.

TIM: WELCOME BACK TO THE STATE BUDGET WRAP-UP EDITION OF "OFF THE RECORD."

LEAD STORY, RECORD 81 BILLION OF YOUR TAX DOLLARS GOING INTO LOTS OF STATE PROGRAMS.

ON THE OTR PANEL, DAVE BOUCHER, ZOE CLARK AND BILL BALLENGER SITTING WITH US AS WE GET THE INSIDE-OUT, OFF THE RECORD.

ANNOUNCER: PRODUCTION OF "OFF THE RECORD" IS MADE POSSIBLE IN PART BY -- AND NOW, THIS EDITION OF "OFF THE RECORD" WITH TIM SKUBICK.

TIM: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, WELCOME BACK TO STUDIO C ON THIS, WHAT IS IT?

THE LEGISLATURE IS GONE!

>> IT'S JULY.

>> THEY LEFT BEHIND A LOT OF BUDGET SPENDING.

81 BILLION BUCKS, WHERE IS YOUR MONEY GOING?

>> SOMEBODY JOKED LAST NIGHT IT WAS CHRISTMAS IN JULY AS LAWMAKERS DOLED OUT TAX DOLLARS TO THE TUNE OF 81 BILLION AND LOOSE CHANGE.

HERE'S A PARTIAL LIST OF THE ITEMS ON THE 1600 PAGE STATE BUDGET COMPILED BY THE GOVERNOR'S OFFICE.

SHE AND THE SPECIAL INTEREST GROUPS THAT GOT A BIG CHUNK OF THE SPENDING APPLAUDED THE FIRST DEMOCRATICALLY CONTROLLED STATE BUDGET IN 40 YEARS.

SCHOOLKIDS WILL DIVVY UP PART OF A $24.3 BILLION STATE FUNDING PROGRAM FOR PUBLIC SCHOOLS, INCLUDING 160 MILLION FOR LUNCH AND BREAKFAST PROGRAM, 320 MILLION TO BEEF UP SCHOOL SECURITY AND OTHER INFRASTRUCTURE PROGRAMS.

5,600 PRESCHOOLKIDS GET FREE PRESCHOOL EDUCATION.

REPUBLICANS DID NOT VOTE FOR THE PACKAGE INCLUDING $9,700 FOR EVERY SCHOOLKID ON THE STATE.

ON ANOTHER FRONT, INCREASE IN HIGHER EDUCATION OF $112 MILLION TO BEEF UP SECURITY ON CAMPUSES.

$3 MILLION TO IMPLEMENT GUN VIOLENCE PROTECTION PROGRAMS AND THE STATE WILL TRAIN HOPEFULLY 50 NEW STATE POLICE OFFICERS AND BUY $14 MILLION WORTH OF BODY CAMERAS FOR PRISON CORRECTION OFFICERS.

LAWMAKERS APPROVED $950 MILLION FOR PET PROJECTS, SOME CALL IT PORK BARREL SPENDING.

>> CAN'T FACE MY NEIGHBORS AND EXPLAIN WHY THEY NEED TO PAY FOR COLLEGE, CHILD CARE AND CHILD DELIVERY COSTS WHILE PRISONERS WILL BE AFFORDED FREE TUITION ON A POET LAUREATE WHO DOES I STILL DON'T KNOW WHAT.

TIM: THE BULK OF THE 81 BILLION SHE'LL SIGN.

THAT'S ABOUT 9,000 BUCKS FOR EVERY PERSON IN OUR STATE.

TIM: ALL RIGHT, SO GREAT PANEL ON THIS SPARKLING 4th OF JULY WEEKEND.

A SPIFFY HEADLINE OUT OF THE BUDGET, DAVID.

>> HISTORIC, BIPARTISAN BUDGET HIGHLIGHTS DEMOCRATIC NEEDS.

>> IF YOU HAVE A COMMUNITY POOL, YOU'RE DOING REALLY WELL.

[LAUGHTER] >> YOU'LL HAVE TO EXPLAIN THAT.

DON'T TURN OFF YET, OKAY, FOLKS?

>> DEMOCRATS IN CHARGE, REMAIN IN CHARGE AND ACTING LIKE THEY'RE IN CHARGE.

>> SOME REPUBLICAN APPLAUSE FOR DEMOCRAT STATE BUDGET.

TIM: HOUSE REPUBLICANS BLOW IT ON SCHOOL AID BILL.

>> I LIKE THAT.

>> IT STILL PASSED AND PASSED WITH IMMEDIATE EFFECT.

TIM: YOU TELL ME, PLEASE, HOW CAN A REPUBLICAN WHO VOTED NO ON THE SCHOOL AID BUDGET, $9700 CALL FOLKS AND SAY I VOTED NO ON THAT, DAVID.

CAN THEY DO THAT?

>> THE OPPOSITION FROM SOME HOUSE REPUBLICANS IS FOCUSED ON THE SCHOOL MEAL PROGRAM, AND PROGRAM TO ALLOCATE $125 MILLION FOR QUOTE, UNQUOTE CLEAN BUSES.

A LOT OF PUSHBACK ON THE IDEA THAT BUSES, LIKE ELECTRIC BUSES DON'T WORK, AND COSTLY AND NOT GOING TO BE EFFECTIVE.

TIM: I'M VOTING NO ON $9700 FOR PUPILS.

>> SEEING PEOPLE VOTE NO FOR SMALL OR LARGE REASONS.

ON THE SCHOOL MEALS, SEEN PUSHBACK ON THE IDEA THAT FAMILIES THAT AFFORD MEALS ARE GETTING FREE MEALS.

$160 MILLION IN A MASSIVE BUDGET.

THOSE ARE TWO POINTS PUSHING BACK ON THE BUDGET.

>> THERE'S ONE MORE VOTE ON THE SCHOOL AID BUDGET BEFORE THE NEXT ELECTION, RIGHT?

SO BY NEXT YEAR -- >> THEMSELVES?

>> TALKING POINTS WHAT YOU NEED TO USE.

THE BUDGET GOT DONE WITH IMMEDIATE EFFECT.

SCHOOLS AND UNIVERSITIES BY JULY 1 KNOW WHAT THE MONEY IS GOING TO BE, AND LET'S DECIDE IN A FEW MONTHS IS THAT WHAT FOLKS ARE TALKING ABOUT ANYMORE?

>> WE'LL SEE HOW THIS PLAYS IN MARGINAL DISTRICTS AND THERE ARE MORE OF THEM NOW BECAUSE OF REDISTRICTING.

THE VOTES WILL PLAY WELL WITH THEIR COUNTY REPUBLICAN EXECUTIVE COMMITTEES.

TIM: BUT THEY DON'T VOTE?

>> WELL, THEY DO AND THEY PLAY A BIG DEAL IN NOMINATING PEOPLE TO GO BEFORE VOTERS.

TIM: I'M GOING TO GUESS HOUSE SPEAKER JOE TATE DISCUSSED THE ISSUE OF RUNNING COMMERCIALS AT SWING DISTRICTS.

>> I'M HAPPY TO TAKE THAT BET.

TIM: THAT MR. TISDALE IS THE ONLY ONE WHO VOTED YES ON THIS THING.

THEY'RE GOING TO RUN AN AD AND SAY THEY HAD A CHANCE TO SUPPORT YOUR SCHOOLKID AND THEY WALKED.

>> IF A REPUBLICAN LEGISLATOR CAN'T EXPLAIN HIS NO VOTE ON THE BILL, HE OR SHE DOESN'T DESERVE TO BE RE-ELECTED.

DEMOCRATS HAVE VOTED NO ON SCHOOL AID BILLS BEFORE, AND THEY'VE BEEN BIG, AND THEY HAD THEIR REASONS AND REPUBLICANS DO HAVE REASONS AND THEY CAN EXPLAIN THEM.

WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU EVER SAW A REPUBLICAN LEGISLATOR DEFEATED BECAUSE HE VOTED NO OR SHE VOTED NO ON THE SCHOOL AID BUDGET.

TIM: WE'VE NEVER SEEN A FOCUSED ATTEMPT TO DO THAT AS THE DEMOCRATS HANG ON BY THEIR THUMBNAILS TO KEEP CONTROL?

>> HE'LL TRY.

>> TO BILL'S POINT, THAT'S THE FASCINATING PART OF ALL OF THIS.

THE FIRST ALL-DEMOCRATIC BUDGET IN 40 YEARS, WE DON'T HAVE A LOT OF HISTORICAL KNOWLEDGE OF REPUBLICANS VOTING NO ON AN ALL-DEMOCRATIC BILL.

>> AND WE HAVE CERTAINLY SEEN SPECIFIC VOTES USED IN CAMPAIGNS TO UNSEAT INCUMBENTS SUCCESSFULLY USED.

TIM: WELL, ABSOLUTELY.

>> DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THE SCHOOL AID, IT'S LOTS OF BILLS.

TIM: BILLS, I'M SURPRISED BY YOU, YOU ARE SANGUINE ABOUT THE WHOLE THING.

>> SARAH LEITNER AND LEAD REPUBLICAN IN THE HOUSE, JOHN BALMSTED.

TIM: THEY VOTED YES.

>> THEY APPLAUDED THE BUDGET OVERALL.

I'VE NEVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THE DIVISION REPUBLICAN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, AGAIN, AS ZOE JUST POINTED OUT, THIS IS THE FIRST TIME YOU'VE SEEN AN ALL-DEMOCRATIC BUDGET IN 40 YEARS, SO WE'RE A NEW TERRITORY.

POLITICIANS BEING WHAT THEY ARE AND LOOKING AT THE PAST, THIS IS SOMETHING THAT'S GOING TO BE EXPLAINED BY THE CANDIDATES ON THE GROUND AND, AS ZOE POINTED OUT, ANOTHER BUDGET NEXT YEAR.

>> I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE, WE'VE SEEN FOR YEAR, LOTS OF PEOPLE, NOT JUST REPUBLICANS, POINT OUT THEY DON'T THINK THERE IS A CORRELATION WITH MONEY GOING TO DISTRICTS AND HIGHER EDUCATIONAL OUTCOMES.

RIGHT?

WE'VE SEEN REPUBLICANS TALK ABOUT VOUCHERS OR CHARTERS OR IDEAS THAT GO BEYOND WHAT OPPONENTS CONSIDER THROWING MONEY AT SOMETHING.

IF WE'RE HERE NEXT YEAR AND SEE TEST SCORES THAT AREN'T BETTER, YOU CAN SEE HOUSE REPUBLICANS SAY SEE, I DIDN'T WANT TO DO THIS.

I WANTED TO TALK ABOUT PROGRAMS, NOT JUST GIVING MORE MONEY PER STUDENT.

THAT'S SPECULATION, AND COULD SEE MASSIVE IMPROVEMENTS, RIGHT?

WE'VE ABSOLUTELY HEARD LOTS OF PEOPLE TALK ABOUT THE DIVERGENCE BETWEEN FUNDING AND OUTCOMES.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT STRUCK ME LISTENING TO SARAH LEITNER'S COMMENTS WAS, YOU GO BACK TO THE DAYS BEFORE TERM LIMITS.

WE'RE TALKING -- TIM: SHE IS THE RANKING REPUBLICAN ON THE APPROPRIATIONS COMMITTEE.

>> WHO PUBLICLY PRAISED THE PROCESS SAYING THAT DEMOCRATS DI BRING REPUBLICANS IN, WHICH WAS THE OPPOSITE MESSAGING -- >> WILDERNESS ON THAT.

>> THE OPPOSITE FROM THE REPUBLICAN LEADERSHIP, BUT THERE WAS A TIME, DURING TIGHT MAJORITIES WHERE THERE WERE SORT OF THREE CAUCUSES, ESPECIALLY ON THE HOUSE SIDE, WHICH WAS REPUBLICANS, DEMOCRATS AND APPROPRIATIONS.

AND APPROPRIATIONS IS, WHERE THE DEALS WERE MADE.

TIM: THERE WAS ALSO A TIME WHEN THE PEOPLE WHO WERE ON APPROPRIATIONS SAID TO THE BODY, THIS IS A GOOD PIECE OF LEGISLATION, AND WHAT WOULD EVERYBODY DO?

AYE.

THOSE TIMES ARE GONE, IN THE REPUBLICAN CAUCUS, THEY HAVE A MIND OF THEIR OWN, DON'T CONFUSE ME WITH THE FACTS, MY MIND IS MADE UP, SOME WOULD ARGUE.

>> THERE IS THE CAUCUS, THE MATT MADDUX WHO IS ALLERGIC TO WHAT HAPPENED IN THE PAST, WHICH IS A BUDGET HAPPENS, WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT, YOU VOTE FOR IT, AND THAT'S WHAT YOU DO BECAUSE THE FULL FAITH AND CREDIT OF THE STATE OF MICHIGAN AND THE ECONOM AND, ET CETERA, ET CETERA, BUT THAT IS THIS MODERN-DAY POLITICS, WHICH WE FIND OURSELVES IN 2023.

THAT'S NOT SIMPLY ONLY IN THE HOUSE REPUBLICAN CAUCUS IN MICHIGAN.

THAT'S ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

>> LOOK AT SPLIT BETWEEN THE LEADERSHIP IN BOTH THE HOUSE AND SENATE AND THE APPROPRIATION COMMITTEE HEADS.

THE LAST OF IT, HE APPOINTED SARAH LEITNER, SHE APPLAUDS IT.

OVER IN THE SENATE, I HAVEN'T SEEN ANYTHING FROM ERIC NESBITT.

BALMSTED, HE CAME OUT AND SAID THERE WERE A LOT OF GOOD REPUBLICAN IDEAS IN THIS THING, AND IT ISN'T BAD.

TIM: MORE SUPPORT IN THE SENATE FOR THE K-12 BUDGET THAN THERE WAS IN THE HOUSE.

>> WE HEAR THIS EVERY YEAR AND REPUBLICAN LEADERSHIP SAY DEMOCRATS, RANK AND FILE LAWMAKERS HAVE HOURS TO REVIEW HUNDREDS IF NOT THOUSANDS OF PAGES AND ASKED TO VOTE ON IT.

AND HEARD THE SAME COMPLAINT FROM HOUSE REPUBLICANS THIS TIME AROUND.

I THINK ALL OF US, AND CITIZENS CAN RELATE TO THE IDEA, THAT IF YOU'RE ASKED TO MAKE A BIG DECISION ON BILLIONS OF DOLLARS AND YOU AREN'T PART OF THE PROCESS OR AT LEAST NOT ON THE INSIDE UNTIL AN HOUR LATER, YOU CAN HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT.

I THINK CITIZENS ARE COMPLETELY RIGHT IN THESE AREAS TO SAY THEY HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT, RIGHT?

YOU TRUST YOUR LAWMAKER TO KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON IN LANSING.

IF THE LAWMAKER GETS AN HOUR AND A HALF TO READ A 1600-PAGE BILL, YOU CAN SEE WHERE THERE'S A PROBLEM WITH THAT.

TIM: FOR THE PEOPLE THAT WORKED ON THE BUDGET.

>> IT'S COMPLETELY FAIR TO NOT WANT LAWMAKER TO DEFER, YOU WANT THEM TO UNDERSTAND WHAT'S IN THE BUDGET.

>> AND LOTS OF POLICY MAKING IN THE LEGISLATURE, DO YOU, AS A PRACTICAL MATTER, HAVE TO DEFER TO YOUR POINT PEOPLE ON PARTICULAR ISSUES AND THE EXPECTATION IS THAT LEADERSHIP ARE GOING TO APPOINT PEOPLE TO COMMITTEES AND LEADERSHIP POSITIONS WHO ARE GOING TO GIVE ADVICE TO THE CAUCUS THAT MATCHES THE DESIRES OF THE CAUCUS.

TIM: DREAMER.

>> THAT IS THE WAY IT WORKS HISTORICALLY.

TIM: DREAMER.

[ LAUGHTER ] >> INTERESTING STORY.

DONALD TRUMP WAS IN OUR STATE IN NOVI AND BEAT THE HECK OUT OF THE EV ISSUE.

TURNS OUT STRANGE BED PARTNERS, DONALD TRUMP ON THE SAME PAGE AS THE PRESIDENT ON THE UAW, EXPLAIN.

>> TRYING TO PEEL OFF RANK AND FILE, BLUE COLLAR WORKERS.

TIM: YOU MEAN HE'S PATTERNING FOR VOTES?

>> ABSOLUTELY, AND HE'S SUCCESSFUL.

TIM: THE UAW PRESIDENT IS SETTING UP A TEMPLATE TO GET MORE OUT OF THE COMPANIES.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE STRANGE BEDFELLOWS THING?

>> IT HAPPENS AND DONALD TRUMP -- TIM: WAIT A MINUTE, MR. TRUMP WAS FOR EVs.

>> WELL, CONSISTENCY -- >> THAT'S BEFORE HE WAS AGAINST THEM.

TIM: LET ME WRITE THAT DOWN.

YEP.

>> PART OF DONALD TRUMP'S APPEAL IS TO BLUE COLLAR, TO BLUE COLLAR VOTERS.

TIM: IS HE TRYING TO SCARE THEM, Z?

>> LOOK, THERE'S GALLUP POLLING THAT CAME OUT THAT SAYS 71% OF REPUBLICANS ABSOLUTELY SAY THEY WILL NEVER BUY AN EV.

SO I MEAN I THINK IS IT PANDERING?

SURE.

IS IT THROWING RED MEAT TO THE BASE?

SURE, THAT'S WHO HE'S GOING TO NEED TO TURN OUT.

I REMIND YOU, IN THE AUDIENCE WAS A TUDOR DIXON, KRISTINA KARAMO.

TIM: WHOSE NAME HE MISPRONOUNCED.

>> RIGHT, BACK IN OCTOBER RALLYING FOR AND DIDN'T WIN.

YOU CAN GO AFTER THE BOUTIQUE ISSUES, BUT AGAIN, I DON'T KNOW HE'S GOING TO BE ABLE TO GET ENOUGH FOLKS TO TURN OUT.

>> HE'S NOT PAND ORG JUST TO THE BASE, HE'S PANDERING TO THE REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS WHOSE VOTES ARE FLEEING THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY BEGINNING IN 2016.

THAT'S WHY HE WON MICHIGAN AND EVEN IN 2020, AND WANTS MORE OF THEM.

HE KNOWS THE TIDE IS GOING IN THAT DIRECTION FOR HIM, AND SO HE'S MILKING IT, AND HE CAME IN HERE AND SAID THIS IS GOING TO BE A DISASTER.

TIM: LOST JOBS.

>> LOST JOBS.

THE ECONOMY.

HE SAID YOU WON'T BELIEVE HOW BAD IT'S GOING TO BE.

>> I WOULD LOVE TO MEET THE VOTER WHO HASN'T MADE UP THEIR MIND ABOUT DONALD TRUMP.

I DON'T KNOW IF THERE'S ONE VOTER IN AMERICA AND CERTAINLY IN MICHIGAN WHO DOESN'T HAVE AN OPINION WHETHER OR NOT THEY WOULD VOTE FOR DONALD TRUMP.

DOESN'T MATTER WHAT HE THINKS ABOUT EVs, IF THERE'S A VOTER WHO MADE THEIR MIND BECAUSE OF OPPOSITION TO EVs, I WOULD LOVE TO TALK TO THEM.

>> I WASTED FIVE MINUTES ON AN ISSUE THAT WAS IRREVEL?

>> MONTHS OUT, AND HIS POSITION ON EVs, DO WE THINK THERE'S A REPUBLICAN THAT IS LIKE, I WOULD VOTE FOR RON DeSANTIS, BUT I HEARD HIM TALK ABOUT EVs.

THERE'S A MODERATE IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY THAT FEELS THE WAY THEY FEEL ABOUT DONALD TRUMP.

MAYBE THERE IS AN INDEPENDENT, MAYBE, UNDER A ROCK FOR EIGHT YEARS.

I DOUBT IT, BUT MAYBE THERE IS.

HE CAN'T MAKE A MARKED DIFFERENCE.

>> CAN'T PICK UP ANY VOTES WITH THIS ISSUE?

>> 150,000 VOTES?

THAT'S WHAT HE WOULD NEED IN MICHIGAN.

TIM: I CAN'T WAIT TO ASK MADAM GOVERNOR, WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE UAW DUMPING ALL OVER YOUR EV STRATEGY, GOVERNOR?

WHAT DOES SHE SAY?

NEXT QUESTION?

>> THAT MAY BE THE WAY THAT HE FEELS ABOUT THIS, BUT IT IS THE FUTURE OF THE AUTOMOTIVE INDUSTRY.

TIM: SHE HASN'T SAID THAT, AND MY GUESS IS IT'S GOING TO BE CRICKETS ON THIS ISSUE.

>> I THINK THERE'S GOING TO BE DIFFERENT CONVERSATIONS HAPPENING BEHIND CLOSED DOORS THAN THE ONES THAT WE SEE, BUT I WILL SAY, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I THINK AUTOMAKERS, THAT FOLKS WHO ARE THINKING ABOUT THE FUTURE OF MICHIGAN KNOW, IS THAT IF MICHIGAN IS GOING TO GET INTO THE ECONOMY AND THE KNOWLEDGE-BASED ECONOMY THAT EVs ARE WHERE THE FUTURE IS GOING TO BE.

AND THE ISSUE THAT THE UAW IS GRAPPLING WITH RIGHT NOW IS THERE ARE GOING TO BE JOBS THAT ARE LOST BECAUSE FEWER JOBS ARE NEEDED TO BUILD EVs.

TIM: LESS PARTS, LESS PEOPLE.

>> ARE WE GOING TO TEACH THE NEXT GENERATION OF WORKERS HOW TO DO THE COMPUTER SYSTEMS AND THE CODING TO BUILD THE NEXT GENERATION.

THAT'S WHAT SHE'S PUTTING HER EGGS IN THE BASKET ABOUT.

>> I'M SORRY, GO AHEAD.

>> IF FIVE YEARS, TEN YEARS FROM NOW, WE'RE NOT GOING DOWN THIS TRAIL OF STUFF THAT ZOE WAS JUST TALKING ABOUT, THEN, THE COMPLAINT IS GOING TO BE THAT THE STATE AND THE AUTO INDUSTRY WAS LEFT BEHIND BECAUSE THEY FELT A PLAN.

>> IT'S HAPPENING, EITHER GET ON BOARD AND CREATE THE JOBS HERE TO DO IT OR LOSE OUT ON THE JOBS.

>> AND THE LAYOFFS FROM FORD, FOR EXAMPLE, ARE FROM WHITE COLLAR JOBS, AND IN ADDITION, TWO YEARS AGO AT MACKINAW, THE GOVERNOR AND FORD ANNOUNCED THEY'RE INVESTIGATE MORE THAN A BILLION DOLLARS IN FIVE PLANTS CREATING 3,000 JOBS, ALL OF THE JOBS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE HOURLY JOBS.

THERE'S AN IDEA THE TRANSITION, HAPPENING AT LEAST FROM FORD, IS FOCUSING ON GETTING SOME OF THE PEOPLE THAT ARE PROBABLY GOING TO BE UAW JOBS INTO THE PRODUCTION.

WHETHER THAT'S A LONG-TERM FIX IS COMPLETELY FAIR TO TALK ABOUT, BUT AT LEAST, WHEN WE HEARD THE GOVERNOR TALK ABOUT THIS, TALKING ABOUT HOURLY JOBS CONNECTED TO SOME OF THE PROJECTS.

TIM: WE HAD THE SPECTOR OF YOUR PIECE ON THE PROBLEMS IN MARSHALL WHERE THE LOCALS SAY THANKS, BUT NO THANKS.

>> SURE, WE'VE SEEN THE PUSHBACK, TO YOUR POINT, THERE'S A LAWSUIT FILED, A LITTLE CONVOLUTED BUT COMES DOWN TO THE IDEA WHETHER OR NOT LAND IN MARSHALL, WE CALL IT A MEGA SITE, THE MASSIVE SITES THAT ATTRACT BIG PLANTS LIKE THE BLUE OVAL BATTERY FACTORY, WHETHER IT IS USED FOR SOMETHING LIKE THIS.

THIS COMMITTEE IN MARSHALL ARGUED THERE IS WIDESPREAD PUBLIC DISCORD AND THEY OPPOSE BRINGING IN SOMETHING LIKE THIS, DUE TO ENVIRONMENTAL CONCERNS OR BECAUSE THIS LAND HAS BEEN DEDICATED TO AGRICULTURE AND NOW GOING TO BE A MASSIVE INDUSTRIAL FACTORY.

LOCAL DEVELOPMENTAL OFFICIALS AND CITY OFFICIALS PUSH BACK, SO DOES THE STATE.

WE'VE SEEN SIMILAR PUSHBACK IN THE RAPIDS FACILITY.

TIM: A RECALL IS UNDER WAY TO GET RID OF THE PEOPLE THAT MADE THE DECISION.

>> AND I THINK ONE OF THE FASCINATING NOTES IN ALL OF THIS THAT YOU CAN'T NOT DISCUSS IS -- WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT STRANGE BEDFELLOWS, WE HAVE THE DEMOCRATS AND THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY PUTTING UP TAX INCENTIVES FOR HUGE COMPANIES, AND JUST HOW WE'RE SEEING -- TIM: AND REPUBLICANS VOTINGY.

>> AND DEMOCRATS VOTING NO, TOO.

OPPOSITION TO CORPORATE WELFARE.

>> HOW MANY YEARS TALKING ABOUT ECONOMIC GARDENING AND GOING TO TAX CREDITS FOR MOVIES.

>> AND JOHN ENGLER WAS OPPOSED TO THOSE AS WELL, BUT AS SOON AS A PROJECT GOES SOMEWHERE ELSE, YOU FIND RELIGION.

TIM: I WANT TO KNOW HOW SERIOUS IS THIS PROBLEM, IF IT IS A PROBLEM, IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY OF THE AFRICAN-AMERICANS SAYING THE ALYSSA SLOTKIN ANOINTMENT, WE FIND OFFENSIVE.

>> THERE ARE A COUPLE THINGS GOING ON.

FIRST OF ALL, I'M NOT SURPRISED, AND SECONDLY, THE DEMOCRATS ARE GOING TO SHAFT THEMSELVES, THE BLACK, AFRICAN-AMERICAN DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATES, LESLIE LOVE, PAMELA PUGH AND HILL HARPER BECAUSE THEY SPLIT THE VOTE UP.

THEY HAVE 25% OF THE DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY VOTE IS AFRICAN-AMERICAN, IF THOSE THREE SPLIT THAT AND SLOTKIN IS BY HERSELF, SHE'S GOING TO WIPE THE FLOOR WITH THEM.

THEY'RE ABSOLUTELY KILLING THEMSELVES, THEY SHOULD HAVE RALLIED TOGETHER AND COME UP WITH A CONSENSUS, AFRICAN-AMERICAN NOMINEE TO RUN AGAINST SLOTKIN, THEY HAVEN'T DONE THAT.

THIS IS A STORY TOLD IN LEGISLATIVE DISTRICTS FOR YEARS.

SAGINAW SHOULD HAVE ELECTED DEMOCRATIC AFRICAN-AMERICAN IN THE HOUSE, AND KEPT RUNNING CANDIDATES AND A SINGLE WHITE AMERICAN WOULD BEAT THEM.

>> DEMOCRATS BEING DEMOCRATS AND IN THIS CASE, AFRICAN-AMERICAN DEMOCRATS, AND THESE THREE ARE DOOMED FROM THE GET-GO.

NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

TIM: IS THIS DISTRICT, IN THIS PARTY, ANALOGOUS TO WHAT WE SEE GOING ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE, HAVING A PHILOSOPHICAL DISCUSSION ABOUT WHO WE ARE?

THIS IS JUST RAW POLITICS, WE WANT OUR VOICE HEARD.

>> THOSE CONVERSATIONS ARE VERY, VERY DISTINCT.

AFRICAN-AMERICAN DEMOCRATICS HAVE LONG COMPLAINED THAT, IT'S A LARGE PART OF THE LOYAL PARTY BASE THAT'S TAKEN FOR GRANTED.

THAT SPORT IS TAKEN FOR GRANTED IN GENERAL ELECTIONS.

THE EXISTENTIAL FIGHT -- THE EXISTENTIAL MESS, THAT IS THE REPUBLICAN PARTY RIGHT NOW, IS VERY, VERY DIFFERENT.

>> LET ME JUST MENTION ONE THING MORE, TIM.

THE DEMOCRATS, AFRICAN-AMERICAN DEMOCRATS NEED A LEADER, SOMEBODY WHO CAN BRING ALL THE AFRICAN-AMERICANS IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY TOGETHER.

LET'S LOOK AT REDISTRICTING.

THE SUPREME COURT, U.S. SUPREME COURT DECISION A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO, ON THE ALABAMA CASE, WHICH ALL LIBERALS AND PROGRESSIVES ARE APPLAUDING SAYING THIS IS TERRIFIC ON VOTING RIGHTS.

GUESS WHAT?

IT BOOMERANGS IN MICHIGAN AGAINST THE DEMOCRATS AND AFRICAN-AMERICANS -- NOT AFRICAN-AMERICANS, BUT DEMOCRATS, BECAUSE THE SIXTH CIRCUIT COURT OF APPEALS WOULD RULE ON A SUIT CHALLENGING MICHIGAN'S LINES THAT WERE IN PLACE IN 2022, AND IF THE COMMISSION, THE INDEPENDENT REDISTRICTING COMMISSION HAS TO GO BACK IN SESSION AND REDRAW THE LINES, THEY MAY COME UP WITH MAPS THAT EXISTED FOR THE LAST TWO DECADES, WHERE YOU HAD TWO, NOT JUST ONE, MAJORITY AFRICAN-AMERICAN DISTRICT IN SOUTHEAST MICHIGAN.

YOU KNOW HOW MANY THERE ARE NOW?

NONE.

>> I WAS GOING TO SAY.

>> THERE ARE NONE.

YEAH.

THE ONLY AFRICAN-AMERICAN YOU'VE GOT IN CONGRESSIONAL DELEGATION IS A BLACK REPUBLICAN FROM MACOMB COUNTY, NORTH OF WAYNE COUNTY.

WAYNE COUNTY HAS NOBODY.

THEY'VE GOT TALIB AND THEY'VE GOT SHREVE TANADAR.

TIM: HOW SERIOUS IS THIS, DAVID?

>> IMPORTANT TO NOTE, NO COMMUNITY ANYWHERE IS A MONOLITH.

ALYSSA SLOTKIN IS GOING TO GET VOTE S FROM OTHER PEOPLE TOO.

THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME THERE IS A QUOTE, UNQUOTE CORONATION OF AN ESTABLISHMENT.

THIS IS NOT NECESSARILY A DEMOCRATIC THING.

ALL BEING THAT SAID, IF THERE WAS A CANDIDATE WHO COULD RAISE THE MONEY OF ALYSSA SLOTKIN OR HAVE THE MONEY SHE ALREADY HAS, OF COURSE, THERE COULD BE A PRIMARY RACE HERE.

>> SUPPOSEDLY HILL HARPER CAN RAISE MONEY, THAT'S THE THOUGHT, OUT OF THE THREE AFRICAN-AMERICANS.

I DON'T THINK THAT'S GOING TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE BECAUSE LOVE AND PUGH WILL SPLIT THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN VOTE WITH HIM NO MATTER HOW MUCH HE SPENDS, AND IT'S NOT CLOSE TO SLOTKIN.

>> AFTER THE SHOW LAST WEEK, I WENT TO THE SLOTKIN CAMPAIGN AND SAID WHAT'S UP?

WE'RE NOT COMMENTING.

AT SOME POINT WILL SHE HAVE TO ADDRESS THIS PROBLEM OR SANGUINELY GO ALONG?

>> DON'T MEAN THE PROBLEM OF THE -- YOU MEAN THE PROBLEM OF UNITING AROUND HER?

SHE'S GOING TO ADDRESS THAT?

TIM: NO, THE IDEA THAT PEOPLE ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT THAT.

>> ON WHAT BASIS?

SHE'S GOT TO BE CAREFUL.

SHE SHOULD KEEP HER MOUTH SHUT AND LET THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN DIVIDE EVERYTHING UP AND SAIL ON THROUGH.

>> IT'S NOT EARLY, EARLY, BUT IT'S RELATIVELY EARLY, WE'LL SEE IF THERE ARE FOUR, FIVE OR TWO CANDIDATES BY THE TIME PEOPLE ACTUALLY START VOTING.

THAT'S SOMETHING TO CONSIDER, BUT SURE, WHY WOULDN'T ALYSSA SLOTKIN CAMPAIGN OUTSIDE OF CURRENT CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT.

OF COURSE SHE'S GOING TO DO THAT.

THAT'S HOW YOU DO IT AS OPPOSED TO HAVING A DEBATE WITH SOMEBODY WAY EARLY IN THIS RACE, YOU CAN CAMPAIGN WHERE YOU NEED TO GO CAMPAIGN.

>> LET ME SAY SOMETHING, THE CONGRESSIONAL MAP, TIM, THE DEMOCRATS HAVE NOT CHALLENGED THAT.

THERE'S NO SUIT PENDING RIGHT NOW.

THERE SHOULD BE.

THERE SHOULD BE IN THE SIXTH CIRCUIT COURT OF APPEALS CHALLENGING THAT MAP THAT ABSOLUTELY SHAFTED THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN COMMUNITY IN SOUTHEAST MICHIGAN, AND I'M JUST AMAZED.

THE ONLY SUIT PENDING IS AGAINST THE STATEHOUSE AND STATE SENATE MAPS.

>> WHEN THE MAPS FIRST CAME OUT BECAUSE OF THAT VERY REASON, AND YOU SEE IT NOW, A LACK OF REPRESENTATION PARTICULARLY AMONG DEMOCRATS IN THE MICHIGAN SENATE BECAUSE OF THAT.

GOING TO ANNOUNCE IN JULY HE'S RUNNING FOR CONGRESS.

THE GOVERNOR LOSES A VERY IMPORTANT PART OF HER TEAM.

HER LEGISLATIVE LOBBYIST.

>> HE BASICALLY RUNS THE SENATE RIGHT NOW.

TIM: WELL -- [LAUGHTER] >> HE DOES, HE RUNS THE SENATE.

TIM: THERE'S THE PRESIDENT OF THE CURTIS HURTLE FAN CLUB.

>> I THINK EVERYBODY IN LANSING KNOWS FORMER SENATOR HURTLE, HE'S BEEN AROUND LANSING FOR A LONG TIME.

THE GOVERNOR HAS A DEMOCRATIC MAJORITY IN THE SENATE.

THAT HELPS.

>> TENUOUS MAJORITY.

>> SURE, BUT IT'S STILL A MAJORITY.

TIM: SHE NEEDS TO GO IN AND TALK TO THESE PEOPLE AND THAT'S WHAT HURTELLE BROUGHT TO THE TABLE.

>> SURE, HE, OF COURSE, WAS IN THE SENATE AND KNOWS THE SENATORS THERE.

I'M NOT SURE THAT ARE SENATE MAJORITY LEADER, WHEN HE BREAKS, ISN'T ANSWERING THE PHONE WHEN THE GOVERNOR CALLS.

I THINK THAT'S NOT A PROBLEM IN THE SENATE RIGHT NOW.

AGAIN, HE'S VERY -- EVERYBODY THINKS HE'S VERY GOOD AT WHAT HE DOES.

I DON'T THINK THIS IS GOING TO CRIPPLE THE DEMOCRATS' AGENDA WHEN THE DEMOCRATS CONTROL THE HOUSE.

>> THIS ISN'T A BIG LOSS, A SET OF SKILLS WILL BE ROLLING OUT THE DOOR AND THAT MATTERS, BUT IT'S NOT LIKE THERE AREN'T A POOL OF PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING TO BE -- >> WATCH THIS, WATCH THIS.

OKAY, WE'RE DONE.

[LAUGHTER] >> MAKE ANY GUESSES WHO IT'S GOING TO BE?

TIM: I THINK WAYNE SCHMIDT UP NORTH, A REPUBLICAN WOULD BE A GOOD REPLACEMENT FOR HURTELLE.

WHAT DO I KNOW.

>> GOOD FOR WHITMER AND SCHMIDT, BUT NOT SURE IT'S GOOD FOR THE SENATE REPUBLICANS.

TIM: LAST WORD.

EVERYBODY HAVE A SAFE HOLIDAY WEEKEND, ESPECIALLY WITH FIREWORKS.

SEE YOU FOR MORE "OFF THE RECORD" NEXT WEEK.

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