>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON": HE'S BEEN MOSTLY OUT OF SIGHT, BUT NOT OUT OF MIND; AND TRY AS WE MIGHT TO LEAVE DONALD TRUMP IN THE REARVIEW MIRROR DOESN'T MEAN WE SHOULD.

A NEW PROJECT FROM "THE BOSTON GLOBE" EDITORIAL BOARD EXPLORES THE WAYS THE EX-PRESIDENT CHIPPED AWAY AT AMERICAN DEMOCRACY -- HOW TO PREVENT THE RISE OF ANOTHER AMERICAN TYRANT.

THEN, LATER, FORMER CONGRESSIONAL CANDIDATE JESSE MERMELL AND ATTORNEY ROSINA LUCIBELLO SHARE MORE THAN JUST A FRIENDSHIP; THEY NOW SHARE A KIDNEY, TOO.

THEY JOIN ME ON MERMELL'S LIFE-SAVING DECISION.

AND, FINALLY, THE MAN BEHIND THE "PAPA SWAN" PHOTO.

>>> FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE, IT'S BEEN A RELIEF NOT TO HAVE TO HEAR ABOUT AND FROM THE FORMER PRESIDENT 24/7.

BUT WHILE THE MAN IS LONG GONE FROM 1600 PENNSYLVANIA AVENUE, THE DAMAGE HE DID AND THE WEAKNESSES HE EXPLOITED REMAIN.

SO THIS DETOUR BACK INTO THE TRUMP ERA.

BUT AS A NEW PROJECT FROM "THE BOSTON GLOBE" EDITORIAL BOARD ARGUES, THE LONGER HE ESCAPES CONSEQUENCES, THE WEAKER AMERICAN DEMOCRACY BECOMES FOR THE NEXT WOULD-BE DICTATOR OR TRUMP HIMSELF, IF HE WINS IN 2024.

THE PROJECT IS CALLED "FUTURE-PROOFING THE PRESIDENCY," AND IN IT THE EDITORIAL BOARD LAYS OUT THE WAYS HE FLOUTED DEMOCRACY AND WHAT GUARDRAILS NEED TO BE CONSTRUCTED TO PROTECT IT, WRITING: "BY MAKING AN EXAMPLE OF TRUMP AND HOLDING HIM ACCOUNTABLE, THE COUNTRY CAN PROTECT ITSELF AGAINST FUTURE AND POTENTIALLY FAR MORE DEVASTATING PRESIDENTIAL CORRUPTION AND MISCONDUCT.

THE NATION CAN, AND MUST, PREVENT THE RISE OF AN AMERICAN TYRANT."

I'M JOINED BY "GLOBE" EDITORIAL PAGE EDITOR BINA VENKATARAMAN.

>> Braude: BINA, WELCOME AND CONGRATULATIONS.

IT IS QUITE A PIECE OF WORK.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>> Braude: A PLEASURE.

WAS THERE ONE THING THAT INSPIRED THIS PROJECT NOW, IN PARTICULAR?

>> WELL, IT IS REALLY THE RECORDS OF THE PAST FOUR YEARS, WHAT WE'VE SEEN.

I THINK NOW THAT WE HAVE A LITTLE BIT OF DISTANCE FROM THE TRUMP PRESIDENCY, AND PEOPLE ARE REALLY -- WOULD LIKE TO FORGET THIS CHAPTER OF OUR HISTORY, IT IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN EVER THAT WE DO WHAT WE CAN TO KEEP OUR DEMOCRACY, THAT WE RECOGNIZE WHAT DONALD TRUMP DID WAS NOT JUST SPECIFIC ABUSES OF POWER, BUT REALLY LEAVING A TREASURE MAP FOR FUTURE LEADERS TO EXPLOIT.

UNLESS WE SHORE IT UP, REALLY EXPOSING THAT OUR INSTITUTIONS ARE NOT CAPABLE AGAINST CHECKING AGAINST THE ABUSES OF POWER.

>> Braude: LET'S GO THROUGH THE FIVE AREAS OF THE TREASURE MAP.

ONE BY ONE.

WHO OWNS THE PRESIDENT?

REQUIRING FUTURE PRESIDENTS TO DIVEST THEMSELVES OF ASSETS, AND TO PUBLICLY REPLACE THEIR TAX RETURNS.

EVERYBODY I ASSUME KNOWS THAT RELEASING YOUR TAX RETURNS WAS THE NORM, NOT THE LAW, A NORM VIOLATED BY TRUMP.

BUT AS YOU MENTION IN YOUR OWN EDITORIAL, THE "NEW YORK TIMES" ESSENTIALLY RELEASED HIS TAX RETURNS, AND 74 MILLION PEOPLE DIDN'T GIVE A DAM.

SO WHY EVEN GO TO THE TROUBLE?

>> WELL, THINK ABOUT THE TIMING OF THAT THERE WAS A STAGE IN THE REPUBLICAN PRIMARIES LEADING UP TO 2016, HAD YOU KNOWN THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN DEBT, YOU MIGHT HAVE SEEN HIS OPPONENTS IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY USE THAT AS AMMUNITION AGAINST HIM BECAUSE THIS NARRATIVE HE WAS A SUCCESSFUL BUSINESSMAN WAS PART OF THE TRUMP PERSONA.

SO THERE IS SOMETHING TO THAT.

I'M NOT SAYING IT WOULD SOLVE ALL OF THE PROBLEMS, BUT IT WOULD DO A LOT MORE TO GIVING TRANSPARENCY TO THOSE VOTERS WHO DO CARE.

>> Braude: AND NOT RADICAL.

LET'S MOVE TO AN ASSORTED FAMILY AFFAIR.

MAKING ANTI-NEPOTISM LAWS FOR THE PRESIDENT AND VICE PRESIDENT.

YOU WANT TO MAKE THAT CERTAIN.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IVANKA TRUMP AND JARED KUSHNER, ABSOLUTELY NO EXPERIENCE, BUT IT IS LESS ABOUT THEM AND MORE, I ASSUME, ABOUT PEOPLE RELATED TO THE PRESIDENT HAVING GREATER LOYALTY TO HIM OR HER THAN TO THE COUNTRY.

YES?

>> IT IS ABOUT THAT, AND ALSO ABOUT USING THE OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENCY TO ENRICH THE FAMILY OF THE PRESIDENCY, WHICH HAPPENED IN THE CASE OF IVANKA TRUMP AND JARED KUSHNER.

>> Braude: TO THE TUNE OF HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS DURING THESE FOUR YEARS, AM I NOT RIGHT?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

AND MORE INFORMAL ASPECTS OF MAKING QUID PRO QUO TO VISA COMPANIES THAT INVESTED IN THEIR COMPANIES.

>> Braude: HEY, THEY'VE GOT TO FEED THE KIDS.

WHAT CAN I TELL YOU.

LET'S MOVE TO THE NEXT AREA, WHICH IS A BIG ONE: HIDING THE EVIDENCE.

STRENGTHENING WHISTLE-BLOWER PROTECTIONS, STRENGTHENING CONGRESSIONAL OVERSIGHT.

BUT I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE REVISITING A POLICY SO THAT A SITTING PRESIDENCY CAN BE INDICTED.

WE KNOW THEY HAVE A MEMORANDUM THAT SAYS A SITTING PRESIDENT CAN'T BE INDICTED, NOT A LAW.

OBVIOUSLY IT IS WAS CAUSED ROERT MUELLER TO MEEKLY END HIS REPORT LAYING OUT SERIOUS CASE OF OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE, BUT DOING ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT IT.

THIS ONE COULD BE DONE WITH A STROKE OF THE PEN BY THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, CORRECT?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THAT POLICY, DATING BACK TO THE 1970s0s DOES NOT HAVE TO BE THE LAW OF THE LAND.

THE BOARD'S POSITION IS YOU DON'T NEED TO HAVE A FULL TRIAL OF A PRESIDENT, BUT INDICTING A PRESIDENT BASED ON CRIMINAL CHARGES, WHICH COULD HAVE BEEN DONE WITH THE MUELLER INVESTIGATION, INTO THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN'S TIES INTO RUSSIAN INTERFERENCE, THAT COULD BE AT LEAST BE A DETERRENT FOR PRESIDENTS USING THE OFFICE TO COMMIT CRIME.

>> Braude: IS THERE ANY INDICATION THAT JOE BIDEN OR MERRICK GARLAND HAVE ANY INTENTION OF DOING THIS?

>> WE HOPE SO.

I DON'T THINK THERE HAS BEEN AN OFFICIAL STATEMENT FROM THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION ON THIS YET.

>> Braude: WHEN PEOPLE ARE READING YOUR THING -- BEFORE WE GET TO THE NEXT AREA, THIS IS AN AREA THAT UNILATERALLY CAN BE DONE BY THE ATTORNEY GENERAL, OBVIOUSLY THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE.

MUCH OF THE REST ON YOUR LIST, WHAT WE TALKED ABOUT SO FAR IN PARTICULAR, REQUIRES SOME LEVEL OF BIPARTISANSHIP, WHICH WE DON'T HAVE, SORT OF IRONICALLY BECAUSE OF THE TYRANT WHO INSPIRED YOUR PROJECT, CREATING SUCH FEAR IN HIS FOLLOWERS.

SO IS THERE A LITTLE BIT OF WHEEL-SPINNING, DO YOU WORRY, IN YOUR PROPOSALS THAT REQUIRE LEGISLATIVE ACTION?

>> THESE PROPOSALS, WHILE THEY ARE WEAKNESSES THAT HAVE BEEN EXPOSED BY DONALD TRUMP, NEED NOT BE POLITICAL.

THEY ARE PROPOSALS ABOUT BUILDING ON WHAT THE FOUNDERS OF AMERICAN DEMOCRACY DID.

WE FOUND NOT STRONG ENOUGH TO WITHHOLD AND WITHSTAND AGAINST A CORRUPT LEADER IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

THE NEXT WOULD-BE DICTATOR WHO WANTS TO CEASE CONTROL IN THE WHITE HOUSE COULD BE A DEMOCRAT.

THEY SHOULD HAVE BIPARTISAN SUPPORT.

WILL THEY HAVE BIPARTISAN SUPPORT IN THE WAKE OF THE TRUMP PRESIDENCY, OR WILL PEOPLE LOOK AT THEM AS SPECIFIC REFORMS DIRECTED JUST AT ONE PRESIDENT, THAT'S UNCLEAR.

THIS IS ABOUT A NEW SORT OF FOUNDATIONAL THINKING ABOUT WHAT CAN PROTECT THE INTEGRITY OF OUR DEMOCRACY.

>> Braude: I'M GOING TO SKIP OVER THE NEXT YEAR, BUT MENTION REWARDS FOR DOING THE PRESIDENT'S' BIDDING, CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT CONSTRAINING THE PARDON POWER, WHICH IS OBVIOUSLY ONE OF THE BROADEST POWERS ANY PRESIDENT HAS, PAUL MANAFORT, MICHAEL FLYNN, ETC -- AGAIN, THIS WOULD, VERY, VERY BRIEFLY, JUST NARROW THAT POWER SO THAT WHAT -- WHO COULD NOT BE THE RECIPIENT OF A PARDON, IF YOU'RE AMENDMENT WERE TO HAPPEN?

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

THE IDEA WOULD BE YOU DON'T WANT THE PRESIDENT'S CLOSE FAMILY MEMBERS, HIS TOP AIDES, HIS TOP ADVISORS, YOU DON'T WANT THE PRESIDENT BIDEN AND CAMPAIGN CHAIR BEING ELIGIBLE FOR A PARDON.

IT MAKES IT PRONE FOR USING THAT OFFICE TO PARDON PEOPLE WHO COMMIT CRIMES ON BEHALF OF THE PRESIDENT.

>> Braude: LET'S TALK ABOUT THE CASE FOR PROSECUTING TRUMP.

YOU LIST THREE AREAS THAT YOU BELIEVE ARE PROSECUTABLE, EFFORTS TO OVERTURN THE GEORGIA ELECTION RESULTS AND INCITEMENT OF THE INSURRECTION AND JANUARY 6th.

JACK GOLDMAN IS HERE, AND HE CO-WROTE A BOOK WITH A FORMER COUNSEL TO BARACK OBAMA, AND IT IS CALLED "AFTER TRUMP: RECONSTRUCTING THE TRUMP PRESIDENCY."

HE MAKES ONE OF THE CASES AGAINST PROSECUTING -- THIS IS GOLDSMITH -- AGAIN PROSECUTING DONALD TRUMP.

>> THE PROCESS OF DOING THAT WOULD BE NOVEL, ONE ADMINISTRATION INVESTIGATING ANOTHER ONE FOR A PRIOR CRIMINALITY.

IT WOULD MAINTAIN THE CIRCUS GOING ON IN WASHINGTON, AND MAKE IT HARD FOR THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT TO MOVE FORWARD WITH THE APPEARANCE OF IM PARTIALITY.

>> WHAT IS NOVEL IS HAVING A PRESIDENT SITTING IN THE WHITE HOUSE TRYING TO INCITE AN INSURRECTION, AND TRYING TO OVERTURN THE RESULTS OF AN ELECTION IN GEORGE, BY CALLING UP THE SECRETARY AND ASKING HIM -- I DRAW A DIFFERENT CONCLUSION, AND THE BOARD DRAWS A DIFFERENT CONCLUSION, BECAUSE THIS IS UNPRECEDENTED, IT IS SO CLEAR HE HAS CROSSED THE LINE.

IF WE DON'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT, IF DONALD TRUMP GETS AWAY WITH HAVING BROKEN THE LAW FROM THE WHITE HOUSE, HAVING COMMITTED THESE CRIMES, WE'RE SENDING A MESSAGE TO ANY WOULD-BE INHABITANTS OF THE WHITE HOUSE THAT THEY ARE ABOVE THE LAW, THAT THEY ARE ABLE TO COMMIT SUCH CRIMES, AND THEY'RE ABLE TO DESTROY OUR DEMOCRACY AND NOT FACE CONSEQUENCES.

>> Braude: WHY ISN'T IMPEACHMENT ENOUGH?

THE FACT THAT THE SENATE CHOSE NOT TO CONVICT, THAT'S THEIR BUSINESS.

WHY DO YOU NEED A PROSECUTION WHEN YOU HAVE A CONSTITUTIONAL POWER THAT ACTUALLY WAS USED TWICE BY THIS CONGRESS -- THAT CONGRESS.

>> ABSOLUTELY TRUE.

PART OF WHAT WE'VE SEEN FROM CONGRESS' FAILURE TO REMOVE THE PRESIDENT FOR BOTH OF HIS IMPEACHMENTS IS THAT THAT TOOL IS ACTUALLY WEAKER THAN THE FOUNDERS THOUGHT AND WE THOUGHT.

IF YOU HAVE A PRESIDENT AND A POLITICAL PARTY IN POWER IN THE SENATE THAT IS ABOVE REPROACH, ABOVE, YOU KNOW, BASICALLY IN ORDER TO SHAME AND THE PRINCIPLES OF OUR DEMOCRACY, THAT THAT TOOL DOESN'T ACTUALLY QUITE WORK BECAUSE IT IS A POLITICAL PROCESS, IMPEACHMENT IS A POLITICAL PROCESS.

AND YOU WOULD HOPE THAT A PROSECUTION WITH A FAIR TRIAL, WHICH SHOULD BE AN A-POLITICAL TRIAL, AN IMPARTIAL TRIAL, A TRIAL BASED ON EVIDENCE, COULD DRAW CONCLUSIONS AND BE A BETTER DETERRENT TO FUTURE ABUSES OF POWER.

>> Braude: BEFORE YOU GO, CAN I TAKE LIBERTY, SINCE I HAVE THE EDITORIAL PAGE EDITOR HERE, CAN I FILE A VERBAL LETTER TO THE EDITOR IN RESPONSE TO YOUR PROJECT.

>> SURE.

>> Braude: THE LETTER WOULD SAY SOMETHING LIKE THE ONLY THING WORSE THAN A TYRANT IN THE PRESIDENCY IS A TYRANT WHO SUFFERS FROM SERIOUS MENTAL ILLNESS.

I'M NOT A SHRINK, BUT THERE WAS A BOOK WRITTEN EARLY ON IN THE PRESIDENCY, TALKING ABOUT THE DANGEROUS CASE OF DONALD TRUMP, PEOPLE WHO THINK HE DOES SUFFER FROM MENTAL ILLNESS.

I WOULD MAKE THE CASE THAT A GUY WHO SAYS HE IS GOING TO RETURN TO POWER IN AUGUST IS NOT JUST A DEMOGOGUE, BUT SOMEONE WHO HAS MORE SERIOUS PROBLEMS.

WE USED TO HAVE AT LEAST MEDICAL ANALYSES OR EXAMINATIONS OF MAJOR PARTY CANDIDATES.

HOW ABOUT MEDICAL AND PSYCHOLOGICAL ANALYSIS OF NOT ONLY MAJOR PARTY CANDIDATES, BUT PRESIDENTS OF THE UNITED STATES EVERY YEAR, EVERY TWO YEARS, DONE BY INDEPENDENT ENTITIES, WHICH THEN REPORT, WITHOUT VIOLATING ANY PRIVACY RIGHTS THEIR BASIC FINDINGS TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE?

>> IT IS AN INTERESTING IDEA, BUT YOU PRESUME THAT THE DELUSIONS ARE NOT JUST MANUFACTURED IN ORDER TO RILE PEOPLE UP, THAT THEY ACTUALLY EXIST IN THE PERSON'S MIND -- >> Braude: THEY MIGHT BE.

>> THIS DEBATE CAME UP ON THE EVENS OF JANUARY 6th, WHEN PEOPLE WERE DEBATING ON WHETHER TO USE THE 25th AMENDMENT, CALLING HIM MENTALLY UNFIT BECAUSE OF WHAT HE HAD DONE.

IT IS HARD TO MAKE THE ARGUMENT THAT HE HAD ANY KIND OF REAL ACTUAL MENTAL ILLNESS DRIVING HIM TO DO THAT, RATHER THAN JUST A CRAVEN DESIRE TO STAY IN POWER -- >> Braude: I ONLY HAVE 30 SECONDS.

RATHER THAN DEBATE WHETHER I'M RIGHT OR WRONG ABOUT TRUMP, THERE COULD BE A TYRANT IN THAT OFFICE GOING FORWARD WHO DID SUFFER FROM SERIOUS MENTAL ILLNESS, AND THERE IS NO WAY TO ASSESS IT.

SO GOING FORWARD, DOES IT MAKE SENSE THERE SHOULD BE SOME TRANSPARENCY THERE, QUICKLY IF YOU CAN?

>> I THINK THERE IS A CASE TO BE MADE ABOUT MEDICAL RECORDS BEING CLOSED, BEING HONEST ABOUT THOSE CAPACITIES.

I DON'T THINK THERE IS EVEN A NORM FOR THAT RIGHT NOW.

IT DOES GET YOU INTO A LITTLE BIT OF MERKY TERRAIN BECAUSE IF PEOPLE START DISCLOSING THEIR MEDICAL RECORDS, IF THEY HAVE A HEART CONDITION, SHOULD THEY BE DISQUALIFIED FROM RUNNING THE WHITE HOUSE.

I THINK YOU SHOULD LET THE PUBLIC KNOW.

I THINK WE WANT TO BE CAREFUL ABOUT WHAT PRECEDENT WE WOULD SET FOR HOLDING PUBLIC OFFICE.

>> Braude: BY THE WAY, MY WHOLE LIFE IS SPENT IN MERKY TER TERRAIN.

BINA VENKATARAMAN, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> Braude: THANK YOU.

>> Braude: FOR MORE THAN A DECADE, MY NEXT GUESTS, FORMER CONGRESSIONAL CANDIDATE JESSE MERMELL AND ATTORNEY ROSINA LUCIBELLO, WEREN'T MUCH MORE THAN FRIENDS ON Facebook.

BUT LAST FALL, WHEN JESSE WAS SCROLLING THROUGH HER FEED AND HAPPENED UPON A POST FROM ROSINA, THAT ALL BEGAN TO CHANGE IT WAS TITLED, SIMPLY, "ROSINA NEEDS A KIDNEY," AND LAST MONTH, AFTER A LONG STRETCH OF TESTS AND PREPARATIONS, JESSE GAVE HER ONE.

NOW, AFTER A FEW WEEKS OF RECOVERY, THEY BOTH JOIN ME.

>> Braude: JESSE MERMELL AND ROSINA LUCIBELLO, THANK YOU BOTH FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING US.

>> Braude: ROSINA, HOW DID YOU MEET JESSE?

>> I MET JESSE THROUGH OUR POLITICAL ACTIVISM OVER THE YEARS.

I WAS REMINISCING ABOUT THE FIRST TIME I MET HER, WHICH WAS AT AN EVENT, I WAS IMPRESSED WITH HER AND THAT'S WHY WE KEPT IN TOUCH ALL THESE YEARS.

>> Braude: WHEN I READ IT, I'M ALMOST INCREDULOUS.

YOU GO ON Facebook AND YOU POST "ROSINA NEEDS A KIDNEY."

HOW SICK WERE YOU WHEN YOU POSTED THAT?

>> I WAS PRETTY SICK.

I HAD CHRONIC KIDNEY DISEASE FOR EIGHT YEARS.

IN THE FALL OF 2020 MY CONDITION HAD WORSENED PRETTY QUICKLY.

I KNEW I WAS GOING TO HAVE TO GO ON DIALYSIS, AND I DID SO OF JANUARY OF THIS YEAR.

I WAS ALREADY ON THE TRANSPLANT LIST AT BETH ISRAEL MEDICAL CENTER, BUT I KNEW THAT LOOKING FOR A LIVING KIDNEY DONOR WOULD BE BENEFICIAL FOR MY LONG-TERM SUCCESS.

WHAT DID I HAVE TO LOSE.

SO I PUT IT OUT THERE TO SEE IF ANYBODY WOULD BE INTERESTED.

>> Braude: ENTER JESSE MERMELL.

I READ YOUR RESPONSE TO WHY DID YOU DO THIS, "IT SEEMED LIKE THE OBVIOUS THING TO DO."

WHY WAS IT THE OBVIOUS THING TO DO, JESSE?

>> I WISH I HAD SOME SORT OF POETIC ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION.

ALL I CAN TELL YOU IS THAT SITTING ON THE COUCH SOME TIME LAST FALL, PROBABLY HALLOWEENISH, AND SEEING ROSINA'S POST, AND SHE NEEDED A KIDNEY AND SHE HAS TYPE "A" BLOOD, AND I HAVE TYPE "A" BLOOD AND TYPE "A" PERSONALITY, AND I LOOKED AT IT AND THOUGHT, WELL, THAT'S ME, I GUESS I COULD HELP.

I SORT OF MARINATED ON IT FOR A FEW DAYS AND FILLED OUT THE FORM.

I WISH I COULD TELL YOU THAT THE SKIES PARTED AND A LIGHTNING BOLT HIT ME, IT SEEMED SO OBVIOUS, BUT IT WAS SO MUCH SIMPLER THAN THAT.

>> Braude: SO YOU GIVE HER A CALL -- IS THAT CORRECT -- AND WHAT DID YOU SAY TO THAT?

>> I HAD TOLD HER A LITTLE WAYS INTO THE PROCESS -- BECAUSE IT IS ANONYMOUS, IF YOU WANT IT TO BE -- THAT I WAS PARTICIPATING IN THIS.

SHE WOULD HAVE A TEST, I WOULD HAVE A TEST.

I NEEDED A MAMMOGRAM TO GO THROUGH THIS BECAUSE I JUST TURNED 40, AND ROSINA HELPED ME GET AN APPOINTMENT TO MOVE THE PROCESS ALONG.

IT SORT OF BECAME THIS COLLABORATION.

AND EVENTUALLY THE TRANSPLANT AT BETH ISRAEL HAD APPROVED US, AND MY COORDINATOR CALLED ME AND ASKED IF I WANTED TO BE THE ONE TO CALL ROSINA, AND OF COURSE I SAID YES.

I WAS IN THE LIVING ROOM, PACING BACK AND FORTH, AND ROSINA WAS IN THE PET STORE, AND THE RADIO WAS SO LOUD IN THE BACKGROUND, I HAD TO REPEAT MYSELF A COUPLE OF TIMES.

AND I ASKED HER IF SHE WANTED A KIDNEY.

I WISH I COULD BE MORE POETIC THAN THAT, BUT IT WAS PRETTY STRAIGHTFORWARD.

AND SOON WE WERE BOTH CRYING, HER IN THE PET STORE AND ME IN MY LIVING.

>> Braude: HOW ARE YOU FEELING -- ROSINA, HOW IS YOUR HEALTH?

>> I'M DOING WELL.

MY TRANSPLANT TEAM IS VERY PLEASED WITH MY PROCESS.

TODAY IS EXACTLY THREE WEEKS SINCE OUR SURGERY.

SO ALL IS LOOKING WELL.

I DO HAVE A FULL YEAR AHEAD OF MAKING SURE THAT MY ANTI-REJECTION MEDICATIONS ARE PROPERLY TWEAKED AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

BUT I'M FEELING WONDERFUL, AND I'M FEELING EXTREMELY BLESSED.

>> Braude: AM I TOLD, THERE IS A RUMOR YOU NAMED HER KIDNEY THAT IS NOW YOUR KIDNEY.

IS THAT CORRECT?

>> JESSE'S WONDERFUL MOTHER, JETT MERMELL, SHE CARRIED THAT KIDNEY FOR NINE MONTHS, SO SHE HAD THE HONOR OF NAMING THE KIDNEY RENA, APPROPRIATELY.

>> Braude: AND JESSE, ARE YOU WELL?

>> I AM.

MY SURGERY WAS MUCH LESS INTENSE THAN ROSINA'S, SO I HAVE A SHORTER PATH.

A LITTLE MINOR DISCOMFORT AROUND SOME INCISIONS, AND I'M SLOWLY GETTING MY ENERGY BACK.

BUT I FEEL SO GRATEFUL TO BE ABLE TO DO THIS.

A HUGE SHOUTOUT AT THE TRANSPLANT TIME AT BETH ISRAEL FOR EVERYTHING THEY HAVE DONE FOR BOTH OF US.

I CAN'T SAY ENOUGH THINGS ABOUT PHENOMENAL THEY HAVE BEEN.

>> Braude: ROSINA, HOW WEIRD IS IT TO HAVE A PIECE OF HER BODY IN YOURS?

I CAN'T GET MY HEAD AROUND THAT AT ALL.

>> THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.

AT FIRST IT IS A LITTLE STRANGE TO THINK ABOUT IT.

I GUESS MY THINKING WAS, FIRST, THIS WOMAN HAS GRACIOUSLY GIVEN ME A PIECE OF HER BODY TO HELP ME LIVE A SECOND LIFE.

THIS IS ESSENTIALLY WHAT JESSE HAS GIVEN ME, IS ANOTHER LIFE, AND A NEW, WONDERFUL LIFE.

BUT ONCE IT'S IN THERE AND IT'S WORKING, YOU JUST THINK OF IT AS A TREMENDOUS GIFT AND A BLESSING.

AND SO THE WEIRDNESS KIND OF GOES AWAY REALLY QUICK.

>> Braude: AND QUICKLY, JESSE, WHAT DOES IT FEEL LIKE TO HAVE -- I DON'T KNOW IF I SHOULD CALL IT YOUR KIDNEY ANYMORE -- WHAT WAS YOUR KIDNEY IN HER?

>> I CAN'T THINK OF A BETTER PERSON TO CARRY IT FOR THE NEXT MANY, MANY, MANY YEARS.

IT IS A LITTLE WEIRD WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT AT FIRST, BUT THAT GOES AWAY WHEN THE THINK ABOUT THE INCREDIBLE THINGS THAT COME FROM THE GIFT OF DONATION.

I KNOW ROSINA IS GOING TO DO GREAT THINGS WITH RENA.

>> Braude: JESSE, ARE YOU DIFFERENT?

HAS THIS CHANGED YOU IN ANY WAY?

>> I DON'T KNOW THAT I FEEL FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT, BUT I FEEL SO MUCH BETTER EDUCATED ABOUT DONATION, ABOUT HOW THOROUGHLY PREPARED AND THOUGHTFUL IT IS ON BOTH SIDES, THE RECIPIENT AND THE DONOR.

AND I FEEL CHANGED IN MY ADVOCACY AND COMMITMENT TO RAISING AWARENESS ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF DONATION, NOT JUST FOR KIDNEYS BUT FOR SO MANY OTHER ORGANS.

>> Braude: HAS IT CHANGED YOU, OTHER THAN PHYSICALLY, ROSINA?

>> WELL, SURE.

IT IS A TREMENDOUS BLESSING.

AT TIMES IT CAN BE OVERWHELMING.

AND THE ONLY WAY I CAN REALLY PROCESS THIS PROPERLY IS TO GIVE BACK.

AND, LIKE JESSE SAID, ADVOCATE.

WE ALREADY HAVE BEEN RECEIVING MESSAGES FROM PEOPLE ASKING FOR OUR HELP, WHICH IS WONDERFUL.

BUT A LITTLE SIDE NOTE, ONE FUNNY THING THOUGH, IS I HAVE NEVER REALLY BEEN A BIG ICE CREAM PERSON.

BUT EVER SINCE I HAVE JESSE'S KIDNEY, AND AS MANY PEOPLE KNOW, JESSE IS AN ICE CREAM ENTHUSIAST, I HAVE BEEN CRAVING SOME ICE CREAM.

>> Braude: THIS IS ONE OF THE BEST STORIES OF THE YEAR, AND CONGRATULATIONS TO BOTH OF YOU.

IT IS A THRILL TO TALK TO YOU.

AND I'M SO GLAD YOU'RE WELL, ROSINA AND JESSE.

STAY WELL.

>> THANK YOU, JIM.

>> THANKS, JIM.

>> Braude: FOR MORE INFORMATION ON KIDNEY AND OTHER ORGAN DONATIONS, HEAD TO www.donatelife.net.

NEXT UP, BOSTON HAS LONG BEEN HOME TO A GROUP OF FAMOUS DUCKLINGS, BUT NOW A LOCAL FAMILY OF SWANS IS GETTING A WHOLE LOT OF ATTENTION AFTER MATTHEW RAIFMAN SHARED THIS PHOTO OF PAPA SWAN, AS HE'S NOW AFFECTIONATELY KNOWN, CARRYING HIS BABIES -- CYGNETS, THEY'RE CALLED -- ON HIS BACK.

RAIFMAN JOINED ME YESTERDAY TO DISCUSS.

>> Braude: MATTHEW, IT IS GREAT TO MEET YOU.

THANKS SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> Braude: HOW DID YOU FIRST BECOME ACQUAINTED WITH THE SWANS AND THEIR OFFSPRING.

>> I FOLLOWED THE TRAFFIC TRAGIC STORY ABOUT THE MOTHER SWAN, AND I JUST WANTED TO HEAD ON DOWN THERE AND SEE IF I CAN GET SOME LUCK IN TAKING A PHOTO OF THEM.

>> Braude: WHY DID YOU START FOLLOWING IT -- THIS IS EVEN BEFORE THE BIRTH -- WHY DID YOU START FOLLOWING IT?

WHAT DREW YOU TO IT?

>> I THINK WE'RE ALL INTERESTED IN SWANS AND DUCKLINGS AND OTHER WATER FOWL IN BOSTON.

THERE IS A BIGGER STORY, SOMETHING TO BE EXCITED ABOUT, IT IS SPRING AND SUMMER COMING ALONG.

IT HAS BEEN A TOUGH YEAR FOR ME AND MANY OF US WITH COVID.

I WAS LOOKING FOR SOMETHING INSPIRATIONAL TO ENJOY.

>> Braude: BY THE WAY, WHILE YOU SAID THE SADDEST PART OF THE STORY IS THE MOTHER SWAN DIED AND THERE IS NO IDENTIFICATION YET OF THE CAUSE OF DEATH.

SO HOW DID THE PHOTO COME ABOUT?

>> SO I WENT DOWN THERE -- I BIKED, AS I OFTEN DO, ON THE ESPLANADE.

I FOUND THE FAMILY A LITTLE WAYS UP THE RIVER AND STARTED TAKING PHOTOS OF THEM.

AND THEY WERE FINE.

THEY WERE GOOD PHOTOS.

AND THEN I NOTICED THAT THE SWAN WAS MOVING TOWARDS THE LAGOON.

SO I HOPPED ON MY BIKE AND BOOKED IT OVER TO ONE OF THE BRIDGES THAT CROSS OVER FROM THE ESPLANADE.

AND I WAS ABLE TO GET ABOVE THE SWANS FOR THIS UNIQUE PERSPECTIVE.

IT ALL KIND OF CAME TOGETHER.

BUT WHAT IS COOL ABOUT IT, WHEN I WAS PHOTOGRAPHING THEM INITIALLY, ALL OF THE SWANS WERE IN THE WATER.

BUT WHEN I WENT TO LOOK DOWN THE VIEW FINDER AND TAKE THE PHOTO, THESE THREE SWANS, CYGNETS, HAD HOPPED ON PAPA SWAN.

I HAD THIS REALLY EXTRAORDINARY PERSPECTIVE ON WHAT WAS HAPPENING.

I HAD NEVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THAT BEFORE.

IT TENDS TO HAPPEN, APPARENTLY, IN THE SWAN WORLD.

IT JUST WASN'T SOMETHING I WAS FAMILIAR WITH.

>> Braude: YOU ALSO CALLED YOUR WIFE, I READ, IMMEDIATELY AFTER, AND WHAT DID YOU SAY TO HER?

WHAT YOU TOLD HER WAS CORRECT, I BET.

WHAT DID YOU SAY TO HER?

>> I TEXTED MY WIFE AND I SAID, THIS IS PROBABLY THE BEST PHOTO I'VE EVER TAKEN, I WAS ELATED.

EVERYTHING KIND OF PULLED TOGETHER IN THIS ONE SHOT.

>> Braude: I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO DO AFTER THIS, BUT I GUESS YOU HAVE THAT.

I CHECKED THIS OUT AFTER I SAW YOUR PHOTO, AND I FOLLOWED THEM A LITTLE BIT, BUT THERE IS MUCH MORE EQUAL PARENTING IN THE SWAN WORLD GENERALLY THAN THERE IS IN THE HUMAN WORLD, I GUESS YOU PROBABLY KNOW.

ONE OF THE THINGS I LOVED ABOUT WHAT YOU HAVE SAID, AND I KNOW YOU'VE GOT COLOSSAL MEDIA ATTENTION AS YOU WELL-DESERVE, IT IS NOT JUST A BEAUTIFUL STORY ABOUT A FATHER, A GRIEVING FATHER, PROBABLY, TAKING CARE OF HIS KIDS -- HOW WE HUMANIZE THESE THINGS -- BUT YOU TALKED ABOUT IT IS EXTRA SIGNIFICANCE CONSIDERING THE TIME IN WHICH WE ALL WITNESSED THIS.

EXPLAIN WHAT YOU MEANT BY THAT?

>> YEAH, THAT IS EXACTLY RIGHT.

I THINK IT IS NATURAL FOR US TO PER SEWN PERSONIFY IT BECAUSE OF THIS.

WE WERE LOOKING FOR SOMETHING THAT WAS UPLIFTING IN SOCIETY AFTER THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS, BUT NOT SOMETHING THAT WAS A FAIRYTALE.

AND I THINK THAT IS WHAT IS KIND OF UNIQUE ABOUT THIS STORY.

IT IS MELANCHOLY, RIGHT?

THERE IS THIS LOSS AND TRAGEDY IN IT, BUT THERE IS ALSO THIS TRIUMPH AND RESILIENCE WITH THE PAPA SWAN TAKING CARE OF ITS KIN.

I SEE A PARALLEL WITH WHAT WE'RE ALL DEALING WITH AS A SOCIETY IN THAT STORY.

WE HAVE DEALT WITH TRAGEDY, WE'RE DEALING WITH TRAGEDY, AND SOME OF US HAVE LOST LOVED ONES, BUT WE'RE COMING ALONG IN THIS RESILIENT WAY TO RECOVER OUT OF THE COVID PANDEMIC.

>> Braude: SINCE YOU HAD THE COURAGE TO SAY THAT, WHAT I WOULD HAVE BEEN TOO EMBARRASSED TO SAY OTHERWISE, WE MENTIONED YOUR PHOTO ON THE RADIO AND WE GOT A TON OF TWEETS AND E-MAILS FROM PEOPLE SAYING, I'M A FATHER, AND AS A RESULT OF WHAT I SAW THAT FATHER DO, I'M GOING TO BE MORE INTENTIONAL.

I'M GOING TO BE A BETTER FATHER.

AND MY INITIAL REACTION WAS HOW RIDICULOUS UNTIL I THOUGHT ABOUT IT A BIT.

I READ YOU'VE GOT A KID WHO IS A LITTLE UNDER TWO.

HOW IS THIS GOING TO AFFECT YOUR FATHERHOOD, DO YOU THINK, GOING FORWARD.

>> I'D DO HAVE A KID, A TODDLER WHO IS 20 MONTHS OLD.

THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

I AGREE, IT IS KIND OF RIDICULOUS, BUT I'M INSPIRED TO BE A BETTER FATHER AND TO BE A MORE EQUAL PARENT BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN, RIGHT?

AND IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT FOR ME TO FORM THAT RELATIONSHIP WITH MY SON THAT I THINK WE SEE THE PAPA SWAN FORMING WITH HIS CYGNETS.

AND I'LL ALSO NOTE I RECEIVED SOME FEEDBACK FROM PEOPLE WHO HAVE LOST THEIR PARTNERS, AND PARTICULAR HUSBANDS THAT HAVE NOW THEIR PARTNERS AND ARE SINGLE PARENTS, AND I'M SO TOUCHED BY THAT, THAT THIS PHOTO HAS PARTICULARLY RESONATED WITH THAT COMMUNITY OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE GONE THROUGH THIS SUFFERING THEMSELVES AS HUMANS, AND THEY'VE RECOVERED AND ARE DISEELGDEALING WITH THAT RECOVERY AND RESILIENCE AND TRYING TO BE GOOD PARENTS.

>> Braude: UNBELIEVER.

UNBELIEVABLE.

GREAT PHOTOGRAPH.

IT IS A PLEASURE TO MEET YOU.

p>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> Braude: THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT.

WE'LL BE BACK TOMORROW.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND PLEASE STAY SAFE.

♪♪