TONIGHT ON GREATER BOSTON, BOSTON'’S PRIDE PARADE IS BACK AND UNDER NEW LEADERSHIP.

THE HEAD OF THE GROUP POSTING THIS YEAR CELEBRATION JOINS ME AHEAD.

THEN, THE PUBLIC OUTCRY OVER THE PGA TOUR DECISION TO PARTNER WITH SAUDI BACKED LIV GOLF AND M.I.T.

M.I.T.

PROFESSOR AND AUTHOR ZEYNEP TON ON HOW COMPANIES BENEFIT FROM PAYING EMPLOYEES MORE.

IT IS A TROUBLING TIME FOR THE LGBTQ+ COMMUNITY WITH THREATS OF VIOLENCE AND A WAVE OF HOMOPHOBIC AND TRANSPHOBIA LAWS PROMPTING THE HUMAN RIGHTS CAMPAIGN TO DECLARE A NATIONAL EMERGENCY IN THE UNITED STATES.

THERE IS ONE BIG REASON TO CELEBRATE.

HERE IN BOSTON THE PRIDE PARADE IS FINALLY BACK THIS WEEKEND FOR THE FIRST TIME IN THREE YEARS.

AFTER THE PANDEMIC FORCED CANCELLATIONS IN 2020 AND 2021.

IN 2022 THE FORMER BOSTON PRIDE ORGANIZATION DISSOLVED OVER COMPLAINTS OF RACISM AND TRANSPHOBIA.

NOW A NEW GROUP IS IN CHARGE.

BOSTON PRIDE FOR THE PEOPLE.

THE PRESIDENT ADRIANNA BOULLIN JOINS ME NOW.

HAPPY PRIDE.

ADRIANNA: THANK YOU, HOW DEPART YOU TOO.

SUE: TELL ME WHAT IS NEW ABOUT THIS PRIDE COMMITTEE.

I KNOW PEOPLE HAVE BEEN MAKING THE ASSOCIATION TO THE POP UP PRIDE LAST YEAR.

TELL ME WHO BOSTON PRIDE FOR THE PEOPLE IS.

ADRIANNA: BOSTON PRIDE FOR THE PEOPLE STARTED LAST SEPTEMBER.

WHAT WE STARTED FROM WAS A YEAR OF A LOT OF PEOPLE SAYING, WOW, WE ARE THE ONES THAT HAVE TO SHOW UP AND BE WHAT WE WERE ASKING FOR.

YOU MENTIONED POP UP PRIDE.

A NUMBER OF ORGANIZERS, SOME AFFILIATED WITH BOSTON PRIDE FOR THE PEOPLE AND OTHERS CAME TOGETHER TO DO A POP UP PRIDE CELEBRATION AND THERE HAVE BEEN OTHER DIFFERENT ACTIVATIONS THROUGHOUT THE CITY.

AFTER THOSE ACTIVATIONS AND ALL THE WORK PEOPLE DID WE THOUGHT, OK, LET'’S COME TOGETHER AND THINK ABOUT WHAT THIS COULD ACTUALLY LOOK LIKE, WHAT WE MIGHT NEED TO DO AND HOW WE COULD GO ABOUT THIS.

I LOVED WE STARTED WITH VISIONING TO UNDERSTAND.

THAT GETS TO WHAT I SEE AS DIFFERENT.

WHAT OUR FOUNDATION HAS BEEN.

OUR FOCUS AS AN ORGANIZATION IS TO PLAN THE YEARLY PARADE AND FESTIVAL, ONE, AND TWO, TO UPLIFT THINGS GOING ON THROUGHOUT OUR CITY LED BIO TO BE DEQUEUE THE -- LGBTQ LEADERS AND ORGANIZERS AND ORGANIZATIONS THROUGHOUT THE YEAR.

WE RECOGNIZE PRIDE STARTED AS A PROTEST.

PEOPLE RISKED THEIR LIVES, LOST THEIR LIVES, AND EXPERIENCED A LOT OF HARM FOR US TO LIVE A LOT OF THE FREEDOMS WE LIVE NOW.

WE WANT TO HONOR THAT AND SHOW THAT.

THE SECOND IS EDUCATION.

THERE ARE A LOT OF FREEDOMS WE AS A COMMUNITY AND IN OUR COMMUNITIES ARE ABLE TO EXPERIENCE.

THERE IS A LOT OF OPPRESSION WE ARE EXPERIENCING.

OUR COMMUNITIES ARE STILL UNDER ATTACK.

FOLKS IN THE TRANS COMMUNITY, OUR YOUTH ARE STILL FIGHTING TO BE THEMSELVES, FOR AFFIRMING CARE.

THERE IS STILL EDUCATION TO BE DONE AND WE WANT THAT ALSO AT THE FOUNDATION.

COMMEMORATION, EDUCATION, EMPOWERMENT.

SO MUCH CHANGE NEEDS TO HAPPEN IN OUR COMMUNITIES AND WE ARE THE ONES TO MAKE THAT CHANGE.

BUT, WE CANNOT BE THE ONES IF WE DON'’T HAVE THE RESOURCES, AND THE ACCESS AND WE ARE NOT EMPOWERED AND PUT IN LEADERSHIP ROLES AND SUPPORTED IN THOSE ROLES TO ACTUALLY MAKE CHANGE.

WE WANT OUR ACTIVITIES TO EMPOWER OUR COMMUNITY.

LAST IS CELEBRATION.

WE ARE WORTHY OF JOY AND THERE IS SO MUCH TO BE HAPPY ABOUT AND SO MUCH JOY THAT CAN BE SHARED AND SPREAD.

NOT HAVING A CELEBRATION LIKE THIS SINCE 2019, THERE IS SO MUCH TO BE SAID.

WHAT IS DIFFERENT IS REALLY WHAT IS AT THE FOUNDATION I SHARED ABOUT EVERYTHING WE DO.

THAT IS DIFFERENT THAN IT HAS BEEN.

SUE: ONE OF THE CHALLENGES YOUR ORGANIZATION HAS HAD.

I HAVE JOKED WITH FOLKS THAT I AM AN INSTITUTIONALIST.

IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM GO TO THAT INSTITUTION ON THE INSIDE AND TRY TO CHANGE IT THAT WAY.

THAT OPPORTUNITY WAS NOT NECESSARILY AVAILABLE TO YOU FOLKS PLANNING THE PRIDE CELEBRATION.

YOU HAD TO BUILD STUFF FROM SCRATCH AND YOU BROUGHT A LOT OF PEOPLE TO THE TABLE, A LOT OF CONSTITUENCIES.

HOW HAS IT BEEN NAVIGATING BUILDING SOMETHING FROM SCRATCH IN THE WORLD WE ARE IN NOW?

ADRIANNA: IT'’S A LOT.

IT IS MORE THAN I KNEW AND WE AS AN ORGANIZING COMMITTEE KNEW WHEN WE SAID YES.

WE LOVE THIS WORK.

SO WE SIGNED UP FOR IT.

BUT, IT'’S A LOT OF WORK.

IT'’S A LOT OF WORK TO BE INCLUSIVE, TO BE ACCESSIBLE.

IT TAKES A LOT OF WORK AND I WAS ON FOR THINGS TO HAPPEN AT ONCE.

WE ARE ALSO LEARNING IT DOES NOT HAPPEN ALL AT ONCE.

HOW DO WE KEEP THE WORK GOING AND SET GOALS AND BUILD CAPACITY TO ACCOMPLISH WHAT YOU WANT TO CONTINUE TO ACCOMPLISH?

IT'’S BEEN A BEAUTIFUL PROCESS TO CONNECT AND ENGAGE WITH PEOPLE AND HEAR PEOPLE FEELING HAPPY THEY ARE ACTUALLY BEING ASKED WHAT PRIDE LOOKS LIKE FOR THEM AND WHAT THEY WANT TO SEE.

SUE: IF FOLKS WANT TO COME INTO THE CITY THIS WEEKEND TO CELEBRATE PRIDE, WHAT CAN THEY EXPECT?

ADRIANNA: OUR PARADE STARTS AT 11:00 A.M.

IN COPLEY AND MARCHES DOWN TO BOSTON COMMON.

THERE ARE TWO FESTIVAL AREAS.

ONE AT BOSTON COMMONS THAT IS ALL AGES.

WE HAVE DIFFERENT AREAS FOR YOUTH, AGING OLDIE -- OLDER ADULTS, FAMILIES.

WE HAVE A BIPOC MARKETPLACE.

WE HAVE VENDORS, ESTATES, A BEER GARDEN.

QUIET AREAS.

WE ARE TRYING TO CREATE SPACES FOR EVERYONE AND IF THERE ARE SO MANY THINGS GOING IN THE CITY.

WE SEEK TO SPREAD JOY.

S ONE OF THE TALKS YOU WALKED WAS INVOLVING YOURSELF WITH BUSINESSES AND ORGANIZATIONS THAT ARE NOT JUST HERE FOR THE MONEY OR TO FLED.

-- TO WAVE A FLAG.

WHAT ARE SOME OF THE STANDARDS YOU HAVE APPLIED TO PEOPLE PARTICIPATING IN PRIDE CELEBRATIONS?

ADRIANNA: WHAT IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO US IN BUILDING ALLIES IN THIS WORK WITH PARTNERS IS ENSURING THEY HAVE NOT CONTRIBUTED TO ANY ANTIQUE LGBTQ -- ANTI-LGBTQ, ANTIABORTION LEGISLATION.

WE LOOK AT INDEXES TO SEE WHERE THESE BUSINESSES ARE AND USE IT AS A FRAMEWORK TO GUIDE OUR INTERACTIONS AND PARTNERSHIPS WITH THEM.

SUE: IS PRIDE STILL IMPORTANT?

ADRIANNA: TO ME, PRIDE IS STILL IMPORTANT.

THROUGH OUR PLANNING OF THIS, TO ME, IT IS IMPORTANT TO OUR CITY TOO.

SUE: TALK ABOUT THE MESSAGES YOU WOULD LIKE STRAIGHT ALLIES THAT COME INTO THE CITY OR THAT ARE WATCHING AND WOULD LIKE TO PARTICIPATE, WHAT IS THE ONE MESSAGE YOU WOULD LIKE THEM TO LEAVE A PRIDE CELEBRATION WITH?

ADRIANNA: CENTRE OUR LGBTQ+ COMMUNITY.

THAT'’S WHAT WE WANT OUR ACTIVITIES TO LOOK LIKE.

WE WANT PEOPLE TO ENGAGE AND SUPPORT OUR COMMUNITY IN THIS WAY.

AS A STRAIGHT ALLY OR ANYONE COMING TO SUPPORT THE WORK, SHOW UP AND CENTER MEMBERS OF THE COMMUNITY.

IF THERE ARE SO MANY WAYS TO DO THAT.

SUE: YOU LOOK VERY WELL RESTED FOR SOMEBODY WITH A BIG EVENT COMING UP.

I APPRECIATE ALL OF THE WORK YOU ARE DOING.

ADRIANNA BOULLIN, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

HAPPY PRIDE.

FOR A LIST OF ALL THE PRIDE EVENTS PLANNED FOR BOSTON AND BEYOND HEAD TO GBH NEWS -- GBHNEWS.ORG.

A SURPRISE NEW MERGER AGREEMENT IS ROCKING THE WORLD OF GOLF AND THRUSTING THE SPORT INTO A HUMAN RIGHTS CRISIS.

THE PGA TOUR ANNOUNCED A PARTNERSHIP WITH SAUDI BACKED RIVAL LIV GOLF.

THE TWO ORGANIZATIONS HAVE BEEN AT ODDS WHEN -- SINCE LIV WAS FOUNDED IN 2021 AND ITS LEADERSHIP DANGLED A MULTIMILLION DOLLAR CONTRACT IN FRONT OF SEVERAL PGA PLAYERS TO TRY TO GET THEM TO DEFECT.

AT SOME BIG NAMES DID, BUT MANY DID NOT CITING THE SAUDI GOVERNMENT'’S LONG TRACK RECORD OF HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES INCLUDING THE MURDER OF WASHINGTON POST JOURNALIST JAMAAL KHASHOGGI.

AND QUESTIONS ABOUT THE COUNTRY'’S INVOLVEMENT IN THE 9/11 ATTACKS.

PGA BRANDED ITSELF AS THE MORAL ALTERNATIVE TO LIV.

WELL, NOW, THE PGA DECISION TO JOIN FORCES WITH THEM IS LEAVING PLAYERS AND FANS FEELING BETRAYED.

>> I RECOGNIZE THAT PEOPLE WILL CALL ME A HYPOCRITE.

ANYTIME I HAVE SAID ANYTHING I HAVE SAID IT WITH THE INFORMATION I HAD AT THAT MOMENT.

AND I SAID IT BASED ON SOMEONE TRYING TO COMPETE FOR THE PGA TOUR AND OUR PLAYERS.

SO, I ACCEPT THOSE CRITICISMS.

BUT, CIRCUMSTANCES CHANGE.

I THINK IN LOOKING AT THE BIG PICTURE, LOOKING AT IT THIS WAY, THAT GOT US TO THIS POINT.

SUE: A LONGTIME SPORTS JOURNALIST SHIRA SPRINGER JOINS US NOW.

LIV, WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE?

WHAT HAPPENED?

SHIRA: THERE WAS NOT MUCH COMPETITION IN THE SENSE THAT IT DID NOT HAVE A LOT OF NAME RECOGNITION OUTSIDE OF GOLF CIRCLES.

IT WAS NOT LIKE LIV WAS BEATING DOWN THE DOOR OF THE PGA.

BUT, THE PGA CERTAINLY FELT THAT THERE WAS ENOUGH OF A THREAT THERE THAT THEY NEEDED TO MERGE.

REALLY, IT ALL COMES DOWN TO MONEY.

THE SAUDI'’S PUBLIC INVESTMENT FUND AGREED TO INVEST AN AWFUL LOT OF MONEY IN THE PGA AHEAD OF THAT FUND.

-- THE PGA.

THE HEAD OF THAT FUND IT NOW BECOMES THE HEAD OF THIS MERGE TOUR AND MONAHAN, WHO YOU SAW THERE, BECOMES THE CEO.

THAT'’S THE ARRANGEMENT.

SUE: WHAT HAPPENS TO THE GOLFERS THAT DID NOT TAKE VIDEO IN THE BEGINNING?

SOME GOLFERS GOT A LOT OF MONEY.

SOME SAID, NO, I WILL STAY WITH THE PGA BUT NOW THEY ARE WITH LIV.

WILL THEY GET MONEY TOO?

THEY SHOULD.

IT IS UNKNOWN YET WHETHER THEY WILL OR WHAT THE COMPENSATION WILL BE.

OR FRANKLY, WHAT THE PUNISHMENT WILL BE FOR THOSE PGA GOLFERS THAT ESSENTIALLY DEFECTED TO THE LIV GOLF TOUR FOR MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS OF DOLLARS.

BUT WE KNOW FOR OBVIOUS REASONS THAT THE GOLFERS THAT STAYED LOYAL TO PGA ARE NOT HAPPY.

AMONG THAT NUMBER IS RORY MCILROY WHO REPORTEDLY TURNED DOWN $300 MILLION TO STAY LOYAL TO THE PGA TOUR.

HE SAID IN STATEMENTS I BELIEVE EARLIER TODAY THAT HE FELT LIKE A SACRIFICIAL LAMB BECAUSE OF THAT.

HE WAS VERY ANGRY.

HE STILL HATED LIV.

BUT, BEING A BIT PRAGMATIC, HE UNDERSTANDS THE FINANCIAL APPLICATIONS AND THAT THIS INVESTMENT BY THE SAUDIS WILL PUT THE PGA, AND, FRIENDLY, MEN'’S PROFESSIONAL GOLF ON MORE SOLID FINANCIAL FOOTING.

I THINK HE IS TRYING TO MAKE THE BEST OF A REALLY BAD, REALLY DISAPPOINTING SITUATION BECAUSE HE WAS VERY VERY OUTSPOKEN IN HIS LOYALTY TO THE PGA.

SUE: LET'’S GET TO SOME OF THE SPORTS WASHING ACCUSATIONS HERE.

CONNECTICUT SENATORS CHRIS MURPHY AND RICHARD BLUMENTHAL TODAY HAD SOMETHING TO SAY THAT CONDEMNED THE PARTNERSHIP.

>> I THINK IT IS A REALLY SERIOUS THING.

TO HAVE A FOREIGN DICTATORSHIP IN CHARGE OF THE MAJOR U.S. SPORTS LEAGUE.

LET'’S BE HONEST.

THE SAUDI'’S ARE NOT BUYING THE PGA BECAUSE THEY LOVE GOLF.

THEY ARE BUYING THE PGA BECAUSE THEY WANT TO ERASE THEIR DIZZYING CAMPAIGN OF POLITICAL REPRESSION.

>> IF PGA REALLY WANTS TO MAKE AMENDS FOR THIS REALLY ABSOLUTELY IMPORTANT MERGER, IT OUGHT TO BE SUPPORTING 9/11 FAMILIES RATHER THAN MERGING WITH AN ORGANIZATION THAT TRIED TO SMEAR THEM.

SUE: I SAW SOMEONE ON SOCIAL MEDIA SAY YESTERDAY, I GUESS WE WILL ALL STOP BUYING GASOLINE AS WELL.

WHAT IS THEIR REACTION TO THE IDEA THAT THE SAUDI'’S ARE TRYING TO FIX THEIR BRAND OR BURNISHING THEIR BRAND BY BEING INVOLVED IN AMERICAN GOLF OR WORLD INTERNATIONAL GOLF?

SHIRA: PEOPLE SEE IT FOR WHAT IT IS, SPORTS WASHING, TRYING TO CHANGE THEIR IMAGE GLOBALLY BY BUYING INTO SPORTS AND BASICALLY CONTROLLING MEN'’S PROFESSIONAL GOLF, NOW.

THIS IS NOT THEIR ONLY ATTEMPT AT SPORTS WASHING.

THEY BASICALLY BOUGHT CRISTIANO RONALDO, ONE OF THE MOST WELL-KNOWN SOCCER PLAYERS IN THE WORLD.

HE NOW PLAYS IN SAUDI ARABIA.

AND ANOTHER HIGH-PROFILE SACO PLAYER KAREN BEN SUMMA -- SOCCER PLAYER KAREN BEN SUMMA IS LEAVING TO PLAY IN SAUDI ARABIA FOR BIG BUCKS.

THE SAUDI'’S CLEARLY SEE SPORTS AS A WAY TO PUT, I WOULD SAY, A FRIENDLIER FACE ON THEIR AUTHORITARIAN REGIME.

AND THEIR HUMAN RIGHTS.

TO BASICALLY COVER UP THEIR HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS.

PEOPLE RECOGNIZE THAT.

PEOPLE SEE THAT.

BUT, I WILL GO BACK TO RORY MCILROY.

HE SAID, IT'’S HARD TO COMPETE WITH PEOPLE THAT HAVE MORE MONEY.

FRANKLY, WHO WILL PROBABLY ALWAYS HAVE MORE MONEY.

SUE: DID THE SAUDI'’S INVENT THIS?

SHIRA: NO.

SUE: HOW LONG HAS THIS BEEN GOING ON, THIS SPORTS WASHING?

SHIRA: I MARK IT AS BEGINNING IN SOME WAYS WITH THE 1936 BERLIN OLYMPICS, OFTEN CALLED THE NAZI GAMES BECAUSE THEY WERE THE OLYMPICS HITLER'’S USED TO SPREAD PROPAGANDA ABOUT THE NAZI REGIME.

THERE HAVE BEEN EXAMPLES THAT WENT ON BEFORE THAT, BUT TO ME, THAT IS A REAL TURNING POINT IN THE SENSE OF WHEN A COUNTRY, A GOVERNMENT, A DICTATORSHIP USES SPORTS TO PROJECT A CERTAIN IMAGE THAT IS CONTRARY TO WHAT IS GOING ON INSIDE THE COUNTRY.

THEY USE IT TO SPORTS WASH THEIR POLITICS.

BASICALLY.

I TRACE IT TO THAT, BUT, IT HAS ALSO BEEN GOING ON A LOT RECENTLY.

YOU HAVE RUSSIA HOSTING THE WORLD CUP.

YOU HAVE RUSSIA POSTING THE WINTER OLYMPIC GAMES.

I WAS AT THOSE GAMES IN SAUGET IN 2014.

I VIVIDLY REMEMBER THREE DAYS BEFORE THEY ENDED, WHAT DOES VLADIMIR PUTIN DO?

INVADES CRIMEA.

USING SPORTS AS A COVER IS NOT UNCOMMON.

BEIJING, WINTER OLYMPICS.

RECENTLY, THE MEN'’S WORLD CUP IN QATAR.

THIS IS NOT NEW.

IT'’S BEEN GOING ON FOR A WHILE AND WILL KEEP GOING ON BECAUSE, BOTTOM LINE, SPORTS IS A BUSINESS AND WHETHER IT IS FIFA OR THE IOC, OR COME ELSEWHERE, OR GOLF, THEY WILL FOLLOW THE MONEY BECAUSE THEY NEEDED THAT MONEY AND THEY NEED PEOPLE TO BE ALIGNED, FRANKLY, WITH PEOPLE THAT WILL INVEST LOTS IN THEIR SPORTS.

SUE: I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN AMAZED AS FOLKS THAT ARE SPORTS FANS BUT DON'’T UNDERSTAND THE BUSINESS PART OF IT.

THAT WHEN YOUR FAVORITE PLAYER GOES TO ANOTHER TEAM, YOU ARE PERSONALLY HEARD, BUT IT IS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY.

WHAT IS A GOLF FAN SUPPOSED TO DO?

SAY YOU ARE A HUGE MEN'’S GOLF FAN.

DO YOU EXPECT THEY WILL BOYCOTT?

DO YOU THINK IT WILL BE BUSINESS AS USUAL?

I WILL KEEP DOING WHAT I DO, WATCHING WHAT I WATCH.

SHIRA: I THINK MEN'’S GOLF FANS WILL KEEP WATCHING WHAT THEY WATCH.

IT HAS NOT HISTORICALLY BEEN A PARTICULARLY PROTEST ORIENTED FANDOM.

RIGHT?

SO, I DO NOT THINK THE OUTSPOKENNESS WELL, OR THERE WILL BE MUCH OUTSPOKENNESS FROM FANS OF MEN'’S PROFESSIONAL GOLF.

BUT THERE HAS BEEN WHEN IT COMES TO FANS OF THE OLYMPICS, FANS OF THE WORLD CUP.

I THINK THE MORE THIS GOES ON AND THE MORE YOU SEE AUTHORITARIAN REGIMES USING THESE BIG INTERNATIONAL SPORTS EVENTS TO SPORTS WASH, I THINK THERE WILL BE MORE PROTESTS.

THAT IS THE FANDOM I THINK THAT YOU WILL SEE MORE PROTESTS AND MORE OUTSPOKENNESS FROM.

SUE: IS THERE ANY UPSIDE TO THIS?

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT JAMAAL KHASHOGGI AGAIN.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE CONNECTION OF SAUDI ARABIA AND 9/11, WHICH, FOR YEARS, WE DID NOT SPEAK ABOUT.

IS THERE AN UPSIDE HERE?

IS THERE OPPORTUNITY?

SHIRA: I THINK AWARENESS ALWAYS BRINGS AN UPSIDE, RIGHT?

YOU MENTIONED WE ARE TALKING ABOUT ALL OF THESE ELEMENTS AND ASPECTS OF SAUDI ARABIA WE WERE NOT TALKING ABOUT BEFORE.

NOW THEY ARE SORT OF TOP OF MIND.

ANYTHING THAT BRINGS THESE HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS AND OTHER ISSUES TOP OF MIND I THINK IS VALUABLE.

BUT, I DO NOT THINK THAT THERE IS TREMENDOUS OPPORTUNITY.

IT COMES IN CYCLES, RIGHT?

THIS WILL BE THE NEWS FOR WHEN HE 4, 48, 72 HOURS AND THEN FRAYED AWAY AND THEN -- FADE AWAY AND THEN THE NEXT INCIDENT OF SPORTS WASHING WILL COME TO THE FORE AGAIN AND THEN IT WILL PROCEED.

NOTHING WILL CHANGE UNTIL THE POLICIES OF AWARDING BIG SPORTS EVENTS OR OTHER POLICIES IN TERMS OF THE GOVERNANCE OF MAJOR SPORTS LEAGUES CHANGES.

THIS WILL BE TOP OF MIND NOW AND FADE AWAY.

BUT THERE HAS TO BE SOME SYSTEMIC CHANGE OR JUST SOME CHANGE IN GOVERNANCE OF THESE LEADS, THESE MAJOR INTERNATIONAL SPORTING ORGANIZATIONS, FOR THERE TO BE REAL CHANGE.

SUE: SHIRA SPRINGER I HAVE A FEELING WE WILL HAVE YOU BACK TO TALK ABOUT THIS AGAIN.

SHIRA: THANK YOU.

SUE: TO SAY IT HAS BEEN A CRAZY FEW YEARS FOR THE AMERICAN JOB MARKET WOULD BE AN UNDERSTATEMENT.

WITH MASS LAYOFFS AND THE SO-CALLED GREAT RESIGNATION ROCKING INDUSTRY AFTER INDUSTRY.

THE PANDEMIC WAS THE BEGINNING OF MANY OF THESE CHANGES.

THE ECONOMIC DOWNTURN AND EVEN THE WORK ETHIC OF YOUNGER GENERATIONS HAS TAKEN MUCH OF THE BLAME.

BUT, ONE LOCAL PROFESSOR IS POINTING THE FINGER AT EMPLOYERS IN HER NEW WORK -- NEW BOOK "THE CASE FOR GOOD JOBS: HOW GREAT COMPANIES BRING DIGNITY, PAY, AND MEANING TO EVERYONE'’S WORK".

M.I.T.

PROFESSOR OF OPERATIONS MANAGEMENT ZEYNEP TON LOOKS AT HOW EMPLOYERS TREAT AND PAY WORKERS.

SHE JOINS ME NOW.

WHAT PERFECT TIMING TO BE TALKING ABOUT THIS.

WELCOME.

ZEYNEP: THANK YOU.

SUE: IT'’S NOT JUST ABOUT THE PAY.

TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HOW YOU SORT OF INFILTRATED, AS A WORKER, AND AS SOMEONE LOOKING FOR WORK, HOW COMPANIES, ESPECIALLY RETAIL OPERATIONS, WERE MANAGING PEOPLE, AND WHAT YOU LEARNED.

ZEYNEP: YEAH, SO, MOST LEADERS WANT TO WIN, RIGHT?

AND THEY KNOW THAT WINNING REQUIRES A GREAT TEAM TO SUCCEED.

BUT WHAT I HAVE LEARNED WORKING WITH PHIL MANY COMPANIES, ANALYZING THEM IS THAT SO MANY LEADERS, ESPECIALLY IN SETTINGS LIKE RETAIL AND SERVICES THINK THEY CANNOT AFFORD TO PAY THEIR EMPLOYEES ENOUGH TO BE ABLE TO CREATE THAT TEAM.

SO, WHAT I HAVE FOUND IN MY RESEARCH, AND LATELY AT THE GOOD JOBS INSTITUTE, THE NONPROFIT I STARTED IN 2017, IS LOW PAY IS ACTUALLY VERY EXPENSIVE FOR COMPANIES, A LOT MORE THAN LEADERS MIGHT ASSUME.

ZEYNEP: -- SUE: WHY DO THEY THINK IT IS A GOOD IDEA OR EFFICIENT OR GOOD FOR THEIR BOTTOM LINE TO PAY SOMEONE AT THE LEAST AMOUNT POSSIBLE, NOT HAVE FLEXIBLE WORK HOURS, NOT BE ABLE TO ACCOMMODATE THE STUFF THAT HAPPENS TO ALL OF US IN LIFE, THEN, JUST GO THROUGH TRYING TO REPLACE THEM, WHICH IN THIS MARKET AND PRIOR MARKETS IS TOO HARD TO DO?

ZEYNEP: GREAT QUESTION.

TURNOVER IS SO EXPENSIVE.

WHY ON EARTH WOULD THEY OPERATE THAT WAY?

BECAUSE, FOR DECADES BUSINESS LEADERS HAVE BEEN TOLD LABOR IS JUST ANOTHER COST.

MARKET PAY IS THE RIGHT PAY, EVEN IF IT'’S NOT A LIVING WAGE.

LEAN AND MEAN DRIVES EFFICIENCY.

THIS TYPE OF MINDSET PREVENTS THEM FROM EVEN IMAGINING OPERATING ANY OTHER WAY.

WHAT I SHOW IN THE BOOK'’S TURNOVER IS REALLY EXPENSIVE.

THERE ARE DIRECT COSTS ASSOCIATED WITH TURNOVER AND ALSO COSTS RELATED TO LOST SALES, LOWER PRODUCTIVITY.

WHEN YOU OPERATE WITH HIGH TURNOVER THERE ARE GOOD MANAGEMENT PRACTICES YOU JUST CANNOT EXECUTE AND YOU CANNOT SERVE CUSTOMERS WELL.

HOW MANY RESTAURANTS, RETAIL STORES HAVE YOU SEEN WITH CLOSED SIGNS?

SUE: YOU MAKE A POINT IN THE BOOK, AT LEAST IN THE ARTICLE, ABOUT BEING ON THE RETAIL FLOOR AND SEEING THAT THE CLOTHES, THE PRODUCT IS NOT OUT ON THE RACK, IT IS IN THE BACK BECAUSE THERE WERE NOT ENOUGH WORKERS.

THAT EXTRAPOLATES TO OTHER INDUSTRIES, RIGHT?

ZEYNEP: YEAH.

I CAN ACROSS THIS PROBLEM.

I AM AN OPERATIONS PROFESSOR.

I DID NOT START OUT LOOKING AT JOB SPIRIT I WAS LOOKING AT RETAIL SUPPLY CHAINS.

I FOUND ONE OF THE BIGGEST PROBLEMS IN RETAIL SUPPLY CHAINS WAS THE LAST 10 YARDS OF THE SUPPLY CHAIN WHERE RETAILERS DROPPED THE BALL.

PRODUCTS ARE MISPLACED IN THE BACK ROOM INSTEAD OF ON THE SELLING FLOOR.

DATA WILL BE INACCURATE.

ONE OF THE BIGGEST REASONS WAS INVESTMENT IN PEOPLE.

STORES DID NOT HAVE ENOUGH PEOPLE OR THEY WERE INEXPERIENCED AND MAKING MISTAKES ALL THE TIME.

THIS HAPPENS OVER AND OVER AGAIN IN MANY DIFFERENT INDUSTRIES, NOT JUST RETAIL.

ANY INDUSTRY THAT OPERATES WITH HIGH TURNOVER HAS THIS PROBLEM.

THEY WILL NOT BE SALES.

BUT THERE COULD BE MISTAKES IN HOSPITALS LOST LIVES IN HEALTH CARE SETTING.

YES, THIS HAPPENS ANYWHERE WHERE WE EXPERIENCE HIGH TURNOVER.

SUE: I CAN ALREADY HEAR SOMEONE AT HOME THINKING, WELL, IF THE CEOS JUST TOOK A LITTLE BIT OF THE MONEY THEY WERE MAKING AND PUT IT BACK INTO THE OPERATING OF THEIR BUSINESSES BY WAY OF PAYING THE EMPLOYEES MORE AND INVESTING IN TRAINING FOR THE EMPLOYEES, THIS PROBLEM WOULD BE SOLVED.

WHY ARE THEY DOING THAT?

ZEYNEP: I THINK CEOS SHOULD LOOK AT WHAT LOW-WAGE WORKERS ARE MAKING AND COMPARE THAT TO THE LIVING WAGE IN THEIR AREA AND SEE, ARE THEY ABLE TO LIVE?

WHAT CAN WE DO TO MAKE THEIR WORK BETTER?

IT'’S NOT BECAUSE JUST BECAUSE YOU WANT TO TREAT PEOPLE RIGHT.

YOU HAVE TO TREAT PEOPLE RIGHT BECAUSE YOU NEED GOOD EMPLOYEES.

YOU NEED A GOOD TEAM TO BE ABLE TO SUCCEED AND I THINK CEOS SHOULD LOOK AT THEIR JOB DESIGN AND SEE, WHAT CAN WE DO TO BE ABLE TO CREATE THAT WINNING TEAM?

SUE: I HAVE HEARD MORE THAN ONE CEO OR BOSSE OR SMALL BUSINESS OWNER WHEN THEY ARE HIRING SOMEONE, EVEN IF THEY ARE HIRING SOMEONE TO WORK ON THEIR HOUSEHOLD STAFF, SAY SOMETHING LIKE, WELL, WE ALL HAVE TO AGREE NOT TO PAY MORE THAN THIS BECAUSE IT WILL RUIN THE HIRING MARKET, RIGHT?

IF WE PAY THIS PERSON $15 INSTEAD OF $10 OR THIS PERSON THIRD IN DOLLARS INSTEAD OF $30 INSTEAD OF $25 IT WILL PUT THE WHOLE THING OUT OF WHACK?

SHOULDN'’T IT ALL BE OUT OF WHACK?

ZEYNEP: I THINK FAIRNESS AND COMPRESSION ARE REAL ISSUES IN SO MANY COMPANIES.

THAT IS A FACT.

HOWEVER, THE GOOD COMPANIES THAT I HAVE STUDIED, LIKE COSTCO, LIKE HEB, THEY LOOK AT THEIR WORK AND SAY, WHAT IS THE HIGHEST WE CAN PAY?

WHILE MAKING A PROFIT AND OFFERING OUR CUSTOMERS THE BEST PRICES.

THE MENTALITY SHOULD BE, WHAT IS THE HIGHEST WE CAN PAY TO GET THE RIGHT TEAM TO SERVE CUSTOMERS BETTER?

HOW DO WE CREATE FAIRNESS IN OUR ORGANIZATIONS?

SUE: I AM A SMALL BUSINESS OWNER.

I USED TO HAVE A STAFF.

WHEN I HAD A STAFF I USED WHAT I CALLED THE STARSHIP ENTERPRISE FROM STAR TREK MODEL AREA WHEN YOU WATCH -- MODEL.

WHEN YOU WATCH A STAR TREK EPISODE, ON THE BRIDGE, EVERY OFFICER CAN AT LEAST DO THE MINIMUM REQUIREMENT OF EVERY OTHER POSITION ON THE BRIDGE.

SO, THE THERAPIST CAN FLY THE SHIP.

THE ENGINEER CAN FIRE THE WEAPONS.

YOU MAKE A POINT LIKE THAT.

THAT IT SHOULD BE IMPORTANT FOR EMPLOYERS TO INVEST IN EMPLOYEES BEING ABLE TO DO MORE THAN JUST THEIR JOBS.

ZEYNEP: YES.

PART OF MY GOODS JOB STRATEGY, THE SECRET SAUCE, ACTUALLY, IS TO INCREASE THE PRODUCTIVITY OF WORKERS BY CROSSTRAINING THEM, BY EMPOWERING THEM, SIMPLY FIND THEIR WORK.

ONE OF MY FAVORITE EXAMPLES OF THIS FROM MY RECENT SMALL BUSINESS EXAMPLE YOU MENTIONED.

THINKING ABOUT A SMALL BUSINESS.

IT IS, MOHS BARBECUE IN MAINE IS THE OWNER OF TWO STORIES.

HE WAS ABLE TO MAKE HUGE PAYMENTS AND ALSO CROSSTRAINED EMPLOYEES.

HE ALSO SIMPLIFIED THE MENU.

HE DID MANY OTHER THINGS.

THE PAYRAISE IS AN INVESTMENT WITH A SIGNIFICANT RETURN FOR HIS SMALL BUSINESS.

AND HIS EMPLOYEES LIVES CHANGED AND THE OWNER'’S LIFE CHANGED TOO BECAUSE HE DOES NOT HAVE TO WORK 40 OR 60 HOURS A WEEK ANYMORE.

SUE: I ALSO WORK FOR NBC UNIVERSAL.

THEY HAVE PET BEREAVEMENT TIME.

I RECENTLY LOST A PET.

I MARKED PET BEREAVEMENT TIME, THEN USED IT THIS WEEK.

THOSE BENEFITS PLUS FREE COFFEE THAT I GET EVERY MORNING.

THAT MEANS SOMETHING TO ME.

IS THAT ALSO PART OF GOOD JOBS STRATEGY?

ZEYNEP: OF COURSE IT IS.

FOR WORKERS THAT DON'’T MAKE A LIVING WAGE, IF THEY CAN'’T PUT FOOD ON THE TABLE OR A ROOF OVER THEIR HEAD, BENEFITS ARE JUST A BAND-AID.

SUE: WHAT ARE EMPLOYERS AND CEO SAYING TO YOU ABOUT YOUR BOOK AND WORK?

ZEYNEP: AFTER MY FIRST BOOK CAME OUT, MANY COMPANY LEADERS CAME OUT AND SAID, WE WANT TO DO THIS BUT WE ARE SCARED.

WE HAVE DOUBTS.

WHAT CHANGE CAN WE MAKE FIRST?

THIS BOOK IS ON WHY YOU SHOULD DO THIS, HOW TO DO THIS, AND THE TOOLS TO GET STARTED.

SUE: WHAT COMPANIES ARE LEADING?

ZEYNEP: COMPANIES LIKE COSTCO, QUIKTRIP, PROGRESSIVE INSURANCE.

A WIDE RANGE OF INDUSTRIES.

RECENTLY COMPANIES RANGING FROM $60 BILLION RETAILER SAM'’S CLUB TO MOE'’S ORIGINAL BARBECUE AND QUEST DIAGNOSTICS.

SUE: FASCINATING READ.

I APPRECIATE YOU TALKING WITH US.

I HOPE YOU REVOLUTIONIZE THE WAY WE PAY WORKERS.

AT THE BOOK AGAIN IS "THE CASE FOR GOOD JOBS: HOW GREAT COMPANIES BRING DIGNITY, PAY, AND MEANING TO EVERYONE'’S WORK".

THAT'’S IT FOR TONIGHT.

BUT, COME BACK TOMORROW.

THE MASSACHUSETTS LOTTERY IS LOOKING TO COMPETE WITH SPORTS BETTING IN THE STATES.

IS IT DOING MORE HARM THAN GOOD?

WE HEAR FROM TWO EXPERTS THAT ARGUED THE STATE IS PAYING -- PREYING ON LOWER INCOME RESIDENTS.

THAT AND MORE TOMORROW AT 7:00.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

GOOD NIGHT.