>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON": THE SCANDALS JUST KEEP COMING FOR THE BOSTON POLICE DEPARTMENT, WITH DENNIS WHITE NOW OFFICIALLY FIRED FROM THE TOP JOB, TO THE MOLESTATION CHARGES AGAINST LONG TIME OFFICER AND POLICE UNION HEAD PATRICK ROSE.

AND NOW MASSIVE OVERTIME FRAUD THAT MAY JUST LEAVE THE STATE POLICE IN THE DUST.

THEN, LATER, HISTORIAN AND YALE PROFESSOR ELIZABETH HINTON ON HER NEW BOOK, "AMERICA ON FIRE: THE UNTOLD HISTORY OF POLICE VIOLENCE AND BLACK REBELLION SINCE THE 1960s."

♪♪ >> Braude: COMMISSIONER-FOR-A-DAY, ACTUALLY TWO, DENNIS WHITE, IS NOW OFFICIALLY OUT AT THE BOSTON POLICE >> IT IS CLEAR THAT DENNIS WHITE'S RETURN AS COMMISSIONER WOULD SEND A CHILLING MESSAGE TO VICTIMS AND REINFORCE A CULTURE OF FEAR AND A BLUE WALL OF SILENCE IN OUR POLICE DEPARTMENT.

DENNIS WHITE'S DOCUMENTED CONDUCT 20 YEARS AGO AND DURING THE COURSE OF OUR INVESTIGATION LED ME TO THE INESCAPABLE CONCLUSION, THAT IT IS NOT IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE BOSTON POLICE DEPARTMENT, ITS EMPLOYEES, OR THE CITIZENS OF BOSTON FOR HIM TO REMAIN AT COMMISSIONER.

>> Braude: IT'S THE LATEST STEP IN A SAGA THAT STARTED ALMOST IMMEDIATELY AFTER HE WAS APPOINTED TO THE TOP JOB IN JANUARY, WHEN "THE BOSTON GLOBE" RELEASED A REPORT ABOUT DOMESTIC VIOLENCE ALLEGATIONS WHITE'S EX-WIFE MADE AGAINST HIM IN THE '90s.

HE WAS QUICKLY SUSPENDED AND LAST MONTH ACTING MAYOR KIM JANEY STARTED TAKING STEPS TO FIRE HIM.

AND THOUGH WHITE HAS REPEATEDLY DENIED MOST OF THE CLAIMS, CORROBORATED BY ONE DAUGHTER BUT NOT THE OTHER, JANEY SAID TODAY HIS ACTIONS IN RECENT WEEKS HAVE DONE EVEN MORE TO ERODE PUBLIC TRUST IN HIS JUDGMENT.

>> IT'S A NEW DAY.

WE HAVE A NEW VISION FOR POLICING IN BOSTON.

WE HAVE TO REIMAGINE POLICING AND MAKE SURE THERE'S ACCOUNTABILITY AND TRANSPARENCY.

>> Braude: THIS IS JUST ONE IN A SERIES OF RECENT SCANDALS FOR THE BOSTON POLICE DEPARTMENT, INCLUDING OVER WHO KNEW WHAT AND WHEN ABOUT THE CHILD MOLESTATION ALLEGATIONS AGAINST FORMER OFFICER AND POLICE UNION PRESIDENT PATRICK ROSE.

AT LEAST ONE OF WHICH, "THE BOSTON GLOBE" REPORTED, HAD BEEN INTERNALLY INVESTIGATED BY THE DEPARTMENT DECADES BEFORE HIS ARREST AND CRIMINAL INDICTMENT EARLIER THIS YEAR.

AND NOW THERE'S ANOTHER ONE.

WITH AT LEAST 14 MEMBERS OF THE BOSTON POLICE DEPARTMENT, INCLUDING OFFICERS AND OTHER EMPLOYEES, NOW THE TARGET OF A CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION, INTO FIVE YEARS AND MORE THAN $300,000 WORTH OF OVERTIME FRAUD SCHEMES.

"THE BOSTON GLOBE" CALLED IT "LUDICROUSLY BRAZEN" -- DETAILING ACCUSATIONS FROM PROSECUTORS THAT CITY OFFICERS ROUTINELY CLAIMED TO BE WORKING WHEN ALARMS SHOWED FACILITIES HAD LONG BEEN EMPTY AND REGULARLY CLAIMED TO HAVE WORKED 8.5 HOUR WEEKEND SHIFTS FOR JOBS THAT LASTED LESS THAN HALF THAT.

PROSECUTORS ALSO TOLD THE "GLOBE" ABOUT ONE INSTANCE IN WHICH A LONGTIME CLERK REPEATEDLY FORGED THE SIGNATURES OF AT LEAST THREE DIFFERENT SUPERVISORS, HELPING HER COLLECT SOME $30,000 IN FRAUDULENT OVERTIME EARNINGS.

AND AS THE "GLOBE" SAID, TALK ABOUT BRAZEN!

MUCH OF THIS WENT ON AT THE SAME TIME THAT MANY OF STATE TROOPERS WERE BEING PROSECUTED FOR VERY SIMILAR OFFENSES.

JOINING ME TO TALK ABOUT ALL OF THIS ARE YAWU MILLER, SENIOR EDITOR OF THE "BAY STATE BANNER."

AND BOSTON CITY COUNCILOR LYDIA EDWARDS.

>> Braude: THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

I APPRECIATE IT.

YAWU, STARTING WITH YOU, WHITE IS FIRED.

NOW WHAT?

>> OBVIOUSLY, HE SAID HE IS GOING TO APPEAL THIS, AND HE PROBABLY, MOST LIKELY, WILL FILE A LAWSUIT.

IT WILL DRAG ON A BIT, BUT I THINK THIS PROBABLY GIVES ACTING MAYOR JANEY THE OPPORTUNITY TO INSTALL A NEW COMMISSIONER.

SO IT IS KIND OF A WIN FOR HER IN THE SHORT RUN.

>> Braude: COUNCILOR, DID ACTING MAYOR JANEY MAKE THE RIGHT MOVE HERE?

>> I THINK SHE MADE ONE THAT WAS BASED OFF OF THE EVIDENCE SHE GOT TO HEAR, BASED OFF HER PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, AND ALSO BECAUSE OF DEEP CONCERNS OF WHITE'S PAST OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE.

I THINK SHE MADE THE DECISION THAT MADE SENSE.

AND I THINK SHE ALSO FELT HE WASN'T PROPERLY VETTEDMENT.

>> Braude: WHAT DO YOU THINK HAPPENS NEXT.

LET'S LEAVE THE POTENTIAL LITIGATION ASIDE FOR A MOMENT.

WHAT DO YOU THINK HAPPENS INTERNALLY IN TERMS OF THE POLICE DEPARTMENT LEADERSHIP, COUNCILOR?

>> THIS IS THE TIME FOR FOLKS -- WE'RE LOOKING FOR LEADERSHIP IN THE DEPARTMENT, HONESTLY.

I THINK AT THIS TIME WE NEED TO CHECK IN ON MORALE, AND MAYBE USE THIS AS THE OPPORTUNITY IT IS: IT IS TIME TO REFORM AND TIME TO CHANGE.

I CAN'T THINK OF A BETTER OPPORTUNITY, WHEN YOU'RE ALSO LOOKING FOR LEADERSHIP, TO GET REFORM AND CHANGE.

>> Braude: YAWU, YOU SAID EARLIER, IT GIVES HER THE OPPORTUNITY TO PICK A COMMISSIONER.

I ASKED HER TWO, MAYBE THREE TIMES, IF SHE BELIEVED SHE HAD THE POWER TO PICK A PERMANENT COMMISSIONER, BECAUSE THERE IS SOME LEGAL DISPUTE.

SHE NEVER ANSWERED THE QUESTION.

SHOULD I READ INTO YOUR ANSWER THAT SHE DOES HAVE THE POWER, IN YOUR ESTIMATION, AND THAT SHE'LL EXERCISE IT?

>> I THINK, AS FAR AS ANY OF US KNOWS -- NOBODY KNOWS ABSOLUTELY FOR SURE.

THE LANGUAGE IN THE CHARTER IS SUFFICIENTLY VAGUE THAT YOU COULD MAKE COMPELLING ARGUMENTS EITHER WAY.

SO I DO THINK THAT, AGAIN, SHE HAS THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO IT.

IT'S JUST A QUESTION OF WHETHER ANYBODY PUSHES BACK ON IT.

>> Braude: COUNCILOR, SHOULD SHE PICK A PERMANENT REPLACEMENT?

SHE INTIMATED TO US THE OTHER DAY, AND SEEP SEEMED TO SOUND THIS AFTERNOON, THAT SHE WAS GOING TO PUT A PRETTY THOROUGH PROCESS IN PLACE.

IT SOUNDS TO ME LIKE THE PROCESS MIGHT EVEN CONTINUE POST THE FALL ELECTIONS.

>> I THINK THAT IS THE REAL CONCERN.

LEAVE THE PERMANENT, INTERIM TITLE ASIDE, AT THE END OF THE DAY, THE NEXT MAYOR, WHOEVER THAT COULD BE, COULD EASILY COME IN AND GET ANOTHER POLICE COMMISSIONER.

SO AS WE'VE SEEN THE ACTING MAYOR CAN REMOVE SOMEBODY, AN ACTING REPLACEMENT CAN ALSO REMOVE SOMETHING.

WHATEVER TITLE YOU PUT ON THAT PERSON IS GOING TO BE TEMPORARY UNTIL WE KNOW WHO THE MAYOR IS.

>> Braude: HOW MUCH ARE YOU CONCERNED, COUNCILOR, ABOUT THIS LITIGATION, WHICH IS NOT GUARANTEED, BUT I WOULD SAY LIKELY, TO BE A DISTRACTION.

HARKENING BACK TO OUR RADIO SHOW, I ASSUME ONE OF DENNIS WHITE'S ARGUMENTS WILL BE DUE PROCESS.

AND ACTING MAYOR JANEY SAID TO US, SHE HAD NOT MADE UP HER MIND.

SHE WAS GOING TO LISTEN TO THE EVIDENCE AT THE HEARING SHE CONDUCTED.

AND SHE TALKED IN GREAT DETAIL ABOUT THE PROCESS OF PICKING A REPLACEMENT, EVEN THOUGH THEY SAID SHE HADN'T MADE UP HER MIND.

DO YOU WORRY ABOUT LITIGATION DISTRACTING FROM THE JOB OF WHOEVER SITS IN DENNIS WHITE'S CHAIR?

>> NO, NOT AT ALL.

LITIGATION HAPPENS.

WE HAVE A LEGAL DEPARTMENT.

>> Braude: YOU'RE A PRETTY GOOD LAWYER, LYDIA EDWARDS, IN ADDITION TO BE A CITY COUNCILOR.

I WANT TO READ TO YOU FROM WHAT DENNIS WHITE SAID AT HIS HEARING AND WHAT HIS LAWYER SAID AFTER ACTING MAYOR JANEY'S DECISION.

I THINK YOU'LL PICK UP A STRIKING SIMILARITY.

HE SAID: "I'M A BLACK MAN WHO HAS BEEN ACCUSED FALSELY OF CRIMES, NOT BEEN GIVING A FAIR TRIAL.

THAT'S A PATTERN THAT HAS BEEN REPEATED IN THIS COUNTRY FOR CENTURIES."

AND NICK CARTER, ALMOST THE EXACT SAME WORDS: "HE IS A BLACK MAN, FALSELY ACCUSED OF CRIMES, NOT GIVEN A FAIR TRIAL.

THIS REFLECTS AN UGLY PAT PATTERN IN OUR COUNTRY."

DID RACE, LYDIA EDWARDS, HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH DENNIS WHITE'S TERMINATION?

>> I DON'T BELIEVE RACE HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH HIS TERMINATION.

I THINK IT HAD TO DO WITH WHETHER HE WAS VETTED PROPERLY.

AND HIS PAST HAD EVERYTHING TO DO WITH WHETHER HE WAS LET GO.

THAT'S REALLY WHAT I THINK IT CAME DOWN TO.

AND HOW MUCH A PERSON'S PAST SHOULD IMPACT THEIR ABILITY TO BE EMPLOYED BY THE CITY OF BOSTON AND AS POLICE COMMISSIONER.

I THINK THERE WAS A QUESTION OF WHETHER THAT WAS THOROUGHLY WEIGHED AND VETTED BEFORE ACTING MAYOR JANEY TOOK OFFICE.

>> Braude: IT SEEMS TO ME THAT WHITE'S LAWYER THINKS RACE HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH IT.

YAWU, DO YOU?

>> I DON'T THINK SO.

I THINK IT IS MORE ABOUT THE INTERNAL AFFAIRS PROCESS IN THE BOSTON POLICE DEPARTMENT.

FOR ME, IF THERE WAS ONE TAKE-AWAY OF THE INVESTIGATION THAT THE CITY DID, IT IS THAT THE CITY -- I MEAN THE POLICE DEPARTMENT'S OWN INTERNAL AFFAIRS ON THESE INVESTIGATIONS ARE NOT THOROUGH.

YOU KNOW, YOU JUST -- THEY'RE MORE -- THEY SEEM LIKE THEY'RE MORE INTERESTED IN SWEEPING THINGS UNDER THE RUG THAN ARRIVING AT ANY TYPE OF TRUTH.

WHEN IT COMES TO ALLEGATIONS OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE OR DOMESTIC VIOLENCE, AGAIN, THERE IS A PATTERN OF IGNORING SERIOUS ALLEGATIONS AND NOT REALLY GETTING TO THE ROOT OF IT.

>> Braude: I WOULD ARGUE THAT THE INVESTIGATIVE BODY, IN TERMS OF THE BOSTON POLICE DEPARTMENT, IS "THE BOSTON GLOBE," WHETHER IT IS PATRICK ROSE IN THE ALLEGATIONS, THE CREDIBLE ALLEGATIONS, OF SERIAL MOLESTATION, THE SITUATION WITH DENNIS WHITE, THE OVERTIME STORY IN THE NEWSPAPER.

YAWU, I WANT TO STAY WITH YOU FOR A MINUTE.

WHILE COUNCILOR EDWARDS DOESN'T THINK LITIGATION IS A DISTRACTION, I'M GUESSING THE WHOLE ISSUE OF WHO IS TELLING THE TRUTH, ON ONE SIDE WILLIE GROSS AND DENNIS WHITE SAYING THAT THE MAYOR KNEW EVERYTHING ABOUT THIS, MAYOR WALSH, AND MAYOR WALSH SAYING REPEATEDLY HE KNEW NOTHING.

THE LATER COMMISSIONER EVANS, BILL EVANS, AGREEING WITH HIM.

DOES THAT GO AWAY QUICKLY?

OR IS THAT GOING TO BE WITH US FOR A LONG TIME?

>> I THINK WE IN THE MEDIA ARE GOING TO CONTINUE TO PAY ATTENTION TO IT.

WE'RE GOING TO CONTINUE TO REPORT ON IT.

THE POLICE DEPARTMENT IS UNDER A MICROSCOPE NOW FOR A NUMBER OF REASONS, AS ARE POLICE DEPARTMENTS ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

AND A LOT OF WHAT WE -- WHAT THEY'VE BEEN TELLING US OVER THE YEARS, AGAIN, LIKE YOU SAID, THE "THE BOSTON GLOBE" IS THE INVESTIGATIVE PARTY OF THE POLICE DEPARTMENT, AND, YOU KNOW, THE MEDIA HAS GIVEN US MORE INSIGHT INTO THE POLICE THAN THE POLICE THEMSELVES HAVE.

>> Braude: COUNCILOR, IF A CONSTITUENT CAME UP TO YOU TONIGHT AFTER THIS DISCUSSION AND SAID TO YOU, COUNCILOR, I READ ABOUT THE DOMESTIC VIOLENCE ALLEGATIONS AGAINST THE ACTING -- WELL, THE COMMISSIONER FOR A COUPLE OF DAYS, THAT THE ACTING MAYOR FOUND TO BE CREDIBLE, I READ ABOUT THE CHILD MOLESTATION ALLEGATIONS AGAINST THE COP WHO WAS ALLOWED TO STAY ON THE FORCE FOR A COUPLE OF DECADES, AND THEN ROSE TO BE UNION PRESIDENT, I READ IN "THE BOSTON GLOBE" ABOUT WHATEVER IT IS, A DOZEN PLUS PEOPLE IN THE EVIDENCE UNIT SUBMITTING FRAUDULENT CLAIMS FOR OVERTIME, MAYBE EVEN TAINTING OTHER EVIDENCE BEYOND THAT, I DON'T TRUST THESE PEOPLE, WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THEM?

>> I DON'T BLAME YOU.

I DON'T BLAME YOU.

I'M SORRY, IS WHAT I WOULD SAY, I'M AN ELECTED OFFICIAL, AND I'M PART OF THIS SYSTEM, AND I ACKNOWLEDGE THAT AS WELL.

SO I APOLOGIZE.

I WOULDN'T BLAME THEM FOR NOT TRUSTING THIS.

I WOULD SAY MY JOB, AS WELL AS ACTING MAYOR JANEY AND ALL OF MY COLLEAGUES ON THE CITY COUNCIL'S JOB, IS TO HELP BUILD THAT TRUST AGAIN.

AND THAT LITERALLY WILL BE FOR US HOLDING THEM ACCOUNTABLE.

I'M PROUD OF THE WORK WE'VE DONE.

WE HAD HEARINGS ABOUT OVER TIME.

WE'RE PUSHING REFORMS, CURRENTLY RIGHT NOW, WITHIN THE BOSTON POLICE DEPARTMENT, EVEN DIVERSIFYING, AND MAKING THE ACTION REFLECT THE DIVERSITY OF THE CITY OF BOSTON.

THERE ARE REFORMS HAPPENING NOW, AND THEY MAY NOT BE AS BIG, BUT THEY ARE HAPPENING.

WE UNDERSTAND IF YOU DON'T HAVE TRUST IN THE BOSTON POLICE OR THE POLICE DEPARTMENT, YOU'RE WALKING AWAY FROM SAFETY.

I THINK WE'RE WORSE OFF AS A CITY.

BUT I DON'T BLAME THEM.

I DON'T BLAME THEM ONE BIT.

>> Braude: COUNCILOR, ENDING THAT CONVERSATION WITH THAT CONSTITUENT, IF HE OR SHE SAID TO YOU, CAN YOU SEE A DAY WHEN THE POLICE WILL EVER ADEQUATELY POLICE THEMSELVES, DO YOU?

CAN YOU?

>> I ACTUALLY THINK THAT THAT IS NOT -- IT SHOULDN'T BE THE POLICE TO POLICE THEMSELVES.

I ACTUALLY SUPPORTED COUNCILOR CAMPBELL.

I THINK SHE HAD AN INSPECTOR GENERAL IDEA FOR THE CITY OF BOSTON.

I ACTUALLY SUPPORT OUTSIDE, INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATIONS COMING IN TO ESTABLISH TRUST, SO THAT THERE IS NO QUESTION OF THE METHODOLOGY OR THE ALLEGIANCEY OF THE PEOPLE.

IT SHOULD BE PART OF THE DEPARTMENT CONVERSATION.

>> Braude: YAWU, YOU HAVE THE FINAL WORD.

CAN YOU IMAGINE A A MOMENT WHEN THE POLICE ADEQUATELY POLICES ITSELF OR THE CITY ADEQUATELY POLICES THE POLICE DEPARTMENT?

>> I HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT THE CITY CAN DO A BETTER JOB, AND WILL DO A BETTER JOB EVENTUALLY.

I AGREE WITH LYDIA THAT IT SHOULDN'T BE THE POLICE OFFICERS THEMSELVES THAT DO IT.

THERE SHOULD BE OUTSIDE AUDITS -- THERE HAVE BEEN OUTSIDE AUDITS, AND THEY SHOULD BE ACTED UPON.

THE POLICE HAVE TO FEEL LIKE THEY'RE ACCOUNTABLE TO YOU AND ME, THE PEOPLE WHO VOTE AND PAY TAXES IN THE CITY OF BOSTON.

>> Braude: THANK YOU BOTH SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME, AS ALWAYS.

APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Braude: EVERY NIGHT, FOR THE BEST PART OF A WEEK, PROTESTORS HAVE TAKEN TO THE STREETS IN MINNEAPOLIS AFTER YET ANOTHER BLACK MAN WAS KILLED BY LAW ENFORCEMENT IN THE CITY.

MEMBERS OF A U.S.

MARSHAL'S TASK FORCE SHOT WINSTON SMITH ON THURSDAY WHILE TRYING TO ARREST HIM.

OFFICIALS SAY SMITH WOULDN'T SURRENDER AND THAT THE MARSHALS OPENED FIRE AFTER HE PULLED OUT A GUN.

BUT PROTESTORS SAY THEY'RE NOT WILLING TO TAKE LAW ENFORCEMENT'S WORD FOR IT.

>> WE'RE ASKING FOR VIDEO FOOTAGE.

JUST SOLID EVIDENCE.

>> Braude: AND FOR GOOD REASON, GIVEN THE TRACK RECORD OF POLICE ACCOUNTS IN CASES OF FATAL SHOOTINGS.

LIKE THE PRESS RELEASE SENT OUT AFTER THE MURDER OF GEORGE FLOYD, WHICH TOLD A VERY DIFFERENT STORY THAN WHAT WE LATER SAW ON CELL PHONE VIDEO, SIMPLY SAYING FLOYD DIED AFTER A MEDICAL INCIDENT.

FLOYD'S DEATH, OF COURSE, SPARKED MONTHS OF UNREST ACROSS THE COUNTRY, SOME OF WHICH GOT MORE ATTENTION FOR PROPERTY DAMAGE THAN FOR THE REASON IT WAS ALL HAPPENING IN THE FIRST PLACE.

>> OVERNIGHT, MINNEAPOLIS BURNED AGAIN.

AT TIMES RIOTERS RULED THE STREETS.

>> IT BEGAN WITH POLICE AND RIOTERS CLASHING ON A HOT WEDNESDAY NIGHT.

BUT WITHIN A MATTER OF HOURS, IT WAS COMPLETELY OUT OF HAND.

>> Braude: FROM MINNEAPOLIS IN 2020, BACK TO THE WATTS NEIGHBORHOOD IN L.A.

IN 1965, AFTER OFFICERS BEAT A BLACK MAN DURING A TRAFFIC STOP, THAT HAS BEEN THE RESPONSE TO UNREST OVER POLICE VIOLENCE AGAINST BLACK AMERICANS.

BUT MY NEXT GUEST ARGUES DESCRIBING THEM AS RIOTERS GETS THE WHOLE THING WRONG.

HISTORIAN AND YALE PROFESSOR ELIZABETH HINTON MAKERS HER CASE IN HER NEW BOOK, "AMERICA ON FIRE: THE UNTOLD HISTORY OF POLICE VIOLENCE AND BLACK REBELLION SINCE THE 1960s."

SHE JOINS ME.

>> Braude: ELIZABETH HINTON, IT IS A PLEASURE TO MEET YOU.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

I'M THRILLED TO BE WITH YOU.

>> Braude: CENTRAL TO YOUR WORK IS THAT THERE IS A WORLD DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A RIOT AND A REBELLION.

WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE AND WHY DOES IT MATTER?

>> PART OF THE PROBLEM, FROM WATTS IN '65 ON DOWN, POLICY-MAKERS, FROM LINDEN JOHNSON, TO THE MAYOR OF LOS ANGELES, CALLED THESE INCIDENTS RIOTS, WHEN IN FACT THEY WERE ROOTED IN -- IT WAS POLICE VIOLENCE BUT ROOTED IN THE SAME LARGER SOCIO-ECONOMIC INTERESTS.

IT WAS ABOUT ACCESS TO JOBS, GREATER EDUCATIONAL AND MORE ROBUST EDUCATIONAL PROGRAMS IN LOW INCOME COMMUNITIES OF COLOR.

AND OVERHAUL OF PUBLIC HOUSING.

ESSENTIALLY ECONOMIC INCLUSION IN AMERICAN SOCIETY.

BY LABELING THEM RIOTS AND DISMISSING THIS POLITICAL VIOLENCE AS CRIMINAL AND MEANINGLESS, THEN THE ONLY SOLUTION BECOMES WHAT PEOPLE ARE PROTESTING AGAINST.

IT BECOMES THE POLICE, WHICH, OF COURSE, IGNITES FURTHER REBELLION IN THE FIRST PLACE.

>> Braude: YOU CALLED THAT A CYCLE, AND YOU DESCRIBED IT AS BEGINNING WITH POLICE WHO -- AND I'LL QUOTE FROM YOUR BOOK "WHO MOVE FROM THE GHETTOS OF AMERICA," "LIKE AN OCCUPYING SOLDIER IN A BITTERLY HOSTILE COUNTRY."

WHAT IS THE CYCLE, AND IS IT MORE THE NORM THAN THE ABERRATION?

>> WE'RE VERY MUCH STUCK IN THIS CYCLE, ALTHOUGH IT PLAYED OUT DIFFERENTLY IN THE '60s AND '70s, WHEN THE GOVERNMENT WAS INVESTING IN THE EXPANSION OF THE POLICE FORCES AND MILITARY.

AND THAT THE BEST WAY TO PREVENT CRIME WAS TO INTERFERE WITH ORDINARY AND EVERYDAY LIFE.

SO WHEN OFFICERS CAME TO ARREST TEENAGERS FOR DOING WHAT TEENAGERS DO, RESIDENTS DURING THIS PERIOD INITIALLY RESPONDED TO WHAT THEY PERCEIVED AS VIOLENCE WITH VIOLENCE, BY THROWING ROCKS AND BOTTLES AT THE POLICE.

MORE POLICE OFFICERS WILL SHOW UP AT THE SEEN WITH MILITARY-GRADE WEAPONS, SOMETIMES WITH ARMED TANKS, WHICH WOULD ONLY INCITE FURTHER COMMUNITY VIOLENCE.

AND THEN THEY WOULD BURN STORES OUT, LOOT, LIKE WE SEE TODAY, AND THE CYCLE WOULD PLAY OUT FOR A NUMBER OF DAYS.

INSTEAD OF RESPONDING TO THE INQUALITIES AT THE ROOT CAUSE OF THIS POLITICAL VIOLENCE, THE RESPONSE IS MORE POLICE, MORE VIOLENCE, AND LOCKING PEOPLE UP AND THROWING AWAY THE KEYS.

>> Braude: YOU SAID SOMETHING SPECIFICALLY, WHICH MADE ME THINK OF ANOTHER PERSON WITH YALE CONNECTIONS, I CAN'T IMAGINE HOW YOU REACTED WHEN HILLARY CLINTON WOULD SAY ABOUT THE CRIME BILL OF '94, ESSENTIALLY WE GAVE BLACK AMERICA WHAT BLACK AMERICA -- I CAN SEE IT IN YOUR FACE ALREADY -- WANTED.

WHAT WAS YOUR RESPONSE TO WHAT CLINTON HAD TO SAY.

>> OUT OF ALL OF THE THINGS THAT BLACK PEOPLE HAVE BEEN DEMANDING FOR CENTURIES, BUT ESSENTIALLY AT THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, WHY IS IT THE ONLY THING THEY GET IS MORE POLICE AND MORE INCARCERATION?

I CALL THIS SELECTIVE HEARING.

INSTEAD OF ACTUALLY LISTENING TO WHAT COMMUNITIES ARE SAYING, THEY'RE IS SAYING WE WANT RESOURCES, ROBUST CRIME PREVENTION AND BETTER POLICING, BUT INSTEAD POLICY-MAKERS HEAR MORE POLICING.

AND THAT LEGISLATION ITSELF WAS DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SKYROCKETING OF THE PRISONS IN THE '90s, AND ANOTHER $10 BILLION IN THE EXPANSION OF POLICING.

>> Braude: WE TALKED ABOUT YOU ON OUR RADIO SHOW BECAUSE A CALLER CALLED IN WAS PRAISING LINDEN JOHNSON FOR HIS WORK ON CIVIL RIGHTS AND THE WAR ON POVERTY.

AND THEN I MENTIONED THAT I WAS FINISHING UP YOUR BOOK, OBVIOUSLY, YOUR FIRST BOOK ON THE WAR ON POVERTY.

YOU RIGHT THAT ROUGHLY A YEAR AFTER THE LEGENDARY WAR ON POVERTY WAS ANNOUNCED, THE WAR ON CRIME FOLLOWED UNDER JOHNSON, OF COURSE.

EXPLAIN TO PEOPLE WHAT THAT INITIATED FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO LOCAL COMMUNITIES.

>> YEAH.

JOHNSON IS A REALLY COMPLICATED FIGURE.

UNFORTUNATELY, THE WAR ON CRIME ENDED UP BEING HIS MOST ENDURING LEGACY, MUCH MORE SO THAN THE WAR ON POVERTY.

BEGINNING IN '65, YOU KNOW, ACTUALLY A WEEK BEFORE JOHNSON SENT THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT TO CONGRESS, HE DECLARED THE WAR ON CRIME AND BEGAN AN UNPRECEDENTED INVESTMENT IN LOCAL POLICE FORCES AND PRISONS AND COURT SYSTEMS FOR THE FIRST TIME IN U.S. HISTORY.

THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAD NEVER GRANTED LOCAL POLICE DEPARTMENTS DIRECTLY BEFORE, AND BEGINNING IN 1965, IN THE CONTEXT OF WATTS AND HARLEM, THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT BEGAN PUMPING RESOURCES INTO THE EXPANSION OF POLICE AND MILITARIZING THEM WITH TANKS AND HELICOPTERS AND TEAR GAS AND OTHER SURPLUS WEAPONS FROM VIETNAM AND INTERVENTIONS IN LATIN-AMERICA AND THE CARIBBEAN.

>> Braude: BUT JOHNSON HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO ATONE FOR THOSE SINS WITH THE KERNER COMMISSION, APPOINTED BY HIM, AND THEN ONCE ITS FINDINGS CAME OUT, REJECTED BY HIM.

LET ME JUST READ A DROP FROM THE 1968 KERNER COMMISSION REPORT, KERNER BEING THE ILLINOIS GOVERNOR.

THIS IS OUR BASIC CONCLUSION: "OUR NATION IS MOVING FORWARD TOWARDS TWO SOCIETIES: ONE BLACK, ONE WHITE, SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL, DISCRIMINATION, AND SEGREGATION, WHICH LONG PERMEATED MUCH OF AMERICAN LIFE, IT NOW THREATENS THE FUTURE OF EVERY AMERICAN.

IT WILL REQUIRE NEW ATTITUDES, NEW UNDERSTANDING, AND ABOVE ALL, NEW WILL."

JOHNSON ACTED AS IF THAT NEVER EXISTED.

IS IT BECAUSE HE DIDN'T LIKE THE MESSAGE OR THE COST THAT WAS ATTENDANT TO DOING WHAT KERNER -- WHAT WAS THE REJECTION ALL ABOUT?

>> PART OF IT, I THINK, REFLECTS THE CONSISTENT UNWILLINGNESS ON THE PART OF EVEN OUR MOST LIBERAL POLICY-MAKERS TO ALLOCATE THE RESOURCES NECESSARY TO FULLY CONFRONT THE PROBLEM OF RACIAL INEQUALITY.

THE KERNER WAS ONE OF THE BIGGEST MISSED OPPORTUNITIES IN THE U.S.

IF WE SHOW IT TO THE RACE ROLE IN REBELLION AND RIOTING -- OKAY, IF WE'RE SERIOUS ABOUT PREVENTING UNREST IN THE FUTURE AND DEALING WITH RACIAL INEQUALITY, WE HAVE TO GO FAR BEYOND THE WAR ON POLICY.

WE NEED A MASSIVE INVESTMENT INTO LOW-INCOME COMMUNITIES.

INSTEAD OF A JOB CREATION PROGRAM FOR AMERICANS OF COLOR, WE GET THROUGH THE WAR ON CRIME A JOB CREATION PROGRAM FOR POLICE.

JOHNSON AND OTHERS WERE JUST RESISTANT TO TRANSFORMING THE RACIAL HIERARCHIES THAT HAVE DEFINED THIS COUNTRY HISTORICALLY.

WOULD GEORGE FLOYD HAVE HAPPENED TODAY HAD WE PURSUED THAT ALTERNATIVE PATH THAT THE KERNER COMMISSION LAID OUT, I THINK IS THE QUESTION.

>> Braude: LET'S MOVE 50 YEARS PLUS TO GEORGE FLOYD.

READING YOUR BOOK, IT KEPT GETTING ME TO THE CONCLUSION BY DAY WE DEBATE THE GEORGE FLOYD JUSTICE AND POLICING ACT, BUT IN SOME WAYS I THINK YOU'RE SAYING IT IS A SOLUTION TO THE WRONG PROBLEM.

IS THAT FAIR?

>> IT'S ALMOST -- IT'S ALMOST BEHIND THE TIMES.

I THINK, YOU KNOW, WHAT THE KERNER COMMISSION SAID IS WE HAVE TO MOVE BEYOND POLICING ITSELF IF WE WANT TO DEAL WITH THESE PROBLEMS.

WE HAVE TO PUMP RESOURCES INTO COMMUNITIES.

WE HAVE TO EMPOWER MARGINALIZED AMERICANS.

AND POLICING REFORMS -- WE KNOW BODY CAMS, AS THE OPENING CLIP POINTED OUT, AREN'T NECESSARILY GOING TO PREVENT POLICE VIOLENCE.

THE POLICE PERFORM CHOKEHOLDS.

THE FOUR OFFICERS WHO BEAT RODNEY KING SAID WE BEAT THEM WITH OUR NIGHTSTICKS AND OUR FISTS AND OUR FEET BECAUSE WE COULDN'T USE A CHOKEHOLD.

THESE POLICE REFORMS ARE NOT GOING TO SOLVE THE SOCIO-ECONOMIC PROBLEMS THAT LEAD TO THE POLICE VIOLENCE.

NOW IS THE TIME TO SAY WE NEED TO PURSUE A SET OF DOMESTIC POLICIES FOR LOW-INCOME COMMUNITIES.

ONE THAT MOVES BEYOND THE POLICE AND PRISONS THAT HAVE BEEN GUIDING SINCE CIVIL RIGHTS.

>> Braude: OBVIOUSLY THE DEFUNDING MOVEMENT DISCUSSION STARTED A YEAR AGO, AND, OF COURSE, ITS OPPONENTS BRANDED IT IN A WAY THAT MAKES IT LOOK AS UNAPPEALING AND UNSAFE AS THEY POSSIBLY CAN, BUT THE CORE NOTION FOR MOST WITH I'VE SPOKEN ABOUT DEFUNDING MEANS REDIRECTING A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF POLICE REVENUE TO THE KINDS OF THINGS YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

ITHECA, NEW YORK, ABOLISHED THE POLICE AND CREATED A NEW FORCE.

IS ANYBODY TALKING ABOUT THE KERNER COMMISSION AND WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT?

>> I THINK THERE IS MOMENTUM GROWING, AND THIS CALLS FOR WHAT DEFUND IS ALL ABOUT.

CALLING FOR A DIFFERENT SET OF INVESTMENTS.

AND ITHECA, WHICH ABOLISHED ITS POLICE DEPARTMENT, AND REPLACED IT WITH A DEPARTMENT OF COMMUNITY PUBLIC SAFETY, AND WAS COMPLETELY SUPPORTED BY THE POLICE UNION, SHOWS US THAT THIS IS POSSIBLE, IS CREATING A BETTER ALTERNATIVE TO PUBLIC SAFETY, ONE THAT ACTUALLY WILL RESPOND TO SOME OF THE MOST PRESSING SOCIAL PROBLEMS WITHIN COMMUNITIES IN A MUCH MORE HUMANE WAY THAT HAS THE POTENTIAL TO SAVE LIVES.

I THINK WE HAVE SEEN, FOR THE LAST 50 SOME YEARS, THESE POLICIES DON'T WORK.

IN MANY PLACES GUN VIOLENCE IS RISING, AND INEQUALITY HAS BEEN EXACERBATED.

SO NOW IT IS TIME TO TRY A DIFFERENT SET OF POLICIES.

>> Braude: I ASSUME YOUR GOAL IS NOT JUST TO CORRECT HISTORY.

WHAT ARE YOU HOPING PEOPLE WILL TAKE AWAY FROM THIS BOOK?

>> EXACTLY WHAT WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT.

ONE OF THE BIG LESSONS IS WE NEED TO MOVE BEYOND POLICE REFORM, AND CRIME CONTROL AS A SOLUTION, MEANING POLICING AND INCARCERATIONRATION AS A WAY TO MANAGE, THE SOCIO-ECONOMIC INECO-INEQUALITIES IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST PROBLEMS.

WE HAVE TO THINK ABOUT INVESTING A DIFFERENT SET OF RESOURCES INTO OUR COMMUNITIES IF WE WANT TO REALIZE THAT UNFULFILLED PROMISE OF TRUE EQUALITY IN THE UNITED STATES.

>> Braude: ELIZABETH, YOUR BOOK IS TERRIFIC.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> Braude: THE BOOK, AGAIN, IS "AMERICA ON FIRE: THE UNTOLD HISTORY OF POLICE VIOLENCE AND BLACK REBELLION SINCE THE 1960s."

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, BUT COME BACK TOMORROW.

FORMER CONGRESSIONAL CANDIDATE JESSE MERMELL AND ATTORNEY ROSINA LUCIBELLO SHARE MORE THAN JUST A FRIENDSHIP: THEY NOW SHARE A KIDNEY, TOO.

THEY JOIN ME ON MERMELL'S LIFE-SAVING DECISION TO BECOME A LIVING KIDNEY DONOR TO ROSINA LUCIBELLO, AND HOW THEY'VE BOTH BEEN RECOVERING.

THAT AND MORE, TOMORROW AT 7:00.

AND IN JUST A FEW MINUTES, STAY TUNED FOR A NEW EPISODE OF "RICK STEVES EUROPE AWAITS."

HE'LL TAKE US THROUGH THE EUROPEAN DESTINATIONS HE'LL BE VISITING ONCE IT'S SAFE TO TRAVEL INTERNATIONALLY AGAIN.

THANKS FOR WATCHING AND PLEASE STAY SAFE.

♪♪ Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org