNDERLINE SOMETHING YOU JUST SAID, CARMEN, THAT I FEEL REMISS I DIDN'T SAY.

DESPITE THE OUTCOME OF THIS CASE, THE DECISION OF THIS DIVIDED COURT, THERE IS NOTHING, IN THEIR OPINION, NOTHING, THAT IN ANY WAY UNDERCUTS ANY OF THE ALLEGATIONS MADE AGAINST COSBY BY CONSTAND OR ANY OF THE OTHER TOTALLY CREDIBLE ACCUSERS, WHICH IS A REALLY IMPORTANT POINT.

HELEN, WHEN WE SPOKE SEVERAL YEARS AGO, YOU ANSWERED THIS, BUT I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE TO HEAR IT AGAIN: WHAT CAUSED YOU TO DECIDE TO HAVE THE STRENGTH TO STAND UP AGAINST, AGAIN, TO USE YOUR WORDS, ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL AND FORMERLY POPULAR PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY?

>> IT HAD TO DO WITH MY HUSBAND.

WE WERE PROTESTING IN FRONT OF A UNIVERSITY AGAINST CLERGY SEXUAL ABUSE BECAUSE MY HUSBAND WAS SEXUALLY ABUSED BY FATHER DRAKE WHEN HE WAS 16 YEARS OLD.

AND I HEARD ON THE NEWS THAT THE COSBY VICTIMS HAD COME OUT.

THERE WERE ONLY 10OF THEM, AND THEY WERE BEING MADE FUN OF.

AND IN MY EXPERIENCE, I KNEW BILL COSBY, I KNEW WHAT HE WAS CAPABLE OF, BUT I WAS SUCCESSFUL AND I HAD A CAREER, AND I WASN'T INTIMIDATED INTO, I SUPPOSE, DATE-RAPE, OR WHATEVER IT IS CALLED.

SO I SAID, I HAVE TO STAND UP WITH THEM.

I KNOW IT IS JUST TO SAY I'M WITH YOU, IT IS THE TRUTH, AND TOGETHER WE CAN DO SOMETHING.

I KNOW IT IS NOT PERFECT, BUT THE WORLD IS NOT PERFECT.

BUT WE DID SOMETHING, AND WE DID IT TOGETHER, AND WE DID GET SOME KIND OF JUSTICE.

AND IT SET A PRECEDENT FOR OTHER WOMEN.

>> Braude: YEAH, WITHOUT A DOUBT.

AND, CARMEN, BEFORE YOU HAVE THE FINAL WORD, I THINK IT MATTERS A LOT TO A MAN LIKE COSBY, THE FIRST LINE IN HIS OBITUARY, WHENEVER THAT HAPPENS, OF COURSE, WILL BE ABOUT WHAT YOU TALKED ABOUT, ABOUT THE PREDATORY BEHAVIOR OF THIS MAN.

CARMEN, YOU HAVE THE FINAL 30 SECONDS.

>> YEAH.

I WANT TO SAY NOT ONLY WAS HE EXPOSED, AND IN SOME SENSE THERE IS A DEGREE OF JUSTICE IN THAT.

BUT TO HELEN'S POINT BEFOREHAND, TAKING THE COURAGEOUS ACTIONS THEY DID, THEY HAVE EMPOWERED OTHER WOMEN.

I HAVE BEEN ASKED, DO YOU THINK THIS DECISION WILL IMPACT THE #MeTOO MOVEMENT?

I DON'T THINK SO.

I THINK THERE WILL BE LESS OF THE EXCUSES LIKE STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS.

I THINK PEOPLE WILL SPEAK OUT, WOMEN IN PARTICULAR, WHEN THESE INCIDENTS HAPPEN AND NOT BE AFRAID BECAUSE THEY ARE BEING HEARD, THEY ARE BEING BELIEVED, AND THERE IS POWER IN NUMBERS, AND THERE IS STRENGTH IN NUMBERS.

AND SO, HELEN, KUDOS TO YOU AND EVERYONE ELSE WHO SPOKE UP IN THIS CASE, BUT I DO THINK THAT WILL EMPOWER OUR FUTURE WOMEN OF TODAY.

>> Braude: I WANT TO ECHO CARMEN'S WORDS ABOUT YOU, HELEN, AND THANK YOU FOR COMING BACK AGAIN.

BEST TO YOU.

CARMEN, IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU AS WELL.

>> THANK YOU.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, BUT COME BACK TOMORROW SCIENCE DENIALISM WAS RAMPANT IN THE TRUMP ERA, AND WE'RE STILL SEEING THE EFFECTS OF THOSE LIES TODAY.

SO HOW DOES ONE TRY TO CHANGE THE MINDS OF THE MISINFORMED?

B.U.

RESEARCHER LEE McINTYRE TACKLES THAT IN HIS NEW BOOK, "HOW TO TALK TO A SCIENCE DENIER: CONVERSATIONS WITH FLAT EARTHERS, CLIMATE DENIERS, AND OTHERS WHO DEFY REASON."

THAT AND MORE, TOMORROW AT 7:00.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND PLEASE STAY SAFE.

HI, BRYAN!

- Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org