Thanks for joinin us with our next edition of OTR with Democratic and Liberal House member Representative Jason Morgan from Ann Arbor.

Our lead story, who will be the next governor candidate.

On the OTR panel, Lauren Gibbons and Jonathan Oosting sit in with us as we get the inside out.

Off the Record.

Production of Off the Record is made possible, in part by Martin Waymrie, a full servic strategic communications agency, partnering with clients through public relations, digital marketing and public policy engagement.

Learn more at MartinWaymire.com And now this edition of Off the Record with Tim Skubick.

Thank you very much.

Welcome to Studio C and another edition of Off the Record.

You know what?

I'm a little tired of the U.S. Senate race.

I'm a little tired of control of the House.

Let's do something completely different.

Who's running for governor?

Governor Gretchen Whitmer cannot run again.

So who might run on the Democratic side?

Detroit Mayor Mike Duggan, Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson, Lieutenant Governor Garlin Gilchrist, the second, Oakland County Senator Mallory McMorrow and Genesee County Sheriff Chris Swanson.

is very interesting.

On the Republican side, former candidates for Governo Kevin Rinke and Perry Johnson.

I suspect both of them.

Have a lot of money.

They've both expresse an interest.

In running before.

And I suspect that both probably will Run again.

From West Michigan.

A new name on the list is Senator Aric Nesbitt, the Senate minority leader.

His name is in play.

I think that Nesbitt would be a strong candidate as well.

He'd have to raise the money, since Detroit is sometimes not held in high regard in outstate Michigan the popular wisdom is a Detroit mayor would have tough sledding to get the governor's job.

Mr. Mitchell thinks just the contrary about Mr. Duggan.

Mike Duggan has a great chance if he decides to take on Jocelyn Benson.

You might be asking at this point why all this chatter about the next governor, which is two years down the road?

Mr. Mitchell suggests you have to start now because that race will start the day after the next coming election for President.

You have to be really hitting the ground running.

Whether you announced or not, but you've got to be hitting the ground running.

the day after the 2024 election.

These days, the amount of money that has to be raised is enormous.

If you'd like to be sitting in that chair in two years and your name was not on this list, call collect, You like that one?

Yeah call collect, you cant find my number.

So what do yo what do you make of this thing?

Actually, this is going on.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And they're making our policy conference.

Jonathan and I actually did a story kind o about some of the gamesmanship that was happening behind the scenes.

You saw a lot of those names at the conference.

Wait wait let me interrupt.

One name was left out.

Who is it?

Well, none of the republican, Mark Hackel.

Mark Hackel.

Sure.

I apologize.

Hackel Yes.

Every year around this time, he thinks about running.

Well, probably in my subconscious.

I knew he'd never run and never get the nomination, so I left it out.

But I interrupted.

I'm sorry.

Oh, no, that's okay.

And that was important to mention, because he did make that a little bit of news there.

But yeah, so there was a lot of gamesmanship happening.

A lot of those names were at the conference.

They were making press conferences, speech is trying to, you know, shake hands end to end, get their names out there.

And I think you're right in the sense that this is somethin that kind of has to happen now.

It is a deep bench, especially on the Democratic side.

And if they want to, you know, edge their way in and try to get an early lead, it's time to start having those conversations.

Yeah, Democrats have done a really good job in some of these high profile top of the ticket elections in recent years and sort of clearing the field for a preferred candidate.

It doesn't seem like we're heading in that direction this year.

There are so many, you know, high profile.

I mean, the lieutenant governor, the secretary of state, the mayor of Detroit, these are big names who are all competing and seemingly competing.

I mean, to Lauren's point, I'm Mackinaw.

Mayor Duggan usually give a very Detroit specific speech.

This this this year it was what what the state can lear about some efforts in Detroit.

You know very.

Different.

He had a vision.

Different framing.

Of course we, Lauren asked Secretary Benson if she was interested.

And she said, well, you know, I'll talk about that later, but I am interested in these things that have nothing to do with my job as secretary of state, you know, other policies outside of that role.

So all of those people, she has to be the most careful because she's got t do a good job on this election.

Okay.

That will be her audition.

If something goes wrong on this thing, she can kiss being governor goodbye.

And I think she knows that.

And so she's playing it very close to it.

But look at it.

She wants to be governor.

Don't we agree on that?

Yeah, I certainly think there's some interest.

There it is.

She's she's made that pretty clear.

But it's very at this point.

Yes.

The election she's got to get through the election.

That was that was what she told me.

She's like I am focused on 202 because if if that doesn't work for whatever reason or if it runs into some of those problems that we saw in 2020, that that eats up a lot of time that she could be spending on other pursuits.

Let's also not forget that last time out before Gretchen Whitmer ran, Mike Duggan was in the contest almost.

Do you remember that?

And she was not too happy about that.

And he was sort of making noises.

Sure.

Yeah.

I think, you know, Duggan ha thought about this for a while.

And, you know, to Steve Mitchell's point, there, I mean, look at, you know we're taping this on Friday or last night, Mayor Duggan, front row for the grand openin of the Michigan Central Station, this huge symbol of Detroit's comeback.

I mean, whether Detroi is popular with outstate folks, I think a lot of people see Mike Duggan as somebody who came i and helped turn around the ship.

So I think he's got a pretty strong case if he does decide to run.

Especially if Joe Biden becomes president again.

Yeah, and they are.

I mean, Mayor Duggan has worked closely with Joe Biden and they are allies.

You know, obviously, Whitmer is as well, and Gilchrist, therefore.

But yeah, Mayor Duggan, I think probably has a line to the president.

The Freep had a story earlier this week that Gilchrist migh be looking at Mayor of Detroit.

You know, that's a possibility too, and I think that will be really interesting as well.

If if Mayor Duggan decides to vacate that, they're going to be so many names that we start looking at like who might vie to take that place, That's a pretty, you know, enviable positio for a lot of these city council members, for these state reps in the Detroit area.

You know, that's a job that's very high profile.

And, you know, as as Jonathan mentioned, you know, it's a good time to be mayor of Detroit.

It's it's they had the draft they have the Michigan Central.

But a lot of eyes are on Detroit nationally is, as you know, just sort of a symbol of look at this like Detroit is is making progress.

So it's a it's a very interesting position.

And if Mayor Duggan decides to pursue higher office, you know, there's going to be a lot of names in there.

We'll see how 2024 goes and what the political climate is heading into the gubernatorial election cycle.

But I think it is notable that we're talking about this deep bench for Democrats and Republicans don't have that right now.

Some of the candidate you mentioned in the intro Tim: Kevin Rinke, Perry Johnson, those folks have money.

If they decide to run, they can fund the campaign.

But they've also ran befor and failed for various reasons.

Well Johnson, he's got a good excuse.

He was unswaddled by some perks.

Happened with his presidential election, too.

You know, that was all about running for governor.

Sure.

Well, I thought it was all about running for Senate and then he didn't do that.

So, you know, Perry Johnson obviously wants to do do something for sure.

I mean, Ari Nesbitt is an interesting name.

He actually has an, you know, a track record as an elected official.

But it's a tougher proposition right now, I think, for Republicans to want to run because you've got so many different currents running through that party right now.

You need a pretty unique candidate who's going to be able to harness the power of the grassroots, the Trump coalition, the MAGA movement, but also appeal to some, some of the traditional donors that have funded successful Republican campaigns in the state.

Democrats don't have those same issues right now.

That's not to say the climate is going to favor Democrats, but in terms of the rosters right now, Republicans have a tougher job.

That is a tough needle to thread.

It really is.

How do you walk that line and appease the Trump people and also bring the moderates what's left of the moderates in the party into the fold?

I think there's a lot of people are watching to see if Mike Rogers can be successful with that.

He has the establishment backing.

He has the Trump endorsement.

He is trying to walk that line.

Will he be successful?

I guess we'll see, you know, in the primary and then off and then if he moves on to the general as well.

But that that's somethin that he is testing the waters on right now.

And I think if he is successful in that endeavor, perhaps others will start thinking about it.

Mr. Mitchell made the point that we didn't have in that piece that the minority of the leadership position in the Senate was a launching pad for a guy by the name of John Engler, who did become governor.

I think somebody in town might say, we know John Engler and Aric Nesbitt is not John Engler.

Yeah, I mean, John Engler was a political force.

Senator Nesbitt, of course, has risen the ranks in the Republican Party.

He is the top ranking Republican in the state legislature right now.

You know, we live in a different political climate where cutting deals acros the aisle, it's not as popular as it once were.

Or once was.

The minority position doesn't have quite as much influence.

You could argue, even thoug it only is a two seat minority.

So, yeah, I mean, he's certainly an interesting candidate.

He's, you know, I don't think, super well-know outside of southwest Michigan.

So he'd have a lot of work to do.

But he's got to raise the money.

He's got to raise the money.

And he also said if I read the story correctly, that he has to check with his wife first.

So stay tuned on that one.

Let's go back to the Hackel thing for a second.

We sort of laughed about this but he does have a track record of talking about running for governor but never pulling the trigger.

Yeah, that's true.

And I think he you know, he is he's always been interested in it, but he has admitted that he may not be Democrats first choice because he has occasionally you know, broken rank with the Democratic establishment on some pretty key issues.

I mean.

Like not endorsing Joe Biden.

Not endorsing Joe Biden.

I think I think, Talk about breaking ranks.

Right.

Right.

So, you know, his some of his criticisms of the party could potentially hinder an any gubernatorial aspirations.

Yeah I talked to Hackel on the island and he's well aware of those issues.

I mean, his sellin point to the broader electorate is that, as he puts it, I stand in the aisle.

I don't have cross the isle.

Exactly.

That I am standing in the isle.

And hes right.

That said, it's tougher to get through a primary.

It's tougher to get the backing of a political machine if you are not seen as a player in that, you know, apparatus.

Somebody plays nic in that apparatus, you can say.

So, you know, well, he might have an appeal in a general election.

His, you know, challenge would be to get through a primary and actually be a nominee for the Democratic Party.

Well, in his case, wouldn' you think the more the merrier in a primary, a better chance for a guy who is not right down the mainstream has, everybody else divides up that side of the vote, and he can appeal to independents and alike?

Yay?

Nay?

Yeah, I think that's true.

And he also represents a really interesting constituency in Macomb County.

It's very populous county, always a swing county.

So he kind of, you know, has has navigated the waters of a very swing district or.

County.

Tim it would be Rick Snyder in 2010.

You know, the the seemingly political moderate in the in the field who because it was so fractured with bigger names, managed to put together a winning campaign.

With 30% of the vote, which last time I checked, was not a majority.

All right.

Let's bring in our guest today to talk about budget and other related issues.

Representative.

Representative, welcome to Off the Record.

It's good to see you from Ann Arbor.

Yes.

How do you like being in East Lansing?

You know, I come here when I need to.

And this is one of those occasions.

Let's start with you're trying to reinvent the way that we spend money to attract jobs.

Are you and the governor at odds?

You know, I don't know that.

I wouldn't say that we are at odds.

Has she signed off on what you want to do?

Well, let me tell you this one.

Let me tell you what we're putting forward.

We are putting forward a truly comprehensive and holistic strategy for economic development, something that we've never seen before.

It pulls together all of the critical elements that we've been talking about over the last couple of years transit, housing, job creation and growth, reinvesting in families, community revitalization.

This is something that I really do feel is a comprehensive consensus approach to what we're lookin at around economic development.

I think the something that ultimately everyone will get behind and I think we're going to be really happy that it.

She has not signed off.

I will say this.

I thin I think that's a good question.

Why are you laughing?

You know I think that's a great question.

I think that we've had a lot of conversations, and I would argue that' probably the the biggest issue that we've talked about in my time as a legislator.

And I laughe because it's also very exciting.

The work that we are doing around economic development isn't just about the the old school traditional approach to economic development.

We're trying to actually grow our state, gro our population, and chart a path that isn't just a one year or a two year plan.

This is a ten year plan.

We want to make sure that we are creating a state that looks different than it looks today in a really positive way that people actually want to move here.

They want to invest and they want to raise families here.

So I think that's something that everybody will eventually and ultimately get behind.

But at this point in the process, we're putting together this bold idea.

We've put it ou there, we're talking about it, and we're excited to see what people.

She doesn't want it.

It's dead.

You know I think that's a fine question, but I think that we've had I think I've seen really good conversations around economic development here in Michigan.

I think if you listen to what the population commission talked about, if you look at what the governor has talked about the last couple of years around job growth and creation of jobs, if you look at wha we've talked about in the House, the things that we care about around transit and housing, I think you're seeing all of those ideas come together in this package that I would I would note has a wild amount of support.

And Representative, Tim mentioned maybe the governor isn't fully on board with this yet, but at the same time, her SOAR program, this mega incentive deal that funds large scale business incentives is only funded for one more year.

I believe she doesn't know if she'll have a Democratic legislature next year.

So she wants to exten this program, I assume, before the year is done.

So don't you have a negotiating position there?

Would you be comfortable simply voting for more funding for SOAR for five more years?

Would you do that?

I think that's fine question.

I think that.

Would you do it?

I guess let me say this.

I think this program has been a strategy for the last couple of years that has resulted in job growth and creation.

What I would like to see long term, though, is a broader, more comprehensive strategy.

It seems clear to a lot of u that we will not grow our state without housing and transit and in revitalizing our communities.

So I think those have to be an important part of this.

And I don't see this as an adversarial conversation to anyone.

I really see it as a productive growth and the conversations that have been happening.

Senator Rick Morrow, for example, testified in committee with me this week right alongside me.

We've had great conversations about the work that she has done in the Senate and that plan that was passed out of the Senate as a whole.

This builds upon that work.

That work itself builds upon the work that the governor put forward of creating this program in the first place.

So I think you're ultimately seeing a continuation of work as opposed to something brand new out of left field or anything like that.

I think this is a really positive consensus approach that we can all get behind.

How do you get the business community on board with this?

I think there's there's some that are concerned and perhaps the governor as well that, you know, includes putting all of these additional requirement to invest in a lot of the things that you've mentioned, you know, could could steer people away from looking at Michigan and look to states with other less states with less strings attached.

Yeah, thank you for asking that.

That's actually a really exciting question because we have a lot of the business community on board with this idea so that something because they see the business community sees that this is important to have a comprehensive long term and holistic strategy for a lot of our businesses throughout our state.

One of the number one challenges that their employees are facing is having enough housin and being able to get to work.

So as we create these jobs, as we bring businesses here, we have to have somewhere for folks to live.

They have to be able to get to work.

They have to have really great communities that they can raise families in.

So I think they're actually really receptive and open to this idea.

And in our almost 100 list of card that were submitted this week, we have folks from Travers City, the Southeast, Michigan, the Grand Rapids to the Upper Peninsula, all on board business, labor, the environmental community.

How often do you have something that has that broad of a coalition of support here in our state?Representative there's a subplot to this story, and it's emerging here clearly, progressives in the Michigan House want to move in a different direction than the traditional legislative process run by governors, run by big businesses.

Am I not correct?

I don't think you are, Tim.

And I only say that because of this.

I, so I've served in local government for six years before this.

As a county commissioner, I served as chair of a county commission.

And the approach that I took coming in is the approach that I wis all government operated under.

We were collaborative, we were inclusive.

We listened to everybody's ideas and we put forward ideas and proposals.

They were the culmination of those conversations and those ideas.

I know it's maybe a little idealistic, but I think that' how all government should work.

We should have bipartisan conversations.

We should have inclusive conversations that pull everyone at the to the table.

And I think that's what we'r trying to do with this proposal.

It's not, you know, what the House or Senate or governor want as these separate ideas.

What we've put forward, we think is is kind of the the ideal plan that is comprehensive and pulls all of those great ideas together in a really positive and constructive way.

But by the same token, ther has been a rubbing of the nerves here in the Hous caucus between the progressives and the speaker when it comes to the budget.

Am I right on that one?

You know I think that's a good question.

I think in any caucus you're going to have differences in key priorities and ideas.

I think I've been described as somewhat progressive.

I represent Ann Arbor, but most folks don't realiz I grew up in northern Michigan.

My first boss was Congressman Bart Stupak in the Upper Peninsula.

I've never necessarily describe myself as as just solidly progressive in that sense but I've described myself always as as a pragmatic progressive.

But are you... Progressive values, but I want to get things done at the end of the day and be constructive and work with everyone.

That's the approach.

And are you willing to say to the speaker, I'm not going to vote for your budget until I get some of these things that I want to get done?

Are you willing to say that?

I think it'd be too soon to say that.

And I and I don't think that's ever anything that I would want to happen.

The chatter is out there, though, right?

You know, every member has different ideas.

But I guess here's what I would say.

I'm really focused on this package because I think it is that thing that can bring everyone together.

And I think this is the package that is holistic, that brings togethe housing, transit, job creation.

Seriously all of the things that everybody is talking about wanting all in one package.

So that's where I'm really focused on this.

I think some of the internal politics have actually been really positive as we've been working together on this package.

And so it's it's a truly rare and exciting thing where you have, quote unquote, more progressive members as well as folks from all parts of the state.

That doesn't happen very often.

This is really exciting.

Does it make it more complicated, though, for this to be happening in an election year when it's such a close majority?

You really need some of that buy in.

You know, how how are yo threading that needle between, you know, some of the progressive concerns about just, you know, offering businesses taxpayer dollars versus, you know, the the needs of, you know, th business community and want it.

How do you balance those kind of opposite poles?

Yeah.

Well, I think this is you know, I don't I truly don' listen to idealistic here, but I think this really is the the piece that pull all those those poles together.

My hope is that this that the votes and the support for this will be as bipartisan as the huge coalitions supporting it.

That is my hope at the end of the day.

So I may be a Democrat from Ann Arbor, but I care about our entire state.

I care about the U.P.

and rural Michigan.

And that's why we've put things in this package that really help those areas connect people with jobs as well.

So I think that you're going t see hopefully a lot of support.

We have to do our job and earn the votes of every one of our colleagues, or at least a majority of our colleagues.

But I think that we've really put something together that that is that rare and unique unified approach.

You know, another area where we saw a little bit of a stress point between so-called progressive and more traditional Democrats in the legislature last year was on personal financia disclosure or ethics writ large.

Ultimately, the governor and the speaker were not willing to sign, it seems, a more advance or a more aggressive form of ethical disclosure that that you and some colleagues were pushing for.

Is there any talk about going any further?

There were promises at the time that we'll revisit this.

And secondly, on that note, what about public records request?

What about for you?

I'm old enough to remember when Democrats were in the minority and complained that Republicans were not doing these things.

Democrats are in the majority now and they're not doing these things.

Where do those efforts stand?

You know, that's a great question.

As as you know, I've always been a huge fan of transparency, ethics reform, better government and all of these things, because I think it leads to better public policy.

At the end of the day, that's more focused on people and what they need.

I'd like t see all of these things happen that you mentioned, FOIA and stronger disclosure requirements and some of those things.

There are still going to be a lot of things that we want to get done that we just don't have the time or the ability to get done in before the end of the summer or the end of the year.

I think you'll see a lot of conversations come back in the fall after the election.

But frankly, I think we need more than one term with a Democratic trifecta to get a lot of these things done.

I push har every single day to have us pass the best policy that we can and to do as much as we can.

But I have also learned that with 56 members and in a one seat majority, you have to have everyone on board.

And there's always som challenge to every single issue.

It can be as simpl as naming a road, it seems like.

And you will have folk who who will find some concern that we've got to address and work there.

So to that point, though, the FOIA bills have passed the House unanimously the last several sessions, like what's stopping Democrats from doing it now?

So that I don't know.

I'd be happy to see it.

I'd love to vote on it, but I think that's that's a questio that's probably above my head.

So what is more important?

Maintaining control of the House or moving on these issues which benefit the entire state of Michigan?

Well I think that's a great question.

I think the answer is both.

I think you you maintain the majority by doing things that people want to see and that they like and.

People in the caucus see, we can't have both if we're taking votes on controversial issues that could cost us votes back home.

You've heard that?

Yeah, I've heard that.

And you don't believe it?

Well, I think there are some issues that, you know, take take a little bit more time to get this fought for.

But but I think there are still a lot of things that we could do tha would have broad public support.

And you're going to be stuc doing this stuff in lame duck.

Be honest.

I think a lot of things will will hopefully happen in lame duck.

As I said, my big priority i getting as much done as we can.

I think that's how we maintain the majority.

I think that's how we get people excited to turn out and vote.

And I think we have a 40 years of work to do.

We've done a heck of a lot of i this last year and a half, but I still want to get more done as much as we can.

Stay tuned.

Thank you for being on the program.

Also, thanks to our panel.

See more Off the record Right here next week.

Production of Off the Record is made possible in part by Martin Waymire, a full servic strategic communications agency partnering with clients through public relations, digital marketing and public policy engagement.

Learn more at MartinWaymire.com.

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